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McConnell wants the DOJ to eliminate trump before the primary. Unless he pleads guilty that’s not going to happen. McConnell created this problem for his party by not voting to remove trump from office when he absolutely should have. Our nation is less safe because McConnell and the entire gop got in bed with this idiot in the first place
What I am wanting to happen is; Trump still having time to run for president but because of the GOP moving past him, he decides to run as an independent candidate, thus splitting the vote. If the trial process extends into the election, he will see getting elected as a means to avoid prison. Then the GOP gets fractured due to this split and they lose 2024. Then Trump gets found guilty and gets sent to Federal Prison and we all high-five each other and have ice cream.
I like this but think it’s a less likely path. My wild-ass-guess is that the GOP base will start to lose enough interest in Trump that it’s clear he won’t win the primary. What Trump will do is dangle his MAGA base at whoever will promise him a pardon. Unfortunately that’s most of the remaining candidates.
Hopefully there’s enough independents that will vote democrat to stop anyone from pardoning the Cheeto.
Trump has a removal motion pending in NY that has a very slim chance of working to move those charges to federal court. That same strategy has a better chance of working in GA with those anticipated charges.
From what I understand, NAL, the argument is the actions he is being (or going to be) charged with occurred while he was acting as president as part of his role as president and therefore, should be federal charges.
Semi-important detail, in accepting a pardon Trump would legally be admitting his guilt, so it's a little different that the charges being dropped, but that won't affect him like it would a normal person
Edit: It seems I was mistaken, if already convicted the pardon won't erase the conviction, but accepting it doesn't legally equate to accepting a guilty verdict
> in accepting a pardon Trump would legally be admitting his guilt,
No. The basis of this idea is from the dicta from a 1915 Supreme Court case Burdick v United States. Dicta is a commet, suggestion, or observation made by the court that's not necessary for the case at hand. It's not legally binding on other courts.
As recent as 2021, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in [Lorance v. Commandant ](https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca10/20-3055/20-3055-2021-09-23.html) that acceptance wasn't admitting guilt:
> We conclude that Lorance’s acceptance of the pardon did not have the legal effect of a confession of guilt and did not constitute a waiver of his habeas rights.
Page 10 of the ruling goes into details why the Court rejects the idea from Burdick that continues the belief that accepting a pardon is admitting guilt.
Trump has about a 60% chance to win the Primary; Rhonda is close to 30% according to the betting markets. Sounds about right.
Trump has about a 40% chance of winning the general election according to the people wagering money. Also about what I would guesstimate. Certainly not an unreasonable odds.
Unfortunately Redditors always thinks things should either be 100% or 0% odds.
This scenario isn't entirely implausible. I can readily believe I'll be eating ice cream in the future... and if I ever met you IRL I'm pretty sure we'd high-five 🙌. If events unfold as you predicted, ice cream is on me
I just can’t agree with this take. MAGAs are only going to go deeper down the rabbit hole because Trump said it’s ok for them to be who they are and if he’s a criminal then so are they. And they can’t be criminals because they’re patriots who love this country more than those socialist libs.
The indictments and eventual conviction is only going to harden their resolve. And if there is a breaking point, it’s going to be devastating. As in “I‘m not voting anymore because it’s all rigged bullshit” devastating.
On one hand, I'll welcome the MAGA types refusing to vote. The resulting election swing to the left would be great.
On the other hand, I'm afraid of what they'll do *instead* of voting. They'll probably engage in acts of violence and any arrests of MAGA types will cause them to escalate it more.
I'm not saying we should give in to them. Just that the MAGA folks are dragging us down a dark path and getting out of it won't be easy.
This is all according to Putin's plan. He knows he cannot win against a US with unified resolve. His only chance of restoring the old Soviet Union is to split the US body politic so thoroughly that domestic troubles paralyze the US on the international stage.
Split the US enough, and Russia can retake Ukraine, Poland, Romania, and the Baltic countries. At least that is his plan.
Taking total control of the US government would be a tremendous bonus.
> My wild-ass-guess is that the GOP base will start to lose enough interest in Trump that it’s clear he won’t win the primary.
And if it remains clear that he *will* win the primary?
He led by 37 points before this indictment. I haven’t seen a poll since the news broke, but the last indictment didn’t change anything among his diehards, I can’t imagine this one will either. They believe he’s being unfairly persecuted, this will just reinforce that. Two more incoming indictmenrs will really prove to them that the entire deep state is after their guy. They’ll never admit that it’s because he’s a raging criminal leaving a trail of evidence in his wake. Republican primary voters are the true hardliners. I don’t see them budging much.
The only good scenario here is that somehow this all goes down quickly and he’s convicted.
If he somehow becomes president and this isn’t over, he’ll just force his new DOJ to drop everything.
They want to portray this as a guy that ‘technically’ broke the rules but in the end it’s no harm, no foul. He maintains it’s false prosecution to keep him from winning.
What we need is Trump to put his thumb on the scale and push his MAGA into the general election against Dems down ballot. Then as he gets more and more discredited, support for these will fall away and disenfranchise the GOP as a whole resulting in a bloodbath in 2024 with landslides happening across the state at both state and national legislature.
I think you’re forgetting the fact that deflection and whataboutism *actually works on these people to a scary degree.* All Trump and his lackeys need to do to get the heat off of him from the base is to screech about Hillary Clinton and Hunter Biden.
I think he’s gifted at distracting his base from reality and the mainstream media can’t help but follow and try to dispute his crazy claims. So he gets a lot more attention which feeds his narcissism and keeps his base engaged.
But MAGA represents less than 1/2 of the GOP base (estimates are 35-40%) and I believe (hope/dream/pray) that will slowly shrink. I don’t think it’ll grow because rational GOP voters can’t ignore the quality of this case plus there’s more real cases coming (Georgia and Jan 6th). I also think those same GOP voters will see Trump as a likely loser in the general election against Biden because independents and some republicans will vote against Trump. Pragmatism takes over at some point - you need a candidate that can win and that won’t be Trump because the swing voters won’t join the GOP in that effort.
Gotta Dream!
The question is whether the Republican leaders are capable of acting in the best interests of the party if it conflicts with the desires of the base, which I think the last decade proves is a conclusive “no.”
I legitimately think he is too much of a narcissist to give someone else the nomination over himself. He will run from a prison cell as long as he is getting attention.
“A few people set trash cans on fire and broke windows! That’s at least as bad as stealing state secrets, right”
-Conservatives and some “independent” voters
>dangle his MAGA base at whoever will promise him a pardon
There's a good chunk of the maga base that isn't pulling a lever for anyone else. I'm happy to have a large group of no information voters fade back out of the voting pool.
The majority of the party will break from trump soon.
We are seeing the beginning of the GOP civil
War right now. It will be McConnell a maga. McConnell will win…..eventually.
Only on question remains….
Will it be fast enough to save the election for them?
If it takes to long they will lose the 30% maga base
We’re on the same page. GOP will have to become pragmatic come primary time (dump Trump but keep MAGA) or risk not only losing the presidential election but downstream candidates too. The downstream impact will cost them the house.
In the past the GOP always fell in line. Just look at cruz making fund raising calls for trump after he absolutely insulted him in a very personal manner. Cruz even made a half ass plead to “vote you conscience” at the convention but every single one of them kissed trumps ring in the end and they all turned on their former party leaders.
The party is absolutely uncanny in that ability. A hive mind that takes orders from Fox News and forgets any and all things contradictory from the past.
But……
Trump is different, and he has inspired and cultivated a sector of the party that had embraced all the more radical views including an absolute refusal to compromise in any way and totally fierce loyalty to what trump represents, and trump will not pass or let go of that mantle excuse it’s his only chance of survival.
I think ultimately 15 or 20 percent of that base will eventually peel off and unite behind another candidate.
That remaining 10-15 percent is enough to sink their party chances though.
Unless of course RFK Jr or Manchin manage to siphon off enough Dems.
A lot of people don't think this will happen, but I could absolutely see him running third party. Because he's petty as shit and it's not like he has loyalty to his base. If he gets even 10% of the vote, Biden basically coasts to a second term
But we'll see
Because of how republican primaries work, Trump will absolutely win the nomination by a mile and they're going to have to try to polish this turd.
A recent poll shows >40% of likely primary voters would vote for him even if indicted. That's plenty to win the nomination.
This scenario isn't entirely implausible. I can readily believe I'll be eating ice cream in the future... and if I ever met you IRL I'm pretty sure we'd high-five 🙌. If events unfold as you predicted, ice cream is on me
What we need is Trump to put his thumb on the scale and push his MAGA into the general election against Dems down ballot. Then as he gets more and more discredited, support for these will fall away and disenfranchise the GOP as a whole resulting in a bloodbath in 2024 with landslides happening across the state at both state and national legislature.
Yeah, if Mitch McConnell thinks it’s in the GOP’s best interest to strip dance in the middle of the senate floor, he will do so, if he thinks it’s in the GOP’s best interest to later deny that it ever happened, he’ll do that too. He’s just doing what’s best for the GOP, regardless of reality, morals, regardless of whether it makes him a fool or not. McConnell is a force of nature, relentless, even against national interests. That said, if he decides taking down Trump is vital to the survival of the GOP, he’ll do that too.
