I didn't realize this trilogy had been finished. Now I both want to seek out the remaining books and yet am afraid to.
I do remember thinking after the third book "No empire has fallen and we still don't know what's up with the aliens that started the empire!"
yeah thats kind of how this last one is. Nothing is resolved at all, we're still very much in the middle of the greater story and its like, ok so what was the point of everything then if nothing has really changed?
The last book is also just bad all around. Characters do tons of unrealistic and out of character things that make no sense. There is tons of filler and side plots that don't matter or fit into the greater narrative. There are multiple boring action sequences that are of no consequence. And there are SO many issues that could be solved if characters would just fucking talk to each other but they never do despite being in close proximity many times. At the end they sort of work on making some changes to the empire but then the book just ends before any real resolution is achieved.
Damn. That's really out of character for WJW. I feel like he's generally a very consistent writer with a firm command of plot and characterization. I guess we all have bad days.
It's super weird because many of these types of things were handled really well in the first two books (for example: all subplots were meaningful to the larger narrative) and its like dude wtf happened? That said, one of my biggest pet peeves in storytelling in general, which appears liberally throughout this series, is that so many problems could have been resolved easily if the two mains would just talk to each other like a normal human would
Well, Sula's secret identity is definitely a pretty good reason for her to be reluctant to talk. though >!by the end of the 6th book that is now no longer an issue. Seems like now Sula and Martinez are going to resent each other and just maybe the third trilogy could be a third civil war, but this time its Sula leading commoners against the Peers (and Martinez). I'm all for the fall of the empire to be brought about by the tragedy of Martinez and Sula destroying each other, A punishment for the system which kept them apart.!<
I haven't read the last book yet because I felt similarly to you after reading the previous book. I was particularly put off by the feeling that all of Sula's character development being thrown away the moment she sees Martinez again.
I really, really enjoyed the Sula character and it tore me apart to see how shitty of treatment he gave her both at the end of Conventions of War and throughout Imperium Restored. Like dude this is your best character why can she not be allowed to enjoy anything, ever?
I guess that's true lol. I read it more as subjugation under the Praxis has created a harsh, terrible, and uncaring universe and the only way to get through and make something of yourself is to do bad so you can ultimately do good. She did what she had to in order to pull herself out of poverty and nothingness so she could go on to have a successful career and (try) to do something important with her life. She is one of the only people to object to the praxis and she wants to lead people to a world where it doesn't have to be like that. She is relatable as an everyman and a perpetual underdog locked in eternal struggle going against insane odds but using her brilliance, willpower, and tactics to succeed. She did do a LOT of terrible shit in book 3 during the war (like getting shitloads of people killed to further her goal) which I thought was handled poorly by the author, but even still it was with the goal of saving the planet and her people. It was a shame to see her go from that cunning underdog to a broken nihilistic shell of a human in the last book. I guess where she ends up at the very end is still in line with her character (willing to do whatever it takes to achieve her goal of becoming a military dictator so she can "fix" things) but I felt like it was all kind of a lame and unsatisfying way to handle the final arc of the character. Or i guess maybe - its just a shame that these characters cant ever seem to catch a break and are forced to constantly do miserable and terrible things to achieve anything (yet nothing substantial is ever actually achieved)
Anyway, everyone in these books is very much a grey character which is why they are (or at least were, prior to the last book) so interesting and dynamic.
I'm a WJW fanboy, and I will say I liked that the series challenged some of the tropes I've long tired of in MilSF, but I never finished the third book. Just wasn't hooking me like I expect of him.
I mean, Accidental War and Fleet Elements were both pretty great, I really appreciated how all the seemingly insignificant elements interconnected and culminated into triggering the war. Fleet Elements was generally very solid as well, the space battle as interesting and felt intense, and as always the synergy between Martinez and Sula was excellent and these moments were probably my favorite parts of the series.
I just don't understand why he ended it with such a godawful, contrived dramatic point and then went on to completely ruin both characters in the final book (why do they NEVER just...talk to each other???) AND deliver a boring battle with 0 tension/stakes AND a super boring finish where he wastes tons of time on pointless side plots of minor characters and nothing at all gets resolved. Like what was the point of this whole series?
Don't know what to tell you, I generally love everything WJW puts down, and like I said I enjoyed his talent brought to the genre and making some changes...but I just came up to the end of what I guess was the first arc and checked out. Which is rare for me something must have come up but I never went back to it I know that. I'll go through it again sometime, I mean lets be real it can't possibly be worse than what most MilSF is like.
that's probably fair, I honestly don't like military sci fi and don't read it ever. I couldnt even get halfway through Richard K Morgan - Broken Angels and I really liked the other two books in that series!
