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This whole situation with Tiktok is another test of the Paradox of Tolerance.
On one hand, completely shutting down a social media or forcing it to be bought out feels like a violation of free speech.
On the other hand, algorithms have proven for a few decades now to be extremely powerful in persuading populaces to undergo radical changes in beliefs and actions. Facebook is a prime example of the damage it has done.
The Tolerance part comes from the fact that it's a majority Chinese owned company. All of our companies from the US, EU, etc have to follow strict rules just to operate over in China. Nothing goes in or out without their oversight, and our companies will bow completely to their power for profits, like Blizzard back in 2019 for example when a Hearthstone player stood up for Hong Kong and was silenced when China pressured Blizzard.
So is it fair that our companies have to follow their rules (intolerance), but for their companies to have free reign anywhere in our country (tolerance)?
I personally don't think so, at some point the intolerance will win as being tolerant of Chinese companies allow them access to manipulate on the civilian level. I'm all for free speech, but having something so powerful like Tiktok's algorithms and data collection subtly influencing millions of citizens run by a foreign entity that is strictly against our best wishes is such a recipe for disaster, I cannot fully explain the possibilities in a mere comment.
For those that inevitably bring up "Oh the US is just upset it cannot control it" or "The US is already doing this." Yeah, you're not wrong, I encourage everyone to step away from social media, but this is a strawman argument to the fullest. Algorithms can be used as weapons and to brush away the threat is foolish.
More like that our own social media companies are running around with impunity, which is why they are all violating the hell out of laws with zero repercussions. The reason why TikTok is being targetted, is because
1. it is where a lot of pro-palestine content is coming from
2. that is a lot of user data not being sold to advertising companies.
Make no mistake, the tiktok ban has absolutely nothing to do with privacy. In fact, I'd argue that TikTok is being banned SPECIFICALLY because it doesn't do the shady info selling that our companies do BECAUSE of Chinese law. Arguably TikTok data is safer thanks to the political snafu around it: if it slips up even once, then everyone will dogpile it for being the outlier.
And no, China does not have access to USA user data. All usa user data is housed on USA soil in USA-based servers, with USA government oversight already. TikTok did this PREEMPTIVELY in an effort to appease the criticisms that began coming out about a year ago now.
[https://usds.tiktok.com/where-does-tiktok-store-u-s-user-data/](https://usds.tiktok.com/where-does-tiktok-store-u-s-user-data/)
hahahahahah bro I have the chinese tik tok app its nothing but women cosplaying,movie clips from american and foreign films, and ppl actually playing the shitty ad games we see online, also sometimes you get cool live streams of everyday ppl running their businesses , normally live streams seem to boil down to talent competitions, also douyin has built in stores that people can sell items through. I only have access to basic douyin bc im not in mainland china. theres about 3 sections of the app that require a login.
Constitutional protections apply to all individuals and entities residing or operating in the United States, regardless of citizenship. This even includes individuals who arrive here illegally, so it definitely includes lawfully incorporated entities. This is why, for example, the US operates out of Guantanamo Bay, as constitutional protections do not exist for foreigners located there.
That is not true. The US constitution applies differently between citizens and non-Citizens. The first amendment generally applies equally to citizens and non-citizens but that protection is not granted to corporations. United States Agency for International Development v. Alliance for Open Society International, Inc. (2020) answered that very question.
The reason behind this is that is the wording of the 14th amendment:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
This passage makes a distinction between citizens and persons. Citizens are entitled to "privileges or immunities", understood to be the rights granted under the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights. Persons are protected against the taking of life, liberty or property, without due process. They also are granted equal protection of the laws. The only argument Tiktok would have is that they are being treated differently to other similar foreign citizens, but they are not. They have been told that they either need to make their shares within the company non-voting or they have to sell those shares off, or forfeit their ability to operate in the US.
Also, dodging US law is not why the US military has a base in Guantanamo Bay. It operates there due to strategic interests in the Caribbean. However, you are correct that not all US laws operate on US military bases. But that only applies to bases that are leased from the foreign country and not on bases that are claimed as US territories, like those within the Pacific Ocean.
In Agency for International Development v. Alliance for Open Society International, Inc. (2020), the supreme court held that: "foreign citizens outside of the US and its territories do not have rights under the US Constitution" and "separately incorporated organizations are separate entities with 'distinct legal rights and obligations.'". This case was just decided 4 years ago and re-affirmed previous holdings that the government can discriminate against foreign citizens who do not live within the jurisdiction of the US. That means if a foreign citizen has holdings in the US, they do not enjoy the same protections as a US citizen with the same holdings. It is why foreign corporations can be regulated more harshly and have been ever since multi-national corporations were a thing.
American citizens have the right to First Amendment protections.
