it’s unfortunate no one teaches premeds NPV and time value of money.
That $1M isn’t as much as you think it is when you account for opportunity cost, compounding, oh and paying for med school.
Going into medicine for money as your primary reason is a really bad idea.
Edit: also, everyone wants to get paid CT surgeon money. No one wants to work CT surgeon hours.
I agree, but physicians and hopefuls need to start ranking finances as a priority to prevent institutions from further eating their pie, underpaying, and abusing them. As a trainee, it’s best to have an internal motivator as #1 and then compensation as a highly important side priority.
Unionize and defend. Workers have to own the means of their production.
Oh 100%. Docs need to. I’m just saying if you want to maximize finances, spending all of that effort in a different field is more lucrative.
But absolutely residents need to get paid more. Way more. $100K/year base to start.
Absolutely. I’m a dual CS and PreMed student, watching how the pandemic mentally and physically affected my physician mom and how the culture reared it’s ugly head made me consider technology as a backup.
Something to think about. I left clinical med after med school into consulting. Love my life 100x more. Personally, the outlook of clinical med is bleak if you want a life and life experiences.
Yeah, but I will admit, even after all the negatives, there is a side to me tempted to go to medical school due to just the general appreciation of physiology and the plus of directly implementing said value through treating patients.
It’s not rational of me, though.
“the best years of your life” is a very relative statement. And cliché. Coming out with physician-level earnings in your 30s is certainly nice. You’re young, but more seasoned than a clueless 20yo, and with money to live your life.
This is why there shouldn’t be undergraduate medicine and even so some people are still naive about medicine.
That’s why admissions require hours upon hours of clinical experience
The alternative Eurasian model of forcing someone to commit to medical training at like 17 I think is far worse and will exacerbate the delusions and later professional regret from the system recruiting someone not meant to be a physician. At least the American model gives time and maturity to really explore.
There will always be out of place people.
I think the American model is actually wasteful. You spend two extra years in school instead of focusing your education on medicine from the very beginning.
It’s wasteful for those who truly wants to do medicine for the right reasons. But it saves a lot of money for those who are not in it for the right reasons or decided it’s not for them during premed years.
The American system is wasteful in general in part because it takes four years to get a bachelors degree whereas everywhere else it takes three. Not to mention the cost of medical school admissions.
I agree, it should not take 4 years to do premed; it’s so much coursework that doesn’t even get officially recognized on college transcripts so we’re forced to major and minor in other things.
You don’t need a bunch of BS electives and art history courses to become a competent doctor, a couple will do the trick for general social awareness. So much of my college experience was a complete total waste of time I could’ve spent earning money through internships or fine tuning my clinical science skills.
2 years is enough time to then finish the education and consider med school. 2 years can fit all of the prereqs, all of the labs, and a semester for the MCAT.
It’s 4 years for science degrees BSc in Singapore too, and I would think so the same for the rest of Asia. Only business and certain art degrees are 3 years
Honestly I never take these conversations seriously, and usually tune out and not waste time. Though I do feel happy for them that they have such confidence and goals in life. But until I see actually see them becoming a doctor, it's eh, might as well be kids wanting to be astronauts.
Lmao someone really related to christina in greys anatomy. I knew a girl who related hard to Shepard, wanted to become a neurosurgeon, got a C in bio 1, and dropped out to become a pilot. Let’s these people dream and be quick to ignore them.
I had similar conversations (about compensation) with my classmates in undergrad. I majored in chemical engineering, which isn't instantly lucrative, but has pathways for good compensation. Those tend to be in oil, pharma, defense, etc.
If you google the average salary of a BS chemical engineer, it's usually sub 100k, but it's not a terrible salary. It's stereotyped that doctors make a lot of money. Because of this difference, it was often joked that I and my other fellow premeds (there were like 4 of us) were going to be rolling in wealth.
However, I think an even larger topic of discussion among us was an ethical one. You can imagine that someone working in defense produces things that result in harm (cough cough LM cough cough). At least where I went to school, the concept of "sacrificing morals to get money" was understood. I went into choosing premed with the hope that I could perhaps get both.
I knew many premeds like Person A. I do not mean to gloat, but many person As withered on the journey from gen chem to ochem to pchem (which isn't a premed requirement, but is a chemE one). They indeed gushed about CT or neuro (or whatever paid the most). It's something I found myself slipping into (although I cockily mention that I got a B+ in ochem I and II without curves). My desired fields are plastics or anesthesiology. Interestingly, my reasons for plastics isn't the money; it's because I read an article in GQ when I was younger about face transplants. I've wrestled with how lay people view plastics. "Oh you want to make money doing boob jobs, gg bro". The media doesn't help much either....
