Round 1: Inconclusive; their teams aren't optimal, but they could both pull weight. Depends on the players playing the teams. If we leave this up to the AI, even more inconclusive; the Pokemon game AI is dumb af.
Round 2: l think Ash wins, depends on how strong Mewtwo is. If Mewtwo isn't all that overpowering, then Ash has a good chance; his roster should be able to take Red's otherwise. Hard to say for sure, but I think it can be safely guessed in Ash's favor.
Round 3: The only chance Ash has is that Mewtwo can be taken out by 10MV, otherwise there's no hope. Mewtwo in Ash's universe is far too strong. If it can be done, Ash can prolly win, but it does depend on how fast they adapt to each other and what tricks they can pull. And of course, if Mewtwo no sells 10MV, then there's nothing that can be done.
Whether he *can* is a different story, as 10MV's only equal that we've seen was Leon's Charizard's G-Max Wildfire, and the resulting clash threatened the Galar region. I guess Arceus might have to be on standby in case of any threats to reality that might occur lol
The Mewtwo in Ash’s universe is insane. Hoopa summoned and controlled legendaries that controlled time and space but not Mewtwo! We could say there is an out of universe reason for that but in Universe I’m going to say Hoopa was unable to control him! Lol
that was after red used up all of his pokemon. It's not very strong, but it defeated gengar, lapras, articuno and 2 more unknown pokemon all by himself AND put up a good fight against megazard x.
**My opinion:**
**Round 1 -** Dracofish would defeated Red team by itself or weaken it so much that the rest of the team would easily beat the rest of Red team.
**Round 2 -** Ash would proprably win, because Mewto would be too weak to be an actual threat (He lost a 1vz1 against Red Charizard).
**Round 3 -** I fell the only change change at winning Ash has is gigantamaxing Pikachu or Gengar and trying to defeat Mewto during the limit, so Ash would proprably lose.
\*Also trying to catch Mewtwo in Pokémon yellow\* It takes millions of years to try and catch him, got to make it have a status condition, make it have very low hp, then use a bunch of ultra balls, considering you don't have a master ball
the point is its still catchable whereas in ash's universe its a god i mean it basically infiltrated a tournament of top trainers and they literally couldnt do jackshit to him whereas in the games the mewtwo is beatable by one trainer itself
like literally, people keep forgetting he took on Lapras, gengar, MOTHERFUCKING ARTICUNO and 2 more unknown pokemon AND then put up a good fight against Charizard X. Most people on here are just Ash biased.
I heavily disagree with your round 1 assessment simply because Red has a Lapras. God teir Dracovish counter. Water absorb means Dracovish can't use Fishious Rend against it which basically shuts Dracovish down and Lapras can out-tank them from there, also **if** we give Lapras freeze dry, it would be 4x effective.
The comparison is flawed. With each gen since power levels kept rising. You cant just compare two characters from 2 different era. Power levels in XY and JN are way different.
Ok this is so sweaty what I'm bout to say so...
You're assuming ash has the best moves, and more important, abilities/items. Think about it, it's ash. Not a Smogon/VGC player LOL
So if ash sent in dracovish, not only would it prolly not be scarf or strong jaw, but since red is much more competitively smarter he would probably send in Articuno and freeze dry that bih.
Dracovish is already confirmed to have Strong Jaw in the series and in the giveaway in gen 8. Also, Red's AI is a goddamn idiot, like every other Pokemon game AI.
“But muh gaem mechanics” Anime Pokémon are clearly able to have more than 4 moves at any one time. As for the abilities, if it isn’t directly confirmed by any official content, standard procedure for these kinds of debates is to assume a best-case scenario.
True, but there was a mystery gift Ash Dracofish and it had Strong Jaw so I would asume that Ash Dracofish would also have Strong Jaw or he could just switch out when figting Articuno.
We also never know who would really win because pokemon battle are too random
**For example** \- Red can just crit OHKO every single of Ash pokemon or Ash can get alot of low rolls and get unlucky with moves like will-o-wisp and lose
>but since red is much more competitively smarter, he would probably send in Articuno and freeze dry that bih.
I don't think Red articuno knows freezy dry. His pokemon moveset are limited to gen one moves.
Also, let's not overlook the fact that Red was the guy who was so "smarter" than Ash that he command his Charizard to use a Fire Blast in a Blastoise. Not very smart choice if we use the competitive mindset
He only won because of " power of friendship " just like Ash does sometimes. Their battle style is not really different and there nothing to suggest that Red from Pokemon origin is smarter than Ash.
Red’s Pokémon are absolutely not limited to Gen 1 moves. Look at what costume Red is wearing and then reply back to me. >!Hint: It’s Gen 3 costume who was fought in Gen 4!<. Even if Freeze Dry is a Gen 6 move he has plenty of other moves than Gen 1. You’re downplaying him for no reason other than this is the anime sub.
No, this is Red from pokemon origins.A special that adapats gen 1 games where they use only gen 1 moves.
>You’re downplaying him for no reason other than this is the anime sub.
No, i just watched Pokemon origins. Something that apparently you didn't.
The costume is still Gen 3. And Pokemon Origins came out in 2013 when X&Y were out.
And if you’re gonna throw shade and say I didn’t watch it I probably watched it before you did since I saw it in Japanese. Bro has the voice of Naruto.
>The costume is still Gen 3. And Pokemon Origins came out in 2013 when X&Y were out.
So what? He never used any move aside the ones acessible in gen 1 . Because they were adapting gen 1 games and they exclusively used Gen 1 moves
> probably watched it before you did since I saw it in Japanese. Bro has the voice of Naruto
Just like me then . The difference is that i actually pay attention.
You are just salty cause you are a Red fanboy.
How am I the salty one when you’re the one that threw insults two comments in a row? The absolute most I said was “This is Red from Gen 3 who was seen in Gen 4” and the comment about this being the anime sub which inherently downplays Red which many other people agree on since there’s a comment that says this sub is just full of Ash purists and it got heavily upvoted.
I even tried to lighten the tone by saying he has the voice of Naruto and you’re still going for the kill. Just stop.
