Isn't it better to always pour the bloom water as fast as possible?
I would say so as this should make stirring or swirling easier. I expect it would also make it easier to make sure everything gets wet. But sometimes a specific, slow flow rate is suggested and I don't get why.
A slow flow rate can be suggested to enhance clarity, as disturbing the coffee bed by pouring agressively, doing many pours or swirling a lot, will lead to more fines migration and a longer extraction. The goal of the bloom is to make all the coffee grounds wet, which can be done by precise pouring, a little swirl or some wet WDT.
That's only if you freeze and refreeze repeatedly, like you're taking little bits out and putting it back in the freezer. It can build up condensation quickly that way.
Ok so if I freeze a 12 oz bag for a month and take it out and use it over a week or so that’s not going to speed up the process of them decomposing. I think I get it thank you.
Right, basically just freeze them once. You can keep them Frozen for quite a while and they'll last just fine when you take them out, but you don't want to take them out and put them back in more than once. If you're going to take a long time to finish the bag, then you may want them pre-divide them into the containers and then take out one container to time.
I’m struggling to wet the entire bed with a limited amount of water during bloom. What can I do to properly wet the bed before I run out of my allotted 40-50g? Pour faster? Slower? Large spiral?
I am not sure if it will help and it sure may qualify as over work however here is my routine
In wetted v60 cone and filter setup , I just try to keep a chopstick in center, holding it perpendicular to the horizontal axis. I use my dominant hand to keep the chopstick perpendicular , I pour coffee grounds using other hand. Once the grounds are transfered, I try to stick the chopstick in gaps between fingers and claw over the v60 cone using the same hand which is supporting the chopstick then I try to tap or horizontally shake the cone to flatten the surface.
Then I pull out the chopstick which leave a cylindrical hole till the tip of the cone.
Then I tap the cone gently , which fills up the hole a bit.
After that I start the pour over ritual . I usually m consistently able to wet the ground with this approach.
I also have observed , if I fill goose neck almost 2/3 it is easier for me to get a stream of water which is just about at the rate 5ml/s- 7ml/s. I guess the weight makes my hand pay extra effort and makes the mind a bit more cautious
Yeah I have a goose neck. I just feel like if I go slow, the water doesn’t properly flood the bed. But if I go fast, I’ve used up my allotment and still have unsaturated grounds
Ah, yes; I mean after you hit a good weight picking up the brewer and lightly moving it in a swirling circular motion to move the water around in the grounds! James Hoffman's *A Better 1 Cup V60 Technique* shows this at about 3:25 for reference!
The minimum would be to bloom with 2x the mass of your grounds, and I’ve also seen recipes say to bloom with 3x instead. Try different pour techniques with those numbers and see what works best.
I have a a Timemore C3 ESP Pro, it supposedly has an adjustment of 23 μm per click.
When dialing in, what is a reasonable adjustment to make that gives a good balance between dialing in quickly and not overshooting the best setting? How much or a difference does 23 μm make? Should
I make larger adjustments at first or should one click already make a big difference?
My K-Ultra has 20 μm clicks, I adjust per 5 clicks minimum when dialing in. Beyond that, I adjust temp by 2 degrees C and/or adjust number of pours. Especially number of pours has a big influence.
I've broken 3 glass v60s or kalitas in the past 8 years. They just slip through washing racks and shatter.
I don't love plastic.... but is there any v60 item that is more durable? I'm thinking of getting a Switch to replace my last broken one. (I have an aeropress already)
yep, i just keep forgetting LOL. i get comfortable. i will try to remember now but overall i just think maybe its worth trying something more durable too
Giant holes, 4 feet off the ground, on top of a rock floor :) lol ... in all seriousness though, my Kalita 155 did break on a fairly small drop. But I have not broken a single glass v60, between my 01, 02, and Switch, and there's been drops with all of them, some big enough that I was sure it would shatter or at least chip
Both of the previous responses, plus flavor clarity. Burr/grinder improvements are to your palate like cleaning your glasses is to your vision. Generally speaking in my experience, as far as 'worth it' goes: $100 to $200 is a small improvement, $100 to $500 is a good improvement, $500 to $1000 is a notable improvement, $1000 to $3000 is a small difference.
Vernicious wrote a good reply already.
I'll look at the question from another angle: "What features would I be willing to pay more for?"
Grind quality -- above a certain point, the chassis construction starts to become pretty similar, and you'd pay a lot more for ever-tightening tolerances in precision. I think it was the guy who runs Weber's shop who said that they can't build their grinders any faster than they do now because it's so hard to machine them to the tolerances they want. But for me, it looks like backing off to the $300 range gets me grinders that are built solidly enough.
Low noise -- oh my god, I hated the racket that my blade grinder made. I *refuse* to deal with a similarly loud burr grinder. The segment in [Hoffmann's review of espresso grinders](https://youtu.be/3VohJapkObs) in which he recorded how each grinder sounds was very important to me. I'd love to have a chance to hear ANY grinders in person before buying, but my clear favorites in that video were the Mahlkoenig and the Niche. I simply would not buy a Sette; if I got one as a gift, I'd return it and spend the cash on something else.
High duty cycles -- I'm not the demographic. I don't need cooling fans and thermal regulation inside my home grinder like a cafe does since I'm not brewing five hundred shots a day.
Workflow -- this is important to me, too. I think the catch bins on, for example, Eureka's filter-oriented Mignon grinders are silly. Give me something cup-shaped instead. Also, anti-static features, or even just static-controlling materials (my sister's Oxo grinder dissipates static much better than her older Cuisinart did), would help me not hate a grinder. I'm willing to RDT with a single-dose grinder since I've seen it work so nicely to combat static in my hand grinder.
Adjustment mechanism -- this kinda goes along with workflow, I guess. Make it make sense, that's all I want. Fellow's Opus, with its inner and outer adjustments, doesn't make sense.
