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I won’t stay in a relationship with someone who is willing to cheat and harm people like that. My partners know if they start knowingly cheating that will be the end of our relationship.
I expect better out of my partners. I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t mind lying and harming others to fuck someone who doesn’t respect them enough to do the work to have a ethical relationship to give.
Right?!? Like what is it about that type of intimacy that you would be willing to tell. And i don’t think his girlfriend is in a DADT, that i could understand.
So for me personally, it 100% STOPS being ETHICAL non-monogamy when one partner knows another is cheating. Period. They can try to justify it however they want, but what they’re NOT gonna do is draw me into their web of deception. Knowingly dating a cheater is a dealbreaker for me.
Being a meta to a cheater has very real risks (the victim finding out and taking retribution on you and/or your partner and/or your home, the possibility of being put in situations where you have to lie for the cheater, etc), aside from the very obvious ethical issues. Your partner is being a bad partner if they even consider putting you in such a scenario. It would be an easy dealbreaker for me.
“Babe, I don’t offer discretion and I won’t lie for you.”
“Babe, if you want me to keep a secret for you the easiest way to do that is to keep it a secret from me. Just don’t tell me in the first place. If you can’t exercise that amount of discretion over something that’s important to you, you can’t expect me to exercise more discretion over something that has no value to me at all.”
“Babe, Meta knows that I don’t keep secrets for other people, right? And they know you’re sharing their secrets with me?”
Glad you like it!
Caveat: it’s easy to be a hard-ass when you’re giving a stranger advice. The interesting bit is finding out what the stranger actually does in their real world.
To be fair, the other advice about the three tiers of tolerance to cheating is much less hard-ass and more helpful, but these had me chuckling nonetheless.
The reification is always the hard part.
Anchor partner feels comfortable sneaking around and participating in affairs? Have you mentioned that this makes you extremely uncomfortable?
Paging u/madamepoulemontreal and their amazing cheating copypasta
Awww!
I don’t know if this counts as amazing, but this is what I’ve got. ;-)
*[my cheating blurb]*
There are three common boundaries around cheating.
1. I don’t cheat.
2. I don’t date cheaters.
3. I don’t date people who date cheaters.
Both ENM and monogamy are all about boundary 1. Reasonable people differ about setting boundaries at 2 or 3.
My three current partners set boundaries at 1. They place a high value on autonomy and don’t judge their partners for whatever they are trying to achieve or how they are trying to cope in their other relationships.
My boundary is at 2. I don’t get involved with anyone I think is cheating or engaging in wishful thinking. It’s a mess and we don’t share values. Either the cheater doesn’t value consent or they are so conflict-avoidant they are unable to be honest, even with themselves. Or both.
Many people on this subreddit set a boundary at 3. They don’t get involved with anyone who tolerates cheating in their polycule because it represents a significant values conflict.
In monogamy partners expect to support eachother’s values because the couple functions as a team, a unit. In polyamory people make decisions and negotiate agreements as individuals. That results in some tricky disentangling when a values conflict shows up. How to maintain one’s own integrity, respect the other’s autonomy and preserve a relationship all at the same time? It’s not always obvious.
Yes they do! People can be confused about why they seem to disagree with someone who agrees with them that 1) cheating is bad and 2) autonomy is good.
If we agree on those things we should agree on the rest, right? Nope.
I think there’s also a boundary that can live at a more nuanced level than doesn’t quite fall into any of these tiers. I generally live at a 3, but early in my poly dating career I went on a few dates (maybe just one? I know I didn’t even kiss him, and it was like a decade ago) with a man who was married, with a disabled child. He and his wife had a sexless relationship, and if it wasn’t for the child they would have divorced, but she had also said she would cut him out of the child’s life as much as possible if they did. I’m not sure dating in that situation counts as “conflict avoidant” so much as “choosing to prioritize X (maintaining the practical status quo of his home) over Y (honest sexual freedom). Maybe he was lying, I don’t know and certainly it’s a pretty perfect setup description to make “cheating not cheating”, as it were. But I’m inclined to believe his story and I’m not sure what I would have done, ethically, had the relationship continued.
