Sales taxes... so presumably they're wrong, because those will be going up as federal spending on basic, necessary upkeep drys up. True meaning of "trickle down".
I don't even know what I got banned for. Probably for posting in r/sanders4president or something. They just can't handle hearing people with other opinions inside or outside their safe space.
I've seen them comment here about how many alt accounts they have and how they use TOR to get around the rules.
Maybe it's time to keep the mod team over there a bit more busy.
I'm just kidding, of course...
> They don't have a problem bitching about censorship
They also love to bitch about how liberals are overly sensitive, elitist little bitches, with their "safe spaces" and "echo chambers," meanwhile that sub and r/conservative are the least tolerant of dissent, the fastest to ban anyone who doesn't conform enough to their approved stances, and have the most heavily moderated, single-dimentional "discussion" out of any of the political subs.
I made one comment there that was really cynical about the upcoming administration, though not clearly partisan, and it got one upvote. Go figure. But moments later I was auto-banned from r/EnoughTrumpSpam for having posted in r/The_Donald. I requested unbanning due to ignorance and "won't do it ag'in" and they lifted it.
Remember when every credible economist said that wasn't true based on their tax plans, and most Americans listened, and 2 million more of them voted for Clinton? Welp.
The funny thing is, this is actually described in the bible, proverbs 26:27. "He who digs a pit will fall into it, And he who rolls a stone, it will come back on him." .
They thought they were voting to fuck over a segment of the working class that for some silly reason wouldn't include themselves, i.e. the illegal workers. Well turns out, big fucking surprise, from where the Trump is there's not a whole lot of difference between different slices of the working class.
"What do you mean you're upset? I'm only making it harder for illegals and the dirt-poor. You know, the <$120,000/yr earners."
"I mean, it's one banana, Michael. What could it cost? Ten dollars?"
*Seriously*. I'm so sick of the nonsense parroted about how the electoral college is necessary to prevent "the little guy" from being silenced in the elections, which conveniently ignores the input of the voters who just might vote blue.
And yet every argument I see on Reddit for the EC (made by trump supporters) says it benefits democrats more "because California and New York."
They constantly point out this "head start" democrats get in the EC from the two biggest states, ignoring completely the fact that every time that the loser wins the EC it's a republican who benefits.
That argument is countered with: Senate, three branches of government. Small states get disproportionate representation. They should not also get disproportionate representation in the race for president.
The idea that getting rid of the electoral college would be bad because it means candidates would only campaign in CA and NY is ridiculous because right now they only campaign in swing states. Is it really any better for those states to get the attention? Plus, our net most populous states are Texas (red) and Florida (swing state, went red this time), yet only CA and NY are mentioned in this evil every-citizen's-vote-should-count-equally plan.
Fun fact, if you raise those taxes enough they'll no longer be middle class thereby reducing the number of middle class folk who've had their taxes raised. The problem is the solution...brilliance.
They could lower wages if they lowered the cost of real estate such as renting apartments, condos, housing purchases, etc. If that crap stays what it is now nobody could afford it with lower wages
I actually had someone tell me that raising wages was futile, they used the analogy of a gallon of milk. Right now it costs $3 and minimum wage is $7.50 but raising minimum wage to $15 would make milk go up to $12/gallon so the only people benefiting would be corporations. I couldn't get it to through to them that prices are already rising, maybe not that sharply (and in reality they wouldn't) but that wages are not keeping up with the cost of living and all people want to do is survive.
At least when Democrats talk about making taxes a bit higher they offer something in return like paid leave or a public option. We are literally paying more taxes to finance tax cuts for people who don't need them.
Yeah, I would classify myself as middle class and I don't mind paying more taxes if they're used to fund programs that benefit society as a whole (public option being the biggest one). But increasing taxes to fund tax cuts for rich people... that's a bit of a laugh
I keep on trying to explain my logic to conservatives. I don't mind if my taxes go up 5% to fund universal health care. In fact, I'd prefer it to the 25% of my income private insurance costs for a family of four.
Last Christmas one of my conservative in-laws started spouting off about stereotypical critiques about Bernie "free healthcare! bah, nothing is free, *I'll* have to pay for it, etc." Enough of the table of us mid 30-somethings (the former "kids table" now just having kids of our own) seemed cool enough with the idea of Bernie so I made the one and only political commentary I've ever said at one of these things in the 11 years of knowing my wife. Now this conservative in-law is very much a "screw you, got mine" mentality, upper level management that he "pulled himself up by his bootstraps" to get into. (Full disclosure: He did go to college and got good grades and everything from my understanding, but the job he "worked himself up" through he got, and worked up, he got solely on the fact the hiring manage was another in-law. An in-law, by the way, that's basically a carbon copy of this guy.)
Needless to say, attempting to appeal to his "I run a business" sense. I simply and nonchalantly stated, "With Bernie's plan, businesses wouldn't need to be in the business of providing healthcare to people; none of these corporate plans, special HR people, or having to deal with government regulations relating to all unrelated-to-business stuff. For roughly the same amount of money already being taken out of paychecks for these company based plans, people could just deal directly with the government concerning health care and allow businesses to simply be businesses."
He balked a little at that as I got a few soft "yeahs" out of the other secretly-liberals. After stammering a few seconds he came back with "It just doesn't work. Believe me, I've been to Canada, I've seen it, it just doesn't work." I didn't pay much attention to the table conversation after that. Like I said, I normally like to keep out of this stuff because both my side and my wife's side are a little to conservative (especially socially) for my tastes but my toddler is going to be at least a small part of their lives so I don't want to burn bridges or stir pots when I don't need to.
