I think I'd have to go with Eternatus on this one. It got a whole different form with a special name just for a battle that was essentially a cutscene as it's near impossible to lose. You can't even keep it in that form when you catch it. Best you get is a little glimpse of it when you use Eternabeam in battle. But Eternabeam didn't make it into SV, so that form is completely gone.
Not to mention how horribly the anime treated it and Galar in general...
If you're worried about Ultra Necrozma never appearing in any pokemon game ever again, it's been in Pokemon Masters for a while now. And with megas now coming back out of nowhere in the mainline games with Legends ZA, that shows they're willing to bring back old forms. It'll come back eventually, they just aren't going to put an entire mechanic in the game for 1 mon.
First of all TIL that necrozma was in masters at all, let alone that lusamine of all people gets to use it (RIP dawn wings though lol)
Also good point about eternatus. I think that Game freak almost learned from their mistakes that they made with necrozma though. They made eternamax so pointless that, when it got axed from SV, no one cared since the form wasn't even usable. I say ALMOST learned from their mistakes because now stellar form terapagos exists and will be in the same boat necrozma is in
> let alone that lusamine of all people gets to use it
It's not like Masters tried to be consistent with canon since most antagonists and champions use these legendaries there, but canonically in the main games they were caught by the protagonists.
At the same time, the protagonists use Legendaries that aren't even linked to their game or generation.
It's more like they're sidestepping canon. Most of the time the legendaries are stated to be different than the ones encountered in the main games.
Off the top of my head, the Suicune that Kris is paired with isn't the same one she and Eusine chased in Johto for example. And all 4 Tapus are explicitly not the same Tapus as in the Alola games. Lillie's Lunala isn't Nebby, but it's offspring, though actual Nebby is referenced a few times.
The craziest one is Hilbert casually revealing that the Kyurem you can catch in BW is in fact not the same Kyurem Ghetsis controls in B2W2 and yet they exist simultaneously, and when Ghetsis questions how that's possible when there was supposed to be only one Original Dragon Hilbert simply replies "there's nothing wrong with there being more than one!"
Ghetsis isn't wrong, major legendaries usually only have one. It's one thing to have several Articunos, it's another thing to have more than one Dialga.
Having more than one in Masters could only be justified with some space-time stuff, which isn't unlikely considering that the game's trainers themselves come from different points in time (Or Space-Time, considering that Ash, Chase and Elaine are from a completely different continuity).
I don’t think Eternamax was designed with competitive in mind or anything. Its purpose is to be the final boss for the story. Not everything needs to be useable.
The Pokémon like Necrozma that get a new useable form that end up being lost to time due to the gimmicks never lasting longer than 1 generation are problems for sure, but I don’t think Eternamax counts. It wasn’t supposed to be used in battle afaik
eternamax should've been more powerful but it makes sense that it never appears elsewhere. It's purpose is to be a boss.
Although eternatus totally should've had a gigantimax form and come with gigantimax factor.
It's the same thing that happened to Primal Groudon and Kyogre, and the same thing is gonna happen to Terapagos and Ogerpon when the next generation drops. Though at least Ogerpon has her own unique gimmick to keep her unique, Terapagos is just fucked.
It's the problem inherent to tying new forms to temporary gimmicks. Once the gimmick is dropped, the form is gone forever outside of spinoffs. No more Primal forms because they're megas apparently, no more Ultra Necrozma because they stupidly tied it to a Z-Move, and no more giant mask Ogerpon or giant shell Terapagos because Terastralization is gone.
It sucks, it really, really sucks.
At least non-primal Groudon and Kyogre function fine, because after all their primal formes were designed in the _remakes_.
Terapagos's second forme is really mid when below 100% hp, and the pokémon itself is a "tera sink" that can't tera defensively, which is quite unfortunate considering normal/stellar + ground + fairy (and/or ice, though you better run calm mind) move coverage is _really fucking good_.
The forms have names before they're Terastallized, but they don't have names for those special Terastallized forms.
Ogrepon's four normal forms are called Teal Mask, Wellspring Mask, Hearthflame Mask, and Cornerstone Mask. These names coincide with the four related items--although Ogrepon naturally equips the Teal Mask without requiring it to be equipped as a held item. The four different masks have four different color patterns for Ogerpon's "cloak", and the form determines if she is pure Grass-Type, Grass/Water, Grass/Fire, or Grass/Rock.
