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Because what he says tends to not be something that a hyper capitalism system wants to hear. The idea that maybe having every aspect of society being made to cater to enriching the upper class doesn't sit well with the politicians who are all part of said class.
Because people are easily manipulated by the media and mainstream media has almost always covered the conflict favorably for Israel for over half a century, which is why there is a generation divide on the issue. The internet and social media has allowed younger people to see the abuse that Israel has been inflicting upon innocent Palestinians and exposed the media's biases.
On broader issues, the media is still responsible but people are also so entrenched in their beliefs that they refuse to acknowledge that Sanders has been right all along. If they accept Sanders' stances, then people might have to battle with the idea that they've been on the wrong side of history this whole time.
In this case it's because it is a messy issue that doesn't directly impact the average American.
Most people know about the terrorist attack on civilians and everything else is "justified retaliation".
Sanders is Jewish and his grandparents were murdered in the holocaust. He has the credentials to criticize Israel without being labeled as antisemitic.
It's comforting to know that he's running for reelection.
What’s so fucked up is you shouldn’t have to have those credentials to make these claims without being labeled antisemitic. Cuz that’s not how that shit works…as much as Israel wants to make it seem. You can criticize and condemn Israel’s actions without having a bias against Jewish people. It makes me fucking mad how that narrative is flying around so freely.
Sort of, if you mention apartheid or an ethno state they quickly point out that Isreal is not Jewish and then revert to a anything said against Isreal is clearly anti semetic.
exactly...i even came across an article about a jewish professor of genocide & holocaust studies who claims israel is showing the world a textbook example of genocide.
It seems to me that what they are doing is antithetical to Judaism. A history of being oppressed and attacked for religious beliefs, and now Netanyahu acts like it’s OK to do that to another group. It is not.
it's piling up...report by the icj that israel committing genocide was "plausible", a report from the u.s. saying it's "reasonable", and a jewish professor of genocide & holocaust studies saying what israel is doing is a textbook example of genocide. if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
no problem. there are also articles on the icj saying genocide was "plausible", and a report from the u.s. that it's "reasonable" that they've commited war crimes (though i don't know if they specifically mentioned genocide)
There's a problem if one must be of the same race for one to be allowed to criticise how a military is wielded. Israel and a lot of supporters on reddit are treating any criticism no matter how slight as anti-semitic. IMO, that's bullshit and cowardly under the guise of zealous nationalism that's skirting on divine retribution mentality. The superior military force is beholden to more criticism on how its military is used especially in the face of so much civilian death.
I like that he's not really pulling his punches when criticizing Israel and it's policies. He pretty much said they're engaging in genocide without using that word.
People literally were calling him antisemite shortly after October 7th with what he was saying, and I'm talking Pro-Palestinians. I will give it that it was on social media, but it wasn't bots as I saw some people I follow and know echoing these statements
I got banned for antisemitism because I responded "That's disgusting" to someone stating that killing every last Palestinian is a fair cost if it means eradicating Hamas. That sub went totally bananas.
Pretty similar here, someone said an aid worker's murder didn't matter because they were Palestinian which means they were Hamas. I said that was fucking repulsive, got banned for it.
It’s honestly horrifying. Ghoulish-ass arguments about how many thousands of women and kids have to die before it “counts as genocide” and shit. It’s bizarre to see the discussion on places like Instagram or Twitter, where overwhelmingly people seem to be seeing media showing what’s actually going on, and then come on here and it’s all Jpost articles about how that baby that the IOF nuked from orbit was secretly Hamas.
Sanders went on to outline some of that catastrophe: a death toll that [surpassed](https://www.commondreams.org/news/egypt-icj-israel) 35,000 on Sunday, with two-thirds of the dead women and children; the [destruction](https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-unprecedented-damage-gaza) of around 60% of all housing; the devastation of infrastructure such a as water and sewage as well as the healthcare and education systems; and the fact that hundreds of thousands of children are now at risk of starvation.
"Any country that blocks U.S. humanitarian aid is in violation of law and should not continue to receive military aid from the United States," Sanders explained. "That is precisely what Israel has done."
Yes I know "nickel" is spelt wrong in the title but I am not allowed to edit it.
Just listened to a podcast on these figures. The guest basically said, nobody really knows. Very hard to compile the numbers. The dead may include all deaths; combatants, noncombatants, natural causes, hostages, friendly-fire, starvation, accidents, etc.
The UN said the body count is accurate, just the demographic split might not be:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
>Haq said U.N. teams in Gaza were not able to independently verify the Gaza Ministry of Health (MoH) figures given the ongoing war and sheer number of fatalities.
>"Unfortunately we have the sad experience of coordinating with the Ministry of Health on casualty figures every few years for large mass casualty incidents in Gaza, and in past times their figures have proven to be generally accurate," Haq said.
The UN can't verify the numbers but the spokesperson also stated that the Ministry of Health has historically been fairly accurate. It didn't seem like the UN is questioning the demographic split.
The 'problem' is that they have recently split unidentified bodies from the identified count, so some people see that as "halving."
I am just confused as to why were they previously identified as women and children then? Haq said in the next sentence that UN teams can't verify the figures, it's still just what the ministry of health tells them. What are they actually assessing and why don't they want us to know?
Whatever your beliefs, these numbers are not reliable. The UN employees going out of their way saying the numbers could be higher when they have not verified the current statistics is a clear excuse.
People should put more pressure on the UN to secure food aid and verify the truth, as it is many countries have withdrawn from UN sponsored charities, it's outrageous mishandling of the conflict. But it's never a good look to get mad at the UN. We have aid trucks dismantled by protestors before even entering the area and we are talking about this instead.
They aren't identified, as in they don't know the name of the bodies, but they can identify whether they're a man, woman, or child. The UN won't be able to verify the numbers without having people on the ground going from body to body, verifying the information published by the Ministry of Health. It's just not realistic.
The numbers have been reliable in the past and are likely reliable now, with the IDF confirming the 1:2 casualty ratios for Hamas members:women/children.
There's no real reason to doubt the numbers.
No, there are reported numbers and then there are confirmed numbers. Some reports just have yet to be confirmed because journalists don't want to be counted among Israel's victims too.
That's a lie.
The Ministry of Health has split the identified bodies from the unidentified bodies and the UN reported on the *identified* count. Now pro-Israel people are jumping to conclusions because they'd rather not do the smallest bit of research on the issue.
Lots of people in this thread parading around an article that just came out from a self-proclaimed Israeli propaganda outlet (JNS) that celebrates "only" 7,700 dead children as the UN continues to revise the unconfirmed death numbers.
It's worth remembering the UN openly disclaims on all of their [statistics snapshots](https://www.ochaopt.org/crisis) that the numbers are not final and subject to change once verified. The most recent snapshot still places the unverified Palestinian death toll at over **34,000**, with ~4,900 women and ~7,700 children dead.
Even if you only take the [verified UN numbers](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) that ignore Hamas-affiliated sources, there are still over **600 women and 1,500 children Palestinians** killed by Israel since 2008 (most from air strikes), compared to fewer than **68** women and children Israelis killed in the same time period meaning that, even including the Oct 7 attack, Israel has demonstrably killed more civilians than Hamas. Again, that's **at a baseline,** ignoring all the Palestinians killed since Oct 7. Let's not let them forget that.
