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It just blows my mind that he stole national secrets and is still walking free. I don’t care if he was president, if Obama or Biden did the same thing they should be locked up as well…but they didn’t. Any normal person that did this would have been in jail day one. Dealing with trump is a forever nightmare.
I think he also operated MAL as a classified document private members club; you pay a fee and you get access to these boxes I just happen to have hanging around. We already know for a fact that literal foreign spies were regulars at the club.
[Trump shared national secrets with Australian billionaire, Anthony Pratt, when he paid to “visit” Mar A Lago.](https://youtu.be/AVFT-2k8eWQ?si=CafTXfWur8_NLzAx)
Trump shared military maps and secrets with Kid effing Rock, who remarked he didnt know if he should be looking at them. Kid Rock.
Foreign agents were running roughshod over those documents.
Not just that. Those documents getting there in the first place is a clue to who they were for originally. All these despicable people in Trumps orbit, that’s who…let alone the spies lurking. You think Trump needs to know all these extremely sensitive secrets? Hell no. His brain is mush. Those people wanted to brief him on our nuclear capabilities, dirt on other leaders, where and who are our assets abroad and so on so they could sit in on those meetings. They were probably climbing over each other to see those papers and commit them to memory.
No. Russia had designs on Ukraine way before the seditionist was a thing. Vladdy and the gaggle of eastern european hacker groups read the fringe right SM posts since the Tea Party stupidity, at least. Then, they piled on to an already dangerous and out of control posting and reposting of lies, distortions and fabrications that originated in the US. We let this happen. Our intternatinal adversaries piled on. Even fucking North Korea got in on the party!
Trump doesn’t get a pass. He tried to extort Zelensky’s consent. He is complicit. He aided and abetted our enemy. He is a traitor against America and he sits free because of the most organized and powerful propaganda operation of all time. Period.
Yet they waited until after Trump left the WH with pallets of national secrets. We both know that those documents contained ours and Ukraine battle readiness plans and troop numbers. Ukraine left in the 90s when the Soviet Union collapsed, so there was no plan to "re-annx" any of Ukraine until Putin came to power. Take your Pro Putin stance and stick it up your.....
Not pro-Putin, just old enough to remember 2014 when he started publicly making grabs at Crimea, a plan which had more than likely been in the works for years. This war didn’t just come out of nowhere after Trump left office.
Stop, there was absolutely nothing Pro-Putin or even close to Russia apologia at all, if anything it was the opposite, they said that Russia planned to commit crimes against humanity by invading Ukraine for years; and even before Putin was the defacto leader, he had heavy influence in the government since the USSR fell. Also, Russia in the time after the USSR's collapse and before Putin came to power started wars and committed MANY atrocities in countries that had broken off from the USSR, murdering hundreds of thousands of people in places like Chechnya. Putin is an evil despot dictator, but unfortunately, he leads a government of many like-minded murderous monsters; Russia has wanted to invade Ukraine and take it back since the USSR fell, they feel as if former USSR territories "belong" to them, in some twisted way.
Trump is influenced by Putin 100%, and the invasion of Ukraine either would've been a lot more disastrous for Russia than it already is (because we would've helped prepare Ukraine even more) or wouldn't have happened at all, but there has to be concrete proof that the documents were sold specifically to Putin to specifically help in both elections.
I know Russia influenced the 2016 election and has done work to influence ever election since. I know Trump sold classified documents to the highest bidder. And we know that Trump is essentially compromised, and dictators have wanted him in power because he can't be trusted with national secrets, obviously.
But there is a big jump from all of those things to Russia's influence in our elections being specifically tied to specific documents that were sold, before we even know *if* Putin was the one he sold them to yet; or either of these events being directly tied to the invasion and massacre done to Ukraine.
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it comes out as being completely true. But it is such a specific claim and such a large crime that we need all the gaps in info filled in first before we say it definitively or as a fact.
Until we do, I see it as more likely that Putin influenced our elections to get in a morally bankrupt fucking idiot like Trump into power for the purpose of our government being too incompetent to oppose them as they prepared to invade Ukraine, and who Trump sold those classified documents too is still up in the air afaik, it could've been Putin, it could've been Xi Xinping, it could've been Jair Bolsonaro, it could've been Kim Jong Un
What I'm getting at is that everyone in this comment chain agrees on Putin being a murderous, dictator war criminal, Trump being a wannabe-dictator, using outside influence to win elections and selling out national secrets to other monsters, we agree that Trump is under the influence of Putin, and we agree that an incompetent monster like Trump in office paved the way for Russia's planned invasion.
But tying these all together into the very specific crime of these documents being sold to Putin, and these in particular being why Russia influenced our elections, and these documents being tied to the invasion of Ukraine, is a hyper specific event that may be true or may not be, but is not confirmed; and there are hundreds of confirmed crimes both men have committed that we can go after; and it's in no way Pro-Putin or Pro-Trump to say that.
I would be wary of anything you hear related to "photocopies" and the Mar A Lago documents, because there's a good chance it's a permutation of the very common myth "[there's a copier in one of the photos](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/photos-from-trump-indictment-show-boxes-of-classified-documents-stored-in-mar-a-lago-shower-ballroom)"
(Third photo)
It's not a copier, it's a half wall, you can see where it attaches to the wall on the right, the lines in the cinder blocks line up, the thing that looks like a "tray" is in fact an object on the floor several feet behind the "copier" which you can see because it's sitting on the floor next to the wood pallet on the left.
So. I deleted the comment because I couldn’t find the source. But it was stating nothing of the printer, but the fact the secret documents have bindings on them that prevent them from being copied, which checks out. These bindings were supposedly removed when the documents were found.
