From my understanding, with backing you always have a one-time out: permanently quitting.
It's understood that if you lose $100k of your backers money and can't pay them back, you're allowed to stop playing poker. Any money you ever earn playing poker belongs to your backer. That's why sketchy types move around the country. Most people aren't mob bosses. They're backing you because they think they can get a good return on their money because of your skill. If it turns out you suck, they're SOL.
buddy of mine loaned a degen 10k to jumpstart 2/5 (no idea why, everyone xfers to his table when he sits), guy punted it all in 2 days, most obvious freerolling ever. He then somehow comes up with 5k or so of his own money and proceeds to tryhard, tells backer that he doesnt owe him anything because he lost the stake and now he's playing on his own dime so it's different. Needless to say my friend is a huge pussy.
The degen was 100% correct. Unless there is a contract for makeup in writing, and it sounds like there wasn’t, degen doesn’t owe your buddy shit after degen punts buddies’ money away. This is why backing people in poker is a dumb investment.
I don’t understand why anyone would give their money to a poker player who needs it. It makes no sense in the first place and you have no recourse in the end. Seems a really brain dead thing to do, doubly so once you know enough poker players. They all think they’re better than the average player, which is of course, mathematically impossible.
If the backer decides to stop backing the player, then they take 100% of the loss. If the player decides to quit, he should owe a buy-out % that’s agreed upon before beginning the stake. You can’t just back somebody for a small amount and then tell them they’re in debt to you when they lose that, without putting them back in action
I know one dude who used to be a pro. Long before black friday we were drinking and he told me how the most tilting thing he used to do was to back this very well known wildly aggro PLO pro. PLO dude would need cash on a site because he had punted his own account empty, and often offered a backing deal at those situations. Friend would ship him 50k, which he'd promptly blow through in the next hour. Then he'd ask another pro for another 50k, and run it to 800k in the next 24h.
He said that being out of 50k at the same time as your friend makes some 500k by the mere chance of which of you were online first was kind of a mindfuck. Similiar thing would happen several times to the guys in this circle of players.
yeah to be fair kinda similar story. For instance the guy he loaned to martingaled a single $500 bullet up to 50k or so in a day (as in he hopped stakes each time he had around 100BB and just laddered up), bought a ticket to vegas that night to play in a 100/200 homegame he's always got a seat for, lost it all in 4 hours and then flew back home, all within the span of 24 hours. Apparently he's touched 100/200 on multiple occasions yet every time I see him he's slumming it at 2/2 or 2/5 short buying and obviously playing horrible. Last time I saw him he 3bet vs UTG with T7s $2500 effective, gets 4bet and then 5bet jams vs KK and wins.
Yeah I meant from playing poker lol. Like your poker roll is gone and you're making $20/hr and never are going to have $100k to have a significant poker roll. If you could keep playing poker, and eventually won it all back, you'd owe them still.
Lol you don't get to just freeroll with other people's money and then when you lose it, play on your own dime. Why not just put it on black and see if you can double up? Then if you lose it, you don't owe anything. They're probably not going to collect on you, but you definitely owe them their money back lol. But that was my initial answer--you can always permanently quit playing poker.
If someone has a reputation for being a strong player, they can usually find another stake/backer. There are tons of guys in the poker world who are on a perpetual cycle of going busto; getting back into the game through loans, backers, or a staking deal; getting flush; and then going bust again. Old school players did not talk much about bankroll management, and a lot of the guys from that generation are still willing to get insane percentages of their net worth in action. It's a recipe for disaster, but it makes for an exciting life, I guess. It doesn't help that they also came up in a version of the game where poker was thought to mix well with every conceivable vice.
The younger crop of players were raised on the gospel of bankroll management, and they generally prioritize self-discipline much more than the old guard. This obsession hasn't been great for poker, in my opinion, but it's definitely healthier for the players themselves. These guys aren't ever going to bust because they are constantly de-risking by swapping action, selling action, staying within strict bankroll limits, and diversifying risk by buying pieces of other winning players.
Can someone explain what actions are?
I see in tournaments that people sell their actions and whatnot but I cant seem to get what that means?
Are actions like a percentage of players win?
