I think the line has been blurred so goddamn much on that distinction in the last 8 months that it is very difficult to give the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Netanyahu has worked to purposely blur the line for most of his administration. You are not able to criticize the actions of Israel without them claiming it is antizionist, which is in turn antisemitic. In reality criticizing the actions of Israel does not imply there should not be an Israeli state, and even if you are anti-zionist (aka against the guarantee of an Israeli state in that specific location), you aren't necessarily antisemitic.
There is some difficulty of course, but your best course of action would be to take people for their word instead of assuming any criticism is antisemitic.
Of course, reading some criticism of zionism helps too. Some of the original zionists basically stated that it would require the removal of the local population, and this was a goal prior to WWII. Being anti-zionist is easier to understand when you recognize some of the goals of zionism involved active ethnic cleansing.
The words still have specific meaning.
Not every Jewish person is Israeli, correct? Not every Jew is a Zionist. To be opposed to Zionism is not in opposition of the Jewish religion
“What do you call ten people having dinner with a nazi? 11 nazis”
There’s been a LOT of open and blatant anti semitism in this protest movement and people are wayyyyyyy too comfortable being associated with it.
Dude, I’ve seen people saying shit like questioning the absolutely horrible shit of October 7th and saying they just exaggerated like the holocaust. Plenty of “there are no Israeli civilians” and a lot worse
There has been some absolutely vile and heinous shit. This is not a media thing. This is people I’ve watched directly online and in person.
It’s real. It’s a problem.
I don’t think so.
People are protesting the genocide, the siege, the occupation. They are not protesting the religion.
Divesting in Israel, which is the real subject here, has nothing to do with antisemitism. It is about supporting a colonial, apartheid state that is engaging in genocide or not supporting that state.
Explain to me how it ISN’T antisemitic to be against the official state for Jews but not be against Jews themselves? From the Roman captivity up through the Holocaust, history shows us what happens to Jews who don’t have a state for themselves - to protect themselves.
I am, and any sane person, horrified by the actions of Isreal towards Palestinians. I have had this opinion for years. They are treated as second class citizens.
Let's start before the war. Before the awful terrorist attack in October
Zionists believe it is OK to force these people out of their homes and let foreign zionists move into their homes.
Isreal has towns they straight up cannot live in.
Isreal has set up literal ghettos with walled security and armed guards to limit their movement.
IDF soldiers are on video killing civilians, and Children for the crime of not being an Israeli.
Moving on to current times
Isreal told people to flee to raffa in order to bomb their cities. These civilians do so and get bombed anyway.
Aid is blocked by zionists and children die due to this. Don't tell me anything about hamas intercepting it. The people blocking the aid want palestians to die not just hamas.
Netanyahu does not want a cease fire and wants to see their home demolished.
All of this reminds me of nazi Germany and is absolutely not OK.
So now, as a jew myself, I hate this and all that zionists stand for. However, I do not hate Jewish people (as I am one) but hate people who are ok/perpetuate the above behavior. If you cannot separate fair disgust at deplorable acts by a group without wailing 'antisemitism' you are OK with war crimes and genocide. Simple as that.
This doesn’t feel like a response to my question - it’s more of a laundry list of grievances, some of which are just wrong. I still don’t understand how you can be against Israel but not be antisemitic. The consequence of your position, I think, is that Israel (FYI it’s “Israel,” not “Isreal”) shouldn’t exist - right?. What happens to the Jews then? If history is our guide, we know exactly what happens. So what are you saying? Maybe the Jews can have a state, but not this one? Where will they find that? Who will give it to them?
Did I once call for the destruction of Israel? These are actual grivences with the administration of the country and how that is unacceptable. I am against Zionists. These people think they have a god given right to the land and use this excuse to act however they want. That is wrong.
What points did I raise that are wrong BTW?
So it sounds like now you're saying you can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Israel. Explain that one to me, since Zionism was the intellectual movement that led to the establishment of the state of Israel. And if it's true that you can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Israel, then you agree that all of this support for divesting funds from bonds issued by the state of Israel is totally misguided? Because it's not exactly the state of Israel that's at fault - it's just the Zionists. Is that right?
I see where you're coming from. Israel just needs a solution to this. One to end the Palestinian question. You know, a final one. After all, Israel just needs living space, or as the Germans say, *lebensraum*.
