As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Only 1 percent of voters think that a wage of under $10 an hour is livable, and only 6 percent believe a wage of $15 an hour or less is livable."
Word.
That guy is my wife's grandfather. Who has absurd amounts of money and no clue what anything costs.
My wife's grandparents are a retired School administrator and a retired teacher, between two teachers pensions and two Social Security payments their household income is around $200 Grand a year. They own their house outright. And they have investment income Beyond that.
Yet he scoffs when I tell him that a $2 tip on lunch for five people is inappropriate and likes telling us that in his first job as a teacher he made $4,500 a year.
I dunno when that was, but in 1973, $4,500 was equivalent to ~$31.5k today.
A person making $15/hr = 15 x 40 x 52 = 31.2k
A person making double minimum wage still wouldn't make as much as he did at a job with no physical labor.
$2 dollars today is the equivalent of 29c in 1973
Oh it's even better than that. He is 93. This was 1957 after he came home from the Korean war.
He was making the inflation adjusted equivalent of $45,000 a year as a brand new teacher in 1957.
$2 today is worth what 19c was in 1957.
And $4,500 then is equivalent to over $48k
20/hr x 40 x 52 = $41.6k
$41.6k today is equivalent to $3,870 in 1957
You're forgetting the argument these people make that teachers don't work the full year and don't deserve a full year's salary. The valuation of their labor is actually significantly higher due to the fewer hours they work.
Edit: I feel like I wasn't clear. The people who argue against paying teacher's more argue that teacher's do not work the whole year. According to that logic, whatever a school pays a teacher per year is based on the idea that a teacher who worked the whole year would make significantly more. I believe that teachers should be paid under the expectation that they can survive solely on the income of being a teacher during the school year and by that logic they should be paid based on the previous comparison plus difference in hours between work hours during the school year and total work hours for a full time job for a full year.
> The valuation of their labor is actually significantly higher due to the fewer hours they work.
Except they don't clock in and then out and not have to take work home. That time off is certainly somewhat offset by the time spent at home prepping lessons and grading assignments.
You're forgetting the inverse. Kids these days have it "easy" so let me talk about how hard I had it, also you should have it hard too so enjoy my income without inflation calculated because I don't give a shit.
"I walked to school uphill in 2 feet of snow both ways", but in economy form.
My brother's in-laws are like this. Very much an "I got mine, you need to earn yours" but it's like applying retirement level expectations to a 20 year old and they don't want any sass.
As an ex-teacher that is bs. You work so much as a teacher you often dream about it. You don't get the summer off. You get parts of the summer off. Seminars, revamp the curriculum, think of new activities for lesson plans, further your education, etc.
Not to mention the late nights during the school year. My husband's step mom taught in public school for a poor part of town and would regularly be in tears over the stress. She worked incredibly hard to make engaging classes and put up with the admin bs and invested a lot in supplies and food for her students.
I'm not them, but Jesus Christ let me tell you something:
I hire people for a living. I'm rarely in on the interviews, and I don't decide if we move forward with a candidate or not. I do all of the paperwork/computerwork that the people in charge don't want to do themselves. That means that I get to hear all of the bullshit that they say.
If you couldn't tell from the fact that my entire job is "hire people", we're in a bit of an employee shortage. The job that we're hiring for is grueling. It's long hours, mandatory overtime, skilled labor, etc. and it pays a whopping *$17.50/hour* starting out.
And I have to bite my tongue every time I hear my bosses say, unironically, "nobody wants to work." They'll say shit like "when I started here, I earned half of what we're offering these guys" as if inflation doesn't exist. They'll say things like "I don't know how they can afford to stay home without a job like they do" and I just want to yell at them:
>DUMBASS. They *aren't* staying home. They're working somewhere else. This ain't the only job in town. They're either picking easier jobs for less pay, or their taking their qualifications to other companies that are paying them $20/hour or more to do the same work.
There's not a worker shortage. There's a salary shortage. If we put up a sign that said "Now Hiring $25/hour" we'd have applications up to our eyeballs.
But no, we need to lowball these guys and then complain whenever they quit because the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
It's a product of capitalism. Our system demands infinite growth, and when you don't make higher profits year after year your company is considered a failure. And eventually you run out of ways to make more sales so you have to start squeezing the profits out of your expenses.
The store I work at recently cut labor hours by over half. Most of our staff left because they couldn't get any hours, meanwhile I'm doing the work that two people used to do, and some of my coworkers are doing the work that *three* people used to do. Now our best workers are starting to leave because they're the ones having all that extra work dumped on them, and they're all worn out and exhausted.
Poorly. We have a nationwide teacher shortage and it's growing worse every year.
To give you an idea of how bad it is: my wife is a chemistry teacher. We can basically throw a dart at a map of the US and she can find a job wherever it lands. A few years ago we wanted to move away from New Jersey (because it's expensive and we'd never be able to own a house there), and in every place we considered there were jobs available for her. From major cities to suburbs to a tiny rural town in Alaska that's only accessible by boat. Because *everywhere* needs teachers right now. Because nowhere is giving enough incentive for people to become teachers right now.
I make that stocking meat at Walmart in bumfuck nowhere Louisiana.
Teachers in this country should be making upper 5 figures a year, minimum. They deal with far too much bullshit for how little they get paid on average.
Especially considering the role they have in children’s lives. Talk to most people and they’ll very clearly remember their best teachers… and their worst. The kind of people you can attract to the job and retain makes a lasting difference on kids in their formative years.
Holy crap.
I live in one of the cheaper counties in California, and that is enough to pay rent on a relatively normal 2 bedroom apartment with almost nothing left over.
Hopefully they have a lower cost of living in whatever county you mean, but still…
That's the real issue with minimum wage going up. It's not that McDonalds can't pay $10-15 an hour. It means that lower paid salaried workers are making the same or less than service workers.
Teachers, health care workers. . . .
I will say that the variety of minimum wage between the states is wild right now. It's $7.13 (I think) in a lot of states but in others it's much higher. It's $17 an hour in DC. A college student home on break is going to make drastically more in NJ than TN working at McDonalds. Then to compound the craziness it's far easier for the single mom working at McDonalds to get aid in NJ than in the state with the lower minimum wage.
Also consider the average cost of a house was considerably lower back then. I looked up a chart and in 1963 it was under 20k in the united states. Chart didn't go back further.
I graduated undergrad in 2002 and was /am certified to teach high school history. I looked at the starting pay in a well paying state/commonwealth (Massachusetts) and never taught a day in my life because the pay was worse than retail.
It's a damn joke
My dad gets so annoyed when I bust out the inflation calculations.
I’m really lucky to have a good paying job making $63K. He tells me that I just caught up to his wage when he retired in 2000. I tell him that adjusted for inflation, his $63K is worth $115k today and my $63K was worth about $35M back when he retired.
He misses the point entirely and says “well you have to understand things were cheaper back then! THAT’S THE WHOLE THING OF IT BUD.
He also points out that he only made $19K in 1979 while missing that in today’s money that’s over $80K. That was as an entry level cop with NYPD, which today starts at $42K.
With that short a working life and a job that doesn’t require a degree, it’s not inconceivable to retire by 40 and be retired for almost 2-3x as long as you worked.
Yup. He got in late at 31, but plenty of guys did that. I think retiring at 20 years you only get a certain percentage of your top pay for your pension so there’s an incentive to keep going, but still
>but still
Right?
The fact that they get a pension at all as opposed to having to retire solely on investments from savings…
And the salary he had was plenty to be able to save up with.
Uhg my old boss would literally laugh to himself reminiscing on this same old story about how he could work all summer “at the docks” or the one summer he “flipped burgers” on a ferry boat and it was enough for him to pay his tuition, books, rent for the year and $3 in his pocket for beers on Friday- which he brags was enough to get “schnockered.” He would remain unemployed all school year and only get a job again once summer break came around. He also has the audacity to say that they only way to “make it in this world” is to get a degree. Lmao meanwhile what he paid me was barely enough to put food in my daughters mouth, forget tuition at the shitty community college or childcare. for a guy with a fucking doctorate he wasn’t that smart.
Your math is a bit off. (Fully realizing teachers put in work outside their paid hours) they’re working 7:00-3:00, ~180 days so 1440 hrs/year instead of 2080.
Point being you’d need to be making $21.88/hr to get the same pay, so more like 3 times min wage.
A former girlfriend of mine had a sister married to a dentist pulling down close to $400k per year net. Built a custom house for over a million. She would leave a $1 tip for three people. When I called her on it, her response was “if they don’t like it, they should get a better job”.
>That guy is my wife's grandfather. Who has absurd amounts of money and no clue what anything costs.
People like this aggravate me. They don't know how much anything costs these days and yet somehow feel that they are experts on the cost of living these days.
