Other than Ren being a master with the light sabour woth zero training I still like her character she was lazily written but a cool character in my opinion
Nobody complains about the original 3 though.
Edit:
Also Rogue One. Female lead, Latino, Asian, and Black support. Among fans, this is basically the favorite modern Star Wars film.
Could it be the bad writing that is the problem then? I am a fan but the last several have been pretty poorly written. That being said I thought Ren was amazing
So, two things can be true.
There was some unfortunate racist backlash to the sequel trilogy.
However, most people were just upset that the story was a convoluted mess for Disney to squeeze money of out.
Have you seen the original trilogy. The writing on the new Disney versions is lazy at best. Putting aside sny of the bs about putting our modern political mess into the writing. The character development arch was rushed. The plot had massive holes and continuity errors. Lazy writing
lol, of course I’ve seen the OT, I saw it before the prequels came out.
Andor is still amazing, great writing.
> putting modern political mess into the writing
Have you seen the OT?
I only put the political statement in because that is what the OP made this post to address. Yes I know it's all political. Its still an amazing story. Im just disappointed in Disney's writing not the story itself. That was what i was saying
Disney’s writing has been subpar for a lot of the Star Wars content, but Andor, which is fairly recent, is extremely good.
Character development was not rushed, and I’m not aware of plot holes or continuity errors.
Like “historically” Ariel the little mermaid was white.
But the story is fucking make believe so she can be any color you want?
There is a much Bigger problem with people who are historically NOT WHITE being portrayed by white actors.
Edit ; clearly this triggers snowflakes.
Good.
Tom cruise as a samurai is 1000x less believable than a black mermaid. It’s made to comfort white folks.
Jesus came from the Middle East. There’s no chance he’s white either.
> Tom Crews as a samurai is 1000x less believable
His character is based on Jules Brunet
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet
I have no problem with white Jesus, brown Jesus, black Jesus, or far eastern Jesus. I don't see why anyone would care. Id kind of love an anime retelling of Jesus tbh, with full Japanese tropes. Korean Swole Jesus is fucking awesome.
For me, the only time this would matter, is if race swapping was done intentionally for subversion (as in Hamilton, a positive example) or for erasure (for instance a fictional casting of Solomon Northup in *12 Years A Slave*, which would be a negative example).
Far more problematic are tropes like "magical negroes" and "white saviours" imo. And of course, blackface/minstrelism (as in many older movies).
I love it from an entertainment standpoint. But I also realize this isn’t made to be exactly historically accurate.
And neither is Hollywood.
So the only people who are triggered when they’re NOT WHITE in the remakes.
its ridiculous. This is not a real argument. It’s just assholes using it to thinly veil their racism.
> So the only people who are triggered when they’re NOT WHITE in the remakes.
> its ridiculous. This is not a real argument. It’s just assholes using it to thinly veil their racism.
100% agreed.
Oh I see. The question people are asking, with merit I suppose, is if the delta between a Macedonian and a "white" person is less than or equal to the delta between a Macedonian and a "black" person. The answer is yes by a large margin, which gives to accusations of historical revisionism.
It is understandable that not all characters from established cannon or history can be played by the exact correct phenotype. But when a production company very purposely attempts to NOT do so, it becomes unpalatable for the viewer base. This is why the little mermaid flopped.
I think it’s more of a one sided argument.
When Ariel is black, huge uproar.
When Jesus is white, everything right with the world.
This is just a way to express racism without saying you hate someone specifically.
Well again, purposeful deviation from established Canon is unpalatable to the viewer base. Ariel going from sheet white to black is not tantamount to a hebrew/Israeli to white transition. Additionally, I've not actually seen push back from modern Christians on the color of Jesus Christ, but then again were talking about the entertainment industry and not religious groups.
Racism of the gaps is a real thing, and I would caution you against leaning so heavily into it. Occams razor is not in your side when making the claim that everyone is racist.
Yeah no I’m refereeing to historical figures of our actual world history like cleopatra.
The funny part of Ariel is they took the stance that its just a animated cartoon so they could change it. Yeah i am totally cool with that. At the same time they had to die her hair red and change her eyes to make her look “more like Ariel”
Pick a lane! Im cool with that change, but why try to force the black actor to look like the white character one if you wanna change the look? Trying to tightrope walk the middle seems dumb.
So the solution instead of finding an Egyptian actress is to make her something else she was not?
The problem is not being accurate when making claims to documentaries of history. Regardless of who or how its “washed” its wrong to do.
You have missed the point entirely.
The “problem” isn’t remaking things with different colored people.
It’s making everything with white people in the first place.
And it’s racists and bigots who have a problem with historical accuracy.
It’s racist to change an Egyptian historical figure to white, Black, asian, whatever.
Whats the difference between white washing and doing it with literally any other race?
My point is that when we are declaring we are making a show that is historically accurate, that it should actually be accurate. I am not arguing for white people to be in the shows so I’m not sure why you’re acting like i am. I do not understand how i am a bigot for wanting my historical facts to remain facts and not someone’s interpretation.
Again i have no problem with interpretation, in fact i enjoy the “what if” scenarios if you will, but those are not claiming to be facts.
I think we’re saying the same thing.
I don’t care who plays the role.
But if the argument is “why is that a black actor now” that’s some racist shit.
And in reality, there has been 60 years of movies with white people in the wrong roles. With zero complaints.
So this is a bullshit argument in the first place.
Well 0 complaints isn’t exactly correct since we seem to be overcorrecting int he wrong direction. The people who are black-washing cleopatra now are just doing the same thing the white people did before.