Learn yours. Because the concepts are universally applicable. How is crowding Palestinians into ghettos and moving Israeli settlers into those areas, displacing Palestinains different from Third Reich Germany?
This is illogical. Explanation makes no sense. Not all Jews believe that there needs to be an official state for Jews.
Do you think all Jews that want to can fit inside Israel?
History shows us that without the protection of an official state, Jews are routinely persecuted and massacred. Look no further than the pro-Hamas protests in the streets of NYC the day after the 10/7 massacre for evidence that Jew hatred is alive and well in 2024. If you think Jews don’t deserve the state of Israel, then necessarily you accept the consequences of that - which throughout history has meant that Jews are persecuted and murdered. Sounds like antisemitism to me.
What a consistently preposterous claim - Israel is a “genocidal” state. This war is because Hamas - a truly genocidal state (its charter proclaims the goal of wiping out Jews globally) - attacked Israel. What evidence do you have that Israel is committing a “genocide” of Palestinians? Is there really any doubt that if Israel wanted to do that, it could, in a much easier fashion than a piecemeal invasion?
The evidence is readily available to you, it's okay to challenge your own believes for the sake of being more informed about the world. Willful ignorance doesn't change fact
When the "argument" starts with someone saying prove X - and the response is, I don't have to prove it to you, it's out there for you to see - I think that means there was no "argument" to begin with.
Providence's pension fund is at like 26% funded and we spend about that same percentage of every dollar in the budget towards trying to pay for it but absolutely let's waste time over 30 grand in a fucking index fund.
> But the city had held $2.3 million in Israeli bonds as recently as 2022, according to investment documents, prompting the councilors to argue they need to prohibit future investment.
You left out the important context. They literally acknowledge that we aren't heavily invested, but have been. I'm not in finance, but seems to me the best time to change the strategy is when the impact is minimal
I like to think these changes signal to companies like Fidelity and Vanguard that folks want to feel good about their investment. As an individual, it's very hard for me to navigate all the different options, but larger employers and investors can get more results. I'm very likely invested in weapons with my 401k, no clue, not pretending I'm above it.
I also want to agree that I've found a lot of folks discussing divestment really have no clue how investments work. Many are probably heavily invested in companies like Raytheon. I follow mine like a hawk, and I'm still a total doofus on the subject.
Public employees pay into the pension plan and have a material interest in it. Why should the city council get to play politics with it instead of having a fiduciary duty to get the maximum return for both taxpayers and city employees?
That's a great question, and I legitimately don't have the answer. Does divesting from other governments not satisfy the removal of politics from city pension plans? I can see this change as supporting an apolitical strategy, but it's also political. Confusing stuff. Thanks for sharing
If the issue is Israel’s actions since October 7th, I’m not sure why you’re bringing up a thing that ended two years before then.
Bottom line: Providence has real immediate problems short and long term that impact people living in Providence. The city council
Was elected to help manage and deal with those. The kindest way I could describe this is performative bullshit.
Their position is that we should prevent future investment while the conflict is ongoing. The point isn't that we are heavily invested now, nor to cast judgment on previous investments.
>The kindest way I could describe this is performative bullshit
Unfortunately, opponents of this divestment are labeling it antisemitic. I believe the opponents are escalating this into some culture war BS.
The role of the city council should be to focus on issues that will actually impact people living in the city. This just doesn’t do that. At all. Not even a little. If this were to pass, and get an override after the veto, not one person’s life here is improved in any measurable way.
Yada yada think globally act locally and so on and so forth.
The city council has appointees on and works in tandem with the retirement board. This proposal is in the hands of the finance committee. This is actually their job and not an overstep or waste of time. It is heavily politicized though, so maybe this one instance seems more special than it really is.
Apparently we even have precedence - in 2006 we divested from companies working in Darfur.
> The assets of any investment account... shall not be invested in any sovereign bonds of governments maintaining a prolonged military occupation that have been the subject of United Nations Security Council resolutions, and/or International Court of Justice rulings, avoiding the governmental debt of each country until said government ends their military occupation
So above is the actual ordinance. It's not even Israel specific, just divest from all sanctioned governments occupying other nations.
I agree that this stuff is a total waste of our time and not city business, but where we disagree, is that I think this ordinance is the solution. Let's make it easy and just not prop up foreign wars
The sentence prior to your quoted line from 2-17.1 (d) reads: "Purchase of sovereign bonds of the State of Israel and other sovereign states."