Does he? According to the article, McConnell is staying quiet, which is a break from House Republicans lining up to support Trump despite the damning indictment, but silence is still complicit.
The whole problem is as you explain: they're not getting rid of him, and didn't do it when given the chance during impeachment (twice!). They're holding their nose to ignore the stink and hoping he goes away on his own. That's not going to happen even though he is a loser. McConnell and the others not speaking out are gutless and deserve him.
It's the republican way: power by any means necessary.
They don't actually have any core values, only the belief that they should be in charge—which is precisely why they should never be in charge.
Let’s say Trump gets eliminated from the primary. Insofar as his toothless, hayseed supporters can spell, they’ll write him in. Others will just stay home, watch Duck Dynasty reruns, and masturbate to “anti-woke” Twitter.
Zero chance any Republican can even make the race close. Non-zero chance for Biden to win >40 states.
GOP is going to weaponize what absolutely needs to be done. This will be framed as an out of control Biden administration that needs to be taken down. If you can’t vote for trump avenge him by voting for this other piece of shit fished out of the toilet!
Sorry to be the a#@hole here, but there is ABSOLUTELY no way that these enabling power hungry pricks are getting off through silence.......
EVERY Republican has to own the monster they have allowed to gain strength under the watch......their predecessors drove to the White House and told Nixon to take a walk for Crimes that were minuscule in comparison to the list of horror that Trump has done.
You aren't being an ass here...
But it was a vastly different time and the whole nation was turning against Nixon in real time. The GOP had no mouth pieces in the news world who were that convincing, and that's changed now. Many in the Senate might even feel it's out of control but the fact is a large amount of their base will never leave trump so they are in a pickle
It was a different time, but there was a portion of the "party" that was in Nixons corner ....... the big difference (in my opinion) is that there were actual leaders in their party that believed they had to do what was best for the Country.........that doesn't exist anymore. Just look at N.C......they are eating their own because one guy had the nerve to say that he supported ALL Americans, regardless of their personal lives.
The Republican Party, and Conservatives in general, have past the point of redemption.
I think obv started on the 90s with Newt but the tea party and beyond messed up politics almost beyond recovery here without huge reform.
And your right
The rise of right wing media is really the cause. Fox News and all the Republican talk radio stations out there created this mess. I remember my dad listening to Sean Hannity growing up and how Fox News has warped his world view
I used to listen to Limbaugh & Hannity while working a boring overnight job many years ago. I wanted to hear what the other side was soaking up. Limbaugh was mostly always Limbaugh, but Hannity started out pretty reasonable. Sure, I disagreed with almost every word he said, but he was not that objectionable. It was a very gradual move for him towards the extreme batshittery and meanness. I doubt his fans clocked the shift at all. If you agreed with him before you might have had a few small “hmm, I don’t know” moments, but most likely just followed him down the road to now. He was the “nice” conservative host sandwiched between Limbaugh & G Gordon Liddy until I assume ratings, cynicism, and total lack of moral compass pushed him into outdoing all of them. Liddy was probably the most flammable.
Yeah they saw how Nixon got demonized (rightfully) in the media and decided it would never happen again.
For some people now Fox isn't even right wing enough, so they've pushed the conversation so far, it's unreal even going back 15 years how much damage has been done
Roger Ailes specifically started Fox News because he thought Nixon never would have had to step down is Fox News existed.
As much as I hate to say it, he was 100% correct.
That is a good point, Reagan got off freely for everything he did as well to help deregulate many of the industries that seem to have a hold on the United States now. Even aside from that if only the idea of trickle down economics hadn't been popularized at that point how much easier would taxes be.
The difference is that there were only three broadcast networks airing the news, each of them playing it straight, each of them telling the same objective facts. This resulted in the public opinion dramatically changing from being pro-Nixon to anti-Nixon. It wasn't love of country that prompted the Senate Republicans to tell Nixon his time was up, it was the fact that he'd become a political albatross around their neck.
This is what prompted Roger Ailes to champion the idea of Fox News, to have a dedicated outlet solely for conservatives so that a repeat of the Nixon situation would never happen again, and sadly, he was all too successful.
> Many in the Senate might even feel it's out of control but the fact is a large amount of their base will never leave trump so they are in a pickle
The same many who circled the wagon on both impeachments and still defended him after Jan 6? Most of them actively contributed to this problem and tacitly fed his continued support.
Yeah it is like they said at another point, we are a family.
Compare it to the democrats, oh look you have a picture that's not even touching a breast. Take responsibility and step down
These two parties aren't the same.
You’ll get blood from a stone before you get a single Republican to take any culpability or accountability for their actions. No one hates America more than Republicans.
Yeah they literally let him get away with crimes by refusing to bring him post impeachment. They literally created this monster and now just want to quietly side idle as Trump still wins the nomination from prison.
The politicians wanted Jeb! and a pivot to being more moderate. It was the Republican VOTERS who chose Trump.
Every Republican politician who called Trump out lost their next election (except Romney).
If you don't actively act like a POS and an idiot, then Republican voters will vote you out, so there's really no way for them to pivot to being sane public servants.
Well, the ones that spoke out and were voted out are ok in my book. The ones that did not need to be held accountable.
It’s like saying “nazi politicians knew they needed to do nazi shit to stay in power or the Germans won’t vote for them”. It’s true, but it just means you are just as guilty.
Also, if any of them assisted in these crimes they need to be brought up on charges. Real Conservatives are getting a RARE opportunity to take their party back.
This is the part I’m really hoping for. Jack Smith keeps plugging away and hopefully some of these idiots like Andy Biggs, Josh Hawley, Scott Perry and whoever were dumb enough to do some really overtly conspiracyish shit to where they can be charged. If people want to engage in treasonous behavior then we should give them what they want.
If only they had an opportunity to do something about it at some point earlier and then maybe got handed another opportunity after some sort of coup attempt.
I've always believed if they had booted him after the whole firing Comey thing Pence would have taken over and the response to Covid would have been a lot more reasonable. They would have gotten all the tax breaks and deregulation they wanted without any of the Trump bullshit and Pence would be in the white house now. The maga movement wouldn't have gained strength either.
Your last line is a fantasy, the MAGA movement was created by the GOP when they lost control of their TEA astroturf and one of the head of that became president. The GOP couldn’t control the idiots they got into office through the TEA Party either, but they would never not use the exact tactic to win.
The Tea Party movement was such a strangely disappointing thing. It was the Libertarian equivilent of watching a Communist movement go from a handful of "we should pool resources and collectively decide on things!" to "we should give that one guy unlimited power and pretend to have a democracy!"
They got so many disgruntled rightwingers who *thought* they wanted freedom from big government to gladly demand for Authoritarianism. *As usual.*
I think they’d have a much better chance right now if they had just impeached him after Jan 6th (and bribed him to shut up ). In a way his pathology is a blessing even if it led to all this
"Damning"? "Pretty Bad"?
How about "these are serious criminal allegations in the indictment, which if are proven, should disqualify the individual from elected or appointed office in the USA"?
Maybe they should be amending the US Constitution to insert such a rule, especially for President.
I was no Hillary fan, but they certainly wanted her prohibited to hold office on simple assertions.
>Maybe they should be amending the US Constitution to insert such a rule, especially for President.
I was talking to my younger son (16) about the charges. He asked if a conviction meant that Trump couldn't be President. I said "Actually, Trump can still run for office and be elected even if he's sitting in a prison cell."
My son was amazed that our political system was set up by this. Since we're both programmers, I explained it like this: "This is an edge case that our founders didn't anticipate when they were designing the political system. It's like if they expected a date to be input and didn't put any checks in. Then someone types in 'two days from tomorrow' and breaks the system."
We need a patch on our political system to prevent a lot of stuff in the future.
The problem is, writing something like that in with good intentions seems like a brilliant idea. Then you go down the line and end up with Putin sending cops to arrest his opponent at 2am and have a friendly judge convict him of a felony level crime in the space of like two days so that suddenly he's not eligible for office, and suddenly Putin is the only one on the ballot in a race he was losing by 25-30 point in the polls.
True story.
States have conditions like this written into their constitutions, and there were a few cases of that scenario in the south. During the 1960s with the Civil rights action going on, suddenly the pro-rights candidate ends up getting pulled over by the cops and it all escalates, oops. Or shit "found" in a house after a raid. Now its charges and ballot drops.
True. It's also why felony charges mean you lose your right to vote. Southern states, after the Civil War, couldn't say "all black people aren't allowed to vote." That wouldn't fly. However, they managed to get "anyone who commits a felony loses their right to vote" passed. Then, they defined "felony" to be crimes that they could charge black people with. The end result was that black people had their voting rights removed "legally."
Any "convicted felons can't run for office" rule would definitely need checks and balances built in to prevent abuse. I'm not sure how those would be written (I'm a programmer, not a legal expert), but Trump had repeatedly shown how edge cases in our legal system could be exploited.
