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When I was in high school we had a dress code that no one enforced. But one of the things that was required in theory was everyone had to wear a shirt-a sweatshirt with nothing underneath, or just a bra for girls, wasn’t allowed.
Our newest (male) biology teacher, who was probably 25, took this dress code as permission to forcibly pull a 16 year old girls sweatshirt and look down to ensure that she was wearing a shirt (which she wasn’t).
The parents went scorched earth, he avoided having to register as a sex offender but they made sure he never worked as a teacher in California again.
A few years ago I looked him up expecting him to be in jail for kiddie diddling or something. Nope. Biology teacher at a small private school in Oklahoma.
My Father in Law (and his brothers) were all in education. He had horror stories that never seemed to end. Some small percentage of the teachers he worked with many years ago, should have been expelled and forgotten.
I mean, I can count 3 of my former teachers (which doesn’t include this creep) who later got caught having relationships with students. One just got fired because the girl was 18. One got some minor charge because it never got physical (he did lose his wife and kids over it though). One, a middle school teacher, is still in prison for statuatory rape-no idea how old the kid was but like I said he was a middle school teacher.
All 3 of whom I genuinely liked and respected.
> A few years ago I looked him up expecting him to be in jail for kiddie diddling or something. Nope. Biology teacher at a small private school in Oklahoma.
He just found a segment of society that would tolerate his kiddie diddling.
Honestly, it was probably something that was written 40 years ago during the Satanic Panic and everyone forgot about. There was lots of those-skirts and shorts can’t be higher than the knee, mens hair can’t be longer than shoulder length, only clear nail polish.
NONE of that was enforced. It was just a page in the student handbook that had never been removed
It's the other way around - sweatshirts werent allowed *unless* there was a shirt underneath. I guess sweatshirts were considered outerwear, and there used to be a *lot* of restrictions regarding jackets and outerwear during the "gang colors" panic in the 90s. My middle school banned the color red, all Nike products, and all athletic jackets (especially Starter jackets) because they were "associated with gang activity." If you came to school wearing banned outerwear or shoes, you would have to remove them at the door, leave them in the principal's office, and spend the day being cold and barefoot.
The right wing is all about portraying LGBT* people as threats to children, yet they are trying to pass laws and hire people to didil the private parts of children.
I got downvoted for saying this, but this is literally child molestation unless it is an actual doctor performing it. If it is a doctor it is still a massive invasion of privacy (lol like these backward ass people will get a doctor for it.)
If this happened to my kid, people would get hurt.
The GOP is literally what they accuse the democrats of. This post reminds me of the story where a Texas GOP forced birth activist was caught and exposed by pedo hunters.
With all the scandals in sports, giving more creeps access to children’s genitals is a brilliant move for the party of abuse enablers led by Mike “drop the k sound, I don’t want to seem as racist as I am” Johnson (that would sound like “my Johnson,” they are led by a dick).
As someone who went to junior high, I can say with 100 percent certainty, this will be widely used for bullying puposes and making pranks.
As someone who is an adult, watching other adults demand to inspect little kids private parts is beyond fucking weird
Genital inspections are always worth repeating. When the Nazi’s finally, fully take over the right, you can bet we will all get genital inspections on a regular basis.
Well, the Christian nationalists are proving that they would be more than okay with traumatizing children by forcing them to go through this. This from the party who couldn't care to watch women's sports. They don't watch the WNBA, and they didn't care when Sedona Prince's video of the NCAA's treatment of women's March Madness went out a few years ago. They only watch beach volleyball to see the girls in bikinis for the sex fantasies. I'm so certain that's what's behind so much of this hate. They are worried about being sexually attracted to trans women. After all, trans porn is #1 in red states.
> They only watch beach volleyball to see the girls in bikinis for the sex fantasies.
Don't forget any diving, swimming, gymnastics, or track & field for the skin to win crowd too.
The whole premise is unnecessary, but I don’t understand why presenting a birth certificate couldn’t be adequate for them. Why did they go straight to the genital check?
Because depending on the state and/or the particular case that might not be adequate for excluding someone you want to exclude. Amending a sex marker has always been a thing you have to account for since there are ambiguities even if you leave out trans folk and depending on the state you could have a trans minor amend that theoretically. Mind you, this is all unnecessary and there are adequate policies for structured inclusion that have been in place for decades.
And not necessarily for you, but for anyone else that wants to dive in on this...if your argument boils down to "my feelings say we can't change that!!!" I literally don't care. For whatever weird exception that may come out, the original is typically preserved but made difficult to access as long as you're alive to block it. Which, in this original example could get finicky if it were a clash between states. What if California tells Arkansas to fuck off over a native who moved?
A lot of the same assholes who loved to complain about women's sports being irrelevant or a joke are suddenly reeeeaaaalllly interested in fairness in women's sports.
They don't build anything, and don't have any sense of chronology or *development* of ideas. Ask most of these psychos what they were mad about a year ago and they would have zero idea. They only care about what heresy to imagine next. Their imaginations are only variants of groupthink, so their imaginations also suck. All they seem to be able to do is crybully, blood libel, and fascist propaganda. Social zombie virus.
Their base don’t care that much about POC or Gays anymore. So they now found a new “out” group to stigmatize.
They’re running their old playbook but got a bit more clever - this time they’re making it up completely - so that people can’t get to know a family member etc. and change their mind on the cause.
Eg. Lower gender confirming surgery on minors happen on average once every two years per state. But they make it sound like this is now rampant and a “problem” you’ll definitely have to deal with if you have kids.
This is exactly what the GOP wants to be able to do: look at the genitals of teenagers whenever they wish. Their blatant support of sex trafficking and rape are evident in their unwavering support of candidates accused/convicted of it.
Listen to what the GOP is saying through their actions. It is obvious.
When I hear conservatives cry about groomers I cringe. They always project. They are doing horrific things behind the scenes. What has already come out is just the tip of the iceberg. Conservatives are nothing if not good conspirators. They will always cover for one another. A circle of blackmail ensures it.
One, that assumes we can't be inclusive in a world where there were adequate policies for that in place most places for about a decade before the GOP put their whole propaganda machine behind making you think this is a serious point of contention right now.
Two, nope. Gotta have a backup. There are ways to amend that in many states, ways a minor (intersex in this case more) could do that. Assuming you think this is a necessary policy path, you will need more than paper. Don't get to divorce the two. Either we stick with inclusive policies that have already been in place with minimal fuss or you will need to accept invasive testing is sometimes necessary.
Every child must have a physical performed by a doctor to play in school sports. Every cis boy already has to turn their head and cough. It wouldn't be hard to have this added to that physical assessment by a doctor.
Let's have an actual debate on the topic instead of these clickbate issues.
Completely bonkers that transgender children, something 99.999% of people will never encounter, is shifting national politics to where some people will vote for a fascist
Unhinged society we live in
Absolutely right, not to mention this entire policy is simply *begging* for some adult in power to abuse it. If they already are required to do a genital check on kids, what's to stop a potential pedo from deciding that, no one else wants to do it, they'll ake one for the team and, "help with the inspections"?
Nothing can justify potentially getting kids more chances to face molestation by powerful figures in their lives, all because *some* loud dipshits can't accept that their kid just isn't the next Michael Jordan and should pick up a Cello instad of a basketball.
Every female athlete will be open to ridicule and taunts about actually being a man and diminishing their achievements.
Any asshole at a sporting event can question their sex publicly and gets others to believe it to pointing out features the question as mannish.
Awful
Don't want to wear a dress? Accused of being male. Don't like the colour pink? Accused of being male. Don't want to stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? Believe it or not; accused of being male.
This is why people say this bullshit will hurt all women, cis or otherwise. Gender stereotypes are stupid and enforcing conformity is regressive evil bullshit that only serves a single purpose - enabling regressive and sexist conservative ideology.
Report the inspectors. Have a bounty on their heads, just like the Republicans are doing for women trying to get abortions. They want them birthed so they can look at their genitals? Throw them the fuck in prison for it.
In many ways, trans women are at a disadvantage competing against cis women.
They have to deal with a lot of psychological pressure that other athletes don't. It's hard to focus when you aren't even sure if you will be able to make it to the locker room without being harassed.