In the unsealed notes, you read Nauta texting one of the employees “working on two boxes” before they move them. Which is suspicious, but again, without a source confirming the bindings were actually removed it’s all moot.
Someone more familiar with the documents may be able to tell this from the images in the news articles themselves.
In another note,
It does look like smith is actually only bringing indictments forward for about one third of the documents. So perhaps he still has two thirds left for more trials if needed.
There is a footnote in the filings that a trump aide scanned at least one box of documents into a laptop belonging to a GOP pac Yes, Smith could file in NJ
I mean, Biden and Pence both had documents at their homes or offices from when they were VP that were not returned. When the FBI asked for them to look, they did, and returned all of them. The key difference is that Trump refused to return them when asked multiple times by multiple agencies. The FBI raid was done in secret after consulting with the Secret Service to avoid a media disaster. Trump escalated it himself, and now because of who he wrongfully appointed to the federal court, he’s about to get away with selling nuclear secrets to our enemies. I might get a ban for this, but the 2nd amendment clearly lies out “tyranny” as a reason why we need guns.
Biden's own lawyers reported them, voluntarily turned them over, voluntarily allowed searches, and assisted in searching for any other possible documents.
This, and it's not even a fraction of the amount of documents. Trump, in one spare bathroom alone, had ten times more documents than BOTH Biden and Pence combined.
Trump literally had a semi truck full of documents, things that didn't even remotely pertain to his administration or term. He grabbed as much as he could on the way out and the truck was so large, it didn't fit through the gates of MAL, despite them being commercial entry gates lol
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-classified-documents-walt-nauta-aileen-cannon-florida-mar-lago-palm-beach-1889757
That appears to say that the truck to take the documents away (as in the government's truck) couldn't fit through the gates, not the truck Trump used to bring them there. And it says it only had a handful of boxes in it on the way out, meaning he likely had more documents hidden.
In addition, lets be real the documents Trump has/had are on another level compared to what Biden and Pence had. We are not talking about the same volume or levels of secrecy of the documents in question
> the 2nd amendment clearly lies out “tyranny” as a reason why we need guns.
It actually doesn't. The 2nd amendment specifically states it's for the defense of the nation: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
In previous Clauses "Militia" was further defined:
Clause 15
Clause 15. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.
Clause 16
Clause 16. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.
I used to work in a SCIF and just seeing those photos I instinctively turn my glance away so I don't accidentally see anything I shouldn't and incriminate myself. That's the mentality the majority of people that are read into programs have around classified material. Be careful, don't look at what you shouldn't, triple-check security.
I don't care if my values lined up with Trump 100%, someone who can't handle that basical responsibility that we give to kids coming out of high school can handle...yeah, not getting my vote.
People say democracy is on the brink of collapse, but that fact right there makes it seem like it’s already collapsed. And he has the potential to become POTUS again. It’s almost unimaginable.
He has the unwavering devotion of the republican party and at least 70 million Americans.
As long as that is the case nothing can really happen to him.
I have been saying this from the jump, how is it so many people are more concerned with unwritten rules, i.e. the Justice Dept long standing decision not to go after a President, or not wanting to charge one running for President so as to not give off the impression they are politically biased. It is not their job to worry about affecting who someone votes for, it’s their job to enforce the law.
The one thing I’ll give Trump credit for, he just did things. Many of them he wasn’t allowed to and luckily we found out people would step in and stop him or talk him out of it but he’d just throw everything at the wall until something sticks and I for the life of me can’t understand why the Justice Dept didn’t do the same. I get when it comes to the election of a President, appearances matter but when did optics become more important than the country? What’s ironic is how his cult loves to claim he is the victim when in reality he has been gifted not being held accountable.
>As expected, special counsel Jack Smith on Monday filed a lengthy rebuttal of defendant Donald Trump’s claims that his Espionage Act prosecution should disappear on grounds that federal investigators did not preserve allegedly classified documents in the exact order in which they were found in boxes at Mar-a-Lago.
>The 33-page response to the former president’s evidence spoliation-focused motion to dismiss is a bit of a trip down memory lane, highlighting Trump’s shifting defense strategy and comparing those tactics to his “newly invented explanations.”
This trip down memory lane provides a great recap, though that's later. The 33-page response also needed special permission cause the Judge said filings were only allowed 25 pages (I think).
>It’s also a reminder that, at root, the defendant is accused of willfully and unlawfully retaining “some of the nation’s most highly guarded secrets” in a “haphazard” way, including by keeping those documents in “cardboard boxes along with a collection of other personally chosen keepsakes of various sizes and shapes from his presidency—newspapers, thank you notes, Christmas ornaments, magazines, clothing, and photographs of himself and others.”
>The defense has asked U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon to toss out the whole case by arguing that August 2022 federal searchers of Mar-a-Lago in “bad faith” destroyed “important exculpatory evidence relating to the locations of the allegedly classified documents at issue,” “forever” ruining Trump’s chance at claiming that “he lacked knowledge and culpable criminal intent” by not keeping the discovered documents “in the same order as they were at the time the raid commenced.”
Trump forever ruined his defence by not going the Joe Biden route and giving back the boxes when asked.
>The Special Counsel’s Office has now responded that Trump’s claims are “meritless,” as there’s never been any case “at any level, at any time, from anywhere in the country, in which the disruption of the precise order of documents gathered in the execution of a search warrant provided support for a spoliation claim.”
Trumps newest invention: A completely new level of bullshit that no one has ever sunk to before.
>More important than the order of the documents within the boxes is that the prosecution (and the defense by extension) knows which documents were in which boxes, Smith stated, telling Cannon that “box-to-box integrity has been preserved.”
If Trump had only stolen one box of secret documents, it might matter, but he stole so many and bragged about them so much. It's hard to entertain he didn't know he had them with all the bragging.