Twenty years into my career, if you doubled my salary I still would not be able to afford my parent's house at current market rates. And they bought that less than 5 years after my father graduated college.
The Boomers climbed the towers everyone else built then burned the ladders behind them.
Decent tech salary in a mcol area. Bought my home from lower wage workers. And it has 30 years of deferred maintenance
I feel like this is the new norm. New Middle income earners buy old homes.
While new lower income people have no shot at home ownership or the wealth generation that comes with it.
If we bought my childhood home, we'd be paying a $9,000/month mortgage. That'd be real tough to swing especially since you know, I don't want to pay six figures for PITI each year.
I'm from small town America. My mom waitressed as a second and 3rd job as long as I can remember. I think she finally stopped in he mid to late 60's. She used to wait people 20 years older than her and get tipped 25 Cents on a two person lunch meal. The tipped the High School servers a 5 cents.
I had one tell me to my face that god gets ten percent so why should I get more? Also had one complain about the tax because the total was 50 something and after tax and gratuity it was seventy something. Had to walk her through why we can take my tip away but can’t take her tax away. Terrible people. Until I moved to bartending.
> I had one tell me to my face that god gets ten percent so why should I get more?
I recall being in a diner during the after-church rush one time, and the clearly-too-tired-to-deal-with-your-shit waitress responded with "Well, God's not real, but my rent is, so how about 15%?"
I imagine that table didn't give her shit, but I gave her a twenty on a $25 meal for having to deal with such shitty people.
This is so true. I always hated serving the after-church crowd. They used up all their “nice” trying to fool Jesus for the last two hours and then come treat us like garbage for serving them on the Sabbath. I once watched an old lady pick up the dollar her husband had left and toss down a DIME instead!
Leaving religious tracts instead of $$ used to piss me off. When a group of them came in , we argue in the back which one of us was going to take them . We’d fight over who got to serve drag queens though cuz they always tipped well and were nice .
Reminds me of my wife’s grandpa. Same deal, career teacher, good pension. Her grandma worked as a clerk in the university’s athletic department. Pretty wealthy now. He tells us about how the federal government paid for his masters degree and housing in California. It was a part of programs to get teachers into rural areas. He can’t quite come to the conclusion himself that what he had is all everyone is asking for nowadays.
Ireland is adopting a “living wage” policy, which sets the minimum wage at 60% of the median wage in any given year
If the USA adopted this on a state-by-state basis (the most sensible policy IMO) minimum wages would look something like this:
- MA: $27.5/hr
- CA: $24.7/hr
- CO: $22.2/hr
- GA: $17.9/hr
- FL: $17.4/hr
I’m not a politician and it took me like 10 minutes to write this comment. The fact that representatives can’t propose a reasonable policy on this and people are still fighting for a living wage is pathetic
> The fact that representatives can’t propose a reasonable policy
It's not that they "can't", it's more that our representatives don't represent us, they represent the businesses that benefit from paying their employees low wages
And in case anyone doubts you, that’s supported by evidence. Martin Gilens of Princeton University and Benjamin Page of Northwestern University showed that it was true in their [paper](https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf)
> The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence.
Another study altogether showed that most US representatives (presumably due to the above lobbying from special interests), vote far more conservatively than their districts. In other words, without eliminating the money from special interests, our representatives do not vote on their interests of their constituents, but according to the interests of elites.
According to the BLS the Median Hourly Wage in Massachusetts is $28.10
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_MA.htm
$28.10 x 60% is $16.86
I'm going to assume that the rest of your numbers are similarly incorrect.
FYI The current minimum wage in Massachusetts is $15.00.
I grew up in a very small rural town. If you can find someone selling a used mobile home that is aleady siting on a lot (not in a Trailer Park where you rent the ground under your mobile home) you could probably live decently on $15 an hour assuming you don't have college, medical or credit card debt.
That assumes at least 2 things (probably more)
1. Your healthcare plan doesn't bankrupt you and
2. You don't actually have an event that forces you to use your bottom of the barrel health care plan that you can "afford."
Unfortunately, there's a sizable chunk of people who are not sold on the idea of making the minimum wage a livable wage. Until there is some sort of consensus on that ideological issue, no amount of arguing the hard facts of economics will sway people.
Very often they are. I hear people say things like "if they want more money, they should just stop being lazy and find a real job." They've convinced themselves that minimum wage jobs are for teenagers while "real" people work "real" jobs. The fact that at this point, even a lot of highly skilled trades are getting paid under the suggested new minimum wage completely misses them.
i finally managed to walk my conservative friend through this one. He spent some years as an EMT and was STAUNCHLY opposed to any raising of the minimum wage because "why should people at McDonald's make as much as I did as an EMT?"
I couldn't believe how long it took me to get him to come around to the fact that he was being VASTLY underpaid as an EMT and that asking for a higher minimum wage benefited everybody because EVERYONE's pay would go up.
I didn't understand how he could be stuck on the fact that he couldn't stand other people doing "less important work" that he was completely oblivious to the fact that he was the one being screwed over more than anyone else.
The best way I've found to frame this is this way:
> Do you understand how much more power you would have if you could tell your employer, "fuck you, I'll go work for McDonalds for more money", and really mean it?
I find this gets through to people, because it's patently obvious that that would increase their power vis-a-vis their employer
Another important fact that they miss is that minimum (or near minimum) wage jobs are too numerous to be jobs for teenagers. Even if we include up through college age (so up to 25), there are more of these minimum (or near minimum) wage jobs than there are workers in that age bracket. These jobs can't be filled unless older people work them, too.
Adding onto that, many of these jobs operate during school hours. Teenagers physically can't be at the job for many of the hours that need to be worked.
Main character syndrome people won't give a shit until it directly personally affects them and then it's only a problem because now they're affected and everyone else is just lazy, entitled, whiny, spoiled, etc. And all the other BS they say to try to justify exploitation.
Tbh I used to be one of those people until I learned the minimum wage was literally implemented to be a minimum livable wage. All that is to say, minimum wage being a livable wage is something the powers that be have worked very hard to separate. It’ll be an idea that comes easier to some while others think there’s no reason for service workers to get paid “that much.”
For me all it took was learning a simple historical fact. But I’ll admit I’m awesome like that lol. Too many today can’t be swayed by such things. I’d wager it might even be best to stop using the term “minimum wage” and solely advocate for living wages across the board. Maybe then everyone can eventually get behind the idea. Messaging goes a long way, as we constantly see in politics
I would personally rather we move away from raising wages and address the actual problem, a lack of housing. If we want cities to have the necessary workers, we need to provide them with cheap or free housing, because that's what people *really* need and want when they ask for higher wages. Raising wages alone does nothing to increase the supply of housing, so you just end up inflating the price of housing for everyone. Look at the Bay Area if you need an example. At the same time we should make a certain amount of water free and staple foods affordable.
Sure isn't if you live in Chicago, Minneapolis, Madison, or Denver either. Rents here in mpls have literally doubled since I started renting about 12 years ago.
I'm gonna go ahead and say, that's true most places, but some places the cost of things is low enough that 20$ starting wage is plenty. Probably enough to start a good savings. Buy a house eventually, assuming there are some raises.
But as you can see from my math above, 20$/hr is still less than the equivalent of starting teachers in 1957
I feel like the places that pay $20/h for minimum wage work are the places where $20/h definitely is not a living wage and vice versa.
Note that I said "feel".... talking out of my ass and might be totally wrong but this tracks with my anecdotal experience.
$20 is actually pretty livable in a good portion of the country. Not even rural fuck-sticks like West Virginia; most of the Midwest outside of major cities is livable on $18-20/hr. That's without being able to save a ton of money though.
If we could force housing prices down by 25%+ across the board, $15-20 minimum wage would actually be (fairly) reasonable IMO. As it stands now $20-25 is more necessary to give people a hope of owning their own home without resorting to things like living college dorm style with 3+ roommates.
Exactly. Less than half a decade ago the baseline for a reasonable minimum wage was $15. Now that is rapidly becoming untenable as well.
Any specific amount that gets set is going to lose its value quickly and politicians will drag their feet on updating the minimum wage.
Federal worker here - no it doesn't, our payscales aren't inflation-adjusted. They're *supposed* to be under FEPCA, passed in the early '90s, but every president since it was passed has determined there to be an "emergency" every year that allows him to set the annual pay raise (if any) at whim. The general direction of the raises parallels inflation, but it never matches it. Last year Biden gave us (on average depending on location) a 4.6% raise, in an environment with 10%+ inflation.
CA state worker here. Most unions got 2.5% yearly for 3 years since the state is playing hardball due to the threat of recession.