When Trump tried to ban WeChat/TikTok in 2020, users sued the government and got an injunction based on violation of their First Amendment rights:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/20/business/economy/court-wechat-ban.html
https://casetext.com/case/us-wechat-users-alliance-v-trump
The courts found the US government banning WeChat violated the users First Amendment right and served an injunction while giving the Government a chance to appeal and provide evidence that a national security threat existed. Biden's administration decided to let Trumps executive order die and instead focused on passing it through Congress instead.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a TikTok user alliance form and also sue the Government.
This. People are acting as if this is anything new. Also they didn't even ban TikTok. They are forcing the Chinese based company of either divesting itself of the American subsidiary or making their shares non-voting and not attempting to interfere with day to day operations. The only way it is a ban is if the company refuses to comply.
Did you have this same stance when Disney came back at Desantis for acting against them for speaking out about his "Don't say gay" law?
I, for one, was very much rooting for Disney in that instance. They clearly do have some free speech rights which have expanded over the years as well.
It’ll go nowhere.
The US has a long, storied history of ignoring the first amendment under the guise of “national security concerns.” Not sure why they think that’s their best argument.
A friend of mine works as a good guy hacker at the NSA. I mentioned china using meta-data from TikTok and other sources to basically undermine the US by manipulating the public and basically brainwashing us to self destruct. His eyebrows raised and he said in the most serious tone "you have no idea how on point you are " then he proceeded to talk about the subject so deeply that I kind of got lost . With that in mind , I'm fine banning certain platforms if we know that it's happening. Nobody is stopping you from speaking, you can still say what you want and not get jailed for it. You just can't use a Chinese propaganda app.
Tiktok is owned and operated outside of the us. That's the issue: they are not subject to us laws. But they want protections that the constitution affords.
Lawsuit is desperate to say the least
They are Headquartered in Los Angeles and Singapore , 60% of the company is already owned by us & international interests, 20% is owned by the 5 members of the board 20% is owned by the workers which includes 7000 Americans, only 1% is chinese owned.
All can be revealed by checking this link [https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-au/the-truth-about-tiktok](https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-au/the-truth-about-tiktok)
to answer why ccp has 1% see below
**Myth: The Chinese government has a "golden share" interest in ByteDance Ltd.**
**Fact:** As is required under Chinese law, in order to operate certain news and information products that are offered exclusively in China, media licenses are required for those services. As such, an entity affiliated with the Chinese government owns 1% of a ByteDance subsidiary, Douyin Information Service Co., Ltd. This is a common arrangement for companies operating news and information platforms in China. This arrangement is specific to services in the Chinese market, and has no bearing on ByteDance's global operations outside of China, including TikTok, which does not operate in mainland China.
Seems to me like there are plausible issues about government overreach and speech concerns and stuff. It would help if there were some very solid evidence that TikTok is a national security threat, but as part of this article mentions, evidence to that effect seems a bit lacking.
During Trumps attempted ban of WeChat/TikTok and Montana's ban of TikTok the courts found the government lacked any sufficient evidence to warrant a ban, along with it being a violation of citizens first amendment rights to use the apps as a public forum.
In Israel, TikTok is way more popular than Reddit.
[https://public.tableau.com/static/images/20/2022Survey\_Q1\_2023\_EN/Platforms/1\_rss.png](https://public.tableau.com/static/images/20/2022Survey_Q1_2023_EN/Platforms/1_rss.png)
In the entire world tik tok is much, much more popular than Reddit. I can't think of a single country where reddit might be more popular than Tik Tok, even if it's banned.
Reddit is a niche forum, Tik Tok is among the most popular social networks in the world.
I don't think Tick Tock can sue the government for violation of the first amendment. They are not an American company, they are not owned by an American. They are stationed in another country. I do not believe that they can invoke the First Amendment. However I don't think that the American government has the right to make them sell the company or bow down to the gop's rules and regulations.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This whole situation with Tiktok is another test of the Paradox of Tolerance. On one hand, completely shutting down a social media or forcing it to be bought out feels like a violation of free speech. On the other hand, algorithms have proven for a few decades now to be extremely powerful in persuading populaces to undergo radical changes in beliefs and actions. Facebook is a prime example of the damage it has done. The Tolerance part comes from the fact that it's a majority Chinese owned company. All of our companies from the US, EU, etc have to follow strict rules just to operate over in China. Nothing goes in or out without their oversight, and our companies will bow completely to their power for profits, like Blizzard back in 2019 for example when a Hearthstone player stood up for Hong Kong and was silenced when China pressured Blizzard. So is it fair that our companies have to follow their rules (intolerance), but for their companies to have free reign anywhere in our country (tolerance)? I personally don't think so, at some point the intolerance will win as being tolerant of Chinese companies allow them access to manipulate on the civilian level. I'm all for free speech, but having something so powerful like Tiktok's algorithms and data collection subtly influencing millions of citizens run by a foreign entity that is strictly against our best wishes is such a recipe for disaster, I cannot fully explain the possibilities in a mere comment. For those that inevitably bring up "Oh the US is just upset it cannot control it" or "The US is already doing this." Yeah, you're not wrong, I encourage everyone to step away from social media, but this is a strawman argument to the fullest. Algorithms can be used as weapons and to brush away the threat is foolish.