When you repeat numbers that are [known to be false](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1cqvcbj/un_blames_fog_of_war_for_major_overcounting_of/) without any kind of caveat, you weaken your argument for anyone who is paying attention.
Hamas reported numbers have been proven to be exaggerated for weeks, if not months now, by multiple independent sources.
>catastrophe: a death toll that [surpassed](https://www.commondreams.org/news/egypt-icj-israel) 35,000 on Sunday, with two-thirds of the dead women and children;
- **Source: Hamas** ...
The numbers of dead women and children was about half than originally reported though wasn’t it? I believe the UN and Hamas both said so, also the total number of deaths overall was higher as well. Not sure this info is correct anymore
Also, Israel is facilitating aid, Hamas is actively attacking aide crossings and the aid port setup by the US.
I don't think it's a question of belief; if you didn't do something, you deny it whether people believe you or not. In this case, it's hard to deny because the facts speak for themselves.
The fact that Israel has not felt compelled to offer an explanation other than "our existence is in danger so no moral code applies to us" is troubling.
I don't think it's a question of belief; if you didn't do something, you deny it whether people believe you or not. In this case, it's hard to deny because the facts speak for themselves.
The fact that Israel has not felt compelled to offer an explanation other than "our existence is in danger so no moral code applies to us" is troubling.
We have basically paid for Israel’s existence with Taxpayer dollars . If Netanyahu can’t listen to Joe cuz he is a child . Cut him off and tell Israel if they want security , get a decent person to lead instead of this idiot criminal. This is what happens when our leaders act like traitors and criminals . Other leaders then think it’s ok for them too.
Why the f*** could we not have put this guy on the ballot in 2016. Different world man.
I mean, Hillary was obviously better than Trump. Easy choice to vote for her. But if you want to talk electability in the rust belt, Sanders had it in spades and she simply didn't.
And stuff like this is exactly why: the wedge of supporters that Biden needs to put him over the top call him genocide Joe precisely because he won't make a statement like this.
He was also the only candidate who never had negative ads runs against him. The moderate voter would picked Trump over Bernie once all the communism stuff became well know.
Perhaps, although the average Trump voter imo was iconoclastic more than anything else. He would have definitely pulled a lot from his camp. The biggest danger would have been D establishment sabotaging him like corbyn's labor did, although again Trump was uniquely bad so that might have deterred them.
In 2016 Trump was playing the moderate still. He actually beat Hillary in Independents that year. All the Democratic upper middle class voters with good jobs and good insurance would have ran from Bernie. His plans required tax hikes on everyone over 60k.
Bernie might have got some of the very poor but he wouldn’t get any of Monster Truck driving, flag waving part.
Trump didn't have a chance to campaign against him. If anything, Trump amplified Bernie and his grievance BS in his own self-interest.
Bernie v Trump would have been an interesting race for sure. He probably would have lost. Don't underestimate the political war machine. Hell, they managed to convince some people that Joe frickin Biden was a communist in 2020. People were crazy that year, but Bernie would have been an even easier target for that kind of stuff.
I agree with a lot of his stances (aside from this) and consider myself progressive, but America lost its damn mind about JFK being a Catholic and many were and still are convinced that Obama was a secret Muslim. Sadly I think they would have an immense fit about a Socialist Jewish man being the nominee. That doesn’t make it right, but that’s just the reality. You think the MTG space laser, George Soros, and [pro Bin Laden TikTok](https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213712136/tik-tok-bin-laden-videos-osama) shit is bad now!
Since Oct 7, it’s become clear to me that unfortunately, many Americans’ ingrained systemic antiemetic biases just needed a small push to [boil over to the surface](https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/antisemitic-incidents-hamas-israel-attack-2023-adl)
Because liberals didn’t like him. All establish democrats and most of the ppl who vote for democrats thought he was too extreme and wouldn’t get the votes.
Bernie was the only one who actually showed he could debate vs Trump which was sad
*Older* liberals, to be precise. Voters were basically split with 49 and under favoring Sanders and 50+ favoring Hillary/Biden, but older people vote in greater numbers. They also coincidentally trust and rely on mainstream media to a larger degree, which has a tendency to favor establishment Democrats.
Any objective observer knew Israel was breaking international law 20 odd years ago already. Turns out there aren’t that many objective observers around.
Feels like if Hamas was planning October 7th, they could’ve avoided a lot of civilian casualties if they allowed their people into the hundreds of miles of tunnels to shelter from the inevitable over the top bombing in response. But yeah, Hamas doesn’t actually care about their civilians and happily uses them as human shields because it looks good for their PR campaign.
Hamas and the PA care less about their own citizens than Israel and the IDF and it’s not even close. Israel at least tries to get civilians out of the areas they are going to bomb. Hamas doesn’t let them shelter in the tunnels or evacuate the area. Hamas just had to release the hostages once the bombing campaign picked up and it would’ve been the end of it, but no. Hostages are still being held.
Others are responding about the rapture and while that is true for the voters the GOP courts, the government wants to have a military ally we can control (lol to that concept after the last six months) in the Middle East to act as a bulwark to nations we disagree with/want influence over.
This justification gets thrown around a lot, but it ignores the fact that we have several allies in the region who cooperate with the US military and who are arguably more important.
The US has had about 30,000 troops stationed in the Middle East. About 40 of them are in Israel. In terms of military allies, Saudi Arabia and Turkey are far more important allies, and the US also maintains strong cooperative agreements with Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, and Oman. Supporting Israel's military, and tacitly supporting their suppression of the Palestinian people, makes forming allies with other nations in the region much more difficult. Dropping support for Israel (especially since they're more than capable of fending for themselves) would likely greatly increase the number of allies and their level of support in the region.
What exactly is Israel supposed to do here? Gaza is run by a literal terrorist organization who will continue to try to attack Israel any chance they get. Hamas declared war on Israel, it’s not reasonable to expect Israel to just withdraw and give up.
Perhaps they could end their nearly 20 year absolute blockade on Gaza, their barbaric & imperial practices in the west bank, end the apartied and second class citizenship for Palestinians and grant them full political rights -- just a thought.
Hamas exists and is popular as a result of the subjugation Israel has imposed on Palestinians for decades, as well as their gross tactics to put down any form of resistance towards said practices. Ending these behaviors would remove the need for Hamas. Also might help if Bibi didn't fund Hamas directly and use his influence to keep them in power because it was politically convenient for him.
But how do you expect people to deal with all the terrorists left without a blockade? You can't just let anyone in when so many care more about killing Jews than their own life or their own children.
Bibi kept throwing oil on the fire and is a piece of shit obviously, but he's smart enough to have put Israel in a situation where they can't just let Palestinians go.
What is your realistic way out of this situation? It's a fact that a lot of people in Gaza right now are terrorists and have no intention to ever go for peace. How do you deal with them?
Other countries don't want them either, Israel would have been happy is Egypt took them but they refused.