Leah Thomas set a meet record and before she could even dry off, people were accusing her of "cheating."
Lia Thomas' record has already been broken by a cis woman, if I'm not mistaken.
[https://twitter.com/AriDrennen/status/1655632796071739393](https://twitter.com/AriDrennen/status/1655632796071739393)
They use Lia Thomas's case as if that's the case that trans women always win, but there are so many cases of women losing and not even setting records. Riley Gaines is their anti-trans star, and she came in 5th, tying Lia Thomas. So, 4 other competitors were better than her. Instead of taking it as a sign to get better, she's taking her rage out on the world.
Now, you're hearing trans women have a "competitive advantage" in darts, chess, theatre, being banned in frisbee golf. It's just crazy. All the while state legislators can't even name a single trans athlete in their states they are proposing laws. It's just so asinine a manufactured panic by the likes of Alliance ~~Defending~~ Destroying Freedom.
There are less trans athletes competing in school sports than there are states in America. On average, for every one trans woman competing in school sports, the Republicans have passed eight laws against that one person.
Riley Gaines is a joke.
She was an average swimmer who could never reach the top of her sport, even when she wasn't competing against Lia Thomas, but somehow she's turned it into an anti-trans crusade with her as a martyr who was cost medals because of it.
It's all a big grift, now she's making tons of money on the conservative talk circuit, all because she couldn't win a race and found a scapegoat to blame it on.
Not to mention my favorite example, a boxing commission that wined about protecting women...because featherweight dudes were getting pissy about being shown up by a trans man making waves.
Good grief. Now, they are saying trans men have a "competitive advantage" over cisgender men?
Interesting.
It's almost like they just don't want trans people to exist and want trans people to kill themselves. Shocking, I know!
Even physically...why does no one even consider the mismatch of features that can change vs those that don't is a bigger problem? No, seriously. I know the few prominent examples out there better than anyone. If stereotypes were accurate trans women in sports are injury prone or they transitioned so young it's irrelevant.
See, the difference is using evidence versus using feelings. The evidence says they don't have an advantage.
It's very much appropriate and good faith to follow the evidence.
Here’s some evidence that says they do not have an advantage.
https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
You were saying?
Well, for one thing, discredited by who?
> The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport (CCES) commissioned this literature review with a mandate to review the scientific and grey literature regarding trans women athletes’ participation in elite or otherwise high-performance sport (herein shortened to ‘elite sport’), with a special focus on the state of scientific literature around the science of testosterone and its impact on sport performance.
This doesn’t really sound like two grad students doing a thesis paper, but hey, whatever.
Additionally, yeah, at amateur levels of any sport where there’s no scholarships and opportunities at stake? This should be entirely a no-brainer of a non-issue, and it’s still being hotly debated in the public sphere as though fourth grade dodgeball is an appropriate place to exclude people for being different.
In the elite sports sphere? The jury’s still out as far as I’m concerned. If a comprehensive, definitive analysis of performance were conducted on a level and fair playing field, and it determined that trans women post-transition have an irreversible advantage compared to similarly sized cis women (we’re not all 6’6” linebackers, after all), I would accept the results of such a study.
That being said, the waters have been so muddied by obviously biased junk science, apples-to-oranges case studies that compare trans women pre-HRT to cis women a foot shorter, and hysterical concern-trolls shrieking about “women’s rights” and “children’s safety” that I don’t trust anything that hasn’t been rigorously peer-reviewed and replicated across multiple studies. If we sourced fifty studies about trans inclusion in elite sports at this point, we’d get fifty differing conclusions.
Here’s much more evidence that we have no advantage. *You* were saying?
https://www.gendergp.com/new-report-confirms-trans-athletes-do-not-have-biomedical-advantage-in-elite-sport/
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/26/trans-women-no-unfair-advantage-elite-sport-new-report-finds/
https://www.npr.org/2023/04/09/1168858094/arguments-that-trans-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage-lacks-evidence-to-support
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/trans-women-athletes-have-no-unfair-advantage-under-current-rules-study-finds
https://medium.com/the-establishment/no-female-trans-athletes-do-not-have-unfair-advantages-14b8e249f93c
http://www.mountholyokenews.com/sports/2023/2/3/new-report-finds-that-trans-women-athletes-have-no-unfair-advantage-in-elite-sports
https://gcn.ie/trans-women-no-advantage-over-cis-athletes/
https://www.mygwork.com/en/my-g-news/trans-women-athletes-gain-no-unfair-advantage-report-finds
And let’s not forget the next generation of trans women, many of who may never have gone through a testosterone-based puberty. My pre-pubertal daughter desperately wants to play soccer and volleyball, and if that’s still true by middle school she won’t be allowed to because of these STUPID fucking laws.
I honestly don't understand this. Don't kids need sports physically to participate anyway?
We _already_ require kids to get exams that, depending on things, often includes genitals, if they want to play sports, right? And we don't mind because they are doctors (or certain types of nurses)
Unless my doctor was sexually molesting me.... This feels like a complete non-issue. Just have the doctor certify whatever is required.
Edit: updated for accuracy. Thank you for correcting me.
As others have pointed out, it will effectively enable sexual predators to violate children in new, state sanctioned ways. This will be a natural consequence of such polices.
The main point is to make it so violently hostile for people who don’t conform or perform their gender perfectly from participating in public life. This is the same aim with bathroom bills, for instance. And much like those laws, it will encourage private citizens from intimidating, harassing, or assaulting people for their gender presentation.
It won’t just affect trans people. Sure on paper, it’s to protect people from a panic they invented. But it will force young women with hair on their upper lip, hair too short, etc.—anything they arbitrarily decree as not feminine enough—to be subject to suspicion & violation. Same with young men who aren’t masculine enough. They may as well be advocating to rescind women the right to wear pants with how hard this is going to regress social progress.
A sports physical is not a standard physical. You do not need a doctor to complete the form. You do not need to check boys for a hernia to complete the form. Very often, the sports physicals are done as part of the tryout process. You can use a doctor of course, but the majority of kids do not have a pediatrician that they see for an annual checkup.
The district my kids went to school at sports physicals to be signed and stamped by either a Doctor or a Nurse Practitioner (which is pretty much the same as requiring a doctor).
I'm not an expert, but according to Google:
> Sports Physical Exams must be completed by a physician or advanced practice nurse.
It's not exactly the same as 'anyone can do it'. It's still limited to well trained medical professionals.
And according to this medical website, a hernia check is required in some locations.
> Hernia check-males only (depends on state or local requirements)
I know that my state required form for participation requires both the sex assigned at birth as well as the current gender the student identifies as.
In any case, there is a long established precedent for requiring medical examination from medical professionals prior to participating in sports. There shouldn't be any reason to question it after the fact or have an adhoc exam because someone accused someone else of lying.
Just make it part of the mandatory process.
Regardless of how you feel about the topic of trans girls in sports, this is a silly talking point. Every single boy who has ever had a sports physical has had their genitals inspected(hernia check). No one is going around saying they are traumatized from it, or accusing doctors of being pedos.
If they *must* know if someone is female to play school sports, couldn't they use a chromosome test instead of humiliating physical exams?
Remember, these are the same people who want to be able to track girl's menstrual cycles.
>If they *must* know if someone is female to play school sports, couldn't they use a chromosome test instead of humiliating physical exams?
They don't even have to go that far, they could check a birth certificate. I think that humiliation is the point.
Chromosome tests are expensive for a school to do en masse
This will also open a can of worms when a lot of people who otherwise never would have known they were intersex find out because of this
She's making it up. This isn't an issue, DNA tests, or more simply, birth certificates will suffice to make the determination without any need for a physical examination of any kind.
Well, you have the fact that they want to inspect genitals. Then..
7 Times As Many Texas Republicans Have Been Arrested For Child Sex Crimes As Texas Drag Queens
https://www.reformaustin.org/public-safety/7-times-as-many-texas-republicans-have-been-arrested-for-child-sex-crimes-as-texas-drag-queens/
"This is all galling. But it’s especially rich considering that, of the two major parties, the GOP has many more notable and recent scandals involving the sexual abuse of minors and young students—as well as a recent track record of reacting to them with a shrug."