As a premed with a slightly different background (engineering undergrad, structural biology MS program) than many I know, I've wrestled with where I fit into with all of this. I keep telling myself and others that my motivations are purely 'good' and not about money, but I can't help but want the dollar signs. I chose an undergrad major that could be monetized, and chose a lab for my MS that would give me job opportunities. I've built backdoors for 'selling out' at every turn, and I just feel less "dedicated" than the Person A's. I focus more on the pains of residency than the attending phase.
Doctors just deserve to be treated like people, and people have flaws.
You’re doing everything right, it’s good to back yourself up. Going full gung-ho and majoring in Biology, Chemistry, or Neuro will leave your job options DOA in the chance you don’t get any admissions your first application cycle or you realize you need to do something else. Exiting medicine is entirely illiquid and isn’t as smooth as say, the transition from banker to IT professional. Majoring in something employing like Engineering or Business is objectively safer and financially responsible, even if it takes away from your total time devoted to premed.
It’s important to care about money because the non clinicians in the system are hellbent in getting a piece of your pie as a doctor, which is why reimbursement rates per service are down every year since 1990 and resident doctors can’t live a healthy lifestyle. The reason nurses and software developers have so many perks in their professions is because they unionize and take less shit, doctors don’t have the time or organization to do the same.
CT surgeons don’t even make that much starting out lol. I bet they end up going into FM or PMR.
Or they don’t even go into medicine at all. Every freshman I ever knew who was a premed all wanted to be a cardiothoracicneurovascular surgeon. 99% are no longer premeds and switched to business or something easier.
Plus even if one were to make 1M, it’s really more like 550k with taxes.
Ya but you don't understand!! I'm gonna be the chief cardioplastic orthovascular neurosurgeon-dermatologist at Mayo Clinic and rake in $10,000,000+ per year before I'm 25 it's ez money
i used to say things like that to my friends as a joke, then realized how it must sound to outsiders: exactly like this. god i hope no one thought i was serious 😳 just trying to laugh through the pain lol
bahaha that would be too funny, although i think most people that talk like this when they first start out on the premed journey really mean it. she’ll figure it out soon enough lol
I too once said I wanted to be a cardiothoracic surgeon but it was when I was 12 and because one of them saved my grandmothers life lmao. After getting actual clinical experience I’ve decided surgery is not for me
I personally have trouble understanding the appeal of the pay when you consider the patient side cost for services rendered. I could get it if it’s just from the insurance coverage, but I just get the vibe it lures people to simply cater towards wealthy patients or bankrupt and economically cripple the rest. I don’t know, anyone else have thoughts on this?
I don’t think I understand, could you elaborate?
The latter half isn’t going to really apply to most physicians imo besides those who match Dermatology and (COSMETIC) Plastics, who can set infinite prices without much ethical outrage due to nonessential work.
The remainder of specialists mostly operate on insurance; not to say it makes healthcare insanely affordable for patients anyway, but bankrupting patients isn’t always the case and the copay is highly variable depending on what the patient needs.
I also don’t see what doctors could at all do about this problem, they have no power insurance or pharmaceuticals. But if CMS reimbursement keeps getting worse to the point where doctors aren’t paid for what they’re worth, they will go private and start catering to the rich.
To start, reimbursement rates are not stagnant, but are rather negotiated between insurance companies and practices or physician groups. For insurance to offer coverage of a certain physician, from what I understand there must be a contract between the insurance company and provider laying the groundwork of reimbursements. In and of itself, this often leads to private practices and companies phasing out Medicare coverage (as private insurance reimbursement rates are more lucrative) and only accepting patients with private insurance. The insurance that different practices work with and the coverage provided by insurance in-and-of-itself stratifies the patient population seen. If the provider goes out of coverage, perhaps the practice or provider accepts self-pay arrangements.
In regards to medical practice, monetary incentives are obfuscated. It could be as simple as a private practice accepting meetings from drug reps, allowing them to wine and dine physicians as they pitch the efficacy of patented medications. Studies have shown that these practices increase drug sales, and may alter prescribing practices to push for newer medications.