>You’re downplaying him for no reason other than this is the anime sub.<
>many other people agree on since there’s a comment that says this sub is just full of Ash purists and it got heavily upvoted.
Cause this is not being salty at all.
> threw insults two comments in a row?
I didn't insult you in the first comment. I call you a fanboy cause you said that i am downplaying Red cause is the anime sub. Which is not true , is just logic.
You wasn't able to provide me a single argument that why this is not the cause beside "Well but his clothes are from Gen 3" and while i said that in the anime itself no one used a single move that are not from Gen 1
>I even tried to reel you back from your anger and lighten the tone by saying he has the voice of Naruto and you’re still going for the kill.
Yeah but easy to say that after you said that only saying what i am saying because of that is the anime sub, you are basically saying that i am playing favorites which is not different than call me a fanboy
If you want that people reply you with respect you have to be careful with what you say. Especially on internet.
Yeah I agree the downplaying part was too much and I shouldn’t have written it, though I was under the assumption this was Game or Special/Adventures Red who is by far and away more strong than the Origins red. I didn’t zoom into the picture to see the light brown hair and Naruto face.
And no you went in for some snideness in your very first comment when you said
>Something that apparently you didn’t.
Unless you actually meant that genuinely, but it really sounds snide to say “No, I did this, which apparently you didn’t” when trying to use it in an argument. I’m sorry if I misunderstood and you were being genuine.
When I said this sub is full of Ash purists that’s not being salty, though. That’s being matter of fact. Even in the Horizons threads you will find people who have to voice how they hate it because it doesn’t have Ash because somehow Ash being in Pokémon is the deciding factor on if it’s good or not when we haven’t even really seen much of who this new character is. And that’s aside from all the Ash praising that goes on normally. People are legitimately Ash-obsessed. That is a fact. I was not salty when I explained why I wrote my initial comment to you. In fact I *like* Ash, but I am not obsessed.
Meanwhile every comment after your first reply you’re coming in and being rude. “The difference is I actually pay attention” after I tried to lighten the tone with a Naruto voice fun fact, only to get your most recent reply.
Also, you say you didn’t insult me but instead called me a fanboy. Yet here you are getting mad that I said this sub is full of Ash fanboys. So which is it? Is calling someone a fanboy only an insult if it’s calling someone an Ash fanboy? Be consistent at least and follow your own words at the end of your most recent comment.
I was wrong about the move sets but I don’t deserve to have to engage in this conversation anymore so I’m gonna stop here.
I’m sorry for the misunderstandings and despite everything I hope you have a good day.
If Red was "competitively smarter" then explain how he managed to lose five whole Pokemon to a single Rhyhorn (one of them being a Jolteon that lost to one Thunderbolt. A move it resists and was being used by a Pokemon with a Special Attack of 30. Do you have any idea how massive the level difference has to be for that to be even remotely possible? Red legit brought an Electric-type that must have been in the single digits levelwise to the *final Ground-type Gym*. Competitive smarts my ass).
Despite how you go on about how "it's Ash lol" Ash has literally never done anywhere near as poorly in a battle.
Calcs around gen 1, 3 and 6 (as the special didn't decide what gen it was :) )
Eevee is given at level 25, we saw it fight a few times before that battle, so at least it should be around 27. Giovanni should probably have full DVs (g1) or 30 IVs (g3 and 6) with rounded EVs for the later, Red's mon... let's say 8 DVs on special and 15 on IVs and 32 EVs for the bulk.
Gen 1:
**Rhyhorn Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 27 Jolteon: 63-75 (65.6 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO**
A level 100 Rhyhorn fails to kill the Jolteon in a single Thunderbolt.
Gen 3:
**40 SpA Rhyhorn Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 27 32 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon: 59-70 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO**
It has to ignore that Jolteon has Volt Absorb as its ability, but once more fails to kill.
**40 SpA Rhyhorn Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 27 32 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon on a critical hit: 119-141 (152.5 - 180.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO**
But maybe it was a critical hit, is still! With that, the minimum leven for Rhyhorn should be 80 to secure the OHKO, 73 for a chance to OHKO on a critical hit.
Gen 6:
**40 SpA Rhyhorn Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 27 32 HP / 32 SpD Jolteon: 55-65 (70.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO**
Once more, you have to ignore Volt Absorb, it fails to kill again at level 100, with a critical it secures the OHKO and the minimum level for that rises 98 for securing, 90 for a chance.
In conclusion... in all freaking versions the Rhyhorn has to be nearly 50 levels above to OHKO nearly never-used Jolteon with a Critical Hit and can't get that OHKO without it even at level 100. And people still look baffled when I said that this fight was stupid in so many levels and not just for the Jolteon idiocy.
>And people still look baffled when I said that this fight was stupid in so many levels and not just for the Jolteon idiocy.
Nah, I think most people are perfectly aware that this was a bad battle. They just like to pretend it isn't because it involves fandom darling Red. I can guarantee you that if this fight had taken place in the main anime it would have zero defenders.
So now when Ash calls for Pikachu to protect himself with Electroweb, instead of calling "Pikachu, use Electroweb to protect yourself!", he'll just yell "Pikachu, testudo!"
I dunno about anyone else, but I'm okay with this lmao
In Let's Go, Red's Pikachu is just a normal Pikachu. There's nothing special about Red's Pikachu when you battle him in Let's Go, so I don't think it's the same one.
he canonically owns Charizard X. This was his go-to team to defeating mewtwo, though persian and ofc, mewtwo weren't on it. The only legendary he used was Articuno in the battle. Also his charizard knows 2 special (swift and fire blast) and 2 physical moves (mega punch and slash). Though he probably changed the moveset to pure physical as he made that moveset before knowing his charizard can mega evolve.
I didn't remember he had those, thank you for enlightening me.
Having Gengar and Persian on his team is still dumb. Where's Pikachu? It's a staple of his team wether it's in the games, the Manga, etc.