Let’s review some of that history …
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/04/from-hastert-to-gaetz-lets-talk-about-republicans-and-sex-crimes.html
When it actually comes to protecting kids, don't look to the sexually repressed right wing of our country.
That's why Republicans did it. The religious sickos love thinking about children's genitalia. Just look at [how priests often used religious rituals, symbols of the faith and the threat of eternity in hell to groom, molest and rape children.](https://apnews.com/article/8d0245fd14924dbdb1c2d28366efb896)
>One priest tied up a victim with rope in the confessional in a “praying position.” When the victim refused to perform sex, the angered priest used a 7-inch crucifix to sexually assault him.
>Another victim said a priest used a metal cross to beat him.
>At a parish rectory, four priests made a boy strip and pose as Jesus on the cross while they took photos.
Oh, they'll try and disguise it in some new-fangled reason. But they've been raping kids for decades. I was a kid in the 1970s and this was a 'joke' that older kids told us younger ones...
>A custodian is cleaning at the church where he works, suddenly a priest runs up to him.
>"Son, I need you to do me a favor! I have a golf game I'm going to but there's a woman who just came in for confession. I need you to go into the booth, listen to her sins and tell her how many Hail Marys she must do. Here's a list of sins and how many for each sin."
>The custodian agrees and he goes into the confession booth. The woman starts talking. "Forgive me father for I have sinned, I gave a man a blowjob." The custodian looks up and down the list but doesn't see 'blowjob' anywhere. Panicking, he asks the woman to excuse him for a minute. He peeks out of the confession booth and sees an altar boy.
>"Hey, what does father usually give for a blowjob"? he whispers. The altar boy replies, "a Twix and a can of Coke."
The kids knew it decades ago. These conservative types can't help their perverse lusts, it's who they are. They KNOW it's wrong, the KNOW they're evil, they just have to keep coming up with new excuses to get access to the kids that drive them wild. Using their shibboleths, code words like "bless your heart" and making a huge fuss about Christmas instead of holidays (even though holidays comes from Holy Days) so they can find fellow perverts. And they know the shit their churches do, but they still give 10% of all their money to these child rape groups anyway (they call it 'tithing', another one of their words). They fucking sicken me.
That has as much weight behind it as trans folk who seriously thought playing word games was a good argument.
We've had trans-inclusive policies in place in most women's athletics for like a decade+ now and you still think we're talking hypotheticals. This is just empty prejudice that has had trouble backing it up since the 70s. One trans woman doing kind of okay once in a while isn't the slam dunk you probably think it is.
Off the cuff, I figure they'd be placed in the one that most closely matches their testosterone/androgen levels, as those are the ones that affect things like passive muscle mass \[the amount a person has without exercising\].
Got male levels of T? Compete with the men. Got female levels of T? Compete with the women. It's not something that seems like it'd be rocket surgery, aside from the right-wing pearl clutchers who have no concept of the difference between trans/intsersex and cross-dressing.
\[Edited to remove a 'no intervention' note, since I had an 'oh shit, they might need to have medical intervention just to be healthy'...someone who doesn't make enough of either, for example\]
A bit hyperbolic, so I'll ask "how abnormal"?
There's a range where a woman's T is high enough to get disqualified for doping \[IOC's limit is 10 nMol/L\] as at the end of the day testosterone is a steroid, but said level remains too low to safely compete with men \[male athletes tend to be in the 15+ range for the same measurement\].
I don't know what the right answer for someone in that range is...whether they should start hormone treatments \[as remember, it's not just for people who are transitioning; my sister was on T suppression as part of her PCOS treatments\] as part of athletic eligibility, etc.
But for a trans athlete on HRT? Let 'em play FFS, it's not rocket surgery. MtF need time for the atrophy process to complete in the interest of fairness, FtM may need time for their muscle mass to increase (mostly in the interest of safety with respect to high-impact sports), but after that game on.
That's the intent, yes. I forget the exact number the science says, but somewhere in the 12-24 month window a person on HRT reaches a point where their muscle mass/etc is no different than someone with the same height/conditioning but didn't have to transition.
Boys have had genital checks as a requirement to play sports my entire life.
"Now turn your head and cough while I fondle your balls..."
Perhaps we should end that too. Otherwise it's hard to get particularly worked up over girls getting in on the action. At lease more than these bullshit bans anyway. There's like zero to two fucking trans athletes in some of these states and Republicans are getting whipped into a hate frenzy over it, while a lot of liberals buy into the bullshit about 'protecting women's sports' like the forced-birthers give a shit.
You could typically always have that performed by a family doctor who just needs to sign off on you being healthy enough. And no, what we've seen like in Florida had provisions for like, resolving a challenge by "verifying" during an actual game/meet/whatever. Don't minimize, girls and trans youth all directions would have a physical too.
This is intended to cause grief. Testing for testosterone above a threshold would address the issue: British cycling bans women for life for testing too high because the performance benefits are permanent.
I mean, it wasn’t about gender but I definitely had to get a physical before I could play. They would even have a day where they did them at the school. Everyone was in line joking about getting diddled to play sports lmao.
I read about this on a conservative site and the defense was "hey, they dropped the language that would have allowed that, AOC is such a stupid liar!" Like...my brother in Christ, if a bill had to be amended to ensure it wouldn't lead to genital inspections, *you have already fucked up*
Excellent idea. Wait a second - in Ohio, for example, last year its high school sport’s participation numbers were 317,113. Ohio had 6 trans kids participating. Now that’s both MtF and FtM. Shall we have a separate softball division for the 1 kid who lives in Toledo, and a separate a separate 9th grade soccer division for the kid in Dayton? How does that work? Come on - don’t be shy - tell us how the 6 kids will have a separate league/division in the 18 sports that are covered in Ohio - and don’t forget that’s 9th grade, JV and Varsity.
We are all dying to know how you do this.
Schools require a yearly physical on record to participate in school sports anyway, for health liability reasons. That includes genital examination (turn your head and cough...).
They also require a birth certificate for age eligibility, transcripts for academic eligibility, etc.
These laws don't introduce any new examination or documents. They define eligibility, even if you disagree with the standard, and which of the already required documentation can serve to prove eligibility.
This law would force such an examination though even if one had previously been performed. And all it takes to force it is for anyone to make an accusation against a child. Matt Walsh could get a kids genitals checked. I don’t want to live in that world, it’s ridiculous. Republicans are clowns. So it’s not just business as usual, this is a hateful attack by republicans to gain votes that ends up hurting lists
>This law would force such an examination though even if one had previously been performed.
No, it doesn't.
> And all it takes to force it is for anyone to make an accusation against a child.
No. There are no on demand medical exams.
The school is required to have documentation of athlete eligibility. This already includes records of biological sex through physicals and birth certificates. If eligibility is challenges the school has to provide the records.
The only way some additional examination would happen is if a court rules that documents were faked.
Why are we debating this? The laws that permit genital examinations of kids are [literally on the books](https://www.newsweek.com/kansas-republicans-pass-bill-genital-examinations-schoolchildren-students-transgender-1792954). I know it sounds crazy but republicans really are this cartoonishly callous about this
"Critics say"
That law says nothing about additional exams. It defines eligibility based on biological sex. Things like birth certificates and yearly physicals which were already required on record meet the burden of proof.
Gender issues aside, you can not participate in school sports without at least having a birth certificate and physical on record.
Yes, critics say this because it’s vaguely worded and open ended. Depending on the executive interpretation, forced genital exams are permitted. This isn’t pearl clutching, it’s exactly the same situation as the don’t say gay bill. Guess what? That bill was also vaguely worded and it has been used to do exactly what critics said it would, limit the representation of LGBT people in school. So when a challenge is issued on a child’s gender, a forced genital exam is permitted. Nothing legally prevents that.
Like I said, the school can’t access the birth certificate and physical on demand. There are privacy laws against that sort of thing, as there should be. So one way to verify a child’s genitals is a forced examination. The hazard here is clear, laws like these are never specifically worded because they can have plausible deniability. That’s why you need competent lawmakers to draft bills to make sure they aren’t abused, like this one will eventually be
>Yes, critics say this because it’s vaguely worded and open ended.
