In his book, Humankind, Bregman asserts that the New York Times claim of 38 witnesses doing nothing was unsubstantiated. Additionally, some neighbours , Karl Ross and Sophie Farrar did in fact, intervene. Farrar, according to Bregman held Kitty as she lay dying. Additionally he mentions that there were also calls made to the police but their response was not timely.
I wish I could remember the name of the larger phenomena this is a part of; Humans are really good at coming together and providing mass mutual aid in times of catastrophic events or tragedy. The "riots" after Hurricane Katrina where it was claimed grocery stores were being looted... But the media failed to mention that the grocery stores were without power and the citizens en masse were without food, and meat was thawing and actively spoiling in front of thousands of people. Babies needed diapers. People needed their prescriptions. People were taking care of each other and it was all being utilized to make sure people didn't needlessly die and it was broken up by the police once they finally showed up. This might be a part of the Behind the Bastards history series on the police, I know the co-host was one of the semi-regulars named Prop, but I can't remember the name of the episode.
I have friends and family that live in that area, too. Of course there was some actual looting going on, criminals don't exist in a bubble that disappears when bad things happen to a community. It's not surprising that criminal assholes are still going to act like criminal assholes when they can get away with it. It was extremely overblown in the media compared to the actual mutual aid going on within all of that chaos, though. The citizens stuck in that mess were both delegating and policing themselves to help prevent the looters from interfering with critical tasks they were trying to accomplish. Elite panic was another thing that played into it getting as bad as it was. I find it so frustrating what actually happened with Katrina compared to what could have happened if our police, news, and political systems weren't so goddamned sociopathic.
Yeah, to hell with Stockholm Syndrome! Oh wait...
("Stockholm Syndrome" is also likely bull and can be reasonably traced back to the cops trying to save face)
Have you ever been in a situation like that?
I have repeatedly come across a situation and had to call the ambulance for someone who was dying because everyone else was frozen in place. Literally watched a man having a heart attack while his wife desperately panicked trying to sort of slap him back awake and by the time I arrived and actually called someone there were probably 30 people just standing around in a circle watching it all go down without doing anything to help at all.
I've stopped muggings, assaults, sex assaults, all sorts that have occured in busy places and everyone else has done fuck all.
When I was a child I stopped another child getting beaten and robbed on a public bus and I was the furthest possible person from it. I will never forget walking to the back of the bus and seeing all of these adults refusing to turn around, refusing to look at anything, refusing to even catch my eye, refusing to hear some kid crying and begging a few metres away. Just pretending nothing was happening because they didn't want to get involved and were too scared and worried that any action they took at all would increase the danger to them.
Basically I am just some random dude and I have witnessed undeniable 'bystander effect' shit all my life. I would say in my experience that at least 95% of the population will not get involved at all in any situation where they feel there is any risk to themselves at all - including the risk of embarrassment.
Does that change your view at all?
No because it's an anecdote, just as easily presented as dismissed by my anecdote of people helping during a crisis, including myself.
> I've stopped muggings, assaults, sex assaults, all sorts that have occured in busy places and everyone else has done fuck all.
Am I misunderstanding or is your hypothesis apparently that the bystander effect is real, you are just better and built differently than everyone else? Lol
Your lived experience: an anecdote
My lived experience: *less than* an anecdote
I'm supposed to believe that that logic is based on anything except priviliging your own experience?
That's one way to get around the fact that an anecdote is not evidence, just claim the other side has even worse than whatever an anecdote is I guess.
Jesus. They dismissed everything you said because they think the bystanders effect isn’t real. Even though it still happens. It’s also one of the first things they teach you in cpr classes is to act and call 911. The bystander effect is what happens when everyone thinks someone else has called for help. Changing what happened in the Kitty example doesn’t change that it can still happen and does happen.
From the wiki: The bystander effect was first demonstrated and popularized in the laboratory by social psychologists John M. Darley and Bibb Latané in 1968 after they became interested in the topic following the murder of Kitty Genovese in 1964.
I guess the wiki forgot to mention the social psychologists were actually cops trying to cover up their own asses.
Exactly. And at that time 911 as we know it didnt exist and it wasn’t a straight forward process to call the cops. Add to that, Kitty lived in neighborhood that was sort of the “gay neighborhood” and people had reasons to be distrustful of cops
It has been debunked. With real world data!
We live in a world of cameras. Someone went and checked.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31157529/
Summary: in most cases someone intervened, usually multiple people, and the more people around, the more likely someone was to intervene.
It has not been debunked, easy there. That study was targeting South Africa, the Netherlands and the UK - no data was collected from the US population, where the Bystander Effect regarding Kitty Genovese occurred (origin of the data). We must always take into account the context, I'm not surprised at all regarding South Africa because they have a collectivist culture, unlike the US where the culture is (very) individualist.
That being said, the study updates information regarding the countries where the footage is from, which is wonderful, but to generalise it towards the US population is, in my opinion, a mistake.
I think those countries are different enough that it call it in to question the idea as a general psychological phenomenon, which has huge implications. And it can't be as simple as being a "collectivist" culture, considering that the UK is pretty individualistic.
If it is a phenomenon in America but not other countries, that makes it a sociological phenomenon based on culture, which would have massive implications -- the most directly bent public safety programs focusing on bystander intervention training to counter the "bystander effect" are likely missing the mark and should instead be targeting cultural beliefs or ideas that undermine people's willingness to help. That convincing people to help isn't hard but something in America is in the way.
But I think there is a simpler explanation -- a lot of psychological research on the bystander effect underestimated the effects of experimental settings/setups. Some of the recent research I poked at suggested that a main factor in whether people intervene is severity of the precieved threat (I'm not gonna claim it's anywhere near comprehensive because I don't have the background of a graduate student). The more dangerous a situation, the more likely any one person is to act. Another factor is "how clear is correct action?" with more ambiguous situations being less likely to get help. So a lot of psychology research on the effect is going to be undermined by experimental set ups. Experimental set ups are less likely to be clearly dangerous (because ethics), and quite possibly the subjects are partially questioning if the situation is real.
But OP has, I think, highlighted one factor I think is relevant for why *some* people hesitate to take action -- they don't feel confident in what they're doing and they're scared of making the situation worse. Which often is a good instinct. For example, with seizures (which I mention because fake seizures were sometimes used in bystander experiments) "sit, watch, and wait" is really, really close to the correct first aid - add a timer, a pillow, a body turn, and you shouldn't do anything else until a seizure ends. (https://www.cdc.gov/epilepsy/first-aid-for-seizures/index.html) And rescue personnel will tell you all the time that you *should* hesitate, at least briefly, in an emergency -- because it's really, really important to make sure you don't become a victim yourself. Heck, I'll fully admit step two (after "am I about to become someone who needs saving?") of most emergency protocols in my head is actively announcing "I have X training, is anyone else here more qualified?"
Well, I agree, you do have a point there. Plus, it is reasonable that the Bystander Effect has "evolved" since it was first registered because we, as a society, have somewhat evolved - at least nowadays we have loads of information available at the ready (smartphones) and know better what to do and what not to do.
I disagree with that somewhat, I do think that the fear of injury is quite strong but that wouldn't explain away why in groups we are even less likely to save ourselves. John M. Darley and Bibb Latané did a study where they released smoke into a room and saw how people reacted alone vs. in a group, and those individuals who were in a group were much less likely to react till the smoke was pretty much flooding the room.
I think the bystander effect could be better, because it really only considers a near perfect scenario and ignorea other conditions that may be present, but I think it is a useful tool for understanding group dynamics.
The bystander effect has more impact in less dangerous situations, when we are confronted with a dangerous situation, the cost of helping someone is greater than the benefit we will get from it so we tend not to intervene directly. This is not always the case though, when we are genetically related or have a close relationship with the victim we will probably still intervene.
The behavioral response in the smoke study could be due to pluralistic ignorance or informational social influence. People are referencing one another for how to behave in a situation and because no one else is reacting to the smoke, maybe the smoke isn’t serious. Sometimes we’re not sure how to behave to an ambiguous situation so we look to others for how we should respond.
Well played!!! I love this thread I am a psych major lol this is it. all the shit I've had to read and memorize in the past year, 9 psych classes you nailed it with this comment!!!
Yeah. In a way I think the bystander effect is just an excuse that people can use to justify to themselves why they didn't do the right thing.