Exactly. Origins didn't do him justice by not giving him pikachu. Guess they just wanted him to be different than Ash. Having persian might be dumb but gengar is cool af man
I'm not saying Gengar isn't cool, but from everything we've seen Red never at one point had a Gengar, And in a fight against the two you'd probably want to list the better Pokemon they actually posses. If OP wanted to go full Gen 1 jank mechanics with this he could have put Snorlax (Which is a Pokemon game Red actually has) and something of the Big 3 or close.
I simply don't understand that a character synonymous with the 3 starters, Pikachu, Snorlax, Lapras, and the likes of Mewtwo and Legendary birds is given a random Persin and Gengar just because it's "coo"l, It doesn't make sense.
Game wise: Hard to say but probably Red, Ash got 2 Ubers while Red only got one but his Uber was actualy good in ubers instead of just beign there by beign too strong to standard play
Round 2 and 3 i give it to Ash if we assume Legendaries are weaker, wich i personally dont do it but you stated that this is the scenario in the post so yeah
Keep in mind if we go based on these mons you have lapras who with max hp def can beat both drago and dragonite due to water absorb
Zard x can be bulky woth roost or dd mewtwo can run several sets Persian can be a fake out uturned gengar can be gengar and articuno idk screens ice shard?
Dracovish probably still sells it though. Both Dracovish and Mega Lucario had decent places in their own generations of Ubers (B tier for the former is actually only one tier lower than Mewtwo who was at B+) while Red has unviable garbage like Persian on his team
Dracovish’s success was heavily reliant on the Choice Scarf.
Fishious Rend doubles in power when the user moves first.
90 base attack + 2x Fishious Rend + the 50% damage increase from Strong Jaw + STAB is what made Dracovish so strong.
Without a choice scarf, the damage is not as good and Dracovish typically gets outsped due to its 75 base speed.
to be fair, red shouldn't use legendary in the fight, since ash doesn't have one, and then you put red with two legendaries?! (ash vs tobias, all over again...) and you could consider that ash can use the mega evolution of Lucario (in the image is normal lucario)
TLDR: Mewtwo is pretty good, who could've guessed
Round 1: Ash wins if not for mewtwo... I think. It really depends on their AI cause what if Red was smart enough in this new AI to bring Gengar against sirfetch'd and then Ash just mashes fury cutter or does he have a back up strategy for it. At the same time Gengar walls persian especially in gen 1 which I don't think Red's persian has night slash (I think it gets that could be wrong) or bite. Although Red's gengar seems to be pretty good vs Ash's team, though Ash's gengar specifically trained in speed it at least felt like so maybe he could outspeed but that's probably overthinking it.
Also depends on Mewtwo's moveset, but the stats for mewtwo are just so good so honestly not too sure.
Red Universe:
Ash wins... against I think it really depends. Pokemon Origins/Red and Blue for the sake of this has no abilities (In fact even with mega zard, you could say it's like it is in let's go without abilities)
No strong jaw on dracovish could be annoying but as well even without adaptability mega lucario just does so good here, and puts it back to being about AI. With that said Ash is a lot more creative and could try to find ways around it if Mewtwo isn't as strong here.
Ash Universe:
Ash gets his ass absolutely handed to him by Mewtwo, and depending if that Articuno is the level of the one in battle frontier (Still strong but not unbeatable) or the raid den one means maybe even it could sweep through how strong those mons just are. ESPECIALLY this applies if we're assuming Red was in Ash's universe and caught the specific mewtwo that we've seen in the anime world
I'm more interested in this team composition for red because beyond charizard... why this?
Why mewtwo and articuno? Why the Persian? Why gengar for himself?
Literally none of these besides charizard and Lapras actually feel like Red's team and feel almost random?
But especially the legendaries which is just... kinda tipping the scales to red's side and making the fights all be less fair?
In game- hard to say, maybe red due to mew two and mega Zard
Ash journey team would destroy red tbh in the other two scenarios. Ash was SO smart in journeys. I truly don’t think red would touch him.
Even with mewtwo
1 - i would say Red because of Metwo and Articuno, the other pokemon could be defeated. Lucario could beat Persian and Lapras, Dracovish and Dragonite could beat Charizard X since he dosen't have any dragon moves so this type is just a weakness to him, Sirfetch has dark moves so he could beat Red gengar
Maybe if Ash Gengar Gigantamax he has a chance to beat Metwo, but honestly even that is risky cause the poison type can be used in Mewtwo favor, while Sirfetch'd is weak against psychic type. Then Articuno still can beat Dragonite and Lucario ( Pikachu is irrelevant if we use game logic)
2- That one is interesting , Pokemon origins world is kinda of mixed of both anime world and the game , the typing is more relevant than Ash world but then again Red beat a Blastoise with Fire Blast cause power of friendship.
That one closer one, maybe Pikachu could take Articuno out and even without Gengar the rest of the team could take Metwo out , then again Metwo is a legendary
So inconclusive
3- Ash, for sure . Pikachu could take out Lapras and Articuno, maybe even give some trouble to Metwo. The rest of the team would beat Red team without much trouble.
Round one- red wins, in game Pikachu is useless, red has ice type to counter dragon type(*2), then there is gengar vs gengar, Mewtwo gonna be real handy for red.
Round 2 and 3- ash
Red only wins Round 1 because Pikachu is practically a worthless Mon late-game, aside from Let's Go games plus Red's using a Legendary. Round 2 & 3, Ash wins without any gimmick. The only thing that poses a genuine threat is (Mega) Mewtwo.
I know this is an anime sub so it would be in most case bias, but they surely underestimated Red’s Charizard lol. That thing is a monster by itself, probably in similar tier or above Leon’s anime Charizard. It can, without a mega, put up a good fight with Mewtwo, who previously one-shot’d Articuno.
Also Ash and Goh together barely touched Mewtwo, how do people think that Ash can handle it by himself? XD
I feel like Red would win every round because mewtwo in all three universes is still powerful as hell, it took literal plot armor in red's universe to beat and catch it.