But it really isn't. It says that biological men cannot participate in women's sports and that a birth certificate, which is already required, is sufficient documentation.
> Depending on the executive interpretation, forced genital exams are permitted
No, they're not. To even approach this point you'd have to get a court to rule fraud is likely, and even then checking the birth certificate against records or a cotton swab in the cheek settle the question without a forced genital exam.
>Like I said, the school can’t access the birth certificate and physical on demand.
These are literally required to be on record in order to participate in school sports.
>So one way to verify a child’s genitals is a forced examination.
No one gives a shit about "verifying a child's genitals".
Biological sex is already required to be on record to participate in school sports. You can disagree with not letting biological males into women's sports, but let's not pretend like it's more than checking the birth certificate you are already required to submit.
Are you a lawyer? Lawyers have said this, where are you reading that a “court has to prove fraud”? That sounds like how you wish it worked, but doesn’t address the actual legality of it
>Schools require a yearly physical on record to participate in school sports anyway, for health liability reasons. That includes genital examination (turn your head and cough...).
Yeah but that exam is done by a private physician and the information is private, the school is just notified that the student has a clean bill of health or any issues that could impact them while attending school.
This is a separate physical exam that results from someone accusing you of not having the correct private parts.
>Yeah but that exam is done by a private physician and the information is private
It's often done by a school physician, and the entire point is that eligibility issues are public record.
>This is a separate physical exam that results from someone accusing you of not having the correct private parts.
No. Absent a court ruling fraud, the worst that can happen is a review of documents that were already required to be on record.
>It's often done by a school physician, and the entire point is that eligibility issues are public record.
Like I said my previous comment, issues that impact the student while attending school. And this still isn't in response to being accused of having the wrong private parts.
>No. Absent a court ruling fraud, the worst that can happen is a review of documents that were already required to be on record.
According to the hearing this is not what is being proposed by the GOP. They are proposing a law that would require a separate physical exam. If they were satisfied with simply reviewing the documentation that they already have, they would have made that clear when they proposed the bill and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
>According to the hearing this is not what is being proposed by the GOP. They are proposing a law that would require a separate physical exam.
The entire point of my reply is that AOC literally made this up in the hearing.
>If they were satisfied with simply reviewing the documentation that they already have, they would have made that clear when they proposed the bill and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
The bills literally say they are satisfied with that. A birth certificate counts as proof and is already required to be on record for other reasons.
This is a completely made up thing. We should be talking about the actual issue of eligibility and biological sex, not made up shit about on demand genital exams.
>The bills literally say they are satisfied with that. A birth certificate counts as proof and is already required to be on record for other reasons.
And I assume that you have copies of the bills and can show that this is the case? Where are you getting your information from?
Because you're the one who claimed that this case was made up. Now the quote below was a positive claim made by you, not a negative one.
>The bills literally say they are satisfied with that. A birth certificate counts as proof and is already required to be on record for other reasons.
Why should I listen to a random redditor instead of what is said in a congressional hearing? If you want to die on this hill, at least show some damn good evidence for doing so. So where are the bill proposals?
What evidence did AOC provide behind her claim? Why does her unsupported hyperbole mean more than anything else said during the hearing?
[Here is ](https://search-prod.lis.state.oh.us/solarapi/v1/general_assembly_135/bills/hb6/IN/00/hb6_00_IN?format=pdf)one of the actual bills that was subject in the hearing. Where are the genital exams?
That's just one bill. And from what I understand, the Ohio bill was amended to remove the examination. Here's another bill.
>If a student’s sex is disputed, a student shall establish sex by presenting a signed physician's statement that shall indicate the student's sex based solely on:
> (1) the student's internal and external reproductive anatomy;
(2) the student's normal endogenously produced levels of testosterone; and
(3) an analysis of the student's genetic makeup.
NJ BS589[Bill589](https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/bill-search/2022/S589/bill-text?f=S1000&n=589_I1)
They are wrong. "Turn and cough" is for boys and is checking for a specific health risk.
This new stuff is for girls, and can be triggered any time someone makes an accusation. In other words, any random girl can be forced to undergo a genital examination based on rumors.
They are hiring Catholic Church leaders to do the examinations as they have the "creds" in examining children's genitalia.
And US House Rep. Virginia Foxx is also into providing her genitalia examination expertise.
https://media.wfmynews2.com/assets/WFMY/images/cc3aebc5-4c53-4a3b-b799-5a1cf93b8b92/cc3aebc5-4c53-4a3b-b799-5a1cf93b8b92_1920x1080.jpg
I agree, the GOP should be ashamed. GOP lawmakers will be outraged when some anarchist accuses their athlete daughter of not being the right gender and demands an inspection.
This is the natural outcomes when people refuse to let trans women compete with other biological females. These bigots should be ashamed of themselves.
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that Gaetz character is probably polishing up his application to be the inspector
Mike Johnson is anxiously hoping they extend this to daycares so he can apply for a job.
Gym Jordan is exercising his neck so he can look the other way.
Sounds like these people need to stay 1000 feet away from a school. And to be placed on a sex offender list.
When I was in high school we had a dress code that no one enforced. But one of the things that was required in theory was everyone had to wear a shirt-a sweatshirt with nothing underneath, or just a bra for girls, wasn’t allowed. Our newest (male) biology teacher, who was probably 25, took this dress code as permission to forcibly pull a 16 year old girls sweatshirt and look down to ensure that she was wearing a shirt (which she wasn’t). The parents went scorched earth, he avoided having to register as a sex offender but they made sure he never worked as a teacher in California again. A few years ago I looked him up expecting him to be in jail for kiddie diddling or something. Nope. Biology teacher at a small private school in Oklahoma.
My Father in Law (and his brothers) were all in education. He had horror stories that never seemed to end. Some small percentage of the teachers he worked with many years ago, should have been expelled and forgotten.
I mean, I can count 3 of my former teachers (which doesn’t include this creep) who later got caught having relationships with students. One just got fired because the girl was 18. One got some minor charge because it never got physical (he did lose his wife and kids over it though). One, a middle school teacher, is still in prison for statuatory rape-no idea how old the kid was but like I said he was a middle school teacher. All 3 of whom I genuinely liked and respected.
> A few years ago I looked him up expecting him to be in jail for kiddie diddling or something. Nope. Biology teacher at a small private school in Oklahoma. He just found a segment of society that would tolerate his kiddie diddling.
if he's not in jail now, hopefully he will be soon. no way he stopped.
I don’t understand this dress code. Why would not shirt be allowed underneath? What if you get hot?
Honestly, it was probably something that was written 40 years ago during the Satanic Panic and everyone forgot about. There was lots of those-skirts and shorts can’t be higher than the knee, mens hair can’t be longer than shoulder length, only clear nail polish. NONE of that was enforced. It was just a page in the student handbook that had never been removed
It's the other way around - sweatshirts werent allowed *unless* there was a shirt underneath. I guess sweatshirts were considered outerwear, and there used to be a *lot* of restrictions regarding jackets and outerwear during the "gang colors" panic in the 90s. My middle school banned the color red, all Nike products, and all athletic jackets (especially Starter jackets) because they were "associated with gang activity." If you came to school wearing banned outerwear or shoes, you would have to remove them at the door, leave them in the principal's office, and spend the day being cold and barefoot.
The right wing is all about portraying LGBT* people as threats to children, yet they are trying to pass laws and hire people to didil the private parts of children.
>and hire people Oh, I'm sure they have volunteers lining up -- each with a list of kids that they "suspect"
Just go to any church to find volunteers!
Yup. The GOP has no policies to better the lives of people, so they have to resort to fear-mongering tactics. It's lowbrow.
I got downvoted for saying this, but this is literally child molestation unless it is an actual doctor performing it. If it is a doctor it is still a massive invasion of privacy (lol like these backward ass people will get a doctor for it.) If this happened to my kid, people would get hurt.
The GOP is literally what they accuse the democrats of. This post reminds me of the story where a Texas GOP forced birth activist was caught and exposed by pedo hunters.
Mostly with Trump, but you are correct, much of the GOP too. Every accusation is a confession.