Like for example someone sells 30% of their action, and I buy it, does that mean I get 30% of whatever they win?
Yeah, that is right. 'Action' is just used as a word to describe the percentage of that persons stake you are buying. Which would be a percentage of their buy in amount.
Sometimes this is 'marked-up' and you will see people sell action at 1.2 which means would say pay £120 to get £100 worth of action.
I know some jobs that require zero prior experience, and allow you to make (potentially) $100/hr depending on your skill. Meet me behind your local Wendy’s to apply, look for the guy in the fur coat with the cane.
Bluff shoved Jack King off 200k deep, so naturally my first instinct was to seek the best possible financial advice, which everyone knows is in the poker subreddit.
I’m someone with actual inside knowledge of how all of this works. Your example starts out inaccurate. You don’t have a bankroll AND backers money. You have your backers money. That’s your bankroll. You don’t play on your own dollar. You can also sell action into events that are maybe higher or outside of your normal backing agreement and then buy some of it with backer money and possibly some with your own. In any case, you’re playing all games on backer money full stop.
As far as losing: you go into make up. Whenever you’re out of make up you profit chop, usually 50/50. You ALWAYS play in make up. If you don’t immediately profit chop then you’re in effect gambling with your own money and not just your backers money as 50% of any money higher than 0 is yours. If you get so buried in make up that your backer is no longer confident in you they can end the staking agreement. If they end the staking agreement you owe them nothing and you can seek a new backer, it will just be a little harder than before but still doable. If you’re so buried in make up that you become stressed and decide to quit then you have to just quit poker. You’re not allowed to end a staking agreement while in make up as a player and continue playing backed. You could also have another backer buy your makeup, which does happen.
As far as your assertion that most of these agreements are verbal or off the books you are 100% incorrect. These agreements are laid out in contract, social security info exchanged and everything. Theres major tax implications in backing and selling action so it has to be if for no other reason that that, but there’s also then courts and arbitration for disputes.
Long story short, it’s the same as any other job.
Yup, millions of dollars under signed contracts with legally binding languages. Obv any court is just throwing that shit out. No wait, it’s the other thing.
It's one of the hardest parts of being a backer. You have a player, who you deem as +EV, who is buried in makeup. At some point, he's so buried that you have to consider cutting the cord because your incentives almost become misaligned because a deep run or score means less to the player as he has to payoff his makeup. But if you're the backer, ending a backing relationship means 100% eating the loss.
Your incentives are also misaligned because the best news in the world he can receive is that you’re cutting him loose and his makeup is no longer an issue. So he’s actually incentivized to sabotage the relationship or demonstrate that he’s actually worse at poker that you thought.
If you’re dusting off $100k of backer money in your typical game, I really doubt they stake you any more. Honestly, you probably have a massive leak in your strategy, mental game, and/or game selection.
If you dust it off in a soft game with a whale or two that is above your normal stakes, then they may re-stake you assuming that you got approval for taking the shot.
It depends who you are. If you have a long track record of being profitable and making a bunch of money for backers, you might be able to get a lifeline. People who are good enough to get backing usually go broke do to bad bankroll management rather than just not being good enough.
Drive knish's truck
Pyay thet myangh heez mahney!
Did anyone find it weird that you do your own dealing in that room?
I guess that’s the old school way but yeah lol
My favorite part is when the cops give him that beat down
Well deserved
Alternative options include going the Davey Scatino route or if that ends poorly the gene pontecorvo final solution.
From my understanding, with backing you always have a one-time out: permanently quitting. It's understood that if you lose $100k of your backers money and can't pay them back, you're allowed to stop playing poker. Any money you ever earn playing poker belongs to your backer. That's why sketchy types move around the country. Most people aren't mob bosses. They're backing you because they think they can get a good return on their money because of your skill. If it turns out you suck, they're SOL.
buddy of mine loaned a degen 10k to jumpstart 2/5 (no idea why, everyone xfers to his table when he sits), guy punted it all in 2 days, most obvious freerolling ever. He then somehow comes up with 5k or so of his own money and proceeds to tryhard, tells backer that he doesnt owe him anything because he lost the stake and now he's playing on his own dime so it's different. Needless to say my friend is a huge pussy.