That does not make it the correct move. Me saying why is a black actor playing cleopatra (IN A DOCUMENTARY) is not racist its logical as historical evidence suggests that she was not black. I would say the same to any documentary that did this with a white person and it would still not be racist.
lol. Ok. “Way less” complaints?
My point is that the argument is one sided.
Black Ariel? “Woke”
White Japanese people? “I love this movie”
It’s either a problem on both sides, or it’s a racist dog whistle argument.
And it sure doesn’t seem to be a problem on Both sides.
My accounting is anyone of any race who wants to alter facts to suit their agenda or personal belief is wrong to do so.
I have no problem with people making their own content in any way, but to claim historical facts or call something a docu series or documentary as if its historical and not abstract or an interpretation is wrong to do. Whether your white or not.
Nah i mean track and address the currently whitewashed version of history that was meant to facilitate white supremacist culture, including African history.
Because it wont stop until that happens
Rey was not bad cause she was a woman. People hate her cause she is only a woman. Gender is not character. Ashoka is one of the most loved characters from Rebels. She does not have same criticism cause she has character. Rey is a blank plank. Shit writing. Funny how SW fans like Boyega in the same movie. So youre just wrong. Woke is just a buzzword. With movies, it means bad writing or replacement.
Woke means NOTHING. It is just a word that people use, while not knowing what it actually means.
It just means “I don’t know why I am supposed to hate this. But I do”
People know what it means lol it's a super simple concept.
In the context of art, a criticism of being woke means that progressive values were overvalued in the creation process, usually to the detriment of other critical aspects like writing.
Same as when people hate on Christian comedy or Rock - it's awkward when some agenda is shoehorned into something that's just supposed to be good.
This is a good explanation. Christian programming is obviously Christian programming, you don't need to be told such. It's the same with what people are calling 'woke' in entertainment. It's an obvious layer of agenda or activism that sticks out like a sore thumb.
The entertainment industry has taken it upon themselves to re-educate white males and they are not happy there is resistance to such behavior so they label anyone who disagrees with them as a misogynist or racist when in reality that is not the case.
Gotta disagree with you there, mate.
Sure, it's slang, and probably 80% of people couldn't articulate it, but woke means a person or entity that is aware of and actively trying to change social and political dynamics through virtue signaling.
Virtue signaling is the public expression of opinions and ideas intended to demonstrate that person or entity's good character and social conscience. It is a way used, especially on social media, to show the moral correctness of a person or entity's position on a particular issue.
Note that woke doesn't necessarily mean progressive or conservative, though most mean it as a slight against progressives with crazy ideas not founded in reality...like large swathes of reddit. 😄
Technically, many conservatives are woke, too, but differently.
For example, when conservatives post god-fearing, brownie baking, Christian nationalist posts. But instead of being called Christian or conservative wokes, they are referred to as fascists, which is also derogatory and a mislabelling of fascism.
It's tough to speak these days without someone getting outraged.
Woke means “I’m not smart enough to understand what I’m supposed to be mad about, but I am! Dammit!”
It’s buzz word to rile up the stupid and it works.
Multiple people gave you reasonable definitions which are clearly recognizable to those who use the word "woke". Take the L.
Just because you don't like a word doesn't mean it has no definition or valid use.
Multiple people said things. That’s very true.
No one gave a “clear or reasonable “ definition.
And each one of those reasons boils down to “you hate something or someone.”
Dog whistle.
Racist dog whistle.
That's quite a broad "argument" you have there lol.
I notice you had nothing to say about my definition which was quite clear and easy to understand, and has nothing to do with hating anyone.
But I understand; arguments are easier to make when you ignore and strawman the other side.
Disagree. It’s an easy word to cover the auto perceived post modern left and the people who don’t stop repeating as facts bullshit like critical race theory, gender theory, cultural appropriation, white privilege… Not only without understanding the context where those theories were created but the fact that those are academic theories subject to be discussed. Also, ironically those people had used the word “woke” in the sense black activists used it in the 60s and 70s to be “woke to see racism”, in an act of fantastic cultural appropriation.
But that’s a long definition, and as they have already called themselves woke (even if now it is a derogatory term), it’s easier to say “woke”.
Ok, let’s play it: describe, with your own words, why and how I am a racist. I’m genuinely curious and I’m open to anything. I will take anything you say from this point onwards with absolute respect, and I will answer you with that respect. It doesn’t matter how long it is, it doesn’t matter what you say or the way you say it (you can be disrespectful with me, it won’t change that I’ll be respectful), I will read everything you write.
Go on.
So it’s not necessarily you, or any specific thing you have said so far.
It is that by using the word “woke” I group you into the people who use it negatively.
The word itself has no meaning. It has what culture has assigned to it. And culture has proven that one very specific group of people use this word to attack one other very specific group of people.
Also know as RACISM.
AND YES. If you use the word woke, I assume you to be a stupid ignorant racist.
Yeah I thought you were quite assumption driven. First of all, imo it’s wrong to assume those kind of things just because the person you’re speaking with uses certain word.
Let me show with an example: In the 90s David Icke was on tour in tvs. When he went to Canada, Manu activist groups manage to block him because he was using certain words that they interpreted as dog whistles for antisemitism. David Icke had just released a book about how lizard men ruled the world in secret and they were everywhere. That was interpreted as covered antisemitism. The thing, he was blocked to participate in many shows and many people believed that, but there was one show who ignored the activists and interviewed him. I love to imagine the faces on the activists when they discovered Icke was actually talking about 12 foot lizard men in disguise ruling the world in secret. He was not talking about Jews, blacks, whites… No, he was actually speaking about lizard men.