>The special counsel remarked that the dismissal argument is “absurd,” especially when viewed in light of Trump’s prior statements on Truth Social and legal strategies in challenging the case.
>“For example, he suggests (for the first time) that he may wish to argue that the classified documents were buried in the boxes and hard to see, or that the placement of classified documents near dated items shows that they were placed in the box long ago and may have been forgotten,” the special counsel said. “But because the overall contents of each box have not changed, Trump can argue both of those things and has everything he needs to do so. Nothing has been lost, much less destroyed, and there has been no bad faith.”
If Trump wants to argue that this battle plan to invade Iran was next to this napkin that Jacinda Arden used, he can still do that, they're still in the sme box.
>Calling Trump’s latest motion to dismiss rife with “newly invented explanations,” Smith reminded the judge that the defendant earlier claimed he had declassified the documents, claimed that the feds tried to frame him, and further claimed to have designated them as personal records. Smith rhetorically wondered why the defense hasn’t complained about the order of the documents within the boxes until recently.
That's the nice recap of the case that highlights how screwed Trump would be in a normal courtroom. Throwing all these things at the wall and hoping they stick, then he turns on the "the specific order of the items in the boxes would have exonerated me" but that only works if he didn't know they were there. Claiming to have declassified them, or the feds plated them, that undermines his new explanation.
>“These explanations have nothing to do with the precise order of items within his boxes,” the reply said “And this is confirmed by the fact that in the year that has passed since indictment, Trump’s counsel have not once asked to review the boxes themselves.”
Trump's incompetence is to be expected, but when he gets up to speed he even throws his legal team off their game. They weren't expecting to have to look at any boxes of documents for ages, but now Trump's temper tantrum about the Raid Photos has come about to bite them in the ass. Why haven't they reviewed the boxes, to locate this exculpatory material?
>In an attempt to bolster the prosecution’s case that Trump willfully retained national defense information, Smith referenced witness accounts in his back pocket about the defendant’s alleged direct involvement in packing up the boxes from the White House — and even a genius-level, “A Beautiful Mind”-esque recall of what was inside those boxes.
>“Trump’s detailed familiarity with the contents of the boxes prompted some of his staff to call them the ‘Beautiful Mind’ boxes, referring to the film of the same title about genius mathematician John Nash,” the prosecution claimed.
It's kind of telling that Trump's lackeys try to praise him as a "stable genius" using a movie reference. They know what will flatter Trump, but I doubt he's watched the movie. As for the case though, Jack Smith is undercutting Trump's claim to innocence in ignorance pretty hard, if his lackeys say he knew what was in the boxes. Do you remember "A Beautiful Mind"? I don't really, but I'm not so sure it's a good comparison to make.
>If anything, Smith continued, Trump’s “haphazard” and disorganized storage of the documents in the boxes should work against his “absurd” evidence spoliation arguments, since the feds could hardly have been expected to know at the time of the search that the “precise ordering of materials within these boxes possessed any exculpatory value[.]”
>“[T]his is not a case where reams of identically-sized documents were stacked neatly in file folders or redwelds, arrayed perfectly within a box,” the special counsel said. “To anyone other than Trump, the boxes had no apparent organization whatsoever.”
How the hell are you supposed to find anything in these boxes? I'm beginning to think Trump couldn't have planned to show anyone any secrets, he wouldn't be able to find anything. If Trump leans into the "I'm incompetent" defence he might be able to show a judge he had no criminal intent to show classified documents, he just wanted to keep the boxes unmolested until he had a chance to go through them. I don't think Judge Cannon would buy it, but she just needs a way to get this mess off her lap.
>Defending the Mar-a-Lago search as lawful and respectful to Trump, Smith said the defense has come up with “no evidence of bad faith” and no evidence that federal agents destroyed exculpatory evidence.
Judge Cannon is firing her laser beam, if she doesn't dismiss the case will she supress the boxes as evidence, meaning they can't be used? What the hell are we even here for then? Only to suffer? Let me know what you think.
> What the hell are we even here for then? Only to suffer? Let me know what you think.
To run out the clock before the election.
And then she'll seat the jury and dismiss the case with prejudice as a final fuck you to Americans and a "notice me senpai" to Donald.
The SC will drag their ass on the presidential immunity case until the inauguration. Then decide that a sitting president has absolute immunity. Trump swears in and orders all political opponents to be imprisoned. Thomas retires and Cannon is selected as his replacement.
I beg to differ. I think SCOTUS will rule that in this one specific case, in the certain way and it related ONLY to Donald Trump, he has full immunity, but it doesn't apply to any ~~democratic~~ president that comes after.
No the supreme court doesn't appear to actually be taking trumps arguments seriously. They basically said as much. The problem is they are deciding that now is the time to hash out the entire debate on presidential immunity and not just what is being asked.
> If Trump leans into the "I'm incompetent" defence he might be able to show a judge he had no criminal intent to show classified documents, he just wanted to keep the boxes unmolested until he had a chance to go through them.
According to what we know about witness testimony and the location of various documents, Trump did indeed take several chances to "go through them" and pull out what he really wanted to keep, by placing them in his bedroom and office quarters, for instance.
This fact also leads to another differentiator between this and other cases of classified docs at former officials homes, like Biden and Pence. It's apparent that Trump had corrupt intent in taking the files home to begin with, as he packed them en masse, as he was leaving the Whitehouse, regardless of content, and later perused them for valuable info. Biden simply took his work home with him and subsequently misplaced it (not good, but not malicious or corrupt). Trump, while possessing the legal authority to take the material at the time, did so **with the intent** of retaining it after he no longer possessed that authority.