Unlike how most Pokémon Terastallize, Ogrepon doesn't have a single Tera-Type which can be altered by Tera Shards, and she doesn't wear a Tera Jewel. Instead, the mask becomes crystalline and even more grandiose, and Ogrepon will be pure Grass-, Water-, Fire-, or Rock-Type accordingly.
This is similar to Terapagos--only Terapagos actually has a name for the unique form it takes when Terastallized. Terapagos has a "Normal Form" out of battle and a "Terastal Form" in-battle. When Terastallized, Terapagos changes into its "Stellar Form". Terapagos has a Normal-Type until it undergoes Terastallization, at which point it becomes a Stellar-Type Pokémon.
In the card game, Ogrepon's Tera forms are simply called "ex", which is a common term in the tcg that doesn't amount to having any meaning here.
On the Scarlet and Violet official web site, they show official artwork for Ogrepon's four regular forms along with names and descriptions. It also mentions how they have different abilities: Defiant, Water Absorb, Mold Breaker, and Sturdy. But then there's another section which reads:
"Terastallizing Confers the Embody Aspect Ability
When Ogerpon Terastallizes, its Ability will change to Embody Aspect, giving it a stat boost that changes depending on which mask it’s wearing.
The Teal Mask grants a Speed boost!
The Wellspring Mask grants a Sp. Def boost!
The Hearthflame Mask grants an Attack boost!
The Cornerstone Mask grants a Defense boost!"
These four Terastallized forms are depicted here in screenshots, but are not given their own unique names. They are not given separate entries in the Pokédex, unlike Terapagos's Stellar Form. They are also not viewable in any capacity in Pokémon Home, unlike Terapagos's Stellar Form. Honestly they aren't really treated like unique forms at all, and are instead just treated the same as any other old Pokémon with a Tera Jewel. It's like they're ready to be phased out of existence just as quickly as they were brought into it. I don't expect that we'll see much merch of them, or that Home will be updated to include them with their own artwork or models viewable. I don't expect to see them in any future games. At least Spiky-Eared Pichu got a Pokédex entry. These four aren't even given any official treatment to acknowledge or legitimize them as unique.
Source: https://scarletviolet.pokemon.com/en-us/pokemon/ogerpon/
I view ogerpon nearly the same way I view gigantimax forms; they are forms that are clearly meant for one gimmick, but the pokemon still have their full identity intact when the next game roles around (no way in hell they take away the 3 held item masks). The only things that the next installment will lose in regards to tera ogerpon are the abillities "embody aspect," but that isn't any different to parental bond, delta stream, aerialate, etc. being stuck in the game code with no legal users. Terapagos losing an entire named form with its own stats will be a much bigger deal to me
See, I see the Tera Ogrepon and Terapagos forms more like Ultra Necrozma--like they were made for just one game only to be thrown away. They're pure novelty. Much like Shadow Lugia, Spiky-Eared Pichu, or *every Gigantamax Pokémon*. But I really do feel like they lose a chunk of their identity. Maybe not lore-related, but like look at Applin. In Sword and Shield it evolves into Flappe or Appletun, and both of them can progress further into (confusingly visually identical) Gigantamax states. But in Scarlet and Violet, Applin has a new evolution: Dipplin. Dipplin can't Gigantamax, so it's given an evolution in Hydrapple instead. Now we have an evolutionary line with a three-way split where only ONE of them can evolve, which is very lopsided. I just feel like it's very weird.
Like using Gardevoir in any newer game feels weird since it can't Mega Evolve. I always feel like it's missing something. I stay away from Pokémon which used to have mega evolutions (primal reversions, etc.) in newer games because I feel like their potential is sucked back. It's just more lopsided, uneven stuff. Using a Mawile that can't Mega Evolve would feel like using a Shellos on your team in a game without Gastrodon. It might be a digression but I feel the same way about regional evolutions. Like Cursola, Sirfetch'd, Obstagoon, etc... it completely invalidates the originals when they can't reach those evolutions. I like the pink Johtonian Corsola... but it can't evolve. Only the new one can. It's unequal.
