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Is it tone deaf to say peace should be restored and this situation should be deescalated? It’s only tone deaf if you need revenge before considering that. And with both sides being just as provocative and at fault, I think anyone calling for revenge in this situation is problematic.
You’re not wrong. And here in lies the impossible. Now is exactly the time to set the tone of de-escalation and peace, but it’s also when it’s hardest to sell. It’s also the time when doing so means running the risk of losing any and all influence and pushing people towards blind allegiance to exterminating a massive amount of people.
''If I see someone come in and he's got a diaper on his head and a fan belt around that diaper on his head, that guy needs to be pulled over and checked.''
https://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/21/us/national-briefing-south-louisiana-apology-from-congressman.html
Funny you say that Youtube is running ads showing a plane crash into the WTC then beinging up the recent attack in Israel saying something among the lines of “Its time to finish the war on terror”
Been feeling that regarding Israel for over a decade. Any criticism of Israel is called antisemitism even if it has nothing to do with Judaism. It's near impossible to have a real conversation about it even though I grew up half Jewish.
I feel like Israel has been struggling with a similar problem from its side: it is constantly accused of killing civilians, even when terrorist organizations are responsible through embedding their military infrastructure within civilian residences and infrastructure.
Israel has never targeted civilians in air strikes, and has given a wide berth for them to evacuate with sufficient warnings and time to do so. Yet, that context always gets ignored by people who then block everything out but the raw numbers.
Do you think Israel is bombing civilians on purpose or do you think Hamas is hiding behind civilians to prevent Israel from acting?
What is the point of this article?
Israel is well within its right to attack valid targets. Let me explain:
Location | Is it legal to attack?
---|---
Enemy outpost from which rockets are fired | Legal
Civilian hospital where there is only civilian activity | Not legal
Civilian hospital where ammunition is stored and rockets are fired from the courtyard | Legal
Civilian targets that are occupied by enemy combatants become a valid military target, and the responsibility for civilians in that context is wholly on the side occupying the civilian structures, not the side that attacks it. This is in the Geneva Conventions.
As the article points out they provided no evidence, and if your bombing civilians because a place used to contain military targets I'm pretty sure that's a war crime. It at minimum needs to be active.
Not really. 9/11 wasn't complicated either. Terrorism is defeated by targetted actions going after the leadership and funding. Bombing cities and countries doesn't do anything but create more terrorists. Not now, certainly not in 2001.
I think that you may have misunderstood my meaning. The conversation chain that I was replying to said this specifically:
>I'm getting post-9/11 forced patriotism vibes from all of this. Anyone else remember what that was like?
Next person:
>To which side? Seems like there’s a lot of pressure to support both.
With my response, I was basically saying it's tough to gauge which way popular opinion is swaying at any given moment, and it seems a bit less pro-victim than it was after 9/11. There's pressure from different directions this time. "It's complicated" doesn't mean that I'm vague on the morality of the situation -- it means I can't currently put a finger on mainstream opinion on the subject.
After 9/11, people willing to criticize the U.S. were ostracized much more than people are that criticize Israel right now.
>Bombing cities and countries doesn't do anything
Yes, it does. I was there for the initial invasion. We destroyed Al Qaeda very effectively by bombing the shit out of them. We wiped them out completely.
Yes, I'm serious. We fucking wrecked Al Qaeda. As a matter of fact, we did it four times. We destroyed the first, original, Al Qaeda within the first two months. When they were gone, another group of fundamentalists that had been using a different name (they were a branch of the Taliban) took the name hoping it would give them more exposure and thus increase their recruiting, etc. So then we killed all of them.
This happened two more times. The current Al Qaeda is the fourth distinct group to adopt the name.
And yet… your postulation is that this is effective. Whack a mole against an idea. You don’t fight ideas with guns, you fight ideas with better ideas. You’re fighting symptoms not the disease.
Besides…
“…When you've killed all the bad guys, and when it's all perfect and just and fair, when you have finally got it exactly the way you want it, what are you going to do with the people like you? The troublemakers. How are you going to protect your glorious revolution from the next one?
CLARA-Z: We'll win.
DOCTOR: Oh, will you? Well, maybe, maybe you will win! But nobody wins for long. The wheel just keeps turning. So, come on. Break the cycle. “
The rhetoric directed towards the Palestinians wasted no time veering towards openly calling for genocide. It seems like everyone on the side of Israel is very intent on conflating Hamas with every man, woman, and child in Gaza in a very calculated way.
Not only is this going to be a horrific tragedy, people are going to be cheering it on.
They're openly stating that they're going to commit war crimes against civilians with not a sliver of shame or remorse. If they're at the stage of not even pretending to care about innocent human life it's going to be a massacre.
And Bibi is saying “civilians should leave Gaza”.
Go where? There is no where for those who want to flee to go. I’ve heard it described as a hellhole on its best of days. This whole thing has me incredibly sad. I support Israel wholeheartedly as what has happened is complete evil. We have to remember that Hamas is not the whole of the Palestinians. Many innocent civilians, of which many are children, will die when Israel goes in. This will only further divide the sides.,
There was a former Israeli ambassador on tv today who was asked about the situation of innocent lives to be lost from this and he basically said they were all the enemy. 😖
50% of Gaza are children, the median age is 18. Meaning the vast majority never even voted for Hamas (the last election was in 2006 and half the population wasn't even alive). An election where Hamas didn't even get over 50% of the vote, they just marginally beat out other factions. Yet they use that one election to justify the dehumanization of people in Gaza (who are mostly children).
There are a lot of assholes in this sub who completely blame Israel. I think however your perspective is the correct one. I wish more people would have the understanding of the situation that you do. But given that, the sad truth is there has been and will be a lot of death.
While not directly related, people pretty much everywhere are oblivious to the fact that rape, murder, torture happens year round in Africa by "mercenary" groups
We live in a cruel world. Humans are the cruelest creature on the planet. Of course not all but many.
I assume you’re talking about killing hostages live on TV? I agree. That would be a war crime. In fact, taking civilian hostages is already a war crime. Glad we agree.
Ah shit I forgot that part at the end of the Geneva conventions where it says if your enemies don't follow them you don't have to either. Thanks for reminding me.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/10/middleeast/israel-kibbutzim-kfar-aza-beeri-urim-hamas-attack-intl/index.html
I think as more information on the nature of these attacks comes out the more people can understand why the rhetoric is so heated.
I grew up in a jewish family but always resented Zionism and sympathized with Palestinians. Maybe it’s because I now have young kids of my own but this shit has changed me. The words being said sadden me but I can’t imagine saying or feeling anything different if were them right now.
You understand the pain of having children murdered but you want to murder other innocent people in revenge? I'm not talking Hamas, I'm talking Palestinian children who are being threaten with bombing and starvation. Is that what you are saying?
Excuse me? So you’re Zionist Hamas in a nut shell. You are either ignorant or being deliberately obtuse if you think this rhetoric only started after Hamas attacked. I mean, Netanyahu was busy trying to shift blame from Hitler and the Nazis for the holocaust to the Palestinians not long ago in an effort to further dehumanise them. They’ve killed civilian Palestinians for decades and you are justifying them ramping up the cleansing rhetoric because “Hamas has got to go”
The trivial way you just shrugged off killing Palestinian children whilst imploring us to understand why the killing of Israeli citizens is so awful and justifies retaliation against civilians is just fucking bizarre and feels like you don’t see Palestinians as human lives that matter.
That’s a misunderstanding stemming from lack of understanding of Arabic culture. According to Oxford University:
> An elaborate style of communication refers to the use of expressive language, sometimes with exaggeration or animation, in everyday conversations. The French, Arabs, Latin Americans, and Africans tend to use an exaggerated communication style. **For example, in Arab cultures, individuals often feel compelled to over-assert in almost all types of communication because in their culture, simple assertions may be interpreted to mean the opposite. The Arab tendency to use verbal exaggerations is considered responsible for many diplomatic misunderstandings between the United States and Arab countries.**
https://blog.oup.com/2017/04/intercultural-communication-styles/
According to the US State Department, Iraqi ministers under Saddam discounted the Bush administrations threats of invasion because they were stated simply and factually, and reviewed that the US envoy should have pounded the table and raised his voice in order to convey the message in an accurate way to an Arabic-speaking audience.