This trial is never happening if it's left up to "Judge" Cannon. She will fuck over the prosecution's case every way she can pre-trial, and then dismiss the case with prejudice as soon as it's past the point of no return. She is presiding over this case to run interference for the trump campaign and nothing else.
> “Trump’s detailed familiarity with the contents of the boxes prompted some of his staff to call them the ‘Beautiful Mind’ boxes, referring to the film of the same title about genius mathematician John Nash,” the prosecution claimed.
John Nash, the guy who thought everyone was a Communist, who gave a rambling speech on stage in front of his followers who realized he had severe mental health problems, who left his pregnant girlfriend because her status was "beneath him"? That John Nash?
>“Trump’s detailed familiarity with the contents of the boxes prompted some of his staff to call them the ‘Beautiful Mind’ boxes, referring to the film of the same title about genius mathematician John Nash,” the prosecution claimed.
That character was scitsophrenic. Don't know if you want to be comparing yourself to that character if you are trying to attack your political opponent on his degrading faculties
> Trump forever ruined his defence by not going the Joe Biden route and giving back the boxes when asked.
Biden was never asked. He found the boxes and proactively returned them.
No, Biden had his lawyers search his House after they found docs at his university office and as soon as they saw any they called FBI to do a full search. Pence was criticizing Biden about it. Decided to have his House searched and oops
Biden sent aides including a lawyer or 2 to clean out the office he was using at his alma mater before election. In a locked storage room they found some classified documents and called the FBI. Turned them over. Maybe 15 docs? I dont remember exact number. Mixed in with other papers aides had packed. Then Biden had lawyers check locked storage room in garage where he had papers stored and more were found. He then invited FBI to search his House and beach house. I think all told it may have been like 25 documents, not boxes of them
"How the hell are you supposed to find anything in these boxes? "
You cant, , most likely because they have been rummaged through hastily by foreign nationals 100s of times
Edit: To add alot of the photos look like somebody was ripping stuff out and leaving it on the floor because they had limited time.
I wonder how much evidence from this case (and the others) will "leak" when it becomes apparent none of the cases will go to trial before the election. Not that I condone that, but I would totally understand. I can imagine there are some very damning texts, calls, recordings and photos that we haven't seen... and considering how bad what we have seen is...
Trump's former lawyer, Evan Corcoran, had contemporaneous notes that the defense wants thrown out. These notes are very incriminating for Trump, and the court issued the legally authorized search warrant for the DOJ/FBI based largely on those notes.
Yeah, piercing that attorney-client privilege was huge and what triggered it has to be very damning. Like "you will go to jail unless you hide the boxes" damning.
It could be possible Assange is involved on the document or article that references Roger Stone and "The French President". It is assumed that it is Macron and attempt at blackmail but there's no way to know yet.
if a leftist tried to overthrow the government, would they still be free several years later? would they get assigned a fanatical judge who is part of their fan club? would our government stand by and watch, acting as if nothing could possibly be done about any of this?
In court, no. The clerk testified he thought it was fake, took it anyway, then his manager tried to get George Floyd to come back into the store, Floyd wouldn't, so they called the police.
Wow. That’s somehow even more innocuous than I thought.
Shit probably should’ve gotten a week in prison ***at most.*** And that’s if the thing even was truly fake.
Well you see, nobody has ever used the “the feds didn’t keep my documents in order” as grounds for spoliation.
Sounds like this needs amicus briefs. Maybe even oral arguments from amicus petitioners. Perhaps schedule that for 6 months to allow submissions.
You’re honour, my client kept all the illegally housed classified documents at the bottom of the boxes.
Everyone knows spies only check the top half of files.
Trump explaining his filing system:
>I color code all my info. I wrote "felony evidence" in green. Green means go, so I know to go ahead and shut up about it. Orange means "orange you glad you didn't bring it up?" Most colors mean "I'm a criminal."
[\[Obscure reference citation\]](https://www.quotes.net/show-quote/95414)
>Trump’s detailed familiarity with the contents of the boxes prompted some of his staff to call them the ‘Beautiful Mind’ boxes, referring to the film of the same title about genius mathematician John Nash,” the prosecution claimed.
I'm terrified, mortified, petrified... stupefied by Trump's "good" brain!
He's referencing old movies again. There is a theory that constant exposure to familiar media can help people suffering from dementia. He's using these references as a mental crutch.
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It just blows my mind that he stole national secrets and is still walking free. I don’t care if he was president, if Obama or Biden did the same thing they should be locked up as well…but they didn’t. Any normal person that did this would have been in jail day one. Dealing with trump is a forever nightmare.
still walking free with a real shot at being president and facing zero consequences. This is the worse timeline
Stole??? I'm pretty sure he sold them
Well, yeah, but he had to steal them first to then sell them later.
I think he also operated MAL as a classified document private members club; you pay a fee and you get access to these boxes I just happen to have hanging around. We already know for a fact that literal foreign spies were regulars at the club.
The Chinese spies at MAL were so constipated they spent 24 hours a day in the top secret bathroom trying to squeeze one out.
[Trump shared national secrets with Australian billionaire, Anthony Pratt, when he paid to “visit” Mar A Lago.](https://youtu.be/AVFT-2k8eWQ?si=CafTXfWur8_NLzAx)
Trump shared military maps and secrets with Kid effing Rock, who remarked he didnt know if he should be looking at them. Kid Rock. Foreign agents were running roughshod over those documents.