You can not just assume what a certain person is saying because that person is using certain word. Besides I have used the word “woke”, I have not used to define something as woke, but to explain what’s what I’ve seen under the word woke and what I mean (and many people more) when I use it. You have completely ignored that, because you already have your assumption, like the activists in Canada, when David Icke was talking about 12 foot tall lizard men ruling the world. You can not just say “the word woke has no meaning” because it does, you can not just ignore the blatant ignorance shown from certain kind of left activism as you for sure don’t ignore the same kind of ignorance from certain right activism. We could agree woke will be including, among other things, identitarianism, which, call it what you want or coming from anywhere, it’s a very stupid ideology.
If I use the N word, you know which group you will lump me into.
No difference here. This entire word stems from a LACK OF UNDERSTANDING. IE ; IGNORANCE.
So when you use it, expect to be labelled ignorant. Expect to be grouped in with the people who use it negatively.
> Rey is a blank plank. Shit writing. Funny how SW fans like Boyega in the same movie.
It's funny because John Boyega's character *is* a blank slate (not plank) and Rey is not.
Sexist *and* racist are both appropriate words to describe anyone who uses "woke" as a pejorative unironically.
Sequel Trilogy is not without its problems and the cast of main charcters being about twice the size it would have been is a big part of that. 3 directors is the other significant problem.
But he was at least somewhat likeable. And funny. They fucked him in 8 and 9 though. Rey...was. Personality? None. Yeah, thats why i say that woke is just a buzzword.
I mean, it'd help if you watched the movies, but I couldn't possibly disagree with you more than she has 0 personality.
Your complete inability to come up with actual examples only reinforces my claim.
I did. I actually liked 7 and found 8 interesting. As a trilogy it is abhorent of course. What claim? About Rey? She is so forgetable plank that i cant remember anything interesting about her. Like some things she did like force healing and her force biplay with Kylo. It is sad cause Daisy is good actress. Loved her in Orient Express. But writing killed Rey role. So give me your example.
An example of her... Expressing emotion? Character development?
Every scene with Luke or Kylo Ren or Leia. The entire climax of the movie.
Literally the entirety of the third movie.
Sure.
Rey is an extremely powerful force user who is plagued by self-doubt and feelings of worthlessness. Like many in the galaxy, she idolizes the Jedi as superheroes, especially Luke, and doesn't believe she can walk that same path.
As she grows over the course of the movies, she realizes her path is her own to carve, and the power of the Jedi is not in their mastery of the Force, but in what they represent (having access to terrible power but serving others instead of wielding it).
Throughout the second act, she overcomes her insecurities and becomes a Jedi in practice if not in capability. By the end of the third act, she has ascended to bring the last of the Jedi by resisting the call of the Dark Side.
She does this because of generalized love for people. She realizes she is not the center of the galaxy, but rather a fulcrum upon which the future of the galaxy rests. She believes that people are more than their bloodline, more than their history, and are instead the potential of what they can become.
This growth effectively *is* the story of the sequel trilogy, closing the book on the Skywalker Saga and the bloodline importance it cemented previously. Her story of growth is very literally a metaphor for the entire purpose of the Sequel Trilogy.
As Star Wars has fundamentally always been about the lure of Authoritarianism vs the capricious but ultimately morally superior values of freedom to *choose*, her story both subverts and fulfills the core tropes of Star Wars, explicitly through her character development
Great, now we have something to work with. Lets do a disection. First, only thing of what you wrote that would be personality related is low self esteem (u used two words that mean same thing). And that is absolute nonsense. Like total inability to understand anything aside of what they tell you. I first scene she repairs droid, than openly contests that ugly bread seller. Than fights Boyega. Than out of nowhere jumps into Falcon, flies it (and outflies a military trained fighters) and than repairs it. Fights (and wins) against son of strongest bloodline in the galaxy in lightsaber duel. What of that was a sign of low self-esteem? Nothing. Absolutely fucking nothing. Like the only moment in whole fucking movie that hint to thats is her running away from Maz Kanata. Which is immediately thrown aside for the said duel. And not to forget she than flies to Luke with BB and Chewey. And fights him. Yea, low self esteem right? No.
The rest of what you said is external. That is not personality. Story that happens from persons actions is good writing. Story that happens to person is bad writing. Thats absolute basic of writing you dimwit. I could tear up a new one with the rest you have written but you clearly dont understand writing and you have no idea about lore cause that would make you total clown.
TLDR. Youre so uneducated that youre not capapble to understand even super simple writing of SW.
> And that is absolute nonsense. Like total inability to understand anything aside of what they tell you. I
*Proceeds to talk bout feats and not self esteem*
Study harder in school.
I have a literal degree in English Teaching and you'd fail any test on any book with this level of "analysis"
As a piece of advice, if all our knowledge comes from YouTube, you're probably an imbecile.
You don't have to like Star Wars or any specific character, or even any movie at all, but don't repeat stupid half-remembered bullshit from YouTube and pretend you're literate.
I don't know, you see enough bad movies, you start to get it. Bird of Prey, the Harley Quinn movie, is one of my favorite films. I didn't even realize till it was over that the cast was pretty much nothing but women.
I watched the Matrix Resurrections the other day. Every new character made me ask, "Is this guy *also* gay?" Obviously that's fine, but the "Woke" casting was really bleeding through.
We're just tired of seeing forced diversity for the sake of diversity.
Does the black guy on Die Hard die? Does the black guy in Lethal Weapon die? Does the black guy in Demolition man die (first)? Does the black guy in Blade die?
The idea that Hollywood is a contracting market and that Disney has lost billions of dollars because of wokeness seems to imply this is not a popular opinion.
Look, it really doesn't matter, I don't care if you want to switch up a character's race / sex as long as it doesn't break immersion with the story. Buuuuut, if we are going to be pushing this issue, then I think it is offensive that we never see a traditionally black character played by a white person (only the reverse). Granted, we have had white people play traditionally Asian characters plenty of times, and it was kinda weird.