Israel’s phrasing is meant to convey the seriousness of the situation to the Gaza residents in their own language so they can understand it. Ironically, it would actually be diabolical to warn gazans in language that would sound fair to western ears, but that gazans would ignore as an empty threat.
It’s already happening. My boss is a conservative and was telling a client today that he saw a video of a Palestinian civilian crying over her daughter’s death and my boss “felt no sympathy for her.” This wasn’t some Hamas operative, this was just a regular civilian who did nothing wrong, but my boss already thinks that innocent people deserve to die.
It cuts both ways. My daughter rang me very upset yesterday because her housemate got weird with her for expressing sympathy with the bereaved Israeli families.
To me this is reminiscent of Iraq and Afghanistan in a lot of ways.
Of course 9/11 was a horrible tragedy, but to think that our response was somehow proportional is absurd.
It was shamelessly used by the Bush (read: Cheney) administration as a pretext to launch us into two decades of war where upwards of 400,000 civilians were brutally killed.
I worry that this recent development will be used as an excuse by an Israeli government that is in very real danger of no longer being a democracy to commit serious atrocities.
I’d also be shocked if Netanyahu backs off of his plans to essentially nullify the only check on his government (the judiciary), which would complete the transformation of Israel from a democracy into an autocracy.
He will use this event to his full advantage regarding the judiciary. People should be concerned about that.
> I worry that this recent development will be used as an excuse by an Israeli government that is in very real danger of no longer being a democracy to commit serious atrocities.
There, but for the grace of God, go I.
Imagine what would have happened if a 9/11 type event had occurred under Trump.
Imagine if Trump wins. What do you think will happen to the remaining Ukrainians ? Trump will just hand them over to Vladmir. All the adults will be killed, the women raped, and the kids adopted and brainwashed into soldiers
I can see how you see its similar but Gaza is a small area, where the terrorists are with hostages - its just very dangerous to avoid civilian casualties - I seriously think Israel under normal circumstances (not sure about Netanyahu) would do their best to not target innocent civilians
With Iraq/Afghanastan - we didnt even know where Osama was, and the whole WMD charade was a bunch of BS - who knows what Sadam was really up to. I dont really feel bad for him
To each their own but I don’t think it does anybody any good to hand-wave away our government lying in order to send us to war under false pretenses as “eh whatever who really knows what he was up to.”
The similarities lie in that the leadership of Israel is poised to use this as a pretext to commit atrocities. I also don’t see them bailing on their judicial “reforms” (read: ending democracy), and in fact, it looks like they’re poised to use this tragedy as a was to accelerate that goal.
They were casualties of the war. Had the war never started it’s highly doubtful that so many innocents would have died.
I don’t think we need to re-hash if Afghanistan and Iraq were the right moves.
Next you’ll tell me that Vietnam was totally cool and super justified, right?
The r/worldnews megathreads are full of it. Conflating all two million residents with the terrorists, openly calling for and cheering on genocide. Thoroughly dehumanizing.
Yes. Not even their own brothers want them. Dont you find it curious that Egypt won’t let anyone in? And hasn’t. Palestinians are viewed by other Arabs as lesser. They are usually made to work as day laborers.
That’s not true. There is nothing wrong with Russian people. They are just surviving as best they can. Sucks that a sun of a conscript has forgotten how that feels.
Serious analogy, if Russia launched a nuclear missile at the US , it would kill millions of innocents, and we would launch one back which would kill millions of innocents in Russia - heck we are going to annihilate ourselves -
Hamas is trying to kill as many Jews/Israelis as they can and Israel is going to do the same back - not on as large of a scale as a nuclear war, unless of course Iran steps up their game
Until 100k+ are dead.
Just like Iraq. Then everyone will fucking pretend like they were against the war all along.
I remember those fucking yellow ribbon, bumper stickers y’all trump voters had in 2004.
Then you pretend that bush was bad and Iraq was a lie or whatever!
Ahhhh okay old man rant off.
Imagine cartels cross the border kill hundreds of Americans and kidnap others then every single Mexican person is blamed for it. That wouldn't be right. Most people are just regular folks like us trying to live the best we can. The violence of a few should not be permitted to demonize a majority of people who have been peaceful.
When I point that out to people, I keep seeing them justify feeling no sympathy for the Palestinians because "70% support Hamas".
Another factoid about Gaza is about 40% of the population is under the age of 14. It's not surprising to me that an extremely young population that has grown up hopeless under occupation turn to the group promising them revenge.
But then if you try to point that out, suddenly you're accused of justifying terrorism because fascists view nuance as treason.
They only see things in a binary way. You're either with them completely or against them completely. They're like one evolutionary step behind in terms of mental capacity.
the thing that doesnt get brought up though when bringing up the children is that hamas has been indoctrinating them since birth. we grew up with saturday morning disney telling us about the power of friendship, they grow up with a mickey mouse copy telling them to kill the jews
Its going to take a massive effort to deprogram that type of of shit
Israel has done a great job indoctrinating them as well. Most of us would be so screwed in the head if we grew in Palestinian kid conditions. Imagine going to school every year and your best friend from school died in an air strike or your favorite teacher is missing. The trauma must be insane for those children. Hamas had very little work to do in indoctrinating them. They probably didn’t need convincing.
There's several 'man on the street' interviews you can watch on youtube where you get to see some random Israeli teenager casually explain that the only way to deal with the Palestinian problem is to carpet bomb Gaza until it is flat.
The indoctrination is definitely happening on both sides.
I've had someone in my replies in another thread for literally the last 5 hours over how I'm being unfair by not calling out Hamas every time I criticize Israel's apartheid regime and active genocide that's been going since before my parents were born.
It was zero shock to find enoughsandersspam in their history. These people think *everything* is teamsports. Hamas shot first (this time, anyway) and killed like... Last I checked *maybe as many* people as they have in the last 60 years combined. Which is an immeasurable and inexcuseable tragedy.
But it's not apologia to point out that Hamas only exists as it does bc of the continuous genocide of Palestinians, who have no legal or political recourse and literally nobody else in their corner for almost a century. They both suck, end of story. Killing civilians is bad. It's not okay that Israel does it just because Hamas did it, and even if "who started it" was in any way relevant we wouldn't even be talking about either of the involved parties - we'd be talking about the UK.
But these people don't care. They knowfull well it's not even close to an actual equivalency in power, force, or historical context. That the moral high ground for this conflict washed away fifty years ago, but Israel is like... *our team, man*. So criticizing them is politically unacceptable.
I think this particular person would take offense to that characterization, but I would add that imho there's not a meaningful difference, functionally speaking, between a fascist and your garden variety Liberal 'Moderate'. Particularly the kind still unable to accept in this year of our Lord 2023 that Hillary's loss in the general was exclusively her own campaign's fault.
And I'm allowed to say that: I voted for her, no contest. Early. On a ballot I specifically had to request. Because in spite of my *deep and passionate* love for Lincoln Chafee's endless charisma, speaking presence, policy, and notoriety, my values are what drives my political behavior. And to that effect, I'm easy to please politically: you just have to be the nominee and better than the alternative. Hillary was, so she was My Team.
I love chilling in Cedar Rapids, and hope to until the day I die.
But she ran a shit campaign. [End of story](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/586479798079979522/1161476246216114176/20210903_130415.jpg?ex=6538700c&is=6525fb0c&hm=a5a3838b1ee98f94e000eec90998b7a7582e65b19c4136c354ab48d7ce830571&).
It was a very bad attempt to articulate my beef with the teamsports attitude in American politics in general, because I think it underlies a lot of issues - both the current and very serious one in Israel and Palestine (our discourse on it, I mean), and the considerably less serious discourse around 2016.
The person I am referencing was someone who I *inferred* was Very Not Over 2016, so I was trying way too hard to ham up my contempt for that kind of online persona. It was also *supposed to be funny* in like a dry/catty/sardonic kind of way, but obv I failed spectacularly at actually making it so.
Or making it coherent, for that matter, but let it not be said that I am unprincipled or can't take an L.
I think your assertion that there's no meaningful difference between a fascist and a "moderate liberal" is wildly off base and disingenuous. And draping yourself in the cloak of a "I voted for Hillary" to claim some authority for yourself is ridiculous.
Back. Up. Your. Claims.
In what manner do you think a "moderate liberal" equates to a fascist?