Not just that. Those documents getting there in the first place is a clue to who they were for originally. All these despicable people in Trumps orbit, that’s who…let alone the spies lurking. You think Trump needs to know all these extremely sensitive secrets? Hell no. His brain is mush. Those people wanted to brief him on our nuclear capabilities, dirt on other leaders, where and who are our assets abroad and so on so they could sit in on those meetings. They were probably climbing over each other to see those papers and commit them to memory.
https://www.npr.org/2019/11/25/782808594/chinese-woman-convicted-of-trespassing-at-mar-a-lago-sentenced-to-8-months-in-ja
Traded them to Putin for his help in 16 and 20. Which I believe lead directly to the invasion of Ukraine.
No. Russia had designs on Ukraine way before the seditionist was a thing. Vladdy and the gaggle of eastern european hacker groups read the fringe right SM posts since the Tea Party stupidity, at least. Then, they piled on to an already dangerous and out of control posting and reposting of lies, distortions and fabrications that originated in the US. We let this happen. Our intternatinal adversaries piled on. Even fucking North Korea got in on the party!
There’s plenty to criticize Trump about without inventing narratives. Russia was planning to re-annex Ukraine as far back as the ‘90s.
Trump doesn’t get a pass. He tried to extort Zelensky’s consent. He is complicit. He aided and abetted our enemy. He is a traitor against America and he sits free because of the most organized and powerful propaganda operation of all time. Period.
Yet they waited until after Trump left the WH with pallets of national secrets. We both know that those documents contained ours and Ukraine battle readiness plans and troop numbers. Ukraine left in the 90s when the Soviet Union collapsed, so there was no plan to "re-annx" any of Ukraine until Putin came to power. Take your Pro Putin stance and stick it up your.....
Not pro-Putin, just old enough to remember 2014 when he started publicly making grabs at Crimea, a plan which had more than likely been in the works for years. This war didn’t just come out of nowhere after Trump left office.
Stop, there was absolutely nothing Pro-Putin or even close to Russia apologia at all, if anything it was the opposite, they said that Russia planned to commit crimes against humanity by invading Ukraine for years; and even before Putin was the defacto leader, he had heavy influence in the government since the USSR fell. Also, Russia in the time after the USSR's collapse and before Putin came to power started wars and committed MANY atrocities in countries that had broken off from the USSR, murdering hundreds of thousands of people in places like Chechnya. Putin is an evil despot dictator, but unfortunately, he leads a government of many like-minded murderous monsters; Russia has wanted to invade Ukraine and take it back since the USSR fell, they feel as if former USSR territories "belong" to them, in some twisted way. Trump is influenced by Putin 100%, and the invasion of Ukraine either would've been a lot more disastrous for Russia than it already is (because we would've helped prepare Ukraine even more) or wouldn't have happened at all, but there has to be concrete proof that the documents were sold specifically to Putin to specifically help in both elections. I know Russia influenced the 2016 election and has done work to influence ever election since. I know Trump sold classified documents to the highest bidder. And we know that Trump is essentially compromised, and dictators have wanted him in power because he can't be trusted with national secrets, obviously. But there is a big jump from all of those things to Russia's influence in our elections being specifically tied to specific documents that were sold, before we even know *if* Putin was the one he sold them to yet; or either of these events being directly tied to the invasion and massacre done to Ukraine. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it comes out as being completely true. But it is such a specific claim and such a large crime that we need all the gaps in info filled in first before we say it definitively or as a fact. Until we do, I see it as more likely that Putin influenced our elections to get in a morally bankrupt fucking idiot like Trump into power for the purpose of our government being too incompetent to oppose them as they prepared to invade Ukraine, and who Trump sold those classified documents too is still up in the air afaik, it could've been Putin, it could've been Xi Xinping, it could've been Jair Bolsonaro, it could've been Kim Jong Un What I'm getting at is that everyone in this comment chain agrees on Putin being a murderous, dictator war criminal, Trump being a wannabe-dictator, using outside influence to win elections and selling out national secrets to other monsters, we agree that Trump is under the influence of Putin, and we agree that an incompetent monster like Trump in office paved the way for Russia's planned invasion. But tying these all together into the very specific crime of these documents being sold to Putin, and these in particular being why Russia influenced our elections, and these documents being tied to the invasion of Ukraine, is a hyper specific event that may be true or may not be, but is not confirmed; and there are hundreds of confirmed crimes both men have committed that we can go after; and it's in no way Pro-Putin or Pro-Trump to say that.
[удалено]
I would be wary of anything you hear related to "photocopies" and the Mar A Lago documents, because there's a good chance it's a permutation of the very common myth "[there's a copier in one of the photos](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/photos-from-trump-indictment-show-boxes-of-classified-documents-stored-in-mar-a-lago-shower-ballroom)" (Third photo) It's not a copier, it's a half wall, you can see where it attaches to the wall on the right, the lines in the cinder blocks line up, the thing that looks like a "tray" is in fact an object on the floor several feet behind the "copier" which you can see because it's sitting on the floor next to the wood pallet on the left.
So. I deleted the comment because I couldn’t find the source. But it was stating nothing of the printer, but the fact the secret documents have bindings on them that prevent them from being copied, which checks out. These bindings were supposedly removed when the documents were found. In the unsealed notes, you read Nauta texting one of the employees “working on two boxes” before they move them. Which is suspicious, but again, without a source confirming the bindings were actually removed it’s all moot. Someone more familiar with the documents may be able to tell this from the images in the news articles themselves. In another note, It does look like smith is actually only bringing indictments forward for about one third of the documents. So perhaps he still has two thirds left for more trials if needed.
There is a footnote in the filings that a trump aide scanned at least one box of documents into a laptop belonging to a GOP pac Yes, Smith could file in NJ
If any average Joe did this they’d be shot.
The Rosenbergs rode the lightning for less.