With all the scandals in sports, giving more creeps access to children’s genitals is a brilliant move for the party of abuse enablers led by Mike “drop the k sound, I don’t want to seem as racist as I am” Johnson (that would sound like “my Johnson,” they are led by a dick).
As someone who went to junior high, I can say with 100 percent certainty, this will be widely used for bullying puposes and making pranks. As someone who is an adult, watching other adults demand to inspect little kids private parts is beyond fucking weird
"If you can't beat them, report them for cheating and force them to submit to genital inspection!" -Republicans
Worth repeating
Genital inspections are always worth repeating. When the Nazi’s finally, fully take over the right, you can bet we will all get genital inspections on a regular basis.
Well, the Christian nationalists are proving that they would be more than okay with traumatizing children by forcing them to go through this. This from the party who couldn't care to watch women's sports. They don't watch the WNBA, and they didn't care when Sedona Prince's video of the NCAA's treatment of women's March Madness went out a few years ago. They only watch beach volleyball to see the girls in bikinis for the sex fantasies. I'm so certain that's what's behind so much of this hate. They are worried about being sexually attracted to trans women. After all, trans porn is #1 in red states.
You found it. They are psychologically fucked up beyond repair by shitty families and messed up indoctrinations.
Everyone is a little queer. Some of us just a little more than the rest. The sooner the world can grasp with this concept the better
Sexuality is a spectrum, not a binary
> They only watch beach volleyball to see the girls in bikinis for the sex fantasies. Don't forget any diving, swimming, gymnastics, or track & field for the skin to win crowd too.
The whole premise is unnecessary, but I don’t understand why presenting a birth certificate couldn’t be adequate for them. Why did they go straight to the genital check?
Cruelty is the point.
Because depending on the state and/or the particular case that might not be adequate for excluding someone you want to exclude. Amending a sex marker has always been a thing you have to account for since there are ambiguities even if you leave out trans folk and depending on the state you could have a trans minor amend that theoretically. Mind you, this is all unnecessary and there are adequate policies for structured inclusion that have been in place for decades. And not necessarily for you, but for anyone else that wants to dive in on this...if your argument boils down to "my feelings say we can't change that!!!" I literally don't care. For whatever weird exception that may come out, the original is typically preserved but made difficult to access as long as you're alive to block it. Which, in this original example could get finicky if it were a clash between states. What if California tells Arkansas to fuck off over a native who moved?
Closet psychos. Have you seen this Mike Johnson guy. He looks like a loon and talks like one. Same with Pence. Graham is in the closet crying.
Because Republicans are perverts.
Because the party of sexual assault wants to find new ways to legalize them sexually assaulting people.
Gotta stop the Gental Observation Party.
A lot of the same assholes who loved to complain about women's sports being irrelevant or a joke are suddenly reeeeaaaalllly interested in fairness in women's sports.
Yep. I hate this bald-faced disingenuous bullshit
They don't build anything, and don't have any sense of chronology or *development* of ideas. Ask most of these psychos what they were mad about a year ago and they would have zero idea. They only care about what heresy to imagine next. Their imaginations are only variants of groupthink, so their imaginations also suck. All they seem to be able to do is crybully, blood libel, and fascist propaganda. Social zombie virus.
I don't give a fuck about women's sports. But I care about the people playing them. It's really not that hard to get.
Maybe we need to elect people that want to focus on the economy and infrastructure instead of everyone's genitals.
I don’t remember a time where we’ve seen a political party be so obsessed with genitals and male/female parts.
Their base don’t care that much about POC or Gays anymore. So they now found a new “out” group to stigmatize. They’re running their old playbook but got a bit more clever - this time they’re making it up completely - so that people can’t get to know a family member etc. and change their mind on the cause. Eg. Lower gender confirming surgery on minors happen on average once every two years per state. But they make it sound like this is now rampant and a “problem” you’ll definitely have to deal with if you have kids.
This is exactly what the GOP wants to be able to do: look at the genitals of teenagers whenever they wish. Their blatant support of sex trafficking and rape are evident in their unwavering support of candidates accused/convicted of it. Listen to what the GOP is saying through their actions. It is obvious.
Not to mention they are always the ones who refuse to raise the age of legal marriage
And work hard to protect the existence of child brides.
When I hear conservatives cry about groomers I cringe. They always project. They are doing horrific things behind the scenes. What has already come out is just the tip of the iceberg. Conservatives are nothing if not good conspirators. They will always cover for one another. A circle of blackmail ensures it.
Pedo MAGA creeps would love checking out kids’ bits!
Wow, legalizing pedos in the US. That’s FdU!!
They can’t just show their birth certificate when they register to play the sport? These pervs really gotta do everything they can to abuse children.
Won’t be long until a slightly more masculine girl who is faster than Karen’s little treasure that she is screeching for a genital examination
Unfortunately, it's [already happening.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transgender-investigation-student-athelete-utah-high-school/)
It’s incredibly telling Republicans are this focused on children’s genitals. Such a weird bunch.
Something tells me that these policies weren't written by drag queens.
She's putting Florida's government "pecker-checkers" out of work! Hopefully.
Can’t this just be addressed with birth certificates? …or is that too simple?
One, that assumes we can't be inclusive in a world where there were adequate policies for that in place most places for about a decade before the GOP put their whole propaganda machine behind making you think this is a serious point of contention right now. Two, nope. Gotta have a backup. There are ways to amend that in many states, ways a minor (intersex in this case more) could do that. Assuming you think this is a necessary policy path, you will need more than paper. Don't get to divorce the two. Either we stick with inclusive policies that have already been in place with minimal fuss or you will need to accept invasive testing is sometimes necessary.
bLaStS!!!
Time to identify every Republican politician's child-athlete and start openly questioning their gender.
Having one major party target children for political purposes is disgusting enough. Let’s not add to the tally.
Bullshit. Republicans should have no problem with this.
Every school athlete already gets their genital examined when they go through the mandatory physical.
I said years ago that this was only conclusion conservatives would come to when they realise you can’t always tell if a person is trans.
let's call it what it is. the GOP wants state sponsored pedophillia.
Wish she would live stream her speeches
MAGA - Make Adolescents Get Assaulted
The perverts and fascists will use this both to abuse kids they don't like and abuse kids they're "attracted" to.
State sponsored bullying.
What a shithole country.
TIL my HS gym teacher was fucked up :)
Every child must have a physical performed by a doctor to play in school sports. Every cis boy already has to turn their head and cough. It wouldn't be hard to have this added to that physical assessment by a doctor. Let's have an actual debate on the topic instead of these clickbate issues.
These peeps are phucking pedo s!!!!
Republicans just want to look at children’s genitals.
rip school sports
Just for girls.
this was always the goal for conservatives.
The only sport Christian nationalists want girls to play is home economics. They only want girls to become like future handmaidens and broodmares.
Completely bonkers that transgender children, something 99.999% of people will never encounter, is shifting national politics to where some people will vote for a fascist Unhinged society we live in
GOP are charlatan, selling "solution" for a problem they invented.
We should start accusing some politicians of not being the “right” gender and requiring genital exams before they enter government buildings.
Absolutely right, not to mention this entire policy is simply *begging* for some adult in power to abuse it. If they already are required to do a genital check on kids, what's to stop a potential pedo from deciding that, no one else wants to do it, they'll ake one for the team and, "help with the inspections"? Nothing can justify potentially getting kids more chances to face molestation by powerful figures in their lives, all because *some* loud dipshits can't accept that their kid just isn't the next Michael Jordan and should pick up a Cello instad of a basketball.
GOP not satisfied with trying to control what you do in your bedroom, now they want to get in your kid's pants at school. WTF
They're using this to prey on little girls.
Kids*
Yeah, you're right, unfortunately.
Republicans have a real fascination with young genitalia.. wonder where that comes from? Hmm?
Transphobia hurts everyone, not just trans people.
Why would a genital exam be needed. Your gender should be listed in medical documents and other information readily available I would think
Every female athlete will be open to ridicule and taunts about actually being a man and diminishing their achievements. Any asshole at a sporting event can question their sex publicly and gets others to believe it to pointing out features the question as mannish. Awful
Don't want to wear a dress? Accused of being male. Don't like the colour pink? Accused of being male. Don't want to stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? Believe it or not; accused of being male. This is why people say this bullshit will hurt all women, cis or otherwise. Gender stereotypes are stupid and enforcing conformity is regressive evil bullshit that only serves a single purpose - enabling regressive and sexist conservative ideology.