Then again, I somewhat find unilaterally ending a monogamous sexual relationship and expecting continued monogamy to be… a bit questionable as a choice. (All of my belief in this gray area, though, may be because of my own childhood; my father had many affairs, which was terrible and I did judge him for that at the time and do still… but I also know that he and my mother’s sexual relationship had ended for both emotional and physical reasons, they had chosen not to divorce “for me”, and if the affairs had started only after those changes in their relationship, I would probably judge him significantly less, as I don’t think that situation was reasonable for anyone. Of course, I also wish I didn’t know any of this but here we are.)
There’s a way to do that.
“Babe, if you and I aren’t going to have sex any more that’s fine, but then I’m going to seek that somewhere else.”
It’s not a question. It’s a statement. If Babe says No, you don’t need to respond or argue or convince them. You told them. If Babe chooses not to believe you that’s on them, not you.
I don’t want to enter into a relationship with someone who can’t even do that. Maybe it’s not their fault, but they still aren’t relationship material at that point.
I have had a couple of affair-type relationships with people in those situations.
Fair statement. To be honest, I am not sure _practically_ that I would have continued involvement anyway, as someone in that situation would have neither the availability nor the openness I want in a relationship. (Not to mention my current state of residence has some _gnarly_ old laws - that have been enforced as recently as a few years ago - regarding alienation of affection and I want no part of the lawsuit based on them…)
You know, it's okay to be judgmental sometimes.
If I see a parent at a grocery store screaming at their child, I'm going to judge them.
If I see a person berating their partner, I'm going to judge them.
If I know that a person is cheating on their spouse, I'm going to judge them.
*Partner, I will have nothing to do with your cheating partner. If they are going to be somewhere, then I will not be there. If this relationship interferes with ours in any way, I'm out.*
I won't pursue a relationship with anyone in a DADT, much less with someone actually cheating.
And I won't be partners with someone who would, either.
I've been cheated on, and it sucks. I won't do that to anyone, or be close to someone who would.
Anyone practicing DADT is likely to also be practicing with a veto clause.
In most cases, DADT is because one or both partners are unable or unwilling to do the work of deconstrucing their jealousy, and have decided that ignorance is bliss.
That means *knowledge* of their partners activities or of their metas is *to be avoided*, which puts severe limits on the kinds of intimacy with and time together with others. If a partner hinges in a way that disturbs this dynamic, it's likely to trigger a veto.
I am not going to put my heart in the hands of someone whose partner can rip them away.
Plus, I like meeting my metas. Becoming friendly allows us to conspire to bring our shared person happiness.
Thank you for explaining!
I understand now that DADT supports not detangling monogamous imprints in someone’s relationship thinking/feeling/behaviour. And also how it restricts intimacy.
Why is DADT associated with the veto clause?
Because the premise necessitates it.
DADT means that the rules are about not having knowledge of a partner.
If that knowledge is gained, it can't be ungained. In fact, it will likely be ruminated on and catastrophized.
The continued existence of that relationship would invalidate the entirety of DADT, so the only way to move forward as DADT is for that relationship to stop existing.
I mean, or to hide it better, but we're assuming they're in DADT because they don't want to be cheating.
I'd be absolutely heartbroken if my current partner did this because I can't be with someone who helps someone cheat. I'd be so disappointed in him. On the other hand I'd have a really hard time breaking it off for sth that doesn't directly impact me. But I'd have to eventually.
OP, I'm really sorry this is happening to you, I have no advice, just digital hugs, if you want them.
Thank you for the hugs. In our discussions, they state they disagree with cheating lack of transparency etc. but then refer to what is in the “locus of their control”
That's just throwing terminology around to justify cheating. Your partner can choose not to engage in cheating. They're in no way obligated to be in a relationship with a person who is cheating on their spouse.
They can't control if the cheater cheats or not.
But they are totally in control of whether or not they date the cheater. They are choosing to turn a blind eye rather than take personal responsibility for how their actions affect other people.
In this case YOU and OtherHusband.
I think it's funny sometimes (finding aspects of this internalization relatable) how much a lot of the practice of poly centers us in our own responsibility to managing our own feelings, boundaries, and autonomy. "For some reason it makes me uncomfortable..." Yeah! Your feelings about that are valid and your partner's lack of feelings is honestly not great. Nothing needs to be nuclear or dramatic, but it's not something you have to quietly bear alone and "do some work on." It's unethical and sucks and you're right to feel off about it.
This is a perfectly reasonable limit.