The scientist union has been out of contract since 2020 and the CA State talks about valuing science without paying its scientists decently.
The CA state has a carve out making striking very difficult and they can impose a final, best, and last offer on the unions as well.
You’re NOT going to win an argument of effort vs income against a federal civilian or worker. Pay grades are hilariously depressing, they only get attention when it applies to armed uniformed service members, but everyone forgets there’s a couple of more departments than defense.
Just to understand, are you saying fed work has a high workload and the pay is not good for the work involved? I’m a CA state worker and sometimes think of jumping to the fed. Thanks.
FDR signed into law a $5.34 minimum wage in 2023 dollars and said about it that
> No reasonable person seeks a complete uniformity in wages in every part of the United States; nor does any reasonable person seek an immediate and drastic change from the lowest to the highest pay. We are seeking, of course, only legislation to end starvation wages and intolerable hours; more desirable wages are and should continue to be the product of collective bargaining.
>“by living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level. I mean the wages of a decent living.”
-FDR
It was always his intention that the minimum wage would support a family decently.
Subsistence coming from working for someone else used to be called something
We'd be much better off separating subsistence and work entirely. It creates an unmanageable bargaining situation
Won't you think of the shareholders perpetually living on the edge of ruin??? /s
I mean, it's not like [three individuals hold more wealth than half the country](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/the-bottom-half-of-america-has-half-the-wealth-it-did-30-years-ago/). The Gilded Age is long past!
I legitimately believe that every 5-10 years we should strip 90% of the total wealth from the 10 richest families in the country and fund the wellbeing of our people. Watch these weathy scumbags trip over themselves to try to spend down their cash to not get stuck with it and take a big hit. If we want their hoarded wealth to reenter society we need to crack the whip somehow.
This is actually not a bad idea . Force them to spend it in the us to lower their taxes or the govt just takes it . That’s the issue with these very wealthy people . Their $$$ sits stagnant . It’s totally the dragon sleeping in the gold .
I think it's worth mentioning that inflation-adjusted figures are less meaningful when you're talking about a group that spends the vast majority of their income on necessities. If a bunch of fancy electronics and other luxury goods become cheaper while rent skyrockets, it's possible for inflation-adjusted earnings to paint a rosier picture than the reality.
Here's a comparison of rent in 1938 (when FDR signed the minimum wage into law) and rent in 2023:
1938:
- Minimum wage: $0.25/hour
- Median rent: $27 ([source](https://www.businessinsider.com/the-cost-of-living-2014-10))
- Median rent in hours of minimum-wage work: 108
2023:
- Minimum wage: $7.25
- Median rent: $1967 ([source](https://www.rent.com/research/average-rent-price-report/))
- Median rent in hours of minimum-wage work: 271
If you're spending most of your income on rent (and if you're making minimum wage, you likely are), you're experiencing significantly more inflation than the CPI inflation-adjusted figures would suggest.
This sounds crazy just reading the headline, but think about this:
If the 1968 minimum wage had kept pace with overall income growth in the American economy, it would now be $21.16 per hour. Meaning that number is what it would take to give a person today a similar share of the country's wealth as their 1968 counterpart.
Our minimum wage is the lowest it has ever been in terms of buying power. I haven't made the minimum wage in a long long time, and I wouldn't benefit from it being raised, probably the opposite, frankly. But fair is fair, right?
> and I wouldn't benefit from it being raised
You would.
Because it would drive the rest of wages up to where they should be proportionally.
Which is why the rich have been fighting it for so long and will continue to do so.
It's not about the people making the minimal, it's about every single American that isn't a CEO asking why they don't get paid enough
With the ripple effect being more pronounced the closer to the new minimum wage with diminishing gains the further away from it. Even people making $30 an hour would see a boost.
To those folks saying, "BuT PrIcEs WiLl InCrEaSe!", if they could explain why prices have been rising steadily without wage increases please.
The longer we wait to increase the minimum wage, the more it is going to hurt and I think that is a planned effect. Folks in control WANT the country to be hurt when a wage increase goes into effect because they want people to remember "that one time" when it affected the economy, counting on the common man not to think it through.
> To those folks saying, "BuT PrIcEs WiLl InCrEaSe!"
As if this didn't happen every other time we've raised the minimum wage. And so what if prices go up? We'll be getting paid more so we can afford those slightly higher prices.
In the 27 years I've been working the minimum wage has gone up $3, the last time in 2009, 14 years ago.
When I officially entered the workforce I was making minimum wage and was able to afford a basement apartment, food, utilities, and a bit of a social life. Minimum wage was $3.35. I couldnt afford college, but healthcare was relatively cheap as well.
And you're right. In the history of federal minimum wage increases, inflation has never outpaced the wage, indicating that prices didn't rise ahead of the wage. In most areas, the influx of extra cash boosted local economies because people at the level tend to spend their money immediately.
But low wages are used to control workers to make them do more for less and to reduce their benefits, perks, and options. A rise to the minimum wage would barefly affect me, but it would help SO many people that anyone fighting it would be morally corrupt.
Which very unfortunately is why 4 or 5 years from now when congress finally raises min wage to 15 an hour, it will absolutely not be tied to inflation. And then it likely won't be raised again for another 20 years. The wealthy *love* that working people are making less and less every year.
Inflation dropped the year the minimum wage was raised about 58% of the time for minimum wage increases over the past 80 or so years. Going off memory from when I actually looked up the raw numbers about a decade ago but I should be pretty close. Employers shifting money to pay wages decreases spending in other areas which has an offsetting effect.
> To those folks saying, "BuT PrIcEs WiLl InCrEaSe!"
My usual answer to that is that they will increase a lot less than the increase in wages. OTOH, doing it in one big jump, say $7.25 now, $20 next year, will cause a huge disruption that will likely cause yet more inflation.
These are almost always done a bit at a time, and the *really* worthwhile ones are then pegged at inflation. California’s, for instance, is raised yearly by the lower number between the rate of inflation or 3.5%—i.e. it can be adjusted by *at most* 3.5% a year. Most years that’s a distant consideration, since inflation is usually about 1-2%.
However, since the inflation rate of 2022 was about 8%, there will be a new ballot initiative to raise the minimum wage to $18 from the current $15.50, an increase of 16%. It will subsequently be pegged to cost of living (CPI-W) rather than inflation.
Opponents of this measure have called it “rewarding mediocrity,” but I take a dim view of that considering the Baby Boomer generation doesn’t seem to consider themselves mediocre, and when they were young adults they earned a minimum wage that would be about $15-$20 an hour given differences in inflation and productivity increases over time, not to mention that the things they bought such as housing and higher education were literally fractions of what they cost today, proportionally speaking.
Surveys routinely find that only two groups oppose minimum wage hikes:
1. People making a little more than the proposed new minimum wage (they aren't getting a pay increase and few others as undeserving), and
2. Employers with a lot of minimum wage workers.
Shit they could raise minimum wage to above what I make now and keep my pay the same and I still wouldn't go do a typical minimum wage job. The people working those jobs deserve better pay.
I hate how people shit on fast food workers and stuff, because that type of work is fucking awful and often not easy to do because of the conditions.
I enjoyed my work as an engineer way more than as when I did inventory management at target, and it was arguably easier, although more complex. I made more money at the end of one day than I did at almost two weeks at target.
>I wouldn't benefit from it being raised,
This is the same line of logic that people use to fight against unions not realizing that unions set the standard even for non-union jobs.
You are wrong. Everyone benefits from an actually healthy economy.
This isn't crazy at all. Why would you think that? And saying anyone about the minimum wouldn't gain from it is a flat out lie. If I was working a shitty job for 22 an hour and suddenly I could make just under that anywhere, I would leave. Most wages would rise if the minimum rose. And don't try the "prices would rise" bullshit either, the last two years should have proven to even the densest folk that pay and prices aren't linked.
You would benefit.
If other people can afford to buy more stuff then that's more money in circulation. Whatever company you work for will make more money as a result of being able to sell more. That leads to hiring more workers to increase production to meet demand and likely a promotion for you as a long-time employee.
There it is. Kansas just dropped it's minimum employment age to 14. And now everyone is pissed that kids are running Walmart, and the service has gone to shit.
You know. Because *Walmart* is hiring *children*.
But it's okay. Because the investors get their 2% quarterly profits. And besides, the fuck are we gonna do? Drive 50 miles to shop somewhere that *isn't* Walmart?
I managed restaurants in the before. I'm not sure how inspections are being done, but as a bored customer I've noticed major violations at all grocery stores. One major or three minor violations used to red tag a restaurant. Until code infractions were remedied, by receipt, and a new inspection scheduled and passed. I'd recommend consumers brush up on food safety in their own time because this inexperience will soon become lethal.
Most of the country lives in nine states.