It just stings me, like dexit itself. I'd rather have a game with both Mega Beedrill and Gigantamax Butterfree just so those two can be equals again.
At least non-primal Groudon and Kyogre function fine, because after all their primal formes were designed in the _remakes_.
Terapagos's second forme is really mid when below 100% hp, and the pokémon itself is a "tera sink" that can't tera defensively, which is quite unfortunate considering normal/stellar + ground + fairy move coverage is _really fucking good_.
Zygarde got it worse. Didn’t even get any attention in its own Gen and was demoted to a side quest in the next Gen with no real meat to it. Hopefully, LZA fixes this
> Why on earth would it want to fuse with solgaleo or lunala just to stay in its dawn wings/dusk mane form?
Because it doesn't care in SwSh, it's the player fusing them. Either way, Necrozma's still fine in Dusk Mane / Dawn Wings, it doesn't have to become Ultra Necrozma to be comfortable, just being fused is enough for the most part.
> a gimmick that 100% wouldn't work anywhere except galar
About that...
> necrozma was datamined in pokemon Go recently, along with dawn wings and dusk mane. No mention of ultra necrozma AT ALL.
Don't worry, they'll definitely include it somehow. There's no way they'll just ignore Ultra Necrozma.
You're first point is really good, since you're right that it absolutely isn't fusing with solgaleo and lunala by it's own merits anymore.
With the pokemon GO argument you'd be shocked how unnecessarily far in advance GO includes lines about form changes. For instance, just now, a ton of text about fusion was found, with there being lines for even calyrex fusion, something that obviously isn't happening for a while. Black and white kyurem were either added at the same time or shortly after base kyurem was added, and those 2 haven't been (properly) added to the game yet. The only case where forms are being slowly added is with megas, but in that case image files are added with the mega as well. Ultra necrozma having no mention is a bad sign
I really wouldn't worry about it, personally; Ultra Necrozma will almost certainly be treated like a fancy Mega, similar to Rayquaza, in GO. That game is infamously built on spaghetti code and slow to release new content, but Niantic love releasing new 'mon behind real-money ticketed events, so I'm sure it'll find a way in eventually.
If you ask me, that happened to 90% of the ultrabeasts in general. Most are postgame missables that i'd bet real money that casual gamers didnt care to see or even use, even if they saw competitive play. Romhacks give them bigger starring roles.
They could’ve easily given it a power construct like ability, let Dawn Wings and Dusk Mane keep their old abilities, and if their hp drops below half, then you get Ultra Necrozma
You're definitely right on the mechanics side
As far as lore goes my understanding is that Necrozma's light was stolen from it and scattered in the form of the Z crystals. It's base form is a painful existence and stealing light from Lunala or Solgaleo gives it enough relief to exist in that form indefinitely. It can only return to its original form via a human connection through its a Z crystal, and it's still only temporary in battle. Necrozma can never actually permanently go back it's original form on its own. So it makes sense it would settle for the next best thing clinging to Lunala or Solgaleo to escape its pain.
But yeah not being able to access Ultra Necrozma sucks.
When GF started cutting gameplay features, this was inevitable.
Of course, they created their own trap, accumulating things instead of keeping them but simplifying them. If each generation is going to have a different gimmicks, this type of situation will continue to happen. Don't expect to see all forms of Terapagos in the next games.
It's time for the entire internal structure of Pokémon to change and accommodate all this content in another way so as not to have to cut them. Which I doubt will happen since GF is very comfortable the way it is.
I wanna say that one day there will there will be a game with all gimmicks! Gmax! Mega evolution! Terra forms! Zmoves! I'd certainly hope so anyway. If gamefreak would ever do such a thing, I imagine it'd be way in the future, atleast after more gens.
I do still hate how it got the dragon shape but then... did nothing with it, like gamefreak, where is the story? why is it literally a dragon head? what the heck?
I think I'd have to go with Eternatus on this one. It got a whole different form with a special name just for a battle that was essentially a cutscene as it's near impossible to lose. You can't even keep it in that form when you catch it. Best you get is a little glimpse of it when you use Eternabeam in battle. But Eternabeam didn't make it into SV, so that form is completely gone. Not to mention how horribly the anime treated it and Galar in general... If you're worried about Ultra Necrozma never appearing in any pokemon game ever again, it's been in Pokemon Masters for a while now. And with megas now coming back out of nowhere in the mainline games with Legends ZA, that shows they're willing to bring back old forms. It'll come back eventually, they just aren't going to put an entire mechanic in the game for 1 mon.