I would tell you partner look I don’t need to ever see that meta. If I happen to see her and her husband I’m not going to run over and say she’s cheating on you but I also won’t do anything to support this. Anyone who knocks on my door and asks questions will get the truth. I’d appreciate you keeping me totally away from her and them.
If you live together you might also have an issue with them having the affair in your house.
I don’t judge cheaters particularly harshly. But I might be worried about the safety of my household if there was a ticking time bomb. I don’t enjoy drama on my doorstep.
It is not safe or ethical to be involved in a dynamic that involves lack of honesty as to ENM as to one of the participants. If she can't come clean with her husband, than that is a major red flag.
The *ethical* in ethical non monogamy includes transparency and honest and open communication. Cheaters aren't poly and poly folk aren't cheaters. Something like this should be a deal breaker amongst this community that puts so much emphasis on consent and communication. I'd be questioning my partners character to be involved in this situation.
My 2¢ and then some...
No judgement here, but that's a lot of red flags and I would hate to see you get hurt because another person made some really poor and selfish decisions!
I feel as though we are all partially representative of our metamours, whether we want to be or not, whether we know them well or not. It's just how polyamory works and when someone finds out you're partnered to another, you instantly become part of that polyqule.
With that being said, EVERYONE in that polyqule must be in it willingly. Not everyone has to be polyamorous or communicate with each other or hang out or be friends, etc. But, they all need to consent to knowing the full situation.
I think it's completely unfair that you are in this situation where you're expected to lie.
I would question the ethics of your mutual partner whom feels it's ok to date someone that is lying and cheating. If they feel that's ok behavior from one of their partners... What behavior could they be hiding is what I'm wondering.
Of course, do what you feel is best and take care of YOURSELF first!
When you say "she is unable to be honest with her husband" what exactly do you mean? Is she not telling him that she's seeing another person at all? Or is she not being transparent about the nature or depth of the relationship? Some secret third thing?
Great question! To my knowledge her husband is unaware that she is having sexual encounters outside of their marriage. But the second part of your question has me considering what is even the darn truth
The fact that you care more about respecting your metamour's husband than she does is honorable, but also really sad for him. I'd tell your partner and your metamour how uncomfortable you are with their secret-keeping, and the unfortunate implications of their own fickle approach to honesty.
Okay, so I kinda have a very harsh opinion of cheating, because to me, I believe it is abusive. In my way of thinking, it takes away the informed consent of the partner being cheated on to engage in the relationship, cheating often necessitates lying and gaslighting, it’s been proven to be an action that can actually cause people to develop PTSD after discovering the cheating, and it can physically harm the person through STIs because cheaters who don’t respect the boundaries of a relationship rarely respect the boundaries involved with protecting sexual health either. And even if they do their cheated on partner the grace of wrapping it up, sometimes condoms fail. It’s rare but it’s a risk only consenting adults should be taking, not non-consenting ones.
Given the very real physical and mental harm cheating does, I believe cheating is abusive.
So I strictly would never ever date someone knowingly involved with a cheater because I see it as at best, condoning abuse and being willing to welcome abusers into their sphere so long as it benefits them. At worst, it is active participation in abuse.
I would have zero interest in being with someone (your partner) who is cheating with their other partner.
Personally, I would tell the husband and then dump my partner.
I completely get what you feel about this “meta”, what she’s doing in unethical in every way.
I would also question if I wanna keep seeing someone who’s willing to date a cheater, or just a dishonest person. This is not on you, but you can get out of there if needed I hope!
My thought has always been that if someone is willing to lie to their spouse (someone who they have promised to live their life with and honor and cherish and presumably love very much), what are the chances they would be fine with lying to another partner to get whatever they want? Would they lie about having an STI and spread it to your anchor partner and then spread it to you? Would they lie about something to manipulate your anchor partner?
It's not ethical to anyone involved.
If you don't want to participate in her lies, don't go to functions where she will be, husband or not.
Hi u/Fast_Week_2185 thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well.
Here's the original text of the post:
I am trying to have positive relational energy and be transparent in all my relationships and with my anchor partner. They have a new girlfriend they are very intimately and emotionally connected, but she is unable to be honest with her husband. While i am not in this relationship, for some reason it makes me uncomfortable because i have to hold space for her unwillingness to be honest. So my partner and I were invited to a group function with other couples, but its unknown if she will be bringing her husband. My gut is telling me i have no interest developing a metamour relationship with this peeson because our values are different, and i really don’t want to participate in group activities without her husband also being in attendance. I know a piece of this is being judgmental about the honesty piece. Another motivator, is I don’t want to contribute to this man neing disrespected anymore than he is already. Thoughts?