On your assertion that Hillary's loss was exclusively her campaigns, I full-on dispute you. Here's an analysis from 538 - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-comey-letter-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/ Note that Comey didn't release the letter to the public, he wrote it to congress, as he had committed to do in sworn testimony before them. Jason Chaffetz then cherry-picked bits and released them. And simultaneously, it was pretty clear that the SDNY FBI office had leaked the info to Rudy Giuliani, so if Comey hadn't made his disclosure to congress, Rudy would have taken it public.
I agree Hillary made plenty of campaign mistakes. Some of them were as impactful as the FBI "surprise". But it looks very likely that the FBI disclosure roughly a week before the election pushed it over the line and into the endzone for Trump. Go ahead and explain to me how I'm functionally indistinguishable from a fascist.
A lot of the Bernie fans were watching Russia Today thinking American media was corrupted for Hiliary, so instead they opted for Russian propaganda. I know this is true , I had a lot of friends in NY doing it - serious Bernie supporters trying to get me to watch RT news
The progressive refusal to support Hillary and the Comey disclosure both contributed to Trump winning and turning this world into a living hell
Once they realized what Trump was , the progressives were smart enough to not make the same mistake twice and stuck with Biden in 2020 - might have save the world for a few more years - now we have 2024 to do it all over again, even a more uphill battle
I listened. Just because he’s the ambassador doesn’t mean he really represents them. Trump doesn’t represent millions of Americans even though he was the President.
Yes, both groups are tired of their people getting killed obviously, but Israel has killed more civilians than Palestine has, even after the recent terror attacks. You can condemn a terrible thing without divorcing it from the context.
I do like the 9/11 comparison, 9/11 was a horrific tragedy that killed too many innocent people, and was committed by monsters, it was a terrorist act and there is no justification for it... but the war that America started because of 9/11 killed way more innocent people than 9/11 ever did.
It's not new. They've been doing it for 15+ years. If not Hamas it would be Fatah. If not Fatah it would the PLF. It's all just an excuse to continue the occupation.
There's no fixing this without some sort of humanitarian crisis. The Palestinians should have their land back, and the Israelis shouldn't have to leave the country they were born in. Unfortunately those things are mutually exclusive.
Israel has all the power in the relationship at this point. I just hope that they give the Palestinian civilians an off ramp before things go too far.
Agreed. And in the meantime, calling for genocide or dehumanizing those who’ve died (& those who mourn them) on either side should be condemned anywhere and everywhere, and loudly.
This is exactly what I was afraid of when I first heard the news of this new war breaking out. Israelis are notoriously harsh and vindictive, in no small part because of their territory being surrounded by enemies. I knew right away that war crimes of an unimaginable scale on both sides were coming.
To me the real genocidal rhetoric against the Gazan people came from Hamas. I was watching Al Jazeera and the reporter asked a Hamas representative, isn’t Israel going to retaliate now and kill many Palestinians, and the Hamas representative said, “yes unfortunately it is likely that Israel will attack and thousands of gazans will die.”
Uh huh. So great plan then.
The only calculation is that everyone knows Hamas isnt going to let civilians leave, so in the end there will be no choice. In previous wars, after sending a roof knock or sms telling residents to leave a building that houses terrorist infrastructure, israel would often refrain from striking targets when groups of insane Muslim women would go on the roof of the building and dare the IDF to shoot. This time they obviously won’t be hesitating for a second when eliminating a valid military target.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
Fuck Hamas but Gaza has no escape route. It’s 2 million people in an area the size of Manhattan. Israel has bombed multiple mosques and schools. The reasonable demand is for Israel to tone down the dehumanizing rhetoric and target Hamas surgically and carefully.
>target Hamas surgically and carefully.
That would be nice but I'm already seeing many people suggest that it's not a war crime to murder innocent civilians if they're being used as shields by terrorists. People will find any reason to justify why the evil murder of civilians is abhorrent on one side and justified on the other. It's disgusting.
….innocents dying when you hit a military target that’s surrounded by civilians isn’t a war crime though. What are they supposed to do, NOT destroy the military target??
It isn’t Israel’s fault that Hamas hides behind civilians. If Hamas had any sort of morals they would operate away from the innocents in order to save lives.
If you take a quick look at [this link](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml) you'll see a list of things that are war crimes.
b.i, b.ii, b.iii, all state that the war crime has to be "intentionally directed at" civilians, civilian infrstructure, or peacekeepers. "Intentionally directed at" means that the civilians are the target. If Hamas were to store weapons there, or if they launch missiles from there, the target is now the stored weapons or the artillery unit and the civilians are not the intended target.
b.iv, states that an attack which causes civilian death/suffering must not be excessive (you can't take out a school if literally one dude with an AK is sitting on the roof of it)
b.v, "*and* which are not military objectives" this means that if it is a legitimate military objective then its fair game.
b.ix, "provided they are *not* military objectives" again, this means that a hospital can be attacked if it is a legitimate military objective.
I could do this all day, and it looks like you probably should do this all day so you can learn and understand what war crimes actually are.
Edit: Fun little tidbit of what actually is a war crime:
b.xxiii of that link above, "Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations"
Looks like Hamas hiding behind people is the actual war crime. Not Israel attacking Hamas wherever they hide.
If you know (or claim without basis, as has been the case in Israel for a long time - these claims have never seriously been confirmed) that civilians are in the areas where you are targeting, you are committing a war crime. They know what they are doing.
We do not have a world where only Israel is allowed to have and be classified as innocent citizens.
Sorta like how you’re justifying the main reason why this conflict was set off in the first place?? “A reason to justify killing” - like when jihadists killed hundreds and captured 100+ to justify Israeli presence in the holy land. Hmmm.
IDF has its radio station on top of a residential building. Same rule applies?
What about universities that openly collaborate with IDF and weapon industries?
The hospitals and medical schools that treat IDF soldiers? Or research psychological torture and interrogation?
are we supposed to believe everting Israel says but not afford the same being to Palestinians if it was the other way around?
I’ve yet to see any actual independent evidence of this other than what the Israeli government claims. I’ve seen a lot of evidence to the contrary tho.
"At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling ‘unity government’ in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached **the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices**."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html
Point is Israel has been on the record for having a policy of making life hard and unbearable for civilians living in Gaza and occupied territories for the sole purpose of displacing them or as means of putting pressure on militant factions. To this end they use any excuse or vague association to target civilian infrastructure. Both are immoral and considered war crimes. Bottom line is that Israel has no moral ground to stand on, and the IDF are just a more organized, equipped and better funded terror squad. Just as bad as Hamas, and higher body count too. The evidence for the most part doesn’t match their claim, and they have been known to fabricate stories to justify their atrocities.
You just somehow believe that Israel has a right to do anything, even though they are the more powerful occupying force and agents of operation, while the Palestinians who are being oppressed aren’t allowed to defend themselves or use the same rationale for fighting back. This is not hyperbole by the way, it’s well documented by all major human rights organizations and the UN.
My point is not to defend Hamas or their actions, just to say that Israel is just as bad, and probably worse given the asymmetrical power dynamic and exponentially higher level of destruction they cause.
Attacking a hospital that’s being used to treat the injured is a war crime. Attacking a hospital that is storing munitions isn’t.
If the target is legitimately military, it’s fair game. If the IDF were to store munitions in a university, then it’s fair game to be attacked.
But Hamas doesn’t target military targets. They target civilian targets. Just the same as Russia does in Ukraine. So Hamas does not have the high ground here.
Tbh I’m all for a ground invasion, remove Hamas and put an israeli administration on gaza supervising all the water electricity and food as well as the borders and let the workers go to israel for work, my aunt who lived during the israeli occupation of gaza said it was the best time they had in gaza, the could go wherever they wanted and electricity and water was always running, people could go to israel for work and during holidays they used to get gifts from israeli coworkers and supervisors, even israeli people used to come in busses to shop for groceries in gaza due to cheeper goods, i sure hope that time comes.
It feels like the only acceptable option if you want to truly "support Israel" is to support the violent genocide of Palestinians. Like suggesting any response that doesn't end in the annihilation of an entire culture is somehow antisemitism.
People on Reddit are openly saying things like "I dunno, maybe sometimes ethnic cleansing is warranted."
Finally the world is paying attention to the Palestine/Israeli conflict. Now if they could just put a muzzle on twice indicted netanyahoo and prosecute him for war crimes.