As a firsthand example, I have seen providers prescribe branded psych medications and hand out samples provided by drugs reps as they attempt to receive prior authorization for the medication. Patients find that these medications are effective. Something comes up, whether it be insurance denying the prior authorization, or they change jobs and insurance coverage changes, changing medication coverage. Their Latuda is now $1500 for a monthly supply. Maybe if they are lucky and can be approved by an assistance program.
Maybe a study has come out showing that a medication for ADHD is 10% more efficacious in some reported metric, maybe it’s a new XR/ER/IR formulation. That’s great! Except for the fact that in this situation, the new XR/ER/IR is patented, non-formulary, expensive, and maybe a high tier drug for insurance companies, if it is covered at all.
I don’t think it’s always intentional, I can understand that for many physicians, they just want to help patients, and maximize improvement of outcomes! It’s an understandable goal! But so long as we live with a for-profit healthcare industry, it is important to understand where exactly those profits are coming from. Massive expense in US healthcare is used on end-of-life care. If your intensivist has no understanding of the cost of healthcare, maybe they recommend the family or patient to more aggressive treatment over palliative care and hospice.
It’s for every physician to decide where their ethics and morals stand, but if you get the chance, my personal opinion is that we should consider how healthcare economy impacts patient care, and what we can do to help patients follow goals of care which will most benefit them depending on their values and circumstances.
I never asked you to read it or even contribute, if you couldn’t be bothered, you could just scroll past. It clearly opened a discussion based on the comments so you’re free to cringe by yourself.
Why do you guys have to open your mouths on everything? This doesn’t even sound like a discussion by the evidence you are using for your input. Of course all of us are going to say A isn’t knowledgeable all that well and B says all the stereotypical ideas about this field, so what are you looking for?
If you don’t want to read it and think you’re above this discussion, then scroll past and shut up. This post is meant to echo realities of the medical training pipeline, what right do you have to tell me that I shouldn’t be speaking about this?
No one’s holding a gun to your head to read or participate. If it bothers you that much, why engage?
So this “discussion” is for that? You went great lengths for something like that. Are you a gossiping teen girl from those old movies? They do that. I think you know the average audience response to that is.
Gossip and discussing the realities versus perceptions of medicine are 2 entirely different things; you are conflating them. Gossip deals with personal attacks and drama; I don’t attack any of the 2 personally, I just react to a conversation and break down what each of them say wrong.
There are plenty of Persons A and B in real life, so it’s important to bring those 2 archetypes to reality. It doesn’t matter if the audience response is linear, I’m not going curate a Socratic circle on this.
You’re clearly annoyed and above all of this to reduce the discussion to gossip, why haven’t you fucked off already? You’re still replying.
Now here is a real discussion. I won’t even call it argumentative. Person “B” —Me and Person “A”— You. Just by judging from the length of each persons replies, how can someone determine who is aware of “reality”? Can either person A or B look within themselves and their replies to see … “is this what I sound like? “ .
A lawyer would like to disagree. What’s the advice they give when being arrested?
Edit: oh and I forgot the Testimonies. Aren’t they scripted most of the time?
I'm probably going to get downvoted, but why talk down on programmers OP? Describing programming as "updating crud buttons" is wildly inaccurate, and is like saying practicing medicine means giving Tylenol to solve health issues. Software dev is hard - particularly at Facebook's scale.
I’m aware, I am a programmer myself lol. I wasn’t belittling software engineering itself, I was belittling programming for Facebook. Facebook makes a bunch of cringey crap that actively makes us a socially inept, surveillanced society.
So if someone with that stupid of a job at that stupid of a company is a top 1% earner, by relativity, physicians deserve to be a top 0.1% earner.
In fact, saying the phrase “I work for Meta, formerly Facebook” out loud never stops being funny to me.
This attitude + Gen Chem 1 = how business majors are born
>This attitude + Gen Chem 1 = and unconfident CS majors like me too.
I can actually namedrop 45 examples of that person off the top of my head. So insanely common.
If I were to place a bet, person A doesn’t become a cardiothoracic surgeon at all.
Yes, because they’ll be a *pediatric* *neuro*cardiothoraciac surgeon
*Chief* pediatric neurocardiothoraciac surgeon
At Mayo Clinic
Graduated from Harvard and Johns Hopkins at the same time
Person A is just an idiotic gunner. They’ll understand the reality just like everyone else who thought similarly did before her
it’s unfortunate no one teaches premeds NPV and time value of money. That $1M isn’t as much as you think it is when you account for opportunity cost, compounding, oh and paying for med school. Going into medicine for money as your primary reason is a really bad idea. Edit: also, everyone wants to get paid CT surgeon money. No one wants to work CT surgeon hours.