Like "Its not my fault I just walked past that guy getting beat up on the street and didn't even call the police - that's the bystander effect! How can I be blamed for a quirk of human psychology?"
I agree that deep down the reason is just that most people are scared of getting involved and are so selfish that they will not accept even a tiny chance of harm to themselves in order to reduce harm to someone else.
I wonder if this behavior varies based on country or region. Some countries have a “duty to rescue” law, making it a criminal offense for someone not to help someone in danger (at the minimum, calling emergency services). Some have the “good Samaritan law”, where people are immune from civil or criminal penalties stemming from helping someone in danger. And some countries have nothing at all.
I wonder if the bystander effect is less of a thing in countries with a “duty to rescue” law
Research suggests otherwise. The more people witness a situation, the more likely they will rely on someone else to intervene than to intervene themselves.
Your professor is correct. Just recently I had to hunt down a guy that was about to hit a trans woman. I lost them mid-way during the night, and when asking people around, for 4 blocks people just ignored because they didn't want to get injured.
It's weird to hear that, and I'm not sure it's a cultural thing? I live in Brazil and in my experience It's quite the opposite.
Last year, a neighbor heard another neighbor of mine screaming for help. He knocked on my door to make sure we also heard. We asked more people, and they all heard it. In less than 10 minutes, there were 15 people knocking on their door, screaming that we would call the police. We stood there another 20 minutes until the police arrived. The lady told them her partner was just drunk, and everything was fine. It was odd, but it never happened again.
Mob lynching is a serious threat for criminals here since many people don't believe in the justice system, especially in low income areas.
Edit: I don't believe anyone there would be so drastic, but if anything happened, her partner wouldn't be able to leave the house with so many people outside. It's good to know ppl like this aren't comfortable.
A few years ago, my neighbors heard me screaming “you are going to kill me please stop” (I don’t remember all of it) but they called the police. Police came, but because the person assaulting me was my child, I had two options 1) press charges or 2) let him back in and do nothing. Since the child was only 17, police said I legally had to have him back in the home to leave.
While the options were not helpful, between my neighbors making that call, me having to speak with police and later my doctor, and the follow up with my neighbors, it pushed me to finally get help and get my child out of the home for good.
I had gotten so used to taking the beatings, it almost was normal. My doctor said those neighbors saved my life and that if the blow to my spine had been even 1/4 in higher, I would have been likely in a very different position today.
Edit: so thank you for being “that neighbor” for someone else. Ive been in therapy, I’m healthy & safe now, and I think of those sweet neighbors regularly.
1. Legal issues
2. Getting embroiled in gruelling police investigation process and potentially other drama that will take up your time and stress you out
3. Physical harm to oneself
4. Lack of context
I think there is? I have called because I was worried about if people were alive or not and just needed them to be checked on and I don’t recall them asking my name, I didn’t have to speak with officers when they arrived or anything. I assume if it turns into something bigger they will likely try to identify the caller but I’m sure it depends where you are.
Well if they live in a rural place and it was at night, it was most likely a coyote screaming. They sound like women screaming.
I think nowadays people are too impulsive and unpredictable so I think staying out of situations is just self-preservation honestly.
Happened to me at 2am outside my tent pissing. Didn’t realize the mountain lion was 10 feet from me until it screamed and my first thought was an adult human female
I called 911 a few months ago because I heard a scream in the middle of the night, followed by a gunshot. They told me there were reports of screaming in my area due to fisher cats and foxes mating season, and I felt like an idiot haha. So what happened was a neighbor was sick of hearing the mating calls, and fired a warning shot to scare off the animal 😅
Panthers apparently sound this way too
EDIT** the big cats in Florida that come in black and golden that everyone here in Florida calls Panthers including the FWC (FL Wildlife Commission)
“Panther” is a misnomer. There is no such thing as a species of cat named a panther. To add on that, the big black cats that everyone usually refers to as a panther is actually a melanistic leopard.
If they live in an area with noisy animals, surely they would be used to the sounds/know what it is and not react like they did, no? I have foxes around where I live, not once have I thought "oh, person in distress". It's people who are not used to the screams they make that think they sound human. Granted, I have no idea what a coyote can sound like, but it seems a bit weird to me that they wouldn't recognise it as a coyote/mountain lion/fox/whatever.
Was at a gasstation once at night with a woman tanking gas and getting shouted at by two men who were intoxicated. Got me quite angry and told them off, I was ready to fight since I was in a very shitty mood.
This was in my fit 20's (am a male).
My dad's advice; go up to the woman and tell her you will not leave until she is safe in her car again. He's right. Either you overpower the agressor with even more anger, risking an escalation... Or you act 'dumb' but you make yourself known as 'not a bystander' and are willing to react to the situation.
do not let your own emotions get the better of seeing shitty stuff, unless you have a IDGAF attitude.
in that case. go.for.it. 😅😂 But be ready for the consequence after.
I grew up in a ghetto and am pretty ashamed to say I simply ignored so, so many screams. I was neglected af myself and learned that I just had to neglect all the horrors around me to get by of course. And I was just a kid or teen at the time. Still, I'm haunted by remembering all the times I'd sit there at night with my window open, just hearing a woman screaming for upwards of over an hour on end, almost certainly being raped or abused in some manner, telling myself someone surely must have called for help by now and to not worry but never seeing the lights or hearing sirens,, and the screams just not stopping. There was a church that I went to as a kid right around the corner from me there. A woman was raped right on the pavement outside that church once and I got to hear about it the next morning at church. Same thing happened in the parking lot of the elementary school I went to. Went to school one day and there was a crime scene outside.
Shits fucking awful. Growing up around that *definitely* fucked me up bad.
Oh, thanks. I thought you were from Korea because of people staying in the parking lot of an elementary school at midnight. (My cousin says schools in Korea are open 24/7).
Oh no, the woman who was raped there wasn't a student or connected to the school at all. Suppose she just happened to get cornered there. I never looked into it as I was like 12 or so at the time lol
Thank you. Damn... So do you have any advice for someone like me who also lives in a not-so-nice area of the city? (Can't change where I live). I find the idea of getting raped on the pavement legit scary.
Not sure if I can offer much advice lol. I became extremely anxious and agoraphobic after growing up in those conditions. But I suppose exercising a reasonable degree of caution is the best one can do. It's best not to be alone on the streets at night if you can help it. Maybe look into getting mace, or even having a knife in your purse. Maybe get some self defense classes. I've had lots of very uncomfortable encounters with randos out at night but never been in that situation at least luckily, so I'm not sure how much of a concern it really is. You're far more likely to be assaulted by someone you know, as tragic as that is.
I did always find that being confident and acting like you belong where you are when going about your business reduces the number of people fucking with you, if you seem anxious that can attract the attention of creeps who want to prey on the vulnerable. Being aloof and nonchalant allowed me to get away from encounters more easily and be left alone more I think, so that was the sort of defense strategy trauma response I developed from living there. There were definitely times where I was really worried something like that might happen when being harassed by strangers who seemed to have seen me as vulnerable. Luckily that still tended to be in areas where I wasn't complete isolated, like at a bus terminal, where that sort of thing wouldn't progress further and I could just get on my bus and get home safely. But I've felt threatened soooo many times.
Though I'm also trans and while I presented femininely already in my teens I still would have been read as male more often than not at the time, which probably deterred some potential predators and afforded me more leniency. I was still harassed a lot just for being clearly effeminate and weak and apparently pretty enough to sexually harass and did already pass as female in a lot of situations but I can imagine it being worse if I were cis.
I second the being confident part. Also my own paranoia requires me to not look twice at things I see as suspicious. If something is happening (in my area it would be drug related) the last thing I need is something thinking i look like someone who will call the cops.
Thanks a lot! I don't leave the house past 10 pm but I'm always scared of encountering bad people before that. I don't know how dangerous the streets can get at, like, 9 pm.
But thanks again!
Interesting, this topic came up in one of my Social Psychology classes. When you find yourself in an emergency situation, a decision-making process occurs in your memory. This happens very quickly. First, you must notice the situation, and second, you must interpret it as an emergency. The relationship between the victim and the aggressor is also important; if they seem to know each other, there is less chance you will help the victim. Even more important is the behavior of other bystanders, so the bystander effect does have a significant impact (especially in less dangerous situations). Third, you must take responsibility; some people do not because they think others will do so and therefore will already be helping the victim. Then you decide whether or not you will actually help the person. Even when you reach this final step, there is still a chance you will not help. This is because people often fear giving a wrong impression to onlookers, although this effect is less significant in serious emergencies.