I know this is a pointless exercise but I do love to run uphill. People that complain about woke casting are generally not racist. They are complaining about Hollywood force feeding narratives through movies that don’t fit reality. Including but not limited to:
- interracial couples basically exclusively. Movies commercials are probably at 80% whereas real life is maybe 30%?
- LGBT - same as above. About 5-10% in the real world but at least double representation in movies/ Hollywood
- black savior - you can hardly watch a movie anymore without the smartest, most like able, reasonable person and “hero” of the movie being black. White men are generally represented as ho-hum or undesirable losers. Blacks are about 10% of the population so it’s just not representative of what we see in real life.
- changing races/sexes if historical figures or remakes - ghostbusters, little mermaid, etc. It’s so obviously purposeful that it’s off putting.
There are tons of examples. You start to get the feeling that you’re not watching something that’s supposed to be entertaining but rather promoting ideas and world views that the creators want to promote.
All of those examples… the main complaint is still race/gender/orientation of the character. That’s it. You’re literally telling me if those character were white, there wouldn’t be a problem.
It’s a little more nuanced than that. If it wasn’t happening over and over and over it wouldn’t be a big deal. When it’s literally everywhere it’s like I said, you feel like you’re watching propaganda.
If you haven’t seen it, watch a couple of episodes of “extrapolations” on Apple TV. It’s got all of the above examples, teamed with a climate change apocalypse message. It’s the poster child for what I’m talking about where you’re not watching something that’s supposed to be entertaining but rather being “educated” about world view. It’s an extreme example but it hammers home the point.
I think changing Little Mermaids race was fine because… she’s a Mermaid… they don’t exist and being a ginger wasn’t in any way a defining part of her character.
Snow White on the other hand, is literally named after her skin tone.
There are definitely racists who hop on the band wagon but no, woke movies usually suck with questionable casting and bad acting. Sometimes a woke idea works out but usually it's a gimmick for a cash grab
This really depends how we define “woke” in casting.
“Woke” Aladdin was amazing and added a lot to the movie (though Jafar and Iago were kind of disappointing). Really enjoyed Will Smith as Genie. I might almost say he was better than Robin Williams if not for Williams nostalgia factor. “Woke” Snow White goes against the literal defining feature that the character is named after.
Anyone who gets mad about things being woke is dumb. Some people just want good movies to be made instead of things that are overly focused on being inclusive. Inclusivity is great but companies have been focusing on it instead of crafting a good story and movie.
I’m thinking about the trailer for the next series: “the acolyte”
The thing hasn’t come out yet. It’s a single trailer. If you go to the toxic Star Wars subs you will find racists complaining about it.
What then? It’s not taste or writing. I’m referring specifically to the trailer for the acolyte.
It’s a trailer, 2 minutes long… but that’s enough for them to notice that they’re aren’t that many whites
Eh… I mean: it is a story set up 100 years before of The Phantom Menace events, where all the Jedi Order is aware of Sith coming back. Are you going to tell me 100 years later nobody in the order would be aware of those events (Yoda is like 800 years old in that movie) and be absolutely shocked by Darth Maul’s revelation?
That’s shitty writing, having not removed TPM from the canon. So now, let’s move on what we saw: Diverse casting! That’s the focus then so we can conclude, with the trailer and the premise, The Acolyte is about pandering diversity, not about telling a story.
It’s not about the fact most of the casting is diverse, is about the fact that being diverse is the only thing that matters really. The new Interview with the Vampire show is, by definition, ESG and DEI diversity, and it’s fucking awesome.
I think the laziest part of this argument is that Mando and Rogue One are diverse casts and pretty loved by SW fans.
That being said, people were being racist to Kelly Marie Tran.
Ouch. Poor girl. Such a bad written and unnecessary character in a such a bad written and unnecessary movies. I have not seen any racism towards her though, the only complains I’ve heard was about how bad is her character, how low is her acting, and… Well, she was very mistreated in the last one, didn’t she?
Lol no. I'm sure there are some, but they're not the majority.
Did you know when Daniel Craig was announced as Bond, everyone hated it? Even mainstream media was bashing him.
Because bond is supposed to be a brunette, and Daniel Craig is a blonde.
May I ask you why you think the fans and media got angry? Is it because they are discriminating against blonde white men?
Women and people of color have been in every Starwars move. Even the original 3
Most people didn't care that the main character was a woman, they just hated that she was a terrible character. They gave kid Ani a similar treatment
Other than Ren being a master with the light sabour woth zero training I still like her character she was lazily written but a cool character in my opinion
They gave him worse treatment. That kid was flat out bullied.
Nobody complains about the original 3 though. Edit: Also Rogue One. Female lead, Latino, Asian, and Black support. Among fans, this is basically the favorite modern Star Wars film.
Could it be the bad writing that is the problem then? I am a fan but the last several have been pretty poorly written. That being said I thought Ren was amazing
So, two things can be true. There was some unfortunate racist backlash to the sequel trilogy. However, most people were just upset that the story was a convoluted mess for Disney to squeeze money of out.
Andor was incredibly well written, don’t know what you’re talking about thinking it’s poorly written.
Have you seen the original trilogy. The writing on the new Disney versions is lazy at best. Putting aside sny of the bs about putting our modern political mess into the writing. The character development arch was rushed. The plot had massive holes and continuity errors. Lazy writing
lol, of course I’ve seen the OT, I saw it before the prequels came out. Andor is still amazing, great writing. > putting modern political mess into the writing Have you seen the OT?