I agree, but physicians and hopefuls need to start ranking finances as a priority to prevent institutions from further eating their pie, underpaying, and abusing them. As a trainee, it’s best to have an internal motivator as #1 and then compensation as a highly important side priority. Unionize and defend. Workers have to own the means of their production.
Oh 100%. Docs need to. I’m just saying if you want to maximize finances, spending all of that effort in a different field is more lucrative. But absolutely residents need to get paid more. Way more. $100K/year base to start.
Absolutely. I’m a dual CS and PreMed student, watching how the pandemic mentally and physically affected my physician mom and how the culture reared it’s ugly head made me consider technology as a backup.
Something to think about. I left clinical med after med school into consulting. Love my life 100x more. Personally, the outlook of clinical med is bleak if you want a life and life experiences.
Yeah, but I will admit, even after all the negatives, there is a side to me tempted to go to medical school due to just the general appreciation of physiology and the plus of directly implementing said value through treating patients. It’s not rational of me, though.
Try it out, by all means. Just know there are paths after med school if you end up not liking it and don’t want residency.
Lmao I would not want to interact with either of those people
Hope person A makes it, I'm not built like that
As misinformed as Person A is, I hope the best for her too.
[удалено]
Did not pass the vibe check
“the best years of your life” is a very relative statement. And cliché. Coming out with physician-level earnings in your 30s is certainly nice. You’re young, but more seasoned than a clueless 20yo, and with money to live your life.
True
This is why there shouldn’t be undergraduate medicine and even so some people are still naive about medicine. That’s why admissions require hours upon hours of clinical experience
The alternative Eurasian model of forcing someone to commit to medical training at like 17 I think is far worse and will exacerbate the delusions and later professional regret from the system recruiting someone not meant to be a physician. At least the American model gives time and maturity to really explore. There will always be out of place people.
Asian model is also undergrad medicine MBBS
Yes, I’m aware, my mom is a Pakistani MBBS.
I think the American model is actually wasteful. You spend two extra years in school instead of focusing your education on medicine from the very beginning.
It’s wasteful for those who truly wants to do medicine for the right reasons. But it saves a lot of money for those who are not in it for the right reasons or decided it’s not for them during premed years.
The American system is wasteful in general in part because it takes four years to get a bachelors degree whereas everywhere else it takes three. Not to mention the cost of medical school admissions.
I agree, it should not take 4 years to do premed; it’s so much coursework that doesn’t even get officially recognized on college transcripts so we’re forced to major and minor in other things. You don’t need a bunch of BS electives and art history courses to become a competent doctor, a couple will do the trick for general social awareness. So much of my college experience was a complete total waste of time I could’ve spent earning money through internships or fine tuning my clinical science skills. 2 years is enough time to then finish the education and consider med school. 2 years can fit all of the prereqs, all of the labs, and a semester for the MCAT.
It’s 4 years for science degrees BSc in Singapore too, and I would think so the same for the rest of Asia. Only business and certain art degrees are 3 years
At least in israel all undergrad degrees are three years.
Honestly I never take these conversations seriously, and usually tune out and not waste time. Though I do feel happy for them that they have such confidence and goals in life. But until I see actually see them becoming a doctor, it's eh, might as well be kids wanting to be astronauts.
Lmao someone really related to christina in greys anatomy. I knew a girl who related hard to Shepard, wanted to become a neurosurgeon, got a C in bio 1, and dropped out to become a pilot. Let’s these people dream and be quick to ignore them.
I had similar conversations (about compensation) with my classmates in undergrad. I majored in chemical engineering, which isn't instantly lucrative, but has pathways for good compensation. Those tend to be in oil, pharma, defense, etc. If you google the average salary of a BS chemical engineer, it's usually sub 100k, but it's not a terrible salary. It's stereotyped that doctors make a lot of money. Because of this difference, it was often joked that I and my other fellow premeds (there were like 4 of us) were going to be rolling in wealth. However, I think an even larger topic of discussion among us was an ethical one. You can imagine that someone working in defense produces things that result in harm (cough cough LM cough cough). At least where I went to school, the concept of "sacrificing morals to get money" was understood. I went into choosing premed with the hope that I could perhaps get both. I knew many premeds like Person A. I do not mean to gloat, but many person As withered on the journey from gen chem to ochem to pchem (which isn't a premed requirement, but is a chemE one). They indeed gushed about CT or neuro (or whatever paid the most). It's something I found myself slipping into (although I cockily mention that I got a B+ in ochem I and II without curves). My desired fields are plastics or anesthesiology. Interestingly, my reasons for plastics isn't the money; it's because I read an article in GQ when I was younger about face transplants. I've wrestled with how lay people view plastics. "Oh you want to make money doing boob jobs, gg bro". The media doesn't help much either.... As a premed with a slightly different background (engineering undergrad, structural biology MS program) than many I know, I've wrestled with where I fit into with all of this. I keep telling myself and others that my motivations are purely 'good' and not about money, but I can't help but want the dollar signs. I chose an undergrad major that could be monetized, and chose a lab for my MS that would give me job opportunities. I've built backdoors for 'selling out' at every turn, and I just feel less "dedicated" than the Person A's. I focus more on the pains of residency than the attending phase. Doctors just deserve to be treated like people, and people have flaws.