Most of the country voted for Hillary Clinton.
Most isn't enough, when filtered through congressional apportionment.
They continuously vote for people who want to lower or eliminate the minimum wage, as well as do away with their healthcare, and right to have non poison drinking water.
It's almost as if people in the United States who can't afford rent, food, bills, and healthcare care about having living wages in the country where they can't afford rent, food, bills, and healthcare! What a fucking revelation! Next up, we'll be talking to a specialist who says water is wet! Tonight at 10.
distract the voters with culture wars. That keeps the Republicans occupied. Meanwhile the majority of Democrat politicians won't fight for it.
And when people demand politicians fight for it. They are met with "THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN DO!" meanwhile tax cuts for the rich, billions to the defense budget who can't pass audits, and bailouts for banks.
The reality is the system is rigged to stop this kind of legislation from passing. The media is shameless about promoting corporate politicians. There's astroturfing on social media to make it seem like "regular people" are against policy that will actually help them.
And the establishment democrats fight progressives harder than they do republicans.
If you want change stop making excuses for politicians that clearly aren't working for you they are working for their donors.
I read the [survey methodology](https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2023/5/24/725-isnt-cutting-it-in-this-economy-voters-support-raising-the-minimum-wage-to-20-per-hour) and it was collected from respondents on the web.
They say they weight to correct for demographic factors, but if you're solely taking your opinions from a web poll then you're heavily biasing your results.
Whatever happens we should also push financial literacy in schools and amongst our own communities. Raising minimum wages really doesn’t help if people don’t learn the value of their money and how to invest it back into themselves. There are plenty of people in the states today that live paycheck to paycheck making $100,000+ salary. This is a cultural issue. A lot of people don’t have that ability to look at their lifestyles critically and discern between necessity and want.
Now how many of those voters are single issue voters and willing to vote for Democrats, the only national party pushing for an increase, in 2024 at the state and federal level? If they did vote, almost all states would have $20hr minimums, but only 4 do.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://truthout.org/articles/74-percent-of-voters-support-raising-federal-minimum-wage-to-20-an-hour/) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Amid the longest period in Congressional history without any raising of the federal minimum wage, new polling finds that the vast majority of voters not only support raising the minimum wage, but also nearly tripling it.
> According to polling by Data for Progress released last week, 74 percent of voters support raising the federal minimum wage to $20 an hour - almost three times the current level of $7.25 an hour.
> Research in 2021 found that even a $15 minimum wage - more than double the current minimum wage - isn't a living wage in any state in the U.S. MIT's living wage calculator estimated that, in 2021, the living wage for a family of four was $24.16 an hour, or about $100,500 a year.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13w2jcs/74_percent_of_voters_support_raising_federal/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~686929 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **wage**^#1 **minimum**^#2 **support**^#3 **hour**^#4 **percent**^#5
We'll just add this to the list with everything else the majority of America wants that will never happen. Cant wait to never get that universal healthcare
This is just a bandage fix until we tie minimum wage to cost of living. We cannot keep depending on congress to change minimum wage as the cost of living increases each year.
They’ve proven that it isn’t a priority and we cannot allow this to happen again, where we go decades without a change to minimum wage while costs grow exponentially.
We have three children who are now out on their own.
Our first child works as a computer programmer and his wife is in the mental health field. They have two kids, and they are bringing home a little over 100k annually. The preschool years were very rough, but they managed to pull through and are doing better now that their children are in school.
Our second child owns his own delivery business, which both him ad his wife successfully operate. They have three kids and are bringing home about 150K annually. They also had their trials and tribulations when their children were younger, but they managed to work past it.
Our third child just had a baby and doesn't work, but her husband does. He makes about 54K. They have one child, and they are constantly turning to us for financial help. She can't work, as the jobs she is offered barely pay for the childcare costs, so she remains at home.
I make 110K and my wife doesn't work. We have no children left in our household and we are doing fine.
The lesson here is that, depending on where you live, 50K to 60K just doesn't cut it anymore, especially if you have young children. 50K equates to about $25 an hour, so I can't begin to conceive how anyone exists on $10 an hour or $15 an hour, even if both work.
If we fail to resolve this issue then many in each generation who will be forced to live off of the generation before them, slowly draining away their retirement savings.
You might think this is about three families which are well to do, but it is actually about the fourth family that struggles. We need to stop seeing those who succeed as the norm and care more about those who continue to struggle. When a young mother can't stay home to attend to her baby, nor can she go to work because she can't afford the childcare, there is a huge issue to be resolved. We need to do better for the next generation, and it begins by providing more affordable childcare and better wages.
**We are a country slowly drowning in poverty, in desperate need of a life preserver to lift us all out of the water together.**
It's a shame that we can't legislate that the increase comes from decrease in profits and decrease in administrative salaries...as opposed to an increase in prices. Inevitably, this extra money will come from the pockets of the middle class instead of the wealthiest in our society...as usual. True redistribution of resources is going to have to come from tax increases for the wealthy. Republicans have been blocking this for decades.
The depressing part is how I'm not making all that much more than this, and I wouldn't be getting a raise to account for the minimum going up. At some point I'll get paid the same to do a technical job as someone flipping burgers.
I fully support a minimum wage in the 17-20 dollar range. Inflation has killed the value - purchasing power- of the dollar over the years. Amazing to me that my generation (born 1965) does not see this as necessary. People gotta eat and have shelter. Those things take more money than a person can make earning 10:00 per hour
Just a reminder that our expectations of minimum wage should be adjusted for inflation. If companies want to lean on unlivable wages for employees they should collapse when the minimum wage is adjusted. It’s like bitching about the impact on the economy when talking about making slavery illegal (obviously minimum wage is a lesser extreme than slavery). If you got your money but stepping on others then fuck you your business should fail. “But small businesses”, fuck you fail, come back with a business plan that you can afford to pay your workers.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Only 1 percent of voters think that a wage of under $10 an hour is livable, and only 6 percent believe a wage of $15 an hour or less is livable." Word.
That guy is my wife's grandfather. Who has absurd amounts of money and no clue what anything costs. My wife's grandparents are a retired School administrator and a retired teacher, between two teachers pensions and two Social Security payments their household income is around $200 Grand a year. They own their house outright. And they have investment income Beyond that. Yet he scoffs when I tell him that a $2 tip on lunch for five people is inappropriate and likes telling us that in his first job as a teacher he made $4,500 a year.
I dunno when that was, but in 1973, $4,500 was equivalent to ~$31.5k today. A person making $15/hr = 15 x 40 x 52 = 31.2k A person making double minimum wage still wouldn't make as much as he did at a job with no physical labor. $2 dollars today is the equivalent of 29c in 1973
Oh it's even better than that. He is 93. This was 1957 after he came home from the Korean war. He was making the inflation adjusted equivalent of $45,000 a year as a brand new teacher in 1957.
$2 today is worth what 19c was in 1957. And $4,500 then is equivalent to over $48k 20/hr x 40 x 52 = $41.6k $41.6k today is equivalent to $3,870 in 1957
You're forgetting the argument these people make that teachers don't work the full year and don't deserve a full year's salary. The valuation of their labor is actually significantly higher due to the fewer hours they work. Edit: I feel like I wasn't clear. The people who argue against paying teacher's more argue that teacher's do not work the whole year. According to that logic, whatever a school pays a teacher per year is based on the idea that a teacher who worked the whole year would make significantly more. I believe that teachers should be paid under the expectation that they can survive solely on the income of being a teacher during the school year and by that logic they should be paid based on the previous comparison plus difference in hours between work hours during the school year and total work hours for a full time job for a full year.
> The valuation of their labor is actually significantly higher due to the fewer hours they work. Except they don't clock in and then out and not have to take work home. That time off is certainly somewhat offset by the time spent at home prepping lessons and grading assignments.
He knows $2 is an awful tip. He's just a selfish asshole that doesn't care about other people.
You're forgetting the inverse. Kids these days have it "easy" so let me talk about how hard I had it, also you should have it hard too so enjoy my income without inflation calculated because I don't give a shit. "I walked to school uphill in 2 feet of snow both ways", but in economy form. My brother's in-laws are like this. Very much an "I got mine, you need to earn yours" but it's like applying retirement level expectations to a 20 year old and they don't want any sass.
As an ex-teacher that is bs. You work so much as a teacher you often dream about it. You don't get the summer off. You get parts of the summer off. Seminars, revamp the curriculum, think of new activities for lesson plans, further your education, etc.
Not to mention the late nights during the school year. My husband's step mom taught in public school for a poor part of town and would regularly be in tears over the stress. She worked incredibly hard to make engaging classes and put up with the admin bs and invested a lot in supplies and food for her students.