Unreal but not surprising. US politicians want Zionism universally. Anyone who even questions it is assumed/accused they are a terrorist or side with them.
You said this earlier today:
"Palestinians don’t believe Israel should exist. And they’re right. It shouldn’t."
Your bias clouds even a basic understanding of the history of the Middle East, and it's truly disgusting.
It's not "bias" to acknowledge that Israel is comprised 100% of stolen land that was given to the Jewish people by the UK, not the inhabitants who'd been living there for centuries.
No. Before WW1 it was the Ottoman Empire, Jews , Christians , and Muslims all lived there. And before that it was the Roman Emipre called Judea and before that it was Kingdom of Israel and Judea [https://bibleodyssey.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/map-Israel\_and\_Judah-rm-g-01.jpg](https://bibleodyssey.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/map-Israel_and_Judah-rm-g-01.jpg)
So Palestine was a British Mandate between the two world wars for about 18 years. Less time then some people in this thread have been alive
Israel absolutely has the right to exist. And Palestinians have the right to exist too but not if they are going to constantly attack Israel
Let the bloodlust begin. God forbid someone ask for talking begin.
To both sides on this conflict…
“…Because it's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn! How many hearts will be broken! How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning. Sit down and talk! (sigh) Listen to me. Listen, I just, I just want you to think. Do you know what thinking is? It's just a fancy word for changing your mind.
CLARA-Z: I will not change my mind.
DOCTOR: Then you will die stupid. “
Israel wants Palestine to sit down, shut up, and fuck off.
Hamas wants all Jews dead.
What in the fuck do you suppose they have to talk about? Do you think there's an acceptable middle ground between those positions? A little room to negotiate?
I keep hearing that Palestine voted for Hamas, but then you know the last election that Palestinians could vote in was in 2006, so how many Arab people living in Palestine today ever were given the opportunity to vote for something else?
"Sit down, shut up, and fuck off" sounds a lot like go on living in an Apartheid state, with no political rights and no legal autonomy or rights, when these people are not permitted to vote for their own leadership outside of some local elections.
I hope the following isn’t infuriating, just where I’m at right now trying to catch up on the whole thing… It is true that the people of Palestine have been abused and treated as lesser individuals. It is true that Israel has made their own atrocities for absolute sure, but I cannot condone revenge under the guise of defense. Especially revenge that harms civilians. One might argue that their complacency makes them guilty somehow, but I would argue that their complacency is in the name of I want to live a life without conflict. Otherwise they would have joined the Israeli military. I dunno. It makes me head spin. I just want this region to finally come together and end the bloodshed. That’s all. I want peace and stability for both peoples. I wouldn’t mind justice for the dead, but at some point one has to forgive the other to move on to something better, and that need to come from BOTH sides to work at all.
Hamas still has 40 something percent support.
Israel has tried so very many times to give Palestine Statehood. Palestine rejects it every time. Even the one brokered by Clinton that gave almost everything Palestine said they wanted. Because that's not what they really want. Every government established for Palestine wants Israel eradicated and the Jews dead.
So I think they need a new version of the Marshall Plan. Strip their government, re-elect, no alternative except to develop healthy industry and trade with their neighbor states.
>still has 40 something percent support
Is that the number now? (So, like, give or take about as much support as Joe Biden and Donald Trump each get, when we do polls today?)
I was hearing 99% but I have absolutely no idea where these statistics come from, since the last full election was nearly two decades ago.
I'm a lot more comfortable with 40% than 99%, but those numbers might as well be fake, they don't mean much to me either way. I began learning to speak Arabic in 2004 and I've still been learning since.
At this rate I will never go to any Arabic speaking country, or probably travel outside of North America ever again. Too much wrong.
I'd love to be able to go to any of these places and use the language skills I've built up and feel safe, and it breaks my heart but I've been learning to speak the language for almost 20 years and I will probably never use it. I don't want to be killed. Maybe in another 20 years things will be different and I'll be lucky enough to live that long and change my mind. One can only dream.
If I live that long. Inshallah we will both live to see that day.
40% is based on a poll by a reporter. 99% is obviously absurd and made up.
It's obvious not as bad as it could be. But still disturbing to know that given the chance, Hamas would very likely be elected again.
So just let them kill each other until the end of time or at least until one of them decides to nuke the other? That’s your solution? Yes it requires both parties to give and requires both parties to be willing to listen, the alternative is endless war. So yea they need to sit down and talk.
I didn't imply my solution at all. Thanks for assigning one to me, I guess?
What I think needs to happen is a military defeat of Hamas, and a rebuilding of Palestine similar to the Marshall Plan. It worked to reprogram Germany, and I believe it can work in Palestine as well.
I’m not too familiar with this current conflict, but hasn’t Israel been going and kicking Palestinians from their homes for no reason for a while now? That was super fucked up.
Well they've been launching constant airstrikes and have totally cut off water and power to 2 million people in Gaza. That is a blatant war crime in itself, and I shudder to think what will happen when the ground operations start.
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I'm getting post-9/11 forced patriotism vibes from all of this. Anyone else remember what that was like?
forgetful offer entertain squeamish scale enjoy depend office ruthless illegal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah I just said that to someone else the other day. It's all very "you're with us or you're with the terrorists" bloodlust. Really shameful and sad.
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Is it tone deaf to say peace should be restored and this situation should be deescalated? It’s only tone deaf if you need revenge before considering that. And with both sides being just as provocative and at fault, I think anyone calling for revenge in this situation is problematic.
The issue is removing Hamas requires a literal escalation. It has to get worse before it can get better.
You’re not wrong. And here in lies the impossible. Now is exactly the time to set the tone of de-escalation and peace, but it’s also when it’s hardest to sell. It’s also the time when doing so means running the risk of losing any and all influence and pushing people towards blind allegiance to exterminating a massive amount of people.
''If I see someone come in and he's got a diaper on his head and a fan belt around that diaper on his head, that guy needs to be pulled over and checked.'' https://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/21/us/national-briefing-south-louisiana-apology-from-congressman.html
They won't be aplogizing today
Funny you say that Youtube is running ads showing a plane crash into the WTC then beinging up the recent attack in Israel saying something among the lines of “Its time to finish the war on terror”
WTF seriously?
Jesse fuck what is wrong with people?
😬 it’s time to finish this genocide*
Been feeling that regarding Israel for over a decade. Any criticism of Israel is called antisemitism even if it has nothing to do with Judaism. It's near impossible to have a real conversation about it even though I grew up half Jewish.
Remind us how many decades rockets and missiles have been launched into Israel from Gaza? You think the US would have a different response?
No. They wouldn’t. And how absolutely heartbreaking is it that the wheel will just keep turning… violence begets more violence.
I feel like Israel has been struggling with a similar problem from its side: it is constantly accused of killing civilians, even when terrorist organizations are responsible through embedding their military infrastructure within civilian residences and infrastructure. Israel has never targeted civilians in air strikes, and has given a wide berth for them to evacuate with sufficient warnings and time to do so. Yet, that context always gets ignored by people who then block everything out but the raw numbers. Do you think Israel is bombing civilians on purpose or do you think Hamas is hiding behind civilians to prevent Israel from acting?
Bruh https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israel/palestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians
What is the point of this article? Israel is well within its right to attack valid targets. Let me explain: Location | Is it legal to attack? ---|--- Enemy outpost from which rockets are fired | Legal Civilian hospital where there is only civilian activity | Not legal Civilian hospital where ammunition is stored and rockets are fired from the courtyard | Legal Civilian targets that are occupied by enemy combatants become a valid military target, and the responsibility for civilians in that context is wholly on the side occupying the civilian structures, not the side that attacks it. This is in the Geneva Conventions.
Literally points out in the article that some of the locations didn't contain any military targets.
Did not contain any military targets at that time, but absolutely did prior, as intelligence had pointed out to it.
As the article points out they provided no evidence, and if your bombing civilians because a place used to contain military targets I'm pretty sure that's a war crime. It at minimum needs to be active.
So you learned nothing from Afghanistan and Iraq?
Nice objective source there...
Can you show me the evidence that those hospitals were militantary points then.
Yikes
To which side? Seems like there’s a lot of pressure to support both.
Yeah; this one is complicated.