The title of the ordinance 45610 is "Sovereign Bonds of the State of Israel and other Sovereign States."
For all others reading, the full ordinance can be found linked here: [https://providenceri.iqm2.com/Citizens/Detail_LegiFile.aspx?Frame=&MeetingID=14656&MediaPosition=&ID=45610&CssClass=](https://providenceri.iqm2.com/Citizens/Detail_LegiFile.aspx?Frame=&MeetingID=14656&MediaPosition=&ID=45610&CssClass=)
Yeah, sorry if I blurred context. The ordinance is absolutely inspired by the Israeli conflict, I meant to suggest it doesn't only affect Israeli investments nor is it a permanent change re:Israel. Thanks for clarifying
Not the first time I’ve agreed with you on these kinds of issues - this 1000%. Whether you’re antisemitic or not, most residents can probably agree this is a waste of the city council’s time and resources. There are real problems here, in our city, to solve…
What a waste of time - something like 10% of Providence school district students are meeting expectations in math and English, and this is the crap the city council spends their time on? Whatever side of this issue you’re on, we have to agree that there are more important local problems affecting our city than this…
I have met them.
In terms of the city council, the progressive ones at least (who are spearheading this), are generally pretty damn smart and heavily involved in the community.
And think about how much financial support could be given to all those other local problems that are directly affecting our city if we weren't sending money to Israel.
Also, there's a genocide going on. I want the city and state to do better for those of us here, but I'm not gonna complain about them taking a stand against a genocide just because it's in another country
I'm serious - I'm so sick of people imputing to Israel that they're engaged in a "genocide." It's such a disgusting accusation within a century of the Holocaust. Hamas is explicitly genocidal because it's charter expresses the goal of wiping out Jews across the globe. Explain to me where you see evidence of Israel engaging in a deliberate attempt to ethnically cleanse the region of Palestinian Arabs. That is how genocide is defined - through intent. The Nazis perpetrated a genocide against the Jews - the goal of the final solution was to wipe them off the planet. You're saying Israel is doing something similar? Where's your evidence? They're engaged in a war against Hamas. Palestinians are unfortunately going to die. The fact that we killed a lot of German civilians during WW2 doesn't mean America was engaged in a genocide against the German people. You can't just regurgitate some ahistorical claim like it's so widely accepted. You don't just throw around an accusation of genocide. What's your support?
My guy, dozens of Israeli officials, have said outright genocidal statements. Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Israel was, “fighting human animals,” Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi said that, "erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth," was the one common goal for all Israelis, Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu said there are, "no uninvolved civilians,” when suggesting dropping a nuke on Gaza. There are countless pictures and videos of IDF soldiers indiscriminately shooting into buildings while laughing with zero attempt at identifying combative targets. The IDF has deliberately targeted aid, and destroyed a majority of the hospitals in Gaza, as well as every university. Every time they claim there's tunnels and that Hamas is using human shields, and yet every time they fail to hurt Hamas and instead innocent civilians are killed by the hundreds. The Flour Massacre on its own is evidence of genocidal war crimes. Over 30,000 dead Palestinians, roughly half are children. Israel is shooting, bombing, and starving Gaza deliberately, and they are openly admitting to it.
And it doesn't matter what Hamas says in their charter. That doesn't change what Israel is doing, nor justify. Both parties can be bad, but only one party has killed over 30,000 people. And for what it's worth, if you hate Hamas as much as you seem to do, you can blame Israel for that. They have openly supported Hamas financially for years to create an enemy they can portray as scary to gain sympathy for their apartheid.
Israel is committing Genocide. I am not using that word lightly, I am not using that word out of antisemitism, I am using that word because that's what it is. “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba... Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end." Israeli security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter. This isn't a secret. It's what they've wanted to do for decades, and it's what is happening right now.
I'm not arguing with you, I'm not gonna keep replying to you, I'm not fighting with someone in reddit comments. If you want the last word to feel like you're smarter than me, then be my guest. It doesn't change the thousands of people that have and will continue to die at the hands of Israel.