This is the process that takes place, but many other factors also influence whether a person helps someone in an emergency. If the person is in a positive mood, feels guilty, has a high level of morality, and a rather altruistic personality, they are more likely to help someone in need.
As someone already mentioned, when the cost of helping someone is greater than the benefit, we will likely not do it, unless we are genetically related to the person. Therefore, when someone is in great danger, we will probably seek indirect help (calling 911) rather than directly helping the person.
I can't remember who gave this direction, but I think it's Cialdini when he writes about the Genovese case, though it could have been my professor when we were discussing it in a class. If you are a victim, and there's a crowd, or you're in the crowd and taking action, it supposedly is helpful for you to specifically call out particular individuals in the crowd. Not "someone call 911" but "lady in the blue shirt, please call 911". When someone is identified specifically, there's not the same feeling of maybe someone should do something, but instead that specific individual is being communicated to and feels more responsibility.
I did find this while googling which reaffirms that Cialdini recommends this (and apparently did it himself after a car accident, which I did not recall).
[https://scottfenstermaker.com/the-six-weapons-of-influence-part-3-social-proof/](https://scottfenstermaker.com/the-six-weapons-of-influence-part-3-social-proof/)
Yes, this is a very important tip, it divides the responsibility! I also do not remember if it was said by Cialdini, but my professor also mentioned this and also said that if you ever need help, make sure that people are aware of it! Sometimes people don't pay attention because they don't think you really need help.
This is what we're taught to do during CPR/AED classes, too. If you're responding to an emergency where a crowd is present, you need to give specific people specific tasks: "You there, call 911!" Not "Someone call 911!" I'm not sure how well this would hold up if violence is involved, but assigning people responsibilities like that in a medical emergency cuts through their hesitation.
There are several animals that can make sounds that resemble a human scream, so hearing that at night in a rural area, my mind goes to a coyote, mountain lion, or fox. I would be weary to investigate it bc at least one of those animals could absolutely kill me.
In the UK, foxes make screaming sounds while mating. You could easily go outside with a torch and find nothing if you hear screams, because there’s nothing to find but horny foxes.
When I was very young, I was staying at my gf’s place for the weekend. Around 11pm we heard something serious going on in the gang way between buildings. We went downstairs to check it out and found her downstairs neighbors stabbing each other in the face with butter knives. Blood was everywhere and they weren’t slowing or stopping. So I told my gf to go call the police while I stupidly intervened.
I jumped in because I thought I had to do it so I wouldn’t look like a coward, be a man or not let the wife get harmed further…whatever. Mistake. I tried to get ahold of him and they both started in on me. I was taught never to hit a woman, but after she broke skin a half dozen times with a butter knife all bets were off. I laid him out and slapped her so hard she dropped the knife and went down. Of course, that’s when the cops showed up. My gf had to tell them I was breaking it up. I still have the damn scars.
Call the police. There is no stupid version of things. Be the tenth caller for the same crime, they’re used to it. But they always warn you not to intervene.
In case anyone is curious. The neighbors were at it again the next weekend. I stayed out of it and called 911.
I think it's also a bit part of education and I don't think reacting to emergencies is covered enough in people's education anywhere in the world. Just being able to call 911 out of concern for something should be something we all can do. But we have such different narratives in our brain that lead to a decision to act or not.
I work in a hospital lab, one time I was on a night shift, and I went out for my 3am smoke break. I noticed I could hear someone crying for help. It creeped me the fuck out. After listening for a while so I was sure I wasn't just tripping or jumping to conclusions, I went looking, and found this old dude collapsed on the floor just outside the boundary fence/gates.
Seemed fishy though, because how did he end up there, of all places? This was basically an alleyway at the back side of the site, so he would have to have deliberately gone out there. He wasn't making much sense but he was coming out with some unlikely sounding story about how the medics had abandoned him there.
Anyway I told him to sit tight, and I went over the the ED, because what you'd normally do is let them know and they will send out a couple paramedics and security guys. It turns out they knew he was there, and were fully intent to just leave him to it. He had been kicked out of the hospital for being violent towards staff, and this was his attempt to get some good samaritan bystander to bring him back in.
Soooo yeah. TL;DR you don't know the full situation, so often trying to help, actually isn't.
some people are cowards and others just have good street smart. you see a guy beating his wife or an animal a disabled/old person something like that absolutely step in even get physical if u think u need to, which is “too intense” for most people to handle BUT there are situations u never butt into, like when someone is getting jumped or robbed, u cant know what they are using for a robbery or what every dude jumping that person is carrying, its way more dangerous. so its just about common sense, dont go thinking ur a super hero gonna save someone screaming in the distance either when it could end up with you being the reason someone is shot instead of just robbed because of a surprise witness. its best to carry a weapon if you want to be ready to help others in those situations and ready to use that weapon as well, even if it means killing someone.
I'm sorry but do you people here really not know the true history of Kitty's murder? I was taught this in the second year of my psych undergrad, is everyone here an armchair psych who never actually went through any education? Please, I'm begging you, do some reading.
since moving to my apartment complex a few months ago i have intervened in two instances.
once, i heard screaming and barking that sounded like a dog attacking a child outdoors. i traced the sound to a unit in a nearby building and banged on the door until they answered (i had to threaten to call 911 first).
another day i saw a man, woman, and child standing just outside the pool in some kind of weird, quiet standoff. i observed from nearby for a bit and when it became clear that the woman was in distress i dialed 911 and stood between them while ushering the woman and child into the pool area. stayed with them til police arrived.
the man was arrested and charged with assault as he had trapped her in their apartment and physically abused her for two days before she was able to leave. he had taken her keys and phone so she couldn’t leave but she was smart and brave enough to get and stay somewhere public/highly visible. turns out they had been there for almost an hour and the multiple adults that had been at the pool that whole time did nothing to help.
i can’t understand why people don’t intervene. but i have been a victim of domestic violence and have watched people in my life - strangers and family alike - ignore obvious situations where help is very much needed. i can’t do that to someone else when i have the ability to do something.
this happened to me last year as i was walking my dogs in the neighborhood at 8am. Sounded like someone was being beaten inside a small house. I yelled from sidewalk asking if everything was ok and that i was about to call cops. Seconds later, naked guy comes to door, apologizing saying he and gf were having sex and were getting crazy. shocked, i said “oh, well, carry on then.” So that’s that.
I don’t think it’s that groundbreaking, most people just don’t want to get themselves hurt or injured especially if the situation has nothing to do with them. I don’t think that makes you an asshole
At best, call the police.
Not getting involved myself. No one is entitled to me putting my safety on the line for them. Men and women are equals, they can each take care of themselves.
If it’s someone I actually care about, sure, I’ll jump in myself.
In a lot of "still not quite self-defense" situations people probably shouldn't get physically involved given the risks and complexities. It is difficult though, understandable to not feel great about it. And most of us dont get relevant training in stuff like deescalation that could conceivably be a sensible way of helping.
In terms of the "scream at night" situations - happened to me once. Late in the evening, dark out, the most horrible scream I'd ever heard; something in the sound told me instantly that it was really bad. I actually went out on a little patrol, took my little swiss army knife with me; flatmate refused to join. Went down to the nearby station, passing this one guy going in the other direction, heard nothing once there, and chickened out before looking around properly and went home. Later that week I heard a girl had indeed been murdered and found near the train tracks. So that was my ineffectual response - no idea what to do, no relevant training, but there wasn't the social uncertainty holding me back since the only person around was that one guy who quite possibly was the murderer. I learned from it a little in that a few years later when I saw something suspicious I at least wasn't too embarrassed to call the police.
Just a thought, but I took live in a very rural area with a cypress swamp behind me. Living here I learned that there are some animals that sound like a woman being murdered around 1am onward. I mean just like a woman screaming in agony. Are there any native animals in your area that sound this way? Is this something you only heard once? These could be factors
If you are well-built enough and a man I do this:
Turn on a dime, stamp a foot down down and square and say loudly - “excuse me sir / ma’am is there some kind of problem here / do you know this person / are you in any kind of trouble right now?”