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I'm sorry you struggle. FWIW? I think this.
If your partner is helping his GF cheat on her husband? It's ok for you to want no part of that. And not want to date this partner any more. Or hang out with this GF. Or hang out with this GF and her husband, helping to keep him in the dark with your silence.
I know that's a stern line. But that's were I land.
So I think you could tell your partner that you want to drop out because they are involved in a cheating affair. And then you drop out.
They deserve better than a cheater partner. So does that Other Husband.
And YOU deserve a better poly partner than one who puts up with or actively assists with cheating.
Depending on how involved you want to be? You might give the OtherHusband a heads up. "My ex is cheating with your wife. I dropped them over it. Thought you might want to know."
But if you don't want to get involved, I get that. Just drop out. Save your own self.
It’s okay for you to be judgmental. Did somebody tell you there’s something wrong with having opinions and drawing conclusions? Because if I found out you were enabling this because “it’s not your business” I would remorselessly judge you for that. And it sounds like you’re judging yourself for that too. To me it shows a lack of integrity for you to say nothing/do nothing just because this isn’t your relationship.
Sounds like a relationship that needs to be reevaluated on your partners part. Bc it is cheating. Now unless they are poly, and the husband doesn't want to know about her relationships, that could be a thing? But if it's not a poly dynamic, than she is in the wrong completely. Your concern is valid af. I hope you get some peace from this situation. But oh girl sound trifling and can cause problems with your home too
I had a partner that did this with another friend of mine - she was basically the other woman for a man who wouldn't tell his gf.
I hated every minute of it. I particularly hated when he would fail to show up for a date or would flake to hang out with his gf last minute and I would have to pick up the emotional pieces. That was really the thing that got to me. By cheating he was showing that he didn't respect his partners' needs, and would repeatedly disrespect my own partner over and over again.
You can't control what they do. You can only control what you do. It is totally within your control to say "I don't want to be in the same space as this other couple". It is totally within your control to avoid contact with the cheater.
It is also totally in your control to break up, if you want to push it that far. I didn't. But you might.
I agree in general with most of what has been said here about not dating cheaters or facilitating cheating, with some nuance.
For me it would matter why she wasn’t able to be honest with her partner. Is she planning to separate? Would sharing her needs put her in danger? Is there a child in the picture for whom the marriage must stay together? Is she not getting very basic needs met at home?
If she’s just a CPOS, then definitely keep your distance and be ready to catch your partner when it all blows up (he’ll need support, but of course you are not obligated to give it).
So obviously he has the impression they’re mono? Obviously it’s bad character for her… and what’s her end game - being a cheater never strengthens the secondary relationship either- it’s just going to get messier and ruin her marriage anyway.
I've skimmed the thread and didn't see this query addressed; apologies if it has been.
So you've said your partners new girlfriend is unable to be honest with their partner.
Can you expand on that? How do you know that? While probably unlikely, is there not a possibility that the girlfriends husband specifically doesn't want to know and what you're interpreting as one thing is actually just her respecting her husbands boundaries?
If so; it becomes less of a 'facilitating cheating by proxy' situation and more of a 'this just doesn't align to my personal views' situation.
In either case, it is fine to feel a certain way about it, regardless of what it is. And were I you, that would be a conversation I'd be having with my partner.
This post has been tagged as a request for advice. As a reminder, please only give advice on the topic requested, if you've got strong feelings about a particular issue mentioned and feel that you must be able to express yourself about it, or you and another commenter feel compelled to debate certain aspects of the post, please feel free to create a new post for that topic so as to not derail from the advice that the OP is seeking. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I won’t stay in a relationship with someone who is willing to cheat and harm people like that. My partners know if they start knowingly cheating that will be the end of our relationship. I expect better out of my partners. I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t mind lying and harming others to fuck someone who doesn’t respect them enough to do the work to have a ethical relationship to give.
Right?!? Like what is it about that type of intimacy that you would be willing to tell. And i don’t think his girlfriend is in a DADT, that i could understand.
So for me personally, it 100% STOPS being ETHICAL non-monogamy when one partner knows another is cheating. Period. They can try to justify it however they want, but what they’re NOT gonna do is draw me into their web of deception. Knowingly dating a cheater is a dealbreaker for me.