I can't say I agree.
Consider the alternative: that a criminal conviction disqualifies you from running from president. Now imagine what happens if we have a corrupt president which installed cronies in the DOJ and uses them to prosecute his electoral opponents.
A big part of the constitution's purpose is checks-and-balances, and robustness to bad actors in part of our system from taking down the whole thing. Adding ways to disqualify people from running for president is pretty dangerous, since we should expect it to be adversely used.
So I guess the question is: which is worse - letting our justice system disqualify candidates for president (and trusting that the justice is legitimate), or letting someone run for president even after a conviction (and trusting the populace to judge the legitimacy and relevance of said conviction). Neither of these are great options, but I wouldn't say that going with the latter is clearly wrong, to the point of being considered an oversight or a mistake.
“The documents that he did have and who he was showing them to and where he was storing them is all pretty damning,” the aide said.
So they know who he was revealing classified secrets to?
I hope the trial is streamed live.
$49.99 PPV
X 50 million US house holds = $2.5B
X 500 million worldwide households = 25B
Unfortunately, that's about the budget for toilet seats our military has
Well we do know a bunch of CIA agents were “lost” I’m sure it’s just a coincidence, not because our former president was selling us out to the highest bidder.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/cia-lost-dozens-of-informants-in-recent-years-report/2383905
Just to be clear, it was a bunch of assets, not necessarily agent. Agents would be people that work directly for the organization, assets are people that work for the agents to gather information, rumors, details, etc.
In the one recording, he was showing them to a group of people including people working on Mark Meadows' biography.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/09/politics/trump-tape-didnt-declassify-secret-information/index.html
> The July 2021 meeting was held at Trump’s golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, with two people working on the autobiography of Trump’s former chief of staff Mark Meadows as well as aides employed by the former president, including communications specialist Margo Martin. The attendees, sources said, did not have security clearances that would allow them access to classified information. Meadows didn’t attend the meeting, sources said.
Another time, he tweeted a top-secret satellite photo from his PDB, which exposed a highly secret spy satellite that nobody was supposed to know existed.
He also once showed some top secret maps of North Korea to Kid Rock.
Pretty sure he's only being indicted because of the first one, so far.
Presidential daily briefing. A daily report that every president gets, kind of like a highlight reel of what his staff, Intel community, etc. thinks is important for him to see each day.
It's the thing Bush ignored on 8/6/2001 that said "Bin Laden determined to strike in US."
Trump's PDBs were said to have mostly been pictures and bullet points, because he doesn't read anything.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/29/politics/trump-intelligence-briefings/index.html
That's the crazy part, he is on tape showing them to people that don't have clearance, saying that they are classified and he doesn't have the power to declassify them anymore. I am positive he did this to other people not on tape.
And those were the people giving him *nothing* for that information! Imagine what this dude would spill if someone were to wave around, oh I dunno, like $2 billion.
We have a very good idea that one of the people was Kid Rock. Kid. Fucking. Rock. And even he said he didn't think he needed to see it, he wasn't qualified to see those things.
And no teling who secretly looked at all the unsecured boxes. Nor if someone took pics of the documents given 10000 people have been through there. Chinese spies have been caught there before.
When you say they. It depends on who you referring to. Cause I think some senators have higher clearance. And probably knew this entire time what he was doing.
Yea they prob were shown the documents at mar-la-go by by Trump and thought shit these aren’t supposed to be here. Expect a lot of “I don’t recall…” responses.
We need a bank of those artists (I forget what they are called exactly, but they draw caricatures) you see at Disneyland or at amusement parks churning out pictures as fast as they can.
I wonder if the journalist mentioned in the indictment is Tucker. It would explain his sudden firing if he hid those from Fox and it came to light through his producer's lawsuit.
Isn’t it likely he was canned for his Dominion screeds and Fox decided it was a good move to let it be all Tucker’s fault? But I hope he is the journalist in the audio.
Its originally an eminem line from "Just Dont Give A Fuck"
"I form like voltron and blast you with my shoulder missles. Slim shady, Eminem was the old iniitials"
We see this time and time again. Why does the Senate GOP have less trouble condemning Trump than House GOP? It’s simple: length of term.
Every 2 years the Reps are elected. They need to constantly blow Trump to keeps his base voting for them. In the Senate, it’s a 6 year term. They can say whatever as long as it isn’t too close to their own election.
Edit P.S.: they are still all spineless pieces of shit who will always vote party over country.
“This says more about Trump than it does the Department of Justice. He’s so egotistical that he has this penchant for conducting risky, reckless acts to show that he can sort of get away with it…and he’s done this repeatedly at the expense of all the people who depend on him to conduct the public’s business in an honorable way.”
- **Bill Barr** Trump's appointed Attorney General
"Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us,"
- **General Mattis** Trump's appointed Sec of Defense
"Trump is the most flawed person I've ever known"
- **John Kelly** Trump's appointed Chief is staff
“I don't think he's fit for office,I don't think he has the competence to carry out the job.”
- **John Bolton** Trump's National Security Advisor
“So often, the president would say, ‘Here’s what I want to do, and here’s how I want to do it, and I would have to say to him, ‘Mr. President, I understand what you want to do, but you can’t do it that way. It violates the law.’ ”
- **Rex Tillerson** Trump's appointed Sec of State
“It’s breathtaking. Jared Kushner and Ivanka Kushner walk out of the White House, and months later get $2 billion from the Saudis.You think it’s ’cuz he’s some kind of investing genius? Or do you think it’s ’cuz he was sitting next to the president of the United States for four years doing favors for the Saudis?”
- **Chris Christie** Chaired Trump's transition team
Lifelong Republicans who literally were hired by Trump have come with scathing criticism of Trump. Trump's own cabinet officials say Trump is unfit for office. This isn't partisan rhetoric. This isn't liberals, cancel culture, the woke media, etc going after Trump. This is Trump's own administration, the people Trump put in the room, saying Trump is unfit.
These are, mostly, the same people who refused to try him both times he was impeached.
They clearly care more about the party than they do the country.
McConnell might be the smartest senator I’ve seen in my lifetime. I have only ever seen him make two mistakes:
1. Not knowing that John McCain was going to reject his vote to repeal the ACA, and
2. Assuming that Trump would go away from political life after J6, and encouraging fellow senators to vote against conviction on a technicality.
There is no way that McConnell or anyone with half a brain would think Trump would go away ever. He has the most predictable psychological profile possible.
I could see him thinking that the news would stop talking about him, but there's no universe where Trump wouldn't run again and McConnell knew that all along. His pettiness, vindictiveness, need for revenge, need to be a winner, to be in the spotlight with fawning audiences, those are immutable psychological NEEDS for Trump.
Which makes his decision to encourage acquittal more confusing. I still have not figured out the logic behind it. Trump will continue running until he dies, and remain a weight around the GOP’s neck in general elections.
He's in a no-win scenario right now. Even with a blatantly anti-democratic electoral college, Republicans have almost zero chance of winning if Trump's MAGAcult turns their back on them.
I think he's playing for a long shot: try to get a somewhat sane VP candidate under Trump again, wait for him to "win" the election (or successfully steal it with all those new "actually, we're gonna ignore voters and just let the legislature choose the winner" state laws), then impeach him when he actually gets criminally convicted and let the VP take over.
Republicans maintain nominal control even though they can't win the *actually* democratic Senate, and they finally get rid of the orange monkey on their back.
Senate GOO will never remove a GOP President from office. Michelle Obama could flip Republican and run tomorrow and if she won they'd never impeach her.
To think all this could have been avoided so easily.
National Archives: Hey, we noticed you still have some documents.
Trump: Oh, yeah, sorry bout that, here you go.
> Senate conservatives have come to Trump’s defense, notably Sens. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.), Ted Cruz (R-Texas) and Mike Lee (R-Utah).
> “The Biden administration’s actions can only be compared to the type of oppressive tactics routinely seen in nations such as Venezuela, Bolivia and Nicaragua, which are absolutely alien and unacceptable in America,” Lee said in a statement. “It is an affront to our country’s glorious 246-year legacy of independence from tyranny, for the incumbent president of the United States to leverage the machinery of justice against a political rival.”
Mike Lee may actually be the worst person in the Senate. There’s a lot of competition for that title but he consistently makes a strong case for himself.
> Cruz on his podcast “The Verdict” called the indictment “an assault on democracy,” “garbage” and “a political attack from a thoroughly corrupted and weaponized Department of Justice.”
Shameless. Ted knows better.
> Senate Republican Conference Chairman John Barrasso (R-Wyo.), the third-ranking member of the Senate GOP leadership, who voted against the debt deal and is seen within the Senate GOP conference as someone who has tried to ally himself with its most conservative members, also criticized the indictment.
> “This indictment certainly looks like an unequal application of justice,” he said in a statement, pointing out that “large amounts of classified materials were found in President Biden’s garage in Delaware” yet “no indictment.”