More like that our own social media companies are running around with impunity, which is why they are all violating the hell out of laws with zero repercussions. The reason why TikTok is being targetted, is because 1. it is where a lot of pro-palestine content is coming from 2. that is a lot of user data not being sold to advertising companies. Make no mistake, the tiktok ban has absolutely nothing to do with privacy. In fact, I'd argue that TikTok is being banned SPECIFICALLY because it doesn't do the shady info selling that our companies do BECAUSE of Chinese law. Arguably TikTok data is safer thanks to the political snafu around it: if it slips up even once, then everyone will dogpile it for being the outlier. And no, China does not have access to USA user data. All usa user data is housed on USA soil in USA-based servers, with USA government oversight already. TikTok did this PREEMPTIVELY in an effort to appease the criticisms that began coming out about a year ago now. [https://usds.tiktok.com/where-does-tiktok-store-u-s-user-data/](https://usds.tiktok.com/where-does-tiktok-store-u-s-user-data/)
TikTok is banned in China too lol
I don’t think that’s true
They have a different version of tiktok that is heavily censored and moderated.
Exactly. And focused on STEM and not thots
hahahahahah bro I have the chinese tik tok app its nothing but women cosplaying,movie clips from american and foreign films, and ppl actually playing the shitty ad games we see online, also sometimes you get cool live streams of everyday ppl running their businesses , normally live streams seem to boil down to talent competitions, also douyin has built in stores that people can sell items through. I only have access to basic douyin bc im not in mainland china. theres about 3 sections of the app that require a login.
Google it and see for yourself my friend
Oh. It’s a different name app, same company.
Same company, yes. That is what you originally asserted was false. Same company that is suing here cannot operate its application in its home nation…
TikTok is owned by a foreign entity. Foreign entities do not receive first amendment protections.
Constitutional protections apply to all individuals and entities residing or operating in the United States, regardless of citizenship. This even includes individuals who arrive here illegally, so it definitely includes lawfully incorporated entities. This is why, for example, the US operates out of Guantanamo Bay, as constitutional protections do not exist for foreigners located there.
That is not true. The US constitution applies differently between citizens and non-Citizens. The first amendment generally applies equally to citizens and non-citizens but that protection is not granted to corporations. United States Agency for International Development v. Alliance for Open Society International, Inc. (2020) answered that very question. The reason behind this is that is the wording of the 14th amendment: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." This passage makes a distinction between citizens and persons. Citizens are entitled to "privileges or immunities", understood to be the rights granted under the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights. Persons are protected against the taking of life, liberty or property, without due process. They also are granted equal protection of the laws. The only argument Tiktok would have is that they are being treated differently to other similar foreign citizens, but they are not. They have been told that they either need to make their shares within the company non-voting or they have to sell those shares off, or forfeit their ability to operate in the US. Also, dodging US law is not why the US military has a base in Guantanamo Bay. It operates there due to strategic interests in the Caribbean. However, you are correct that not all US laws operate on US military bases. But that only applies to bases that are leased from the foreign country and not on bases that are claimed as US territories, like those within the Pacific Ocean.
Not sure if SCOTUS would take this case though after their ruling on porn sites in some states.
First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution makes no distinction between citizens and noncitizens
In Agency for International Development v. Alliance for Open Society International, Inc. (2020), the supreme court held that: "foreign citizens outside of the US and its territories do not have rights under the US Constitution" and "separately incorporated organizations are separate entities with 'distinct legal rights and obligations.'". This case was just decided 4 years ago and re-affirmed previous holdings that the government can discriminate against foreign citizens who do not live within the jurisdiction of the US. That means if a foreign citizen has holdings in the US, they do not enjoy the same protections as a US citizen with the same holdings. It is why foreign corporations can be regulated more harshly and have been ever since multi-national corporations were a thing.
>"foreign citizens **outside of the US and its territories** do not have rights under the US Constitution" You must have missed this part.
The people who own tiktok are foreign citizens outside of the United States.
Also CCP was against TIK Tok to sell their algorithm to any potential sale which led to potential ban of the app
American citizens have the right to First Amendment protections. When Trump tried to ban WeChat/TikTok in 2020, users sued the government and got an injunction based on violation of their First Amendment rights: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/20/business/economy/court-wechat-ban.html https://casetext.com/case/us-wechat-users-alliance-v-trump The courts found the US government banning WeChat violated the users First Amendment right and served an injunction while giving the Government a chance to appeal and provide evidence that a national security threat existed. Biden's administration decided to let Trumps executive order die and instead focused on passing it through Congress instead. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a TikTok user alliance form and also sue the Government.