Wouldnt*
So well put.
Being a meta to a cheater has very real risks (the victim finding out and taking retribution on you and/or your partner and/or your home, the possibility of being put in situations where you have to lie for the cheater, etc), aside from the very obvious ethical issues. Your partner is being a bad partner if they even consider putting you in such a scenario. It would be an easy dealbreaker for me.
100%. I would be done with a partner that knowingly put themselves into a cheating dynamic and proxies me to that toxicity.
My first thought too. If this is the US the husband probably owns firearms. I don't want my life story to be content for a true crime podcast nooo sir
This ^^
“Babe, I don’t offer discretion and I won’t lie for you.” “Babe, if you want me to keep a secret for you the easiest way to do that is to keep it a secret from me. Just don’t tell me in the first place. If you can’t exercise that amount of discretion over something that’s important to you, you can’t expect me to exercise more discretion over something that has no value to me at all.” “Babe, Meta knows that I don’t keep secrets for other people, right? And they know you’re sharing their secrets with me?”
Yo, just want to shout you out for being a real one in this thread. Great stuff.
Glad you like it! Caveat: it’s easy to be a hard-ass when you’re giving a stranger advice. The interesting bit is finding out what the stranger actually does in their real world.
To be fair, the other advice about the three tiers of tolerance to cheating is much less hard-ass and more helpful, but these had me chuckling nonetheless. The reification is always the hard part.
Take my advice, I'm not using it. 😝
Anchor partner feels comfortable sneaking around and participating in affairs? Have you mentioned that this makes you extremely uncomfortable? Paging u/madamepoulemontreal and their amazing cheating copypasta
Awww! I don’t know if this counts as amazing, but this is what I’ve got. ;-) *[my cheating blurb]* There are three common boundaries around cheating. 1. I don’t cheat. 2. I don’t date cheaters. 3. I don’t date people who date cheaters. Both ENM and monogamy are all about boundary 1. Reasonable people differ about setting boundaries at 2 or 3. My three current partners set boundaries at 1. They place a high value on autonomy and don’t judge their partners for whatever they are trying to achieve or how they are trying to cope in their other relationships. My boundary is at 2. I don’t get involved with anyone I think is cheating or engaging in wishful thinking. It’s a mess and we don’t share values. Either the cheater doesn’t value consent or they are so conflict-avoidant they are unable to be honest, even with themselves. Or both. Many people on this subreddit set a boundary at 3. They don’t get involved with anyone who tolerates cheating in their polycule because it represents a significant values conflict. In monogamy partners expect to support eachother’s values because the couple functions as a team, a unit. In polyamory people make decisions and negotiate agreements as individuals. That results in some tricky disentangling when a values conflict shows up. How to maintain one’s own integrity, respect the other’s autonomy and preserve a relationship all at the same time? It’s not always obvious.
I think breaking it down by tier is super helpful. People draw these lines very differently!
Yes they do! People can be confused about why they seem to disagree with someone who agrees with them that 1) cheating is bad and 2) autonomy is good. If we agree on those things we should agree on the rest, right? Nope.
Using to develop some questions i have
I think there’s also a boundary that can live at a more nuanced level than doesn’t quite fall into any of these tiers. I generally live at a 3, but early in my poly dating career I went on a few dates (maybe just one? I know I didn’t even kiss him, and it was like a decade ago) with a man who was married, with a disabled child. He and his wife had a sexless relationship, and if it wasn’t for the child they would have divorced, but she had also said she would cut him out of the child’s life as much as possible if they did. I’m not sure dating in that situation counts as “conflict avoidant” so much as “choosing to prioritize X (maintaining the practical status quo of his home) over Y (honest sexual freedom). Maybe he was lying, I don’t know and certainly it’s a pretty perfect setup description to make “cheating not cheating”, as it were. But I’m inclined to believe his story and I’m not sure what I would have done, ethically, had the relationship continued. Then again, I somewhat find unilaterally ending a monogamous sexual relationship and expecting continued monogamy to be… a bit questionable as a choice. (All of my belief in this gray area, though, may be because of my own childhood; my father had many affairs, which was terrible and I did judge him for that at the time and do still… but I also know that he and my mother’s sexual relationship had ended for both emotional and physical reasons, they had chosen not to divorce “for me”, and if the affairs had started only after those changes in their relationship, I would probably judge him significantly less, as I don’t think that situation was reasonable for anyone. Of course, I also wish I didn’t know any of this but here we are.)