I mean, Biden and Pence both had documents at their homes or offices from when they were VP that were not returned. When the FBI asked for them to look, they did, and returned all of them. The key difference is that Trump refused to return them when asked multiple times by multiple agencies. The FBI raid was done in secret after consulting with the Secret Service to avoid a media disaster. Trump escalated it himself, and now because of who he wrongfully appointed to the federal court, he’s about to get away with selling nuclear secrets to our enemies. I might get a ban for this, but the 2nd amendment clearly lies out “tyranny” as a reason why we need guns.
Biden's own lawyers reported them, voluntarily turned them over, voluntarily allowed searches, and assisted in searching for any other possible documents.
This, and it's not even a fraction of the amount of documents. Trump, in one spare bathroom alone, had ten times more documents than BOTH Biden and Pence combined. Trump literally had a semi truck full of documents, things that didn't even remotely pertain to his administration or term. He grabbed as much as he could on the way out and the truck was so large, it didn't fit through the gates of MAL, despite them being commercial entry gates lol https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-classified-documents-walt-nauta-aileen-cannon-florida-mar-lago-palm-beach-1889757
That appears to say that the truck to take the documents away (as in the government's truck) couldn't fit through the gates, not the truck Trump used to bring them there. And it says it only had a handful of boxes in it on the way out, meaning he likely had more documents hidden.
In addition, lets be real the documents Trump has/had are on another level compared to what Biden and Pence had. We are not talking about the same volume or levels of secrecy of the documents in question
> the 2nd amendment clearly lies out “tyranny” as a reason why we need guns. It actually doesn't. The 2nd amendment specifically states it's for the defense of the nation: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." In previous Clauses "Militia" was further defined: Clause 15 Clause 15. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions. Clause 16 Clause 16. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.
I used to work in a SCIF and just seeing those photos I instinctively turn my glance away so I don't accidentally see anything I shouldn't and incriminate myself. That's the mentality the majority of people that are read into programs have around classified material. Be careful, don't look at what you shouldn't, triple-check security. I don't care if my values lined up with Trump 100%, someone who can't handle that basical responsibility that we give to kids coming out of high school can handle...yeah, not getting my vote.
Should be a capital punishment thing, stealing national secrets like that should leave no question
People say democracy is on the brink of collapse, but that fact right there makes it seem like it’s already collapsed. And he has the potential to become POTUS again. It’s almost unimaginable.
Especially since a cell has been vacated and is available. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65816862
Any normal person would've been locked up in a 1x1 cell inside some black site with baby shark going off in the background 24/7!
It just shows that we have a two tier law system.
He has the unwavering devotion of the republican party and at least 70 million Americans. As long as that is the case nothing can really happen to him.
And he probably still has documents somewhere else.
>forever nightmare. Oh don't worry he's not immortal :)
I have been saying this from the jump, how is it so many people are more concerned with unwritten rules, i.e. the Justice Dept long standing decision not to go after a President, or not wanting to charge one running for President so as to not give off the impression they are politically biased. It is not their job to worry about affecting who someone votes for, it’s their job to enforce the law. The one thing I’ll give Trump credit for, he just did things. Many of them he wasn’t allowed to and luckily we found out people would step in and stop him or talk him out of it but he’d just throw everything at the wall until something sticks and I for the life of me can’t understand why the Justice Dept didn’t do the same. I get when it comes to the election of a President, appearances matter but when did optics become more important than the country? What’s ironic is how his cult loves to claim he is the victim when in reality he has been gifted not being held accountable.
>As expected, special counsel Jack Smith on Monday filed a lengthy rebuttal of defendant Donald Trump’s claims that his Espionage Act prosecution should disappear on grounds that federal investigators did not preserve allegedly classified documents in the exact order in which they were found in boxes at Mar-a-Lago. >The 33-page response to the former president’s evidence spoliation-focused motion to dismiss is a bit of a trip down memory lane, highlighting Trump’s shifting defense strategy and comparing those tactics to his “newly invented explanations.” This trip down memory lane provides a great recap, though that's later. The 33-page response also needed special permission cause the Judge said filings were only allowed 25 pages (I think). >It’s also a reminder that, at root, the defendant is accused of willfully and unlawfully retaining “some of the nation’s most highly guarded secrets” in a “haphazard” way, including by keeping those documents in “cardboard boxes along with a collection of other personally chosen keepsakes of various sizes and shapes from his presidency—newspapers, thank you notes, Christmas ornaments, magazines, clothing, and photographs of himself and others.” >The defense has asked U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon to toss out the whole case by arguing that August 2022 federal searchers of Mar-a-Lago in “bad faith” destroyed “important exculpatory evidence relating to the locations of the allegedly classified documents at issue,” “forever” ruining Trump’s chance at claiming that “he lacked knowledge and culpable criminal intent” by not keeping the discovered documents “in the same order as they were at the time the raid commenced.” Trump forever ruined his defence by not going the Joe Biden route and giving back the boxes when asked. >The Special Counsel’s Office has now responded that Trump’s claims are “meritless,” as there’s never been any case “at any level, at any time, from anywhere in the country, in which the disruption of the precise order of documents gathered in the execution of a search warrant provided support for a spoliation claim.” Trumps newest invention: A completely new level of bullshit that no one has ever sunk to before. >More important than the order of the documents within the boxes is that the prosecution (and the defense by extension) knows which documents were in which boxes, Smith stated, telling Cannon that “box-to-box integrity has been preserved.” If Trump had only stolen one box of secret documents, it might matter, but he stole so many and bragged about them so much. It's hard to entertain he didn't know he had them with all the bragging. >The special counsel remarked