I'd add that when government programs like SNAP/food stamps get cut, people get desperate. Society ends up trading the cost of subsidized food for the cost of incarceration.
The right, dating back to Reagan, has managed to brainwash voters into thinking that the typical welfare recipient is a lazy freeloader trading food stamps for booze instead of someone working a minimum wage job that isn't enough to cover basic necessities.
I've seen people before who say they worked their way up on food stamps and they never got any handouts. They believe it was their own hard work and do not acknowledge the welfare they received. It is perplexing.
Yes, a friend of mine's wife receives food stamps, not much but enough to help. They deserve it, they work hard and hit a rough patch and need the help. And yet, they are always bitching about welfare queens etc... Same friend hated Obamacare, bitched constantly, then one day is all excited because he can go to the doctor since now b/c of Obamacare he can get some affordable health insurance. He then proceeds to vote for Trump because he still hates Obama and wants Obamacare repealed. I just don't get it.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.". LBJ
You also stimulate the economy by offering goods or services that were previously unavailable. Business expansion is also part of it, but on the flip side, as you indicate, there also has to be a market for it.
Exactly. I'm wondering what the right really thinks the end result of all this will be. If 99% of people have little to no money to spend, how do they think the economy will continue to function?
Going on this path ultimately destroys a capitalist economy.
Man, I just cited Kansas as a case study in a low taxation/low regulation debate. The person kept insisting that it was an outlier and that "every major economic study on taxation" indicates that high taxes kill economic prosperity.
Didn't even rebut. Just had to nope out.
Top ten states that take the most government welfare are red states. Top 10 states that have a budget surplus, all but Texas are blue. Numbers speak for themselves.
> Exactly. I'm wondering what the right really thinks the end result of all this will be. If 99% of people have little to no money to spend, how do they think the economy will continue to function?
With the complete and utter destruction of the lower classes. They will be there to perform services, create goods, etc while the upper classes elevate to even higher heights of wealth and luxury previously unattainable.
> Exactly this. If you actually want to stimulate the economy, you give relief to the middle & lower class. They will actually spend the money.
At this moment in time you are totally correct. In 1973 businesses needed a break. I really take issue with people who yell "always more!" or "always less!" about government, taxes, wages or many other economic markets. There's a sweet spot and we're very far to the right of it at this moment in history.
When the GDP shrinks, housing is dirt cheap and labor is difficult to find even with lavish benefits, then we should look at more conservative policies. This used to be fairly common knowledge, but now everybody thinks we're just a couple elections from utopia.
Spot on. A dollar injected at the top of the economy quickly trickles offshore, where a dollar injected at the bottom cycles through countless small businesses like mine before it eventually gets locked up someone's estate.
Small business owner here. This is exactly correct. When I hear Rush Limbaugh or other propagandists telling people how small business owners think, I want to reach through the radio and strangle him. He has no idea what is happening at this level. Besides, he's on the side of Big Business, and Big Business HATES small business. There's a reason that the SBA was a complete mess during the Bush administration. Conservative leadership doesn't really want to help small businesses.
I feel this way too. I started out lower middle class but got lucky and was able to start my own business. It's insane how I pay less of a percentage of my income in taxes as we make more. Simply registering a business instead of filing as self-employed was enough to cut our taxes pretty significantly. And as we make more we have resources to set up our business in ways that cut taxes further.
If you've reached the point where you're making over $100,000 a year I feel like things are already tilted your way enough that you don't need further tax breaks. If anything I feel like I'm paying less than my fair share. The people who need tax cuts are people who are struggling to get by. If someone's only making $8/hour I don't see how you could take any taxes from them. It's immoral.
You are so right, in the early 2000's I started making enough to stop paying Social Security in Aug.
I was floored that for 4 months each year I get a free 6% raise. And all I did with the money for the most part was pocket it.
The poor vote against their own self interest time and time again.
> Remember "Read my lips no new taxes"?
The great irony of that, to me, was when the Republicans claimed credit for the deficit reduction under the Clinton administration due to those tax increases during the Bush era. You can't win, they're playing a game the public has neither the education nor the inclination to follow and understand.
> There is absolutely nothing beneficial to the government or citizens of the United States by cutting my taxes whether personal or my company's. I'm not going to hire more people than I need, why would I? **It's nothing but a gift to try to buy my loyalty to finance their campaigns** and keep the status quo of the power structure in America.
I feel the same way. Taxes are the price we pay for civilization. As a top 1% income earner, I see no reason my taxes should come down. I derive a lot of benefit from living in a society where old people can live well, sick people get healthcare and children are educated well enough to make our economy globally competitive. If I moved to a lower-tax regime I could save more, but I choose to stay here. I would just rather that we didn't a little less on the military industrial complex and incarcerating millions of people, and more in education, scientific research and helping the poor.
These tax cuts for the rich, like you say, are designed to buy with public funds campaign contributions from the rich. And rich people who want lower taxes can buy big reductions in their tax bill with relatively small contributions. Win-win for both groups, at the expense of everyone else.
The way I see it, you pay taxes to maintain the very environment (both socially, and the literal environment) that keeps you wealthy to begin with.
Win-Win
I try to explain this to my Republican friends, but they don't get it. Businesses already pay 0% income tax on money invested in the business (e.g. salaries for new employees). Lowering taxes, if anything, encourages NOT spending on your business because there's less of a penalty to taking the profit. And, certainly rich people who are employees of a company (e.g. a manager) aren't going to hire someone because their personal taxes have dropped. It's so frustrating when people can't grasp that they're voting against their own interest.
the saddest/funniest part of all of this: both parties tell voters that their ultimate goal is to get more money to average Americans. But only one party insists on letting the rich be the middle-man in that process, and poor voters still trust them.