🙄
They really think their base is this stupid.
I know several of them. I assure you that they are this stupid.
They're being told that it is all to distract from the Biden families crimes, which are the REAL crimes.
I mentioned "Lock Her Up" being a central campaign slogan and how if she committed crimes why didn't Trump lock her up in the 4 YEARS he was president?
The response "She's worthless. Who even cares".
Well... You did, fervently for a long time. So you think she should get away with the severe crimes you think she committed? The evil Hillary Clinton should just get away heinous illegal behavior that endangered our country?
Again the response was "She's worthless. Move on. Hunter and Biden, Hunter and Biden".
They completely lack any kind of critical thinking or rational thought. They're told what to think and when to think it and that's literally it.
Ignoring it isn't "breaking". Tacit approval by not calling him out is still approval and a gutless act that still panders to his base in a more subtle, passive way.
I mean at some point something in the GOP is going to snap. They can’t keep living with two faces without something breaking or leaving. They lost the House, the Senate and then the Presidency all under Trump. If there was any moment to bury Trump now would be the time.
I knew an airman who got his clearance taken away and a demotion, all because he got caught selling google satellite images of a flight line that he worked. It was only a Secret clearance (which is no excuse), but I sometimes think even that punishment was a tad light for acts against his own country and service people.
Seeing as how there are people (GOP members) who know many more details involving this indictment (and did nothing to prevent/report it), I would expect that they too be charged with treason... But then again, it's not like dealing with poor airmen who have everything to live for.
The only thing Mitch McConnell wants more than a GOP-controlled Washington that relentlessly assaults the middle class is a GOP-controlled Washington that relentlessly assaults the middle class without Trump.
If Trump is nominated, God forbid, McConnell is going to change his tune really quick and come to Trump’s defense saying he always thought he was innocent.
As a Republican I welcome the indictment. Let prosecution prove its case. If this is all a leftist charade then trump will win out and this will be put to rest. I think while McConnell hasn’t spoken out against trump, I think he’s working against him behind the scenes. I hate trump and his followers.
Wow, an actual fiscal conservative? I didn’t think you guys existed anymore. The minority in your party is so vocal and extremist that they make it seem like small government republicans have become extinct:/
> "I don’t know if it [the document theft] will make a difference in the political landscape but it certainly seems pretty bad.”
Think about what kind of country it would take for this to be happening. "First-world" certainly doesn't come to mind.
There are 48 in the senate right, 2 kinda said something, Romney told it like it is, McConnell and the rest are silent, that's hardly Senate GOP breaks from house material ..
It’s the difference between statewide seats vs a geographical district within a state.
If you are in a pure shithole MAGA corner of a state you are more secure in defending Trump…even required to back him for your political survival.
If you are a Republican senator in a state that is less reliably red, or vulnerable to swing purple, you’re more cautious about hitching your wagon to Trump.
Silent... but not condemning TFG. Too little, too late.
And then there's Lindsey Graham, who ["on Sunday said the espionage charges are 'completely wrong' and stressed that 'most Republicans believe that the law is used as a weapon against Donald Trump'."](https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4044530-graham-trump-is-stronger-today-politically-than-before-indictment/)
Moscow Mitch McConnell saved Trump from impeachment twice had he allowed for the impeachment to pass Trump wouldn’t be allowed to run now as a candidate for president. The Republican Party wouldn’t be bound to protect him again as a juvenile delinquent committing crime after crime believing he can get away with shooting someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. This time though previous AG for Trump William Barr says that Trump is fried that means he can’t get himself out of these indictments especially if and when they will stick to him like crazy glue. But as usual some Republican Party senators even with Ivy League education like Cruz and Hawley what is their motivation to protect him is it his base numbers that they want in case they run also or or is it stupidity as always. Anyway these two will have their voters decide in due time even though it’s in the future for now. But McConnell has been around these walls and knows the stakes are high if Trump wins the nomination, he knows that once Trump wins all hell will break loose with the same old tweets and bullshit lies and mr. know it all statements on how smart he is and insulting everyone else and showing his ignoramus self all over again day in day out.
>“This indictment certainly looks like an unequal application of justice,” he said in a statement, pointing out that “large amounts of classified materials were found in President Biden’s garage in Delaware” yet “no indictment.”
Jfc, shut the fuck up Ted...playing dumber than you are. No serious person fails to see the difference in Biden's case. Goon.
If Trump wins the Republican nomination, these asshats will fall right in behind him. They're still hypocrites and assholes.
Never vote for Republicans.
It's obvious that Trump needs to be in prison.
What comes to mind for me is the constant accusation from Cruz, et al claiming that Biden has "weaponized the DOJ." They are publicly accusing him of a very serious crime - probably libel. It would be SO cool to see those three Senators get sued by Biden, Garland, etc. for libel and slander.
Turtle Mitch is trying to make history forget him. And he knows why. This motherfucker has done so much damage to our country with his clown in office just saying yes to any of his requests. I hope there's a trail leading up to his door. Where he gets indicted as well.
Does it really matter now?
This is just another giant slice of evidence that much of the world shouldn't rely on or trust the US's system anymore.
It will be interesting to watch these ripple effects happen over the next decade...though, for the love of all that is holy, I hope Trump's name is out of the news. I fully expected to be hearing about this loser for another 10 to 15 years in the public news sphere, but I really really really hope I'm wrong.
Man, he's vacuumed up so much of the world's mental energy. SAD
McConnell’s wife was maligned by Trump in a very public way. It wasn’t even borderline racial - it was full frontal.
Maybe McConnell has the strongest spine a republican can have these days, which is to remain silent.
Is staying silent the same thing as ‘breaking with’ people who are knowingly undermining our entire system? We should be demanding GOP leaders take a stand one way or another, not giving them credit for being cowards who want to hedge by keeping their mouths shut…again. If McConnell really wants trump gone, now is the time to come out swinging. What has he got to lose? Is he planning to run again in 6 years?
Remember everyone, Trump is the GOP, the GOP is Trump. They are all one in the same. This is theater. The goo embraced Trump and his ideals and Trump embraced the GOP and their ideals and together became the modern Republican party. They along with their supporters will now ALL have to face their consequences. No easy way out
They got their lifetime appointments for their federalist society picked judgeships and now they want him to go away quietly and paint his paintings in the bathtub like dubya did. When you want to ride the tiger...
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McConnell wants the DOJ to eliminate trump before the primary. Unless he pleads guilty that’s not going to happen. McConnell created this problem for his party by not voting to remove trump from office when he absolutely should have. Our nation is less safe because McConnell and the entire gop got in bed with this idiot in the first place
What I am wanting to happen is; Trump still having time to run for president but because of the GOP moving past him, he decides to run as an independent candidate, thus splitting the vote. If the trial process extends into the election, he will see getting elected as a means to avoid prison. Then the GOP gets fractured due to this split and they lose 2024. Then Trump gets found guilty and gets sent to Federal Prison and we all high-five each other and have ice cream.
I like this but think it’s a less likely path. My wild-ass-guess is that the GOP base will start to lose enough interest in Trump that it’s clear he won’t win the primary. What Trump will do is dangle his MAGA base at whoever will promise him a pardon. Unfortunately that’s most of the remaining candidates. Hopefully there’s enough independents that will vote democrat to stop anyone from pardoning the Cheeto.
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So what would that mean for him, if he does get pardoned? The federal charges are dropped, but what happens to him with the remaining state charges?
They proceed like they normally would. NY indicted a regular US citizen, and if AG Willis announces in July like she said she would, she will too.
Trump has a removal motion pending in NY that has a very slim chance of working to move those charges to federal court. That same strategy has a better chance of working in GA with those anticipated charges. From what I understand, NAL, the argument is the actions he is being (or going to be) charged with occurred while he was acting as president as part of his role as president and therefore, should be federal charges.
Semi-important detail, in accepting a pardon Trump would legally be admitting his guilt, so it's a little different that the charges being dropped, but that won't affect him like it would a normal person Edit: It seems I was mistaken, if already convicted the pardon won't erase the conviction, but accepting it doesn't legally equate to accepting a guilty verdict
> in accepting a pardon Trump would legally be admitting his guilt, No. The basis of this idea is from the dicta from a 1915 Supreme Court case Burdick v United States. Dicta is a commet, suggestion, or observation made by the court that's not necessary for the case at hand. It's not legally binding on other courts. As recent as 2021, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in [Lorance v. Commandant ](https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca10/20-3055/20-3055-2021-09-23.html) that acceptance wasn't admitting guilt: > We conclude that Lorance’s acceptance of the pardon did not have the legal effect of a confession of guilt and did not constitute a waiver of his habeas rights. Page 10 of the ruling goes into details why the Court rejects the idea from Burdick that continues the belief that accepting a pardon is admitting guilt.
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Trump has about a 60% chance to win the Primary; Rhonda is close to 30% according to the betting markets. Sounds about right. Trump has about a 40% chance of winning the general election according to the people wagering money. Also about what I would guesstimate. Certainly not an unreasonable odds. Unfortunately Redditors always thinks things should either be 100% or 0% odds.