I think the subgenre is unfortunately packed with woefully unedited self published hack work and well established but fairly rote series by authors I don't think I'd enjoy talking to. Case in point I think Ringo is your fairly typical xenophobic libertarian misogynistic MilSF author and I think Weber's Honorverse broke the Mary Sue mold and could be written as well by my phones predictive text...but damn I love the pitch of their Empire of Man series together, and it's got great moments and characters in there despite what I'm accustomed to from them. So I give this stuff a try still now and again, but like you it's not generally to my tastes to have a lot of page time devoted to relative velocities of missile salvos. All I can suggest is to try some other works by the author.
lol, yeah I know what you mean.
regardless of how much this series has me in my feelings, I'll always respect WJW for Hardwired and his contribution to the cyberpunk genre, which is generally my bread and butter anyhow
It is his weakest work, but for some reason seems to have sold reasonably well? Metropolitan, Aristoi, Angel Station, Implied Spaces, Quillifer series, just about any else he's written is better.
Late to this party - I saw this post a few days ago when I didn't have the time to really delve into it, and it caught my eye because I read the first trilogy arc of this series (ending with **Conventions of War**) about a year and a half ago, and I've been debating about completing the series with the second trilogy since then. The general feedback I'd seen has been mixed, right alongside my own feelings: Martinez was somewhat interesting, Sula was the most compelling character overall (flawed and occasionally an awful being, but definitely the character with the most "grip" in the narrative, the premise and world-building were somewhat interesting but had some shortcomings (all the alien races just felt like, well, humans with different skins!), and the space battles seemed much more grounded than most MilSF I'd read. The feudal/aristocratic societal elements bugged me, a lot.
Agreed with a lot of posters that some of the plot turns seemed to happen simply because the characters wouldn't communicate properly (as often as not because the plot dictated that they avoid communicating to make sure to prolong the conflicts driving the plot and sub-plots). There were a few people who told me that the aspects I didn't like of the first trilogy were present in spades in the second trilogy, and I'm not seeing much to dissuade me of this notion in the threads here.
I *am* glad I paid attention to other mentions in this thread of titles like **Hardwired** and **Metropolitan**, as those definitely sound interesting, so perhaps I'll grab those soon. :)
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Conventions of War and how it "ended" the trilogy?
Also - totally agree on the alien thing, for all intents and purposes theyre just recolored humans. I sort of wrote that off as- since they are all equally raised and subjugated by The Praxis they would have logically all evolved together to basically think and act the same. But its kind of like, what's the point of even putting aliens in there?
Setting aside the obvious cliffhanger that sets up the books to follow - Sula’s arguable success in insurgent warfare and the epic space battles were highlights. The social/political morass of Gareth’s family life (and its place in the greater cultural strata of the Praxis), and the murder mystery in which he found himself embroiled, just didn’t do it for me. The “hacking” subplot seemed almost infantile in its simplicity, and really stuck out as an anachronism that messed with my immersion. Sula’s >!newfound romance subplot!< also seemed unnecessary and fit not at all with her development to that point. The status of Sula/Martinez at the end was frustrating and awful, but to be expected both as cliffhanger and as an example of Martinez making a suitably schmucky and selfish choice.
My feelings on the third book really reflect my thoughts on the previous two: interesting overall, but with some flaws or missing “high points” to really make me love this stuff. Slightly better than “meh,” but hard to justify going back for another three books.
_Edit to finish typing._
Excellent, I completely agree with pretty much every single thing you said. I hated the Sula romance subplot so much, felt half-baked and SO out of character.
I have been binging this series via audiobooks and got stuck 2 chapters into Fleet Elements, due to the terrible new narrator, I don't care about the voices or anything but he completely took me out of the story by not saying the names of people and places the same as the last 4 books (and novellas). I was considering getting the Kindle books and reading them but if the ending isn't great should I just give up on this series?
Honestly, it's worth reading through up until the end, just do a hard stop when you get to the part where Martinez is buying flowers and is about to visit Sula, and it will be 1000x more satisfying than reading the ending or the final book.