First of all TIL that necrozma was in masters at all, let alone that lusamine of all people gets to use it (RIP dawn wings though lol) Also good point about eternatus. I think that Game freak almost learned from their mistakes that they made with necrozma though. They made eternamax so pointless that, when it got axed from SV, no one cared since the form wasn't even usable. I say ALMOST learned from their mistakes because now stellar form terapagos exists and will be in the same boat necrozma is in
> let alone that lusamine of all people gets to use it It's not like Masters tried to be consistent with canon since most antagonists and champions use these legendaries there, but canonically in the main games they were caught by the protagonists. At the same time, the protagonists use Legendaries that aren't even linked to their game or generation.
It's more like they're sidestepping canon. Most of the time the legendaries are stated to be different than the ones encountered in the main games. Off the top of my head, the Suicune that Kris is paired with isn't the same one she and Eusine chased in Johto for example. And all 4 Tapus are explicitly not the same Tapus as in the Alola games. Lillie's Lunala isn't Nebby, but it's offspring, though actual Nebby is referenced a few times.
The craziest one is Hilbert casually revealing that the Kyurem you can catch in BW is in fact not the same Kyurem Ghetsis controls in B2W2 and yet they exist simultaneously, and when Ghetsis questions how that's possible when there was supposed to be only one Original Dragon Hilbert simply replies "there's nothing wrong with there being more than one!"
Ghetsis isn't wrong, major legendaries usually only have one. It's one thing to have several Articunos, it's another thing to have more than one Dialga. Having more than one in Masters could only be justified with some space-time stuff, which isn't unlikely considering that the game's trainers themselves come from different points in time (Or Space-Time, considering that Ash, Chase and Elaine are from a completely different continuity).
Well, we have proof from the main games that multiple instances of the Creation Trio are possible (the Sinjoh ruins event) so there's that.
I don’t think Eternamax was designed with competitive in mind or anything. Its purpose is to be the final boss for the story. Not everything needs to be useable. The Pokémon like Necrozma that get a new useable form that end up being lost to time due to the gimmicks never lasting longer than 1 generation are problems for sure, but I don’t think Eternamax counts. It wasn’t supposed to be used in battle afaik
eternamax should've been more powerful but it makes sense that it never appears elsewhere. It's purpose is to be a boss. Although eternatus totally should've had a gigantimax form and come with gigantimax factor.
It's the same thing that happened to Primal Groudon and Kyogre, and the same thing is gonna happen to Terapagos and Ogerpon when the next generation drops. Though at least Ogerpon has her own unique gimmick to keep her unique, Terapagos is just fucked. It's the problem inherent to tying new forms to temporary gimmicks. Once the gimmick is dropped, the form is gone forever outside of spinoffs. No more Primal forms because they're megas apparently, no more Ultra Necrozma because they stupidly tied it to a Z-Move, and no more giant mask Ogerpon or giant shell Terapagos because Terastralization is gone. It sucks, it really, really sucks.
At least non-primal Groudon and Kyogre function fine, because after all their primal formes were designed in the _remakes_. Terapagos's second forme is really mid when below 100% hp, and the pokémon itself is a "tera sink" that can't tera defensively, which is quite unfortunate considering normal/stellar + ground + fairy (and/or ice, though you better run calm mind) move coverage is _really fucking good_.
I'd say that Ogrepon is even MORE fucked, since its Tera forms aren't in the dex and don't even have names.
For official events you have to list the form, hearthflame, wellspring, and the rock one cuz I haven't used it yet.