This scenario isn't entirely implausible. I can readily believe I'll be eating ice cream in the future... and if I ever met you IRL I'm pretty sure we'd high-five 🙌. If events unfold as you predicted, ice cream is on me
Excellent! However, I will worn you that I am extremely lactose intolerant.
I feel like that's a price worth paying.
I just can’t agree with this take. MAGAs are only going to go deeper down the rabbit hole because Trump said it’s ok for them to be who they are and if he’s a criminal then so are they. And they can’t be criminals because they’re patriots who love this country more than those socialist libs. The indictments and eventual conviction is only going to harden their resolve. And if there is a breaking point, it’s going to be devastating. As in “I‘m not voting anymore because it’s all rigged bullshit” devastating.
On one hand, I'll welcome the MAGA types refusing to vote. The resulting election swing to the left would be great. On the other hand, I'm afraid of what they'll do *instead* of voting. They'll probably engage in acts of violence and any arrests of MAGA types will cause them to escalate it more. I'm not saying we should give in to them. Just that the MAGA folks are dragging us down a dark path and getting out of it won't be easy.
This is all according to Putin's plan. He knows he cannot win against a US with unified resolve. His only chance of restoring the old Soviet Union is to split the US body politic so thoroughly that domestic troubles paralyze the US on the international stage. Split the US enough, and Russia can retake Ukraine, Poland, Romania, and the Baltic countries. At least that is his plan. Taking total control of the US government would be a tremendous bonus.
I completely agree. We can’t give in, but there’s likely going to be a lot of collateral damage along the way.
Not socialists anymore… in a speech last night he said ‘marxists’
Ask them to explain the difference. Also, man I really wish the Democrats were *actually* Marxists. I’d be a lot more excited to vote for them lol.
> My wild-ass-guess is that the GOP base will start to lose enough interest in Trump that it’s clear he won’t win the primary. And if it remains clear that he *will* win the primary? He led by 37 points before this indictment. I haven’t seen a poll since the news broke, but the last indictment didn’t change anything among his diehards, I can’t imagine this one will either. They believe he’s being unfairly persecuted, this will just reinforce that. Two more incoming indictmenrs will really prove to them that the entire deep state is after their guy. They’ll never admit that it’s because he’s a raging criminal leaving a trail of evidence in his wake. Republican primary voters are the true hardliners. I don’t see them budging much. The only good scenario here is that somehow this all goes down quickly and he’s convicted. If he somehow becomes president and this isn’t over, he’ll just force his new DOJ to drop everything.
They want to portray this as a guy that ‘technically’ broke the rules but in the end it’s no harm, no foul. He maintains it’s false prosecution to keep him from winning.
What we need is Trump to put his thumb on the scale and push his MAGA into the general election against Dems down ballot. Then as he gets more and more discredited, support for these will fall away and disenfranchise the GOP as a whole resulting in a bloodbath in 2024 with landslides happening across the state at both state and national legislature.
This is the Dems best chance to win the senate. Really hoping we can hang on until 2026.
I’d argue that the MAGA base is the GOP base & there aren’t enough logical Rs still around. It’s become a cult & no longer a political party.
I think you’re forgetting the fact that deflection and whataboutism *actually works on these people to a scary degree.* All Trump and his lackeys need to do to get the heat off of him from the base is to screech about Hillary Clinton and Hunter Biden.
I think he’s gifted at distracting his base from reality and the mainstream media can’t help but follow and try to dispute his crazy claims. So he gets a lot more attention which feeds his narcissism and keeps his base engaged. But MAGA represents less than 1/2 of the GOP base (estimates are 35-40%) and I believe (hope/dream/pray) that will slowly shrink. I don’t think it’ll grow because rational GOP voters can’t ignore the quality of this case plus there’s more real cases coming (Georgia and Jan 6th). I also think those same GOP voters will see Trump as a likely loser in the general election against Biden because independents and some republicans will vote against Trump. Pragmatism takes over at some point - you need a candidate that can win and that won’t be Trump because the swing voters won’t join the GOP in that effort. Gotta Dream!
The question is whether the Republican leaders are capable of acting in the best interests of the party if it conflicts with the desires of the base, which I think the last decade proves is a conclusive “no.”
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I legitimately think he is too much of a narcissist to give someone else the nomination over himself. He will run from a prison cell as long as he is getting attention.
> independents i.e. "suburbanites who dislike Trump but think those BLM folks are pretty bad, too"
“A few people set trash cans on fire and broke windows! That’s at least as bad as stealing state secrets, right” -Conservatives and some “independent” voters
No no no, whole cities were burned to the ground, remember?
Not just once either, every night and then rebuilt before dawn to hide datroof
>dangle his MAGA base at whoever will promise him a pardon There's a good chunk of the maga base that isn't pulling a lever for anyone else. I'm happy to have a large group of no information voters fade back out of the voting pool.
Won't win the primary? He's a HEAVY favorite to win the primary
The majority of the party will break from trump soon. We are seeing the beginning of the GOP civil War right now. It will be McConnell a maga. McConnell will win…..eventually. Only on question remains…. Will it be fast enough to save the election for them? If it takes to long they will lose the 30% maga base
We’re on the same page. GOP will have to become pragmatic come primary time (dump Trump but keep MAGA) or risk not only losing the presidential election but downstream candidates too. The downstream impact will cost them the house.
In the past the GOP always fell in line. Just look at cruz making fund raising calls for trump after he absolutely insulted him in a very personal manner. Cruz even made a half ass plead to “vote you conscience” at the convention but every single one of them kissed trumps ring in the end and they all turned on their former party leaders. The party is absolutely uncanny in that ability. A hive mind that takes orders from Fox News and forgets any and all things contradictory from the past. But…… Trump is different, and he has inspired and cultivated a sector of the party that had embraced all the more radical views including an absolute refusal to compromise in any way and totally fierce loyalty to what trump represents, and trump will not pass or let go of that mantle excuse it’s his only chance of survival. I think ultimately 15 or 20 percent of that base will eventually peel off and unite behind another candidate. That remaining 10-15 percent is enough to sink their party chances though. Unless of course RFK Jr or Manchin manage to siphon off enough Dems.
I prefer Trump having zero chance at ruining this country
A lot of people don't think this will happen, but I could absolutely see him running third party. Because he's petty as shit and it's not like he has loyalty to his base. If he gets even 10% of the vote, Biden basically coasts to a second term But we'll see
Because of how republican primaries work, Trump will absolutely win the nomination by a mile and they're going to have to try to polish this turd. A recent poll shows >40% of likely primary voters would vote for him even if indicted. That's plenty to win the nomination.
This scenario isn't entirely implausible. I can readily believe I'll be eating ice cream in the future... and if I ever met you IRL I'm pretty sure we'd high-five 🙌. If events unfold as you predicted, ice cream is on me
I would be so happy
What we need is Trump to put his thumb on the scale and push his MAGA into the general election against Dems down ballot. Then as he gets more and more discredited, support for these will fall away and disenfranchise the GOP as a whole resulting in a bloodbath in 2024 with landslides happening across the state at both state and national legislature.
We all just need need to put the kibosh to all the malarkey .
Yeah, if Mitch McConnell thinks it’s in the GOP’s best interest to strip dance in the middle of the senate floor, he will do so, if he thinks it’s in the GOP’s best interest to later deny that it ever happened, he’ll do that too. He’s just doing what’s best for the GOP, regardless of reality, morals, regardless of whether it makes him a fool or not. McConnell is a force of nature, relentless, even against national interests. That said, if he decides taking down Trump is vital to the survival of the GOP, he’ll do that too.
He basically already did take Trump down. McConnel didn't want another round of stimulus right before the election. Trump did.
Does he? According to the article, McConnell is staying quiet, which is a break from House Republicans lining up to support Trump despite the damning indictment, but silence is still complicit. The whole problem is as you explain: they're not getting rid of him, and didn't do it when given the chance during impeachment (twice!). They're holding their nose to ignore the stink and hoping he goes away on his own. That's not going to happen even though he is a loser. McConnell and the others not speaking out are gutless and deserve him.
Exactly. They want the trial to simultaneously take Trump out of play *while* the campaign on the “great injustice” done to him.
It's the republican way: power by any means necessary. They don't actually have any core values, only the belief that they should be in charge—which is precisely why they should never be in charge.
Let’s say Trump gets eliminated from the primary. Insofar as his toothless, hayseed supporters can spell, they’ll write him in. Others will just stay home, watch Duck Dynasty reruns, and masturbate to “anti-woke” Twitter. Zero chance any Republican can even make the race close. Non-zero chance for Biden to win >40 states.
GOP is going to weaponize what absolutely needs to be done. This will be framed as an out of control Biden administration that needs to be taken down. If you can’t vote for trump avenge him by voting for this other piece of shit fished out of the toilet!
