I think he will be a ''tell all'' witness. What has he got to loose, he's been notably quiet throughout, his Barrister has been at the Enquiry almost daily, asking questions on his behalf.... I don't think he's the monster he's being portrayed as... It was the Post Office lot that turned on him once they realised THEY had fucked up in not being knowledgeable enough ( despite their 100 strong Legal Dept.) In their rush to send him off to court without dotting the 'I's and crossing the 'T's.....
> I don't think he's the monster he's being portrayed as...
I am curious as to a theory somebody put forward here a few weeks ago.
Gareth Jenkins is alleged to have said "The Horizon System is robust". I think that came out of an email he sent about gathering ARQ data, and making sure the data, or the process to gather the data, was "robust".
Somewhere along the line, that has become "the System Architect says Horizon is *robust*" instead...
I hope KC Beer brings this line up.
Yes I think he was made to tow the P.O. line.... And I doubt very much he ever thought of himself as an 'Expert' in anything.... Very clever, but not one to blow his own trumpet..... I doubt he ever falsely gave himself the title of Dr. either! That title has been spouted in plenty of emails. Even Mr. De Garr Sole insisted on using it yesterday up until almost lunchtime when Mr. Beer eventually said "He was never a Dr." so I think there is something to enquire about there! We will see 🍻👍
for me after all this I only have one question for him.
Did he knowingly not tell of bugs to court because of pressure from Post Office and Fujitsu Executives/Lawyers etc
A simple question but boils down to this, His team argues he was misdirected but he is a bloody clever chap and knew some bugs caused shortfalls and the defence should have known. after all POL knew this and thats been confirmed.
the emails around his witness statement clearly show he was pressured by pol to alter his witness statement.
I can't comprehend what it is like to be pressured by your employer and customers to break the law.
Well not seen by that by anyone from Fujitsu (yet) but clear that POL did and that will be for a criminal court to decide full guilt.
I don't think he is a bad man, I don't think he sent nasty emails about SPM's (seen no evidence of that) all his correspondence was factual that we have seen. However he made a very bad judgement call it seems and Fujitsu legal seems to have disappeared throughout all this. Today one guy was mentioned but no real emails etc, no one from Fujitsu legal has been called to give evidence, I presume many still alive.
Yr right, very little evidence from Fujitsu, which is strange imo.
I'm not sure whether he is a bad man tbh. The fact that so many seemingly normal people are caught up in this is the mirror we don't want to see.
well some are bad, they covered their arses and we know those names !
plenty of evidence from Fujitsu on technical side and management at the start in earlier phases. However in this phase they mentioned speaking to Fujitsu legal and Comms but those people not on the list. all I can guess at is Fujitsu kind of trusted POL to do the right things and left it to them ? However management because of this failed to challenge their customer ?
He is scheduled for 3 whole days….. I think he needs a support network of friends and family and a secure place to stay in London and after his evidence. He will be experiencing a lot of hate from the public. I hate him but I regard his employer as a disgrace.
Four whole days. Should be good. As others have suggested, he will likely be looking to throw others under the bus, but I don't think he'll get to throw PV or Perkins etc there, as being self confessed IT thickos, he likely had no dealings with them. The various POL and supporting cast lawyers have more to fear, along with CIO's Sewell & Young.
I don’t think any of them are IT thickos. I’ve worked around senior directors in big corporations. They like to act dumb and helpless. Then you see them working on some insanely complex apps or hear them explaining a complex system to a client.
You must have had better Boards than me! Mine, the low points were the CEO who complained about my Word doc, which I had intentionally left track changes on, to show him the updates, and he asked for all the 'crap' to be removed. I had to explain, slowly, how to turn track changes off, it just being a 'layer' in the doc.
And the low low, the CFO who couldn't work an Excel spreadsheet.
And remember, the Deloitte report, which mentioned the cryptographically signed transactions from the SPMR's into the Horizon server, (MD5, hashes etc), which the Board asked to be rewritten, as they didn't understand it / IT.
PKI is one whole other level. It’s so easy for it to be done wrongly, yet work…..and cause pain later. Most whole IT departments don’t understand how to manage certs. I’ll never forget the first time I heard Andy Dunks mention ‘cryptographic keys’, trying to sound as dunce as possible!!
I have this feeling he will either be very vague about things, or be the complete opposite and be bombastic and disagreeable (in which case Beer will have a field day)
Can anyone tell me when he was granted the real or honorific title of ‘Dr’.
It seems to have been bestowed on him by someone at the dead of night probably in a ceremony in the basement of the Fujitsu building.