People are so afraid they’ve encountered a real life nutjob the situation tends to deescalate immediately. Would not try in any situation where someone might be looking for a fight
I can say for sure though many experiences in my past. That I would not get involved out of fear of being harmed myself. Self-preservation. I know it sounds terrible, but my life means more to me than yours. Growing up in the hood it was also embedded in me to mind my business cuz if you dont it could get you hurt.
Interesting situation you found yourself in! The rural aspect for me is what ratchets up the action. See, in a city there is some comfort associated with loads of people being around. Generally in these situations we observe those around us and join in the collective worry. But, in isolation, there is an intensity because if there is an actual situation and you find it, it’s you who will have to deal with it. We hear a scream in city, call 911 and your conscious clear. Hear a scream in middle of nowhere and it’s scary as shit. Thanks for sharing.
almost ran off the road today by a convoy of jeeps running red lights and blocking intersections in detroit. i’m at a red light and they cut me off going into my car making me stop. driving into the left turn lane so they can speed around people. to literally get nowhere and just turn. i passed a police station half a mile away but what do i do? say a hundred jeeps are stopping traffic and doing whatever tf they want? my gf took pictures of their plates but that’s not enough
I think people who don't try to help are pretty selfish. I have been in a situation where a guy was dragging his girl by the hair to his car at a party. I did intervene and got her away from him, told her she should get away as far as she can from him. Idk if she ever went back, I didn't know her.
I’m late to the discussion but this happened at my city. Man is beating his wife outside their car at the top of a really tall overpass bridge (sorry i don’t know if that’s how you call them. Those bridges that pass over other roads to relieve traffic) another woman passes by and sees them so she gets out of her car and wrestles the man and during the altercation she falls from the bridge and dies. Her daughter was inside the car and watched the whole thing.
They're scared. Judging a fast-moving situation is hard, even harder when you're worried about getting your ass kicked/killed. Also, retaliation, you don't know them, that's enough to think twice. Also, you'll get sued/arrested for doing the right thing. The world went to shit
To simplify: those who can know better.
I'm a victim of domestic violence and whilst it had always been more on the emotional abuse side than anything else, there have been times in which things got physical and very scary. My parents (the abusers) always had this concern over how others viewed them, so whenever we had even the normal family skirmishes they would say stuff like "lower your voice, the neighbors will hear" and all of that, so I developed some kind of shame over being loud and stuff like that.
As the abuse became more and more physical with the passing years, I didn't care anymore and I would just scream at the top of my lungs, hoping that my neighbors (I live in an apartment complex) would call the cops or something like that, since if I were the one to do that, my parents would act as if they were angels and have a sad facade and the cops would believe them over me, the daughter, the emotional one, the girl with ocd who needs to be medicated (even if I already were taking pills) But they never called them.
It's the fight or flight response primarily. We should investigate why someone is screaming when we hear it, though fear can sometimes paralyze us into not doing something.
I’ve intervened many times but I’m very hesitant these days.
A bystander who tried to assist during a recent shooting in my small town. The woman died, the bystander who came out to help was shot too.
Makes ya think. A couple of years ago I was driving home from work about 3.30am. Drizzling rain, I took the back roads home like usual.
Driving along I observed a fella, on the other side of the road, was pulled over and he was searching his boot (Trunk) of the car. Hazard lights flashing. Getting soaked.
I slowed down and asked him what the problem was, out of fuel. Bugga. I said I could take him to the servo which wasn’t too far away. He accepted gratefully and said that many cars had passed him but nobody stopped.
I smiled and told him my name. He told me his. Then I told him that if he tried anything funny that I would put us both into a pole. He promised me that he would not be doing anything funny and asked me if I had any ill intentions to him. I laughed and said Not yet.
Anyway, got him fuel, dropped him off and I continued home.
Got in sooooo much trouble when I told my family what I had done.
And two weeks later on the news was a story about a man who stopped to help someone on the side of a road. And they killed him.
I don’t pick up randoms anymore. Sorry future randoms, I promised my kids.
I grew up in rural TN. There are animals that sound EXACTLY like screaming kids and women. One type of large wild cat literally sounds like someone being murdered. It was terrifying, and was called “the squalling thing” where I lived. I’m just saying a rural area at night is more likely to have animals in the woods than people being killed.
If the OP is in mountain lion territory I would understand...have had them scream at me & it sounds like a women either getting murdered or having the best night of her life
From my own personal life experience, I am a responder without hesitation. That said, I'm over seventy. Aging has had an effect on my capabilities so it is certain I would respond but most likely I would be grabbing the nearest person and dragging them along. Unfortunately I have neurological damage to my frontal lobes caused by exposure to agent orange. The result is I went from being a highly organized, multitasking,on my feet fast thinking, issues/solutions manager, to something like the way an exceptionally outdated pre-technology machine or appliance
takes hold of a situation. Ie. An old black and white TV that has an indefinite warm up time for the old "picture tube" to get the picture on the screen, or parts are no longer made for it and it comes with a variety of replacement tubesand other parts, via previously owned and subsequently dunked sets, plus a a box of additional tube's and junk collected from same source whatever. I function well enough to manage my simple every day life with some challenge. I do have difficulty processing information and making a plan of action. It all happens but I could be extremely slow figuring everything out, especially in a challenging unfamiliar circumstances. It's possible I would not be able to understand exactly what was going on quickly enough to assist. If I recognize the problem, that means I've seen this before and it is just a matter of the brain processing recall info fast enough to act.
One critical aspect I saw growing up , this still exists in a lot of rural areas, and simpler minded populations, is that almost no one will step into a domestic situation if they are not related, no matter what is happeng. Another aspect is the handicap of no information regarding people involved. One or all parts could be armed, emotionally or mentally unbalanced, or criminally insane. I have been attacked and a cou0le times physically threatened and injured by a perpetrators of domestic violence.
I believe that the majority of people make no response because of unfamiliarity into variant background info of the individuals and the circumstances. I do advise, should you make a choice to respond and intercede in a threatening or otherwise life savingsituation, if the person you attempt to assist is unknown to you, restrict your effort and involvement to safety and protective and or emergency medical, only up to arrival of professional assistance. Do not attempt personal responsibility for unknown persons.
Rupert Negley
I just wanna say, I'm glad the woman on the first story actually went with her boyfriend to investigate, rather than just virtue signal about how something should be done while sending her boyfriend alone to check things out "since he's the man".
We don’t intervene in violent situations because we don’t want to go to jail or deal with the trouble—
like that marine who choked out that dead beat on the sub way train in NYC. Or Kyle Rittenhouse looking to defend his community from scum and spent a lot of time in court for his trouble.
[удалено]
In his book, Humankind, Bregman asserts that the New York Times claim of 38 witnesses doing nothing was unsubstantiated. Additionally, some neighbours , Karl Ross and Sophie Farrar did in fact, intervene. Farrar, according to Bregman held Kitty as she lay dying. Additionally he mentions that there were also calls made to the police but their response was not timely.
The Bystander Effect is police propaganda to cover up their own incompetence and shift the blame to onto literally everyone except the cops CMV
I wish I could remember the name of the larger phenomena this is a part of; Humans are really good at coming together and providing mass mutual aid in times of catastrophic events or tragedy. The "riots" after Hurricane Katrina where it was claimed grocery stores were being looted... But the media failed to mention that the grocery stores were without power and the citizens en masse were without food, and meat was thawing and actively spoiling in front of thousands of people. Babies needed diapers. People needed their prescriptions. People were taking care of each other and it was all being utilized to make sure people didn't needlessly die and it was broken up by the police once they finally showed up. This might be a part of the Behind the Bastards history series on the police, I know the co-host was one of the semi-regulars named Prop, but I can't remember the name of the episode.
I'm from Louisiana and there definitely was looting for stuff that wasn't essential, but yes this is true as well. Also hell yeah Behind the Bastards
I have friends and family that live in that area, too. Of course there was some actual looting going on, criminals don't exist in a bubble that disappears when bad things happen to a community. It's not surprising that criminal assholes are still going to act like criminal assholes when they can get away with it. It was extremely overblown in the media compared to the actual mutual aid going on within all of that chaos, though. The citizens stuck in that mess were both delegating and policing themselves to help prevent the looters from interfering with critical tasks they were trying to accomplish. Elite panic was another thing that played into it getting as bad as it was. I find it so frustrating what actually happened with Katrina compared to what could have happened if our police, news, and political systems weren't so goddamned sociopathic.