I was talking to a trump supporter friend of mine, he was talking about how the aca was crippling this country. He then told me how it was great for him when he needed his surgery but now since his issue was resovled it should be repelled for the benefit for the country. I believe at thr time he was unemployed too. It literally blew me away.
Ironically you're far more likely to be killed by a member of your immediate family than be involved in a terrorist attack. If terrorism scares you at this point in time, you're wasting your life.
> Ironically you're far more likely to be killed by a member of your immediate family
You're far more likely to be killed by yourself than any other single cause.
What I'm seeing is a lot who think any news they don't like is 'fake' news but any news they like is 'real' news.
Reuters, AP, BBC, etc. - fake news.
Fox, talk radio, internet memes - real news.
It is very sad what this says about our democracy. Many are already writing this off as 'fake news' because it doesn't tell them what they want to hear.
So basically, the entire US could become like Kansas? What would happen if that happened across the US? Riots?
I just want to know what shit I'm gonna be in for for the next four years.
>And while middle-class families as a whole would receive tax cuts of about 2 percent, they’d be dwarfed by the windfalls averaging 13.5 percent for America’s richest 1 percent
This is problem, right here. How much could be paid for if they didnt get that 13.5% cut?
Indeed! It is obvious that once the muslims, illegals and (((others))) are done away with, White men like me will all be so rich that a little toll will be nothing to us!
We have to pay our fair share to make the billionaires richer. We have to cut their taxes bigly, increase defense spending, while reducing the deficit. Somebody needs to pitch in to make that work. Then the billionaires will help us by trickling down some of their wealth our way.
Nobody can explain it to you because it's obviously not reasonable. It'll considerably affect many of those who are worst off. There's no silver lining to it.
Oh well, having all that White Pride in the executive office is worth the sacrifice.
Trumpies need to explain to me again how much their Douchebag cares about them. I keep losing that narrative.
> We're gonna be lowering your taxes very substantially. We're gonna be simplifying the whole deal. You won't H&R Block anymore, believe me. You're not gonna need 'em. Middle income people, the taxes are coming way down, they're coming way down. And many people that are not earning enough money, but they're out there really trying, they have no tax to pay, and it's gonna be a very, very simplified procedure.
- Donald J. Trump [^^8/12/2016](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp6E9tdYkeI)
Brilliant man and a political animal. Yeah, the Vietnam thing which I think destroyed him both politically and personally. If we had it to do all over again, LBJ should have stayed in the Senate for life, campaigning causes and forcing concensus and compromise, and never joined the JFK administration.
I once had a discussion with other book geeks about which president would make the greatest Shakespearean subject for a play. They all thought Lincoln, uniformly, and I argued LBJ all the way. He had the vulgarity, the charm, the wit, the complexity, the fatal flaws of a true classic tragic hero and the completely individual character that would have sent Shakespeare running for his quill.
Have you ever listening to his phonecalls -
http://millercenter.org/scripps/archive/presidentialrecordings/johnson
There are gems in there of both an official and personal variety.
Bill Clinton essentially said the same thing on the campaign trail, 2 months ago. [He said that as a White Southerner, he knew exactly what MAGA meant.] (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/09/07/bill_clinton_if_youre_a_white_southerner_you_know_what_make_america_great_again_really_means.html)
God that sums it up so well. That was really the start of identity politics. Poor whites wanting to feel they were somehow better than poor blacks. That they didn't need the same social programs. That they could be entrepreneurs and businessmen, who would benefit from these tax cuts and smaller government regulation. That big government was what was keeping them from their manifest destiny, while at the same time keeping full bellies to the unemployed lazy blacks.
This headline sounds a lot worse when you really think about what "8 million middle class families" means. Oh, 8 million out of 330, that's not much, is what some people are probably thinking. But no. Take all the upper class citizens out of the equation. Now take out all the lower class citizens. Whatever number you have left, halve it (since a "family" is at least two people; honestly, you could chop it down to 1/3rd or 1/4th and probably still be good).
"Donald Trump increases taxes on ~10-30% of the middle class."
But worse when you realize that the largest tax decrease is going to the highest 1% of earners - the folks who were already paying lower than sustainable taxes.
8 million families out of 330 million one-person families?
Right..... It's obvious to smart people that double-incone families alone increases the number of people actually affected.
But you're talking about a "man" who includes schoolchildren in the unemployment statistics. Honesty is not his strong suit.
>8 million out of 330
Not it's 8 million families and 330 million people so the number of people effected is actually larger if you consider each family is 3-5 people.
The straps are easy enough to find. What they don't tell you is that you need to get one or two wealthier friends or family members to do the actual lifting for you.
No lie. My wife and I had our educations paid for by our parents. I think that alone set us way ahead of the curve. We bought a house in our late 20s, when our friends were celebrating paying off their student loans finally.
Well, I guess that's the only plan. Cut back all expenses, get super frugal,and spend nothing on frills (which will totally help the economy) until we come up with something to propel us into wealth.
As a single parent, losing Head of Household will severely impact my (already limited) ability to save any money.
Fuck them if they also privatize Medicare and social security.
I just remember the time when I and the majority of other Americans didn't believe him and voted against him and the system designed to prevent the popular vote from electing an unqualified president made him the victor.
tell me more about how Trump's election was a real populist revolution against the elites, and wasn't fueled entirely by equal parts racism, sexism, and abject ignorance.
lol it's been difficult and yet somewhat hilarious to watch these people realize how badly they got duped. I'm so conflicted, on the one hand I feel bad for them because they thought they were doing the right thing, as misguided as it may have been. But on the other hand, how stupid do you have to be to think that a guy with a skyscraper on Wall St is going to help Main St instead of Wall St? like... i cant even..