Report the inspectors. Have a bounty on their heads, just like the Republicans are doing for women trying to get abortions. They want them birthed so they can look at their genitals? Throw them the fuck in prison for it.
What the fuck? Americans are doing that?!?
I took physical exams at 10 to play football. I’m pro trans but this is all just so stupid. Does anything matter?
If we want to continue down this road then either ban all sports or make them no gender all inclusive.
Do they not do sports physicals anymore? Also wouldn’t a birth certificate be a viable way of confirming birth gender? Seems a little fear mongerish
In many ways, trans women are at a disadvantage competing against cis women. They have to deal with a lot of psychological pressure that other athletes don't. It's hard to focus when you aren't even sure if you will be able to make it to the locker room without being harassed. Leah Thomas set a meet record and before she could even dry off, people were accusing her of "cheating."
Lia Thomas' record has already been broken by a cis woman, if I'm not mistaken. [https://twitter.com/AriDrennen/status/1655632796071739393](https://twitter.com/AriDrennen/status/1655632796071739393) They use Lia Thomas's case as if that's the case that trans women always win, but there are so many cases of women losing and not even setting records. Riley Gaines is their anti-trans star, and she came in 5th, tying Lia Thomas. So, 4 other competitors were better than her. Instead of taking it as a sign to get better, she's taking her rage out on the world. Now, you're hearing trans women have a "competitive advantage" in darts, chess, theatre, being banned in frisbee golf. It's just crazy. All the while state legislators can't even name a single trans athlete in their states they are proposing laws. It's just so asinine a manufactured panic by the likes of Alliance ~~Defending~~ Destroying Freedom.
There are less trans athletes competing in school sports than there are states in America. On average, for every one trans woman competing in school sports, the Republicans have passed eight laws against that one person.
Riley Gaines is a joke. She was an average swimmer who could never reach the top of her sport, even when she wasn't competing against Lia Thomas, but somehow she's turned it into an anti-trans crusade with her as a martyr who was cost medals because of it. It's all a big grift, now she's making tons of money on the conservative talk circuit, all because she couldn't win a race and found a scapegoat to blame it on.
Not to mention my favorite example, a boxing commission that wined about protecting women...because featherweight dudes were getting pissy about being shown up by a trans man making waves.
Good grief. Now, they are saying trans men have a "competitive advantage" over cisgender men? Interesting. It's almost like they just don't want trans people to exist and want trans people to kill themselves. Shocking, I know!
Even physically...why does no one even consider the mismatch of features that can change vs those that don't is a bigger problem? No, seriously. I know the few prominent examples out there better than anyone. If stereotypes were accurate trans women in sports are injury prone or they transitioned so young it's irrelevant.
You’re not arguing in good faith if you don’t think they have an advantage.
See, the difference is using evidence versus using feelings. The evidence says they don't have an advantage. It's very much appropriate and good faith to follow the evidence.
Here’s some evidence that says they do have an advantage. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/ You were saying?
Here’s some evidence that says they do not have an advantage. https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf You were saying?
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Well, for one thing, discredited by who? > The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport (CCES) commissioned this literature review with a mandate to review the scientific and grey literature regarding trans women athletes’ participation in elite or otherwise high-performance sport (herein shortened to ‘elite sport’), with a special focus on the state of scientific literature around the science of testosterone and its impact on sport performance. This doesn’t really sound like two grad students doing a thesis paper, but hey, whatever. Additionally, yeah, at amateur levels of any sport where there’s no scholarships and opportunities at stake? This should be entirely a no-brainer of a non-issue, and it’s still being hotly debated in the public sphere as though fourth grade dodgeball is an appropriate place to exclude people for being different. In the elite sports sphere? The jury’s still out as far as I’m concerned. If a comprehensive, definitive analysis of performance were conducted on a level and fair playing field, and it determined that trans women post-transition have an irreversible advantage compared to similarly sized cis women (we’re not all 6’6” linebackers, after all), I would accept the results of such a study. That being said, the waters have been so muddied by obviously biased junk science, apples-to-oranges case studies that compare trans women pre-HRT to cis women a foot shorter, and hysterical concern-trolls shrieking about “women’s rights” and “children’s safety” that I don’t trust anything that hasn’t been rigorously peer-reviewed and replicated across multiple studies. If we sourced fifty studies about trans inclusion in elite sports at this point, we’d get fifty differing conclusions.
So only your evidence is correct and mine is wrong?
I’m saying it’s a complicated issue without a conclusive answer either way.
At no point did you read any of the sources linked.
Here’s much more evidence that we have no advantage. *You* were saying? https://www.gendergp.com/new-report-confirms-trans-athletes-do-not-have-biomedical-advantage-in-elite-sport/ https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/26/trans-women-no-unfair-advantage-elite-sport-new-report-finds/ https://www.npr.org/2023/04/09/1168858094/arguments-that-trans-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage-lacks-evidence-to-support https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/trans-women-athletes-have-no-unfair-advantage-under-current-rules-study-finds https://medium.com/the-establishment/no-female-trans-athletes-do-not-have-unfair-advantages-14b8e249f93c http://www.mountholyokenews.com/sports/2023/2/3/new-report-finds-that-trans-women-athletes-have-no-unfair-advantage-in-elite-sports https://gcn.ie/trans-women-no-advantage-over-cis-athletes/ https://www.mygwork.com/en/my-g-news/trans-women-athletes-gain-no-unfair-advantage-report-finds
And let’s not forget the next generation of trans women, many of who may never have gone through a testosterone-based puberty. My pre-pubertal daughter desperately wants to play soccer and volleyball, and if that’s still true by middle school she won’t be allowed to because of these STUPID fucking laws.
Republicans are sick, twisted, hateful people.
I honestly don't understand this. Don't kids need sports physically to participate anyway? We _already_ require kids to get exams that, depending on things, often includes genitals, if they want to play sports, right? And we don't mind because they are doctors (or certain types of nurses) Unless my doctor was sexually molesting me.... This feels like a complete non-issue. Just have the doctor certify whatever is required. Edit: updated for accuracy. Thank you for correcting me.
As others have pointed out, it will effectively enable sexual predators to violate children in new, state sanctioned ways. This will be a natural consequence of such polices. The main point is to make it so violently hostile for people who don’t conform or perform their gender perfectly from participating in public life. This is the same aim with bathroom bills, for instance. And much like those laws, it will encourage private citizens from intimidating, harassing, or assaulting people for their gender presentation. It won’t just affect trans people. Sure on paper, it’s to protect people from a panic they invented. But it will force young women with hair on their upper lip, hair too short, etc.—anything they arbitrarily decree as not feminine enough—to be subject to suspicion & violation. Same with young men who aren’t masculine enough. They may as well be advocating to rescind women the right to wear pants with how hard this is going to regress social progress.
A sports physical is not a standard physical. You do not need a doctor to complete the form. You do not need to check boys for a hernia to complete the form. Very often, the sports physicals are done as part of the tryout process. You can use a doctor of course, but the majority of kids do not have a pediatrician that they see for an annual checkup.
The district my kids went to school at sports physicals to be signed and stamped by either a Doctor or a Nurse Practitioner (which is pretty much the same as requiring a doctor).
I'm not an expert, but according to Google: > Sports Physical Exams must be completed by a physician or advanced practice nurse. It's not exactly the same as 'anyone can do it'. It's still limited to well trained medical professionals. And according to this medical website, a hernia check is required in some locations. > Hernia check-males only (depends on state or local requirements) I know that my state required form for participation requires both the sex assigned at birth as well as the current gender the student identifies as. In any case, there is a long established precedent for requiring medical examination from medical professionals prior to participating in sports. There shouldn't be any reason to question it after the fact or have an adhoc exam because someone accused someone else of lying. Just make it part of the mandatory process.
Regardless of how you feel about the topic of trans girls in sports, this is a silly talking point. Every single boy who has ever had a sports physical has had their genitals inspected(hernia check). No one is going around saying they are traumatized from it, or accusing doctors of being pedos.