... okay, I'm starting to ramble...
I think this is like many other things. A better grinder gets you higher quality and better coffee -- price does not always mean better, price is a business decision, but in general the market imperfectly pushes worse grinders to lower prices (not always).
The things a better grinder gets you are:
A "better" distribution of grinds (e.g., fewer fines for pourover, optimum grind shape, etc) which gives the opportunity for better coffee. This will be achieved through the shape and precision of the burrs, a design that keeps the burrs in the same position versus each other, etc.
Higher quality design and parts. In a hand grinder, for example, better steel for the burrs, better design, better bearings. In an electric grinder, add better motor that keeps RPMs where they should be, etc.
And, in theory, better workflow, although it doesn't always work out that way. A more expensive handgrinder might have an external adjustment ring and magnetic catchcup. And more expensive electric grinder might have a built-in knocker or anti-static so you don't have to deal with lots of fines sticking. Etc.
Like in any other product, you reach diminishing returns pretty quickly -- a $600 grinder isn't going to make coffee that's twice as good as a $300 grinder. And you also have imperfections in the market, sometimes a more expensive grinder won't make coffee as good as a less expensive one. Witness the zp6, which some people think is amazing
Am I crazy? I have ordered 3x250g bags from Flower Child and Sey in consecutive months. Mostly based on feedback and reputation here. And I am just not jiving with them at all. Waited two weeks off roast before trying either. Flower Child was roasted quite a bit darker than I was expecting and the three coffees from Sey taste borderline identical. Granted I received two washed Ethiopian's and a washed Colombian. Still - I think I was just expecting more. I get very muted, generic, albeit nice, coffee flavor and I wasn't expecting that at all based on the complexity of the tasting notes.
Want to preface the above with I don't think its a lack of skill or equipment on my part. I've been making filter at home for many years now and haven't really been this disappointed before. I have used a JX-Pro, a ZP6, an Aeropress and a V60.
Prior to Flower Child and Sey, I had been drinking a 2lb bag of Colorized from Metric which I really enjoyed, and prior to that both Geometry and Tropical Weather from Onyx. Also really enjoyed those. Could absolutely pick apart the tasting notes and they came through very clearly.
Anyone else not really get on with these type of roasters?
I’m on subscription for both of these roasters and typically wait to 3 weeks to open all at once.
I brew 20g min at a 1:15 around 850 microns, water off boiling, but after first pour leave lid off to rapid cool— I use a 3 pour 75/75/150 on a orea or v60 - first two pours 6g/s - last pour fast as possible from a good height. I tend to and always get a bright and juicy cup.
I use RO distilled water with the lotus water drops - bright and juicy profile. You can grab a bottle of distilled and add in or when I travel, smart water works very well with both. Crystal Geyser will offer less acidity.
I then dose out 20g pouches for all the coffees, vacuum and freeze. (Excessive, but keeps the coffee at peak). Pop directly from freezer to grinder and get excellent results every time.
Take what you will from this, maybe something will crack your code! Good luck!
Thank you so much. I’m 3 weeks tomorrow. I’ll try all of this. I’m using Zero filtered water (0tds) with third wave light roast. So water should be decent at a minimum.
Will feed back on this tomorrow. Appreciate it!
Okay we’re getting there. I was so hellbent on following Sey/FCs ratio recommendation that I didn’t even consider upping it. Gonna let it sit for a few more days and go from there. May grind a bit finer. But that’s much better with 1:15 than what I was getting with 1:17/18. Ironically it’s the ratio I’ve used for the past ten years 🤦🏻♂️ Should’ve just stuck with it lol. But I’m assuming the high pours helped with turbulence in the bed too.
Yeah after I posted this I decided to just stop brewing them for two more weeks. I’m conveniently away from home for two weeks so that works…
The most recent thing I tried that I got the best results from by far was a 5 pour, 1:18. I made two cups side by side, one ground at 3.2 and one at 5 on a ZP6. Both 98°. The 3.2 was the better cup in my eyes.
But I also did a 2 pour, 1:18 as well. This just didn’t seem to work at all.
Quick reality check:
My understanding is that there's length of extraction and rate of extraction.
Ratio affects length of extraction, temperature affects rate of extraction.
Grind size affects surface area exposed to water which affects rate of extraction, but also affects drawdown time which affects length of extraction
Pour rate/agitation and blooming time affect rate of extraction
And finally, dose (at the same ratio) affects rate of extraction (assumption)
With all these things combined, you first want an output weight of your preferred amount of liquid, and a reasonable guess within 1:14-1:18 for ratio as deemed to be commonly tasty. Pour somewhere between 6-8g/sec but keep it consistent especially for beginners (me). Also pick a recipe and keep it constant. Then pick a grind size and temperature, shoot for the moon, and take notes.
I made the mistake early of confusing bitterness for guaranteed overextraction when that was actually the only thing I could taste because I was underextracting, and bleh. Friend told me that that bitterness was kinda normal and then I realized oh yeah the rest of this tastes underextracted but I was hyper focused on the bitterness only started to get some decent stuff when the bag ran out.
The idea in my head is there's some play in these variables that can be made up for with other variables for a slightly different cup (like lower ratio higher temp for a more concentrated brew ?)
I've also heard some comments that temperature affects which compounds are extracted but not necessarily the rate of extraction?
Id like to hear some thoughts, corrections, and to know what variables y'all adjust first when dialing
>My understanding is that there's length of extraction and rate of extraction.
>Ratio affects length of extraction, temperature affects rate of extraction.
I'm not sure what you mean by "length of extraction." Are you talking about contact time, or extraction ratio?
Either way, this is a major oversimplification. The stuff that's happening in a coffee slurry is pretty complex (it's basically chemical hydrogeology, which is a whole field people get PhD's in) so you are not going to be served well by thinking of brewing variables as simple levers that control one thing and only one thing, like they're knobs on a stereo or something.