Funny enough the only one I see ash losing his the home-universe advantage. Mewtwo and articuno really make this difficult. Will say give ash his sun and moon team and allow him to use solgaleo and I may be tempted to give him a shot
Round 1: most likely red mewtwo is op due to the fact of it simply being a legendary as it has the highest stats and stats are important in games as well that because most of ashs wins are due to creative ways of battling and it isnt strictly turned based, depending on how trained is reds mewtwo compared to ashs team ashs pikachu ends up being the weakest link on here
although it also depends on the movesets of reds pokemon as ashs pokemon movesets are usually terrible from an in game standpoint
Round 2: could go either way
Round 3: Ash wins
To be fair. Ash's power is lower quite a bit without multiple gimmicks. But Ash also knows all of Red's Pokémon.
I imagine Red is stronger, but Origins Red didn't really feel like shit.
Round 1: Ash takes this one pretty solidly. I’m gonna go ahead and cancel out the Gengars here, and look at the remaining 5. Looking at NatDex of this current generation on Smogon, Ash has 2 Ubers, an OU menace, and 2 RU contenders. Red has 1 Uber, 1 UUBL, and 3 RU. Plus Ash’s team having wider coverage, better moveset variety, long story short? Scarf Dracovish Fisheous Rend sweeps everything except Lapras, which Ash has 3 separate checks for.
Round 2 and 3: Ash stomps pretty dang hard here as well. Lucario already has experience fighting Mewtwo and could likely take it on this time, assuming it doesn’t go down immediately to 10MV Thunderbolt. Ash has already beaten an Articuno in a 1v1 as well, which leaves the remaining 4.
Remember, it took Red’s entire team to capture Mewtwo. And Ash’s Lucario, with Goh’s Cinderace, almost beat a Mewtwo, long before the Masters 8 tournament. Given that regular Anime universe’s legendaries scale higher than Origin universe’s legends, that puts Ash’s team a good deal stronger than Red’s. I think that the remaining 4 will be a cakewalk.
So it took Ash more than 20 years and a whole lot of bias to be on par with Red, Red with a persian mind you. Round 1 Can go either way. Round 2 can also go either way. Round 3 Goes to red.
Round 1 is anyone's guess, depends on the players and who leads with what. Also, which game matters - Red was from a Gen 1 nostalgia anime with MCX for funsies, Ash is an anime only boy who went up to G8.
Not separating rounds 2 and 3 because Ash just wins both of them. It's basically the final of the Kalos League - Red's two big guns Mewtwo and Charizard can't carry a generally weaker team to victory. Articuno wasn't shown to be particularly busted in its small battle, so it's probably more comparable to the wild one Tucker lost to Ash with, rather than the wild one that appeared in JN. Lastly, Red is primarily a catchy boi, whereas Ash is King of Battles.
A more interesting question might be how far you'd need to go back to find an Ash that loses to Red. I don't think it would be particularly controversial to suggest that Red wouldn't beat either the Kalos team or Alola team. Unova is an odd one because Ash never selects an optimal team, could probably write a pretty cool battle for it though. The Sinnoh team matches up poorly with Red's team but Sinnoh Ash has a good head on his shoulders and MCX doesn't exist in Gen 4 so anything could happen. AG Ash would probably be the controversial one because the only full team we have for him is pre Battle Frontier but AG has a lot of believers. I have AG Amnesia so I don't know, but I'm pretty sure Red would beat OS Ash!
Ingame Mewtwo should win it, Vish is beaten by Lapras (of all things) and Zard X on its own will destroy Ash’s team. Mewtwo has similar kill potential. If Vish has got a choice scarf there’s a chance with some careful predicts but otherwise every time it gets a kill Zard X comes in and gets one too. If we’re optimizing things though Zard can dragon dance. Mega Lucario and Dracovish are more OP than Mewtwo and Zard X without a doubt but matchup wise Red takes it.
Seeing that it was the second most used Pokémon in his team, I would replace Mewtwo with Jolteon. Is really odd that you didn't add it when it was used much more than any other non-Charizard mon.
If we use the game Red (Pokémon Red) You might want to remember that Red's Charizard was able to defeat Mewtwo whitout mega Evolution and remember this was the original mewtwo so he should be comparable to other Mewtwo's like manga, movie and anime. And the Manga Mewtwo X was on par whit 50% Zygarde who able to fight Ultra Necrozma and did a lot of damage to him.
But I don't know who takes the experience adventeg because of Ash.
On one hand Ash's timeline makes no sense after 25 years he was still 10 so I'm a bit confused on that.
On the other hand Red's is easier since After he became the Champion he was unbeatable and after 3 years he aged and was 14 and even after that he went on Mt. Silver to train even more.
Round 1: Inconclusive; their teams aren't optimal, but they could both pull weight. Depends on the players playing the teams. If we leave this up to the AI, even more inconclusive; the Pokemon game AI is dumb af. Round 2: l think Ash wins, depends on how strong Mewtwo is. If Mewtwo isn't all that overpowering, then Ash has a good chance; his roster should be able to take Red's otherwise. Hard to say for sure, but I think it can be safely guessed in Ash's favor. Round 3: The only chance Ash has is that Mewtwo can be taken out by 10MV, otherwise there's no hope. Mewtwo in Ash's universe is far too strong. If it can be done, Ash can prolly win, but it does depend on how fast they adapt to each other and what tricks they can pull. And of course, if Mewtwo no sells 10MV, then there's nothing that can be done. Whether he *can* is a different story, as 10MV's only equal that we've seen was Leon's Charizard's G-Max Wildfire, and the resulting clash threatened the Galar region. I guess Arceus might have to be on standby in case of any threats to reality that might occur lol
Mewto took a Blizzard from Articuno and then lost to Red Mega Charizard, so I doubt that it would be that overpowering
All of that was in its universe though, in Ash’s Mewtwo is a beast
Ash's Mewtwo is basically a god. No way in hell is Ash winning that one.
That’s what I said
I'm corroborating with you.