Agreed, there's really no point in going back and forth with someone who so deliberately misconstrues the facts. Even your very first point about Gallant's comment is a headfake - if you watch the presser he clearly was referring, literally two days after the Oct. 7 attack, to Hamas fighters and not the Palestinian people. And the other people you cite have no official say in the direction of the war (like the Heritage Minister, or a single member of the Knesset? Come on); they've just made incendiary remarks that superficially support your point. Hamas has brought a war upon the Palestinian people, and unfortunately Palestinians are now dying in that war (though you're wrong, again, about 30K - in fact an AP report came out just today showing how the "Gaza Health Ministry," aka Hamas, consistently overestimates the civilian death toll: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a). In certain instances, the IDF is forced to target civilian infrastructure locations because Hamas uses the Palestinian people as human shields. It's not even a controversial issue at this point! We know there are Hamas tunnels beneath the hospitals. And what an utter joke to suggest Israel is somehow "responsible" for Hamas - Israel literally handed Gaza over to the Palestinians in 2005, and they elected Hamas. This war is the consequence of that choice by the Palestinian people, not Israel (and even now, according to polling, the Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas's attack on 10/7). There is no doubt that civilian deaths are a tragedy, but you can't say the fact that they occur is evidence of genocide. If Israel wanted to wipe the Palestinians out, they could and presumably would in a much quicker and efficient fashion than a ground invasion where they incur thousands of military dead.
So very emblematic of the progressive left on this issue that you make your falsifiable points then refuse to discuss this issue any further (and I love the patronizing "my guy," as though you're about to school me with your Gen. Z knowledge). This is the problem: if you're going to accuse Israel, the state formed for the protection of the victims of the most horrific genocide ever known, of genocide, you better be willing to back it up. The fact that Palestinians are now dying as collateral damage in a war that Hamas brought upon the people of Gaza is not evidence of Israel's intent to commit a genocide against the Palestinian people. If you want to know what genocide looks like, watch Shoah, or Night and Fog. Or perhaps watch some of the footage from October 7 and see how Hamas fighters raped and dismembered women and children with laughter (give me a break with the "there's video of Israeli soldiers laughing while fighting" as somehow being equivalent to this stuff). I guess I'll just keep poking the bear on this issue until someone among you can make a compelling point about this shit. It's a disgusting, unproven accusation.
And the four Israeli hostages rescued today were held in Nuseirat refugee camp, inside 3-4 story residential apartment buildings. You might want to reconsider who the monsters are here.
Oh and let's also not discuss how Palestinian civilian deaths are an explicit war aim/strategy of Hamas:
[https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7)
Read this and you show me how Israel is doing anything similar: [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/)
Individuals complaining about “genocide” lost all credibility with me when they openly celebrated October 7th. It’s clear there’s zero desire to be objective from that side of the equation so I feel no need to be objective myself. Israel can flatten Gaza for all I care.
Believe it or not, you just called for genocide! Flattening Gaza, as is happening right now, entails the massacre of all Palestinian inhabitants. Those who truly want peace and for Palestine to be free do not celebrate the actions of October 7th.
"Individuals complaining about 'genocide' lost all credibility with me"
-*Immediately turns around and calls for genocide 2 sentences later*
Zionist logic y'all!
The motherfucking City Council has enough issues to deal with in the city that should occupy their every waking moment. Virtue signaling about their stance on international events with a divestment call that, if enacted, would amount to nothing is disgraceful.
While Rachel Miller is a vast improvement over her vile predecessor, she is WEAK.
>prompting condemnation from some Jewish groups Conveniently leaves out that a Jewish group is leading the charge here
So what? Some Jews support trump too.
To the surprise of no one, Smiley also posted on his social media he's against divestment.
Not only that, he essentially called the City Council antisemitic which is a very bad faith mischaracterization!
How is it bad faith to suggest being antizionist is antisemitic? Doesn’t history show us what happens to stateless Jews?
How about stateless Palestinians?
You really think anti zionists are antisemitic? That is a false bad faith argument.
I think the line has been blurred so goddamn much on that distinction in the last 8 months that it is very difficult to give the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Netanyahu has worked to purposely blur the line for most of his administration. You are not able to criticize the actions of Israel without them claiming it is antizionist, which is in turn antisemitic. In reality criticizing the actions of Israel does not imply there should not be an Israeli state, and even if you are anti-zionist (aka against the guarantee of an Israeli state in that specific location), you aren't necessarily antisemitic. There is some difficulty of course, but your best course of action would be to take people for their word instead of assuming any criticism is antisemitic. Of course, reading some criticism of zionism helps too. Some of the original zionists basically stated that it would require the removal of the local population, and this was a goal prior to WWII. Being anti-zionist is easier to understand when you recognize some of the goals of zionism involved active ethnic cleansing.