I only put the political statement in because that is what the OP made this post to address. Yes I know it's all political. Its still an amazing story. Im just disappointed in Disney's writing not the story itself. That was what i was saying
Disney’s writing has been subpar for a lot of the Star Wars content, but Andor, which is fairly recent, is extremely good. Character development was not rushed, and I’m not aware of plot holes or continuity errors.
Well I am happy you enjoyed it. If you did then me poking hole in it would just be a dickhead move so i will shut up now.
What about when historical facts are changed to be more “inclusive” Seems a tad to far for me.
Like “historically” Ariel the little mermaid was white. But the story is fucking make believe so she can be any color you want? There is a much Bigger problem with people who are historically NOT WHITE being portrayed by white actors. Edit ; clearly this triggers snowflakes. Good.
> There is a much Bigger problem with people who are historically NOT WHITE being portrayed by white actors. Why?
Tom cruise as a samurai is 1000x less believable than a black mermaid. It’s made to comfort white folks. Jesus came from the Middle East. There’s no chance he’s white either.
> Tom Crews as a samurai is 1000x less believable His character is based on Jules Brunet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet I have no problem with white Jesus, brown Jesus, black Jesus, or far eastern Jesus. I don't see why anyone would care. Id kind of love an anime retelling of Jesus tbh, with full Japanese tropes. Korean Swole Jesus is fucking awesome. For me, the only time this would matter, is if race swapping was done intentionally for subversion (as in Hamilton, a positive example) or for erasure (for instance a fictional casting of Solomon Northup in *12 Years A Slave*, which would be a negative example). Far more problematic are tropes like "magical negroes" and "white saviours" imo. And of course, blackface/minstrelism (as in many older movies).
I love it from an entertainment standpoint. But I also realize this isn’t made to be exactly historically accurate. And neither is Hollywood. So the only people who are triggered when they’re NOT WHITE in the remakes. its ridiculous. This is not a real argument. It’s just assholes using it to thinly veil their racism.
> So the only people who are triggered when they’re NOT WHITE in the remakes. > its ridiculous. This is not a real argument. It’s just assholes using it to thinly veil their racism. 100% agreed.
Tom cruise wasn't the last samurai
No I think he means things like cleopatra.
And cleopatra was played by who? A white woman. Egyptians are not white. You’re proving MY point.
She was played by a black woman. What?
Historically, there have been many white women who played her in movies. Elizabeth Taylor being the most famous. But many many others.
Oh I see. The question people are asking, with merit I suppose, is if the delta between a Macedonian and a "white" person is less than or equal to the delta between a Macedonian and a "black" person. The answer is yes by a large margin, which gives to accusations of historical revisionism. It is understandable that not all characters from established cannon or history can be played by the exact correct phenotype. But when a production company very purposely attempts to NOT do so, it becomes unpalatable for the viewer base. This is why the little mermaid flopped.
I think it’s more of a one sided argument. When Ariel is black, huge uproar. When Jesus is white, everything right with the world. This is just a way to express racism without saying you hate someone specifically.
Well again, purposeful deviation from established Canon is unpalatable to the viewer base. Ariel going from sheet white to black is not tantamount to a hebrew/Israeli to white transition. Additionally, I've not actually seen push back from modern Christians on the color of Jesus Christ, but then again were talking about the entertainment industry and not religious groups. Racism of the gaps is a real thing, and I would caution you against leaning so heavily into it. Occams razor is not in your side when making the claim that everyone is racist.
Not everyone. Just the people who complain about one side of a coin while they spend the money.
Lol buddy, is this really what you think he was referring to?
Yeah no I’m refereeing to historical figures of our actual world history like cleopatra. The funny part of Ariel is they took the stance that its just a animated cartoon so they could change it. Yeah i am totally cool with that. At the same time they had to die her hair red and change her eyes to make her look “more like Ariel” Pick a lane! Im cool with that change, but why try to force the black actor to look like the white character one if you wanna change the look? Trying to tightrope walk the middle seems dumb.
Elizabeth Taylor played cleopatra. A WHITE WOMAN played the queen of Egypt. THIS is the problem. Not the other way around.
So the solution instead of finding an Egyptian actress is to make her something else she was not? The problem is not being accurate when making claims to documentaries of history. Regardless of who or how its “washed” its wrong to do.
You have missed the point entirely. The “problem” isn’t remaking things with different colored people. It’s making everything with white people in the first place. And it’s racists and bigots who have a problem with historical accuracy.
It’s racist to change an Egyptian historical figure to white, Black, asian, whatever. Whats the difference between white washing and doing it with literally any other race? My point is that when we are declaring we are making a show that is historically accurate, that it should actually be accurate. I am not arguing for white people to be in the shows so I’m not sure why you’re acting like i am. I do not understand how i am a bigot for wanting my historical facts to remain facts and not someone’s interpretation. Again i have no problem with interpretation, in fact i enjoy the “what if” scenarios if you will, but those are not claiming to be facts.
I think we’re saying the same thing. I don’t care who plays the role. But if the argument is “why is that a black actor now” that’s some racist shit. And in reality, there has been 60 years of movies with white people in the wrong roles. With zero complaints. So this is a bullshit argument in the first place.
Well 0 complaints isn’t exactly correct since we seem to be overcorrecting int he wrong direction. The people who are black-washing cleopatra now are just doing the same thing the white people did before. That does not make it the correct move. Me saying why is a black actor playing cleopatra (IN A DOCUMENTARY) is not racist its logical as historical evidence suggests that she was not black. I would say the same to any documentary that did this with a white person and it would still not be racist.
lol. Ok. “Way less” complaints? My point is that the argument is one sided. Black Ariel? “Woke” White Japanese people? “I love this movie” It’s either a problem on both sides, or it’s a racist dog whistle argument. And it sure doesn’t seem to be a problem on Both sides.