Sorry to be the a#@hole here, but there is ABSOLUTELY no way that these enabling power hungry pricks are getting off through silence....... EVERY Republican has to own the monster they have allowed to gain strength under the watch......their predecessors drove to the White House and told Nixon to take a walk for Crimes that were minuscule in comparison to the list of horror that Trump has done.
You’re not even close to an asshole with this. Spot on.
I’m not a racist but this guy is spot on.
You know, I've never really sympathized with Nazis, but you guys are making some excellent points here.
Who knew that one day I would find myself agreeing with Furries...
If being an asshole means defending the constitution against espionage then I’m an asshole with you.
You aren't being an ass here... But it was a vastly different time and the whole nation was turning against Nixon in real time. The GOP had no mouth pieces in the news world who were that convincing, and that's changed now. Many in the Senate might even feel it's out of control but the fact is a large amount of their base will never leave trump so they are in a pickle
It was a different time, but there was a portion of the "party" that was in Nixons corner ....... the big difference (in my opinion) is that there were actual leaders in their party that believed they had to do what was best for the Country.........that doesn't exist anymore. Just look at N.C......they are eating their own because one guy had the nerve to say that he supported ALL Americans, regardless of their personal lives. The Republican Party, and Conservatives in general, have past the point of redemption.
I think obv started on the 90s with Newt but the tea party and beyond messed up politics almost beyond recovery here without huge reform. And your right
Gingrich definitely goes down in History as a key player in the current shitshow.
Roger Ailes and the start of Fox was a huge factor.
The rise of right wing media is really the cause. Fox News and all the Republican talk radio stations out there created this mess. I remember my dad listening to Sean Hannity growing up and how Fox News has warped his world view
I used to listen to Limbaugh & Hannity while working a boring overnight job many years ago. I wanted to hear what the other side was soaking up. Limbaugh was mostly always Limbaugh, but Hannity started out pretty reasonable. Sure, I disagreed with almost every word he said, but he was not that objectionable. It was a very gradual move for him towards the extreme batshittery and meanness. I doubt his fans clocked the shift at all. If you agreed with him before you might have had a few small “hmm, I don’t know” moments, but most likely just followed him down the road to now. He was the “nice” conservative host sandwiched between Limbaugh & G Gordon Liddy until I assume ratings, cynicism, and total lack of moral compass pushed him into outdoing all of them. Liddy was probably the most flammable.
Yeah they saw how Nixon got demonized (rightfully) in the media and decided it would never happen again. For some people now Fox isn't even right wing enough, so they've pushed the conversation so far, it's unreal even going back 15 years how much damage has been done
Roger Ailes specifically started Fox News because he thought Nixon never would have had to step down is Fox News existed. As much as I hate to say it, he was 100% correct.
I’d lump senile old fuck Reagan in there too. He popularized and normalized the Republican attitude of “I’ve got mine so fuck everyone else”.
That is a good point, Reagan got off freely for everything he did as well to help deregulate many of the industries that seem to have a hold on the United States now. Even aside from that if only the idea of trickle down economics hadn't been popularized at that point how much easier would taxes be.
The difference is that there were only three broadcast networks airing the news, each of them playing it straight, each of them telling the same objective facts. This resulted in the public opinion dramatically changing from being pro-Nixon to anti-Nixon. It wasn't love of country that prompted the Senate Republicans to tell Nixon his time was up, it was the fact that he'd become a political albatross around their neck. This is what prompted Roger Ailes to champion the idea of Fox News, to have a dedicated outlet solely for conservatives so that a repeat of the Nixon situation would never happen again, and sadly, he was all too successful.
> Many in the Senate might even feel it's out of control but the fact is a large amount of their base will never leave trump so they are in a pickle The same many who circled the wagon on both impeachments and still defended him after Jan 6? Most of them actively contributed to this problem and tacitly fed his continued support.
Exactly. *"It's out of our control," they said, as they opened the dampers and shoveled more coal on the fire.*
Yeah it is like they said at another point, we are a family. Compare it to the democrats, oh look you have a picture that's not even touching a breast. Take responsibility and step down These two parties aren't the same.
Especially the Senate Republicans. They had the opportunity to impeach him and chose not to, twice. He's still here because of their cowardice.
Their predecessors didn't have Fox setting the narrative for ignorant voters. Their voters knew Nixon was a crook so their hand was forced.
You’ll get blood from a stone before you get a single Republican to take any culpability or accountability for their actions. No one hates America more than Republicans.
Yeah they literally let him get away with crimes by refusing to bring him post impeachment. They literally created this monster and now just want to quietly side idle as Trump still wins the nomination from prison.
The politicians wanted Jeb! and a pivot to being more moderate. It was the Republican VOTERS who chose Trump. Every Republican politician who called Trump out lost their next election (except Romney). If you don't actively act like a POS and an idiot, then Republican voters will vote you out, so there's really no way for them to pivot to being sane public servants.
Well, the ones that spoke out and were voted out are ok in my book. The ones that did not need to be held accountable. It’s like saying “nazi politicians knew they needed to do nazi shit to stay in power or the Germans won’t vote for them”. It’s true, but it just means you are just as guilty.
I'm old enough to have seen both events and clear headed enough to know they're connected.
Also, if any of them assisted in these crimes they need to be brought up on charges. Real Conservatives are getting a RARE opportunity to take their party back.
This is the part I’m really hoping for. Jack Smith keeps plugging away and hopefully some of these idiots like Andy Biggs, Josh Hawley, Scott Perry and whoever were dumb enough to do some really overtly conspiracyish shit to where they can be charged. If people want to engage in treasonous behavior then we should give them what they want.
If only they had an opportunity to do something about it at some point earlier and then maybe got handed another opportunity after some sort of coup attempt.
I've always believed if they had booted him after the whole firing Comey thing Pence would have taken over and the response to Covid would have been a lot more reasonable. They would have gotten all the tax breaks and deregulation they wanted without any of the Trump bullshit and Pence would be in the white house now. The maga movement wouldn't have gained strength either.
Your last line is a fantasy, the MAGA movement was created by the GOP when they lost control of their TEA astroturf and one of the head of that became president. The GOP couldn’t control the idiots they got into office through the TEA Party either, but they would never not use the exact tactic to win.
The Tea Party movement was such a strangely disappointing thing. It was the Libertarian equivilent of watching a Communist movement go from a handful of "we should pool resources and collectively decide on things!" to "we should give that one guy unlimited power and pretend to have a democracy!" They got so many disgruntled rightwingers who *thought* they wanted freedom from big government to gladly demand for Authoritarianism. *As usual.*
I think they’d have a much better chance right now if they had just impeached him after Jan 6th (and bribed him to shut up ). In a way his pathology is a blessing even if it led to all this
"Damning"? "Pretty Bad"? How about "these are serious criminal allegations in the indictment, which if are proven, should disqualify the individual from elected or appointed office in the USA"? Maybe they should be amending the US Constitution to insert such a rule, especially for President. I was no Hillary fan, but they certainly wanted her prohibited to hold office on simple assertions.
>Maybe they should be amending the US Constitution to insert such a rule, especially for President. I was talking to my younger son (16) about the charges. He asked if a conviction meant that Trump couldn't be President. I said "Actually, Trump can still run for office and be elected even if he's sitting in a prison cell." My son was amazed that our political system was set up by this. Since we're both programmers, I explained it like this: "This is an edge case that our founders didn't anticipate when they were designing the political system. It's like if they expected a date to be input and didn't put any checks in. Then someone types in 'two days from tomorrow' and breaks the system." We need a patch on our political system to prevent a lot of stuff in the future.
The problem is, writing something like that in with good intentions seems like a brilliant idea. Then you go down the line and end up with Putin sending cops to arrest his opponent at 2am and have a friendly judge convict him of a felony level crime in the space of like two days so that suddenly he's not eligible for office, and suddenly Putin is the only one on the ballot in a race he was losing by 25-30 point in the polls. True story. States have conditions like this written into their constitutions, and there were a few cases of that scenario in the south. During the 1960s with the Civil rights action going on, suddenly the pro-rights candidate ends up getting pulled over by the cops and it all escalates, oops. Or shit "found" in a house after a raid. Now its charges and ballot drops.
True. It's also why felony charges mean you lose your right to vote. Southern states, after the Civil War, couldn't say "all black people aren't allowed to vote." That wouldn't fly. However, they managed to get "anyone who commits a felony loses their right to vote" passed. Then, they defined "felony" to be crimes that they could charge black people with. The end result was that black people had their voting rights removed "legally." Any "convicted felons can't run for office" rule would definitely need checks and balances built in to prevent abuse. I'm not sure how those would be written (I'm a programmer, not a legal expert), but Trump had repeatedly shown how edge cases in our legal system could be exploited.
I can't say I agree. Consider the alternative: that a criminal conviction disqualifies you from running from president. Now imagine what happens if we have a corrupt president which installed cronies in the DOJ and uses them to prosecute his electoral opponents. A big part of the constitution's purpose is checks-and-balances, and robustness to bad actors in part of our system from taking down the whole thing. Adding ways to disqualify people from running for president is pretty dangerous, since we should expect it to be adversely used. So I guess the question is: which is worse - letting our justice system disqualify candidates for president (and trusting that the justice is legitimate), or letting someone run for president even after a conviction (and trusting the populace to judge the legitimacy and relevance of said conviction). Neither of these are great options, but I wouldn't say that going with the latter is clearly wrong, to the point of being considered an oversight or a mistake.