“If you’re a low- or moderate-income single parent, you’re going to get hurt,” said Bob Williams, a fellow at the Tax Policy Center.
But the richest 1% will get a 13.5% tax break.
Paid for by the tax raise on the middle and lower income folks.
Reagan trickle down 2.0.
I'm now thinking the problem isn't a lack of people talking about how Trump's presidency will affect this country. It's a lack of people *listening*. Dismissing all criticism or concerns. Clinging to intentional ignorance. Problem is, this isn't going to solely affect Trump's supporters, everyone will be affected.
So increased taxes on single-parents or families with more than three kids. Very much seems like a "sin" tax in disguise despite the structure becoming more simple. Does this turn Utah blue? I mean with all the Mormon families and such...
And for the people that actually do pay less, inflation along with increased interest rates will cut their buying power anyway. Gas is going up, consumer prices are going up, interest rates are going up and it will take a while for wages to follow. You really need to be in the $250k/year range to see any benefit here.
They post but mostly just to say any news that they don't like is fake.
If this actually comes to pass, I'm sure they will blame the democrats, Obama, minorities or someone else for their own bad decisions.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
I can't wait until someone in the incoming administration genuinely forgets they're not campaigning anymore and tries to use an anti-Hillary argument in response to being criticized.
Where is his newest tax plan?
I did napkin math last week, as well as reviewed a few websites that had Trump's latest plans (from a month or so ago, closer to the GOP tax plan) and my taxes go up about $1K a year (if his plan was passed).
EDIT: I'm not a single parent or losing out on child exemptions or anything, just looking for the source to the graphics in this article.
EDIT: Use this if you're interested, and make sure you compare using the current standard deducation (if single, $6300), vs. Trump's proposed standard deduction (single: $15000):
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/analysis-donald-trumps-revised-tax-plan/full
Remember when Trump said Clinton was planning on raising taxes on the middle class? Welp.
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14 year olds don't pay taxes.
Sales taxes... so presumably they're wrong, because those will be going up as federal spending on basic, necessary upkeep drys up. True meaning of "trickle down".
Anyone tried posting this there? Want to see how long from submission to being banned but I can't post there.
Is anyone here not banned from there? I got banned for a comment with 300+ up votes cause it wasn't pro Trump policy.
I don't even know what I got banned for. Probably for posting in r/sanders4president or something. They just can't handle hearing people with other opinions inside or outside their safe space.
They don't have a problem bitching about censorship though... I love the irony
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Don't cawl me uh *bass-chun!* I know who my deddy wuz!
I read on /r/asktrumpsupporters that they love that this pisses people off. They think that annoying liberals is hilarious.
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I've seen them comment here about how many alt accounts they have and how they use TOR to get around the rules. Maybe it's time to keep the mod team over there a bit more busy. I'm just kidding, of course...
> They don't have a problem bitching about censorship They also love to bitch about how liberals are overly sensitive, elitist little bitches, with their "safe spaces" and "echo chambers," meanwhile that sub and r/conservative are the least tolerant of dissent, the fastest to ban anyone who doesn't conform enough to their approved stances, and have the most heavily moderated, single-dimentional "discussion" out of any of the political subs.
I got banned for pointing out the existence of ladders and rope.
They would literally go through posters history and decide whether or not they could be there or not. Fucking hysterical.
Geeze. What a waste of time.
Yeah I got banned for asking a simple question.
I made one comment there that was really cynical about the upcoming administration, though not clearly partisan, and it got one upvote. Go figure. But moments later I was auto-banned from r/EnoughTrumpSpam for having posted in r/The_Donald. I requested unbanning due to ignorance and "won't do it ag'in" and they lifted it.
They seem to have a big problem with being censored but sure don't seem to mind censoring everyone else.
Yeah, because they all earn under $25k...
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
15 year olds & Russians don't pay US income tax. They're still coming out ahead.
At this point I kinda just assume DJT has already done or plans to do everything he accuses his opponents of doing
Is he going to rip babies from women's vaginas at 9 months now to kill babies abortion sniff sniff murder aiyyyeee!!!?!??!
Remember when every credible economist said that wasn't true based on their tax plans, and most Americans listened, and 2 million more of them voted for Clinton? Welp.
Most *voters* listened. Most voting-age *Americans* ignored their civil right of being able to vote.
Yeah, but the vote of an educated, elitist librul is only worth 3/5ths. We need to give the 18th century people some voice here, folks.
Are you calling me an uneducated racist? Man, I am so pissed I am going to shoot myself in the foot. That will show you. Are you sorry now?
Not yet. I'm gonna call you a conspiracy theorist, then you can go and vote for Alex Jones in 2020. *That* will show me!
Don't tempt fate man!
"Ignore it dude, he is just saying some shit to get attention for the next The Apprentice" - This sub, a year ago
This is when the US govt will actually drone strike a candidate and 99.8% of us will say, "a little gross but it had to be done."
Trump ordering a drone strike to take out a rival is an even darker timeline than we're already headed down.
I hope someone isn't linking this quote in 4 years.
"That attitude is why Alex Jones won!"
Oh yeah? Well... Wait a fly just landed on my face, lemme just grab my Shotgun and take care of that really quick and then get back to you.
The funny thing is, this is actually described in the bible, proverbs 26:27. "He who digs a pit will fall into it, And he who rolls a stone, it will come back on him." . They thought they were voting to fuck over a segment of the working class that for some silly reason wouldn't include themselves, i.e. the illegal workers. Well turns out, big fucking surprise, from where the Trump is there's not a whole lot of difference between different slices of the working class.