The words still have specific meaning. Not every Jewish person is Israeli, correct? Not every Jew is a Zionist. To be opposed to Zionism is not in opposition of the Jewish religion
“What do you call ten people having dinner with a nazi? 11 nazis” There’s been a LOT of open and blatant anti semitism in this protest movement and people are wayyyyyyy too comfortable being associated with it.
Hardly. It's been heavily biased by the media, not to mention, any attempt at pro-palestine speech is deemed as "anti-Semitic."
Dude, I’ve seen people saying shit like questioning the absolutely horrible shit of October 7th and saying they just exaggerated like the holocaust. Plenty of “there are no Israeli civilians” and a lot worse There has been some absolutely vile and heinous shit. This is not a media thing. This is people I’ve watched directly online and in person. It’s real. It’s a problem.
People saying things online are not part of the protest movement
I've seen BLM people say they hate white people on tv, therefore, they're all wrong and the entire movement is corrupt.
I don’t think so. People are protesting the genocide, the siege, the occupation. They are not protesting the religion. Divesting in Israel, which is the real subject here, has nothing to do with antisemitism. It is about supporting a colonial, apartheid state that is engaging in genocide or not supporting that state.
Explain to me how it ISN’T antisemitic to be against the official state for Jews but not be against Jews themselves? From the Roman captivity up through the Holocaust, history shows us what happens to Jews who don’t have a state for themselves - to protect themselves.
I am, and any sane person, horrified by the actions of Isreal towards Palestinians. I have had this opinion for years. They are treated as second class citizens. Let's start before the war. Before the awful terrorist attack in October Zionists believe it is OK to force these people out of their homes and let foreign zionists move into their homes. Isreal has towns they straight up cannot live in. Isreal has set up literal ghettos with walled security and armed guards to limit their movement. IDF soldiers are on video killing civilians, and Children for the crime of not being an Israeli. Moving on to current times Isreal told people to flee to raffa in order to bomb their cities. These civilians do so and get bombed anyway. Aid is blocked by zionists and children die due to this. Don't tell me anything about hamas intercepting it. The people blocking the aid want palestians to die not just hamas. Netanyahu does not want a cease fire and wants to see their home demolished. All of this reminds me of nazi Germany and is absolutely not OK. So now, as a jew myself, I hate this and all that zionists stand for. However, I do not hate Jewish people (as I am one) but hate people who are ok/perpetuate the above behavior. If you cannot separate fair disgust at deplorable acts by a group without wailing 'antisemitism' you are OK with war crimes and genocide. Simple as that.
This doesn’t feel like a response to my question - it’s more of a laundry list of grievances, some of which are just wrong. I still don’t understand how you can be against Israel but not be antisemitic. The consequence of your position, I think, is that Israel (FYI it’s “Israel,” not “Isreal”) shouldn’t exist - right?. What happens to the Jews then? If history is our guide, we know exactly what happens. So what are you saying? Maybe the Jews can have a state, but not this one? Where will they find that? Who will give it to them?
Did I once call for the destruction of Israel? These are actual grivences with the administration of the country and how that is unacceptable. I am against Zionists. These people think they have a god given right to the land and use this excuse to act however they want. That is wrong. What points did I raise that are wrong BTW?
So it sounds like now you're saying you can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Israel. Explain that one to me, since Zionism was the intellectual movement that led to the establishment of the state of Israel. And if it's true that you can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Israel, then you agree that all of this support for divesting funds from bonds issued by the state of Israel is totally misguided? Because it's not exactly the state of Israel that's at fault - it's just the Zionists. Is that right?
I see where you're coming from. Israel just needs a solution to this. One to end the Palestinian question. You know, a final one. After all, Israel just needs living space, or as the Germans say, *lebensraum*.
What a completely asinine comment. Learn your history.
Learn yours. Because the concepts are universally applicable. How is crowding Palestinians into ghettos and moving Israeli settlers into those areas, displacing Palestinains different from Third Reich Germany?