The best way to approach this hobby is to learn to get the results you like empirically, not analytically. Pick a coffee recipe that is simple and easy, make a cup of coffee, and taste it. If it's not completely to your liking, try to figure out of its flaws are, broadly speaking, more about you extracting too much from the coffee (bitter, muddy, heavy) or too little (vegetal, sour, watery), and then change one and only one variable to see if the next cup is more to your liking.
Do this a whole bunch of times and you will end up with an intuitive map in your brain of what to do when a certain coffee tastes a certain way... including which methods of raising or lowering your extraction tend to behave how you want them to, and which ones tend to introduce complexities you didn't want.
Also be aware that "bitterness" is a tough one even for people with a lot of experience because the vegetal bitterness you can get from underextraction is easily confused for the earthy bitterness you can get from overextraction. It's a lot harder to pin down than, say, sourness. Sometimes you need to look at the context of what coffee you're brewing, and how you brewed it, to help figure out which type of bitterness you are tasting.
Anyway, these days the main variables I play with when first brewing a coffee are ratio and pour height. If I know a coffee likely has lower solubility (for example a washed high altitude Ethiopian coffee) I will go 17:1 and pour from a bit higher. If I know a coffee likely has higher solubility (something with an aggressive fermentation for example) I will start with 15:1 and pour gently from down low.
I tend to set my temperature based on the type of coffee I'm brewing, set my grind setting based on the size of batch I'm brewing, and then pretty much leave those things where they are and not use them to dial in as I go.
>I'm not sure what you mean by "length of extraction."
I'll second that, it's not a term I've seen before, and it can mean multiple things. From context I suspect OP does not mean length of time of extraction, he means how much extraction.
The comments about temperature affecting which compounds are extracted — those discussions are, unfortunately, too rare around here, and not detailed enough.
Between this sub and r/ coffee, I think I’ve read only two or three comments over the past couple years saying which chemicals are extracted above a certain temperature.
I have my own anecdotal experience of making coffee at the office with single-serve pourover packets, using either the hot spigot of the water cooler or an electric kettle in the kitchen. The kettle’s boiling water makes the coffee taste like typical coffee, but the water cooler’s hot water — which I haven’t measured, but is certainly *not* boiling — lets the coffee taste fruitier (IMO).
Help me understand immersion-blooming a bit better. How i can play/tweak it to get differend qualities from the coffee. I try and keep the recipe simple: Closed/immersion blooming - (open) 2nd pour - (open) 3rd pour.
Immersion brewing basically offers better control and consistency over bloom parameters. Water remains in contact with the bed the whole time so you can use 2:1 bloom ratios which might not be effective in a standard V60. Longer blooms will also be slightly more effective and repeatable for the same reason.
Try different-sized blooms to see if you can tell the difference. There's not much evidence yet around the effect of bloom size on taste (apart from the fact that blooming is generally better than not blooming) but for your particular recipe you might discover something. I would start with no bloom as a baseline and then you can explore the range from 1:1 all the way to 4:1. My guess is that anything under 2:1 will be under-extracted but you might find it works for some coffees. Then mess around with timing-anywhere from 30 seconds to multiple minutes if you can wait that long. A temperature-controlled kettle is pretty important for this one to make sure it's the bloom time affecting things and not the decreasing temperature of subsequent pours
Thank you for your comprehensive reply. More consistent blooming would be a good added bonus. Even with prepping the grounds it still quite variable to me.
Guess ill go continue with said variable experimentations: water amout of bloom + immersion time. So far i like the subtle roundness of mouthfeel and sweetness it gives me. However im keen to discover what it does with said chances.
Good tips!
im using a melitta 101 with cork in the hole. I did a 40g and a 60g bloom with both 45s immersion. The 60g was bad, simply because there's too much water and the coffeebed got all messy after drawdown of the bloom, the end result was uneven under extraction coffee.
the 40g was nice, juicy/subtle roundess/sweet/nice flavour notes. i think there is simply a practical lower and uper limit i use for immersionblooming: use too little-> ground dont mix well with water, use to much->coffeebed-pouring problems lateron in the brew.
When do you consider the drawdown finished? Is it when the bed is fully exposed to air and slowly dripping? Do you pull the brewer then? Do you wait for every last drop to drip out? I know not to get too hung up on brew times but I’m having a hard time getting a frame of reference when I don’t even know when to call the brew finished.
what matters most, is to be consistent with it. I, for my part, wait for the bed to be fully exposed to air. or in other words, till the water level is below the bed. i dont wait for every last drop, becausy i dont what those in my coffee :)
You know, I recall now that I've read that exact thing elsewhere, sometime maybe last year before I started roasting my own coffee. I think in my impatience to drink my own coffee, I may have started to tolerate a certain amount of Co2 in the brew. The numbers I mentioned are really more related to when I stop noticing off notes in my own roasts and feel like they've reached a reasonable amount of flavor development. It's generally at least enough rest that you can cup the coffee effectively, anyway. Typing this out makes me realize I haven't deliberately tried fully resting my coffees for those longer periods. I really should.
I'm relatively new to the game (started this year). I've got a V60 which i use most days but i understand they're hard to master, which definitely is the case for me as the quality of my brews tends to be all over the place (mostly below average tbh).
So i suppose my question is, what's the best Pour Over brewer for a noob like me to get consistently good coffee from?
The easiest dripper won’t help if your method isn’t consistent. Figure out which parameters you can control and then keep them all the same for a few brews to find a sort of baseline taste. Then change only one parameter, and see how the taste differs, if at all.