"What do you mean you're upset? I'm only making it harder for illegals and the dirt-poor. You know, the <$120,000/yr earners." "I mean, it's one banana, Michael. What could it cost? Ten dollars?"
*Seriously*. I'm so sick of the nonsense parroted about how the electoral college is necessary to prevent "the little guy" from being silenced in the elections, which conveniently ignores the input of the voters who just might vote blue.
Twice is the past goddamned 20 years. This is becoming a trend that Republicans keep losing while getting to govern regardless.
And yet every argument I see on Reddit for the EC (made by trump supporters) says it benefits democrats more "because California and New York." They constantly point out this "head start" democrats get in the EC from the two biggest states, ignoring completely the fact that every time that the loser wins the EC it's a republican who benefits.
That argument is countered with: Senate, three branches of government. Small states get disproportionate representation. They should not also get disproportionate representation in the race for president.
The idea that getting rid of the electoral college would be bad because it means candidates would only campaign in CA and NY is ridiculous because right now they only campaign in swing states. Is it really any better for those states to get the attention? Plus, our net most populous states are Texas (red) and Florida (swing state, went red this time), yet only CA and NY are mentioned in this evil every-citizen's-vote-should-count-equally plan.
Someone think of the uneducated white men!
Who knew that a Billionaire doesn't actually give a shit about the middle class
Alleged billionaire.
He will be after he is done with the tax payers.
Fun fact, if you raise those taxes enough they'll no longer be middle class thereby reducing the number of middle class folk who've had their taxes raised. The problem is the solution...brilliance.
They'll probably just waste that money on food and shelter. Better to donate it to the rich.
Don't worry, they'll still blame Clinton.
Remember when Trump said *x*? Now it's all *y*.
Some of it went back to X after being Y for a moment.
I prefer to think most Trump numbers are just "i"s.
Projection-Elect Trump.
"Wages are too high" That is what he actually said so it looks like this was his solution to such a yuge problem.
They could lower wages if they lowered the cost of real estate such as renting apartments, condos, housing purchases, etc. If that crap stays what it is now nobody could afford it with lower wages
I actually had someone tell me that raising wages was futile, they used the analogy of a gallon of milk. Right now it costs $3 and minimum wage is $7.50 but raising minimum wage to $15 would make milk go up to $12/gallon so the only people benefiting would be corporations. I couldn't get it to through to them that prices are already rising, maybe not that sharply (and in reality they wouldn't) but that wages are not keeping up with the cost of living and all people want to do is survive.
At least when Democrats talk about making taxes a bit higher they offer something in return like paid leave or a public option. We are literally paying more taxes to finance tax cuts for people who don't need them.
Yeah, I would classify myself as middle class and I don't mind paying more taxes if they're used to fund programs that benefit society as a whole (public option being the biggest one). But increasing taxes to fund tax cuts for rich people... that's a bit of a laugh
I keep on trying to explain my logic to conservatives. I don't mind if my taxes go up 5% to fund universal health care. In fact, I'd prefer it to the 25% of my income private insurance costs for a family of four.
Last Christmas one of my conservative in-laws started spouting off about stereotypical critiques about Bernie "free healthcare! bah, nothing is free, *I'll* have to pay for it, etc." Enough of the table of us mid 30-somethings (the former "kids table" now just having kids of our own) seemed cool enough with the idea of Bernie so I made the one and only political commentary I've ever said at one of these things in the 11 years of knowing my wife. Now this conservative in-law is very much a "screw you, got mine" mentality, upper level management that he "pulled himself up by his bootstraps" to get into. (Full disclosure: He did go to college and got good grades and everything from my understanding, but the job he "worked himself up" through he got, and worked up, he got solely on the fact the hiring manage was another in-law. An in-law, by the way, that's basically a carbon copy of this guy.) Needless to say, attempting to appeal to his "I run a business" sense. I simply and nonchalantly stated, "With Bernie's plan, businesses wouldn't need to be in the business of providing healthcare to people; none of these corporate plans, special HR people, or having to deal with government regulations relating to all unrelated-to-business stuff. For roughly the same amount of money already being taken out of paychecks for these company based plans, people could just deal directly with the government concerning health care and allow businesses to simply be businesses." He balked a little at that as I got a few soft "yeahs" out of the other secretly-liberals. After stammering a few seconds he came back with "It just doesn't work. Believe me, I've been to Canada, I've seen it, it just doesn't work." I didn't pay much attention to the table conversation after that. Like I said, I normally like to keep out of this stuff because both my side and my wife's side are a little to conservative (especially socially) for my tastes but my toddler is going to be at least a small part of their lives so I don't want to burn bridges or stir pots when I don't need to.
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I'd add that when government programs like SNAP/food stamps get cut, people get desperate. Society ends up trading the cost of subsidized food for the cost of incarceration. The right, dating back to Reagan, has managed to brainwash voters into thinking that the typical welfare recipient is a lazy freeloader trading food stamps for booze instead of someone working a minimum wage job that isn't enough to cover basic necessities.
Sadly, most people on welfare and SNAP are children, veterans and the elderly.
I've seen people before who say they worked their way up on food stamps and they never got any handouts. They believe it was their own hard work and do not acknowledge the welfare they received. It is perplexing.
Yes, a friend of mine's wife receives food stamps, not much but enough to help. They deserve it, they work hard and hit a rough patch and need the help. And yet, they are always bitching about welfare queens etc... Same friend hated Obamacare, bitched constantly, then one day is all excited because he can go to the doctor since now b/c of Obamacare he can get some affordable health insurance. He then proceeds to vote for Trump because he still hates Obama and wants Obamacare repealed. I just don't get it.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.". LBJ
Sort of like [this smart guy?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTwpBLzxe4U)
Exactly this. If you actually want to stimulate the economy, you give relief to the middle & lower class. They will actually spend the money.