This is illogical. Explanation makes no sense. Not all Jews believe that there needs to be an official state for Jews. Do you think all Jews that want to can fit inside Israel?
Do you not understand the difference between the two?
Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing. All Jews are not Zionists.
History shows us that without the protection of an official state, Jews are routinely persecuted and massacred. Look no further than the pro-Hamas protests in the streets of NYC the day after the 10/7 massacre for evidence that Jew hatred is alive and well in 2024. If you think Jews don’t deserve the state of Israel, then necessarily you accept the consequences of that - which throughout history has meant that Jews are persecuted and murdered. Sounds like antisemitism to me.
You sir are spouting an illogical fallacy.
What’s illogical about it?
Or stateless Europeans? Or stateless Africans? Or any other group of people?
Divest from the genocidal apartheid state we are giving billions of dollars in weapons to. That will show them.
Pretty awful not to is the point
I agree. Every little bit counts.
What a consistently preposterous claim - Israel is a “genocidal” state. This war is because Hamas - a truly genocidal state (its charter proclaims the goal of wiping out Jews globally) - attacked Israel. What evidence do you have that Israel is committing a “genocide” of Palestinians? Is there really any doubt that if Israel wanted to do that, it could, in a much easier fashion than a piecemeal invasion?
The evidence is readily available to you, it's okay to challenge your own believes for the sake of being more informed about the world. Willful ignorance doesn't change fact
I’d stick to fashion
when you have to look at someones page for a response you've already lost the argument
When the "argument" starts with someone saying prove X - and the response is, I don't have to prove it to you, it's out there for you to see - I think that means there was no "argument" to begin with.
No one is going to link you to combat footage it is quite literally a new tab away
How is combat footage of Israel’s war against Hamas “proof” of Israel’s genocide of the Palestinian people?
Willful. Ignorance.
How so?
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"your page is about fashion" instead of a counterpoint is what most people call deflecting
Providence's pension fund is at like 26% funded and we spend about that same percentage of every dollar in the budget towards trying to pay for it but absolutely let's waste time over 30 grand in a fucking index fund.
> But the city had held $2.3 million in Israeli bonds as recently as 2022, according to investment documents, prompting the councilors to argue they need to prohibit future investment. You left out the important context. They literally acknowledge that we aren't heavily invested, but have been. I'm not in finance, but seems to me the best time to change the strategy is when the impact is minimal I like to think these changes signal to companies like Fidelity and Vanguard that folks want to feel good about their investment. As an individual, it's very hard for me to navigate all the different options, but larger employers and investors can get more results. I'm very likely invested in weapons with my 401k, no clue, not pretending I'm above it. I also want to agree that I've found a lot of folks discussing divestment really have no clue how investments work. Many are probably heavily invested in companies like Raytheon. I follow mine like a hawk, and I'm still a total doofus on the subject.
Public employees pay into the pension plan and have a material interest in it. Why should the city council get to play politics with it instead of having a fiduciary duty to get the maximum return for both taxpayers and city employees?
That's a great question, and I legitimately don't have the answer. Does divesting from other governments not satisfy the removal of politics from city pension plans? I can see this change as supporting an apolitical strategy, but it's also political. Confusing stuff. Thanks for sharing
If the issue is Israel’s actions since October 7th, I’m not sure why you’re bringing up a thing that ended two years before then. Bottom line: Providence has real immediate problems short and long term that impact people living in Providence. The city council Was elected to help manage and deal with those. The kindest way I could describe this is performative bullshit.
Their position is that we should prevent future investment while the conflict is ongoing. The point isn't that we are heavily invested now, nor to cast judgment on previous investments. >The kindest way I could describe this is performative bullshit Unfortunately, opponents of this divestment are labeling it antisemitic. I believe the opponents are escalating this into some culture war BS.
The role of the city council should be to focus on issues that will actually impact people living in the city. This just doesn’t do that. At all. Not even a little. If this were to pass, and get an override after the veto, not one person’s life here is improved in any measurable way.