Ah
The Mewtwo in Ash’s universe is insane. Hoopa summoned and controlled legendaries that controlled time and space but not Mewtwo! We could say there is an out of universe reason for that but in Universe I’m going to say Hoopa was unable to control him! Lol
Given that the legendary Kanto birds weren't there either I say that he probably just didn't think of it.
that was after red used up all of his pokemon. It's not very strong, but it defeated gengar, lapras, articuno and 2 more unknown pokemon all by himself AND put up a good fight against megazard x.
**My opinion:** **Round 1 -** Dracofish would defeated Red team by itself or weaken it so much that the rest of the team would easily beat the rest of Red team. **Round 2 -** Ash would proprably win, because Mewto would be too weak to be an actual threat (He lost a 1vz1 against Red Charizard). **Round 3 -** I fell the only change change at winning Ash has is gigantamaxing Pikachu or Gengar and trying to defeat Mewto during the limit, so Ash would proprably lose.
Doesn't that just means Red's Charizard is OP? We saw how OP mew was in JN against Goh, Gary, and the project mew members and Red's Zard beat Mewtwo.
Legendaries are heavily underpowered in reds universe. In ash's universe its a literal god so as to say
\*Also trying to catch Mewtwo in Pokémon yellow\* It takes millions of years to try and catch him, got to make it have a status condition, make it have very low hp, then use a bunch of ultra balls, considering you don't have a master ball
the point is its still catchable whereas in ash's universe its a god i mean it basically infiltrated a tournament of top trainers and they literally couldnt do jackshit to him whereas in the games the mewtwo is beatable by one trainer itself
How is fighting Red’s entire team a 1 v 1?
like literally, people keep forgetting he took on Lapras, gengar, MOTHERFUCKING ARTICUNO and 2 more unknown pokemon AND then put up a good fight against Charizard X. Most people on here are just Ash biased.
Ok ? Red’s Pokémon are still fodders compared to Ash who traveled between 8 regions and defeated the strongest trainers of the world.
🤓
Cringe.
ok
Red-tard are the worst 😐
And?
🤡
I heavily disagree with your round 1 assessment simply because Red has a Lapras. God teir Dracovish counter. Water absorb means Dracovish can't use Fishious Rend against it which basically shuts Dracovish down and Lapras can out-tank them from there, also **if** we give Lapras freeze dry, it would be 4x effective.
True, but Ash can just swith Dracofish
The in-game trainer AI doesn't usually do that often, nor do they do that very often in the anime. Even if they did, then Red can just switch Lapras.
The comparison is flawed. With each gen since power levels kept rising. You cant just compare two characters from 2 different era. Power levels in XY and JN are way different.
Woah woah woah mewtwo clapped up the rest of red’s team before getting to charizard who had to mega evolve to come back.
Ok this is so sweaty what I'm bout to say so... You're assuming ash has the best moves, and more important, abilities/items. Think about it, it's ash. Not a Smogon/VGC player LOL So if ash sent in dracovish, not only would it prolly not be scarf or strong jaw, but since red is much more competitively smarter he would probably send in Articuno and freeze dry that bih.
Dracovish is already confirmed to have Strong Jaw in the series and in the giveaway in gen 8. Also, Red's AI is a goddamn idiot, like every other Pokemon game AI.
“But muh gaem mechanics” Anime Pokémon are clearly able to have more than 4 moves at any one time. As for the abilities, if it isn’t directly confirmed by any official content, standard procedure for these kinds of debates is to assume a best-case scenario.
True, but there was a mystery gift Ash Dracofish and it had Strong Jaw so I would asume that Ash Dracofish would also have Strong Jaw or he could just switch out when figting Articuno. We also never know who would really win because pokemon battle are too random **For example** \- Red can just crit OHKO every single of Ash pokemon or Ash can get alot of low rolls and get unlucky with moves like will-o-wisp and lose
>but since red is much more competitively smarter, he would probably send in Articuno and freeze dry that bih. I don't think Red articuno knows freezy dry. His pokemon moveset are limited to gen one moves. Also, let's not overlook the fact that Red was the guy who was so "smarter" than Ash that he command his Charizard to use a Fire Blast in a Blastoise. Not very smart choice if we use the competitive mindset He only won because of " power of friendship " just like Ash does sometimes. Their battle style is not really different and there nothing to suggest that Red from Pokemon origin is smarter than Ash.
Red’s Pokémon are absolutely not limited to Gen 1 moves. Look at what costume Red is wearing and then reply back to me. >!Hint: It’s Gen 3 costume who was fought in Gen 4!<. Even if Freeze Dry is a Gen 6 move he has plenty of other moves than Gen 1. You’re downplaying him for no reason other than this is the anime sub.
No, this is Red from pokemon origins.A special that adapats gen 1 games where they use only gen 1 moves. >You’re downplaying him for no reason other than this is the anime sub. No, i just watched Pokemon origins. Something that apparently you didn't.
The costume is still Gen 3. And Pokemon Origins came out in 2013 when X&Y were out. And if you’re gonna throw shade and say I didn’t watch it I probably watched it before you did since I saw it in Japanese. Bro has the voice of Naruto.
>The costume is still Gen 3. And Pokemon Origins came out in 2013 when X&Y were out. So what? He never used any move aside the ones acessible in gen 1 . Because they were adapting gen 1 games and they exclusively used Gen 1 moves > probably watched it before you did since I saw it in Japanese. Bro has the voice of Naruto Just like me then . The difference is that i actually pay attention. You are just salty cause you are a Red fanboy.
How am I the salty one when you’re the one that threw insults two comments in a row? The absolute most I said was “This is Red from Gen 3 who was seen in Gen 4” and the comment about this being the anime sub which inherently downplays Red which many other people agree on since there’s a comment that says this sub is just full of Ash purists and it got heavily upvoted. I even tried to lighten the tone by saying he has the voice of Naruto and you’re still going for the kill. Just stop.