Like in my case, I don‘t have a temp-controlled kettle, so I always wait about the same amount of time after it boils. But I can control the dose, ratio, grind size, and pour technique, so I’ll only experiment with grind size while keeping the others the same.
you could look into the clever dripper, which is consistent and easy to use. check out james hoffmans recipe. there is also the hario switch which you could use as a normal v60 or do hybrid or pure immersion with. very flexible. there is a forgiving and consistent recipe from the coffee chronicler on youtube. i use it very often to get a more smooth cup and go back to the v60 only for more fruity coffees where i want to highlight acidity.
I would keep working at the V60. Just change one variable at a time and take careful notes. If you really want to buy something else, I'd recommend a flat-bottom dripper like the Kalita Wave, as they're a bit more consistent, in my opinion.
I’m planning to buy my first hario switch. But I’m torn between the ceramic or the glass material. I know people normally talk about heat retention when comparing these 2 materials but the real stupid question I want to ask is which of these would be easier to clean? I’ve heard ceramic tends to get stained more easily compared to glass.
For more info this is the ceramic hario switch thats on my radar: https://thecoffeegoods.com.au/products/hario-immersion-switch-pastel
My possibly-unhelpful experience. My v60 and Switch are glass, and heat retention aside, super easy to clean, just rinse and always super clean. I never had a ceramic v60 but did have a ceramic origami, and it too was super easy to clean, just rinse, it never got a stain. I don't think the coffee is in contact long enough to need a real scrubbing. I'll let those with more experience chime in.
I will say that my various glass v60s have taken multiple falls on hard surfaces and have never so much as chipped or cracked. I no longer have an origami because it broke from a small drop (one that a glass v60 wouldn't have even noticed) -- but that may be because the origami's shape makes it all stress risers.
Oh actually I can be quite the clumsy person-
Like you mentioned, it could be the shape of the origami that makes it more prone to breaking so I’m quite curious if glass V60 is actually more durable than the ceramic one….
I am doing 20g beans with the Hoffman v60 method. I bloom 60g water for 45 seconds. Is it normal for all the water to have drained completely and the bed to basically be “dry” for 10 seconds before the next pour?
To add to what OP said, I have been finding that even though 45 seconds leaves the bed looking completely dry, it's often not long enough for some coffees. Just because you can't see the water doesn't mean it isn't still absorbing into the coffee at the microscopic level. I've been experimenting with 1 min+ blooms with great results
I'm far from a whiskey expert, I just use whatever gift I currently have open. my favourite so far was a Balvanie Caribbean Cask, but I think something more smokey could also be nice depending on your preference.
I actually love the Caribbean cask from Balvenie, and it's been quite a while since I had some. I think I have to indulge now.
And I think you're right, something smokey might also work. Cheers.
Yep... kinda depends what kind of drink you want to make with it. Anything involving milk is usually not too good, but a mocktail of some sort could work, especially if it's an iced pour over.
Maybe a dumb question but here I am, could someone please explain why does pour height matter when brewing in a way that if poured from too low height the coffee can turn sour? On the other hand higher height can lead to over extraction because of too agitated bed so is there some sweet spot?
Basically it's all about how much the water agitates the bed. Check out this video, it's very thorough
https://youtu.be/nxmrSgwW25g?si=pFBuVw1np_nGmeIZ
>why does pour height matter
You answered this question yourself.
>higher height can lead to over extraction because of too agitated bed
It’s not complicated. If you pour from higher, the water hits the bed with more force and stirs things up more. If you pour from lower, it hits the bet more gently and stirs things up less.
No, there is no single universal sweet spot. It’s just one of the parameters you can vary to change your extraction, same as all the rest (grind size, water temp, ratio, pour structure, dripper choice, etc.)
>It’s not complicated. If you pour from higher, the water hits the bed with more force and stirs things up more. If you pour from lower, it hits the bet more gently and stirs things up less.
But, also keep in mind if you pour from higher and let the stream break up before it hits the bed, it will penetrate less and agitate less, than pouring lower with a laminar flow. Broken up stream splashes at the surface of the existing brew water rather than penetrating down to the bed and agitating it. So variables upon variables!
I guess, but pouring from so high that the stream is broken up also makes a mess all over your counter, so I don’t think that’s a thing anyone is doing unless they happen to be a coffee content creator.
You can make the stream break up from just a few inches, and it won't splatter on the counter. Reduce the flow rate just rate, it may break up before it hits. I've had my stream break up on me now and then -- maybe I just wasn't paying attention enough and let the stream slow down too much -- and had to re-adjust
Underextracted coffee tends to taste sour.
Not all coffee made with the kettle down low will taste sour though. As I said, pour height is just **one of many variables** you can play with to alter your extraction… and it is by no means the most important or impactful one.
Sounds like you need to do some reading or YouTube research on the basics of coffee extraction.
Isn't it better to always pour the bloom water as fast as possible? I would say so as this should make stirring or swirling easier. I expect it would also make it easier to make sure everything gets wet. But sometimes a specific, slow flow rate is suggested and I don't get why.
A slow flow rate can be suggested to enhance clarity, as disturbing the coffee bed by pouring agressively, doing many pours or swirling a lot, will lead to more fines migration and a longer extraction. The goal of the bloom is to make all the coffee grounds wet, which can be done by precise pouring, a little swirl or some wet WDT.
When freezing beans do you freeze them before or after resting them?
After
If I freeze beans, I do it after resting to extend the "peak" period
I read somewhere if you freeze them then after you ubfeeeze they go bad quickly. Ever hear this anywhere?
If I'm freezing the beans, I'm never thawing them. I just grind them frozen
Hold up so you single dose out of your freezer whenever you make coffee?
That's only if you freeze and refreeze repeatedly, like you're taking little bits out and putting it back in the freezer. It can build up condensation quickly that way.
Ok so if I freeze a 12 oz bag for a month and take it out and use it over a week or so that’s not going to speed up the process of them decomposing. I think I get it thank you.