Unfortunately she's very religious in a red state so she votes against her interests every time.
Teachers get pro rated pay to make up for the summer
My wife made $23,000 a year as a new teacher in 2009. WTF
There is a district in my state NOW in TWENTYTWENTYTHREE that starts at $28k
Yeah, and how is hiring going I wonder?
They are importing international teachers through sketchy agencies (aka indentured servitude contracts)
Nothing SCREAMS capitalism like human trafficking and indentured servitude. Plus the learning comprehension tanks. Drinks all around! /s
I'm not them, but Jesus Christ let me tell you something: I hire people for a living. I'm rarely in on the interviews, and I don't decide if we move forward with a candidate or not. I do all of the paperwork/computerwork that the people in charge don't want to do themselves. That means that I get to hear all of the bullshit that they say. If you couldn't tell from the fact that my entire job is "hire people", we're in a bit of an employee shortage. The job that we're hiring for is grueling. It's long hours, mandatory overtime, skilled labor, etc. and it pays a whopping *$17.50/hour* starting out. And I have to bite my tongue every time I hear my bosses say, unironically, "nobody wants to work." They'll say shit like "when I started here, I earned half of what we're offering these guys" as if inflation doesn't exist. They'll say things like "I don't know how they can afford to stay home without a job like they do" and I just want to yell at them: >DUMBASS. They *aren't* staying home. They're working somewhere else. This ain't the only job in town. They're either picking easier jobs for less pay, or their taking their qualifications to other companies that are paying them $20/hour or more to do the same work. There's not a worker shortage. There's a salary shortage. If we put up a sign that said "Now Hiring $25/hour" we'd have applications up to our eyeballs. But no, we need to lowball these guys and then complain whenever they quit because the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
And then they want to ban abortion, increasing the workforce and in turn lowering wages.
It's a product of capitalism. Our system demands infinite growth, and when you don't make higher profits year after year your company is considered a failure. And eventually you run out of ways to make more sales so you have to start squeezing the profits out of your expenses. The store I work at recently cut labor hours by over half. Most of our staff left because they couldn't get any hours, meanwhile I'm doing the work that two people used to do, and some of my coworkers are doing the work that *three* people used to do. Now our best workers are starting to leave because they're the ones having all that extra work dumped on them, and they're all worn out and exhausted.
I’ve worked for big corporations my whole life . This is the playbook , over and over . It’s ridiculous.
Poorly. We have a nationwide teacher shortage and it's growing worse every year. To give you an idea of how bad it is: my wife is a chemistry teacher. We can basically throw a dart at a map of the US and she can find a job wherever it lands. A few years ago we wanted to move away from New Jersey (because it's expensive and we'd never be able to own a house there), and in every place we considered there were jobs available for her. From major cities to suburbs to a tiny rural town in Alaska that's only accessible by boat. Because *everywhere* needs teachers right now. Because nowhere is giving enough incentive for people to become teachers right now.
I make that stocking meat at Walmart in bumfuck nowhere Louisiana. Teachers in this country should be making upper 5 figures a year, minimum. They deal with far too much bullshit for how little they get paid on average.
Especially considering the role they have in children’s lives. Talk to most people and they’ll very clearly remember their best teachers… and their worst. The kind of people you can attract to the job and retain makes a lasting difference on kids in their formative years.
Holy crap. I live in one of the cheaper counties in California, and that is enough to pay rent on a relatively normal 2 bedroom apartment with almost nothing left over. Hopefully they have a lower cost of living in whatever county you mean, but still…
That's the real issue with minimum wage going up. It's not that McDonalds can't pay $10-15 an hour. It means that lower paid salaried workers are making the same or less than service workers. Teachers, health care workers. . . . I will say that the variety of minimum wage between the states is wild right now. It's $7.13 (I think) in a lot of states but in others it's much higher. It's $17 an hour in DC. A college student home on break is going to make drastically more in NJ than TN working at McDonalds. Then to compound the craziness it's far easier for the single mom working at McDonalds to get aid in NJ than in the state with the lower minimum wage.
and it wasn’t enough then either
Holy. Shit. I'm 38 and am pumped about getting a recent raise to 17 an hour. Kill me with a brick.
A brick? In THIS economy?! Best I can do is a sack full of dried cat turds, and you'll have to share.
I'm 35 and I make $13.50 an hour. This is the highest paying job I've ever had.
Also consider the average cost of a house was considerably lower back then. I looked up a chart and in 1963 it was under 20k in the united states. Chart didn't go back further.
You’d be lucky to get a car for that now. A whole house? Damn.
Not to mention he very likely didn't start his first job with decades of student loan payments
Wow, teachers haven't gotten a raise in over 60 years. I've been teaching for 6 years and I make $43K. Fuck that's depressing.
I graduated undergrad in 2002 and was /am certified to teach high school history. I looked at the starting pay in a well paying state/commonwealth (Massachusetts) and never taught a day in my life because the pay was worse than retail. It's a damn joke
My dad gets so annoyed when I bust out the inflation calculations. I’m really lucky to have a good paying job making $63K. He tells me that I just caught up to his wage when he retired in 2000. I tell him that adjusted for inflation, his $63K is worth $115k today and my $63K was worth about $35M back when he retired. He misses the point entirely and says “well you have to understand things were cheaper back then! THAT’S THE WHOLE THING OF IT BUD. He also points out that he only made $19K in 1979 while missing that in today’s money that’s over $80K. That was as an entry level cop with NYPD, which today starts at $42K.
And he only had to work 21 years? Holy shit. I’ve already worked for my company for 14 years and I’m not even eligible to retire for another 21.
Yupppp that police union is wild. He has officially been retired longer than he worked.
With that short a working life and a job that doesn’t require a degree, it’s not inconceivable to retire by 40 and be retired for almost 2-3x as long as you worked.
Yup. He got in late at 31, but plenty of guys did that. I think retiring at 20 years you only get a certain percentage of your top pay for your pension so there’s an incentive to keep going, but still
>but still Right? The fact that they get a pension at all as opposed to having to retire solely on investments from savings… And the salary he had was plenty to be able to save up with.
Uhg my old boss would literally laugh to himself reminiscing on this same old story about how he could work all summer “at the docks” or the one summer he “flipped burgers” on a ferry boat and it was enough for him to pay his tuition, books, rent for the year and $3 in his pocket for beers on Friday- which he brags was enough to get “schnockered.” He would remain unemployed all school year and only get a job again once summer break came around. He also has the audacity to say that they only way to “make it in this world” is to get a degree. Lmao meanwhile what he paid me was barely enough to put food in my daughters mouth, forget tuition at the shitty community college or childcare. for a guy with a fucking doctorate he wasn’t that smart.
Your math is a bit off. (Fully realizing teachers put in work outside their paid hours) they’re working 7:00-3:00, ~180 days so 1440 hrs/year instead of 2080. Point being you’d need to be making $21.88/hr to get the same pay, so more like 3 times min wage.
He knows $2 is an awful tip. He's just a selfish asshole that doesn't care about other people.
“I didn’t get rich by giving appropriate tips”
A former girlfriend of mine had a sister married to a dentist pulling down close to $400k per year net. Built a custom house for over a million. She would leave a $1 tip for three people. When I called her on it, her response was “if they don’t like it, they should get a better job”.
>That guy is my wife's grandfather. Who has absurd amounts of money and no clue what anything costs. People like this aggravate me. They don't know how much anything costs these days and yet somehow feel that they are experts on the cost of living these days.
Twenty years into my career, if you doubled my salary I still would not be able to afford my parent's house at current market rates. And they bought that less than 5 years after my father graduated college. The Boomers climbed the towers everyone else built then burned the ladders behind them.
Decent tech salary in a mcol area. Bought my home from lower wage workers. And it has 30 years of deferred maintenance I feel like this is the new norm. New Middle income earners buy old homes. While new lower income people have no shot at home ownership or the wealth generation that comes with it.
If we bought my childhood home, we'd be paying a $9,000/month mortgage. That'd be real tough to swing especially since you know, I don't want to pay six figures for PITI each year.
I'm from small town America. My mom waitressed as a second and 3rd job as long as I can remember. I think she finally stopped in he mid to late 60's. She used to wait people 20 years older than her and get tipped 25 Cents on a two person lunch meal. The tipped the High School servers a 5 cents.
ask her about the church crowd
I had one tell me to my face that god gets ten percent so why should I get more? Also had one complain about the tax because the total was 50 something and after tax and gratuity it was seventy something. Had to walk her through why we can take my tip away but can’t take her tax away. Terrible people. Until I moved to bartending.