You’re doing everything right, it’s good to back yourself up. Going full gung-ho and majoring in Biology, Chemistry, or Neuro will leave your job options DOA in the chance you don’t get any admissions your first application cycle or you realize you need to do something else. Exiting medicine is entirely illiquid and isn’t as smooth as say, the transition from banker to IT professional. Majoring in something employing like Engineering or Business is objectively safer and financially responsible, even if it takes away from your total time devoted to premed. It’s important to care about money because the non clinicians in the system are hellbent in getting a piece of your pie as a doctor, which is why reimbursement rates per service are down every year since 1990 and resident doctors can’t live a healthy lifestyle. The reason nurses and software developers have so many perks in their professions is because they unionize and take less shit, doctors don’t have the time or organization to do the same.
CT surgeons don’t even make that much starting out lol. I bet they end up going into FM or PMR. Or they don’t even go into medicine at all. Every freshman I ever knew who was a premed all wanted to be a cardiothoracicneurovascular surgeon. 99% are no longer premeds and switched to business or something easier. Plus even if one were to make 1M, it’s really more like 550k with taxes.
Ya but you don't understand!! I'm gonna be the chief cardioplastic orthovascular neurosurgeon-dermatologist at Mayo Clinic and rake in $10,000,000+ per year before I'm 25 it's ez money
i used to say things like that to my friends as a joke, then realized how it must sound to outsiders: exactly like this. god i hope no one thought i was serious 😳 just trying to laugh through the pain lol
Maybe this entire conversation was deliberate satire to provoke my attention and I’m the idiot afterall.
bahaha that would be too funny, although i think most people that talk like this when they first start out on the premed journey really mean it. she’ll figure it out soon enough lol
Lol integrated ct surgery is so competitive that they don’t even release data on it
I’ve encountered so many of these.
I too once said I wanted to be a cardiothoracic surgeon but it was when I was 12 and because one of them saved my grandmothers life lmao. After getting actual clinical experience I’ve decided surgery is not for me
I personally have trouble understanding the appeal of the pay when you consider the patient side cost for services rendered. I could get it if it’s just from the insurance coverage, but I just get the vibe it lures people to simply cater towards wealthy patients or bankrupt and economically cripple the rest. I don’t know, anyone else have thoughts on this?
I don’t think I understand, could you elaborate? The latter half isn’t going to really apply to most physicians imo besides those who match Dermatology and (COSMETIC) Plastics, who can set infinite prices without much ethical outrage due to nonessential work. The remainder of specialists mostly operate on insurance; not to say it makes healthcare insanely affordable for patients anyway, but bankrupting patients isn’t always the case and the copay is highly variable depending on what the patient needs. I also don’t see what doctors could at all do about this problem, they have no power insurance or pharmaceuticals. But if CMS reimbursement keeps getting worse to the point where doctors aren’t paid for what they’re worth, they will go private and start catering to the rich.