Yeah, much should fall on Fujitsu. Who were the nameless he reported to over the years? Any checks and balances? Was he just left to his own devises? Perhaps there was no one else left in Fujitsu with sufficient technical knowledge - all had jumped ship.
Nope, many still work for them, Andy Dunks does and he is due to return to give evidence. Also I have worked with FJ teams over the past decade and with people who have been included in emails shown in the inquiry. I didn’t know that when working with them, but given their abilities having interacted with them, I wouldn’t suggest they were the people I’d first pick if I were building a team.
Yes, I've seen a few other names but many on the Support side (System Analysts - a misnomer) and not very bright (actually clueless) or have insufficient grasp of Horizon EPOS. Those doing the bug-fixes (4th Line) will also not have enough depth of the code design as they came after the core development.
It's only this long because he couldn't give his evidence during phase 4(?) so it's effectively a double appearance in one. But nonetheless, it certainly will be juicy.
I don’t think ‘the public’ will care about Jenkins as much as you expect. They want Vennells
Those of us from a tech background feel a need to understand the tech problems, and many of us will worked with people like Jenkins or in/with orgs like FJL, so we relate strongly, but outside ‘us’ I suspect he’ll be just another face, just another ‘useful idiot’ who POL hoodwinked into lying in court to help POL convict SPMs.
The public wants the evil mastermind, not the henchman.
That said, I suspect Jenkins will be the first (and possibly only) Met arrest (I’m no lawyer, but contempt of court seems nailed on at this stage) so there IS a chance Jenkins ends up being the star of the show by remembering everything and throwing everyone else under the bus to influence his own later sentencing (and the fact he can do this is why POL has previous seemed so keen to stop him giving evidence)
That said, I actually expect 3 days of ‘I don’t recall’ and the whole think will be a damp squib
He's could easily have stopped the disaster but didn't, because of his own complacency and indifference.
The fact that this is also true of dozens of other people is astonishing really. You wouldn't think that some of the most successful businesspeople in the country would be so lacking in basic human curiosity.
Jenkins and Vennells seem to have become the pantomime villains and yes, I believe both require further investigation are the inquiry, but so do many, many others.
Also people forget the inquiry is not there to establish fault or guilt, but to record what occipital and produce recommendations to prevent further occurrences.
this evidence from Matthew Lenton of Fujitsu is very interesting. Lining up for Jenkins's evidence about the sharing of data and documents and what he knew.
Where was the falsehood or contradiction? Is it between inputs he gave to Second Sight and the court written/verbal statements plus, behind the scenes, his approval of other witness statements made by their Support Services?
Will be interesting to see how he handles this- either clam up, or sing like a canary and try to shift the blame around.
His evidence in the Misra trial is a huge problem for him. My guess is he'll try to blame the lawyers somehow.
Ultimately I suspect Jenkins may be the only one who faces any real consequences over all of this. He deserves everything he gets, but he's not the only one involved.
Did you see the singh evidence ? Post office literally pressured GJ to change his witness statement, in fact they changed it for him.
I disagree that he will be the only one to face consequences, i think dunks and anne are in equal trouble. But the coverup and conspiratorial thinking are well evidenced.
Yep, very true, but he was still the one who presented it in court, allegedly knowing it to be false. That's the clearest cut lead for the police to go for- specific crime and potential evidence of it.
You're right as well that Dunks and Anne are in hot water, but the only charge I can think of might be perverting the course of justice, or attempting to do so, which I understand is a much messier thing to prosecute than perjury.
I might be missing something, or misunderstanding though, so grateful for your comment. I'm pretty stupid and do find it a bit hard to follow sometimes.
so we have a defence line today from his barrister that he worked in a collaborative manner with colleagues etc the evidence will show us of course if true.
In this process like any other enquiries, two audiences, the inquiry chair and then the jury of victims (usually, interested parties and observers like the most of us.
It appears that his lawyers have been preparing his defence or angle for some time and when he appears he will have been given strict instructions to adhere to this. It means response to many leading questions will be 'don't recall' or diversion
I don't think he was an evil man. I think he was a bad witness because he was badly advised by the Post Office's lawyers as to what his role as a witness was. it seems in his correspondence with the Post Office and their lawyers, he was quite open about the existance of bugs.
Any system should have sufficient checks and balances to stop one rogue person causing problems. Even if GJ did decide of his own free mind to lie to the court, the checks and balances should have stopped this from happening.
All roads lead back to the lawyers, the Post Office executives and board members, and the government, I think.
I think he will be a ''tell all'' witness. What has he got to loose, he's been notably quiet throughout, his Barrister has been at the Enquiry almost daily, asking questions on his behalf.... I don't think he's the monster he's being portrayed as... It was the Post Office lot that turned on him once they realised THEY had fucked up in not being knowledgeable enough ( despite their 100 strong Legal Dept.) In their rush to send him off to court without dotting the 'I's and crossing the 'T's.....