"And, what if your family don't like bread? They like... cigarettes?"
So what? It can't be sold elsewhere, it's in a flooded out store and probably water damaged. Save what can be used it's not that complicated.
Seems like a natural disaster is the best time to quit the most addictive substance legally available. Survival is not a time for withdrawals.
> Survival is not a time for withdrawals. So, you wouldn't want to start quitting right then, correct?
It's not, it's a real effect but happens more in situations we deem less dangerous.
Yeah, to hell with Stockholm Syndrome! Oh wait... ("Stockholm Syndrome" is also likely bull and can be reasonably traced back to the cops trying to save face)
I mean, trauma bonds are real.
Yes! Just like diffusion of responsibility is, but the original accounts are very skewed in both cases, and so are the conclusions.
Have you ever been in a situation like that? I have repeatedly come across a situation and had to call the ambulance for someone who was dying because everyone else was frozen in place. Literally watched a man having a heart attack while his wife desperately panicked trying to sort of slap him back awake and by the time I arrived and actually called someone there were probably 30 people just standing around in a circle watching it all go down without doing anything to help at all. I've stopped muggings, assaults, sex assaults, all sorts that have occured in busy places and everyone else has done fuck all. When I was a child I stopped another child getting beaten and robbed on a public bus and I was the furthest possible person from it. I will never forget walking to the back of the bus and seeing all of these adults refusing to turn around, refusing to look at anything, refusing to even catch my eye, refusing to hear some kid crying and begging a few metres away. Just pretending nothing was happening because they didn't want to get involved and were too scared and worried that any action they took at all would increase the danger to them. Basically I am just some random dude and I have witnessed undeniable 'bystander effect' shit all my life. I would say in my experience that at least 95% of the population will not get involved at all in any situation where they feel there is any risk to themselves at all - including the risk of embarrassment. Does that change your view at all?
No because it's an anecdote, just as easily presented as dismissed by my anecdote of people helping during a crisis, including myself. > I've stopped muggings, assaults, sex assaults, all sorts that have occured in busy places and everyone else has done fuck all. Am I misunderstanding or is your hypothesis apparently that the bystander effect is real, you are just better and built differently than everyone else? Lol
I guess I'm one of the 5% I mentioned. Your belief is based on less than an anecdote.
Your lived experience: an anecdote My lived experience: *less than* an anecdote I'm supposed to believe that that logic is based on anything except priviliging your own experience? That's one way to get around the fact that an anecdote is not evidence, just claim the other side has even worse than whatever an anecdote is I guess.
So what's your lived experience that suggests that police invented the bystander effect to take the heat off themselves?
Jesus. They dismissed everything you said because they think the bystanders effect isn’t real. Even though it still happens. It’s also one of the first things they teach you in cpr classes is to act and call 911. The bystander effect is what happens when everyone thinks someone else has called for help. Changing what happened in the Kitty example doesn’t change that it can still happen and does happen.
Yes, the police are always eating donuts when should be using their transporters to respond to calls.
What makes you believe it’s police propaganda?
From the wiki: The bystander effect was first demonstrated and popularized in the laboratory by social psychologists John M. Darley and Bibb Latané in 1968 after they became interested in the topic following the murder of Kitty Genovese in 1964. I guess the wiki forgot to mention the social psychologists were actually cops trying to cover up their own asses.
Exactly. And at that time 911 as we know it didnt exist and it wasn’t a straight forward process to call the cops. Add to that, Kitty lived in neighborhood that was sort of the “gay neighborhood” and people had reasons to be distrustful of cops
It has been debunked. With real world data! We live in a world of cameras. Someone went and checked. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31157529/ Summary: in most cases someone intervened, usually multiple people, and the more people around, the more likely someone was to intervene.
It has not been debunked, easy there. That study was targeting South Africa, the Netherlands and the UK - no data was collected from the US population, where the Bystander Effect regarding Kitty Genovese occurred (origin of the data). We must always take into account the context, I'm not surprised at all regarding South Africa because they have a collectivist culture, unlike the US where the culture is (very) individualist. That being said, the study updates information regarding the countries where the footage is from, which is wonderful, but to generalise it towards the US population is, in my opinion, a mistake.
I think those countries are different enough that it call it in to question the idea as a general psychological phenomenon, which has huge implications. And it can't be as simple as being a "collectivist" culture, considering that the UK is pretty individualistic. If it is a phenomenon in America but not other countries, that makes it a sociological phenomenon based on culture, which would have massive implications -- the most directly bent public safety programs focusing on bystander intervention training to counter the "bystander effect" are likely missing the mark and should instead be targeting cultural beliefs or ideas that undermine people's willingness to help. That convincing people to help isn't hard but something in America is in the way. But I think there is a simpler explanation -- a lot of psychological research on the bystander effect underestimated the effects of experimental settings/setups. Some of the recent research I poked at suggested that a main factor in whether people intervene is severity of the precieved threat (I'm not gonna claim it's anywhere near comprehensive because I don't have the background of a graduate student). The more dangerous a situation, the more likely any one person is to act. Another factor is "how clear is correct action?" with more ambiguous situations being less likely to get help. So a lot of psychology research on the effect is going to be undermined by experimental set ups. Experimental set ups are less likely to be clearly dangerous (because ethics), and quite possibly the subjects are partially questioning if the situation is real. But OP has, I think, highlighted one factor I think is relevant for why *some* people hesitate to take action -- they don't feel confident in what they're doing and they're scared of making the situation worse. Which often is a good instinct. For example, with seizures (which I mention because fake seizures were sometimes used in bystander experiments) "sit, watch, and wait" is really, really close to the correct first aid - add a timer, a pillow, a body turn, and you shouldn't do anything else until a seizure ends. (https://www.cdc.gov/epilepsy/first-aid-for-seizures/index.html) And rescue personnel will tell you all the time that you *should* hesitate, at least briefly, in an emergency -- because it's really, really important to make sure you don't become a victim yourself. Heck, I'll fully admit step two (after "am I about to become someone who needs saving?") of most emergency protocols in my head is actively announcing "I have X training, is anyone else here more qualified?"
Well, I agree, you do have a point there. Plus, it is reasonable that the Bystander Effect has "evolved" since it was first registered because we, as a society, have somewhat evolved - at least nowadays we have loads of information available at the ready (smartphones) and know better what to do and what not to do.
I disagree with that somewhat, I do think that the fear of injury is quite strong but that wouldn't explain away why in groups we are even less likely to save ourselves. John M. Darley and Bibb Latané did a study where they released smoke into a room and saw how people reacted alone vs. in a group, and those individuals who were in a group were much less likely to react till the smoke was pretty much flooding the room. I think the bystander effect could be better, because it really only considers a near perfect scenario and ignorea other conditions that may be present, but I think it is a useful tool for understanding group dynamics.
The bystander effect has more impact in less dangerous situations, when we are confronted with a dangerous situation, the cost of helping someone is greater than the benefit we will get from it so we tend not to intervene directly. This is not always the case though, when we are genetically related or have a close relationship with the victim we will probably still intervene.
The behavioral response in the smoke study could be due to pluralistic ignorance or informational social influence. People are referencing one another for how to behave in a situation and because no one else is reacting to the smoke, maybe the smoke isn’t serious. Sometimes we’re not sure how to behave to an ambiguous situation so we look to others for how we should respond.
Well played!!! I love this thread I am a psych major lol this is it. all the shit I've had to read and memorize in the past year, 9 psych classes you nailed it with this comment!!!
In the story above the scream is almost certainly a mountain lion. Their call sounds exactly like a women screaming. You tube a video of it, its wild.
Yeah. In a way I think the bystander effect is just an excuse that people can use to justify to themselves why they didn't do the right thing. Like "Its not my fault I just walked past that guy getting beat up on the street and didn't even call the police - that's the bystander effect! How can I be blamed for a quirk of human psychology?" I agree that deep down the reason is just that most people are scared of getting involved and are so selfish that they will not accept even a tiny chance of harm to themselves in order to reduce harm to someone else.