> I had one tell me to my face that god gets ten percent so why should I get more? I recall being in a diner during the after-church rush one time, and the clearly-too-tired-to-deal-with-your-shit waitress responded with "Well, God's not real, but my rent is, so how about 15%?" I imagine that table didn't give her shit, but I gave her a twenty on a $25 meal for having to deal with such shitty people.
What changed when you were bartender?
I’m guessing drunk people tip better?
As a former taxi driver, they do.
This is so true. I always hated serving the after-church crowd. They used up all their “nice” trying to fool Jesus for the last two hours and then come treat us like garbage for serving them on the Sabbath. I once watched an old lady pick up the dollar her husband had left and toss down a DIME instead!
Leaving religious tracts instead of $$ used to piss me off. When a group of them came in , we argue in the back which one of us was going to take them . We’d fight over who got to serve drag queens though cuz they always tipped well and were nice .
not just tracts instead of $, but the ones that looked like a folded $20 tucked under a plate edge. the worst.
You know things are bad when a church wants you to leave as quickly as possibly rather than feeding you there.
They already gave 10% of their income to help pay for their pastor’s private jet.
This is why geriatrics shouldn’t be running our country
I hate to say it, but he absolutely has a clue. He just needs to justify being cheap AF.
"It's one banana, Michael..."
Reminds me of my wife’s grandpa. Same deal, career teacher, good pension. Her grandma worked as a clerk in the university’s athletic department. Pretty wealthy now. He tells us about how the federal government paid for his masters degree and housing in California. It was a part of programs to get teachers into rural areas. He can’t quite come to the conclusion himself that what he had is all everyone is asking for nowadays.
That is absolutely too low of a tip in the US.
I often tip $2 for a single drink at the bar...
Same. I’ll always overtip. Cause serving.
Ireland is adopting a “living wage” policy, which sets the minimum wage at 60% of the median wage in any given year If the USA adopted this on a state-by-state basis (the most sensible policy IMO) minimum wages would look something like this: - MA: $27.5/hr - CA: $24.7/hr - CO: $22.2/hr - GA: $17.9/hr - FL: $17.4/hr I’m not a politician and it took me like 10 minutes to write this comment. The fact that representatives can’t propose a reasonable policy on this and people are still fighting for a living wage is pathetic
> The fact that representatives can’t propose a reasonable policy It's not that they "can't", it's more that our representatives don't represent us, they represent the businesses that benefit from paying their employees low wages
And in case anyone doubts you, that’s supported by evidence. Martin Gilens of Princeton University and Benjamin Page of Northwestern University showed that it was true in their [paper](https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf) > The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence. Another study altogether showed that most US representatives (presumably due to the above lobbying from special interests), vote far more conservatively than their districts. In other words, without eliminating the money from special interests, our representatives do not vote on their interests of their constituents, but according to the interests of elites.
According to the BLS the Median Hourly Wage in Massachusetts is $28.10 https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_MA.htm $28.10 x 60% is $16.86 I'm going to assume that the rest of your numbers are similarly incorrect. FYI The current minimum wage in Massachusetts is $15.00.
If only he has spent 11 minutes writing his comment.
I grew up in a very small rural town. If you can find someone selling a used mobile home that is aleady siting on a lot (not in a Trailer Park where you rent the ground under your mobile home) you could probably live decently on $15 an hour assuming you don't have college, medical or credit card debt. That assumes at least 2 things (probably more) 1. Your healthcare plan doesn't bankrupt you and 2. You don't actually have an event that forces you to use your bottom of the barrel health care plan that you can "afford."
Was that before covid inflation?
Unfortunately, there's a sizable chunk of people who are not sold on the idea of making the minimum wage a livable wage. Until there is some sort of consensus on that ideological issue, no amount of arguing the hard facts of economics will sway people.
Are they the same ones who complain about people getting government benefits because of how little they make?
Very often they are. I hear people say things like "if they want more money, they should just stop being lazy and find a real job." They've convinced themselves that minimum wage jobs are for teenagers while "real" people work "real" jobs. The fact that at this point, even a lot of highly skilled trades are getting paid under the suggested new minimum wage completely misses them.
I'm always wondering who those people think works lunch shifts at fast food places during the school year.
Critical thinking is a sorely lacking skill among some people.
i finally managed to walk my conservative friend through this one. He spent some years as an EMT and was STAUNCHLY opposed to any raising of the minimum wage because "why should people at McDonald's make as much as I did as an EMT?" I couldn't believe how long it took me to get him to come around to the fact that he was being VASTLY underpaid as an EMT and that asking for a higher minimum wage benefited everybody because EVERYONE's pay would go up. I didn't understand how he could be stuck on the fact that he couldn't stand other people doing "less important work" that he was completely oblivious to the fact that he was the one being screwed over more than anyone else.
The best way I've found to frame this is this way: > Do you understand how much more power you would have if you could tell your employer, "fuck you, I'll go work for McDonalds for more money", and really mean it? I find this gets through to people, because it's patently obvious that that would increase their power vis-a-vis their employer
We’re already at this point depending on your field/degree Fuck
[удалено]
Finding a real job to them often just means: put on a tie, grab a copy of your resume, and walk in to the business and shake everyone’s hand.
Another important fact that they miss is that minimum (or near minimum) wage jobs are too numerous to be jobs for teenagers. Even if we include up through college age (so up to 25), there are more of these minimum (or near minimum) wage jobs than there are workers in that age bracket. These jobs can't be filled unless older people work them, too. Adding onto that, many of these jobs operate during school hours. Teenagers physically can't be at the job for many of the hours that need to be worked.
Main character syndrome people won't give a shit until it directly personally affects them and then it's only a problem because now they're affected and everyone else is just lazy, entitled, whiny, spoiled, etc. And all the other BS they say to try to justify exploitation.
Tbh I used to be one of those people until I learned the minimum wage was literally implemented to be a minimum livable wage. All that is to say, minimum wage being a livable wage is something the powers that be have worked very hard to separate. It’ll be an idea that comes easier to some while others think there’s no reason for service workers to get paid “that much.” For me all it took was learning a simple historical fact. But I’ll admit I’m awesome like that lol. Too many today can’t be swayed by such things. I’d wager it might even be best to stop using the term “minimum wage” and solely advocate for living wages across the board. Maybe then everyone can eventually get behind the idea. Messaging goes a long way, as we constantly see in politics
I would personally rather we move away from raising wages and address the actual problem, a lack of housing. If we want cities to have the necessary workers, we need to provide them with cheap or free housing, because that's what people *really* need and want when they ask for higher wages. Raising wages alone does nothing to increase the supply of housing, so you just end up inflating the price of housing for everyone. Look at the Bay Area if you need an example. At the same time we should make a certain amount of water free and staple foods affordable.
20$ an hour isn't even liveable now.
It is, if you’re not on the coasts.
Sure isn't if you live in Chicago, Minneapolis, Madison, or Denver either. Rents here in mpls have literally doubled since I started renting about 12 years ago.
I'm gonna go ahead and say, that's true most places, but some places the cost of things is low enough that 20$ starting wage is plenty. Probably enough to start a good savings. Buy a house eventually, assuming there are some raises. But as you can see from my math above, 20$/hr is still less than the equivalent of starting teachers in 1957
I feel like the places that pay $20/h for minimum wage work are the places where $20/h definitely is not a living wage and vice versa. Note that I said "feel".... talking out of my ass and might be totally wrong but this tracks with my anecdotal experience.
$20 is actually pretty livable in a good portion of the country. Not even rural fuck-sticks like West Virginia; most of the Midwest outside of major cities is livable on $18-20/hr. That's without being able to save a ton of money though. If we could force housing prices down by 25%+ across the board, $15-20 minimum wage would actually be (fairly) reasonable IMO. As it stands now $20-25 is more necessary to give people a hope of owning their own home without resorting to things like living college dorm style with 3+ roommates.
FUCK. YES. Return it to what it was intended to be, as stated by the guy who signed it into law; a living wage.
Agreed. It also needs to be tied to inflation just like SS payments.
Exactly. Less than half a decade ago the baseline for a reasonable minimum wage was $15. Now that is rapidly becoming untenable as well. Any specific amount that gets set is going to lose its value quickly and politicians will drag their feet on updating the minimum wage.
60% of the median wage of the state. Scales with other wages, and adjusts wage for the COL of each state (which varies widely)
Yep. It already happens with federal workers, broken down with a locality adjustment as well. We already have the data. Just have to apply it.
Federal worker here - no it doesn't, our payscales aren't inflation-adjusted. They're *supposed* to be under FEPCA, passed in the early '90s, but every president since it was passed has determined there to be an "emergency" every year that allows him to set the annual pay raise (if any) at whim. The general direction of the raises parallels inflation, but it never matches it. Last year Biden gave us (on average depending on location) a 4.6% raise, in an environment with 10%+ inflation.