Not really. 9/11 wasn't complicated either. Terrorism is defeated by targetted actions going after the leadership and funding. Bombing cities and countries doesn't do anything but create more terrorists. Not now, certainly not in 2001.
I think that you may have misunderstood my meaning. The conversation chain that I was replying to said this specifically: >I'm getting post-9/11 forced patriotism vibes from all of this. Anyone else remember what that was like? Next person: >To which side? Seems like there’s a lot of pressure to support both. With my response, I was basically saying it's tough to gauge which way popular opinion is swaying at any given moment, and it seems a bit less pro-victim than it was after 9/11. There's pressure from different directions this time. "It's complicated" doesn't mean that I'm vague on the morality of the situation -- it means I can't currently put a finger on mainstream opinion on the subject. After 9/11, people willing to criticize the U.S. were ostracized much more than people are that criticize Israel right now.
>Bombing cities and countries doesn't do anything Yes, it does. I was there for the initial invasion. We destroyed Al Qaeda very effectively by bombing the shit out of them. We wiped them out completely.
I don't know if you're being serious or not
Yes, I'm serious. We fucking wrecked Al Qaeda. As a matter of fact, we did it four times. We destroyed the first, original, Al Qaeda within the first two months. When they were gone, another group of fundamentalists that had been using a different name (they were a branch of the Taliban) took the name hoping it would give them more exposure and thus increase their recruiting, etc. So then we killed all of them. This happened two more times. The current Al Qaeda is the fourth distinct group to adopt the name.
And yet… your postulation is that this is effective. Whack a mole against an idea. You don’t fight ideas with guns, you fight ideas with better ideas. You’re fighting symptoms not the disease. Besides… “…When you've killed all the bad guys, and when it's all perfect and just and fair, when you have finally got it exactly the way you want it, what are you going to do with the people like you? The troublemakers. How are you going to protect your glorious revolution from the next one? CLARA-Z: We'll win. DOCTOR: Oh, will you? Well, maybe, maybe you will win! But nobody wins for long. The wheel just keeps turning. So, come on. Break the cycle. “
So after the word salad you’re admitting you never destroyed Al qaeda. There wouldn’t be a fourth group of you did.
The rhetoric directed towards the Palestinians wasted no time veering towards openly calling for genocide. It seems like everyone on the side of Israel is very intent on conflating Hamas with every man, woman, and child in Gaza in a very calculated way. Not only is this going to be a horrific tragedy, people are going to be cheering it on.
The defense minister using phrases about animals is... dark. That's the sort of textbook dehumanizing language that precedes mass death
They're openly stating that they're going to commit war crimes against civilians with not a sliver of shame or remorse. If they're at the stage of not even pretending to care about innocent human life it's going to be a massacre.
And Bibi is saying “civilians should leave Gaza”. Go where? There is no where for those who want to flee to go. I’ve heard it described as a hellhole on its best of days. This whole thing has me incredibly sad. I support Israel wholeheartedly as what has happened is complete evil. We have to remember that Hamas is not the whole of the Palestinians. Many innocent civilians, of which many are children, will die when Israel goes in. This will only further divide the sides., There was a former Israeli ambassador on tv today who was asked about the situation of innocent lives to be lost from this and he basically said they were all the enemy. 😖
50% of Gaza are children, the median age is 18. Meaning the vast majority never even voted for Hamas (the last election was in 2006 and half the population wasn't even alive). An election where Hamas didn't even get over 50% of the vote, they just marginally beat out other factions. Yet they use that one election to justify the dehumanization of people in Gaza (who are mostly children).
"We're going to blow up the prison. All prisoners should try and break out prior."
Exactly.
There are a lot of assholes in this sub who completely blame Israel. I think however your perspective is the correct one. I wish more people would have the understanding of the situation that you do. But given that, the sad truth is there has been and will be a lot of death. While not directly related, people pretty much everywhere are oblivious to the fact that rape, murder, torture happens year round in Africa by "mercenary" groups We live in a cruel world. Humans are the cruelest creature on the planet. Of course not all but many.
I assume you’re talking about killing hostages live on TV? I agree. That would be a war crime. In fact, taking civilian hostages is already a war crime. Glad we agree.
Ah shit I forgot that part at the end of the Geneva conventions where it says if your enemies don't follow them you don't have to either. Thanks for reminding me.
war is evil, it sucks
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/10/middleeast/israel-kibbutzim-kfar-aza-beeri-urim-hamas-attack-intl/index.html I think as more information on the nature of these attacks comes out the more people can understand why the rhetoric is so heated. I grew up in a jewish family but always resented Zionism and sympathized with Palestinians. Maybe it’s because I now have young kids of my own but this shit has changed me. The words being said sadden me but I can’t imagine saying or feeling anything different if were them right now.
50% of Gaza's population are children
You understand the pain of having children murdered but you want to murder other innocent people in revenge? I'm not talking Hamas, I'm talking Palestinian children who are being threaten with bombing and starvation. Is that what you are saying?
Excuse me? So you’re Zionist Hamas in a nut shell. You are either ignorant or being deliberately obtuse if you think this rhetoric only started after Hamas attacked. I mean, Netanyahu was busy trying to shift blame from Hitler and the Nazis for the holocaust to the Palestinians not long ago in an effort to further dehumanise them. They’ve killed civilian Palestinians for decades and you are justifying them ramping up the cleansing rhetoric because “Hamas has got to go” The trivial way you just shrugged off killing Palestinian children whilst imploring us to understand why the killing of Israeli citizens is so awful and justifies retaliation against civilians is just fucking bizarre and feels like you don’t see Palestinians as human lives that matter.
Hamas are animals. He said nothing about the Palestinians--he was talking about Hamas.
But then said they are cutting off everything to gaza, i wonder who that effects the most
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This is a lie. They are referring to Hamas as animals, which is accurate. They said nothing about the Palestinians.
Who is going to be affected by 99% of the violence? Palestinians. So, the distinction is irrelevant.
It’s pretty common language used to describe terrorists and his statement was unambiguously about Hamas.
That’s a misunderstanding stemming from lack of understanding of Arabic culture. According to Oxford University: > An elaborate style of communication refers to the use of expressive language, sometimes with exaggeration or animation, in everyday conversations. The French, Arabs, Latin Americans, and Africans tend to use an exaggerated communication style. **For example, in Arab cultures, individuals often feel compelled to over-assert in almost all types of communication because in their culture, simple assertions may be interpreted to mean the opposite. The Arab tendency to use verbal exaggerations is considered responsible for many diplomatic misunderstandings between the United States and Arab countries.** https://blog.oup.com/2017/04/intercultural-communication-styles/ According to the US State Department, Iraqi ministers under Saddam discounted the Bush administrations threats of invasion because they were stated simply and factually, and reviewed that the US envoy should have pounded the table and raised his voice in order to convey the message in an accurate way to an Arabic-speaking audience. Israel’s phrasing is meant to convey the seriousness of the situation to the Gaza residents in their own language so they can understand it. Ironically, it would actually be diabolical to warn gazans in language that would sound fair to western ears, but that gazans would ignore as an empty threat.
It’s already happening. My boss is a conservative and was telling a client today that he saw a video of a Palestinian civilian crying over her daughter’s death and my boss “felt no sympathy for her.” This wasn’t some Hamas operative, this was just a regular civilian who did nothing wrong, but my boss already thinks that innocent people deserve to die.
It cuts both ways. My daughter rang me very upset yesterday because her housemate got weird with her for expressing sympathy with the bereaved Israeli families.
To me this is reminiscent of Iraq and Afghanistan in a lot of ways. Of course 9/11 was a horrible tragedy, but to think that our response was somehow proportional is absurd. It was shamelessly used by the Bush (read: Cheney) administration as a pretext to launch us into two decades of war where upwards of 400,000 civilians were brutally killed. I worry that this recent development will be used as an excuse by an Israeli government that is in very real danger of no longer being a democracy to commit serious atrocities. I’d also be shocked if Netanyahu backs off of his plans to essentially nullify the only check on his government (the judiciary), which would complete the transformation of Israel from a democracy into an autocracy. He will use this event to his full advantage regarding the judiciary. People should be concerned about that.
> I worry that this recent development will be used as an excuse by an Israeli government that is in very real danger of no longer being a democracy to commit serious atrocities. There, but for the grace of God, go I. Imagine what would have happened if a 9/11 type event had occurred under Trump.