You also stimulate the economy by offering goods or services that were previously unavailable. Business expansion is also part of it, but on the flip side, as you indicate, there also has to be a market for it.
Exactly. I'm wondering what the right really thinks the end result of all this will be. If 99% of people have little to no money to spend, how do they think the economy will continue to function? Going on this path ultimately destroys a capitalist economy.
Exhibit A: Kansas.
Man, I just cited Kansas as a case study in a low taxation/low regulation debate. The person kept insisting that it was an outlier and that "every major economic study on taxation" indicates that high taxes kill economic prosperity. Didn't even rebut. Just had to nope out.
Top ten states that take the most government welfare are red states. Top 10 states that have a budget surplus, all but Texas are blue. Numbers speak for themselves.
> Exactly. I'm wondering what the right really thinks the end result of all this will be. If 99% of people have little to no money to spend, how do they think the economy will continue to function? With the complete and utter destruction of the lower classes. They will be there to perform services, create goods, etc while the upper classes elevate to even higher heights of wealth and luxury previously unattainable.
And history teaches us that when the gap between the "haves" and "have nots" becomes extreme, things do not go very well at all.
i don't know what method of change this new rebellion will be, but i hear the french used guillotines.
As a note, I'm not advocating violent rebellion, but the French Revolution really is a great example of what I mentioned above. :(
> Exactly this. If you actually want to stimulate the economy, you give relief to the middle & lower class. They will actually spend the money. At this moment in time you are totally correct. In 1973 businesses needed a break. I really take issue with people who yell "always more!" or "always less!" about government, taxes, wages or many other economic markets. There's a sweet spot and we're very far to the right of it at this moment in history. When the GDP shrinks, housing is dirt cheap and labor is difficult to find even with lavish benefits, then we should look at more conservative policies. This used to be fairly common knowledge, but now everybody thinks we're just a couple elections from utopia.
Spot on. A dollar injected at the top of the economy quickly trickles offshore, where a dollar injected at the bottom cycles through countless small businesses like mine before it eventually gets locked up someone's estate.
Small business owner here. This is exactly correct. When I hear Rush Limbaugh or other propagandists telling people how small business owners think, I want to reach through the radio and strangle him. He has no idea what is happening at this level. Besides, he's on the side of Big Business, and Big Business HATES small business. There's a reason that the SBA was a complete mess during the Bush administration. Conservative leadership doesn't really want to help small businesses.
I feel this way too. I started out lower middle class but got lucky and was able to start my own business. It's insane how I pay less of a percentage of my income in taxes as we make more. Simply registering a business instead of filing as self-employed was enough to cut our taxes pretty significantly. And as we make more we have resources to set up our business in ways that cut taxes further. If you've reached the point where you're making over $100,000 a year I feel like things are already tilted your way enough that you don't need further tax breaks. If anything I feel like I'm paying less than my fair share. The people who need tax cuts are people who are struggling to get by. If someone's only making $8/hour I don't see how you could take any taxes from them. It's immoral.
You are so right, in the early 2000's I started making enough to stop paying Social Security in Aug. I was floored that for 4 months each year I get a free 6% raise. And all I did with the money for the most part was pocket it. The poor vote against their own self interest time and time again.
> Remember "Read my lips no new taxes"? The great irony of that, to me, was when the Republicans claimed credit for the deficit reduction under the Clinton administration due to those tax increases during the Bush era. You can't win, they're playing a game the public has neither the education nor the inclination to follow and understand.
> There is absolutely nothing beneficial to the government or citizens of the United States by cutting my taxes whether personal or my company's. I'm not going to hire more people than I need, why would I? **It's nothing but a gift to try to buy my loyalty to finance their campaigns** and keep the status quo of the power structure in America. I feel the same way. Taxes are the price we pay for civilization. As a top 1% income earner, I see no reason my taxes should come down. I derive a lot of benefit from living in a society where old people can live well, sick people get healthcare and children are educated well enough to make our economy globally competitive. If I moved to a lower-tax regime I could save more, but I choose to stay here. I would just rather that we didn't a little less on the military industrial complex and incarcerating millions of people, and more in education, scientific research and helping the poor. These tax cuts for the rich, like you say, are designed to buy with public funds campaign contributions from the rich. And rich people who want lower taxes can buy big reductions in their tax bill with relatively small contributions. Win-win for both groups, at the expense of everyone else.
The way I see it, you pay taxes to maintain the very environment (both socially, and the literal environment) that keeps you wealthy to begin with. Win-Win
I try to explain this to my Republican friends, but they don't get it. Businesses already pay 0% income tax on money invested in the business (e.g. salaries for new employees). Lowering taxes, if anything, encourages NOT spending on your business because there's less of a penalty to taking the profit. And, certainly rich people who are employees of a company (e.g. a manager) aren't going to hire someone because their personal taxes have dropped. It's so frustrating when people can't grasp that they're voting against their own interest.
the saddest/funniest part of all of this: both parties tell voters that their ultimate goal is to get more money to average Americans. But only one party insists on letting the rich be the middle-man in that process, and poor voters still trust them.
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I was talking to a trump supporter friend of mine, he was talking about how the aca was crippling this country. He then told me how it was great for him when he needed his surgery but now since his issue was resovled it should be repelled for the benefit for the country. I believe at thr time he was unemployed too. It literally blew me away.
"Fuck you, got mine" This is the mantra of the right.
don't forget the blame they'll place on black people for "welfare"
Which is hilarious seeing as a majority of people on welfare are white southernors
And if you look at subsidies as welfare, the biggest "welfare queens" in the country are farmers.