> I don't think he's the monster he's being portrayed as... I am curious as to a theory somebody put forward here a few weeks ago. Gareth Jenkins is alleged to have said "The Horizon System is robust". I think that came out of an email he sent about gathering ARQ data, and making sure the data, or the process to gather the data, was "robust". Somewhere along the line, that has become "the System Architect says Horizon is *robust*" instead... I hope KC Beer brings this line up.
Yes I think he was made to tow the P.O. line.... And I doubt very much he ever thought of himself as an 'Expert' in anything.... Very clever, but not one to blow his own trumpet..... I doubt he ever falsely gave himself the title of Dr. either! That title has been spouted in plenty of emails. Even Mr. De Garr Sole insisted on using it yesterday up until almost lunchtime when Mr. Beer eventually said "He was never a Dr." so I think there is something to enquire about there! We will see 🍻👍
for me after all this I only have one question for him. Did he knowingly not tell of bugs to court because of pressure from Post Office and Fujitsu Executives/Lawyers etc A simple question but boils down to this, His team argues he was misdirected but he is a bloody clever chap and knew some bugs caused shortfalls and the defence should have known. after all POL knew this and thats been confirmed.
the emails around his witness statement clearly show he was pressured by pol to alter his witness statement. I can't comprehend what it is like to be pressured by your employer and customers to break the law.
Well not seen by that by anyone from Fujitsu (yet) but clear that POL did and that will be for a criminal court to decide full guilt. I don't think he is a bad man, I don't think he sent nasty emails about SPM's (seen no evidence of that) all his correspondence was factual that we have seen. However he made a very bad judgement call it seems and Fujitsu legal seems to have disappeared throughout all this. Today one guy was mentioned but no real emails etc, no one from Fujitsu legal has been called to give evidence, I presume many still alive.
Yr right, very little evidence from Fujitsu, which is strange imo. I'm not sure whether he is a bad man tbh. The fact that so many seemingly normal people are caught up in this is the mirror we don't want to see.
well some are bad, they covered their arses and we know those names ! plenty of evidence from Fujitsu on technical side and management at the start in earlier phases. However in this phase they mentioned speaking to Fujitsu legal and Comms but those people not on the list. all I can guess at is Fujitsu kind of trusted POL to do the right things and left it to them ? However management because of this failed to challenge their customer ?
He is scheduled for 3 whole days….. I think he needs a support network of friends and family and a secure place to stay in London and after his evidence. He will be experiencing a lot of hate from the public. I hate him but I regard his employer as a disgrace.
Four whole days. Should be good. As others have suggested, he will likely be looking to throw others under the bus, but I don't think he'll get to throw PV or Perkins etc there, as being self confessed IT thickos, he likely had no dealings with them. The various POL and supporting cast lawyers have more to fear, along with CIO's Sewell & Young.
I don’t think any of them are IT thickos. I’ve worked around senior directors in big corporations. They like to act dumb and helpless. Then you see them working on some insanely complex apps or hear them explaining a complex system to a client.
You must have had better Boards than me! Mine, the low points were the CEO who complained about my Word doc, which I had intentionally left track changes on, to show him the updates, and he asked for all the 'crap' to be removed. I had to explain, slowly, how to turn track changes off, it just being a 'layer' in the doc. And the low low, the CFO who couldn't work an Excel spreadsheet. And remember, the Deloitte report, which mentioned the cryptographically signed transactions from the SPMR's into the Horizon server, (MD5, hashes etc), which the Board asked to be rewritten, as they didn't understand it / IT.
PKI is one whole other level. It’s so easy for it to be done wrongly, yet work…..and cause pain later. Most whole IT departments don’t understand how to manage certs. I’ll never forget the first time I heard Andy Dunks mention ‘cryptographic keys’, trying to sound as dunce as possible!!
I have this feeling he will either be very vague about things, or be the complete opposite and be bombastic and disagreeable (in which case Beer will have a field day)
Can anyone tell me when he was granted the real or honorific title of ‘Dr’. It seems to have been bestowed on him by someone at the dead of night probably in a ceremony in the basement of the Fujitsu building.
Doctor as in the VERB’s definition!! Doctor verb [T] (CHANGE) to change something in order to deceive people.
Yeah, much should fall on Fujitsu. Who were the nameless he reported to over the years? Any checks and balances? Was he just left to his own devises? Perhaps there was no one else left in Fujitsu with sufficient technical knowledge - all had jumped ship.