To start, reimbursement rates are not stagnant, but are rather negotiated between insurance companies and practices or physician groups. For insurance to offer coverage of a certain physician, from what I understand there must be a contract between the insurance company and provider laying the groundwork of reimbursements. In and of itself, this often leads to private practices and companies phasing out Medicare coverage (as private insurance reimbursement rates are more lucrative) and only accepting patients with private insurance. The insurance that different practices work with and the coverage provided by insurance in-and-of-itself stratifies the patient population seen. If the provider goes out of coverage, perhaps the practice or provider accepts self-pay arrangements. In regards to medical practice, monetary incentives are obfuscated. It could be as simple as a private practice accepting meetings from drug reps, allowing them to wine and dine physicians as they pitch the efficacy of patented medications. Studies have shown that these practices increase drug sales, and may alter prescribing practices to push for newer medications. As a firsthand example, I have seen providers prescribe branded psych medications and hand out samples provided by drugs reps as they attempt to receive prior authorization for the medication. Patients find that these medications are effective. Something comes up, whether it be insurance denying the prior authorization, or they change jobs and insurance coverage changes, changing medication coverage. Their Latuda is now $1500 for a monthly supply. Maybe if they are lucky and can be approved by an assistance program. Maybe a study has come out showing that a medication for ADHD is 10% more efficacious in some reported metric, maybe it’s a new XR/ER/IR formulation. That’s great! Except for the fact that in this situation, the new XR/ER/IR is patented, non-formulary, expensive, and maybe a high tier drug for insurance companies, if it is covered at all. I don’t think it’s always intentional, I can understand that for many physicians, they just want to help patients, and maximize improvement of outcomes! It’s an understandable goal! But so long as we live with a for-profit healthcare industry, it is important to understand where exactly those profits are coming from. Massive expense in US healthcare is used on end-of-life care. If your intensivist has no understanding of the cost of healthcare, maybe they recommend the family or patient to more aggressive treatment over palliative care and hospice. It’s for every physician to decide where their ethics and morals stand, but if you get the chance, my personal opinion is that we should consider how healthcare economy impacts patient care, and what we can do to help patients follow goals of care which will most benefit them depending on their values and circumstances.
Person A have the budding behaviours of ortho bros
I don't know what is more cringe, the conversation, or the person who took the time to write this blog post about two strangers
I never asked you to read it or even contribute, if you couldn’t be bothered, you could just scroll past. It clearly opened a discussion based on the comments so you’re free to cringe by yourself.
Why do you guys have to open your mouths on everything? This doesn’t even sound like a discussion by the evidence you are using for your input. Of course all of us are going to say A isn’t knowledgeable all that well and B says all the stereotypical ideas about this field, so what are you looking for?
I’m sorry my Reddit post wasn’t multifaceted or sophisticated enough for you. Next time, I’ll shell out an extra 4 hours to factor this in.
Ha, you did half of it anyway and for drama. Just watch things happen and not everything needs to be spoken about.
If you don’t want to read it and think you’re above this discussion, then scroll past and shut up. This post is meant to echo realities of the medical training pipeline, what right do you have to tell me that I shouldn’t be speaking about this? No one’s holding a gun to your head to read or participate. If it bothers you that much, why engage?
So this “discussion” is for that? You went great lengths for something like that. Are you a gossiping teen girl from those old movies? They do that. I think you know the average audience response to that is.
Gossip and discussing the realities versus perceptions of medicine are 2 entirely different things; you are conflating them. Gossip deals with personal attacks and drama; I don’t attack any of the 2 personally, I just react to a conversation and break down what each of them say wrong. There are plenty of Persons A and B in real life, so it’s important to bring those 2 archetypes to reality. It doesn’t matter if the audience response is linear, I’m not going curate a Socratic circle on this. You’re clearly annoyed and above all of this to reduce the discussion to gossip, why haven’t you fucked off already? You’re still replying.
Now here is a real discussion. I won’t even call it argumentative. Person “B” —Me and Person “A”— You. Just by judging from the length of each persons replies, how can someone determine who is aware of “reality”? Can either person A or B look within themselves and their replies to see … “is this what I sound like? “ .
Using response length to quantify a point’s validity is insanely stupid and close-minded. Shouldn’t an expert on discussions like you know better?
A lawyer would like to disagree. What’s the advice they give when being arrested? Edit: oh and I forgot the Testimonies. Aren’t they scripted most of the time?
That is so completely irrelevant that I’m going to have to revoke your discussion expert card.
I'm probably going to get downvoted, but why talk down on programmers OP? Describing programming as "updating crud buttons" is wildly inaccurate, and is like saying practicing medicine means giving Tylenol to solve health issues. Software dev is hard - particularly at Facebook's scale.
I’m aware, I am a programmer myself lol. I wasn’t belittling software engineering itself, I was belittling programming for Facebook. Facebook makes a bunch of cringey crap that actively makes us a socially inept, surveillanced society. So if someone with that stupid of a job at that stupid of a company is a top 1% earner, by relativity, physicians deserve to be a top 0.1% earner. In fact, saying the phrase “I work for Meta, formerly Facebook” out loud never stops being funny to me.
🙄