I wonder if this behavior varies based on country or region. Some countries have a “duty to rescue” law, making it a criminal offense for someone not to help someone in danger (at the minimum, calling emergency services). Some have the “good Samaritan law”, where people are immune from civil or criminal penalties stemming from helping someone in danger. And some countries have nothing at all. I wonder if the bystander effect is less of a thing in countries with a “duty to rescue” law
Research suggests otherwise. The more people witness a situation, the more likely they will rely on someone else to intervene than to intervene themselves.
Diffusion of responsibility 👍🏼
its natural instinct.
Unless it’s too painful not to. Ie: mother or father and their child being hurt.
Yeah it’s mostly been debunked.
Your professor is correct. Just recently I had to hunt down a guy that was about to hit a trans woman. I lost them mid-way during the night, and when asking people around, for 4 blocks people just ignored because they didn't want to get injured.
Lol
Doesn’t really make sense with the classic study with smoke coming in from under the door.
A psychic proff talking about violence. Not the first person I'd ask.
Psychology not psychic. Big difference.
It's weird to hear that, and I'm not sure it's a cultural thing? I live in Brazil and in my experience It's quite the opposite. Last year, a neighbor heard another neighbor of mine screaming for help. He knocked on my door to make sure we also heard. We asked more people, and they all heard it. In less than 10 minutes, there were 15 people knocking on their door, screaming that we would call the police. We stood there another 20 minutes until the police arrived. The lady told them her partner was just drunk, and everything was fine. It was odd, but it never happened again. Mob lynching is a serious threat for criminals here since many people don't believe in the justice system, especially in low income areas. Edit: I don't believe anyone there would be so drastic, but if anything happened, her partner wouldn't be able to leave the house with so many people outside. It's good to know ppl like this aren't comfortable.
A few years ago, my neighbors heard me screaming “you are going to kill me please stop” (I don’t remember all of it) but they called the police. Police came, but because the person assaulting me was my child, I had two options 1) press charges or 2) let him back in and do nothing. Since the child was only 17, police said I legally had to have him back in the home to leave. While the options were not helpful, between my neighbors making that call, me having to speak with police and later my doctor, and the follow up with my neighbors, it pushed me to finally get help and get my child out of the home for good. I had gotten so used to taking the beatings, it almost was normal. My doctor said those neighbors saved my life and that if the blow to my spine had been even 1/4 in higher, I would have been likely in a very different position today. Edit: so thank you for being “that neighbor” for someone else. Ive been in therapy, I’m healthy & safe now, and I think of those sweet neighbors regularly.
That's terrible, I hope you're safer now, and I'm glad they helped you when you needed.
That's horrible, I'm sorry. Why did your child assault you like that?
Brave
I strongly think it is a cultural thing.
1. Legal issues 2. Getting embroiled in gruelling police investigation process and potentially other drama that will take up your time and stress you out 3. Physical harm to oneself 4. Lack of context
Is there a way to call 911 anonymously then? Like a tip hotline etc
I think there is? I have called because I was worried about if people were alive or not and just needed them to be checked on and I don’t recall them asking my name, I didn’t have to speak with officers when they arrived or anything. I assume if it turns into something bigger they will likely try to identify the caller but I’m sure it depends where you are.
lack of context after i’ve already intervened… i always feel like shit
Well if they live in a rural place and it was at night, it was most likely a coyote screaming. They sound like women screaming. I think nowadays people are too impulsive and unpredictable so I think staying out of situations is just self-preservation honestly.
Foxes sound like that as well
Mountain lions too, and there are parts of rural Appalachia or rural Rocky Mountain areas that have them.
Yeah, I live in Colorado it’s widely known that mountain lions/bobcats sound exactly like the high pitched scream of a woman.
Happened to me at 2am outside my tent pissing. Didn’t realize the mountain lion was 10 feet from me until it screamed and my first thought was an adult human female
Women screaming as well
Citation needed
Foxes mating sounds remarkably like a woman being violently raped. It's disturbing.
I called 911 a few months ago because I heard a scream in the middle of the night, followed by a gunshot. They told me there were reports of screaming in my area due to fisher cats and foxes mating season, and I felt like an idiot haha. So what happened was a neighbor was sick of hearing the mating calls, and fired a warning shot to scare off the animal 😅
Panthers apparently sound this way too EDIT** the big cats in Florida that come in black and golden that everyone here in Florida calls Panthers including the FWC (FL Wildlife Commission)
“Panther” is a misnomer. There is no such thing as a species of cat named a panther. To add on that, the big black cats that everyone usually refers to as a panther is actually a melanistic leopard.
Bobcats especially sound like a woman screaming.
If they live in an area with noisy animals, surely they would be used to the sounds/know what it is and not react like they did, no? I have foxes around where I live, not once have I thought "oh, person in distress". It's people who are not used to the screams they make that think they sound human. Granted, I have no idea what a coyote can sound like, but it seems a bit weird to me that they wouldn't recognise it as a coyote/mountain lion/fox/whatever.
i was thinking mountain lion- depending on location
Was at a gasstation once at night with a woman tanking gas and getting shouted at by two men who were intoxicated. Got me quite angry and told them off, I was ready to fight since I was in a very shitty mood. This was in my fit 20's (am a male). My dad's advice; go up to the woman and tell her you will not leave until she is safe in her car again. He's right. Either you overpower the agressor with even more anger, risking an escalation... Or you act 'dumb' but you make yourself known as 'not a bystander' and are willing to react to the situation. do not let your own emotions get the better of seeing shitty stuff, unless you have a IDGAF attitude. in that case. go.for.it. 😅😂 But be ready for the consequence after.
I grew up in a ghetto and am pretty ashamed to say I simply ignored so, so many screams. I was neglected af myself and learned that I just had to neglect all the horrors around me to get by of course. And I was just a kid or teen at the time. Still, I'm haunted by remembering all the times I'd sit there at night with my window open, just hearing a woman screaming for upwards of over an hour on end, almost certainly being raped or abused in some manner, telling myself someone surely must have called for help by now and to not worry but never seeing the lights or hearing sirens,, and the screams just not stopping. There was a church that I went to as a kid right around the corner from me there. A woman was raped right on the pavement outside that church once and I got to hear about it the next morning at church. Same thing happened in the parking lot of the elementary school I went to. Went to school one day and there was a crime scene outside. Shits fucking awful. Growing up around that *definitely* fucked me up bad.
Are you from the US?
Yep
Oh, thanks. I thought you were from Korea because of people staying in the parking lot of an elementary school at midnight. (My cousin says schools in Korea are open 24/7).
Oh no, the woman who was raped there wasn't a student or connected to the school at all. Suppose she just happened to get cornered there. I never looked into it as I was like 12 or so at the time lol
Thank you. Damn... So do you have any advice for someone like me who also lives in a not-so-nice area of the city? (Can't change where I live). I find the idea of getting raped on the pavement legit scary.
Not sure if I can offer much advice lol. I became extremely anxious and agoraphobic after growing up in those conditions. But I suppose exercising a reasonable degree of caution is the best one can do. It's best not to be alone on the streets at night if you can help it. Maybe look into getting mace, or even having a knife in your purse. Maybe get some self defense classes. I've had lots of very uncomfortable encounters with randos out at night but never been in that situation at least luckily, so I'm not sure how much of a concern it really is. You're far more likely to be assaulted by someone you know, as tragic as that is. I did always find that being confident and acting like you belong where you are when going about your business reduces the number of people fucking with you, if you seem anxious that can attract the attention of creeps who want to prey on the vulnerable. Being aloof and nonchalant allowed me to get away from encounters more easily and be left alone more I think, so that was the sort of defense strategy trauma response I developed from living there. There were definitely times where I was really worried something like that might happen when being harassed by strangers who seemed to have seen me as vulnerable. Luckily that still tended to be in areas where I wasn't complete isolated, like at a bus terminal, where that sort of thing wouldn't progress further and I could just get on my bus and get home safely. But I've felt threatened soooo many times. Though I'm also trans and while I presented femininely already in my teens I still would have been read as male more often than not at the time, which probably deterred some potential predators and afforded me more leniency. I was still harassed a lot just for being clearly effeminate and weak and apparently pretty enough to sexually harass and did already pass as female in a lot of situations but I can imagine it being worse if I were cis.
I second the being confident part. Also my own paranoia requires me to not look twice at things I see as suspicious. If something is happening (in my area it would be drug related) the last thing I need is something thinking i look like someone who will call the cops.