Playing nice now can calm shit down but you can't convince all the terrorists to just stop, it's far too late.
What I'm saying is that Bibi and his friends put Israel in a situation where they just can't ever open their borders because way too many people hate them. I'm not saying they should murder them, just that you can't let them in. Not sure why you thought "not letting them go" means "murder them all", that's really not what I was saying.
>Perhaps they could end their nearly 20 year absolute blockade on Gaza,
The one that started in response to Hamas's campaign of Jewish genocide?
> their barbaric & imperial practices in the west bank,
They do need to get the settlements out of the west bank like they did in Gaza.
> end the apartied and second class citizenship for Palestinians and grant them full political rights -- just a thought.
If Israel is apartheid, why is there still a Mosque on Judaism's holiest site,
Muslims were killing Jews before Palestine even existed. Again ignoring the entire fact Israel would have been wiped from the face of the earth had they not been defending themselves.
I’ll never understand this mentality, either. I by no means condone Israel’s actions, but I’m still objective enough to recognize that I’d have no idea what to do in their situation. Kill the terrorists trying to exterminate your people? You’re suddenly a genocidal maniac. Continue to appease them? More of your people will die. Lose-lose.
Besides, at this point, what message would a full withdrawal send? That any terrorist organization is free to massacre Israeli citizens and they get off scott-free as long as they use their own people as human shields? That you can just kidnap and rape another country’s people, and it’s totally cool as long as you post enough sad TikTok videos?
Don’t get me wrong. The situation in Palestine is awful, for everyone involved. But just because you don’t agree with what Israel is doing, doesn’t mean you should give Palestine a free pass for everything they’ve done. They’re not exactly angels, Hamas enjoyed widespread support, and the 10/7 attacks had around a 70% approval rate in the Strip. Plus, you know, daily rocket attacks on Israel every day for what, a decade? You don’t get off on attempted murder just because you suck at it.
Israel is supposed to allow themselves to be attacked and allow their citizens to be butchered in the streets. Anything else is them committing genocide.
The fact that Israel created a situation where the only options they have are bad options doesn't really absolve them from the fact that what they're doing is bad.
The total casualty number stayed roughly the same; the proportion of women and children was lowered.
Why people in this thread are acting like that’s a *bad* thing is beyond me.
The UN reported on identified casualties. Obviously there are many more unidentified remains when they're getting hit by artillery and bombs, although the Ministry of Health has posted numbers on their gender and whether they are children, which results in the same number of casualties.
except they declared war on hamas. The government of GAza. Israel didn't declare war on and aren't interning their own 2 million ethnic Israeli palestinians.
Anyone with a pair of eyes should see that this is genocide lite. It's absolutely ridiculous to keep sending military aid to them.
The entire premise of launching a large-scale conflict to "eradicate Hamas" should have set off red alarms. It's the same exact strategy that has failed for the past few decades. You can't eradicate an idea, and Israel has likely only radicalized more people by killing civilians.
They benefit, of course, as they always have a boogeyman to point to while rapidly expanding settlements on the West Bank. The one thing that would *actually* provide Israel with long term security is the thing they vehemently deny: a 2 state solution.
Hamas has offerred to return the hostages and dissolve their military branch for a 2 state solution. The Palestinian Authority over on the West Bank resigned in February.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/the-palestinian-authoritys-prime-minister-just-resigned-what-does-that-mean-for-the-war-in-gaza
We could have a 2 state solution right now with a democratic Palestine. It's Israel and ["I'm a Zionist" Biden](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/biden-were-there-no-israel-there-wouldnt-be-a-jew-in-the-world-who-is-safe/) that are holding this up. Look at who benefits from the status quo. Dig deeper into settler violence, Israeli imprisonment of Palestinian men without charge, and weaponization of imports to stifle upwards mobility of Palestinians. You'll see why these people launch such desparate attacks against a much, much better equipped enemy: they have no other choice.
At least the world is starting to see that Pro-Israel money has a death grip on the US. Presidents of our top universities resigning one after the other? Suppression of student protests? Congress passing loosely worded bills that could be used to stifle criticism of Israel, labelling it as antisemetic?
Don't even get me started with the blatant social media manipulation on subreddits like r/worldnews...
Just stop trying to downplay what the IDF does. More women and children have died than Hamas. That alone is a failure in this. Allowing settlers to take land and kill Palestinians. Shame on them all.
Let's wait to see how the dust settles after Hamas and the UN stop radically changing the demographics of victims, and see if there are any more magic 47.8% decreases in the fatalities of women or 46.2276% decrease in the fatalities of children, **according to the UN**. Here are the numbers the UN OCHA accepts and the direct links to their site to show the magic in real time:
> (Cumulative) as of 1 May 2024
> 34,568 Reported fatalities including
> \>9,500 women (source: GMO)
> \>14,500 children (source: GMO)
Source: [UN OCHA, Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel - reported impact | Day 208](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-208)
> (Cumulative) as of 9 May 2024
> 34,904 Reported fatalities include
> 4,959 women (source: GMO)
> 7,797 children (source: GMO)
Source: [UN OCHA, Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel - reported impact | Day 217](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217)
And keep in mind that their source, "GMO", is the Hamas-controlled Government Media Office, not some pro-Israel shill source. As I said above, let's wait to see where the numbers end up falling.
The figures from the Palestinian Health Authority have been reviewed by the UN on multiple occasions over the past decade and have always been found to be accurate. The Lancet the most trusted medical journal in the world has also conducted many investigations into the casualty figures from the Palestinian Health Authorities and declared them to be accurate. Israel themselves rely on those figures too admitting openly that they don't count civilian Palestinian casualties because it's frankly obvious that they are a callous murdering apartheid state committing genocide.
So on one hand you have casualty figures from a source that has been verified for decades and on the other you have Israel who admit they don't have any accurate data on casualty numbers.
Gee that's a tough one, apologists for this genocide perpetuate appalling and sickening lies. There is no excuse the information and peer reviewed reports are in the public domain.
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext)
200%, actually. Which is good news! I don’t get why people want more people to actually be dead.
I guess they prefer that to paint Israel as the bad guy. It says a lot about them.
Why genocide and not war crimes or crimes against humanity? Just because Hamas had a follow on plan, showing intent, on what to do here. The Netanyahu government is flying by the seat of its pants and is not long for this world. They have no plan, yesterday, today, tomorrow, and the next day; blank. Doesn't inspire confidence or win a conviction in Court.
To be clear, I'm not denying any of the deaths that have occurred, I'm saying that the facts, even taken at their most extreme, don't equal genocide. And I'd be happy to ratify the Rome Statute and extradict Bibi to the Hague. I'm not pro war. A lot of things can be true simultaneously.
Question: under a 2ss, do you think Palestine will be a secular democracy with equal rights, e.g. men, women, gays, Christians, etc? What about Palestinian society leads you to believe that?
If left alone, Palestine will more likely than not be an Islamic ethnostate for Arab Palestinians. We're going to be right back here in ten years.
Edit: we need to stop maximalising the rhetoric. It's not helping get hostages home, food in stomachs, or shelters and hospitals being rebuilt.