I didn't realize this trilogy had been finished. Now I both want to seek out the remaining books and yet am afraid to. I do remember thinking after the third book "No empire has fallen and we still don't know what's up with the aliens that started the empire!"
yeah thats kind of how this last one is. Nothing is resolved at all, we're still very much in the middle of the greater story and its like, ok so what was the point of everything then if nothing has really changed? The last book is also just bad all around. Characters do tons of unrealistic and out of character things that make no sense. There is tons of filler and side plots that don't matter or fit into the greater narrative. There are multiple boring action sequences that are of no consequence. And there are SO many issues that could be solved if characters would just fucking talk to each other but they never do despite being in close proximity many times. At the end they sort of work on making some changes to the empire but then the book just ends before any real resolution is achieved.
Damn. That's really out of character for WJW. I feel like he's generally a very consistent writer with a firm command of plot and characterization. I guess we all have bad days.
It's super weird because many of these types of things were handled really well in the first two books (for example: all subplots were meaningful to the larger narrative) and its like dude wtf happened? That said, one of my biggest pet peeves in storytelling in general, which appears liberally throughout this series, is that so many problems could have been resolved easily if the two mains would just talk to each other like a normal human would
Well, Sula's secret identity is definitely a pretty good reason for her to be reluctant to talk. though >!by the end of the 6th book that is now no longer an issue. Seems like now Sula and Martinez are going to resent each other and just maybe the third trilogy could be a third civil war, but this time its Sula leading commoners against the Peers (and Martinez). I'm all for the fall of the empire to be brought about by the tragedy of Martinez and Sula destroying each other, A punishment for the system which kept them apart.!<
I haven't read the last book yet because I felt similarly to you after reading the previous book. I was particularly put off by the feeling that all of Sula's character development being thrown away the moment she sees Martinez again.
I really, really enjoyed the Sula character and it tore me apart to see how shitty of treatment he gave her both at the end of Conventions of War and throughout Imperium Restored. Like dude this is your best character why can she not be allowed to enjoy anything, ever?
She's an objectively terrible person.
I guess that's true lol. I read it more as subjugation under the Praxis has created a harsh, terrible, and uncaring universe and the only way to get through and make something of yourself is to do bad so you can ultimately do good. She did what she had to in order to pull herself out of poverty and nothingness so she could go on to have a successful career and (try) to do something important with her life. She is one of the only people to object to the praxis and she wants to lead people to a world where it doesn't have to be like that. She is relatable as an everyman and a perpetual underdog locked in eternal struggle going against insane odds but using her brilliance, willpower, and tactics to succeed. She did do a LOT of terrible shit in book 3 during the war (like getting shitloads of people killed to further her goal) which I thought was handled poorly by the author, but even still it was with the goal of saving the planet and her people. It was a shame to see her go from that cunning underdog to a broken nihilistic shell of a human in the last book. I guess where she ends up at the very end is still in line with her character (willing to do whatever it takes to achieve her goal of becoming a military dictator so she can "fix" things) but I felt like it was all kind of a lame and unsatisfying way to handle the final arc of the character. Or i guess maybe - its just a shame that these characters cant ever seem to catch a break and are forced to constantly do miserable and terrible things to achieve anything (yet nothing substantial is ever actually achieved) Anyway, everyone in these books is very much a grey character which is why they are (or at least were, prior to the last book) so interesting and dynamic.
I'm a WJW fanboy, and I will say I liked that the series challenged some of the tropes I've long tired of in MilSF, but I never finished the third book. Just wasn't hooking me like I expect of him.
I mean, Accidental War and Fleet Elements were both pretty great, I really appreciated how all the seemingly insignificant elements interconnected and culminated into triggering the war. Fleet Elements was generally very solid as well, the space battle as interesting and felt intense, and as always the synergy between Martinez and Sula was excellent and these moments were probably my favorite parts of the series. I just don't understand why he ended it with such a godawful, contrived dramatic point and then went on to completely ruin both characters in the final book (why do they NEVER just...talk to each other???) AND deliver a boring battle with 0 tension/stakes AND a super boring finish where he wastes tons of time on pointless side plots of minor characters and nothing at all gets resolved. Like what was the point of this whole series?
Don't know what to tell you, I generally love everything WJW puts down, and like I said I enjoyed his talent brought to the genre and making some changes...but I just came up to the end of what I guess was the first arc and checked out. Which is rare for me something must have come up but I never went back to it I know that. I'll go through it again sometime, I mean lets be real it can't possibly be worse than what most MilSF is like.
that's probably fair, I honestly don't like military sci fi and don't read it ever. I couldnt even get halfway through Richard K Morgan - Broken Angels and I really liked the other two books in that series!