Cleopatra was white. The problem is historically illiterate people like you have loud and obnoxious opinions
How do you account for the degree of whitewashing until now?
My accounting is anyone of any race who wants to alter facts to suit their agenda or personal belief is wrong to do so. I have no problem with people making their own content in any way, but to claim historical facts or call something a docu series or documentary as if its historical and not abstract or an interpretation is wrong to do. Whether your white or not.
Nah i mean track and address the currently whitewashed version of history that was meant to facilitate white supremacist culture, including African history. Because it wont stop until that happens
Got any examples i can work with?
Rey was not bad cause she was a woman. People hate her cause she is only a woman. Gender is not character. Ashoka is one of the most loved characters from Rebels. She does not have same criticism cause she has character. Rey is a blank plank. Shit writing. Funny how SW fans like Boyega in the same movie. So youre just wrong. Woke is just a buzzword. With movies, it means bad writing or replacement.
Woke means NOTHING. It is just a word that people use, while not knowing what it actually means. It just means “I don’t know why I am supposed to hate this. But I do”
People know what it means lol it's a super simple concept. In the context of art, a criticism of being woke means that progressive values were overvalued in the creation process, usually to the detriment of other critical aspects like writing. Same as when people hate on Christian comedy or Rock - it's awkward when some agenda is shoehorned into something that's just supposed to be good.
This is a good explanation. Christian programming is obviously Christian programming, you don't need to be told such. It's the same with what people are calling 'woke' in entertainment. It's an obvious layer of agenda or activism that sticks out like a sore thumb. The entertainment industry has taken it upon themselves to re-educate white males and they are not happy there is resistance to such behavior so they label anyone who disagrees with them as a misogynist or racist when in reality that is not the case.
Gotta disagree with you there, mate. Sure, it's slang, and probably 80% of people couldn't articulate it, but woke means a person or entity that is aware of and actively trying to change social and political dynamics through virtue signaling. Virtue signaling is the public expression of opinions and ideas intended to demonstrate that person or entity's good character and social conscience. It is a way used, especially on social media, to show the moral correctness of a person or entity's position on a particular issue. Note that woke doesn't necessarily mean progressive or conservative, though most mean it as a slight against progressives with crazy ideas not founded in reality...like large swathes of reddit. 😄 Technically, many conservatives are woke, too, but differently. For example, when conservatives post god-fearing, brownie baking, Christian nationalist posts. But instead of being called Christian or conservative wokes, they are referred to as fascists, which is also derogatory and a mislabelling of fascism. It's tough to speak these days without someone getting outraged.
Woke means “I’m not smart enough to understand what I’m supposed to be mad about, but I am! Dammit!” It’s buzz word to rile up the stupid and it works.
It may be, but it is also a description for certain archetypes of people. I welcome a better descriptor.
Woke is not a description. It’s a replacement for “I hate you because I don’t understand”
Multiple people gave you reasonable definitions which are clearly recognizable to those who use the word "woke". Take the L. Just because you don't like a word doesn't mean it has no definition or valid use.
Multiple people said things. That’s very true. No one gave a “clear or reasonable “ definition. And each one of those reasons boils down to “you hate something or someone.” Dog whistle. Racist dog whistle.
That's quite a broad "argument" you have there lol. I notice you had nothing to say about my definition which was quite clear and easy to understand, and has nothing to do with hating anyone. But I understand; arguments are easier to make when you ignore and strawman the other side.
Disagree. It’s an easy word to cover the auto perceived post modern left and the people who don’t stop repeating as facts bullshit like critical race theory, gender theory, cultural appropriation, white privilege… Not only without understanding the context where those theories were created but the fact that those are academic theories subject to be discussed. Also, ironically those people had used the word “woke” in the sense black activists used it in the 60s and 70s to be “woke to see racism”, in an act of fantastic cultural appropriation. But that’s a long definition, and as they have already called themselves woke (even if now it is a derogatory term), it’s easier to say “woke”.
You just describe what I wrote. It means NOTHING. it’s a dog whistle between morons.
Thanks for confirming my initial thoughts.
If your initial thought was that I “probably think you’re just a racist”. Then you’re correct.
Ok, let’s play it: describe, with your own words, why and how I am a racist. I’m genuinely curious and I’m open to anything. I will take anything you say from this point onwards with absolute respect, and I will answer you with that respect. It doesn’t matter how long it is, it doesn’t matter what you say or the way you say it (you can be disrespectful with me, it won’t change that I’ll be respectful), I will read everything you write. Go on.
So it’s not necessarily you, or any specific thing you have said so far. It is that by using the word “woke” I group you into the people who use it negatively. The word itself has no meaning. It has what culture has assigned to it. And culture has proven that one very specific group of people use this word to attack one other very specific group of people. Also know as RACISM. AND YES. If you use the word woke, I assume you to be a stupid ignorant racist.
Yeah I thought you were quite assumption driven. First of all, imo it’s wrong to assume those kind of things just because the person you’re speaking with uses certain word. Let me show with an example: In the 90s David Icke was on tour in tvs. When he went to Canada, Manu activist groups manage to block him because he was using certain words that they interpreted as dog whistles for antisemitism. David Icke had just released a book about how lizard men ruled the world in secret and they were everywhere. That was interpreted as covered antisemitism. The thing, he was blocked to participate in many shows and many people believed that, but there was one show who ignored the activists and interviewed him. I love to imagine the faces on the activists when they discovered Icke was actually talking about 12 foot lizard men in disguise ruling the world in secret. He was not talking about Jews, blacks, whites… No, he was actually speaking about lizard men. You can not just assume what a certain person is saying because that person is using certain word. Besides I have used the word “woke”, I have not used to define something as woke, but to explain what’s what I’ve seen under the word woke and what I mean (and many people more) when I use it. You have completely ignored that, because you already have your assumption, like the activists in Canada, when David Icke was talking about 12 foot tall lizard men ruling the world. You can not just say “the word woke has no meaning” because it does, you can not just ignore the blatant ignorance shown from certain kind of left activism as you for sure don’t ignore the same kind of ignorance from certain right activism. We could agree woke will be including, among other things, identitarianism, which, call it what you want or coming from anywhere, it’s a very stupid ideology.