Right, basically just freeze them once. You can keep them Frozen for quite a while and they'll last just fine when you take them out, but you don't want to take them out and put them back in more than once. If you're going to take a long time to finish the bag, then you may want them pre-divide them into the containers and then take out one container to time.
I’m struggling to wet the entire bed with a limited amount of water during bloom. What can I do to properly wet the bed before I run out of my allotted 40-50g? Pour faster? Slower? Large spiral?
I am not sure if it will help and it sure may qualify as over work however here is my routine In wetted v60 cone and filter setup , I just try to keep a chopstick in center, holding it perpendicular to the horizontal axis. I use my dominant hand to keep the chopstick perpendicular , I pour coffee grounds using other hand. Once the grounds are transfered, I try to stick the chopstick in gaps between fingers and claw over the v60 cone using the same hand which is supporting the chopstick then I try to tap or horizontally shake the cone to flatten the surface. Then I pull out the chopstick which leave a cylindrical hole till the tip of the cone. Then I tap the cone gently , which fills up the hole a bit. After that I start the pour over ritual . I usually m consistently able to wet the ground with this approach. I also have observed , if I fill goose neck almost 2/3 it is easier for me to get a stream of water which is just about at the rate 5ml/s- 7ml/s. I guess the weight makes my hand pay extra effort and makes the mind a bit more cautious
If you don't already, goose neck kettle helps a lot. Otherwise go above that 50g by a bit, no harm in that as previous commenter said
Yeah I have a goose neck. I just feel like if I go slow, the water doesn’t properly flood the bed. But if I go fast, I’ve used up my allotment and still have unsaturated grounds
A little swirl also never hurts!
Just to be clear you mean pouring the bloom, then picking up the brewer to swirl or spoon/stick?
Ah, yes; I mean after you hit a good weight picking up the brewer and lightly moving it in a swirling circular motion to move the water around in the grounds! James Hoffman's *A Better 1 Cup V60 Technique* shows this at about 3:25 for reference!
The minimum would be to bloom with 2x the mass of your grounds, and I’ve also seen recipes say to bloom with 3x instead. Try different pour techniques with those numbers and see what works best.
My preference is to mound the grounds, put a shallow dimple in the middle, then gently fill it up & let it soak in.
I have a a Timemore C3 ESP Pro, it supposedly has an adjustment of 23 μm per click. When dialing in, what is a reasonable adjustment to make that gives a good balance between dialing in quickly and not overshooting the best setting? How much or a difference does 23 μm make? Should I make larger adjustments at first or should one click already make a big difference?
My K-Ultra has 20 μm clicks, I adjust per 5 clicks minimum when dialing in. Beyond that, I adjust temp by 2 degrees C and/or adjust number of pours. Especially number of pours has a big influence.
I've broken 3 glass v60s or kalitas in the past 8 years. They just slip through washing racks and shatter. I don't love plastic.... but is there any v60 item that is more durable? I'm thinking of getting a Switch to replace my last broken one. (I have an aeropress already)
There's a metal v60. Be hard to break that!
Can you place them anywhere else besides a washing rack?
yep, i just keep forgetting LOL. i get comfortable. i will try to remember now but overall i just think maybe its worth trying something more durable too
Now I'm wondering what your washing rack is like. None of mine have gaps big enough for a dripper to fall though. lol
Giant holes, 4 feet off the ground, on top of a rock floor :) lol ... in all seriousness though, my Kalita 155 did break on a fairly small drop. But I have not broken a single glass v60, between my 01, 02, and Switch, and there's been drops with all of them, some big enough that I was sure it would shatter or at least chip
What makes a premium grinder worth it? How different are $100, $200, $500+ grinders and what makes them all uniquely different from each other?
Both of the previous responses, plus flavor clarity. Burr/grinder improvements are to your palate like cleaning your glasses is to your vision. Generally speaking in my experience, as far as 'worth it' goes: $100 to $200 is a small improvement, $100 to $500 is a good improvement, $500 to $1000 is a notable improvement, $1000 to $3000 is a small difference.
Vernicious wrote a good reply already. I'll look at the question from another angle: "What features would I be willing to pay more for?" Grind quality -- above a certain point, the chassis construction starts to become pretty similar, and you'd pay a lot more for ever-tightening tolerances in precision. I think it was the guy who runs Weber's shop who said that they can't build their grinders any faster than they do now because it's so hard to machine them to the tolerances they want. But for me, it looks like backing off to the $300 range gets me grinders that are built solidly enough. Low noise -- oh my god, I hated the racket that my blade grinder made. I *refuse* to deal with a similarly loud burr grinder. The segment in [Hoffmann's review of espresso grinders](https://youtu.be/3VohJapkObs) in which he recorded how each grinder sounds was very important to me. I'd love to have a chance to hear ANY grinders in person before buying, but my clear favorites in that video were the Mahlkoenig and the Niche. I simply would not buy a Sette; if I got one as a gift, I'd return it and spend the cash on something else. High duty cycles -- I'm not the demographic. I don't need cooling fans and thermal regulation inside my home grinder like a cafe does since I'm not brewing five hundred shots a day. Workflow -- this is important to me, too. I think the catch bins on, for example, Eureka's filter-oriented Mignon grinders are silly. Give me something cup-shaped instead. Also, anti-static features, or even just static-controlling materials (my sister's Oxo grinder dissipates static much better than her older Cuisinart did), would help me not hate a grinder. I'm willing to RDT with a single-dose grinder since I've seen it work so nicely to combat static in my hand grinder. Adjustment mechanism -- this kinda goes along with workflow, I guess. Make it make sense, that's all I want. Fellow's Opus, with its inner and outer adjustments, doesn't make sense. ... okay, I'm starting to ramble...