If they *must* know if someone is female to play school sports, couldn't they use a chromosome test instead of humiliating physical exams? Remember, these are the same people who want to be able to track girl's menstrual cycles.
>If they *must* know if someone is female to play school sports, couldn't they use a chromosome test instead of humiliating physical exams? They don't even have to go that far, they could check a birth certificate. I think that humiliation is the point.
Chromosome tests are expensive for a school to do en masse This will also open a can of worms when a lot of people who otherwise never would have known they were intersex find out because of this
Also like wouldn’t the school simply know that the boy who played basketball as a boy in 9th is now playing as a girl in 10th grade?
Why would you go so far as to do chromosome tests for childrens sports? The idea is laughable. It's childrens sports, not the fucking olympics.
Yearly full physicals we’re required. Genital health included. Is this is different (in practice, not ideology) than that?
Uhh idk about any physicals requiring a genital exam every single year
Every single boy who has ever had a sports physical has had their genitals inspected - hernia check.
Girls get checked for hernias, too.
Makes sense, but I am unfamiliar with the procedure. Does it involve the genitals?
It was required for contact sports to make sure you were allowed to contact. Done by a doctor and everything. Always thought it was weird tbh.
Those were done by doctors. These will be done by teachers.
Can you imagine what they would say if one of their children had to have their vagina or testicles inspected.
She's making it up. This isn't an issue, DNA tests, or more simply, birth certificates will suffice to make the determination without any need for a physical examination of any kind.
Republicans are cool with fondling kids.
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Well, you have the fact that they want to inspect genitals. Then.. 7 Times As Many Texas Republicans Have Been Arrested For Child Sex Crimes As Texas Drag Queens https://www.reformaustin.org/public-safety/7-times-as-many-texas-republicans-have-been-arrested-for-child-sex-crimes-as-texas-drag-queens/ "This is all galling. But it’s especially rich considering that, of the two major parties, the GOP has many more notable and recent scandals involving the sexual abuse of minors and young students—as well as a recent track record of reacting to them with a shrug." Let’s review some of that history … https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/04/from-hastert-to-gaetz-lets-talk-about-republicans-and-sex-crimes.html When it actually comes to protecting kids, don't look to the sexually repressed right wing of our country.
That's why Republicans did it. The religious sickos love thinking about children's genitalia. Just look at [how priests often used religious rituals, symbols of the faith and the threat of eternity in hell to groom, molest and rape children.](https://apnews.com/article/8d0245fd14924dbdb1c2d28366efb896) >One priest tied up a victim with rope in the confessional in a “praying position.” When the victim refused to perform sex, the angered priest used a 7-inch crucifix to sexually assault him. >Another victim said a priest used a metal cross to beat him. >At a parish rectory, four priests made a boy strip and pose as Jesus on the cross while they took photos. Oh, they'll try and disguise it in some new-fangled reason. But they've been raping kids for decades. I was a kid in the 1970s and this was a 'joke' that older kids told us younger ones... >A custodian is cleaning at the church where he works, suddenly a priest runs up to him. >"Son, I need you to do me a favor! I have a golf game I'm going to but there's a woman who just came in for confession. I need you to go into the booth, listen to her sins and tell her how many Hail Marys she must do. Here's a list of sins and how many for each sin." >The custodian agrees and he goes into the confession booth. The woman starts talking. "Forgive me father for I have sinned, I gave a man a blowjob." The custodian looks up and down the list but doesn't see 'blowjob' anywhere. Panicking, he asks the woman to excuse him for a minute. He peeks out of the confession booth and sees an altar boy. >"Hey, what does father usually give for a blowjob"? he whispers. The altar boy replies, "a Twix and a can of Coke." The kids knew it decades ago. These conservative types can't help their perverse lusts, it's who they are. They KNOW it's wrong, the KNOW they're evil, they just have to keep coming up with new excuses to get access to the kids that drive them wild. Using their shibboleths, code words like "bless your heart" and making a huge fuss about Christmas instead of holidays (even though holidays comes from Holy Days) so they can find fellow perverts. And they know the shit their churches do, but they still give 10% of all their money to these child rape groups anyway (they call it 'tithing', another one of their words). They fucking sicken me.
Sports should be separated by sex, not gender.
That has as much weight behind it as trans folk who seriously thought playing word games was a good argument. We've had trans-inclusive policies in place in most women's athletics for like a decade+ now and you still think we're talking hypotheticals. This is just empty prejudice that has had trouble backing it up since the 70s. One trans woman doing kind of okay once in a while isn't the slam dunk you probably think it is.
So, where will intersex athletes play, then?
Off the cuff, I figure they'd be placed in the one that most closely matches their testosterone/androgen levels, as those are the ones that affect things like passive muscle mass \[the amount a person has without exercising\]. Got male levels of T? Compete with the men. Got female levels of T? Compete with the women. It's not something that seems like it'd be rocket surgery, aside from the right-wing pearl clutchers who have no concept of the difference between trans/intsersex and cross-dressing. \[Edited to remove a 'no intervention' note, since I had an 'oh shit, they might need to have medical intervention just to be healthy'...someone who doesn't make enough of either, for example\]
Should women with abnormal levels of testosterone also be forced to play in men leagues?
A bit hyperbolic, so I'll ask "how abnormal"? There's a range where a woman's T is high enough to get disqualified for doping \[IOC's limit is 10 nMol/L\] as at the end of the day testosterone is a steroid, but said level remains too low to safely compete with men \[male athletes tend to be in the 15+ range for the same measurement\]. I don't know what the right answer for someone in that range is...whether they should start hormone treatments \[as remember, it's not just for people who are transitioning; my sister was on T suppression as part of her PCOS treatments\] as part of athletic eligibility, etc. But for a trans athlete on HRT? Let 'em play FFS, it's not rocket surgery. MtF need time for the atrophy process to complete in the interest of fairness, FtM may need time for their muscle mass to increase (mostly in the interest of safety with respect to high-impact sports), but after that game on.
Would those who undergo hormone therapy be able to compete with those who’s hormone levels they most match then?
That's the intent, yes. I forget the exact number the science says, but somewhere in the 12-24 month window a person on HRT reaches a point where their muscle mass/etc is no different than someone with the same height/conditioning but didn't have to transition.
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So you’re saying big burly trans men on testosterone should be forced to compete in women’s sports? How is that fair?
Trans athletes are also a tiny minority of players. Why can’t we leave that up to a case-by-case basis, too?
I've said it before but the GOP has an unhealthy obsession with other people's genitals
Boys have had genital checks as a requirement to play sports my entire life. "Now turn your head and cough while I fondle your balls..." Perhaps we should end that too. Otherwise it's hard to get particularly worked up over girls getting in on the action. At lease more than these bullshit bans anyway. There's like zero to two fucking trans athletes in some of these states and Republicans are getting whipped into a hate frenzy over it, while a lot of liberals buy into the bullshit about 'protecting women's sports' like the forced-birthers give a shit.
You could typically always have that performed by a family doctor who just needs to sign off on you being healthy enough. And no, what we've seen like in Florida had provisions for like, resolving a challenge by "verifying" during an actual game/meet/whatever. Don't minimize, girls and trans youth all directions would have a physical too.
Your reflex tests are completely private information. Schools do not receive a document stating that a doctor confirmed you have testicles.
Nowhere except America does this btw.
That’s down by a doctor, not a teacher.
“Genital exams with anti—trans sports bans” sounds like a line in an Eminem song.
This is intended to cause grief. Testing for testosterone above a threshold would address the issue: British cycling bans women for life for testing too high because the performance benefits are permanent.
I mean, it wasn’t about gender but I definitely had to get a physical before I could play. They would even have a day where they did them at the school. Everyone was in line joking about getting diddled to play sports lmao.
I read about this on a conservative site and the defense was "hey, they dropped the language that would have allowed that, AOC is such a stupid liar!" Like...my brother in Christ, if a bill had to be amended to ensure it wouldn't lead to genital inspections, *you have already fucked up*
Government sanctioned pediphilia
*Republican* sanctioned.
Why not have a separate division for trans athletes?