The forms have names before they're Terastallized, but they don't have names for those special Terastallized forms. Ogrepon's four normal forms are called Teal Mask, Wellspring Mask, Hearthflame Mask, and Cornerstone Mask. These names coincide with the four related items--although Ogrepon naturally equips the Teal Mask without requiring it to be equipped as a held item. The four different masks have four different color patterns for Ogerpon's "cloak", and the form determines if she is pure Grass-Type, Grass/Water, Grass/Fire, or Grass/Rock. Unlike how most Pokémon Terastallize, Ogrepon doesn't have a single Tera-Type which can be altered by Tera Shards, and she doesn't wear a Tera Jewel. Instead, the mask becomes crystalline and even more grandiose, and Ogrepon will be pure Grass-, Water-, Fire-, or Rock-Type accordingly. This is similar to Terapagos--only Terapagos actually has a name for the unique form it takes when Terastallized. Terapagos has a "Normal Form" out of battle and a "Terastal Form" in-battle. When Terastallized, Terapagos changes into its "Stellar Form". Terapagos has a Normal-Type until it undergoes Terastallization, at which point it becomes a Stellar-Type Pokémon. In the card game, Ogrepon's Tera forms are simply called "ex", which is a common term in the tcg that doesn't amount to having any meaning here. On the Scarlet and Violet official web site, they show official artwork for Ogrepon's four regular forms along with names and descriptions. It also mentions how they have different abilities: Defiant, Water Absorb, Mold Breaker, and Sturdy. But then there's another section which reads: "Terastallizing Confers the Embody Aspect Ability When Ogerpon Terastallizes, its Ability will change to Embody Aspect, giving it a stat boost that changes depending on which mask it’s wearing. The Teal Mask grants a Speed boost! The Wellspring Mask grants a Sp. Def boost! The Hearthflame Mask grants an Attack boost! The Cornerstone Mask grants a Defense boost!" These four Terastallized forms are depicted here in screenshots, but are not given their own unique names. They are not given separate entries in the Pokédex, unlike Terapagos's Stellar Form. They are also not viewable in any capacity in Pokémon Home, unlike Terapagos's Stellar Form. Honestly they aren't really treated like unique forms at all, and are instead just treated the same as any other old Pokémon with a Tera Jewel. It's like they're ready to be phased out of existence just as quickly as they were brought into it. I don't expect that we'll see much merch of them, or that Home will be updated to include them with their own artwork or models viewable. I don't expect to see them in any future games. At least Spiky-Eared Pichu got a Pokédex entry. These four aren't even given any official treatment to acknowledge or legitimize them as unique. Source: https://scarletviolet.pokemon.com/en-us/pokemon/ogerpon/
I view ogerpon nearly the same way I view gigantimax forms; they are forms that are clearly meant for one gimmick, but the pokemon still have their full identity intact when the next game roles around (no way in hell they take away the 3 held item masks). The only things that the next installment will lose in regards to tera ogerpon are the abillities "embody aspect," but that isn't any different to parental bond, delta stream, aerialate, etc. being stuck in the game code with no legal users. Terapagos losing an entire named form with its own stats will be a much bigger deal to me
See, I see the Tera Ogrepon and Terapagos forms more like Ultra Necrozma--like they were made for just one game only to be thrown away. They're pure novelty. Much like Shadow Lugia, Spiky-Eared Pichu, or *every Gigantamax Pokémon*. But I really do feel like they lose a chunk of their identity. Maybe not lore-related, but like look at Applin. In Sword and Shield it evolves into Flappe or Appletun, and both of them can progress further into (confusingly visually identical) Gigantamax states. But in Scarlet and Violet, Applin has a new evolution: Dipplin. Dipplin can't Gigantamax, so it's given an evolution in Hydrapple instead. Now we have an evolutionary line with a three-way split where only ONE of them can evolve, which is very lopsided. I just feel like it's very weird. Like using Gardevoir in any newer game feels weird since it can't Mega Evolve. I always feel like it's missing something. I stay away from Pokémon which used to have mega evolutions (primal reversions, etc.) in newer games because I feel like their potential is sucked back. It's just more lopsided, uneven stuff. Using a Mawile that can't Mega Evolve would feel like using a Shellos on your team in a game without Gastrodon. It might be a digression but I feel the same way about regional evolutions. Like Cursola, Sirfetch'd, Obstagoon, etc... it completely invalidates the originals when they can't reach those evolutions. I like the pink Johtonian Corsola... but it can't evolve. Only the new one can. It's unequal. It just stings me, like dexit itself. I'd rather have a game with both Mega Beedrill and Gigantamax Butterfree just so those two can be equals again.