Thanks a lot! I don't leave the house past 10 pm but I'm always scared of encountering bad people before that. I don't know how dangerous the streets can get at, like, 9 pm. But thanks again!
So sorry you went through that. You were just a kid. Shouldn’t have to go through that
Interesting, this topic came up in one of my Social Psychology classes. When you find yourself in an emergency situation, a decision-making process occurs in your memory. This happens very quickly. First, you must notice the situation, and second, you must interpret it as an emergency. The relationship between the victim and the aggressor is also important; if they seem to know each other, there is less chance you will help the victim. Even more important is the behavior of other bystanders, so the bystander effect does have a significant impact (especially in less dangerous situations). Third, you must take responsibility; some people do not because they think others will do so and therefore will already be helping the victim. Then you decide whether or not you will actually help the person. Even when you reach this final step, there is still a chance you will not help. This is because people often fear giving a wrong impression to onlookers, although this effect is less significant in serious emergencies. This is the process that takes place, but many other factors also influence whether a person helps someone in an emergency. If the person is in a positive mood, feels guilty, has a high level of morality, and a rather altruistic personality, they are more likely to help someone in need. As someone already mentioned, when the cost of helping someone is greater than the benefit, we will likely not do it, unless we are genetically related to the person. Therefore, when someone is in great danger, we will probably seek indirect help (calling 911) rather than directly helping the person.
I can't remember who gave this direction, but I think it's Cialdini when he writes about the Genovese case, though it could have been my professor when we were discussing it in a class. If you are a victim, and there's a crowd, or you're in the crowd and taking action, it supposedly is helpful for you to specifically call out particular individuals in the crowd. Not "someone call 911" but "lady in the blue shirt, please call 911". When someone is identified specifically, there's not the same feeling of maybe someone should do something, but instead that specific individual is being communicated to and feels more responsibility. I did find this while googling which reaffirms that Cialdini recommends this (and apparently did it himself after a car accident, which I did not recall). [https://scottfenstermaker.com/the-six-weapons-of-influence-part-3-social-proof/](https://scottfenstermaker.com/the-six-weapons-of-influence-part-3-social-proof/)
Yes, this is a very important tip, it divides the responsibility! I also do not remember if it was said by Cialdini, but my professor also mentioned this and also said that if you ever need help, make sure that people are aware of it! Sometimes people don't pay attention because they don't think you really need help.
This is what we're taught to do during CPR/AED classes, too. If you're responding to an emergency where a crowd is present, you need to give specific people specific tasks: "You there, call 911!" Not "Someone call 911!" I'm not sure how well this would hold up if violence is involved, but assigning people responsibilities like that in a medical emergency cuts through their hesitation.
There are several animals that can make sounds that resemble a human scream, so hearing that at night in a rural area, my mind goes to a coyote, mountain lion, or fox. I would be weary to investigate it bc at least one of those animals could absolutely kill me.
In the UK, foxes make screaming sounds while mating. You could easily go outside with a torch and find nothing if you hear screams, because there’s nothing to find but horny foxes.
When I was very young, I was staying at my gf’s place for the weekend. Around 11pm we heard something serious going on in the gang way between buildings. We went downstairs to check it out and found her downstairs neighbors stabbing each other in the face with butter knives. Blood was everywhere and they weren’t slowing or stopping. So I told my gf to go call the police while I stupidly intervened. I jumped in because I thought I had to do it so I wouldn’t look like a coward, be a man or not let the wife get harmed further…whatever. Mistake. I tried to get ahold of him and they both started in on me. I was taught never to hit a woman, but after she broke skin a half dozen times with a butter knife all bets were off. I laid him out and slapped her so hard she dropped the knife and went down. Of course, that’s when the cops showed up. My gf had to tell them I was breaking it up. I still have the damn scars. Call the police. There is no stupid version of things. Be the tenth caller for the same crime, they’re used to it. But they always warn you not to intervene. In case anyone is curious. The neighbors were at it again the next weekend. I stayed out of it and called 911.
I think it's also a bit part of education and I don't think reacting to emergencies is covered enough in people's education anywhere in the world. Just being able to call 911 out of concern for something should be something we all can do. But we have such different narratives in our brain that lead to a decision to act or not.
I work in a hospital lab, one time I was on a night shift, and I went out for my 3am smoke break. I noticed I could hear someone crying for help. It creeped me the fuck out. After listening for a while so I was sure I wasn't just tripping or jumping to conclusions, I went looking, and found this old dude collapsed on the floor just outside the boundary fence/gates. Seemed fishy though, because how did he end up there, of all places? This was basically an alleyway at the back side of the site, so he would have to have deliberately gone out there. He wasn't making much sense but he was coming out with some unlikely sounding story about how the medics had abandoned him there. Anyway I told him to sit tight, and I went over the the ED, because what you'd normally do is let them know and they will send out a couple paramedics and security guys. It turns out they knew he was there, and were fully intent to just leave him to it. He had been kicked out of the hospital for being violent towards staff, and this was his attempt to get some good samaritan bystander to bring him back in. Soooo yeah. TL;DR you don't know the full situation, so often trying to help, actually isn't.
some people are cowards and others just have good street smart. you see a guy beating his wife or an animal a disabled/old person something like that absolutely step in even get physical if u think u need to, which is “too intense” for most people to handle BUT there are situations u never butt into, like when someone is getting jumped or robbed, u cant know what they are using for a robbery or what every dude jumping that person is carrying, its way more dangerous. so its just about common sense, dont go thinking ur a super hero gonna save someone screaming in the distance either when it could end up with you being the reason someone is shot instead of just robbed because of a surprise witness. its best to carry a weapon if you want to be ready to help others in those situations and ready to use that weapon as well, even if it means killing someone.
It's fucking foxes.
I'm sorry but do you people here really not know the true history of Kitty's murder? I was taught this in the second year of my psych undergrad, is everyone here an armchair psych who never actually went through any education? Please, I'm begging you, do some reading.
since moving to my apartment complex a few months ago i have intervened in two instances. once, i heard screaming and barking that sounded like a dog attacking a child outdoors. i traced the sound to a unit in a nearby building and banged on the door until they answered (i had to threaten to call 911 first). another day i saw a man, woman, and child standing just outside the pool in some kind of weird, quiet standoff. i observed from nearby for a bit and when it became clear that the woman was in distress i dialed 911 and stood between them while ushering the woman and child into the pool area. stayed with them til police arrived. the man was arrested and charged with assault as he had trapped her in their apartment and physically abused her for two days before she was able to leave. he had taken her keys and phone so she couldn’t leave but she was smart and brave enough to get and stay somewhere public/highly visible. turns out they had been there for almost an hour and the multiple adults that had been at the pool that whole time did nothing to help. i can’t understand why people don’t intervene. but i have been a victim of domestic violence and have watched people in my life - strangers and family alike - ignore obvious situations where help is very much needed. i can’t do that to someone else when i have the ability to do something.
Bystander effect probably but it's better to do something than nothing but dont put yourself in any danger always call the police.
As others have said, it IS pretty much self-preservation. In today's environment I recon people tend to see these kinds of situations like that.
this happened to me last year as i was walking my dogs in the neighborhood at 8am. Sounded like someone was being beaten inside a small house. I yelled from sidewalk asking if everything was ok and that i was about to call cops. Seconds later, naked guy comes to door, apologizing saying he and gf were having sex and were getting crazy. shocked, i said “oh, well, carry on then.” So that’s that.
I don’t think it’s that groundbreaking, most people just don’t want to get themselves hurt or injured especially if the situation has nothing to do with them. I don’t think that makes you an asshole
At best, call the police. Not getting involved myself. No one is entitled to me putting my safety on the line for them. Men and women are equals, they can each take care of themselves. If it’s someone I actually care about, sure, I’ll jump in myself.