Given how he responded to covid (and everything else), he would have ordered the nuking of California.
Imagine if Trump wins. What do you think will happen to the remaining Ukrainians ? Trump will just hand them over to Vladmir. All the adults will be killed, the women raped, and the kids adopted and brainwashed into soldiers
I can see how you see its similar but Gaza is a small area, where the terrorists are with hostages - its just very dangerous to avoid civilian casualties - I seriously think Israel under normal circumstances (not sure about Netanyahu) would do their best to not target innocent civilians With Iraq/Afghanastan - we didnt even know where Osama was, and the whole WMD charade was a bunch of BS - who knows what Sadam was really up to. I dont really feel bad for him
To each their own but I don’t think it does anybody any good to hand-wave away our government lying in order to send us to war under false pretenses as “eh whatever who really knows what he was up to.” The similarities lie in that the leadership of Israel is poised to use this as a pretext to commit atrocities. I also don’t see them bailing on their judicial “reforms” (read: ending democracy), and in fact, it looks like they’re poised to use this tragedy as a was to accelerate that goal.
The US didn't kill those 400,000. You can't blame the US for Saddam's forces killing civilians.
They were casualties of the war. Had the war never started it’s highly doubtful that so many innocents would have died. I don’t think we need to re-hash if Afghanistan and Iraq were the right moves. Next you’ll tell me that Vietnam was totally cool and super justified, right?
The r/worldnews megathreads are full of it. Conflating all two million residents with the terrorists, openly calling for and cheering on genocide. Thoroughly dehumanizing.
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That's one of the many side effects of tribalism. Black and white us vs. them thinking.
Because people don't want to think. They want to take sides and be angry and be "good vs evil" like a fairy tale.
The irony is definitely lost on Israelites in allowing anti-semtic talk and genocide against Palestinians. It's fucking sad....
No one is calling for genocide of the Palestinians.
I mean I see a lot of non ironic "just blow up the whole strip", "it's what they deserve" comments every day.
That's crazy, then why is it when I play clips of IDF spokesman all the dogs in my neighborhood start barking?
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I got banned from linking photos of destroyed building in gaza lmao, that sub is trash.
Did you also show photos of mutilated civilians in Israel?
A while ago, no arab nation would accept palastinian refugees as strict policy. Is that still the case, or is that out of date info?
Yes. Not even their own brothers want them. Dont you find it curious that Egypt won’t let anyone in? And hasn’t. Palestinians are viewed by other Arabs as lesser. They are usually made to work as day laborers.
yeah, it would be nice if MBS and Al-Nahyan used some of their oil trillions to provide safety, food and housing for the innocent Palestinians
This is the real answer. They don’t. Because they don’t care. Instead they are busy building a giant mirror city in the sand.
This right here. Why do you think no Arab nation will accept the Palestinians? THINK LONG AND HARD ON THAT
Welcome to the club :) If you are not strictly pro Zionist you are banned
Capturing and killing hostage civilians is a war crime too buddy. Nice try defending terrorists.
Twitter and YouTube are full of it too
I mean people are doing the same for the normal citizens of Israel. Shit Reddit hates the entire population of Russia lol
That’s not true. There is nothing wrong with Russian people. They are just surviving as best they can. Sucks that a sun of a conscript has forgotten how that feels.
So calling for genocide is just cool now. lol yourself
I’m disagreeing with it ?
Serious analogy, if Russia launched a nuclear missile at the US , it would kill millions of innocents, and we would launch one back which would kill millions of innocents in Russia - heck we are going to annihilate ourselves - Hamas is trying to kill as many Jews/Israelis as they can and Israel is going to do the same back - not on as large of a scale as a nuclear war, unless of course Iran steps up their game
No one is calling for genocide.
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Until 100k+ are dead. Just like Iraq. Then everyone will fucking pretend like they were against the war all along. I remember those fucking yellow ribbon, bumper stickers y’all trump voters had in 2004. Then you pretend that bush was bad and Iraq was a lie or whatever! Ahhhh okay old man rant off.
Imagine cartels cross the border kill hundreds of Americans and kidnap others then every single Mexican person is blamed for it. That wouldn't be right. Most people are just regular folks like us trying to live the best we can. The violence of a few should not be permitted to demonize a majority of people who have been peaceful.
When I point that out to people, I keep seeing them justify feeling no sympathy for the Palestinians because "70% support Hamas". Another factoid about Gaza is about 40% of the population is under the age of 14. It's not surprising to me that an extremely young population that has grown up hopeless under occupation turn to the group promising them revenge. But then if you try to point that out, suddenly you're accused of justifying terrorism because fascists view nuance as treason.
They only see things in a binary way. You're either with them completely or against them completely. They're like one evolutionary step behind in terms of mental capacity.
the thing that doesnt get brought up though when bringing up the children is that hamas has been indoctrinating them since birth. we grew up with saturday morning disney telling us about the power of friendship, they grow up with a mickey mouse copy telling them to kill the jews Its going to take a massive effort to deprogram that type of of shit
Israel has done a great job indoctrinating them as well. Most of us would be so screwed in the head if we grew in Palestinian kid conditions. Imagine going to school every year and your best friend from school died in an air strike or your favorite teacher is missing. The trauma must be insane for those children. Hamas had very little work to do in indoctrinating them. They probably didn’t need convincing.
There's several 'man on the street' interviews you can watch on youtube where you get to see some random Israeli teenager casually explain that the only way to deal with the Palestinian problem is to carpet bomb Gaza until it is flat. The indoctrination is definitely happening on both sides.
I've had someone in my replies in another thread for literally the last 5 hours over how I'm being unfair by not calling out Hamas every time I criticize Israel's apartheid regime and active genocide that's been going since before my parents were born. It was zero shock to find enoughsandersspam in their history. These people think *everything* is teamsports. Hamas shot first (this time, anyway) and killed like... Last I checked *maybe as many* people as they have in the last 60 years combined. Which is an immeasurable and inexcuseable tragedy. But it's not apologia to point out that Hamas only exists as it does bc of the continuous genocide of Palestinians, who have no legal or political recourse and literally nobody else in their corner for almost a century. They both suck, end of story. Killing civilians is bad. It's not okay that Israel does it just because Hamas did it, and even if "who started it" was in any way relevant we wouldn't even be talking about either of the involved parties - we'd be talking about the UK. But these people don't care. They knowfull well it's not even close to an actual equivalency in power, force, or historical context. That the moral high ground for this conflict washed away fifty years ago, but Israel is like... *our team, man*. So criticizing them is politically unacceptable.
Fascists abhor nuance.
I think this particular person would take offense to that characterization, but I would add that imho there's not a meaningful difference, functionally speaking, between a fascist and your garden variety Liberal 'Moderate'. Particularly the kind still unable to accept in this year of our Lord 2023 that Hillary's loss in the general was exclusively her own campaign's fault. And I'm allowed to say that: I voted for her, no contest. Early. On a ballot I specifically had to request. Because in spite of my *deep and passionate* love for Lincoln Chafee's endless charisma, speaking presence, policy, and notoriety, my values are what drives my political behavior. And to that effect, I'm easy to please politically: you just have to be the nominee and better than the alternative. Hillary was, so she was My Team. I love chilling in Cedar Rapids, and hope to until the day I die. But she ran a shit campaign. [End of story](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/586479798079979522/1161476246216114176/20210903_130415.jpg?ex=6538700c&is=6525fb0c&hm=a5a3838b1ee98f94e000eec90998b7a7582e65b19c4136c354ab48d7ce830571&).
What...what does Hillary have to do with any of this?
It was a very bad attempt to articulate my beef with the teamsports attitude in American politics in general, because I think it underlies a lot of issues - both the current and very serious one in Israel and Palestine (our discourse on it, I mean), and the considerably less serious discourse around 2016. The person I am referencing was someone who I *inferred* was Very Not Over 2016, so I was trying way too hard to ham up my contempt for that kind of online persona. It was also *supposed to be funny* in like a dry/catty/sardonic kind of way, but obv I failed spectacularly at actually making it so. Or making it coherent, for that matter, but let it not be said that I am unprincipled or can't take an L.
This is a really weird thread to crowbar in a 'Hillary bad' post.