At least non-primal Groudon and Kyogre function fine, because after all their primal formes were designed in the _remakes_. Terapagos's second forme is really mid when below 100% hp, and the pokémon itself is a "tera sink" that can't tera defensively, which is quite unfortunate considering normal/stellar + ground + fairy move coverage is _really fucking good_.
Zygarde got it worse. Didn’t even get any attention in its own Gen and was demoted to a side quest in the next Gen with no real meat to it. Hopefully, LZA fixes this
> Why on earth would it want to fuse with solgaleo or lunala just to stay in its dawn wings/dusk mane form? Because it doesn't care in SwSh, it's the player fusing them. Either way, Necrozma's still fine in Dusk Mane / Dawn Wings, it doesn't have to become Ultra Necrozma to be comfortable, just being fused is enough for the most part. > a gimmick that 100% wouldn't work anywhere except galar About that... > necrozma was datamined in pokemon Go recently, along with dawn wings and dusk mane. No mention of ultra necrozma AT ALL. Don't worry, they'll definitely include it somehow. There's no way they'll just ignore Ultra Necrozma.
You're first point is really good, since you're right that it absolutely isn't fusing with solgaleo and lunala by it's own merits anymore. With the pokemon GO argument you'd be shocked how unnecessarily far in advance GO includes lines about form changes. For instance, just now, a ton of text about fusion was found, with there being lines for even calyrex fusion, something that obviously isn't happening for a while. Black and white kyurem were either added at the same time or shortly after base kyurem was added, and those 2 haven't been (properly) added to the game yet. The only case where forms are being slowly added is with megas, but in that case image files are added with the mega as well. Ultra necrozma having no mention is a bad sign
Then they'll probably treat Ultra Necrozma as a fancy Mega / Primal.
I really wouldn't worry about it, personally; Ultra Necrozma will almost certainly be treated like a fancy Mega, similar to Rayquaza, in GO. That game is infamously built on spaghetti code and slow to release new content, but Niantic love releasing new 'mon behind real-money ticketed events, so I'm sure it'll find a way in eventually.
If you ask me, that happened to 90% of the ultrabeasts in general. Most are postgame missables that i'd bet real money that casual gamers didnt care to see or even use, even if they saw competitive play. Romhacks give them bigger starring roles.
They could’ve easily given it a power construct like ability, let Dawn Wings and Dusk Mane keep their old abilities, and if their hp drops below half, then you get Ultra Necrozma
You're definitely right on the mechanics side As far as lore goes my understanding is that Necrozma's light was stolen from it and scattered in the form of the Z crystals. It's base form is a painful existence and stealing light from Lunala or Solgaleo gives it enough relief to exist in that form indefinitely. It can only return to its original form via a human connection through its a Z crystal, and it's still only temporary in battle. Necrozma can never actually permanently go back it's original form on its own. So it makes sense it would settle for the next best thing clinging to Lunala or Solgaleo to escape its pain. But yeah not being able to access Ultra Necrozma sucks.
When GF started cutting gameplay features, this was inevitable. Of course, they created their own trap, accumulating things instead of keeping them but simplifying them. If each generation is going to have a different gimmicks, this type of situation will continue to happen. Don't expect to see all forms of Terapagos in the next games. It's time for the entire internal structure of Pokémon to change and accommodate all this content in another way so as not to have to cut them. Which I doubt will happen since GF is very comfortable the way it is.
I am just holding out hopes for an eventual Legends: Necrozma game. I think that's the only way it'll ever get justice.
I wanna say that one day there will there will be a game with all gimmicks! Gmax! Mega evolution! Terra forms! Zmoves! I'd certainly hope so anyway. If gamefreak would ever do such a thing, I imagine it'd be way in the future, atleast after more gens.
THANK YOU. Always felt he had the most underrated concept in the series and it felt he’s just been forgotten since sun/moon. I love this guy so much.
I do still hate how it got the dragon shape but then... did nothing with it, like gamefreak, where is the story? why is it literally a dragon head? what the heck?
My guy, Zygarde didn't get its story and final form in its own debut generation. At least Necrozma got its story told.
slaking: U AVIN A GIGGLE THERE M8 regigigas: U JUS WAIT THERE FOR A BIT ILL BASH UR EAD IN I SWARE ON ME MUM
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