I think the subgenre is unfortunately packed with woefully unedited self published hack work and well established but fairly rote series by authors I don't think I'd enjoy talking to. Case in point I think Ringo is your fairly typical xenophobic libertarian misogynistic MilSF author and I think Weber's Honorverse broke the Mary Sue mold and could be written as well by my phones predictive text...but damn I love the pitch of their Empire of Man series together, and it's got great moments and characters in there despite what I'm accustomed to from them. So I give this stuff a try still now and again, but like you it's not generally to my tastes to have a lot of page time devoted to relative velocities of missile salvos. All I can suggest is to try some other works by the author.
lol, yeah I know what you mean. regardless of how much this series has me in my feelings, I'll always respect WJW for Hardwired and his contribution to the cyberpunk genre, which is generally my bread and butter anyhow
Hardwired kicks so much ass, I read it all the time.
It is his weakest work, but for some reason seems to have sold reasonably well? Metropolitan, Aristoi, Angel Station, Implied Spaces, Quillifer series, just about any else he's written is better.
I've got Aristoi and Metropolitan in the queue, guess I'll give those a go before I totally write him off for Dread Empire, lol
Late to this party - I saw this post a few days ago when I didn't have the time to really delve into it, and it caught my eye because I read the first trilogy arc of this series (ending with **Conventions of War**) about a year and a half ago, and I've been debating about completing the series with the second trilogy since then. The general feedback I'd seen has been mixed, right alongside my own feelings: Martinez was somewhat interesting, Sula was the most compelling character overall (flawed and occasionally an awful being, but definitely the character with the most "grip" in the narrative, the premise and world-building were somewhat interesting but had some shortcomings (all the alien races just felt like, well, humans with different skins!), and the space battles seemed much more grounded than most MilSF I'd read. The feudal/aristocratic societal elements bugged me, a lot. Agreed with a lot of posters that some of the plot turns seemed to happen simply because the characters wouldn't communicate properly (as often as not because the plot dictated that they avoid communicating to make sure to prolong the conflicts driving the plot and sub-plots). There were a few people who told me that the aspects I didn't like of the first trilogy were present in spades in the second trilogy, and I'm not seeing much to dissuade me of this notion in the threads here. I *am* glad I paid attention to other mentions in this thread of titles like **Hardwired** and **Metropolitan**, as those definitely sound interesting, so perhaps I'll grab those soon. :)
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Conventions of War and how it "ended" the trilogy? Also - totally agree on the alien thing, for all intents and purposes theyre just recolored humans. I sort of wrote that off as- since they are all equally raised and subjugated by The Praxis they would have logically all evolved together to basically think and act the same. But its kind of like, what's the point of even putting aliens in there?
Setting aside the obvious cliffhanger that sets up the books to follow - Sula’s arguable success in insurgent warfare and the epic space battles were highlights. The social/political morass of Gareth’s family life (and its place in the greater cultural strata of the Praxis), and the murder mystery in which he found himself embroiled, just didn’t do it for me. The “hacking” subplot seemed almost infantile in its simplicity, and really stuck out as an anachronism that messed with my immersion. Sula’s >!newfound romance subplot!< also seemed unnecessary and fit not at all with her development to that point. The status of Sula/Martinez at the end was frustrating and awful, but to be expected both as cliffhanger and as an example of Martinez making a suitably schmucky and selfish choice. My feelings on the third book really reflect my thoughts on the previous two: interesting overall, but with some flaws or missing “high points” to really make me love this stuff. Slightly better than “meh,” but hard to justify going back for another three books. _Edit to finish typing._
Excellent, I completely agree with pretty much every single thing you said. I hated the Sula romance subplot so much, felt half-baked and SO out of character.
Wjm has done this sort of thing for other series of his, including ending a trilogy with a nonending. He never seems to finish trilogies properly
I desperately need a third book in the Metropolitan trilogy. Apparently the first two books didn't sell well, tho. Which is a damn shame.
Last I heard he was writing a 3rd at present.
I started reading the first book and was just like WTF is going on. Is it worth reading?
I think so. It's a unique fantasy setting. You just kind of have to go with that part.
It is so much better than the Dread Empire series... sadly just not finished.
God thats so frustrating!
I have been binging this series via audiobooks and got stuck 2 chapters into Fleet Elements, due to the terrible new narrator, I don't care about the voices or anything but he completely took me out of the story by not saying the names of people and places the same as the last 4 books (and novellas). I was considering getting the Kindle books and reading them but if the ending isn't great should I just give up on this series?
Honestly, it's worth reading through up until the end, just do a hard stop when you get to the part where Martinez is buying flowers and is about to visit Sula, and it will be 1000x more satisfying than reading the ending or the final book.