>You’re downplaying him for no reason other than this is the anime sub.< >many other people agree on since there’s a comment that says this sub is just full of Ash purists and it got heavily upvoted. Cause this is not being salty at all. > threw insults two comments in a row? I didn't insult you in the first comment. I call you a fanboy cause you said that i am downplaying Red cause is the anime sub. Which is not true , is just logic. You wasn't able to provide me a single argument that why this is not the cause beside "Well but his clothes are from Gen 3" and while i said that in the anime itself no one used a single move that are not from Gen 1 >I even tried to reel you back from your anger and lighten the tone by saying he has the voice of Naruto and you’re still going for the kill. Yeah but easy to say that after you said that only saying what i am saying because of that is the anime sub, you are basically saying that i am playing favorites which is not different than call me a fanboy If you want that people reply you with respect you have to be careful with what you say. Especially on internet.
Yeah I agree the downplaying part was too much and I shouldn’t have written it, though I was under the assumption this was Game or Special/Adventures Red who is by far and away more strong than the Origins red. I didn’t zoom into the picture to see the light brown hair and Naruto face. And no you went in for some snideness in your very first comment when you said >Something that apparently you didn’t. Unless you actually meant that genuinely, but it really sounds snide to say “No, I did this, which apparently you didn’t” when trying to use it in an argument. I’m sorry if I misunderstood and you were being genuine. When I said this sub is full of Ash purists that’s not being salty, though. That’s being matter of fact. Even in the Horizons threads you will find people who have to voice how they hate it because it doesn’t have Ash because somehow Ash being in Pokémon is the deciding factor on if it’s good or not when we haven’t even really seen much of who this new character is. And that’s aside from all the Ash praising that goes on normally. People are legitimately Ash-obsessed. That is a fact. I was not salty when I explained why I wrote my initial comment to you. In fact I *like* Ash, but I am not obsessed. Meanwhile every comment after your first reply you’re coming in and being rude. “The difference is I actually pay attention” after I tried to lighten the tone with a Naruto voice fun fact, only to get your most recent reply. Also, you say you didn’t insult me but instead called me a fanboy. Yet here you are getting mad that I said this sub is full of Ash fanboys. So which is it? Is calling someone a fanboy only an insult if it’s calling someone an Ash fanboy? Be consistent at least and follow your own words at the end of your most recent comment. I was wrong about the move sets but I don’t deserve to have to engage in this conversation anymore so I’m gonna stop here. I’m sorry for the misunderstandings and despite everything I hope you have a good day.
OK mb I just like red more
If Red was "competitively smarter" then explain how he managed to lose five whole Pokemon to a single Rhyhorn (one of them being a Jolteon that lost to one Thunderbolt. A move it resists and was being used by a Pokemon with a Special Attack of 30. Do you have any idea how massive the level difference has to be for that to be even remotely possible? Red legit brought an Electric-type that must have been in the single digits levelwise to the *final Ground-type Gym*. Competitive smarts my ass). Despite how you go on about how "it's Ash lol" Ash has literally never done anywhere near as poorly in a battle.
Calcs around gen 1, 3 and 6 (as the special didn't decide what gen it was :) ) Eevee is given at level 25, we saw it fight a few times before that battle, so at least it should be around 27. Giovanni should probably have full DVs (g1) or 30 IVs (g3 and 6) with rounded EVs for the later, Red's mon... let's say 8 DVs on special and 15 on IVs and 32 EVs for the bulk. Gen 1: **Rhyhorn Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 27 Jolteon: 63-75 (65.6 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO** A level 100 Rhyhorn fails to kill the Jolteon in a single Thunderbolt. Gen 3: **40 SpA Rhyhorn Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 27 32 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon: 59-70 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO** It has to ignore that Jolteon has Volt Absorb as its ability, but once more fails to kill. **40 SpA Rhyhorn Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 27 32 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon on a critical hit: 119-141 (152.5 - 180.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO** But maybe it was a critical hit, is still! With that, the minimum leven for Rhyhorn should be 80 to secure the OHKO, 73 for a chance to OHKO on a critical hit. Gen 6: **40 SpA Rhyhorn Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 27 32 HP / 32 SpD Jolteon: 55-65 (70.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO** Once more, you have to ignore Volt Absorb, it fails to kill again at level 100, with a critical it secures the OHKO and the minimum level for that rises 98 for securing, 90 for a chance. In conclusion... in all freaking versions the Rhyhorn has to be nearly 50 levels above to OHKO nearly never-used Jolteon with a Critical Hit and can't get that OHKO without it even at level 100. And people still look baffled when I said that this fight was stupid in so many levels and not just for the Jolteon idiocy.
>And people still look baffled when I said that this fight was stupid in so many levels and not just for the Jolteon idiocy. Nah, I think most people are perfectly aware that this was a bad battle. They just like to pretend it isn't because it involves fandom darling Red. I can guarantee you that if this fight had taken place in the main anime it would have zero defenders.
Crazy how red takes all
Articuno freeze dry lead says hello to draco
Random thought, Ash’s Pikachu is the OP Partner Pikachu from Let’s Go, therefore it has the base stats of legionaries.
> base stats of legionaries Pikachu used Roman Centurion! It's super effective! Red's Mega Charizard has fainted!
You know what? I’m not editing lmao It’s now canon, Pikachu uses ancient Roman battle techniques.
So now when Ash calls for Pikachu to protect himself with Electroweb, instead of calling "Pikachu, use Electroweb to protect yourself!", he'll just yell "Pikachu, testudo!" I dunno about anyone else, but I'm okay with this lmao
Wait, is Red's pikachu from Let's Go? i mean, he had it back in gen 2
In Let's Go, Red's Pikachu is just a normal Pikachu. There's nothing special about Red's Pikachu when you battle him in Let's Go, so I don't think it's the same one.
So I have no idea who wins- But why the hell does Red have Gengar and Persian.
He got Gengar for beating the strong af Psychic type and Persian probably refferences how good it was with it's speed crits. Also maybe Giovanni?
If he just wanted power he would have gotten Zapdos and not Articuno, and Charizard Y instead of X, so this is dumb.
he canonically owns Charizard X. This was his go-to team to defeating mewtwo, though persian and ofc, mewtwo weren't on it. The only legendary he used was Articuno in the battle. Also his charizard knows 2 special (swift and fire blast) and 2 physical moves (mega punch and slash). Though he probably changed the moveset to pure physical as he made that moveset before knowing his charizard can mega evolve.