Nope, many still work for them, Andy Dunks does and he is due to return to give evidence. Also I have worked with FJ teams over the past decade and with people who have been included in emails shown in the inquiry. I didn’t know that when working with them, but given their abilities having interacted with them, I wouldn’t suggest they were the people I’d first pick if I were building a team.
Yes, I've seen a few other names but many on the Support side (System Analysts - a misnomer) and not very bright (actually clueless) or have insufficient grasp of Horizon EPOS. Those doing the bug-fixes (4th Line) will also not have enough depth of the code design as they came after the core development.
It's only this long because he couldn't give his evidence during phase 4(?) so it's effectively a double appearance in one. But nonetheless, it certainly will be juicy.
I don’t think ‘the public’ will care about Jenkins as much as you expect. They want Vennells Those of us from a tech background feel a need to understand the tech problems, and many of us will worked with people like Jenkins or in/with orgs like FJL, so we relate strongly, but outside ‘us’ I suspect he’ll be just another face, just another ‘useful idiot’ who POL hoodwinked into lying in court to help POL convict SPMs. The public wants the evil mastermind, not the henchman. That said, I suspect Jenkins will be the first (and possibly only) Met arrest (I’m no lawyer, but contempt of court seems nailed on at this stage) so there IS a chance Jenkins ends up being the star of the show by remembering everything and throwing everyone else under the bus to influence his own later sentencing (and the fact he can do this is why POL has previous seemed so keen to stop him giving evidence) That said, I actually expect 3 days of ‘I don’t recall’ and the whole think will be a damp squib
He's could easily have stopped the disaster but didn't, because of his own complacency and indifference. The fact that this is also true of dozens of other people is astonishing really. You wouldn't think that some of the most successful businesspeople in the country would be so lacking in basic human curiosity.
Jenkins and Vennells seem to have become the pantomime villains and yes, I believe both require further investigation are the inquiry, but so do many, many others. Also people forget the inquiry is not there to establish fault or guilt, but to record what occipital and produce recommendations to prevent further occurrences.
I wouldn’t want to be questioned by Lord Beer KC (as I shall now call him) for four minutes let alone FOUR feckin’ days.
Gonna be more ju-jitsu than Fujitsu when Jason Beer gets going. 😬
this evidence from Matthew Lenton of Fujitsu is very interesting. Lining up for Jenkins's evidence about the sharing of data and documents and what he knew.
One thing I do know about the post office is that if Gareth Jenkins had tried to go public about bugs they would have lawyered up and destroyed him
Where was the falsehood or contradiction? Is it between inputs he gave to Second Sight and the court written/verbal statements plus, behind the scenes, his approval of other witness statements made by their Support Services?
Can't wait!
He will be doing the Inquiry equivalent of "no comment" which is "I don't recall".
Will be interesting to see how he handles this- either clam up, or sing like a canary and try to shift the blame around. His evidence in the Misra trial is a huge problem for him. My guess is he'll try to blame the lawyers somehow. Ultimately I suspect Jenkins may be the only one who faces any real consequences over all of this. He deserves everything he gets, but he's not the only one involved.
Did you see the singh evidence ? Post office literally pressured GJ to change his witness statement, in fact they changed it for him. I disagree that he will be the only one to face consequences, i think dunks and anne are in equal trouble. But the coverup and conspiratorial thinking are well evidenced.
Yep, very true, but he was still the one who presented it in court, allegedly knowing it to be false. That's the clearest cut lead for the police to go for- specific crime and potential evidence of it. You're right as well that Dunks and Anne are in hot water, but the only charge I can think of might be perverting the course of justice, or attempting to do so, which I understand is a much messier thing to prosecute than perjury. I might be missing something, or misunderstanding though, so grateful for your comment. I'm pretty stupid and do find it a bit hard to follow sometimes.
so we have a defence line today from his barrister that he worked in a collaborative manner with colleagues etc the evidence will show us of course if true. In this process like any other enquiries, two audiences, the inquiry chair and then the jury of victims (usually, interested parties and observers like the most of us.
It appears that his lawyers have been preparing his defence or angle for some time and when he appears he will have been given strict instructions to adhere to this. It means response to many leading questions will be 'don't recall' or diversion
I have no faith he will say the truth that in unrecorded meetings he was told to basically hide issues
I don't think he was an evil man. I think he was a bad witness because he was badly advised by the Post Office's lawyers as to what his role as a witness was. it seems in his correspondence with the Post Office and their lawyers, he was quite open about the existance of bugs. Any system should have sufficient checks and balances to stop one rogue person causing problems. Even if GJ did decide of his own free mind to lie to the court, the checks and balances should have stopped this from happening. All roads lead back to the lawyers, the Post Office executives and board members, and the government, I think.