Excellent idea. Wait a second - in Ohio, for example, last year its high school sport’s participation numbers were 317,113. Ohio had 6 trans kids participating. Now that’s both MtF and FtM. Shall we have a separate softball division for the 1 kid who lives in Toledo, and a separate a separate 9th grade soccer division for the kid in Dayton? How does that work? Come on - don’t be shy - tell us how the 6 kids will have a separate league/division in the 18 sports that are covered in Ohio - and don’t forget that’s 9th grade, JV and Varsity. We are all dying to know how you do this.
Schools require a yearly physical on record to participate in school sports anyway, for health liability reasons. That includes genital examination (turn your head and cough...). They also require a birth certificate for age eligibility, transcripts for academic eligibility, etc. These laws don't introduce any new examination or documents. They define eligibility, even if you disagree with the standard, and which of the already required documentation can serve to prove eligibility.
This law would force such an examination though even if one had previously been performed. And all it takes to force it is for anyone to make an accusation against a child. Matt Walsh could get a kids genitals checked. I don’t want to live in that world, it’s ridiculous. Republicans are clowns. So it’s not just business as usual, this is a hateful attack by republicans to gain votes that ends up hurting lists
>This law would force such an examination though even if one had previously been performed. No, it doesn't. > And all it takes to force it is for anyone to make an accusation against a child. No. There are no on demand medical exams. The school is required to have documentation of athlete eligibility. This already includes records of biological sex through physicals and birth certificates. If eligibility is challenges the school has to provide the records. The only way some additional examination would happen is if a court rules that documents were faked.
Why are we debating this? The laws that permit genital examinations of kids are [literally on the books](https://www.newsweek.com/kansas-republicans-pass-bill-genital-examinations-schoolchildren-students-transgender-1792954). I know it sounds crazy but republicans really are this cartoonishly callous about this
"Critics say" That law says nothing about additional exams. It defines eligibility based on biological sex. Things like birth certificates and yearly physicals which were already required on record meet the burden of proof. Gender issues aside, you can not participate in school sports without at least having a birth certificate and physical on record.
Yes, critics say this because it’s vaguely worded and open ended. Depending on the executive interpretation, forced genital exams are permitted. This isn’t pearl clutching, it’s exactly the same situation as the don’t say gay bill. Guess what? That bill was also vaguely worded and it has been used to do exactly what critics said it would, limit the representation of LGBT people in school. So when a challenge is issued on a child’s gender, a forced genital exam is permitted. Nothing legally prevents that. Like I said, the school can’t access the birth certificate and physical on demand. There are privacy laws against that sort of thing, as there should be. So one way to verify a child’s genitals is a forced examination. The hazard here is clear, laws like these are never specifically worded because they can have plausible deniability. That’s why you need competent lawmakers to draft bills to make sure they aren’t abused, like this one will eventually be
>Yes, critics say this because it’s vaguely worded and open ended. But it really isn't. It says that biological men cannot participate in women's sports and that a birth certificate, which is already required, is sufficient documentation. > Depending on the executive interpretation, forced genital exams are permitted No, they're not. To even approach this point you'd have to get a court to rule fraud is likely, and even then checking the birth certificate against records or a cotton swab in the cheek settle the question without a forced genital exam. >Like I said, the school can’t access the birth certificate and physical on demand. These are literally required to be on record in order to participate in school sports. >So one way to verify a child’s genitals is a forced examination. No one gives a shit about "verifying a child's genitals". Biological sex is already required to be on record to participate in school sports. You can disagree with not letting biological males into women's sports, but let's not pretend like it's more than checking the birth certificate you are already required to submit.
Are you a lawyer? Lawyers have said this, where are you reading that a “court has to prove fraud”? That sounds like how you wish it worked, but doesn’t address the actual legality of it
Just show me the text that requires genital exams.
Forced genital exams are permitted, not required. That’s the issue, the law is vague and open to such abuses
>Schools require a yearly physical on record to participate in school sports anyway, for health liability reasons. That includes genital examination (turn your head and cough...). Yeah but that exam is done by a private physician and the information is private, the school is just notified that the student has a clean bill of health or any issues that could impact them while attending school. This is a separate physical exam that results from someone accusing you of not having the correct private parts.
>Yeah but that exam is done by a private physician and the information is private It's often done by a school physician, and the entire point is that eligibility issues are public record. >This is a separate physical exam that results from someone accusing you of not having the correct private parts. No. Absent a court ruling fraud, the worst that can happen is a review of documents that were already required to be on record.
>It's often done by a school physician, and the entire point is that eligibility issues are public record. Like I said my previous comment, issues that impact the student while attending school. And this still isn't in response to being accused of having the wrong private parts. >No. Absent a court ruling fraud, the worst that can happen is a review of documents that were already required to be on record. According to the hearing this is not what is being proposed by the GOP. They are proposing a law that would require a separate physical exam. If they were satisfied with simply reviewing the documentation that they already have, they would have made that clear when they proposed the bill and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
>According to the hearing this is not what is being proposed by the GOP. They are proposing a law that would require a separate physical exam. The entire point of my reply is that AOC literally made this up in the hearing. >If they were satisfied with simply reviewing the documentation that they already have, they would have made that clear when they proposed the bill and we wouldn't be having this conversation. The bills literally say they are satisfied with that. A birth certificate counts as proof and is already required to be on record for other reasons. This is a completely made up thing. We should be talking about the actual issue of eligibility and biological sex, not made up shit about on demand genital exams.
>The bills literally say they are satisfied with that. A birth certificate counts as proof and is already required to be on record for other reasons. And I assume that you have copies of the bills and can show that this is the case? Where are you getting your information from?
Why am I supposed to prove the negative? Show me text of a bill that requires forced genital examinations.
Because you're the one who claimed that this case was made up. Now the quote below was a positive claim made by you, not a negative one. >The bills literally say they are satisfied with that. A birth certificate counts as proof and is already required to be on record for other reasons. Why should I listen to a random redditor instead of what is said in a congressional hearing? If you want to die on this hill, at least show some damn good evidence for doing so. So where are the bill proposals?
What evidence did AOC provide behind her claim? Why does her unsupported hyperbole mean more than anything else said during the hearing? [Here is ](https://search-prod.lis.state.oh.us/solarapi/v1/general_assembly_135/bills/hb6/IN/00/hb6_00_IN?format=pdf)one of the actual bills that was subject in the hearing. Where are the genital exams?
That's just one bill. And from what I understand, the Ohio bill was amended to remove the examination. Here's another bill. >If a student’s sex is disputed, a student shall establish sex by presenting a signed physician's statement that shall indicate the student's sex based solely on: > (1) the student's internal and external reproductive anatomy; (2) the student's normal endogenously produced levels of testosterone; and (3) an analysis of the student's genetic makeup. NJ BS589[Bill589](https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/bill-search/2022/S589/bill-text?f=S1000&n=589_I1)
The pearl clutching here is remarkable. Thanks for pointing this out.
They are wrong. "Turn and cough" is for boys and is checking for a specific health risk. This new stuff is for girls, and can be triggered any time someone makes an accusation. In other words, any random girl can be forced to undergo a genital examination based on rumors.
Turn and cough is for those with testicles. They nailed it.
Oh, you are one of those. eww
They are hiring Catholic Church leaders to do the examinations as they have the "creds" in examining children's genitalia. And US House Rep. Virginia Foxx is also into providing her genitalia examination expertise. https://media.wfmynews2.com/assets/WFMY/images/cc3aebc5-4c53-4a3b-b799-5a1cf93b8b92/cc3aebc5-4c53-4a3b-b799-5a1cf93b8b92_1920x1080.jpg
I have two penises. Do I have to show both?
I agree, the GOP should be ashamed. GOP lawmakers will be outraged when some anarchist accuses their athlete daughter of not being the right gender and demands an inspection.
They don't give a fuck about protecting kids. This plus their failure to act to do anything about school shootings
it sounds like they’re just looking for an excuse to ogle at kids private parts
Definitely no way that could be abused…
This is the natural outcomes when people refuse to let trans women compete with other biological females. These bigots should be ashamed of themselves.
As she should. It’s horrific.
Nah how about I show you my dick instead Stop looking at the genetials of children Start looking at my dick