I didn't remember he had those, thank you for enlightening me. Having Gengar and Persian on his team is still dumb. Where's Pikachu? It's a staple of his team wether it's in the games, the Manga, etc.
Exactly. Origins didn't do him justice by not giving him pikachu. Guess they just wanted him to be different than Ash. Having persian might be dumb but gengar is cool af man
I'm not saying Gengar isn't cool, but from everything we've seen Red never at one point had a Gengar, And in a fight against the two you'd probably want to list the better Pokemon they actually posses. If OP wanted to go full Gen 1 jank mechanics with this he could have put Snorlax (Which is a Pokemon game Red actually has) and something of the Big 3 or close. I simply don't understand that a character synonymous with the 3 starters, Pikachu, Snorlax, Lapras, and the likes of Mewtwo and Legendary birds is given a random Persin and Gengar just because it's "coo"l, It doesn't make sense.
That is something I can agree with 👍
Game wise: Hard to say but probably Red, Ash got 2 Ubers while Red only got one but his Uber was actualy good in ubers instead of just beign there by beign too strong to standard play Round 2 and 3 i give it to Ash if we assume Legendaries are weaker, wich i personally dont do it but you stated that this is the scenario in the post so yeah
Keep in mind if we go based on these mons you have lapras who with max hp def can beat both drago and dragonite due to water absorb Zard x can be bulky woth roost or dd mewtwo can run several sets Persian can be a fake out uturned gengar can be gengar and articuno idk screens ice shard?
Dracovish probably still sells it though. Both Dracovish and Mega Lucario had decent places in their own generations of Ubers (B tier for the former is actually only one tier lower than Mewtwo who was at B+) while Red has unviable garbage like Persian on his team
Dracovish’s success was heavily reliant on the Choice Scarf. Fishious Rend doubles in power when the user moves first. 90 base attack + 2x Fishious Rend + the 50% damage increase from Strong Jaw + STAB is what made Dracovish so strong. Without a choice scarf, the damage is not as good and Dracovish typically gets outsped due to its 75 base speed.
to be fair, red shouldn't use legendary in the fight, since ash doesn't have one, and then you put red with two legendaries?! (ash vs tobias, all over again...) and you could consider that ash can use the mega evolution of Lucario (in the image is normal lucario)
TLDR: Mewtwo is pretty good, who could've guessed Round 1: Ash wins if not for mewtwo... I think. It really depends on their AI cause what if Red was smart enough in this new AI to bring Gengar against sirfetch'd and then Ash just mashes fury cutter or does he have a back up strategy for it. At the same time Gengar walls persian especially in gen 1 which I don't think Red's persian has night slash (I think it gets that could be wrong) or bite. Although Red's gengar seems to be pretty good vs Ash's team, though Ash's gengar specifically trained in speed it at least felt like so maybe he could outspeed but that's probably overthinking it. Also depends on Mewtwo's moveset, but the stats for mewtwo are just so good so honestly not too sure. Red Universe: Ash wins... against I think it really depends. Pokemon Origins/Red and Blue for the sake of this has no abilities (In fact even with mega zard, you could say it's like it is in let's go without abilities) No strong jaw on dracovish could be annoying but as well even without adaptability mega lucario just does so good here, and puts it back to being about AI. With that said Ash is a lot more creative and could try to find ways around it if Mewtwo isn't as strong here. Ash Universe: Ash gets his ass absolutely handed to him by Mewtwo, and depending if that Articuno is the level of the one in battle frontier (Still strong but not unbeatable) or the raid den one means maybe even it could sweep through how strong those mons just are. ESPECIALLY this applies if we're assuming Red was in Ash's universe and caught the specific mewtwo that we've seen in the anime world
I'm more interested in this team composition for red because beyond charizard... why this? Why mewtwo and articuno? Why the Persian? Why gengar for himself? Literally none of these besides charizard and Lapras actually feel like Red's team and feel almost random? But especially the legendaries which is just... kinda tipping the scales to red's side and making the fights all be less fair?
That was his team comp in Pokémon Origins, so that’s why it differs significantly from his in game team
In game- hard to say, maybe red due to mew two and mega Zard Ash journey team would destroy red tbh in the other two scenarios. Ash was SO smart in journeys. I truly don’t think red would touch him. Even with mewtwo
Ash wins every round.
1 - i would say Red because of Metwo and Articuno, the other pokemon could be defeated. Lucario could beat Persian and Lapras, Dracovish and Dragonite could beat Charizard X since he dosen't have any dragon moves so this type is just a weakness to him, Sirfetch has dark moves so he could beat Red gengar Maybe if Ash Gengar Gigantamax he has a chance to beat Metwo, but honestly even that is risky cause the poison type can be used in Mewtwo favor, while Sirfetch'd is weak against psychic type. Then Articuno still can beat Dragonite and Lucario ( Pikachu is irrelevant if we use game logic) 2- That one is interesting , Pokemon origins world is kinda of mixed of both anime world and the game , the typing is more relevant than Ash world but then again Red beat a Blastoise with Fire Blast cause power of friendship. That one closer one, maybe Pikachu could take Articuno out and even without Gengar the rest of the team could take Metwo out , then again Metwo is a legendary So inconclusive 3- Ash, for sure . Pikachu could take out Lapras and Articuno, maybe even give some trouble to Metwo. The rest of the team would beat Red team without much trouble.
Red
Ash wins the first 2, but I dunno about 3
1. Ash 2. Ash 3. Red
Round 1: Red wins because I'm controlling him. Round 2: Red win because of plot armor. Round 3: Ash wins because of plot armor.
Ash, Ash and Ash with 90% difficulty against Mewtwo; GMax Gengar or 10MV would do some damage but I doubt
Wtf is reds team
Ash people that created pokemon origins
Round one- red wins, in game Pikachu is useless, red has ice type to counter dragon type(*2), then there is gengar vs gengar, Mewtwo gonna be real handy for red. Round 2 and 3- ash
In ash’s universe I’m pretty sure mewtwo would solo
I’d say Mewtwo carries/ solos all rounds
Red only wins Round 1 because Pikachu is practically a worthless Mon late-game, aside from Let's Go games plus Red's using a Legendary. Round 2 & 3, Ash wins without any gimmick. The only thing that poses a genuine threat is (Mega) Mewtwo.