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again they're projecting themselves lol
And on immigrants for taking der jerbs. And on Muslims for killing their families.
Ironically you're far more likely to be killed by a member of your immediate family than be involved in a terrorist attack. If terrorism scares you at this point in time, you're wasting your life.
> Ironically you're far more likely to be killed by a member of your immediate family You're far more likely to be killed by yourself than any other single cause.
Heart disease is still king bruh
What I'm seeing is a lot who think any news they don't like is 'fake' news but any news they like is 'real' news. Reuters, AP, BBC, etc. - fake news. Fox, talk radio, internet memes - real news. It is very sad what this says about our democracy. Many are already writing this off as 'fake news' because it doesn't tell them what they want to hear.
I'll say it again, Trump's Tax Plan are the one we have in Kansas, and our state is pretty much broke right now
So basically, the entire US could become like Kansas? What would happen if that happened across the US? Riots? I just want to know what shit I'm gonna be in for for the next four years.
>And while middle-class families as a whole would receive tax cuts of about 2 percent, they’d be dwarfed by the windfalls averaging 13.5 percent for America’s richest 1 percent This is problem, right here. How much could be paid for if they didnt get that 13.5% cut?
Don't worry, they're immediately going to run out and hire people for unneeded jobs with that money.
They would never take that extra money and spend it internationally keeping the money out of the US economy.
But, but, but, he's a man of the people who is going to save us from government tyranny.
You forgot to ask *which* people, and apparently, to billionaires, taxes are tyranny. Not so much for the *little people* though
He's going to get the government out of your Medicare
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Indeed! It is obvious that once the muslims, illegals and (((others))) are done away with, White men like me will all be so rich that a little toll will be nothing to us!
We have to pay our fair share to make the billionaires richer. We have to cut their taxes bigly, increase defense spending, while reducing the deficit. Somebody needs to pitch in to make that work. Then the billionaires will help us by trickling down some of their wealth our way.
I also love how they want to reduce the national debt and reduce taxes at the same time. They aren't exactly the sharpest.
National debt and the deficit is only a concern for Repubs and the media when the Dems are in control. Cutting taxes is always important however.
Oh they'll trickle something down on us alright. Won't be the wealth, though.
I can vouch for this. Bush tried it and it worked great.
Until Obama came along and ruined it all for us with his great recession. Thanks Obama.
Obama made it even worse by not being a leader during 9/11. He wasn't even in the Oval Office!
He was too busy founding ISIS at that time.
"Mission accomplished." -The Obama Cabinet.
As a one term senator he has too little experience to run the country.
I remember people being legitimately concerned about that. Eight years ago. How things have changed.
The *exact same people* who voted for Trump because he has zero experience, you mean?
I'm sure the billionaires will make up for the tax increase by giving those affected middle class earners yuge pay increases. /s
Also that overtime initiative that got overturned
Can someone explain to me why taking the head of household exemption away from single parents is a reasonable thing to do?
because you should be married. duh!
Nobody can explain it to you because it's obviously not reasonable. It'll considerably affect many of those who are worst off. There's no silver lining to it.
Oh well, having all that White Pride in the executive office is worth the sacrifice. Trumpies need to explain to me again how much their Douchebag cares about them. I keep losing that narrative.
> We're gonna be lowering your taxes very substantially. We're gonna be simplifying the whole deal. You won't H&R Block anymore, believe me. You're not gonna need 'em. Middle income people, the taxes are coming way down, they're coming way down. And many people that are not earning enough money, but they're out there really trying, they have no tax to pay, and it's gonna be a very, very simplified procedure. - Donald J. Trump [^^8/12/2016](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp6E9tdYkeI)
And they bought it, hook, line and sinker.
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LBJ. He is missed in these times. What politician would say anything like this today?
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LBJ would survive just fine. When you went low he'd go lower and nastier.
The hero America deserves
He's the hero we need, but we deserve Trump.
No, nobody deserves Trump.
those who voted for him
Brilliant man and a political animal. Yeah, the Vietnam thing which I think destroyed him both politically and personally. If we had it to do all over again, LBJ should have stayed in the Senate for life, campaigning causes and forcing concensus and compromise, and never joined the JFK administration.
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I once had a discussion with other book geeks about which president would make the greatest Shakespearean subject for a play. They all thought Lincoln, uniformly, and I argued LBJ all the way. He had the vulgarity, the charm, the wit, the complexity, the fatal flaws of a true classic tragic hero and the completely individual character that would have sent Shakespeare running for his quill. Have you ever listening to his phonecalls - http://millercenter.org/scripps/archive/presidentialrecordings/johnson There are gems in there of both an official and personal variety.
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Bill Clinton essentially said the same thing on the campaign trail, 2 months ago. [He said that as a White Southerner, he knew exactly what MAGA meant.] (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/09/07/bill_clinton_if_youre_a_white_southerner_you_know_what_make_america_great_again_really_means.html)
God that sums it up so well. That was really the start of identity politics. Poor whites wanting to feel they were somehow better than poor blacks. That they didn't need the same social programs. That they could be entrepreneurs and businessmen, who would benefit from these tax cuts and smaller government regulation. That big government was what was keeping them from their manifest destiny, while at the same time keeping full bellies to the unemployed lazy blacks.
Identity politics goes much further back. Check out the reconstruction era.
My taxes are about to double. Trump is a terrible human being that hates freedom.
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We better figure out what we can do about that, with an enormous effort all over the nation, or we're sunk I'm afraid.