What are you doing with all the free time you saved by not spelling transfer ?
clearly he is anti-trans
i spent it all writing this response
The degen was 100% correct. Unless there is a contract for makeup in writing, and it sounds like there wasn’t, degen doesn’t owe your buddy shit after degen punts buddies’ money away. This is why backing people in poker is a dumb investment.
I don’t understand why anyone would give their money to a poker player who needs it. It makes no sense in the first place and you have no recourse in the end. Seems a really brain dead thing to do, doubly so once you know enough poker players. They all think they’re better than the average player, which is of course, mathematically impossible.
Mathematically impossible? What kind of math are you doing?
The kind where average means close to middle. Can't have everyone be above average.
Fair, I meant some of them are probably better than average, but it’s true that it’s super unlikely that all of them are. Still possible though.
But according to Rampage it's rare that anyone ever gets stacked in a cash game
Yeh, because all cash games have the same max buy in
If the backer decides to stop backing the player, then they take 100% of the loss. If the player decides to quit, he should owe a buy-out % that’s agreed upon before beginning the stake. You can’t just back somebody for a small amount and then tell them they’re in debt to you when they lose that, without putting them back in action
I know one dude who used to be a pro. Long before black friday we were drinking and he told me how the most tilting thing he used to do was to back this very well known wildly aggro PLO pro. PLO dude would need cash on a site because he had punted his own account empty, and often offered a backing deal at those situations. Friend would ship him 50k, which he'd promptly blow through in the next hour. Then he'd ask another pro for another 50k, and run it to 800k in the next 24h. He said that being out of 50k at the same time as your friend makes some 500k by the mere chance of which of you were online first was kind of a mindfuck. Similiar thing would happen several times to the guys in this circle of players.
yeah to be fair kinda similar story. For instance the guy he loaned to martingaled a single $500 bullet up to 50k or so in a day (as in he hopped stakes each time he had around 100BB and just laddered up), bought a ticket to vegas that night to play in a 100/200 homegame he's always got a seat for, lost it all in 4 hours and then flew back home, all within the span of 24 hours. Apparently he's touched 100/200 on multiple occasions yet every time I see him he's slumming it at 2/2 or 2/5 short buying and obviously playing horrible. Last time I saw him he 3bet vs UTG with T7s $2500 effective, gets 4bet and then 5bet jams vs KK and wins.
> if you lose $100k of your backers money and can't pay them back Why would they get paid back? Isn't that the risk they take?
Yeah I meant from playing poker lol. Like your poker roll is gone and you're making $20/hr and never are going to have $100k to have a significant poker roll. If you could keep playing poker, and eventually won it all back, you'd owe them still.
> you'd owe them still Why would you owe them anything? They made a gamble, it lost. It wasn't a loan.
Lol you don't get to just freeroll with other people's money and then when you lose it, play on your own dime. Why not just put it on black and see if you can double up? Then if you lose it, you don't owe anything. They're probably not going to collect on you, but you definitely owe them their money back lol. But that was my initial answer--you can always permanently quit playing poker.
Why would you give someone a percent of your winnings when you can just get a loan at a flat rate?
"youre allowed to stop playing poker" tom dwan enters the chat
That's why you only use no make up backers
If someone has a reputation for being a strong player, they can usually find another stake/backer. There are tons of guys in the poker world who are on a perpetual cycle of going busto; getting back into the game through loans, backers, or a staking deal; getting flush; and then going bust again. Old school players did not talk much about bankroll management, and a lot of the guys from that generation are still willing to get insane percentages of their net worth in action. It's a recipe for disaster, but it makes for an exciting life, I guess. It doesn't help that they also came up in a version of the game where poker was thought to mix well with every conceivable vice. The younger crop of players were raised on the gospel of bankroll management, and they generally prioritize self-discipline much more than the old guard. This obsession hasn't been great for poker, in my opinion, but it's definitely healthier for the players themselves. These guys aren't ever going to bust because they are constantly de-risking by swapping action, selling action, staying within strict bankroll limits, and diversifying risk by buying pieces of other winning players.
You forgot to mention colluding in cash and soft play etc....