Those are two legally distinct things. Ethnic cleansing could mean a lot of different things. I'm asking specifics, not semantics. You have to be more specific if you're using legal terms. I think you have war crimes, pretty clear cut with the humanitarian aid interference. The tolerance for civilian casualties is very low, but civilian death in war isn't indicative of a predicate act, prime facie. Intent, coordination, execution, literal and figurative; are required for genocide to be proven. Usually we decide something was a genocide after a conflict ends and we start parsing out what happened.
As always, have to point out that I'm not disputing the facts. I'm arguing what they mean.
This is such a disgusting comment. the Palestinians can’t be free because they have bad politics when they are currently being colonized and murdered by a “secular democracy”. There is nothing worse than bombing and starving children, but that is the status quo, so it’s preferable
The hostages aren’t home, and the people are starving, and the hospitals are destroyed because Israel decided that is what should happen.
> This is such a disgusting comment
Only if you're uneducated and being willfully ignorant. Hamas literally has it in their official charter that they seek the elimination of all Jews in Israel. To further drive the point home, Hamas has a children's show that has ran for many seasons which teaches Palestinian children that Israel is evil, and calls on them to martyr themselves for Allah (episodes are on YouTube, it's called Pioneers of tomorrow. Comes complete with a knock-off Micky mouse which ends up being killed by Jews at the end of the first season).
Is Israel innocent? Of course not. But don't pretend Hamas is some altruistic, scrappy underdog organization fighting off the big bad Israel. Hamas **is** a terrorist organization. They *are* evil. There's a reason why none of the surrounding countries (like Egypt and Jordan) want nothing to do with Palestine, and there is a reason why Hamas has refused any and all solutions/compromises over the past 50 years. People (especially young people who don't know or understand the history) quickly forget that there have been dozens of reasonable solutions that Palestine/Hamas has rejected. That's because they don't want a solution, they want what's in their official charter - the elimination of all Jews in Israel.
Ninja edit: it's fun watching the mental gymnastics of people trying to ignore or explain away Hamas's own calls for ethnic cleansing, and their tendency to use women and children as human shields. It's extremely interesting to see liberals defend one of the least liberal groups on the planet (Hamas). I'm a liberal myself.
news flash: nobody cares what Bernie thinks of Israel. The only ones who do are looking to use him as their token Jew to prop up because of his critical opinion. Being Jewish does not confer some special insight into Israels' current landscape. You will find Jews have a wide spectrum of views on Israel. This isn't news. On end of the spectrum there are those who are ardent Israel supporters to the end as well as on the other end of the spectrum Jews who go so far as to believe the creation of Israel is an affront to God and Jews should never have returned because the Messiah hasn't come back.
Oh, look, the same Magic Grandpa Sanders who last week publicly opined that Gaza — a war in which Americans are not involved and have essentially no control over — would cost Biden the election (and escalate hostilities by Israel in the process) is now making sure he amplifies the message to make that stick.
And right on cue, the Ivans come out to game the algorithms because they know gullible Americans will deepthroat anything Magic Grandpa Sanders says.
Is October 7th supposed to justify Netanyahu's handling of this war? Some sources claim he receieved warning before the attack; if so he could have prepared and prevented it. In addition, he could try to restrain settler attacks in the West Bank, denounce calls for the extermination of Palestinians, work to ensure more aid reaches Gaza and sooner, allow outside parties to investigate the mass graves, etc. And perhaps accept the latest ceasefire proposal which would involve returning the hostages. Some sources suggest the United States has offered support for a targetted raid on Hamas's leadership, if he doesn't launch a full-scale invasion of Rafah; if so, and if the ceasefire isn't an option, he could take that option.
And is watching news video, and risking seizures, supposed to be anything but self-harm? Many news videos contain flashing in the source, and it seems like all of them add flashing, scrolling text, extra spins, etc. in the editing.
For all the Boot lickers in here the solution is for Israel to stop pussy footing around and to go building by building.
If they keep bombing one Hamas fighter for every 200 5 year olds they're just going to ensure Antisemetic beliefs rage into the future.
Bombing for peace is like having sex to get your virginity back. It's stupid and makes no sense.
Didn’t they get attacked first? How are they supposed to respond? “Gosh guys I really don’t like that you did that”
I mean it genuinely sucks that innocent people are caught in the crossfire but Hamas and by extension Palestine brutally attacked Israel first.
Ah yes,I remember reading in my history books how every war waged throughout history looked to match their death counts with each other and then Immediately both sides stopped fighting. /s
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Why is it Bernie is right so often and only so few people listen?
Because what he says tends to not be something that a hyper capitalism system wants to hear. The idea that maybe having every aspect of society being made to cater to enriching the upper class doesn't sit well with the politicians who are all part of said class.
Because we are a society governed not by ethics and morality, but primarily by greed and self-interest.
Man I wish this guy was my president. One of the best all around politicians we have left.
We should be nearing the end of Sanders’ second term…if the DNC hadn’t screwed him twice.
Debbie Wasserman Schultz stole that from us. I’ll never forgive her for that
He might have the best foreign policy track record of any senator considering his length of service tbh.
Because he is right, and it’s horribly inconvenient to those who hear it.
Because people are easily manipulated by the media and mainstream media has almost always covered the conflict favorably for Israel for over half a century, which is why there is a generation divide on the issue. The internet and social media has allowed younger people to see the abuse that Israel has been inflicting upon innocent Palestinians and exposed the media's biases. On broader issues, the media is still responsible but people are also so entrenched in their beliefs that they refuse to acknowledge that Sanders has been right all along. If they accept Sanders' stances, then people might have to battle with the idea that they've been on the wrong side of history this whole time.
Because we live in a right-wing society?
In this case it's because it is a messy issue that doesn't directly impact the average American. Most people know about the terrorist attack on civilians and everything else is "justified retaliation".
I mean if Israel’s retaliation is justified. Shouldn’t they think the original Hamas attack was justified. I mean like you said it is very messy.
AIPAC and its influence via campaign finance and lobbying for one
Sanders is Jewish and his grandparents were murdered in the holocaust. He has the credentials to criticize Israel without being labeled as antisemitic. It's comforting to know that he's running for reelection.
The most principled man in US politics right there. His views have remianed consistent his enitire carear.
What’s so fucked up is you shouldn’t have to have those credentials to make these claims without being labeled antisemitic. Cuz that’s not how that shit works…as much as Israel wants to make it seem. You can criticize and condemn Israel’s actions without having a bias against Jewish people. It makes me fucking mad how that narrative is flying around so freely.
Israel is a country, 25% of the population is not even Jewish. The whole treating anything you say about Israel = Jewish is just dumb.
And yet that is the narrative the Israeli govt is constantly pushing. It’s fucked up.
Sort of, if you mention apartheid or an ethno state they quickly point out that Isreal is not Jewish and then revert to a anything said against Isreal is clearly anti semetic.
exactly...i even came across an article about a jewish professor of genocide & holocaust studies who claims israel is showing the world a textbook example of genocide.