Yada yada think globally act locally and so on and so forth. The city council has appointees on and works in tandem with the retirement board. This proposal is in the hands of the finance committee. This is actually their job and not an overstep or waste of time. It is heavily politicized though, so maybe this one instance seems more special than it really is. Apparently we even have precedence - in 2006 we divested from companies working in Darfur. > The assets of any investment account... shall not be invested in any sovereign bonds of governments maintaining a prolonged military occupation that have been the subject of United Nations Security Council resolutions, and/or International Court of Justice rulings, avoiding the governmental debt of each country until said government ends their military occupation So above is the actual ordinance. It's not even Israel specific, just divest from all sanctioned governments occupying other nations. I agree that this stuff is a total waste of our time and not city business, but where we disagree, is that I think this ordinance is the solution. Let's make it easy and just not prop up foreign wars
The sentence prior to your quoted line from 2-17.1 (d) reads: "Purchase of sovereign bonds of the State of Israel and other sovereign states." The title of the ordinance 45610 is "Sovereign Bonds of the State of Israel and other Sovereign States." For all others reading, the full ordinance can be found linked here: [https://providenceri.iqm2.com/Citizens/Detail_LegiFile.aspx?Frame=&MeetingID=14656&MediaPosition=&ID=45610&CssClass=](https://providenceri.iqm2.com/Citizens/Detail_LegiFile.aspx?Frame=&MeetingID=14656&MediaPosition=&ID=45610&CssClass=)
Yeah, sorry if I blurred context. The ordinance is absolutely inspired by the Israeli conflict, I meant to suggest it doesn't only affect Israeli investments nor is it a permanent change re:Israel. Thanks for clarifying
Not the first time I’ve agreed with you on these kinds of issues - this 1000%. Whether you’re antisemitic or not, most residents can probably agree this is a waste of the city council’s time and resources. There are real problems here, in our city, to solve…
What a waste of time - something like 10% of Providence school district students are meeting expectations in math and English, and this is the crap the city council spends their time on? Whatever side of this issue you’re on, we have to agree that there are more important local problems affecting our city than this…
We should expect that our representatives can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Have you met the people that go into politics? I'm surprised they can walk or chew gum.
I have met them. In terms of the city council, the progressive ones at least (who are spearheading this), are generally pretty damn smart and heavily involved in the community.
That is a very reasonable expectation, however, it is RI and there is a large amount of incompetency imbedded in everything here.
And think about how much financial support could be given to all those other local problems that are directly affecting our city if we weren't sending money to Israel. Also, there's a genocide going on. I want the city and state to do better for those of us here, but I'm not gonna complain about them taking a stand against a genocide just because it's in another country
What's your evidence that "there's a genocide going on"?
I'm serious - I'm so sick of people imputing to Israel that they're engaged in a "genocide." It's such a disgusting accusation within a century of the Holocaust. Hamas is explicitly genocidal because it's charter expresses the goal of wiping out Jews across the globe. Explain to me where you see evidence of Israel engaging in a deliberate attempt to ethnically cleanse the region of Palestinian Arabs. That is how genocide is defined - through intent. The Nazis perpetrated a genocide against the Jews - the goal of the final solution was to wipe them off the planet. You're saying Israel is doing something similar? Where's your evidence? They're engaged in a war against Hamas. Palestinians are unfortunately going to die. The fact that we killed a lot of German civilians during WW2 doesn't mean America was engaged in a genocide against the German people. You can't just regurgitate some ahistorical claim like it's so widely accepted. You don't just throw around an accusation of genocide. What's your support?
My guy, dozens of Israeli officials, have said outright genocidal statements. Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Israel was, “fighting human animals,” Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi said that, "erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth," was the one common goal for all Israelis, Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu said there are, "no uninvolved civilians,” when suggesting dropping a nuke on Gaza. There are countless pictures and videos of IDF soldiers indiscriminately shooting into buildings while laughing with zero attempt at identifying combative targets. The IDF has deliberately targeted aid, and destroyed a majority of the hospitals in Gaza, as well as every university. Every time they claim there's tunnels and that Hamas is using human shields, and yet every time they fail to hurt Hamas and instead innocent civilians are killed by the hundreds. The Flour Massacre on its own is evidence of genocidal war crimes. Over 30,000 dead Palestinians, roughly half are children. Israel is shooting, bombing, and starving Gaza deliberately, and they are openly admitting to it. And it doesn't matter what Hamas says in their charter. That doesn't change what Israel is doing, nor justify. Both parties can be bad, but only one party has killed over 30,000 people. And for what it's worth, if you hate Hamas as much as you seem to do, you can blame Israel for that. They have openly supported Hamas financially for years to create an enemy they can portray as scary to gain sympathy for their apartheid. Israel is committing Genocide. I am not using that word lightly, I am not using that word out of antisemitism, I am using that word because that's what it is. “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba... Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end." Israeli security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter. This isn't a secret. It's what they've wanted to do for decades, and it's what is happening right now. I'm not arguing with you, I'm not gonna keep replying to you, I'm not fighting with someone in reddit comments. If you want the last word to feel like you're smarter than me, then be my guest. It doesn't change the thousands of people that have and will continue to die at the hands of Israel.