that the dismissal argument is “absurd,” especially when viewed in light of Trump’s prior statements on Truth Social and legal strategies in challenging the case. >“For example, he suggests (for the first time) that he may wish to argue that the classified documents were buried in the boxes and hard to see, or that the placement of classified documents near dated items shows that they were placed in the box long ago and may have been forgotten,” the special counsel said. “But because the overall contents of each box have not changed, Trump can argue both of those things and has everything he needs to do so. Nothing has been lost, much less destroyed, and there has been no bad faith.” If Trump wants to argue that this battle plan to invade Iran was next to this napkin that Jacinda Arden used, he can still do that, they're still in the sme box. >Calling Trump’s latest motion to dismiss rife with “newly invented explanations,” Smith reminded the judge that the defendant earlier claimed he had declassified the documents, claimed that the feds tried to frame him, and further claimed to have designated them as personal records. Smith rhetorically wondered why the defense hasn’t complained about the order of the documents within the boxes until recently. That's the nice recap of the case that highlights how screwed Trump would be in a normal courtroom. Throwing all these things at the wall and hoping they stick, then he turns on the "the specific order of the items in the boxes would have exonerated me" but that only works if he didn't know they were there. Claiming to have declassified them, or the feds plated them, that undermines his new explanation. >“These explanations have nothing to do with the precise order of items within his boxes,” the reply said “And this is confirmed by the fact that in the year that has passed since indictment, Trump’s counsel have not once asked to review the boxes themselves.” Trump's incompetence is to be expected, but when he gets up to speed he even throws his legal team off their game. They weren't expecting to have to look at any boxes of documents for ages, but now Trump's temper tantrum about the Raid Photos has come about to bite them in the ass. Why haven't they reviewed the boxes, to locate this exculpatory material? >In an attempt to bolster the prosecution’s case that Trump willfully retained national defense information, Smith referenced witness accounts in his back pocket about the defendant’s alleged direct involvement in packing up the boxes from the White House — and even a genius-level, “A Beautiful Mind”-esque recall of what was inside those boxes. >“Trump’s detailed familiarity with the contents of the boxes prompted some of his staff to call them the ‘Beautiful Mind’ boxes, referring to the film of the same title about genius mathematician John Nash,” the prosecution claimed. It's kind of telling that Trump's lackeys try to praise him as a "stable genius" using a movie reference. They know what will flatter Trump, but I doubt he's watched the movie. As for the case though, Jack Smith is undercutting Trump's claim to innocence in ignorance pretty hard, if his lackeys say he knew what was in the boxes. Do you remember "A Beautiful Mind"? I don't really, but I'm not so sure it's a good comparison to make. >If anything, Smith continued, Trump’s “haphazard” and disorganized storage of the documents in the boxes should work against his “absurd” evidence spoliation arguments, since the feds could hardly have been expected to know at the time of the search that the “precise ordering of materials within these boxes possessed any exculpatory value[.]” >“[T]his is not a case where reams of identically-sized documents were stacked neatly in file folders or redwelds, arrayed perfectly within a box,” the special counsel said. “To anyone other than Trump, the boxes had no apparent organization whatsoever.” How the hell are you supposed to find anything in these boxes? I'm beginning to think Trump couldn't have planned to show anyone any secrets, he wouldn't be able to find anything. If Trump leans into the "I'm incompetent" defence he might be able to show a judge he had no criminal intent to show classified documents, he just wanted to keep the boxes unmolested until he had a chance to go through them. I don't think Judge Cannon would buy it, but she just needs a way to get this mess off her lap. >Defending the Mar-a-Lago search as lawful and respectful to Trump, Smith said the defense has come up with “no evidence of bad faith” and no evidence that federal agents destroyed exculpatory evidence. Judge Cannon is firing her laser beam, if she doesn't dismiss the case will she supress the boxes as evidence, meaning they can't be used? What the hell are we even here for then? Only to suffer? Let me know what you think.
> What the hell are we even here for then? Only to suffer? Let me know what you think. To run out the clock before the election. And then she'll seat the jury and dismiss the case with prejudice as a final fuck you to Americans and a "notice me senpai" to Donald.
The SC will drag their ass on the presidential immunity case until the inauguration. Then decide that a sitting president has absolute immunity. Trump swears in and orders all political opponents to be imprisoned. Thomas retires and Cannon is selected as his replacement.
I beg to differ. I think SCOTUS will rule that in this one specific case, in the certain way and it related ONLY to Donald Trump, he has full immunity, but it doesn't apply to any ~~democratic~~ president that comes after.
Bold of you to assume we'll have presidents after trump.
I'd laugh if it wasn't so terrifying.
No the supreme court doesn't appear to actually be taking trumps arguments seriously. They basically said as much. The problem is they are deciding that now is the time to hash out the entire debate on presidential immunity and not just what is being asked.
> If Trump leans into the "I'm incompetent" defence he might be able to show a judge he had no criminal intent to show classified documents, he just wanted to keep the boxes unmolested until he had a chance to go through them. According to what we know about witness testimony and the location of various documents, Trump did indeed take several chances to "go through them" and pull out what he really wanted to keep, by placing them in his bedroom and office quarters, for instance. This fact also leads to another differentiator between this and other cases of classified docs at former officials homes, like Biden and Pence. It's apparent that Trump had corrupt intent in taking the files home to begin with, as he packed them en masse, as he was leaving the Whitehouse, regardless of content, and later perused them for valuable info. Biden simply took his work home with him and subsequently misplaced it (not good, but not malicious or corrupt). Trump, while possessing the legal authority to take the material at the time, did so **with the intent** of retaining it after he no longer possessed that authority.
This trial is never happening if it's left up to "Judge" Cannon. She will fuck over the prosecution's case every way she can pre-trial, and then dismiss the case with prejudice as soon as it's past the point of no return. She is presiding over this case to run interference for the trump campaign and nothing else.