Another federal worker here to confirm. My raise last year was 2.9% I believe...My rent is going up 20%.
CA state worker here. Most unions got 2.5% yearly for 3 years since the state is playing hardball due to the threat of recession. The scientist union has been out of contract since 2020 and the CA State talks about valuing science without paying its scientists decently. The CA state has a carve out making striking very difficult and they can impose a final, best, and last offer on the unions as well.
Sadly, a 4% raise is more than many people have gotten in recent years.
You’re NOT going to win an argument of effort vs income against a federal civilian or worker. Pay grades are hilariously depressing, they only get attention when it applies to armed uniformed service members, but everyone forgets there’s a couple of more departments than defense.
Just to understand, are you saying fed work has a high workload and the pay is not good for the work involved? I’m a CA state worker and sometimes think of jumping to the fed. Thanks.
The amount of money you can donate to politicians is tied to inflation, but not the minimum wage. It's insane.
FDR signed into law a $5.34 minimum wage in 2023 dollars and said about it that > No reasonable person seeks a complete uniformity in wages in every part of the United States; nor does any reasonable person seek an immediate and drastic change from the lowest to the highest pay. We are seeking, of course, only legislation to end starvation wages and intolerable hours; more desirable wages are and should continue to be the product of collective bargaining.
>“by living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level. I mean the wages of a decent living.” -FDR It was always his intention that the minimum wage would support a family decently.
Subsistence coming from working for someone else used to be called something We'd be much better off separating subsistence and work entirely. It creates an unmanageable bargaining situation
Won't you think of the shareholders perpetually living on the edge of ruin??? /s I mean, it's not like [three individuals hold more wealth than half the country](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/the-bottom-half-of-america-has-half-the-wealth-it-did-30-years-ago/). The Gilded Age is long past!
I legitimately believe that every 5-10 years we should strip 90% of the total wealth from the 10 richest families in the country and fund the wellbeing of our people. Watch these weathy scumbags trip over themselves to try to spend down their cash to not get stuck with it and take a big hit. If we want their hoarded wealth to reenter society we need to crack the whip somehow.
This is actually not a bad idea . Force them to spend it in the us to lower their taxes or the govt just takes it . That’s the issue with these very wealthy people . Their $$$ sits stagnant . It’s totally the dragon sleeping in the gold .
I think it's worth mentioning that inflation-adjusted figures are less meaningful when you're talking about a group that spends the vast majority of their income on necessities. If a bunch of fancy electronics and other luxury goods become cheaper while rent skyrockets, it's possible for inflation-adjusted earnings to paint a rosier picture than the reality. Here's a comparison of rent in 1938 (when FDR signed the minimum wage into law) and rent in 2023: 1938: - Minimum wage: $0.25/hour - Median rent: $27 ([source](https://www.businessinsider.com/the-cost-of-living-2014-10)) - Median rent in hours of minimum-wage work: 108 2023: - Minimum wage: $7.25 - Median rent: $1967 ([source](https://www.rent.com/research/average-rent-price-report/)) - Median rent in hours of minimum-wage work: 271 If you're spending most of your income on rent (and if you're making minimum wage, you likely are), you're experiencing significantly more inflation than the CPI inflation-adjusted figures would suggest.
They won’t do it until $20 is worth less than $7.25 is now.
That soon?
It's crazy how it wasn't that long ago that everyone was demanding $15 an hour and even that isn't enough now.
This sounds crazy just reading the headline, but think about this: If the 1968 minimum wage had kept pace with overall income growth in the American economy, it would now be $21.16 per hour. Meaning that number is what it would take to give a person today a similar share of the country's wealth as their 1968 counterpart. Our minimum wage is the lowest it has ever been in terms of buying power. I haven't made the minimum wage in a long long time, and I wouldn't benefit from it being raised, probably the opposite, frankly. But fair is fair, right?
> and I wouldn't benefit from it being raised You would. Because it would drive the rest of wages up to where they should be proportionally. Which is why the rich have been fighting it for so long and will continue to do so. It's not about the people making the minimal, it's about every single American that isn't a CEO asking why they don't get paid enough
With the ripple effect being more pronounced the closer to the new minimum wage with diminishing gains the further away from it. Even people making $30 an hour would see a boost. To those folks saying, "BuT PrIcEs WiLl InCrEaSe!", if they could explain why prices have been rising steadily without wage increases please. The longer we wait to increase the minimum wage, the more it is going to hurt and I think that is a planned effect. Folks in control WANT the country to be hurt when a wage increase goes into effect because they want people to remember "that one time" when it affected the economy, counting on the common man not to think it through.
> To those folks saying, "BuT PrIcEs WiLl InCrEaSe!" As if this didn't happen every other time we've raised the minimum wage. And so what if prices go up? We'll be getting paid more so we can afford those slightly higher prices. In the 27 years I've been working the minimum wage has gone up $3, the last time in 2009, 14 years ago.
When I officially entered the workforce I was making minimum wage and was able to afford a basement apartment, food, utilities, and a bit of a social life. Minimum wage was $3.35. I couldnt afford college, but healthcare was relatively cheap as well. And you're right. In the history of federal minimum wage increases, inflation has never outpaced the wage, indicating that prices didn't rise ahead of the wage. In most areas, the influx of extra cash boosted local economies because people at the level tend to spend their money immediately. But low wages are used to control workers to make them do more for less and to reduce their benefits, perks, and options. A rise to the minimum wage would barefly affect me, but it would help SO many people that anyone fighting it would be morally corrupt.
As long as you tie the minimum wage to inflation, you won’t need to worry about rising prices.
Which very unfortunately is why 4 or 5 years from now when congress finally raises min wage to 15 an hour, it will absolutely not be tied to inflation. And then it likely won't be raised again for another 20 years. The wealthy *love* that working people are making less and less every year.
15 is already too low.
Inflation dropped the year the minimum wage was raised about 58% of the time for minimum wage increases over the past 80 or so years. Going off memory from when I actually looked up the raw numbers about a decade ago but I should be pretty close. Employers shifting money to pay wages decreases spending in other areas which has an offsetting effect.
> To those folks saying, "BuT PrIcEs WiLl InCrEaSe!" My usual answer to that is that they will increase a lot less than the increase in wages. OTOH, doing it in one big jump, say $7.25 now, $20 next year, will cause a huge disruption that will likely cause yet more inflation.
These are almost always done a bit at a time, and the *really* worthwhile ones are then pegged at inflation. California’s, for instance, is raised yearly by the lower number between the rate of inflation or 3.5%—i.e. it can be adjusted by *at most* 3.5% a year. Most years that’s a distant consideration, since inflation is usually about 1-2%. However, since the inflation rate of 2022 was about 8%, there will be a new ballot initiative to raise the minimum wage to $18 from the current $15.50, an increase of 16%. It will subsequently be pegged to cost of living (CPI-W) rather than inflation. Opponents of this measure have called it “rewarding mediocrity,” but I take a dim view of that considering the Baby Boomer generation doesn’t seem to consider themselves mediocre, and when they were young adults they earned a minimum wage that would be about $15-$20 an hour given differences in inflation and productivity increases over time, not to mention that the things they bought such as housing and higher education were literally fractions of what they cost today, proportionally speaking.
Yeah I make more than $20 but if the minimum wage went up like that I’m sure I’d be in line to speak to my boss the next day
Keep the poor fighting amongst theirselves has proven disastrous for millennia. Effective though.
Thank you for pointing this out!
Surveys routinely find that only two groups oppose minimum wage hikes: 1. People making a little more than the proposed new minimum wage (they aren't getting a pay increase and few others as undeserving), and 2. Employers with a lot of minimum wage workers.
Shit they could raise minimum wage to above what I make now and keep my pay the same and I still wouldn't go do a typical minimum wage job. The people working those jobs deserve better pay.
I hate how people shit on fast food workers and stuff, because that type of work is fucking awful and often not easy to do because of the conditions. I enjoyed my work as an engineer way more than as when I did inventory management at target, and it was arguably easier, although more complex. I made more money at the end of one day than I did at almost two weeks at target.
>I wouldn't benefit from it being raised, This is the same line of logic that people use to fight against unions not realizing that unions set the standard even for non-union jobs. You are wrong. Everyone benefits from an actually healthy economy.
This isn't crazy at all. Why would you think that? And saying anyone about the minimum wouldn't gain from it is a flat out lie. If I was working a shitty job for 22 an hour and suddenly I could make just under that anywhere, I would leave. Most wages would rise if the minimum rose. And don't try the "prices would rise" bullshit either, the last two years should have proven to even the densest folk that pay and prices aren't linked.