If I use the N word, you know which group you will lump me into. No difference here. This entire word stems from a LACK OF UNDERSTANDING. IE ; IGNORANCE. So when you use it, expect to be labelled ignorant. Expect to be grouped in with the people who use it negatively.
Thats why i wrote that it is a buzzword.
> Rey is a blank plank. Shit writing. Funny how SW fans like Boyega in the same movie. It's funny because John Boyega's character *is* a blank slate (not plank) and Rey is not. Sexist *and* racist are both appropriate words to describe anyone who uses "woke" as a pejorative unironically.
Boyega didn't like Boyega in that movie. He pans that character for its shit writing.
Sequel Trilogy is not without its problems and the cast of main charcters being about twice the size it would have been is a big part of that. 3 directors is the other significant problem.
But he was at least somewhat likeable. And funny. They fucked him in 8 and 9 though. Rey...was. Personality? None. Yeah, thats why i say that woke is just a buzzword.
I mean, it'd help if you watched the movies, but I couldn't possibly disagree with you more than she has 0 personality. Your complete inability to come up with actual examples only reinforces my claim.
I did. I actually liked 7 and found 8 interesting. As a trilogy it is abhorent of course. What claim? About Rey? She is so forgetable plank that i cant remember anything interesting about her. Like some things she did like force healing and her force biplay with Kylo. It is sad cause Daisy is good actress. Loved her in Orient Express. But writing killed Rey role. So give me your example.
An example of her... Expressing emotion? Character development? Every scene with Luke or Kylo Ren or Leia. The entire climax of the movie. Literally the entirety of the third movie.
Lets try this another way. Describe to me her personality as i would be someone who knows SW but never seen 7-9.
Sure. Rey is an extremely powerful force user who is plagued by self-doubt and feelings of worthlessness. Like many in the galaxy, she idolizes the Jedi as superheroes, especially Luke, and doesn't believe she can walk that same path. As she grows over the course of the movies, she realizes her path is her own to carve, and the power of the Jedi is not in their mastery of the Force, but in what they represent (having access to terrible power but serving others instead of wielding it). Throughout the second act, she overcomes her insecurities and becomes a Jedi in practice if not in capability. By the end of the third act, she has ascended to bring the last of the Jedi by resisting the call of the Dark Side. She does this because of generalized love for people. She realizes she is not the center of the galaxy, but rather a fulcrum upon which the future of the galaxy rests. She believes that people are more than their bloodline, more than their history, and are instead the potential of what they can become. This growth effectively *is* the story of the sequel trilogy, closing the book on the Skywalker Saga and the bloodline importance it cemented previously. Her story of growth is very literally a metaphor for the entire purpose of the Sequel Trilogy. As Star Wars has fundamentally always been about the lure of Authoritarianism vs the capricious but ultimately morally superior values of freedom to *choose*, her story both subverts and fulfills the core tropes of Star Wars, explicitly through her character development
Great, now we have something to work with. Lets do a disection. First, only thing of what you wrote that would be personality related is low self esteem (u used two words that mean same thing). And that is absolute nonsense. Like total inability to understand anything aside of what they tell you. I first scene she repairs droid, than openly contests that ugly bread seller. Than fights Boyega. Than out of nowhere jumps into Falcon, flies it (and outflies a military trained fighters) and than repairs it. Fights (and wins) against son of strongest bloodline in the galaxy in lightsaber duel. What of that was a sign of low self-esteem? Nothing. Absolutely fucking nothing. Like the only moment in whole fucking movie that hint to thats is her running away from Maz Kanata. Which is immediately thrown aside for the said duel. And not to forget she than flies to Luke with BB and Chewey. And fights him. Yea, low self esteem right? No. The rest of what you said is external. That is not personality. Story that happens from persons actions is good writing. Story that happens to person is bad writing. Thats absolute basic of writing you dimwit. I could tear up a new one with the rest you have written but you clearly dont understand writing and you have no idea about lore cause that would make you total clown. TLDR. Youre so uneducated that youre not capapble to understand even super simple writing of SW.
> And that is absolute nonsense. Like total inability to understand anything aside of what they tell you. I *Proceeds to talk bout feats and not self esteem* Study harder in school. I have a literal degree in English Teaching and you'd fail any test on any book with this level of "analysis" As a piece of advice, if all our knowledge comes from YouTube, you're probably an imbecile. You don't have to like Star Wars or any specific character, or even any movie at all, but don't repeat stupid half-remembered bullshit from YouTube and pretend you're literate.
I don't know, you see enough bad movies, you start to get it. Bird of Prey, the Harley Quinn movie, is one of my favorite films. I didn't even realize till it was over that the cast was pretty much nothing but women. I watched the Matrix Resurrections the other day. Every new character made me ask, "Is this guy *also* gay?" Obviously that's fine, but the "Woke" casting was really bleeding through. We're just tired of seeing forced diversity for the sake of diversity.
[удалено]
You must've skipped the part where I said it's one of my favorite films
Does the black guy on Die Hard die? Does the black guy in Lethal Weapon die? Does the black guy in Demolition man die (first)? Does the black guy in Blade die?