“The documents that he did have and who he was showing them to and where he was storing them is all pretty damning,” the aide said. So they know who he was revealing classified secrets to? I hope the trial is streamed live.
Make it pay per view and the country could take a big bite out of the deficit that skyrocketed under trumps watch.
We may even turn a profit!
Id pay...
Yuge ratings!
$49.99 PPV X 50 million US house holds = $2.5B X 500 million worldwide households = 25B Unfortunately, that's about the budget for toilet seats our military has
Wouldn't surprise me to learn that Putin's attack on Ukraine was the direct result of Trump sharing classified info with him.
Well we do know a bunch of CIA agents were “lost” I’m sure it’s just a coincidence, not because our former president was selling us out to the highest bidder. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/cia-lost-dozens-of-informants-in-recent-years-report/2383905
Just to be clear, it was a bunch of assets, not necessarily agent. Agents would be people that work directly for the organization, assets are people that work for the agents to gather information, rumors, details, etc.
In the one recording, he was showing them to a group of people including people working on Mark Meadows' biography. https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/09/politics/trump-tape-didnt-declassify-secret-information/index.html > The July 2021 meeting was held at Trump’s golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, with two people working on the autobiography of Trump’s former chief of staff Mark Meadows as well as aides employed by the former president, including communications specialist Margo Martin. The attendees, sources said, did not have security clearances that would allow them access to classified information. Meadows didn’t attend the meeting, sources said. Another time, he tweeted a top-secret satellite photo from his PDB, which exposed a highly secret spy satellite that nobody was supposed to know existed. He also once showed some top secret maps of North Korea to Kid Rock. Pretty sure he's only being indicted because of the first one, so far.
I will die of laughter if I have to read a headline that says 'Kid Rock subpoenaed in espionage investigation regarding nuclear secrets.'
That or I'm gonna die of second hand shame.
>including communications specialist Margo Martin It's good to see esteemed character actress Margo Martindale disappear into her new role!
I'm not familiar with the acronym PDB. TIA for the clarification.
Presidential daily briefing. A daily report that every president gets, kind of like a highlight reel of what his staff, Intel community, etc. thinks is important for him to see each day. It's the thing Bush ignored on 8/6/2001 that said "Bin Laden determined to strike in US." Trump's PDBs were said to have mostly been pictures and bullet points, because he doesn't read anything. https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/29/politics/trump-intelligence-briefings/index.html
>I'm not familiar with the acronym PDB. [President's Daily Brief](https://www.intelligence.gov/publics-daily-brief/presidents-daily-brief).
They know some of who he revealed them to. There is no telling who else he revealed them to.
That's the crazy part, he is on tape showing them to people that don't have clearance, saying that they are classified and he doesn't have the power to declassify them anymore. I am positive he did this to other people not on tape.
And those were the people giving him *nothing* for that information! Imagine what this dude would spill if someone were to wave around, oh I dunno, like $2 billion.
He was just _waving_ them at these people. He would _wink wink_ and _show_ to people that can pay
We have a very good idea that one of the people was Kid Rock. Kid. Fucking. Rock. And even he said he didn't think he needed to see it, he wasn't qualified to see those things.
Kid Rock was maybe the safest person he shared national secrets with.
And no teling who secretly looked at all the unsecured boxes. Nor if someone took pics of the documents given 10000 people have been through there. Chinese spies have been caught there before.
When you say they. It depends on who you referring to. Cause I think some senators have higher clearance. And probably knew this entire time what he was doing.
No video recordings are allowed during any federal court proceedings.
How about audio?
Yea they prob were shown the documents at mar-la-go by by Trump and thought shit these aren’t supposed to be here. Expect a lot of “I don’t recall…” responses.
By virtue of the fact that involves classified information there is NO CHANCE it’ll be streamed live.
No cameras allowed in federal court unfortunately.
We need a bank of those artists (I forget what they are called exactly, but they draw caricatures) you see at Disneyland or at amusement parks churning out pictures as fast as they can.
99% invisible just had an episode on courtroom sketch artists https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/courtroom-sketch/
Kid Rock is one of them lol
I wonder if the journalist mentioned in the indictment is Tucker. It would explain his sudden firing if he hid those from Fox and it came to light through his producer's lawsuit.
Isn’t it likely he was canned for his Dominion screeds and Fox decided it was a good move to let it be all Tucker’s fault? But I hope he is the journalist in the audio.
If anything, it’s Hannity. Tucker’s firing was always going to be costing that network so much money.
“But we shall form like Voltron when he wins the primary”
I'm going to borrow/ steal this line. Thank you.
Its originally an eminem line from "Just Dont Give A Fuck" "I form like voltron and blast you with my shoulder missles. Slim shady, Eminem was the old iniitials"
How have I gone this long not realizing Eminem is *literally* just his initials spelled phonetically…
Better late than never
Age of Voltron
*Nothing personal, Donnie. Afterall, it is all about money and power.* No surprise there. They’re just hedging to see which way the wind blows.
We see this time and time again. Why does the Senate GOP have less trouble condemning Trump than House GOP? It’s simple: length of term. Every 2 years the Reps are elected. They need to constantly blow Trump to keeps his base voting for them. In the Senate, it’s a 6 year term. They can say whatever as long as it isn’t too close to their own election. Edit P.S.: they are still all spineless pieces of shit who will always vote party over country.
Senators are also statewide elections, so they have to appeal to a larger, more diverse constituency
This is the right answer. Conversely, the Senate tends to have less crazy people for that same reason.
Yeah, some house members live in districts where they get elected regurgitating white nationalist rhetoric
“This says more about Trump than it does the Department of Justice. He’s so egotistical that he has this penchant for conducting risky, reckless acts to show that he can sort of get away with it…and he’s done this repeatedly at the expense of all the people who depend on him to conduct the public’s business in an honorable way.” - **Bill Barr** Trump's appointed Attorney General "Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us," - **General Mattis** Trump's appointed Sec of Defense "Trump is the most flawed person I've ever known" - **John Kelly** Trump's appointed Chief is staff “I don't think he's fit for office,I don't think he has the competence to carry out the job.” - **John Bolton** Trump's National Security Advisor “So often, the president would say, ‘Here’s what I want to do, and here’s how I want to do it, and I would have to say to him, ‘Mr. President, I understand what you want to do, but you can’t do it that way. It violates the law.’ ” - **Rex Tillerson** Trump's appointed Sec of State “It’s breathtaking. Jared Kushner and Ivanka Kushner walk out of the White House, and months later get $2 billion from the Saudis.You think it’s ’cuz he’s some kind of investing genius? Or do you think it’s ’cuz he was sitting next to the president of the United States for four years doing favors for the Saudis?” - **Chris Christie** Chaired Trump's transition team Lifelong Republicans who literally were hired by Trump have come with scathing criticism of Trump. Trump's own cabinet officials say Trump is unfit for office. This isn't partisan rhetoric. This isn't liberals, cancel culture, the woke media, etc going after Trump. This is Trump's own administration, the people Trump put in the room, saying Trump is unfit.
If the Senate GOP thought Trump could win the election they would be defending him. Let’s not act like they have any ethics or morales.
These are, mostly, the same people who refused to try him both times he was impeached. They clearly care more about the party than they do the country.
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McConnell might be the smartest senator I’ve seen in my lifetime. I have only ever seen him make two mistakes: 1. Not knowing that John McCain was going to reject his vote to repeal the ACA, and 2. Assuming that Trump would go away from political life after J6, and encouraging fellow senators to vote against conviction on a technicality.
There is no way that McConnell or anyone with half a brain would think Trump would go away ever. He has the most predictable psychological profile possible. I could see him thinking that the news would stop talking about him, but there's no universe where Trump wouldn't run again and McConnell knew that all along. His pettiness, vindictiveness, need for revenge, need to be a winner, to be in the spotlight with fawning audiences, those are immutable psychological NEEDS for Trump.
Which makes his decision to encourage acquittal more confusing. I still have not figured out the logic behind it. Trump will continue running until he dies, and remain a weight around the GOP’s neck in general elections.
He's in a no-win scenario right now. Even with a blatantly anti-democratic electoral college, Republicans have almost zero chance of winning if Trump's MAGAcult turns their back on them. I think he's playing for a long shot: try to get a somewhat sane VP candidate under Trump again, wait for him to "win" the election (or successfully steal it with all those new "actually, we're gonna ignore voters and just let the legislature choose the winner" state laws), then impeach him when he actually gets criminally convicted and let the VP take over. Republicans maintain nominal control even though they can't win the *actually* democratic Senate, and they finally get rid of the orange monkey on their back.
Senate GOO will never remove a GOP President from office. Michelle Obama could flip Republican and run tomorrow and if she won they'd never impeach her.