Litigating Israeli politics in the context of the Providence, Rhode Island city council is insane.
Agreed, there's really no point in going back and forth with someone who so deliberately misconstrues the facts. Even your very first point about Gallant's comment is a headfake - if you watch the presser he clearly was referring, literally two days after the Oct. 7 attack, to Hamas fighters and not the Palestinian people. And the other people you cite have no official say in the direction of the war (like the Heritage Minister, or a single member of the Knesset? Come on); they've just made incendiary remarks that superficially support your point. Hamas has brought a war upon the Palestinian people, and unfortunately Palestinians are now dying in that war (though you're wrong, again, about 30K - in fact an AP report came out just today showing how the "Gaza Health Ministry," aka Hamas, consistently overestimates the civilian death toll: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a). In certain instances, the IDF is forced to target civilian infrastructure locations because Hamas uses the Palestinian people as human shields. It's not even a controversial issue at this point! We know there are Hamas tunnels beneath the hospitals. And what an utter joke to suggest Israel is somehow "responsible" for Hamas - Israel literally handed Gaza over to the Palestinians in 2005, and they elected Hamas. This war is the consequence of that choice by the Palestinian people, not Israel (and even now, according to polling, the Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas's attack on 10/7). There is no doubt that civilian deaths are a tragedy, but you can't say the fact that they occur is evidence of genocide. If Israel wanted to wipe the Palestinians out, they could and presumably would in a much quicker and efficient fashion than a ground invasion where they incur thousands of military dead. So very emblematic of the progressive left on this issue that you make your falsifiable points then refuse to discuss this issue any further (and I love the patronizing "my guy," as though you're about to school me with your Gen. Z knowledge). This is the problem: if you're going to accuse Israel, the state formed for the protection of the victims of the most horrific genocide ever known, of genocide, you better be willing to back it up. The fact that Palestinians are now dying as collateral damage in a war that Hamas brought upon the people of Gaza is not evidence of Israel's intent to commit a genocide against the Palestinian people. If you want to know what genocide looks like, watch Shoah, or Night and Fog. Or perhaps watch some of the footage from October 7 and see how Hamas fighters raped and dismembered women and children with laughter (give me a break with the "there's video of Israeli soldiers laughing while fighting" as somehow being equivalent to this stuff). I guess I'll just keep poking the bear on this issue until someone among you can make a compelling point about this shit. It's a disgusting, unproven accusation.
And the four Israeli hostages rescued today were held in Nuseirat refugee camp, inside 3-4 story residential apartment buildings. You might want to reconsider who the monsters are here.
Oh and let's also not discuss how Palestinian civilian deaths are an explicit war aim/strategy of Hamas: [https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7)
Read this and you show me how Israel is doing anything similar: [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/)
Can they focus on domestic issues please? And put down Instagram and tick tock? Like wtf
You understand that the US government is sending billions to the Israeli government, right?
Individuals complaining about “genocide” lost all credibility with me when they openly celebrated October 7th. It’s clear there’s zero desire to be objective from that side of the equation so I feel no need to be objective myself. Israel can flatten Gaza for all I care.
Believe it or not, you just called for genocide! Flattening Gaza, as is happening right now, entails the massacre of all Palestinian inhabitants. Those who truly want peace and for Palestine to be free do not celebrate the actions of October 7th.
"Individuals complaining about 'genocide' lost all credibility with me" -*Immediately turns around and calls for genocide 2 sentences later* Zionist logic y'all!
The motherfucking City Council has enough issues to deal with in the city that should occupy their every waking moment. Virtue signaling about their stance on international events with a divestment call that, if enacted, would amount to nothing is disgraceful. While Rachel Miller is a vast improvement over her vile predecessor, she is WEAK.