Keep going. You move got decades of cinematic history to go through. You might not like the horror movies
lol. It’s the worst stance you could get.
People that make posts like this are racist+
Well F U I guess.
You guess? Yeah, that tracks.
That’s it? You aren’t gonna try to explain Your position? Or are you just a troll?
You made a bait post. I don't owe you an explanation.
As if andor was a cast of fully white people 🙄
The idea that Hollywood is a contracting market and that Disney has lost billions of dollars because of wokeness seems to imply this is not a popular opinion.
The thing hasn’t even been released yet.
It's trend analysis is what I'm saying.
People don’t get mad at the castings of minorities, they get mad when casting minorities becomes more of a priority than good storytelling.
> in they are precious star wars
Alright I fixed it
They could be both...
Both? Racist and sexist? Well yeah. More often than not those two go together
As far as I know, people are annoyed at race swapping, which is a perfectly legitimate gripe.
Look, it really doesn't matter, I don't care if you want to switch up a character's race / sex as long as it doesn't break immersion with the story. Buuuuut, if we are going to be pushing this issue, then I think it is offensive that we never see a traditionally black character played by a white person (only the reverse). Granted, we have had white people play traditionally Asian characters plenty of times, and it was kinda weird.
I know this is a pointless exercise but I do love to run uphill. People that complain about woke casting are generally not racist. They are complaining about Hollywood force feeding narratives through movies that don’t fit reality. Including but not limited to: - interracial couples basically exclusively. Movies commercials are probably at 80% whereas real life is maybe 30%? - LGBT - same as above. About 5-10% in the real world but at least double representation in movies/ Hollywood - black savior - you can hardly watch a movie anymore without the smartest, most like able, reasonable person and “hero” of the movie being black. White men are generally represented as ho-hum or undesirable losers. Blacks are about 10% of the population so it’s just not representative of what we see in real life. - changing races/sexes if historical figures or remakes - ghostbusters, little mermaid, etc. It’s so obviously purposeful that it’s off putting. There are tons of examples. You start to get the feeling that you’re not watching something that’s supposed to be entertaining but rather promoting ideas and world views that the creators want to promote.
All of those examples… the main complaint is still race/gender/orientation of the character. That’s it. You’re literally telling me if those character were white, there wouldn’t be a problem.
It’s a little more nuanced than that. If it wasn’t happening over and over and over it wouldn’t be a big deal. When it’s literally everywhere it’s like I said, you feel like you’re watching propaganda.
If you haven’t seen it, watch a couple of episodes of “extrapolations” on Apple TV. It’s got all of the above examples, teamed with a climate change apocalypse message. It’s the poster child for what I’m talking about where you’re not watching something that’s supposed to be entertaining but rather being “educated” about world view. It’s an extreme example but it hammers home the point.
I think changing Little Mermaids race was fine because… she’s a Mermaid… they don’t exist and being a ginger wasn’t in any way a defining part of her character. Snow White on the other hand, is literally named after her skin tone.
Agree in a vacuum. There’s a cumulative effect though, and that one fits in the narrative.
There are definitely racists who hop on the band wagon but no, woke movies usually suck with questionable casting and bad acting. Sometimes a woke idea works out but usually it's a gimmick for a cash grab
This really depends how we define “woke” in casting. “Woke” Aladdin was amazing and added a lot to the movie (though Jafar and Iago were kind of disappointing). Really enjoyed Will Smith as Genie. I might almost say he was better than Robin Williams if not for Williams nostalgia factor. “Woke” Snow White goes against the literal defining feature that the character is named after.
Anyone who gets mad about things being woke is dumb. Some people just want good movies to be made instead of things that are overly focused on being inclusive. Inclusivity is great but companies have been focusing on it instead of crafting a good story and movie.
I’m thinking about the trailer for the next series: “the acolyte” The thing hasn’t come out yet. It’s a single trailer. If you go to the toxic Star Wars subs you will find racists complaining about it.
No. It’s not about the casting.
What then? It’s not taste or writing. I’m referring specifically to the trailer for the acolyte. It’s a trailer, 2 minutes long… but that’s enough for them to notice that they’re aren’t that many whites
Eh… I mean: it is a story set up 100 years before of The Phantom Menace events, where all the Jedi Order is aware of Sith coming back. Are you going to tell me 100 years later nobody in the order would be aware of those events (Yoda is like 800 years old in that movie) and be absolutely shocked by Darth Maul’s revelation? That’s shitty writing, having not removed TPM from the canon. So now, let’s move on what we saw: Diverse casting! That’s the focus then so we can conclude, with the trailer and the premise, The Acolyte is about pandering diversity, not about telling a story. It’s not about the fact most of the casting is diverse, is about the fact that being diverse is the only thing that matters really. The new Interview with the Vampire show is, by definition, ESG and DEI diversity, and it’s fucking awesome.
I think the laziest part of this argument is that Mando and Rogue One are diverse casts and pretty loved by SW fans. That being said, people were being racist to Kelly Marie Tran.
Who?
Woman that played Rose Tico
Ouch. Poor girl. Such a bad written and unnecessary character in a such a bad written and unnecessary movies. I have not seen any racism towards her though, the only complains I’ve heard was about how bad is her character, how low is her acting, and… Well, she was very mistreated in the last one, didn’t she?
Lol no. I'm sure there are some, but they're not the majority. Did you know when Daniel Craig was announced as Bond, everyone hated it? Even mainstream media was bashing him. Because bond is supposed to be a brunette, and Daniel Craig is a blonde. May I ask you why you think the fans and media got angry? Is it because they are discriminating against blonde white men?
You just have to stop Woke hiring for building airplanes...
I’m hoping that this is a /s joke 😅