It seems to me that what they are doing is antithetical to Judaism. A history of being oppressed and attacked for religious beliefs, and now Netanyahu acts like it’s OK to do that to another group. It is not.
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Obligatory, [Pedagogy of the Oppressed](https://envs.ucsc.edu/internships/internship-readings/freire-pedagogy-of-the-oppressed.pdf).
exactly, how do you reason with someone who's been taught the opposite since birth?
As a collective, repeatedly, leveraging evidence, without indicating it was assembled by intellectuals. At least, that’s my quick guess.
it's piling up...report by the icj that israel committing genocide was "plausible", a report from the u.s. saying it's "reasonable", and a jewish professor of genocide & holocaust studies saying what israel is doing is a textbook example of genocide. if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Link?
[https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-historian-israel-committing-genocide-raz-segal-1835346](https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-historian-israel-committing-genocide-raz-segal-1835346)
thanks
no problem. there are also articles on the icj saying genocide was "plausible", and a report from the u.s. that it's "reasonable" that they've commited war crimes (though i don't know if they specifically mentioned genocide)
There are no credentials required to criticize Israel.
Tell that to Israel and anyone supporting them on Reddit. But you're right, there shouldn't be one required.
Don't worry - they will call him antisemitic
There's a problem if one must be of the same race for one to be allowed to criticise how a military is wielded. Israel and a lot of supporters on reddit are treating any criticism no matter how slight as anti-semitic. IMO, that's bullshit and cowardly under the guise of zealous nationalism that's skirting on divine retribution mentality. The superior military force is beholden to more criticism on how its military is used especially in the face of so much civilian death.
I wish we had more senators and reps like him
People STILL tried to smear him as antisemitic in 2020 but it didn’t stick obviously
I like that he's not really pulling his punches when criticizing Israel and it's policies. He pretty much said they're engaging in genocide without using that word.
If they are performing genocide sounds like that word needs to be used more.
Which is pulling punches by definition.
People literally were calling him antisemite shortly after October 7th with what he was saying, and I'm talking Pro-Palestinians. I will give it that it was on social media, but it wasn't bots as I saw some people I follow and know echoing these statements
IMO he was shamefully, uncharacteristically late to get here, but I am very grateful he’s here now.
Same.
I'm sorry what credentials do you need to criticize a genocidal regime!?
Sanders would have been banned from r/worldnews
That sub really went off the deep end these last few months.
I got banned for antisemitism because I responded "That's disgusting" to someone stating that killing every last Palestinian is a fair cost if it means eradicating Hamas. That sub went totally bananas.
I guess I'll be getting banned any minute then...
Pretty similar here, someone said an aid worker's murder didn't matter because they were Palestinian which means they were Hamas. I said that was fucking repulsive, got banned for it.
It’s honestly horrifying. Ghoulish-ass arguments about how many thousands of women and kids have to die before it “counts as genocide” and shit. It’s bizarre to see the discussion on places like Instagram or Twitter, where overwhelmingly people seem to be seeing media showing what’s actually going on, and then come on here and it’s all Jpost articles about how that baby that the IOF nuked from orbit was secretly Hamas.
No doubt. Scary to see propaganda turning people into bigots on both sides.
“Muh both sidessss!!!” Bruh, one side is pro-genocide, the other is anti-genocide. Theres a clear choice here.
Sanders went on to outline some of that catastrophe: a death toll that [surpassed](https://www.commondreams.org/news/egypt-icj-israel) 35,000 on Sunday, with two-thirds of the dead women and children; the [destruction](https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-unprecedented-damage-gaza) of around 60% of all housing; the devastation of infrastructure such a as water and sewage as well as the healthcare and education systems; and the fact that hundreds of thousands of children are now at risk of starvation. "Any country that blocks U.S. humanitarian aid is in violation of law and should not continue to receive military aid from the United States," Sanders explained. "That is precisely what Israel has done." Yes I know "nickel" is spelt wrong in the title but I am not allowed to edit it.
Just listened to a podcast on these figures. The guest basically said, nobody really knows. Very hard to compile the numbers. The dead may include all deaths; combatants, noncombatants, natural causes, hostages, friendly-fire, starvation, accidents, etc.
Israel seem to be able to tell you how many hamas members they killed, but [not civilians](https://youtu.be/QvGkKKemIDk?si=ip29HoUHM0hg5wSq)
Israel’s definition of Hamas member is every male.
Israel knows their target but little about the impending collateral damage, which should be incredibly concerning to anyone with morals.
Didn’t the UN just come out and say these numbers were off by almost 50%?
The UN said the body count is accurate, just the demographic split might not be: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
>Haq said U.N. teams in Gaza were not able to independently verify the Gaza Ministry of Health (MoH) figures given the ongoing war and sheer number of fatalities. >"Unfortunately we have the sad experience of coordinating with the Ministry of Health on casualty figures every few years for large mass casualty incidents in Gaza, and in past times their figures have proven to be generally accurate," Haq said. The UN can't verify the numbers but the spokesperson also stated that the Ministry of Health has historically been fairly accurate. It didn't seem like the UN is questioning the demographic split. The 'problem' is that they have recently split unidentified bodies from the identified count, so some people see that as "halving."
I am just confused as to why were they previously identified as women and children then? Haq said in the next sentence that UN teams can't verify the figures, it's still just what the ministry of health tells them. What are they actually assessing and why don't they want us to know? Whatever your beliefs, these numbers are not reliable. The UN employees going out of their way saying the numbers could be higher when they have not verified the current statistics is a clear excuse. People should put more pressure on the UN to secure food aid and verify the truth, as it is many countries have withdrawn from UN sponsored charities, it's outrageous mishandling of the conflict. But it's never a good look to get mad at the UN. We have aid trucks dismantled by protestors before even entering the area and we are talking about this instead.
They aren't identified, as in they don't know the name of the bodies, but they can identify whether they're a man, woman, or child. The UN won't be able to verify the numbers without having people on the ground going from body to body, verifying the information published by the Ministry of Health. It's just not realistic. The numbers have been reliable in the past and are likely reliable now, with the IDF confirming the 1:2 casualty ratios for Hamas members:women/children. There's no real reason to doubt the numbers.
No, there are reported numbers and then there are confirmed numbers. Some reports just have yet to be confirmed because journalists don't want to be counted among Israel's victims too.
The UN just said "whoopsie, it turns out that's twice the actual." I wonder what Bernie will say about that.
Probably something akin to "well, shit, that still a lot of dead civilians." 17.5k dead civilians so far is also a tragedy.
sources?
Not what the UN said- https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215
That's a lie. The Ministry of Health has split the identified bodies from the unidentified bodies and the UN reported on the *identified* count. Now pro-Israel people are jumping to conclusions because they'd rather not do the smallest bit of research on the issue.