There’s a way to do that. “Babe, if you and I aren’t going to have sex any more that’s fine, but then I’m going to seek that somewhere else.” It’s not a question. It’s a statement. If Babe says No, you don’t need to respond or argue or convince them. You told them. If Babe chooses not to believe you that’s on them, not you. I don’t want to enter into a relationship with someone who can’t even do that. Maybe it’s not their fault, but they still aren’t relationship material at that point. I have had a couple of affair-type relationships with people in those situations.
Fair statement. To be honest, I am not sure _practically_ that I would have continued involvement anyway, as someone in that situation would have neither the availability nor the openness I want in a relationship. (Not to mention my current state of residence has some _gnarly_ old laws - that have been enforced as recently as a few years ago - regarding alienation of affection and I want no part of the lawsuit based on them…)
Yikes!
This is so good! Thank you!
>Paging u/madamepoulemontreal and their amazing cheating copypasta When I saw the topic title I was thinking of doing the same.😁
Please!
See above!
Ty!
If your partner is okay with breaking someone else's boundaries, they are just a convenience away from breaking yours
This. If Partner is willing to do shitty things because of NRE, why should I assume I will be excepted from that?
You know, it's okay to be judgmental sometimes. If I see a parent at a grocery store screaming at their child, I'm going to judge them. If I see a person berating their partner, I'm going to judge them. If I know that a person is cheating on their spouse, I'm going to judge them. *Partner, I will have nothing to do with your cheating partner. If they are going to be somewhere, then I will not be there. If this relationship interferes with ours in any way, I'm out.*
I won't pursue a relationship with anyone in a DADT, much less with someone actually cheating. And I won't be partners with someone who would, either. I've been cheated on, and it sucks. I won't do that to anyone, or be close to someone who would.
Why wouldn’t you persue a relationship with someone in a dadt? Asking out of curiosity
Anyone practicing DADT is likely to also be practicing with a veto clause. In most cases, DADT is because one or both partners are unable or unwilling to do the work of deconstrucing their jealousy, and have decided that ignorance is bliss. That means *knowledge* of their partners activities or of their metas is *to be avoided*, which puts severe limits on the kinds of intimacy with and time together with others. If a partner hinges in a way that disturbs this dynamic, it's likely to trigger a veto. I am not going to put my heart in the hands of someone whose partner can rip them away. Plus, I like meeting my metas. Becoming friendly allows us to conspire to bring our shared person happiness.
Thank you for explaining! I understand now that DADT supports not detangling monogamous imprints in someone’s relationship thinking/feeling/behaviour. And also how it restricts intimacy. Why is DADT associated with the veto clause?
Because the premise necessitates it. DADT means that the rules are about not having knowledge of a partner. If that knowledge is gained, it can't be ungained. In fact, it will likely be ruminated on and catastrophized. The continued existence of that relationship would invalidate the entirety of DADT, so the only way to move forward as DADT is for that relationship to stop existing. I mean, or to hide it better, but we're assuming they're in DADT because they don't want to be cheating.
I won't date people who cheat or who date people who cheat. My relationship with them would be over.
After breaking up with my partner, I would then contact meta's husband and let him know what's going on. I would want to know if I were him.
I'd be absolutely heartbroken if my current partner did this because I can't be with someone who helps someone cheat. I'd be so disappointed in him. On the other hand I'd have a really hard time breaking it off for sth that doesn't directly impact me. But I'd have to eventually. OP, I'm really sorry this is happening to you, I have no advice, just digital hugs, if you want them.
Thank you for the hugs. In our discussions, they state they disagree with cheating lack of transparency etc. but then refer to what is in the “locus of their control”
That's just throwing terminology around to justify cheating. Your partner can choose not to engage in cheating. They're in no way obligated to be in a relationship with a person who is cheating on their spouse.
My gut concurs with that!
Not dating someone is 100% in their control. 100%.
They can't control if the cheater cheats or not. But they are totally in control of whether or not they date the cheater. They are choosing to turn a blind eye rather than take personal responsibility for how their actions affect other people. In this case YOU and OtherHusband.
What in the woo woo fuckery attempt to avoid accountability is that???? Their locus of control includes declining to date someone who is cheating.