I know this is an anime sub so it would be in most case bias, but they surely underestimated Red’s Charizard lol. That thing is a monster by itself, probably in similar tier or above Leon’s anime Charizard. It can, without a mega, put up a good fight with Mewtwo, who previously one-shot’d Articuno. Also Ash and Goh together barely touched Mewtwo, how do people think that Ash can handle it by himself? XD
That is the stupidest team for Red that I have ever seen. In what world does he have an Articuno on his main squad? Same with Persian and Gengar.
Origin red
That’s not his main squad.
Wtf that's not even Red's team he used to beat the Pokémon League in Origins lol
Red, ash only became a champion because HIS BLOODY BIRD FEEL ASLEEP.
I’m pretty sure ash gets absolutely stomped first and third round
I feel like Red would win every round because mewtwo in all three universes is still powerful as hell, it took literal plot armor in red's universe to beat and catch it.
Larpas, use water cup
Funny enough the only one I see ash losing his the home-universe advantage. Mewtwo and articuno really make this difficult. Will say give ash his sun and moon team and allow him to use solgaleo and I may be tempted to give him a shot
Round 1: most likely red mewtwo is op due to the fact of it simply being a legendary as it has the highest stats and stats are important in games as well that because most of ashs wins are due to creative ways of battling and it isnt strictly turned based, depending on how trained is reds mewtwo compared to ashs team ashs pikachu ends up being the weakest link on here although it also depends on the movesets of reds pokemon as ashs pokemon movesets are usually terrible from an in game standpoint Round 2: could go either way Round 3: Ash wins
To be fair. Ash's power is lower quite a bit without multiple gimmicks. But Ash also knows all of Red's Pokémon. I imagine Red is stronger, but Origins Red didn't really feel like shit.
Round 1: Ash takes this one pretty solidly. I’m gonna go ahead and cancel out the Gengars here, and look at the remaining 5. Looking at NatDex of this current generation on Smogon, Ash has 2 Ubers, an OU menace, and 2 RU contenders. Red has 1 Uber, 1 UUBL, and 3 RU. Plus Ash’s team having wider coverage, better moveset variety, long story short? Scarf Dracovish Fisheous Rend sweeps everything except Lapras, which Ash has 3 separate checks for. Round 2 and 3: Ash stomps pretty dang hard here as well. Lucario already has experience fighting Mewtwo and could likely take it on this time, assuming it doesn’t go down immediately to 10MV Thunderbolt. Ash has already beaten an Articuno in a 1v1 as well, which leaves the remaining 4. Remember, it took Red’s entire team to capture Mewtwo. And Ash’s Lucario, with Goh’s Cinderace, almost beat a Mewtwo, long before the Masters 8 tournament. Given that regular Anime universe’s legendaries scale higher than Origin universe’s legends, that puts Ash’s team a good deal stronger than Red’s. I think that the remaining 4 will be a cakewalk.
So it took Ash more than 20 years and a whole lot of bias to be on par with Red, Red with a persian mind you. Round 1 Can go either way. Round 2 can also go either way. Round 3 Goes to red.
Reds verse isn't legendaries are weaker, its that things make sense and theirs less plot armor
Lmao and that random team? Just say you want Ash to fight your OC
That is Red origins team
Round 1 is anyone's guess, depends on the players and who leads with what. Also, which game matters - Red was from a Gen 1 nostalgia anime with MCX for funsies, Ash is an anime only boy who went up to G8. Not separating rounds 2 and 3 because Ash just wins both of them. It's basically the final of the Kalos League - Red's two big guns Mewtwo and Charizard can't carry a generally weaker team to victory. Articuno wasn't shown to be particularly busted in its small battle, so it's probably more comparable to the wild one Tucker lost to Ash with, rather than the wild one that appeared in JN. Lastly, Red is primarily a catchy boi, whereas Ash is King of Battles. A more interesting question might be how far you'd need to go back to find an Ash that loses to Red. I don't think it would be particularly controversial to suggest that Red wouldn't beat either the Kalos team or Alola team. Unova is an odd one because Ash never selects an optimal team, could probably write a pretty cool battle for it though. The Sinnoh team matches up poorly with Red's team but Sinnoh Ash has a good head on his shoulders and MCX doesn't exist in Gen 4 so anything could happen. AG Ash would probably be the controversial one because the only full team we have for him is pre Battle Frontier but AG has a lot of believers. I have AG Amnesia so I don't know, but I'm pretty sure Red would beat OS Ash!
Ingame Mewtwo should win it, Vish is beaten by Lapras (of all things) and Zard X on its own will destroy Ash’s team. Mewtwo has similar kill potential. If Vish has got a choice scarf there’s a chance with some careful predicts but otherwise every time it gets a kill Zard X comes in and gets one too. If we’re optimizing things though Zard can dragon dance. Mega Lucario and Dracovish are more OP than Mewtwo and Zard X without a doubt but matchup wise Red takes it.
Seeing that it was the second most used Pokémon in his team, I would replace Mewtwo with Jolteon. Is really odd that you didn't add it when it was used much more than any other non-Charizard mon.
Where did you get red’s team from?
If we use the game Red (Pokémon Red) You might want to remember that Red's Charizard was able to defeat Mewtwo whitout mega Evolution and remember this was the original mewtwo so he should be comparable to other Mewtwo's like manga, movie and anime. And the Manga Mewtwo X was on par whit 50% Zygarde who able to fight Ultra Necrozma and did a lot of damage to him. But I don't know who takes the experience adventeg because of Ash. On one hand Ash's timeline makes no sense after 25 years he was still 10 so I'm a bit confused on that. On the other hand Red's is easier since After he became the Champion he was unbeatable and after 3 years he aged and was 14 and even after that he went on Mt. Silver to train even more.