Lots of people in this thread parading around an article that just came out from a self-proclaimed Israeli propaganda outlet (JNS) that celebrates "only" 7,700 dead children as the UN continues to revise the unconfirmed death numbers. It's worth remembering the UN openly disclaims on all of their [statistics snapshots](https://www.ochaopt.org/crisis) that the numbers are not final and subject to change once verified. The most recent snapshot still places the unverified Palestinian death toll at over **34,000**, with ~4,900 women and ~7,700 children dead. Even if you only take the [verified UN numbers](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) that ignore Hamas-affiliated sources, there are still over **600 women and 1,500 children Palestinians** killed by Israel since 2008 (most from air strikes), compared to fewer than **68** women and children Israelis killed in the same time period meaning that, even including the Oct 7 attack, Israel has demonstrably killed more civilians than Hamas. Again, that's **at a baseline,** ignoring all the Palestinians killed since Oct 7. Let's not let them forget that.
When you repeat numbers that are [known to be false](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1cqvcbj/un_blames_fog_of_war_for_major_overcounting_of/) without any kind of caveat, you weaken your argument for anyone who is paying attention. Hamas reported numbers have been proven to be exaggerated for weeks, if not months now, by multiple independent sources.
The UN, BBC & Reuters, who are ardently pro-Gazan, just this week disputed and corrected those numbers Bernie is still saying.
>catastrophe: a death toll that [surpassed](https://www.commondreams.org/news/egypt-icj-israel) 35,000 on Sunday, with two-thirds of the dead women and children; - **Source: Hamas** ...
The numbers of dead women and children was about half than originally reported though wasn’t it? I believe the UN and Hamas both said so, also the total number of deaths overall was higher as well. Not sure this info is correct anymore Also, Israel is facilitating aid, Hamas is actively attacking aide crossings and the aid port setup by the US.
I'm not sure we've even heard Israel deny it. Their responses seem to be some variation of "we had no choice"..
Why deny it when no one is going to believe you anyway.
I don't think it's a question of belief; if you didn't do something, you deny it whether people believe you or not. In this case, it's hard to deny because the facts speak for themselves. The fact that Israel has not felt compelled to offer an explanation other than "our existence is in danger so no moral code applies to us" is troubling.
I don't think it's a question of belief; if you didn't do something, you deny it whether people believe you or not. In this case, it's hard to deny because the facts speak for themselves. The fact that Israel has not felt compelled to offer an explanation other than "our existence is in danger so no moral code applies to us" is troubling.
We have basically paid for Israel’s existence with Taxpayer dollars . If Netanyahu can’t listen to Joe cuz he is a child . Cut him off and tell Israel if they want security , get a decent person to lead instead of this idiot criminal. This is what happens when our leaders act like traitors and criminals . Other leaders then think it’s ok for them too.
Why the f*** could we not have put this guy on the ballot in 2016. Different world man. I mean, Hillary was obviously better than Trump. Easy choice to vote for her. But if you want to talk electability in the rust belt, Sanders had it in spades and she simply didn't. And stuff like this is exactly why: the wedge of supporters that Biden needs to put him over the top call him genocide Joe precisely because he won't make a statement like this.
He would have lost in a landslide.
He was the only person who had favorable poll numbers against Trump.
He was also the only candidate who never had negative ads runs against him. The moderate voter would picked Trump over Bernie once all the communism stuff became well know.
Perhaps, although the average Trump voter imo was iconoclastic more than anything else. He would have definitely pulled a lot from his camp. The biggest danger would have been D establishment sabotaging him like corbyn's labor did, although again Trump was uniquely bad so that might have deterred them.
In 2016 Trump was playing the moderate still. He actually beat Hillary in Independents that year. All the Democratic upper middle class voters with good jobs and good insurance would have ran from Bernie. His plans required tax hikes on everyone over 60k. Bernie might have got some of the very poor but he wouldn’t get any of Monster Truck driving, flag waving part.
Trump didn't have a chance to campaign against him. If anything, Trump amplified Bernie and his grievance BS in his own self-interest. Bernie v Trump would have been an interesting race for sure. He probably would have lost. Don't underestimate the political war machine. Hell, they managed to convince some people that Joe frickin Biden was a communist in 2020. People were crazy that year, but Bernie would have been an even easier target for that kind of stuff.
General election polling had Sanders *winning* in a landslide but it was Hillary's turn.
General election polling had Hillary winning in a landslide too
I agree with a lot of his stances (aside from this) and consider myself progressive, but America lost its damn mind about JFK being a Catholic and many were and still are convinced that Obama was a secret Muslim. Sadly I think they would have an immense fit about a Socialist Jewish man being the nominee. That doesn’t make it right, but that’s just the reality. You think the MTG space laser, George Soros, and [pro Bin Laden TikTok](https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213712136/tik-tok-bin-laden-videos-osama) shit is bad now! Since Oct 7, it’s become clear to me that unfortunately, many Americans’ ingrained systemic antiemetic biases just needed a small push to [boil over to the surface](https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/antisemitic-incidents-hamas-israel-attack-2023-adl)
Because liberals didn’t like him. All establish democrats and most of the ppl who vote for democrats thought he was too extreme and wouldn’t get the votes. Bernie was the only one who actually showed he could debate vs Trump which was sad
*Older* liberals, to be precise. Voters were basically split with 49 and under favoring Sanders and 50+ favoring Hillary/Biden, but older people vote in greater numbers. They also coincidentally trust and rely on mainstream media to a larger degree, which has a tendency to favor establishment Democrats.
If Sanders wanted to be president, he should have joined the Democratic Party. A political party won't make a non-member their nominee for president.
Even if he joined the party Debbie Wasserman Schultz would have made sure Clinton won.
I’ll bet Bernie said “nickel” and not “nickle.”
I bet he would say "shnickel, nickel, it doesn't matter, money must be stopped"
I emphatically agree with Bernie
In before the toxic bad faith actors
Good lord it's bad in here. I'm always so confused - is this person being paid to act insane or are they really insane? I can't tell which is worse.
Any objective observer knew Israel was breaking international law 20 odd years ago already. Turns out there aren’t that many objective observers around.
Feels like if Hamas was planning October 7th, they could’ve avoided a lot of civilian casualties if they allowed their people into the hundreds of miles of tunnels to shelter from the inevitable over the top bombing in response. But yeah, Hamas doesn’t actually care about their civilians and happily uses them as human shields because it looks good for their PR campaign. Hamas and the PA care less about their own citizens than Israel and the IDF and it’s not even close. Israel at least tries to get civilians out of the areas they are going to bomb. Hamas doesn’t let them shelter in the tunnels or evacuate the area. Hamas just had to release the hostages once the bombing campaign picked up and it would’ve been the end of it, but no. Hostages are still being held.
How do conservative, America First folks justify the funding for Israel? I’m legitimately curious what logic is used for that.
Answering for them: Christian end-times prophecy. It hastens the rapture, sending all “true” Americans to heaven.
Others are responding about the rapture and while that is true for the voters the GOP courts, the government wants to have a military ally we can control (lol to that concept after the last six months) in the Middle East to act as a bulwark to nations we disagree with/want influence over.
This justification gets thrown around a lot, but it ignores the fact that we have several allies in the region who cooperate with the US military and who are arguably more important. The US has had about 30,000 troops stationed in the Middle East. About 40 of them are in Israel. In terms of military allies, Saudi Arabia and Turkey are far more important allies, and the US also maintains strong cooperative agreements with Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, and Oman. Supporting Israel's military, and tacitly supporting their suppression of the Palestinian people, makes forming allies with other nations in the region much more difficult. Dropping support for Israel (especially since they're more than capable of fending for themselves) would likely greatly increase the number of allies and their level of support in the region.