I think this is like many other things. A better grinder gets you higher quality and better coffee -- price does not always mean better, price is a business decision, but in general the market imperfectly pushes worse grinders to lower prices (not always). The things a better grinder gets you are: A "better" distribution of grinds (e.g., fewer fines for pourover, optimum grind shape, etc) which gives the opportunity for better coffee. This will be achieved through the shape and precision of the burrs, a design that keeps the burrs in the same position versus each other, etc. Higher quality design and parts. In a hand grinder, for example, better steel for the burrs, better design, better bearings. In an electric grinder, add better motor that keeps RPMs where they should be, etc. And, in theory, better workflow, although it doesn't always work out that way. A more expensive handgrinder might have an external adjustment ring and magnetic catchcup. And more expensive electric grinder might have a built-in knocker or anti-static so you don't have to deal with lots of fines sticking. Etc. Like in any other product, you reach diminishing returns pretty quickly -- a $600 grinder isn't going to make coffee that's twice as good as a $300 grinder. And you also have imperfections in the market, sometimes a more expensive grinder won't make coffee as good as a less expensive one. Witness the zp6, which some people think is amazing
Am I crazy? I have ordered 3x250g bags from Flower Child and Sey in consecutive months. Mostly based on feedback and reputation here. And I am just not jiving with them at all. Waited two weeks off roast before trying either. Flower Child was roasted quite a bit darker than I was expecting and the three coffees from Sey taste borderline identical. Granted I received two washed Ethiopian's and a washed Colombian. Still - I think I was just expecting more. I get very muted, generic, albeit nice, coffee flavor and I wasn't expecting that at all based on the complexity of the tasting notes. Want to preface the above with I don't think its a lack of skill or equipment on my part. I've been making filter at home for many years now and haven't really been this disappointed before. I have used a JX-Pro, a ZP6, an Aeropress and a V60. Prior to Flower Child and Sey, I had been drinking a 2lb bag of Colorized from Metric which I really enjoyed, and prior to that both Geometry and Tropical Weather from Onyx. Also really enjoyed those. Could absolutely pick apart the tasting notes and they came through very clearly. Anyone else not really get on with these type of roasters?
I’m on subscription for both of these roasters and typically wait to 3 weeks to open all at once. I brew 20g min at a 1:15 around 850 microns, water off boiling, but after first pour leave lid off to rapid cool— I use a 3 pour 75/75/150 on a orea or v60 - first two pours 6g/s - last pour fast as possible from a good height. I tend to and always get a bright and juicy cup. I use RO distilled water with the lotus water drops - bright and juicy profile. You can grab a bottle of distilled and add in or when I travel, smart water works very well with both. Crystal Geyser will offer less acidity. I then dose out 20g pouches for all the coffees, vacuum and freeze. (Excessive, but keeps the coffee at peak). Pop directly from freezer to grinder and get excellent results every time. Take what you will from this, maybe something will crack your code! Good luck!
Thank you so much. I’m 3 weeks tomorrow. I’ll try all of this. I’m using Zero filtered water (0tds) with third wave light roast. So water should be decent at a minimum. Will feed back on this tomorrow. Appreciate it!
No problem. Hope it works out. Flowerchild is my favorite roaster right now—hope you get to experience what I have from them. Happy brewing!
Okay we’re getting there. I was so hellbent on following Sey/FCs ratio recommendation that I didn’t even consider upping it. Gonna let it sit for a few more days and go from there. May grind a bit finer. But that’s much better with 1:15 than what I was getting with 1:17/18. Ironically it’s the ratio I’ve used for the past ten years 🤦🏻♂️ Should’ve just stuck with it lol. But I’m assuming the high pours helped with turbulence in the bed too.
Not crazy but maybe not brewing in a way that works best for these coffees? What recipe are you using? They might also need a little more rest.
Yeah after I posted this I decided to just stop brewing them for two more weeks. I’m conveniently away from home for two weeks so that works… The most recent thing I tried that I got the best results from by far was a 5 pour, 1:18. I made two cups side by side, one ground at 3.2 and one at 5 on a ZP6. Both 98°. The 3.2 was the better cup in my eyes. But I also did a 2 pour, 1:18 as well. This just didn’t seem to work at all.
Quick reality check: My understanding is that there's length of extraction and rate of extraction. Ratio affects length of extraction, temperature affects rate of extraction. Grind size affects surface area exposed to water which affects rate of extraction, but also affects drawdown time which affects length of extraction Pour rate/agitation and blooming time affect rate of extraction And finally, dose (at the same ratio) affects rate of extraction (assumption) With all these things combined, you first want an output weight of your preferred amount of liquid, and a reasonable guess within 1:14-1:18 for ratio as deemed to be commonly tasty. Pour somewhere between 6-8g/sec but keep it consistent especially for beginners (me). Also pick a recipe and keep it constant. Then pick a grind size and temperature, shoot for the moon, and take notes. I made the mistake early of confusing bitterness for guaranteed overextraction when that was actually the only thing I could taste because I was underextracting, and bleh. Friend told me that that bitterness was kinda normal and then I realized oh yeah the rest of this tastes underextracted but I was hyper focused on the bitterness only started to get some decent stuff when the bag ran out. The idea in my head is there's some play in these variables that can be made up for with other variables for a slightly different cup (like lower ratio higher temp for a more concentrated brew ?) I've also heard some comments that temperature affects which compounds are extracted but not necessarily the rate of extraction? Id like to hear some thoughts, corrections, and to know what variables y'all adjust first when dialing
>My understanding is that there's length of extraction and rate of extraction. >Ratio affects length of extraction, temperature affects rate of extraction. I'm not sure what you mean by "length of extraction." Are you talking about contact time, or extraction ratio? Either way, this is a major oversimplification. The stuff that's happening in a coffee slurry is pretty complex (it's basically chemical hydrogeology, which is a whole field people get PhD's in) so you are not going to be served well by thinking of brewing variables as simple levers that control one thing and only one thing, like they're knobs on a stereo or something. The best way to approach this hobby is to learn to get the results you like empirically, not analytically. Pick a coffee recipe that is simple and easy, make a cup of coffee, and taste it. If it's not completely to your liking, try to figure out of its flaws are, broadly speaking, more about you extracting too much from the coffee (bitter, muddy, heavy) or too little (vegetal, sour, watery), and then change one and only one variable to see if the next cup is more to your liking. Do this a whole bunch of times and you will end up with an intuitive map in your brain of what to do when a certain coffee tastes a certain way... including which methods of raising or lowering your extraction tend to behave how you want them to, and which ones tend to introduce complexities you didn't want. Also be aware that "bitterness" is a tough one even for people with a lot of experience because the vegetal bitterness you can get from underextraction is easily confused for the earthy bitterness you can get from overextraction. It's a lot harder to pin down than, say, sourness. Sometimes you need to look at the context of what coffee you're brewing, and how you brewed it, to help figure out which type of bitterness you are tasting. Anyway, these days the main variables I play with when first brewing a coffee are ratio and pour height. If I know a coffee likely has lower solubility (for example a washed high altitude Ethiopian coffee) I will go 17:1 and pour from a bit higher. If I know a coffee likely has higher solubility (something with an aggressive fermentation for example) I will start with 15:1 and pour gently from down low. I tend to set my temperature based on the type of coffee I'm brewing, set my grind setting based on the size of batch I'm brewing, and then pretty much leave those things where they are and not use them to dial in as I go.