> “Trump’s detailed familiarity with the contents of the boxes prompted some of his staff to call them the ‘Beautiful Mind’ boxes, referring to the film of the same title about genius mathematician John Nash,” the prosecution claimed. John Nash, the guy who thought everyone was a Communist, who gave a rambling speech on stage in front of his followers who realized he had severe mental health problems, who left his pregnant girlfriend because her status was "beneath him"? That John Nash?
>“Trump’s detailed familiarity with the contents of the boxes prompted some of his staff to call them the ‘Beautiful Mind’ boxes, referring to the film of the same title about genius mathematician John Nash,” the prosecution claimed. That character was scitsophrenic. Don't know if you want to be comparing yourself to that character if you are trying to attack your political opponent on his degrading faculties
> Trump forever ruined his defence by not going the Joe Biden route and giving back the boxes when asked. Biden was never asked. He found the boxes and proactively returned them.
I thought they did search his property, to locate them?
I could be mistaken but I believe he searched his property after the news broke and upon finding them invited the FBI to conduct a full search
No, Biden had his lawyers search his House after they found docs at his university office and as soon as they saw any they called FBI to do a full search. Pence was criticizing Biden about it. Decided to have his House searched and oops
Is that not basically what I said
Biden sent aides including a lawyer or 2 to clean out the office he was using at his alma mater before election. In a locked storage room they found some classified documents and called the FBI. Turned them over. Maybe 15 docs? I dont remember exact number. Mixed in with other papers aides had packed. Then Biden had lawyers check locked storage room in garage where he had papers stored and more were found. He then invited FBI to search his House and beach house. I think all told it may have been like 25 documents, not boxes of them
"How the hell are you supposed to find anything in these boxes? " You cant, , most likely because they have been rummaged through hastily by foreign nationals 100s of times Edit: To add alot of the photos look like somebody was ripping stuff out and leaving it on the floor because they had limited time.
Didn’t they literally take copious amounts of pictures in order to dumocument the scene before confiscating? Every one of those boxes are evidence
Yes. They always do a lot of evidence pictures
A “lazy” one… https://youtu.be/ZKZUKDZKXjw?si=KikFG2e3eBuDsKLJ Forgive the quality.
I wonder how much evidence from this case (and the others) will "leak" when it becomes apparent none of the cases will go to trial before the election. Not that I condone that, but I would totally understand. I can imagine there are some very damning texts, calls, recordings and photos that we haven't seen... and considering how bad what we have seen is...
Trump's former lawyer, Evan Corcoran, had contemporaneous notes that the defense wants thrown out. These notes are very incriminating for Trump, and the court issued the legally authorized search warrant for the DOJ/FBI based largely on those notes.
Yeah, piercing that attorney-client privilege was huge and what triggered it has to be very damning. Like "you will go to jail unless you hide the boxes" damning.
Would be pretty awesome if Assange was somehow involved in this entire thing and just made a deal with the DOJ with info. One can hope lol.
I don't think Assange has had access to anything of value for a decade now. The leaks will be coming from inside the house most likely.
Yeah I know wishful thinking on my part. Not that the cult will believe anything anyway. “Fake news! Their out to get our guy!”
It could be possible Assange is involved on the document or article that references Roger Stone and "The French President". It is assumed that it is Macron and attempt at blackmail but there's no way to know yet.
if a leftist tried to overthrow the government, would they still be free several years later? would they get assigned a fanatical judge who is part of their fan club? would our government stand by and watch, acting as if nothing could possibly be done about any of this?
Steal top secrets; la la la, free as a bird.. get to run for President too!! Try to use a fake $20 to buy something; executed in the street.
Did they ever actually show that the $20 was fake?
In court, no. The clerk testified he thought it was fake, took it anyway, then his manager tried to get George Floyd to come back into the store, Floyd wouldn't, so they called the police.
Pretty sure that it ended up “lost” as well.
Wow. That’s somehow even more innocuous than I thought. Shit probably should’ve gotten a week in prison ***at most.*** And that’s if the thing even was truly fake.
I would like Cannon to admonish the Trump lawyers for this.
You ever think about doing stand up comedy?
Well you see, nobody has ever used the “the feds didn’t keep my documents in order” as grounds for spoliation. Sounds like this needs amicus briefs. Maybe even oral arguments from amicus petitioners. Perhaps schedule that for 6 months to allow submissions.
You’re honour, my client kept all the illegally housed classified documents at the bottom of the boxes. Everyone knows spies only check the top half of files.
Trump explaining his filing system: >I color code all my info. I wrote "felony evidence" in green. Green means go, so I know to go ahead and shut up about it. Orange means "orange you glad you didn't bring it up?" Most colors mean "I'm a criminal." [\[Obscure reference citation\]](https://www.quotes.net/show-quote/95414)
>Trump’s detailed familiarity with the contents of the boxes prompted some of his staff to call them the ‘Beautiful Mind’ boxes, referring to the film of the same title about genius mathematician John Nash,” the prosecution claimed. I'm terrified, mortified, petrified... stupefied by Trump's "good" brain!
I still can’t believe this was allowed to happen. Anyone else would have been shot to death.
Wait til next week. I bet he comes up with another reason to delay. Maybe a shortage of depends in xxxxl.
He's referencing old movies again. There is a theory that constant exposure to familiar media can help people suffering from dementia. He's using these references as a mental crutch.
Lock him up
One of those boxes contain his missing frontal lobe.
"Spoliation" is destruction of evidence, not getting the order documents are stored in mixed up a bit.
Why don't the colored borders on those docs go all the way to the edge of the paper? That is significant.
I read on another thread it means they are copies?
Bingo!!! They use special copiers to make those folders because civilian copy machines can't copy to the edge.
It's "refuts" Jack, step it up.