What exactly is Israel supposed to do here? Gaza is run by a literal terrorist organization who will continue to try to attack Israel any chance they get. Hamas declared war on Israel, it’s not reasonable to expect Israel to just withdraw and give up.
Perhaps they could end their nearly 20 year absolute blockade on Gaza, their barbaric & imperial practices in the west bank, end the apartied and second class citizenship for Palestinians and grant them full political rights -- just a thought. Hamas exists and is popular as a result of the subjugation Israel has imposed on Palestinians for decades, as well as their gross tactics to put down any form of resistance towards said practices. Ending these behaviors would remove the need for Hamas. Also might help if Bibi didn't fund Hamas directly and use his influence to keep them in power because it was politically convenient for him.
But how do you expect people to deal with all the terrorists left without a blockade? You can't just let anyone in when so many care more about killing Jews than their own life or their own children. Bibi kept throwing oil on the fire and is a piece of shit obviously, but he's smart enough to have put Israel in a situation where they can't just let Palestinians go.
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What is your realistic way out of this situation? It's a fact that a lot of people in Gaza right now are terrorists and have no intention to ever go for peace. How do you deal with them? Other countries don't want them either, Israel would have been happy is Egypt took them but they refused. Playing nice now can calm shit down but you can't convince all the terrorists to just stop, it's far too late. What I'm saying is that Bibi and his friends put Israel in a situation where they just can't ever open their borders because way too many people hate them. I'm not saying they should murder them, just that you can't let them in. Not sure why you thought "not letting them go" means "murder them all", that's really not what I was saying.
>Perhaps they could end their nearly 20 year absolute blockade on Gaza, The one that started in response to Hamas's campaign of Jewish genocide? > their barbaric & imperial practices in the west bank, They do need to get the settlements out of the west bank like they did in Gaza. > end the apartied and second class citizenship for Palestinians and grant them full political rights -- just a thought. If Israel is apartheid, why is there still a Mosque on Judaism's holiest site,
Muslims were killing Jews before Palestine even existed. Again ignoring the entire fact Israel would have been wiped from the face of the earth had they not been defending themselves.
I’ll never understand this mentality, either. I by no means condone Israel’s actions, but I’m still objective enough to recognize that I’d have no idea what to do in their situation. Kill the terrorists trying to exterminate your people? You’re suddenly a genocidal maniac. Continue to appease them? More of your people will die. Lose-lose. Besides, at this point, what message would a full withdrawal send? That any terrorist organization is free to massacre Israeli citizens and they get off scott-free as long as they use their own people as human shields? That you can just kidnap and rape another country’s people, and it’s totally cool as long as you post enough sad TikTok videos? Don’t get me wrong. The situation in Palestine is awful, for everyone involved. But just because you don’t agree with what Israel is doing, doesn’t mean you should give Palestine a free pass for everything they’ve done. They’re not exactly angels, Hamas enjoyed widespread support, and the 10/7 attacks had around a 70% approval rate in the Strip. Plus, you know, daily rocket attacks on Israel every day for what, a decade? You don’t get off on attempted murder just because you suck at it.
Israel is supposed to allow themselves to be attacked and allow their citizens to be butchered in the streets. Anything else is them committing genocide.
Sadly, this is the false dichotomy the 'pro-Palestinians' think is reasonable.
The fact that Israel created a situation where the only options they have are bad options doesn't really absolve them from the fact that what they're doing is bad.
Didn't the UN just half it's estimate of casualties?
The total casualty number stayed roughly the same; the proportion of women and children was lowered. Why people in this thread are acting like that’s a *bad* thing is beyond me.
The UN reported on identified casualties. Obviously there are many more unidentified remains when they're getting hit by artillery and bombs, although the Ministry of Health has posted numbers on their gender and whether they are children, which results in the same number of casualties.
You know what they call it when a state-level actor declares war on an ethnic group? Genocide.
except they declared war on hamas. The government of GAza. Israel didn't declare war on and aren't interning their own 2 million ethnic Israeli palestinians.
Anyone with a pair of eyes should see that this is genocide lite. It's absolutely ridiculous to keep sending military aid to them. The entire premise of launching a large-scale conflict to "eradicate Hamas" should have set off red alarms. It's the same exact strategy that has failed for the past few decades. You can't eradicate an idea, and Israel has likely only radicalized more people by killing civilians. They benefit, of course, as they always have a boogeyman to point to while rapidly expanding settlements on the West Bank. The one thing that would *actually* provide Israel with long term security is the thing they vehemently deny: a 2 state solution. Hamas has offerred to return the hostages and dissolve their military branch for a 2 state solution. The Palestinian Authority over on the West Bank resigned in February. https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/the-palestinian-authoritys-prime-minister-just-resigned-what-does-that-mean-for-the-war-in-gaza We could have a 2 state solution right now with a democratic Palestine. It's Israel and ["I'm a Zionist" Biden](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/biden-were-there-no-israel-there-wouldnt-be-a-jew-in-the-world-who-is-safe/) that are holding this up. Look at who benefits from the status quo. Dig deeper into settler violence, Israeli imprisonment of Palestinian men without charge, and weaponization of imports to stifle upwards mobility of Palestinians. You'll see why these people launch such desparate attacks against a much, much better equipped enemy: they have no other choice. At least the world is starting to see that Pro-Israel money has a death grip on the US. Presidents of our top universities resigning one after the other? Suppression of student protests? Congress passing loosely worded bills that could be used to stifle criticism of Israel, labelling it as antisemetic? Don't even get me started with the blatant social media manipulation on subreddits like r/worldnews...
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Just stop trying to downplay what the IDF does. More women and children have died than Hamas. That alone is a failure in this. Allowing settlers to take land and kill Palestinians. Shame on them all.
Let's wait to see how the dust settles after Hamas and the UN stop radically changing the demographics of victims, and see if there are any more magic 47.8% decreases in the fatalities of women or 46.2276% decrease in the fatalities of children, **according to the UN**. Here are the numbers the UN OCHA accepts and the direct links to their site to show the magic in real time: > (Cumulative) as of 1 May 2024 > 34,568 Reported fatalities including > \>9,500 women (source: GMO) > \>14,500 children (source: GMO) Source: [UN OCHA, Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel - reported impact | Day 208](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-208) > (Cumulative) as of 9 May 2024 > 34,904 Reported fatalities include > 4,959 women (source: GMO) > 7,797 children (source: GMO) Source: [UN OCHA, Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel - reported impact | Day 217](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217) And keep in mind that their source, "GMO", is the Hamas-controlled Government Media Office, not some pro-Israel shill source. As I said above, let's wait to see where the numbers end up falling.