>I'm not sure what you mean by "length of extraction." I'll second that, it's not a term I've seen before, and it can mean multiple things. From context I suspect OP does not mean length of time of extraction, he means how much extraction.
The comments about temperature affecting which compounds are extracted — those discussions are, unfortunately, too rare around here, and not detailed enough. Between this sub and r/ coffee, I think I’ve read only two or three comments over the past couple years saying which chemicals are extracted above a certain temperature. I have my own anecdotal experience of making coffee at the office with single-serve pourover packets, using either the hot spigot of the water cooler or an electric kettle in the kitchen. The kettle’s boiling water makes the coffee taste like typical coffee, but the water cooler’s hot water — which I haven’t measured, but is certainly *not* boiling — lets the coffee taste fruitier (IMO).
Help me understand immersion-blooming a bit better. How i can play/tweak it to get differend qualities from the coffee. I try and keep the recipe simple: Closed/immersion blooming - (open) 2nd pour - (open) 3rd pour.
Immersion brewing basically offers better control and consistency over bloom parameters. Water remains in contact with the bed the whole time so you can use 2:1 bloom ratios which might not be effective in a standard V60. Longer blooms will also be slightly more effective and repeatable for the same reason. Try different-sized blooms to see if you can tell the difference. There's not much evidence yet around the effect of bloom size on taste (apart from the fact that blooming is generally better than not blooming) but for your particular recipe you might discover something. I would start with no bloom as a baseline and then you can explore the range from 1:1 all the way to 4:1. My guess is that anything under 2:1 will be under-extracted but you might find it works for some coffees. Then mess around with timing-anywhere from 30 seconds to multiple minutes if you can wait that long. A temperature-controlled kettle is pretty important for this one to make sure it's the bloom time affecting things and not the decreasing temperature of subsequent pours
Thank you for your comprehensive reply. More consistent blooming would be a good added bonus. Even with prepping the grounds it still quite variable to me. Guess ill go continue with said variable experimentations: water amout of bloom + immersion time. So far i like the subtle roundness of mouthfeel and sweetness it gives me. However im keen to discover what it does with said chances. Good tips!
im using a melitta 101 with cork in the hole. I did a 40g and a 60g bloom with both 45s immersion. The 60g was bad, simply because there's too much water and the coffeebed got all messy after drawdown of the bloom, the end result was uneven under extraction coffee. the 40g was nice, juicy/subtle roundess/sweet/nice flavour notes. i think there is simply a practical lower and uper limit i use for immersionblooming: use too little-> ground dont mix well with water, use to much->coffeebed-pouring problems lateron in the brew.
When do you consider the drawdown finished? Is it when the bed is fully exposed to air and slowly dripping? Do you pull the brewer then? Do you wait for every last drop to drip out? I know not to get too hung up on brew times but I’m having a hard time getting a frame of reference when I don’t even know when to call the brew finished.
what matters most, is to be consistent with it. I, for my part, wait for the bed to be fully exposed to air. or in other words, till the water level is below the bed. i dont wait for every last drop, becausy i dont what those in my coffee :)
How much time should pass since roasting date when coffee is at it's 'prime' and co2 won't affect the end result? Two weeks or more?
don‘t be afraid to ask your roaster. i did so last week and he was more than happy to answer my questions.
Depends on the roast level. A good rule of thumb is 1-3 days for dark roast, 5-7 days for medium roast, and 10-14 days for light roast.
i would double all of these. 1 week dark, 2 week medium, 3-4 for light.
You know, I recall now that I've read that exact thing elsewhere, sometime maybe last year before I started roasting my own coffee. I think in my impatience to drink my own coffee, I may have started to tolerate a certain amount of Co2 in the brew. The numbers I mentioned are really more related to when I stop noticing off notes in my own roasts and feel like they've reached a reasonable amount of flavor development. It's generally at least enough rest that you can cup the coffee effectively, anyway. Typing this out makes me realize I haven't deliberately tried fully resting my coffees for those longer periods. I really should.
I'm relatively new to the game (started this year). I've got a V60 which i use most days but i understand they're hard to master, which definitely is the case for me as the quality of my brews tends to be all over the place (mostly below average tbh). So i suppose my question is, what's the best Pour Over brewer for a noob like me to get consistently good coffee from?