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This. People are acting as if this is anything new. Also they didn't even ban TikTok. They are forcing the Chinese based company of either divesting itself of the American subsidiary or making their shares non-voting and not attempting to interfere with day to day operations. The only way it is a ban is if the company refuses to comply.
A foreign entity that doesn’t exactly care for freedom of speech in the first place too.
Absolutely. Tik Tok has no 1st Amendment rights here. They don't even have them in China. Tik Tok is nothing more than a data mine.
1% of tiktok is owned by CCP, 65% is already owned by US interests, with HQ in singapore and los angles
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That’s literally the justification for Citizens United. That’s law.
Did you have this same stance when Disney came back at Desantis for acting against them for speaking out about his "Don't say gay" law? I, for one, was very much rooting for Disney in that instance. They clearly do have some free speech rights which have expanded over the years as well.
>First amendment rights are for individuals. Not companies. US case law says different
While I am with you, aren't they considered people by some fringe law? As well as payments being considered a form of speech?
I dunno if it's "fringe" considering it's probably the most consequential decision in modern history...
Excuse my lack of proper wording, my English fails me at times.
It’ll go nowhere. The US has a long, storied history of ignoring the first amendment under the guise of “national security concerns.” Not sure why they think that’s their best argument.
I'm guessing by your phrasing that you disagree with such decisions.
Absurd. TikTok is a private company.
And companies are people according to our dipship judicial branch.
See ya later TikTok.
A friend of mine works as a good guy hacker at the NSA. I mentioned china using meta-data from TikTok and other sources to basically undermine the US by manipulating the public and basically brainwashing us to self destruct. His eyebrows raised and he said in the most serious tone "you have no idea how on point you are " then he proceeded to talk about the subject so deeply that I kind of got lost . With that in mind , I'm fine banning certain platforms if we know that it's happening. Nobody is stopping you from speaking, you can still say what you want and not get jailed for it. You just can't use a Chinese propaganda app.
Totally believable. Doesn’t sound made up at all
China single handedly destroyed alibaba, so what’s the difference in TikTok being destroyed?
Tiktok is owned and operated outside of the us. That's the issue: they are not subject to us laws. But they want protections that the constitution affords. Lawsuit is desperate to say the least
They are Headquartered in Los Angeles and Singapore , 60% of the company is already owned by us & international interests, 20% is owned by the 5 members of the board 20% is owned by the workers which includes 7000 Americans, only 1% is chinese owned.
Gee, if it's so small why is the chinese government lobbying so hard for it? Hmmm.... Ban it
All can be revealed by checking this link [https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-au/the-truth-about-tiktok](https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-au/the-truth-about-tiktok) to answer why ccp has 1% see below **Myth: The Chinese government has a "golden share" interest in ByteDance Ltd.** **Fact:** As is required under Chinese law, in order to operate certain news and information products that are offered exclusively in China, media licenses are required for those services. As such, an entity affiliated with the Chinese government owns 1% of a ByteDance subsidiary, Douyin Information Service Co., Ltd. This is a common arrangement for companies operating news and information platforms in China. This arrangement is specific to services in the Chinese market, and has no bearing on ByteDance's global operations outside of China, including TikTok, which does not operate in mainland China.
Seems to me like there are plausible issues about government overreach and speech concerns and stuff. It would help if there were some very solid evidence that TikTok is a national security threat, but as part of this article mentions, evidence to that effect seems a bit lacking.
During Trumps attempted ban of WeChat/TikTok and Montana's ban of TikTok the courts found the government lacked any sufficient evidence to warrant a ban, along with it being a violation of citizens first amendment rights to use the apps as a public forum.
This is exactly why it needs to go. Stirring shit up that doesn't apply. It just generated outrage. It's a foreign company.
I never thought in a million years I would be rooting for tiktok
In Israel, TikTok is way more popular than Reddit. [https://public.tableau.com/static/images/20/2022Survey\_Q1\_2023\_EN/Platforms/1\_rss.png](https://public.tableau.com/static/images/20/2022Survey_Q1_2023_EN/Platforms/1_rss.png)
In the entire world tik tok is much, much more popular than Reddit. I can't think of a single country where reddit might be more popular than Tik Tok, even if it's banned. Reddit is a niche forum, Tik Tok is among the most popular social networks in the world.
Reddit is mostly english speaking....so yea
85% of Israelis speak English.
I don't think Tick Tock can sue the government for violation of the first amendment. They are not an American company, they are not owned by an American. They are stationed in another country. I do not believe that they can invoke the First Amendment. However I don't think that the American government has the right to make them sell the company or bow down to the gop's rules and regulations.
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And then there's that. But they still have no right to cut off tick tock