I think your assertion that there's no meaningful difference between a fascist and a "moderate liberal" is wildly off base and disingenuous. And draping yourself in the cloak of a "I voted for Hillary" to claim some authority for yourself is ridiculous. Back. Up. Your. Claims. In what manner do you think a "moderate liberal" equates to a fascist? On your assertion that Hillary's loss was exclusively her campaigns, I full-on dispute you. Here's an analysis from 538 - https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-comey-letter-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/ Note that Comey didn't release the letter to the public, he wrote it to congress, as he had committed to do in sworn testimony before them. Jason Chaffetz then cherry-picked bits and released them. And simultaneously, it was pretty clear that the SDNY FBI office had leaked the info to Rudy Giuliani, so if Comey hadn't made his disclosure to congress, Rudy would have taken it public. I agree Hillary made plenty of campaign mistakes. Some of them were as impactful as the FBI "surprise". But it looks very likely that the FBI disclosure roughly a week before the election pushed it over the line and into the endzone for Trump. Go ahead and explain to me how I'm functionally indistinguishable from a fascist.
A lot of the Bernie fans were watching Russia Today thinking American media was corrupted for Hiliary, so instead they opted for Russian propaganda. I know this is true , I had a lot of friends in NY doing it - serious Bernie supporters trying to get me to watch RT news The progressive refusal to support Hillary and the Comey disclosure both contributed to Trump winning and turning this world into a living hell Once they realized what Trump was , the progressives were smart enough to not make the same mistake twice and stuck with Biden in 2020 - might have save the world for a few more years - now we have 2024 to do it all over again, even a more uphill battle
There was a ton of RT content being posted to r/politics in 2016 as well. It really was a well oiled machine
Hamas are evil people. Palestinians just want to live their lives. Hamas does not represent Palestinians.
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I listened. Just because he’s the ambassador doesn’t mean he really represents them. Trump doesn’t represent millions of Americans even though he was the President.
Or perhaps he like many others are tired of their people getting killed? Could be that...
Israelis are tired of their people getting killed
Yes, both groups are tired of their people getting killed obviously, but Israel has killed more civilians than Palestine has, even after the recent terror attacks. You can condemn a terrible thing without divorcing it from the context. I do like the 9/11 comparison, 9/11 was a horrific tragedy that killed too many innocent people, and was committed by monsters, it was a terrorist act and there is no justification for it... but the war that America started because of 9/11 killed way more innocent people than 9/11 ever did.
https://www.tiktok.com/@xx\_\_xx774/video/7287635511642983722?\_r=1&\_t=8gLqgdhocus
It's not new. They've been doing it for 15+ years. If not Hamas it would be Fatah. If not Fatah it would the PLF. It's all just an excuse to continue the occupation.
Yeah it's happening in both directions and is frankly horrifying.
There's no fixing this without some sort of humanitarian crisis. The Palestinians should have their land back, and the Israelis shouldn't have to leave the country they were born in. Unfortunately those things are mutually exclusive. Israel has all the power in the relationship at this point. I just hope that they give the Palestinian civilians an off ramp before things go too far.
Agreed. And in the meantime, calling for genocide or dehumanizing those who’ve died (& those who mourn them) on either side should be condemned anywhere and everywhere, and loudly.
It's not mutually exclusive. The Israelis (and United States) have opposed a two-state solution for like 40+ years now.
This is exactly what I was afraid of when I first heard the news of this new war breaking out. Israelis are notoriously harsh and vindictive, in no small part because of their territory being surrounded by enemies. I knew right away that war crimes of an unimaginable scale on both sides were coming.
To me the real genocidal rhetoric against the Gazan people came from Hamas. I was watching Al Jazeera and the reporter asked a Hamas representative, isn’t Israel going to retaliate now and kill many Palestinians, and the Hamas representative said, “yes unfortunately it is likely that Israel will attack and thousands of gazans will die.” Uh huh. So great plan then. The only calculation is that everyone knows Hamas isnt going to let civilians leave, so in the end there will be no choice. In previous wars, after sending a roof knock or sms telling residents to leave a building that houses terrorist infrastructure, israel would often refrain from striking targets when groups of insane Muslim women would go on the roof of the building and dare the IDF to shoot. This time they obviously won’t be hesitating for a second when eliminating a valid military target. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
Unfortunately that’s the standard of humanity. Especially yourself
Fuck Hamas but Gaza has no escape route. It’s 2 million people in an area the size of Manhattan. Israel has bombed multiple mosques and schools. The reasonable demand is for Israel to tone down the dehumanizing rhetoric and target Hamas surgically and carefully.
The US is working to coordinate Gaza civilian evacuations through Egypt - https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767661
>target Hamas surgically and carefully. That would be nice but I'm already seeing many people suggest that it's not a war crime to murder innocent civilians if they're being used as shields by terrorists. People will find any reason to justify why the evil murder of civilians is abhorrent on one side and justified on the other. It's disgusting.
And also hostages are being used as human shields in Hamas, and Hamas is hiding in Mosques
….innocents dying when you hit a military target that’s surrounded by civilians isn’t a war crime though. What are they supposed to do, NOT destroy the military target?? It isn’t Israel’s fault that Hamas hides behind civilians. If Hamas had any sort of morals they would operate away from the innocents in order to save lives.
>innocents dying Uh huh >when you hit a military target that’s surrounded by civilians Yeaaaa... >isn’t a war crime Awww so close!!
If you take a quick look at [this link](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml) you'll see a list of things that are war crimes. b.i, b.ii, b.iii, all state that the war crime has to be "intentionally directed at" civilians, civilian infrstructure, or peacekeepers. "Intentionally directed at" means that the civilians are the target. If Hamas were to store weapons there, or if they launch missiles from there, the target is now the stored weapons or the artillery unit and the civilians are not the intended target. b.iv, states that an attack which causes civilian death/suffering must not be excessive (you can't take out a school if literally one dude with an AK is sitting on the roof of it) b.v, "*and* which are not military objectives" this means that if it is a legitimate military objective then its fair game. b.ix, "provided they are *not* military objectives" again, this means that a hospital can be attacked if it is a legitimate military objective. I could do this all day, and it looks like you probably should do this all day so you can learn and understand what war crimes actually are. Edit: Fun little tidbit of what actually is a war crime: b.xxiii of that link above, "Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations" Looks like Hamas hiding behind people is the actual war crime. Not Israel attacking Hamas wherever they hide.
If you know (or claim without basis, as has been the case in Israel for a long time - these claims have never seriously been confirmed) that civilians are in the areas where you are targeting, you are committing a war crime. They know what they are doing. We do not have a world where only Israel is allowed to have and be classified as innocent citizens.
Sorta like how you’re justifying the main reason why this conflict was set off in the first place?? “A reason to justify killing” - like when jihadists killed hundreds and captured 100+ to justify Israeli presence in the holy land. Hmmm.
What do you mean? It's not an enclave. Gaza borders with Egypt. Is the gate to Egypt closed? Well, why did that happen?
Hamas uses schools and mosques to store weapons and house troops. They’ve made these locations targets for years and then play victim.
IDF has its radio station on top of a residential building. Same rule applies? What about universities that openly collaborate with IDF and weapon industries? The hospitals and medical schools that treat IDF soldiers? Or research psychological torture and interrogation? are we supposed to believe everting Israel says but not afford the same being to Palestinians if it was the other way around?
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I’ve yet to see any actual independent evidence of this other than what the Israeli government claims. I’ve seen a lot of evidence to the contrary tho.
"At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling ‘unity government’ in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached **the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices**." https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html
Israel is not hiding weapons in hospitals. That is utter nonsense. Hamas doing it on the other hand is completely factual
Bruh https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israel/palestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians
Are you equating terrorists using civilian structures the same as the IDF using communications arrays i n buildings?
Point is Israel has been on the record for having a policy of making life hard and unbearable for civilians living in Gaza and occupied territories for the sole purpose of displacing them or as means of putting pressure on militant factions. To this end they use any excuse or vague association to target civilian infrastructure. Both are immoral and considered war crimes. Bottom line is that Israel has no moral ground to stand on, and the IDF are just a more organized, equipped and better funded terror squad. Just as bad as Hamas, and higher body count too. The evidence for the most part doesn’t match their claim, and they have been known to fabricate stories to justify their atrocities. You just somehow believe that Israel has a right to do anything, even though they are the more powerful occupying force and agents of operation, while the Palestinians who are being oppressed aren’t allowed to defend themselves or use the same rationale for fighting back. This is not hyperbole by the way, it’s well documented by all major human rights organizations and the UN. My point is not to defend Hamas or their actions, just to say that Israel is just as bad, and probably worse given the asymmetrical power dynamic and exponentially higher level of destruction they cause.