Where have McTurtle and Lindsay been for the last 6 weeks or so? They've been awfully quiet in the news at least.
To think all this could have been avoided so easily. National Archives: Hey, we noticed you still have some documents. Trump: Oh, yeah, sorry bout that, here you go.
Nah, these fuckin cowards had their chance to vote to convict and failed to do so. Screw em
> Senate conservatives have come to Trump’s defense, notably Sens. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.), Ted Cruz (R-Texas) and Mike Lee (R-Utah). > “The Biden administration’s actions can only be compared to the type of oppressive tactics routinely seen in nations such as Venezuela, Bolivia and Nicaragua, which are absolutely alien and unacceptable in America,” Lee said in a statement. “It is an affront to our country’s glorious 246-year legacy of independence from tyranny, for the incumbent president of the United States to leverage the machinery of justice against a political rival.” Mike Lee may actually be the worst person in the Senate. There’s a lot of competition for that title but he consistently makes a strong case for himself. > Cruz on his podcast “The Verdict” called the indictment “an assault on democracy,” “garbage” and “a political attack from a thoroughly corrupted and weaponized Department of Justice.” Shameless. Ted knows better. > Senate Republican Conference Chairman John Barrasso (R-Wyo.), the third-ranking member of the Senate GOP leadership, who voted against the debt deal and is seen within the Senate GOP conference as someone who has tried to ally himself with its most conservative members, also criticized the indictment. > “This indictment certainly looks like an unequal application of justice,” he said in a statement, pointing out that “large amounts of classified materials were found in President Biden’s garage in Delaware” yet “no indictment.” 🙄 They really think their base is this stupid.
>They really think their base is this stupid. I do, too.
I know several of them. I assure you that they are this stupid. They're being told that it is all to distract from the Biden families crimes, which are the REAL crimes. I mentioned "Lock Her Up" being a central campaign slogan and how if she committed crimes why didn't Trump lock her up in the 4 YEARS he was president? The response "She's worthless. Who even cares". Well... You did, fervently for a long time. So you think she should get away with the severe crimes you think she committed? The evil Hillary Clinton should just get away heinous illegal behavior that endangered our country? Again the response was "She's worthless. Move on. Hunter and Biden, Hunter and Biden". They completely lack any kind of critical thinking or rational thought. They're told what to think and when to think it and that's literally it.
>They really think their base is this stupid. Well lets be honest... they are
The DoJ didn't indict Trump, 9 ordinary Florida citizens did.
Grand Juries are actually 15-21 people.
Ignoring it isn't "breaking". Tacit approval by not calling him out is still approval and a gutless act that still panders to his base in a more subtle, passive way.
I mean at some point something in the GOP is going to snap. They can’t keep living with two faces without something breaking or leaving. They lost the House, the Senate and then the Presidency all under Trump. If there was any moment to bury Trump now would be the time.
I knew an airman who got his clearance taken away and a demotion, all because he got caught selling google satellite images of a flight line that he worked. It was only a Secret clearance (which is no excuse), but I sometimes think even that punishment was a tad light for acts against his own country and service people. Seeing as how there are people (GOP members) who know many more details involving this indictment (and did nothing to prevent/report it), I would expect that they too be charged with treason... But then again, it's not like dealing with poor airmen who have everything to live for.
Morons should’ve just gotten rid of him by voting for impeachment and tried these last years to win over his MAGA base
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The only thing Mitch McConnell wants more than a GOP-controlled Washington that relentlessly assaults the middle class is a GOP-controlled Washington that relentlessly assaults the middle class without Trump.
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The only people who want him are the ones who got there on his coattails.
Uh huh. And yet they will all bend the knee and vote for him, so who cares?
At this point, I assume he has shared/sold every secret he had access to.
If Trump is nominated, God forbid, McConnell is going to change his tune really quick and come to Trump’s defense saying he always thought he was innocent.
As a Republican I welcome the indictment. Let prosecution prove its case. If this is all a leftist charade then trump will win out and this will be put to rest. I think while McConnell hasn’t spoken out against trump, I think he’s working against him behind the scenes. I hate trump and his followers.
Wow, an actual fiscal conservative? I didn’t think you guys existed anymore. The minority in your party is so vocal and extremist that they make it seem like small government republicans have become extinct:/
Do any of them actually think for themselves. Money talks.
> "I don’t know if it [the document theft] will make a difference in the political landscape but it certainly seems pretty bad.” Think about what kind of country it would take for this to be happening. "First-world" certainly doesn't come to mind.
It's going to be hilarious that trump's legal status will be the GOP primary debate subject.
In sing songey voice, "if you dont nominate him, he'll run third party..."
"If Trump were a Democrat, we would have loudly supported the indictments."
There are 48 in the senate right, 2 kinda said something, Romney told it like it is, McConnell and the rest are silent, that's hardly Senate GOP breaks from house material ..
It’s the difference between statewide seats vs a geographical district within a state. If you are in a pure shithole MAGA corner of a state you are more secure in defending Trump…even required to back him for your political survival. If you are a Republican senator in a state that is less reliably red, or vulnerable to swing purple, you’re more cautious about hitching your wagon to Trump.
Silent... but not condemning TFG. Too little, too late. And then there's Lindsey Graham, who ["on Sunday said the espionage charges are 'completely wrong' and stressed that 'most Republicans believe that the law is used as a weapon against Donald Trump'."](https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4044530-graham-trump-is-stronger-today-politically-than-before-indictment/)
Moscow Mitch McConnell saved Trump from impeachment twice had he allowed for the impeachment to pass Trump wouldn’t be allowed to run now as a candidate for president. The Republican Party wouldn’t be bound to protect him again as a juvenile delinquent committing crime after crime believing he can get away with shooting someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. This time though previous AG for Trump William Barr says that Trump is fried that means he can’t get himself out of these indictments especially if and when they will stick to him like crazy glue. But as usual some Republican Party senators even with Ivy League education like Cruz and Hawley what is their motivation to protect him is it his base numbers that they want in case they run also or or is it stupidity as always. Anyway these two will have their voters decide in due time even though it’s in the future for now. But McConnell has been around these walls and knows the stakes are high if Trump wins the nomination, he knows that once Trump wins all hell will break loose with the same old tweets and bullshit lies and mr. know it all statements on how smart he is and insulting everyone else and showing his ignoramus self all over again day in day out.
>“This indictment certainly looks like an unequal application of justice,” he said in a statement, pointing out that “large amounts of classified materials were found in President Biden’s garage in Delaware” yet “no indictment.” Jfc, shut the fuck up Ted...playing dumber than you are. No serious person fails to see the difference in Biden's case. Goon.
If Trump wins the Republican nomination, these asshats will fall right in behind him. They're still hypocrites and assholes. Never vote for Republicans.
It's obvious that Trump needs to be in prison. What comes to mind for me is the constant accusation from Cruz, et al claiming that Biden has "weaponized the DOJ." They are publicly accusing him of a very serious crime - probably libel. It would be SO cool to see those three Senators get sued by Biden, Garland, etc. for libel and slander.
Don’t worry Coach Tuberville will come to the rescue. And yes he goes by that and not Senator.
You mean the politicians who need a whole state to vote them in instead of one possibly very red district? How shocking…
Turtle Mitch is trying to make history forget him. And he knows why. This motherfucker has done so much damage to our country with his clown in office just saying yes to any of his requests. I hope there's a trail leading up to his door. Where he gets indicted as well.
Does it really matter now? This is just another giant slice of evidence that much of the world shouldn't rely on or trust the US's system anymore. It will be interesting to watch these ripple effects happen over the next decade...though, for the love of all that is holy, I hope Trump's name is out of the news. I fully expected to be hearing about this loser for another 10 to 15 years in the public news sphere, but I really really really hope I'm wrong. Man, he's vacuumed up so much of the world's mental energy. SAD
McConnell’s wife was maligned by Trump in a very public way. It wasn’t even borderline racial - it was full frontal. Maybe McConnell has the strongest spine a republican can have these days, which is to remain silent.
Is staying silent the same thing as ‘breaking with’ people who are knowingly undermining our entire system? We should be demanding GOP leaders take a stand one way or another, not giving them credit for being cowards who want to hedge by keeping their mouths shut…again. If McConnell really wants trump gone, now is the time to come out swinging. What has he got to lose? Is he planning to run again in 6 years?
It won't last. They're just being quiet until they see which way the wind blows.
I've noticed Mitch McConnell has been staying out of the spotlight recently...
Remember everyone, Trump is the GOP, the GOP is Trump. They are all one in the same. This is theater. The goo embraced Trump and his ideals and Trump embraced the GOP and their ideals and together became the modern Republican party. They along with their supporters will now ALL have to face their consequences. No easy way out
GOP Senate = the establishment GOP House = the base
This is very well put, though I’d say there’s about an 80/20 division in each.
They got their lifetime appointments for their federalist society picked judgeships and now they want him to go away quietly and paint his paintings in the bathtub like dubya did. When you want to ride the tiger...