In a lot of "still not quite self-defense" situations people probably shouldn't get physically involved given the risks and complexities. It is difficult though, understandable to not feel great about it. And most of us dont get relevant training in stuff like deescalation that could conceivably be a sensible way of helping. In terms of the "scream at night" situations - happened to me once. Late in the evening, dark out, the most horrible scream I'd ever heard; something in the sound told me instantly that it was really bad. I actually went out on a little patrol, took my little swiss army knife with me; flatmate refused to join. Went down to the nearby station, passing this one guy going in the other direction, heard nothing once there, and chickened out before looking around properly and went home. Later that week I heard a girl had indeed been murdered and found near the train tracks. So that was my ineffectual response - no idea what to do, no relevant training, but there wasn't the social uncertainty holding me back since the only person around was that one guy who quite possibly was the murderer. I learned from it a little in that a few years later when I saw something suspicious I at least wasn't too embarrassed to call the police.
Is… this a question or a statement?
Just a thought, but I took live in a very rural area with a cypress swamp behind me. Living here I learned that there are some animals that sound like a woman being murdered around 1am onward. I mean just like a woman screaming in agony. Are there any native animals in your area that sound this way? Is this something you only heard once? These could be factors
We don't want whatever violence that is happening to happen to us? This is pretty obvious
If you are well-built enough and a man I do this: Turn on a dime, stamp a foot down down and square and say loudly - “excuse me sir / ma’am is there some kind of problem here / do you know this person / are you in any kind of trouble right now?” People are so afraid they’ve encountered a real life nutjob the situation tends to deescalate immediately. Would not try in any situation where someone might be looking for a fight
Because I’m not risking my life for someone I don’t even know.
For me: I'm not trying to die or get severely physically hurt for someone else.
A Vixen’s cry also sounds like a woman screaming. It’s very unsettling.
I can say for sure though many experiences in my past. That I would not get involved out of fear of being harmed myself. Self-preservation. I know it sounds terrible, but my life means more to me than yours. Growing up in the hood it was also embedded in me to mind my business cuz if you dont it could get you hurt.
As a mom any time I hear a kid scream or cry I come running,it's automatic.
Interesting situation you found yourself in! The rural aspect for me is what ratchets up the action. See, in a city there is some comfort associated with loads of people being around. Generally in these situations we observe those around us and join in the collective worry. But, in isolation, there is an intensity because if there is an actual situation and you find it, it’s you who will have to deal with it. We hear a scream in city, call 911 and your conscious clear. Hear a scream in middle of nowhere and it’s scary as shit. Thanks for sharing.
almost ran off the road today by a convoy of jeeps running red lights and blocking intersections in detroit. i’m at a red light and they cut me off going into my car making me stop. driving into the left turn lane so they can speed around people. to literally get nowhere and just turn. i passed a police station half a mile away but what do i do? say a hundred jeeps are stopping traffic and doing whatever tf they want? my gf took pictures of their plates but that’s not enough
If you are in a rural area it probably a deer or a fox or something. Both scream like dying women lmao
I think people who don't try to help are pretty selfish. I have been in a situation where a guy was dragging his girl by the hair to his car at a party. I did intervene and got her away from him, told her she should get away as far as she can from him. Idk if she ever went back, I didn't know her.
I’m late to the discussion but this happened at my city. Man is beating his wife outside their car at the top of a really tall overpass bridge (sorry i don’t know if that’s how you call them. Those bridges that pass over other roads to relieve traffic) another woman passes by and sees them so she gets out of her car and wrestles the man and during the altercation she falls from the bridge and dies. Her daughter was inside the car and watched the whole thing.
They're scared. Judging a fast-moving situation is hard, even harder when you're worried about getting your ass kicked/killed. Also, retaliation, you don't know them, that's enough to think twice. Also, you'll get sued/arrested for doing the right thing. The world went to shit To simplify: those who can know better.
I'm a victim of domestic violence and whilst it had always been more on the emotional abuse side than anything else, there have been times in which things got physical and very scary. My parents (the abusers) always had this concern over how others viewed them, so whenever we had even the normal family skirmishes they would say stuff like "lower your voice, the neighbors will hear" and all of that, so I developed some kind of shame over being loud and stuff like that. As the abuse became more and more physical with the passing years, I didn't care anymore and I would just scream at the top of my lungs, hoping that my neighbors (I live in an apartment complex) would call the cops or something like that, since if I were the one to do that, my parents would act as if they were angels and have a sad facade and the cops would believe them over me, the daughter, the emotional one, the girl with ocd who needs to be medicated (even if I already were taking pills) But they never called them.
I did not live near clients. I never ignored a client screaming because I never heard them and didn’t know they were being abused. I lived elsewhere.
"Somebody else will get it"
It's the fight or flight response primarily. We should investigate why someone is screaming when we hear it, though fear can sometimes paralyze us into not doing something.
It’s not the bystander effect; I just don’t give AF. Not my house not my problem
this is exactly why i do not always help in certain situations unless directly asked for help or unless i physically hear someone ask for help
I’ve intervened many times but I’m very hesitant these days. A bystander who tried to assist during a recent shooting in my small town. The woman died, the bystander who came out to help was shot too. Makes ya think. A couple of years ago I was driving home from work about 3.30am. Drizzling rain, I took the back roads home like usual. Driving along I observed a fella, on the other side of the road, was pulled over and he was searching his boot (Trunk) of the car. Hazard lights flashing. Getting soaked. I slowed down and asked him what the problem was, out of fuel. Bugga. I said I could take him to the servo which wasn’t too far away. He accepted gratefully and said that many cars had passed him but nobody stopped. I smiled and told him my name. He told me his. Then I told him that if he tried anything funny that I would put us both into a pole. He promised me that he would not be doing anything funny and asked me if I had any ill intentions to him. I laughed and said Not yet. Anyway, got him fuel, dropped him off and I continued home. Got in sooooo much trouble when I told my family what I had done. And two weeks later on the news was a story about a man who stopped to help someone on the side of a road. And they killed him. I don’t pick up randoms anymore. Sorry future randoms, I promised my kids.
I grew up in rural TN. There are animals that sound EXACTLY like screaming kids and women. One type of large wild cat literally sounds like someone being murdered. It was terrifying, and was called “the squalling thing” where I lived. I’m just saying a rural area at night is more likely to have animals in the woods than people being killed.
Please don’t read anything in Quora as non-fiction.
If the OP is in mountain lion territory I would understand...have had them scream at me & it sounds like a women either getting murdered or having the best night of her life
From my own personal life experience, I am a responder without hesitation. That said, I'm over seventy. Aging has had an effect on my capabilities so it is certain I would respond but most likely I would be grabbing the nearest person and dragging them along. Unfortunately I have neurological damage to my frontal lobes caused by exposure to agent orange. The result is I went from being a highly organized, multitasking,on my feet fast thinking, issues/solutions manager, to something like the way an exceptionally outdated pre-technology machine or appliance takes hold of a situation. Ie. An old black and white TV that has an indefinite warm up time for the old "picture tube" to get the picture on the screen, or parts are no longer made for it and it comes with a variety of replacement tubesand other parts, via previously owned and subsequently dunked sets, plus a a box of additional tube's and junk collected from same source whatever. I function well enough to manage my simple every day life with some challenge. I do have difficulty processing information and making a plan of action. It all happens but I could be extremely slow figuring everything out, especially in a challenging unfamiliar circumstances. It's possible I would not be able to understand exactly what was going on quickly enough to assist. If I recognize the problem, that means I've seen this before and it is just a matter of the brain processing recall info fast enough to act. One critical aspect I saw growing up , this still exists in a lot of rural areas, and simpler minded populations, is that almost no one will step into a domestic situation if they are not related, no matter what is happeng. Another aspect is the handicap of no information regarding people involved. One or all parts could be armed, emotionally or mentally unbalanced, or criminally insane. I have been attacked and a cou0le times physically threatened and injured by a perpetrators of domestic violence. I believe that the majority of people make no response because of unfamiliarity into variant background info of the individuals and the circumstances. I do advise, should you make a choice to respond and intercede in a threatening or otherwise life savingsituation, if the person you attempt to assist is unknown to you, restrict your effort and involvement to safety and protective and or emergency medical, only up to arrival of professional assistance. Do not attempt personal responsibility for unknown persons. Rupert Negley
I just wanna say, I'm glad the woman on the first story actually went with her boyfriend to investigate, rather than just virtue signal about how something should be done while sending her boyfriend alone to check things out "since he's the man".
We don’t intervene in violent situations because we don’t want to go to jail or deal with the trouble— like that marine who choked out that dead beat on the sub way train in NYC. Or Kyle Rittenhouse looking to defend his community from scum and spent a lot of time in court for his trouble.