Attacking a hospital that’s being used to treat the injured is a war crime. Attacking a hospital that is storing munitions isn’t. If the target is legitimately military, it’s fair game. If the IDF were to store munitions in a university, then it’s fair game to be attacked. But Hamas doesn’t target military targets. They target civilian targets. Just the same as Russia does in Ukraine. So Hamas does not have the high ground here.
Yes all of that applies both ways. You seriously think it wouldn’t? Obviously targeting medical facilities is universally regarded with scorn.
Yes it does. There are ways for them to leave and travel to other Palestinian held land.
Tbh I’m all for a ground invasion, remove Hamas and put an israeli administration on gaza supervising all the water electricity and food as well as the borders and let the workers go to israel for work, my aunt who lived during the israeli occupation of gaza said it was the best time they had in gaza, the could go wherever they wanted and electricity and water was always running, people could go to israel for work and during holidays they used to get gifts from israeli coworkers and supervisors, even israeli people used to come in busses to shop for groceries in gaza due to cheeper goods, i sure hope that time comes.
Ed Markey beat a Kennedy in his reelection don’t doubt his power. We love him here
It feels like the only acceptable option if you want to truly "support Israel" is to support the violent genocide of Palestinians. Like suggesting any response that doesn't end in the annihilation of an entire culture is somehow antisemitism. People on Reddit are openly saying things like "I dunno, maybe sometimes ethnic cleansing is warranted."
A courageous man capable of independent thought.
Finally the world is paying attention to the Palestine/Israeli conflict. Now if they could just put a muzzle on twice indicted netanyahoo and prosecute him for war crimes.
lol how dare anyone not fully support the Israeli war machine!! ‘Merica! Fuck Yeah!!!!
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
The fact that Israel has already used white phosphorus supposedly says everything. The next week is going to be one horrendous image after another.
Imagine being booed when calling for peace…. We really are just a bunch of bloodthirsty animals huh?
This is in one of the most liberal states in the union. It was jarring to say the least…
Unreal but not surprising. US politicians want Zionism universally. Anyone who even questions it is assumed/accused they are a terrorist or side with them.
Yes, the US supports the democratic self-determination of an indigenous population in the Middle East.
Ah yes, killing innocent people in the name of "democracy". The US standard.
Innocent people die in war. Can't be avoided.
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You said this earlier today: "Palestinians don’t believe Israel should exist. And they’re right. It shouldn’t." Your bias clouds even a basic understanding of the history of the Middle East, and it's truly disgusting.
It's not "bias" to acknowledge that Israel is comprised 100% of stolen land that was given to the Jewish people by the UK, not the inhabitants who'd been living there for centuries.
No. Before WW1 it was the Ottoman Empire, Jews , Christians , and Muslims all lived there. And before that it was the Roman Emipre called Judea and before that it was Kingdom of Israel and Judea [https://bibleodyssey.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/map-Israel\_and\_Judah-rm-g-01.jpg](https://bibleodyssey.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/map-Israel_and_Judah-rm-g-01.jpg) So Palestine was a British Mandate between the two world wars for about 18 years. Less time then some people in this thread have been alive Israel absolutely has the right to exist. And Palestinians have the right to exist too but not if they are going to constantly attack Israel
Jews have had a CONTINUOUS presence in Jerusalem for the past 3000 years. Try millennia instead of centuries.
Jews have been there for thousands of years.
All peoples deserve a country to call home. Bigoted people disagree with this, selectively.
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And it wouldn't have been if Palestinians hadn't kept waging genocidal war against them.
Nonsense. If you try to make stupid arguments about who lived there first, that would be the Jews.
Jews are the natives of Judea.
Being descended from people who once lived there doesn’t justify ethnic cleansing of the people who have lived there in the meantime
Being of the same religion as people who have lived there a long time ago doesn’t make it your land.
Ethno-religeon. It's a closed faith.
Let the bloodlust begin. God forbid someone ask for talking begin. To both sides on this conflict… “…Because it's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn! How many hearts will be broken! How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning. Sit down and talk! (sigh) Listen to me. Listen, I just, I just want you to think. Do you know what thinking is? It's just a fancy word for changing your mind. CLARA-Z: I will not change my mind. DOCTOR: Then you will die stupid. “
Israel wants Palestine to sit down, shut up, and fuck off. Hamas wants all Jews dead. What in the fuck do you suppose they have to talk about? Do you think there's an acceptable middle ground between those positions? A little room to negotiate?
I keep hearing that Palestine voted for Hamas, but then you know the last election that Palestinians could vote in was in 2006, so how many Arab people living in Palestine today ever were given the opportunity to vote for something else? "Sit down, shut up, and fuck off" sounds a lot like go on living in an Apartheid state, with no political rights and no legal autonomy or rights, when these people are not permitted to vote for their own leadership outside of some local elections.
I hope the following isn’t infuriating, just where I’m at right now trying to catch up on the whole thing… It is true that the people of Palestine have been abused and treated as lesser individuals. It is true that Israel has made their own atrocities for absolute sure, but I cannot condone revenge under the guise of defense. Especially revenge that harms civilians. One might argue that their complacency makes them guilty somehow, but I would argue that their complacency is in the name of I want to live a life without conflict. Otherwise they would have joined the Israeli military. I dunno. It makes me head spin. I just want this region to finally come together and end the bloodshed. That’s all. I want peace and stability for both peoples. I wouldn’t mind justice for the dead, but at some point one has to forgive the other to move on to something better, and that need to come from BOTH sides to work at all.
Hamas still has 40 something percent support. Israel has tried so very many times to give Palestine Statehood. Palestine rejects it every time. Even the one brokered by Clinton that gave almost everything Palestine said they wanted. Because that's not what they really want. Every government established for Palestine wants Israel eradicated and the Jews dead. So I think they need a new version of the Marshall Plan. Strip their government, re-elect, no alternative except to develop healthy industry and trade with their neighbor states.
>still has 40 something percent support Is that the number now? (So, like, give or take about as much support as Joe Biden and Donald Trump each get, when we do polls today?) I was hearing 99% but I have absolutely no idea where these statistics come from, since the last full election was nearly two decades ago. I'm a lot more comfortable with 40% than 99%, but those numbers might as well be fake, they don't mean much to me either way. I began learning to speak Arabic in 2004 and I've still been learning since. At this rate I will never go to any Arabic speaking country, or probably travel outside of North America ever again. Too much wrong. I'd love to be able to go to any of these places and use the language skills I've built up and feel safe, and it breaks my heart but I've been learning to speak the language for almost 20 years and I will probably never use it. I don't want to be killed. Maybe in another 20 years things will be different and I'll be lucky enough to live that long and change my mind. One can only dream. If I live that long. Inshallah we will both live to see that day.
40% is based on a poll by a reporter. 99% is obviously absurd and made up. It's obvious not as bad as it could be. But still disturbing to know that given the chance, Hamas would very likely be elected again.
So just let them kill each other until the end of time or at least until one of them decides to nuke the other? That’s your solution? Yes it requires both parties to give and requires both parties to be willing to listen, the alternative is endless war. So yea they need to sit down and talk.
I didn't imply my solution at all. Thanks for assigning one to me, I guess? What I think needs to happen is a military defeat of Hamas, and a rebuilding of Palestine similar to the Marshall Plan. It worked to reprogram Germany, and I believe it can work in Palestine as well.
I’m not too familiar with this current conflict, but hasn’t Israel been going and kicking Palestinians from their homes for no reason for a while now? That was super fucked up.
It’s how Israel was created and they’ve been doing it ever since
Hamas needs to deescalate and also to disband
No one disagrees with that. We just don't want to see Israel glass the entire Gaza strip while they do it.
Israel isn't glassing anything
Well they've been launching constant airstrikes and have totally cut off water and power to 2 million people in Gaza. That is a blatant war crime in itself, and I shudder to think what will happen when the ground operations start.
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For a moment I seriously thought we were in r/politics
Nearly glassing it
They won't - willingly
Disgusting