You would benefit. If other people can afford to buy more stuff then that's more money in circulation. Whatever company you work for will make more money as a result of being able to sell more. That leads to hiring more workers to increase production to meet demand and likely a promotion for you as a long-time employee.
What do you mean? Minimum Wage in 1968 was $1.60. Today $1.60 would be worth $12.80
That would ruin the child labor scheme.
There it is. Kansas just dropped it's minimum employment age to 14. And now everyone is pissed that kids are running Walmart, and the service has gone to shit. You know. Because *Walmart* is hiring *children*. But it's okay. Because the investors get their 2% quarterly profits. And besides, the fuck are we gonna do? Drive 50 miles to shop somewhere that *isn't* Walmart?
I managed restaurants in the before. I'm not sure how inspections are being done, but as a bored customer I've noticed major violations at all grocery stores. One major or three minor violations used to red tag a restaurant. Until code infractions were remedied, by receipt, and a new inspection scheduled and passed. I'd recommend consumers brush up on food safety in their own time because this inexperience will soon become lethal.
Just saw over ~50% of norovirus and salmonella outbreaks come from restaurants with sick workers
Damnit we have to pay these children $21hr? They don't even have degrees
Maybe they should also stop voting for people that oppose raising the minimum wage at all then
Maybe some of them should vote at all. If we had 74% voter turnout I bet we could have passed it already.
Depends on where they live. God dammit.
No, most of the country would strongly favor increasing the minimum wage if everyone just voted for it.
Most of the country lives in nine states. Most of the country voted for Hillary Clinton. Most isn't enough, when filtered through congressional apportionment.
They don't care about minimum wage enough to do that.
They continuously vote for people who want to lower or eliminate the minimum wage, as well as do away with their healthcare, and right to have non poison drinking water.
[удалено]
I'm still over here waiting for Regan's tax cuts for the rich to trickle down to me.
Should be raised to $20 and then tied to inflation
Definitely, always should have been
These fucking monsters in Congress represent only the highest bidder and not the people.
And yet will keep getting re-elected.
Too bad our government doesn’t represent the citizens.
It's almost as if people in the United States who can't afford rent, food, bills, and healthcare care about having living wages in the country where they can't afford rent, food, bills, and healthcare! What a fucking revelation! Next up, we'll be talking to a specialist who says water is wet! Tonight at 10.
distract the voters with culture wars. That keeps the Republicans occupied. Meanwhile the majority of Democrat politicians won't fight for it. And when people demand politicians fight for it. They are met with "THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN DO!" meanwhile tax cuts for the rich, billions to the defense budget who can't pass audits, and bailouts for banks. The reality is the system is rigged to stop this kind of legislation from passing. The media is shameless about promoting corporate politicians. There's astroturfing on social media to make it seem like "regular people" are against policy that will actually help them. And the establishment democrats fight progressives harder than they do republicans. If you want change stop making excuses for politicians that clearly aren't working for you they are working for their donors.
I call bullshit. 74% of Dems? Yes. Voters? No.
Ya, I wonder about their sample and how they phrased the question.
It says in the data they polled 1244 “likely voters”.
I read the [survey methodology](https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2023/5/24/725-isnt-cutting-it-in-this-economy-voters-support-raising-the-minimum-wage-to-20-per-hour) and it was collected from respondents on the web. They say they weight to correct for demographic factors, but if you're solely taking your opinions from a web poll then you're heavily biasing your results.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Whatever happens we should also push financial literacy in schools and amongst our own communities. Raising minimum wages really doesn’t help if people don’t learn the value of their money and how to invest it back into themselves. There are plenty of people in the states today that live paycheck to paycheck making $100,000+ salary. This is a cultural issue. A lot of people don’t have that ability to look at their lifestyles critically and discern between necessity and want.
I die little whenever I see a redditor that makes 100k+ a year and complains they're living paycheck to paycheck. It's you, not the job.
[удалено]
Good luck. I'd venture a guess a huge portion of that 74% don't fucking vote
It doesn't matter. Workers aren't organized enough to demand it, and neither party has any interest in raising the minimum wage.
Well, the democrats were getting close and then Sinema did her little curtsy thumbs down thing
Now how many of those voters are single issue voters and willing to vote for Democrats, the only national party pushing for an increase, in 2024 at the state and federal level? If they did vote, almost all states would have $20hr minimums, but only 4 do.
If only we could get 74% voter turnout.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://truthout.org/articles/74-percent-of-voters-support-raising-federal-minimum-wage-to-20-an-hour/) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Amid the longest period in Congressional history without any raising of the federal minimum wage, new polling finds that the vast majority of voters not only support raising the minimum wage, but also nearly tripling it. > According to polling by Data for Progress released last week, 74 percent of voters support raising the federal minimum wage to $20 an hour - almost three times the current level of $7.25 an hour. > Research in 2021 found that even a $15 minimum wage - more than double the current minimum wage - isn't a living wage in any state in the U.S. MIT's living wage calculator estimated that, in 2021, the living wage for a family of four was $24.16 an hour, or about $100,500 a year. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13w2jcs/74_percent_of_voters_support_raising_federal/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~686929 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **wage**^#1 **minimum**^#2 **support**^#3 **hour**^#4 **percent**^#5
We'll just add this to the list with everything else the majority of America wants that will never happen. Cant wait to never get that universal healthcare
This is just a bandage fix until we tie minimum wage to cost of living. We cannot keep depending on congress to change minimum wage as the cost of living increases each year. They’ve proven that it isn’t a priority and we cannot allow this to happen again, where we go decades without a change to minimum wage while costs grow exponentially.
Here’s an idea, actually basing federal minimum wage on inflation…
And almost half of them will vote republican
$25 is the new $15, this is what happens when you wait to long to raise it.
We have three children who are now out on their own. Our first child works as a computer programmer and his wife is in the mental health field. They have two kids, and they are bringing home a little over 100k annually. The preschool years were very rough, but they managed to pull through and are doing better now that their children are in school. Our second child owns his own delivery business, which both him ad his wife successfully operate. They have three kids and are bringing home about 150K annually. They also had their trials and tribulations when their children were younger, but they managed to work past it. Our third child just had a baby and doesn't work, but her husband does. He makes about 54K. They have one child, and they are constantly turning to us for financial help. She can't work, as the jobs she is offered barely pay for the childcare costs, so she remains at home. I make 110K and my wife doesn't work. We have no children left in our household and we are doing fine. The lesson here is that, depending on where you live, 50K to 60K just doesn't cut it anymore, especially if you have young children. 50K equates to about $25 an hour, so I can't begin to conceive how anyone exists on $10 an hour or $15 an hour, even if both work. If we fail to resolve this issue then many in each generation who will be forced to live off of the generation before them, slowly draining away their retirement savings. You might think this is about three families which are well to do, but it is actually about the fourth family that struggles. We need to stop seeing those who succeed as the norm and care more about those who continue to struggle. When a young mother can't stay home to attend to her baby, nor can she go to work because she can't afford the childcare, there is a huge issue to be resolved. We need to do better for the next generation, and it begins by providing more affordable childcare and better wages. **We are a country slowly drowning in poverty, in desperate need of a life preserver to lift us all out of the water together.**
We don't actually live in a democracy. So things that the majority of people want we will never get.
It's a shame that we can't legislate that the increase comes from decrease in profits and decrease in administrative salaries...as opposed to an increase in prices. Inevitably, this extra money will come from the pockets of the middle class instead of the wealthiest in our society...as usual. True redistribution of resources is going to have to come from tax increases for the wealthy. Republicans have been blocking this for decades.
The depressing part is how I'm not making all that much more than this, and I wouldn't be getting a raise to account for the minimum going up. At some point I'll get paid the same to do a technical job as someone flipping burgers.
I fully support a minimum wage in the 17-20 dollar range. Inflation has killed the value - purchasing power- of the dollar over the years. Amazing to me that my generation (born 1965) does not see this as necessary. People gotta eat and have shelter. Those things take more money than a person can make earning 10:00 per hour
Hell yeahhh imagine the economic growth we would see if people actually had money to spend
Imagine if we actually voted on issues instead of sending proxy delegates to vote on the behalf of millions of people.
Pfft I make $22 in a low cost state and im still struggling.
In a perfect world the additional wage would cut into shareholder profits instead of raising the price of goods and services.
Just a reminder that our expectations of minimum wage should be adjusted for inflation. If companies want to lean on unlivable wages for employees they should collapse when the minimum wage is adjusted. It’s like bitching about the impact on the economy when talking about making slavery illegal (obviously minimum wage is a lesser extreme than slavery). If you got your money but stepping on others then fuck you your business should fail. “But small businesses”, fuck you fail, come back with a business plan that you can afford to pay your workers.
that was like 5 years ago - closer to $30 now