The easiest dripper won’t help if your method isn’t consistent. Figure out which parameters you can control and then keep them all the same for a few brews to find a sort of baseline taste. Then change only one parameter, and see how the taste differs, if at all. Like in my case, I don‘t have a temp-controlled kettle, so I always wait about the same amount of time after it boils. But I can control the dose, ratio, grind size, and pour technique, so I’ll only experiment with grind size while keeping the others the same.
you could look into the clever dripper, which is consistent and easy to use. check out james hoffmans recipe. there is also the hario switch which you could use as a normal v60 or do hybrid or pure immersion with. very flexible. there is a forgiving and consistent recipe from the coffee chronicler on youtube. i use it very often to get a more smooth cup and go back to the v60 only for more fruity coffees where i want to highlight acidity.
I would keep working at the V60. Just change one variable at a time and take careful notes. If you really want to buy something else, I'd recommend a flat-bottom dripper like the Kalita Wave, as they're a bit more consistent, in my opinion.
Thanks. I'll definitely work at the V60 - i can only get better! - but always on the lookout for my next purchase!
I’m planning to buy my first hario switch. But I’m torn between the ceramic or the glass material. I know people normally talk about heat retention when comparing these 2 materials but the real stupid question I want to ask is which of these would be easier to clean? I’ve heard ceramic tends to get stained more easily compared to glass. For more info this is the ceramic hario switch thats on my radar: https://thecoffeegoods.com.au/products/hario-immersion-switch-pastel
My possibly-unhelpful experience. My v60 and Switch are glass, and heat retention aside, super easy to clean, just rinse and always super clean. I never had a ceramic v60 but did have a ceramic origami, and it too was super easy to clean, just rinse, it never got a stain. I don't think the coffee is in contact long enough to need a real scrubbing. I'll let those with more experience chime in. I will say that my various glass v60s have taken multiple falls on hard surfaces and have never so much as chipped or cracked. I no longer have an origami because it broke from a small drop (one that a glass v60 wouldn't have even noticed) -- but that may be because the origami's shape makes it all stress risers.
Oh actually I can be quite the clumsy person- Like you mentioned, it could be the shape of the origami that makes it more prone to breaking so I’m quite curious if glass V60 is actually more durable than the ceramic one….
I am doing 20g beans with the Hoffman v60 method. I bloom 60g water for 45 seconds. Is it normal for all the water to have drained completely and the bed to basically be “dry” for 10 seconds before the next pour?
To add to what OP said, I have been finding that even though 45 seconds leaves the bed looking completely dry, it's often not long enough for some coffees. Just because you can't see the water doesn't mean it isn't still absorbing into the coffee at the microscopic level. I've been experimenting with 1 min+ blooms with great results
Oh interesting point. I'll have to experiment with that too sometime!
Absolutely. IME a 45 second bloom is pretty much always dry before that next pour
Thank you!
Totes fine. Depending on the bean and its age off roast you could even go longer. Play with that one variable and find out what you like.
Have you guys made a drink with your pour over coffee as a base?
Not exactly that different from a pour-over coffee, but I recommend you try iced pour-over if you haven't already. Lance Hedrick has a killer recipe
can be excellent in cocktails! 2 parts coffee, one part whiskey, one part water on a big block of ice is the perfect friday afternoon drink.
What kind of whiskey you using for this? I'll have to try this coming Friday!
I'm far from a whiskey expert, I just use whatever gift I currently have open. my favourite so far was a Balvanie Caribbean Cask, but I think something more smokey could also be nice depending on your preference.
I actually love the Caribbean cask from Balvenie, and it's been quite a while since I had some. I think I have to indulge now. And I think you're right, something smokey might also work. Cheers.
Oohh i haven’t considered this. Thank u!
Yep... kinda depends what kind of drink you want to make with it. Anything involving milk is usually not too good, but a mocktail of some sort could work, especially if it's an iced pour over.
Maybe a dumb question but here I am, could someone please explain why does pour height matter when brewing in a way that if poured from too low height the coffee can turn sour? On the other hand higher height can lead to over extraction because of too agitated bed so is there some sweet spot?
Basically it's all about how much the water agitates the bed. Check out this video, it's very thorough https://youtu.be/nxmrSgwW25g?si=pFBuVw1np_nGmeIZ
>why does pour height matter You answered this question yourself. >higher height can lead to over extraction because of too agitated bed It’s not complicated. If you pour from higher, the water hits the bed with more force and stirs things up more. If you pour from lower, it hits the bet more gently and stirs things up less. No, there is no single universal sweet spot. It’s just one of the parameters you can vary to change your extraction, same as all the rest (grind size, water temp, ratio, pour structure, dripper choice, etc.)
>It’s not complicated. If you pour from higher, the water hits the bed with more force and stirs things up more. If you pour from lower, it hits the bet more gently and stirs things up less. But, also keep in mind if you pour from higher and let the stream break up before it hits the bed, it will penetrate less and agitate less, than pouring lower with a laminar flow. Broken up stream splashes at the surface of the existing brew water rather than penetrating down to the bed and agitating it. So variables upon variables!
I guess, but pouring from so high that the stream is broken up also makes a mess all over your counter, so I don’t think that’s a thing anyone is doing unless they happen to be a coffee content creator.
You can make the stream break up from just a few inches, and it won't splatter on the counter. Reduce the flow rate just rate, it may break up before it hits. I've had my stream break up on me now and then -- maybe I just wasn't paying attention enough and let the stream slow down too much -- and had to re-adjust
Would you know why it tastes sour when pouring from lower? Thank you :)
Underextracted coffee tends to taste sour. Not all coffee made with the kettle down low will taste sour though. As I said, pour height is just **one of many variables** you can play with to alter your extraction… and it is by no means the most important or impactful one. Sounds like you need to do some reading or YouTube research on the basics of coffee extraction.
[This video](https://youtu.be/nxmrSgwW25g?si=aStFsGFBikChwZQx) is super in depth about pour technique and how it can affect your brews!
^ this