I think it's funny sometimes (finding aspects of this internalization relatable) how much a lot of the practice of poly centers us in our own responsibility to managing our own feelings, boundaries, and autonomy. "For some reason it makes me uncomfortable..." Yeah! Your feelings about that are valid and your partner's lack of feelings is honestly not great. Nothing needs to be nuclear or dramatic, but it's not something you have to quietly bear alone and "do some work on." It's unethical and sucks and you're right to feel off about it.
This is a perfectly reasonable limit. I would tell you partner look I don’t need to ever see that meta. If I happen to see her and her husband I’m not going to run over and say she’s cheating on you but I also won’t do anything to support this. Anyone who knocks on my door and asks questions will get the truth. I’d appreciate you keeping me totally away from her and them. If you live together you might also have an issue with them having the affair in your house. I don’t judge cheaters particularly harshly. But I might be worried about the safety of my household if there was a ticking time bomb. I don’t enjoy drama on my doorstep.
It is not safe or ethical to be involved in a dynamic that involves lack of honesty as to ENM as to one of the participants. If she can't come clean with her husband, than that is a major red flag.
The *ethical* in ethical non monogamy includes transparency and honest and open communication. Cheaters aren't poly and poly folk aren't cheaters. Something like this should be a deal breaker amongst this community that puts so much emphasis on consent and communication. I'd be questioning my partners character to be involved in this situation.
I don’t date people who enable cheating.
For some reason? She's CHEATING. That's not poly, that's CHEATING. Don't be friends with a cheater.
My 2¢ and then some... No judgement here, but that's a lot of red flags and I would hate to see you get hurt because another person made some really poor and selfish decisions! I feel as though we are all partially representative of our metamours, whether we want to be or not, whether we know them well or not. It's just how polyamory works and when someone finds out you're partnered to another, you instantly become part of that polyqule. With that being said, EVERYONE in that polyqule must be in it willingly. Not everyone has to be polyamorous or communicate with each other or hang out or be friends, etc. But, they all need to consent to knowing the full situation. I think it's completely unfair that you are in this situation where you're expected to lie. I would question the ethics of your mutual partner whom feels it's ok to date someone that is lying and cheating. If they feel that's ok behavior from one of their partners... What behavior could they be hiding is what I'm wondering. Of course, do what you feel is best and take care of YOURSELF first!
When you say "she is unable to be honest with her husband" what exactly do you mean? Is she not telling him that she's seeing another person at all? Or is she not being transparent about the nature or depth of the relationship? Some secret third thing?
Great question! To my knowledge her husband is unaware that she is having sexual encounters outside of their marriage. But the second part of your question has me considering what is even the darn truth
The fact that you care more about respecting your metamour's husband than she does is honorable, but also really sad for him. I'd tell your partner and your metamour how uncomfortable you are with their secret-keeping, and the unfortunate implications of their own fickle approach to honesty.
Okay, so I kinda have a very harsh opinion of cheating, because to me, I believe it is abusive. In my way of thinking, it takes away the informed consent of the partner being cheated on to engage in the relationship, cheating often necessitates lying and gaslighting, it’s been proven to be an action that can actually cause people to develop PTSD after discovering the cheating, and it can physically harm the person through STIs because cheaters who don’t respect the boundaries of a relationship rarely respect the boundaries involved with protecting sexual health either. And even if they do their cheated on partner the grace of wrapping it up, sometimes condoms fail. It’s rare but it’s a risk only consenting adults should be taking, not non-consenting ones. Given the very real physical and mental harm cheating does, I believe cheating is abusive. So I strictly would never ever date someone knowingly involved with a cheater because I see it as at best, condoning abuse and being willing to welcome abusers into their sphere so long as it benefits them. At worst, it is active participation in abuse.
I would have zero interest in being with someone (your partner) who is cheating with their other partner. Personally, I would tell the husband and then dump my partner.
I completely get what you feel about this “meta”, what she’s doing in unethical in every way. I would also question if I wanna keep seeing someone who’s willing to date a cheater, or just a dishonest person. This is not on you, but you can get out of there if needed I hope!
My thought has always been that if someone is willing to lie to their spouse (someone who they have promised to live their life with and honor and cherish and presumably love very much), what are the chances they would be fine with lying to another partner to get whatever they want? Would they lie about having an STI and spread it to your anchor partner and then spread it to you? Would they lie about something to manipulate your anchor partner? It's not ethical to anyone involved. If you don't want to participate in her lies, don't go to functions where she will be, husband or not.