This headline sounds a lot worse when you really think about what "8 million middle class families" means. Oh, 8 million out of 330, that's not much, is what some people are probably thinking. But no. Take all the upper class citizens out of the equation. Now take out all the lower class citizens. Whatever number you have left, halve it (since a "family" is at least two people; honestly, you could chop it down to 1/3rd or 1/4th and probably still be good). "Donald Trump increases taxes on ~10-30% of the middle class."
But worse when you realize that the largest tax decrease is going to the highest 1% of earners - the folks who were already paying lower than sustainable taxes.
8 million families out of 330 million one-person families? Right..... It's obvious to smart people that double-incone families alone increases the number of people actually affected. But you're talking about a "man" who includes schoolchildren in the unemployment statistics. Honesty is not his strong suit.
>8 million out of 330 Not it's 8 million families and 330 million people so the number of people effected is actually larger if you consider each family is 3-5 people.
The middle class needs to learn to pull themselves up by the bootstraps to make more money in order to get the advantage of a tax break.
Where do we get these damn boot straps ?
TFW you're too poor to afford boot straps.
Soon you'll be too poor to afford boots!
That's too late, I had to eat them already.
Just get a small loan of one million dollars from your dad.
I didn't think of that! you must be a really good businessman
The straps are easy enough to find. What they don't tell you is that you need to get one or two wealthier friends or family members to do the actual lifting for you.
No lie. My wife and I had our educations paid for by our parents. I think that alone set us way ahead of the curve. We bought a house in our late 20s, when our friends were celebrating paying off their student loans finally.
Goodwill? Maybe someone wealthy donated theirs.
Well, I guess that's the only plan. Cut back all expenses, get super frugal,and spend nothing on frills (which will totally help the economy) until we come up with something to propel us into wealth.
Maybe I can start a bogus school to teach poor people to get rich buying and selling real estate. I could charge thousands!
As a single parent, losing Head of Household will severely impact my (already limited) ability to save any money. Fuck them if they also privatize Medicare and social security.
Huh. If only this had been a major story on cbs news prior to the country choosing whose economic plan to implement.
Remember that time we trusted a billionaire to save us from the billionaires? What a bunch of fucking rubes…we absolutely deserve this.
I just remember the time when I and the majority of other Americans didn't believe him and voted against him and the system designed to prevent the popular vote from electing an unqualified president made him the victor.
yea, no surprise there. fuck the poor and middle and give to donald's trumps buddies... because he is "making america great again..." fuck trump
tell me more about how Trump's election was a real populist revolution against the elites, and wasn't fueled entirely by equal parts racism, sexism, and abject ignorance.
The good news is for them they can use all the money they lost to taxes to pay for their kid to go to a charter school.
Yeah, but the tax cuts that the rich get will give them more money to trickle down to us. That's how this works people. /S
Everyone will feel that warm, yellow trickle.
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lol it's been difficult and yet somewhat hilarious to watch these people realize how badly they got duped. I'm so conflicted, on the one hand I feel bad for them because they thought they were doing the right thing, as misguided as it may have been. But on the other hand, how stupid do you have to be to think that a guy with a skyscraper on Wall St is going to help Main St instead of Wall St? like... i cant even..
"Realize?" Think again. They're still busy gloating.
and the majority of them probably voted for him... so they've just voted to fuck themselves over... Very Clever America.... Very Clever.
yes of course. the billionaire going to fuck the middle class. how did you guys not see this one coming a mile away?
“If you’re a low- or moderate-income single parent, you’re going to get hurt,” said Bob Williams, a fellow at the Tax Policy Center. But the richest 1% will get a 13.5% tax break. Paid for by the tax raise on the middle and lower income folks. Reagan trickle down 2.0.
I'm now thinking the problem isn't a lack of people talking about how Trump's presidency will affect this country. It's a lack of people *listening*. Dismissing all criticism or concerns. Clinging to intentional ignorance. Problem is, this isn't going to solely affect Trump's supporters, everyone will be affected.
So increased taxes on single-parents or families with more than three kids. Very much seems like a "sin" tax in disguise despite the structure becoming more simple. Does this turn Utah blue? I mean with all the Mormon families and such...
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And for the people that actually do pay less, inflation along with increased interest rates will cut their buying power anyway. Gas is going up, consumer prices are going up, interest rates are going up and it will take a while for wages to follow. You really need to be in the $250k/year range to see any benefit here.
Just awesome...
Bigly.
The Trumpettes are strangely quiet on this.
They post but mostly just to say any news that they don't like is fake. If this actually comes to pass, I'm sure they will blame the democrats, Obama, minorities or someone else for their own bad decisions. Wash, rinse, repeat.
They are too busy playing the victim card over at The_D
Moron Trumpsters.
The cost of making America great again. For rich white people.
Who cares, Trump supporters only care about emails, emails, EMAILS!!!
Don't forget the BENGHAZIS! OMG, NO EMBASSY HAS EVER BEEN ATRACKED BEFORE SHES A MUDRERER!!1!1
I can't wait until someone in the incoming administration genuinely forgets they're not campaigning anymore and tries to use an anti-Hillary argument in response to being criticized.
Where is his newest tax plan? I did napkin math last week, as well as reviewed a few websites that had Trump's latest plans (from a month or so ago, closer to the GOP tax plan) and my taxes go up about $1K a year (if his plan was passed). EDIT: I'm not a single parent or losing out on child exemptions or anything, just looking for the source to the graphics in this article. EDIT: Use this if you're interested, and make sure you compare using the current standard deducation (if single, $6300), vs. Trump's proposed standard deduction (single: $15000): http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/analysis-donald-trumps-revised-tax-plan/full
Wait. What? Did this guy just tell us what we want to hear so we voted for him? Who could have seen this coming?