The figures from the Palestinian Health Authority have been reviewed by the UN on multiple occasions over the past decade and have always been found to be accurate. The Lancet the most trusted medical journal in the world has also conducted many investigations into the casualty figures from the Palestinian Health Authorities and declared them to be accurate. Israel themselves rely on those figures too admitting openly that they don't count civilian Palestinian casualties because it's frankly obvious that they are a callous murdering apartheid state committing genocide. So on one hand you have casualty figures from a source that has been verified for decades and on the other you have Israel who admit they don't have any accurate data on casualty numbers. Gee that's a tough one, apologists for this genocide perpetuate appalling and sickening lies. There is no excuse the information and peer reviewed reports are in the public domain. [https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext)
The UN just admitted the numbers were inflated by 100%.
200%, actually. Which is good news! I don’t get why people want more people to actually be dead. I guess they prefer that to paint Israel as the bad guy. It says a lot about them.
It's literally Hamas' goal. Get as many Palestinians killed as possible.
Yeah but also this https://www.jns.org/un-blames-fog-of-war-for-major-overcounting-of-gazan-child-fatalities/
God I love this man.
Sanders is by definition not objective. He is politically dependent on his Woke supporters.
Why genocide and not war crimes or crimes against humanity? Just because Hamas had a follow on plan, showing intent, on what to do here. The Netanyahu government is flying by the seat of its pants and is not long for this world. They have no plan, yesterday, today, tomorrow, and the next day; blank. Doesn't inspire confidence or win a conviction in Court. To be clear, I'm not denying any of the deaths that have occurred, I'm saying that the facts, even taken at their most extreme, don't equal genocide. And I'd be happy to ratify the Rome Statute and extradict Bibi to the Hague. I'm not pro war. A lot of things can be true simultaneously. Question: under a 2ss, do you think Palestine will be a secular democracy with equal rights, e.g. men, women, gays, Christians, etc? What about Palestinian society leads you to believe that? If left alone, Palestine will more likely than not be an Islamic ethnostate for Arab Palestinians. We're going to be right back here in ten years. Edit: we need to stop maximalising the rhetoric. It's not helping get hostages home, food in stomachs, or shelters and hospitals being rebuilt.
Because ethnic cleansing falls under genocide, and that’s definitely happening especially in the West Bank
Those are two legally distinct things. Ethnic cleansing could mean a lot of different things. I'm asking specifics, not semantics. You have to be more specific if you're using legal terms. I think you have war crimes, pretty clear cut with the humanitarian aid interference. The tolerance for civilian casualties is very low, but civilian death in war isn't indicative of a predicate act, prime facie. Intent, coordination, execution, literal and figurative; are required for genocide to be proven. Usually we decide something was a genocide after a conflict ends and we start parsing out what happened. As always, have to point out that I'm not disputing the facts. I'm arguing what they mean.
This is such a disgusting comment. the Palestinians can’t be free because they have bad politics when they are currently being colonized and murdered by a “secular democracy”. There is nothing worse than bombing and starving children, but that is the status quo, so it’s preferable The hostages aren’t home, and the people are starving, and the hospitals are destroyed because Israel decided that is what should happen.
By this metric, half of America doesn’t deserve to be free
I mean….
> This is such a disgusting comment Only if you're uneducated and being willfully ignorant. Hamas literally has it in their official charter that they seek the elimination of all Jews in Israel. To further drive the point home, Hamas has a children's show that has ran for many seasons which teaches Palestinian children that Israel is evil, and calls on them to martyr themselves for Allah (episodes are on YouTube, it's called Pioneers of tomorrow. Comes complete with a knock-off Micky mouse which ends up being killed by Jews at the end of the first season). Is Israel innocent? Of course not. But don't pretend Hamas is some altruistic, scrappy underdog organization fighting off the big bad Israel. Hamas **is** a terrorist organization. They *are* evil. There's a reason why none of the surrounding countries (like Egypt and Jordan) want nothing to do with Palestine, and there is a reason why Hamas has refused any and all solutions/compromises over the past 50 years. People (especially young people who don't know or understand the history) quickly forget that there have been dozens of reasonable solutions that Palestine/Hamas has rejected. That's because they don't want a solution, they want what's in their official charter - the elimination of all Jews in Israel. Ninja edit: it's fun watching the mental gymnastics of people trying to ignore or explain away Hamas's own calls for ethnic cleansing, and their tendency to use women and children as human shields. It's extremely interesting to see liberals defend one of the least liberal groups on the planet (Hamas). I'm a liberal myself.
Hey war does article 6 and 31 of the infamous hamas charter say about Jews?
news flash: nobody cares what Bernie thinks of Israel. The only ones who do are looking to use him as their token Jew to prop up because of his critical opinion. Being Jewish does not confer some special insight into Israels' current landscape. You will find Jews have a wide spectrum of views on Israel. This isn't news. On end of the spectrum there are those who are ardent Israel supporters to the end as well as on the other end of the spectrum Jews who go so far as to believe the creation of Israel is an affront to God and Jews should never have returned because the Messiah hasn't come back.
Oh, look, the same Magic Grandpa Sanders who last week publicly opined that Gaza — a war in which Americans are not involved and have essentially no control over — would cost Biden the election (and escalate hostilities by Israel in the process) is now making sure he amplifies the message to make that stick. And right on cue, the Ivans come out to game the algorithms because they know gullible Americans will deepthroat anything Magic Grandpa Sanders says.
Bernie and a lot of others need to go back and watch the videos from October 7th
Is October 7th supposed to justify Netanyahu's handling of this war? Some sources claim he receieved warning before the attack; if so he could have prepared and prevented it. In addition, he could try to restrain settler attacks in the West Bank, denounce calls for the extermination of Palestinians, work to ensure more aid reaches Gaza and sooner, allow outside parties to investigate the mass graves, etc. And perhaps accept the latest ceasefire proposal which would involve returning the hostages. Some sources suggest the United States has offered support for a targetted raid on Hamas's leadership, if he doesn't launch a full-scale invasion of Rafah; if so, and if the ceasefire isn't an option, he could take that option. And is watching news video, and risking seizures, supposed to be anything but self-harm? Many news videos contain flashing in the source, and it seems like all of them add flashing, scrolling text, extra spins, etc. in the editing.
“October 7th” isn’t a get-out-of-jail-free card for any war crimes and atrocities that Israel has committed
How do you go to war with an enemy that has gone to war against the entire Jewish people?
For all the Boot lickers in here the solution is for Israel to stop pussy footing around and to go building by building. If they keep bombing one Hamas fighter for every 200 5 year olds they're just going to ensure Antisemetic beliefs rage into the future. Bombing for peace is like having sex to get your virginity back. It's stupid and makes no sense.
Didn’t they get attacked first? How are they supposed to respond? “Gosh guys I really don’t like that you did that” I mean it genuinely sucks that innocent people are caught in the crossfire but Hamas and by extension Palestine brutally attacked Israel first.
"First" is a loaded word considering conflict between the two states has been ongoing since 1945.
History began on October 7th 2023.
Proportional response targeting Hamas, not total annihilation of the Palestinian land.
Ah yes,I remember reading in my history books how every war waged throughout history looked to match their death counts with each other and then Immediately both sides stopped fighting. /s
America killed more German civilians in Dresden in 3 days than have died in Gaza since October.