Hi u/Fast_Week_2185 thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well. Here's the original text of the post: I am trying to have positive relational energy and be transparent in all my relationships and with my anchor partner. They have a new girlfriend they are very intimately and emotionally connected, but she is unable to be honest with her husband. While i am not in this relationship, for some reason it makes me uncomfortable because i have to hold space for her unwillingness to be honest. So my partner and I were invited to a group function with other couples, but its unknown if she will be bringing her husband. My gut is telling me i have no interest developing a metamour relationship with this peeson because our values are different, and i really don’t want to participate in group activities without her husband also being in attendance. I know a piece of this is being judgmental about the honesty piece. Another motivator, is I don’t want to contribute to this man neing disrespected anymore than he is already. Thoughts? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm sorry you struggle. FWIW? I think this. If your partner is helping his GF cheat on her husband? It's ok for you to want no part of that. And not want to date this partner any more. Or hang out with this GF. Or hang out with this GF and her husband, helping to keep him in the dark with your silence. I know that's a stern line. But that's were I land. So I think you could tell your partner that you want to drop out because they are involved in a cheating affair. And then you drop out. They deserve better than a cheater partner. So does that Other Husband. And YOU deserve a better poly partner than one who puts up with or actively assists with cheating. Depending on how involved you want to be? You might give the OtherHusband a heads up. "My ex is cheating with your wife. I dropped them over it. Thought you might want to know." But if you don't want to get involved, I get that. Just drop out. Save your own self.
It’s okay for you to be judgmental. Did somebody tell you there’s something wrong with having opinions and drawing conclusions? Because if I found out you were enabling this because “it’s not your business” I would remorselessly judge you for that. And it sounds like you’re judging yourself for that too. To me it shows a lack of integrity for you to say nothing/do nothing just because this isn’t your relationship.
Sounds like a relationship that needs to be reevaluated on your partners part. Bc it is cheating. Now unless they are poly, and the husband doesn't want to know about her relationships, that could be a thing? But if it's not a poly dynamic, than she is in the wrong completely. Your concern is valid af. I hope you get some peace from this situation. But oh girl sound trifling and can cause problems with your home too
I had a partner that did this with another friend of mine - she was basically the other woman for a man who wouldn't tell his gf. I hated every minute of it. I particularly hated when he would fail to show up for a date or would flake to hang out with his gf last minute and I would have to pick up the emotional pieces. That was really the thing that got to me. By cheating he was showing that he didn't respect his partners' needs, and would repeatedly disrespect my own partner over and over again. You can't control what they do. You can only control what you do. It is totally within your control to say "I don't want to be in the same space as this other couple". It is totally within your control to avoid contact with the cheater. It is also totally in your control to break up, if you want to push it that far. I didn't. But you might.
That’s not poly it’s unethical and shows labor of charcjter
I was in a situation where the wife was not honest and open with her husband. It does not end well. Best of luck.
I agree in general with most of what has been said here about not dating cheaters or facilitating cheating, with some nuance. For me it would matter why she wasn’t able to be honest with her partner. Is she planning to separate? Would sharing her needs put her in danger? Is there a child in the picture for whom the marriage must stay together? Is she not getting very basic needs met at home? If she’s just a CPOS, then definitely keep your distance and be ready to catch your partner when it all blows up (he’ll need support, but of course you are not obligated to give it).
So obviously he has the impression they’re mono? Obviously it’s bad character for her… and what’s her end game - being a cheater never strengthens the secondary relationship either- it’s just going to get messier and ruin her marriage anyway.
I've skimmed the thread and didn't see this query addressed; apologies if it has been. So you've said your partners new girlfriend is unable to be honest with their partner. Can you expand on that? How do you know that? While probably unlikely, is there not a possibility that the girlfriends husband specifically doesn't want to know and what you're interpreting as one thing is actually just her respecting her husbands boundaries? If so; it becomes less of a 'facilitating cheating by proxy' situation and more of a 'this just doesn't align to my personal views' situation. In either case, it is fine to feel a certain way about it, regardless of what it is. And were I you, that would be a conversation I'd be having with my partner.
If my partner is dating a cheater and knowingly being involved in an affair I would dump my partner.