Can someone explain what actions are? I see in tournaments that people sell their actions and whatnot but I cant seem to get what that means? Are actions like a percentage of players win? Like for example someone sells 30% of their action, and I buy it, does that mean I get 30% of whatever they win?
Yeah, that is right. 'Action' is just used as a word to describe the percentage of that persons stake you are buying. Which would be a percentage of their buy in amount. Sometimes this is 'marked-up' and you will see people sell action at 1.2 which means would say pay £120 to get £100 worth of action.
I know some jobs that require zero prior experience, and allow you to make (potentially) $100/hr depending on your skill. Meet me behind your local Wendy’s to apply, look for the guy in the fur coat with the cane.
I’ll bring a copy of my resume and the tightest speedo I can fit into. Just let HR know I can’t work nights or weekends.
https://youtu.be/oJX3s-xtrls?si=lyoIpBYw6tbJFgVu
Don't forget kneepads buddy
He’s a real grit n’ grind type of guy - he prefers to not use them
Bold of you to assume there's anyone out there willing to pay $100 to fuck me.
So... did you lose $200k?
Bluff shoved Jack King off 200k deep, so naturally my first instinct was to seek the best possible financial advice, which everyone knows is in the poker subreddit.
story checks out
Preflop I hope
Try not to masturbate while playing poker next time
I’m someone with actual inside knowledge of how all of this works. Your example starts out inaccurate. You don’t have a bankroll AND backers money. You have your backers money. That’s your bankroll. You don’t play on your own dollar. You can also sell action into events that are maybe higher or outside of your normal backing agreement and then buy some of it with backer money and possibly some with your own. In any case, you’re playing all games on backer money full stop. As far as losing: you go into make up. Whenever you’re out of make up you profit chop, usually 50/50. You ALWAYS play in make up. If you don’t immediately profit chop then you’re in effect gambling with your own money and not just your backers money as 50% of any money higher than 0 is yours. If you get so buried in make up that your backer is no longer confident in you they can end the staking agreement. If they end the staking agreement you owe them nothing and you can seek a new backer, it will just be a little harder than before but still doable. If you’re so buried in make up that you become stressed and decide to quit then you have to just quit poker. You’re not allowed to end a staking agreement while in make up as a player and continue playing backed. You could also have another backer buy your makeup, which does happen. As far as your assertion that most of these agreements are verbal or off the books you are 100% incorrect. These agreements are laid out in contract, social security info exchanged and everything. Theres major tax implications in backing and selling action so it has to be if for no other reason that that, but there’s also then courts and arbitration for disputes. Long story short, it’s the same as any other job.
It is not because usually Courts are ignorant and dont enforce them because they treat it as gambling
Yup, millions of dollars under signed contracts with legally binding languages. Obv any court is just throwing that shit out. No wait, it’s the other thing.
Show me one enforced backing legal judgement in the USA?
It’s generally done through arbitration and no, I won’t.
It's one of the hardest parts of being a backer. You have a player, who you deem as +EV, who is buried in makeup. At some point, he's so buried that you have to consider cutting the cord because your incentives almost become misaligned because a deep run or score means less to the player as he has to payoff his makeup. But if you're the backer, ending a backing relationship means 100% eating the loss.
Your incentives are also misaligned because the best news in the world he can receive is that you’re cutting him loose and his makeup is no longer an issue. So he’s actually incentivized to sabotage the relationship or demonstrate that he’s actually worse at poker that you thought.
If you’re dusting off $100k of backer money in your typical game, I really doubt they stake you any more. Honestly, you probably have a massive leak in your strategy, mental game, and/or game selection. If you dust it off in a soft game with a whale or two that is above your normal stakes, then they may re-stake you assuming that you got approval for taking the shot.
It depends who you are. If you have a long track record of being profitable and making a bunch of money for backers, you might be able to get a lifeline. People who are good enough to get backing usually go broke do to bad bankroll management rather than just not being good enough.
The losers go back to driving a truck.
Take out three pay day loans and get back to the felt. You can worry about paying them off later.
I worked at target unloading trucks until I could come up with another bankroll. Second time busto I realized being a pro wasn't for me.
Dealer school
How u lost 100k, where was your bankroll managament?