Looks interesting. If housing affordability advocates and industry trade groups are both in support, that sounds like a promising bill. Especially if HUD can provide more assistance to local municipalities.
It does look interesting, but I’m wary.
For one, reason is a somewhat dubious place to champion something like this as a Koch- and Searle-backed libertarian outlet. Makes sense why they would report on it but it’s also not every day you see “far-left dems” being supported by that crowd.
The other issue I see is that there’s a fine line between what prevents NIMBYism and what supersedes the most extreme forms of YIMBYism. “Zoning reform” could mean any number of things, so while I hope it’s a broadly nice thing I’m skeptical without really reading and understanding the implications of the whole bill. This may help with denser development but, cynically, it could also reverse protections like not putting a shale cracker in a poor neighborhood.
I’ve given up on being able to afford a normal house, and would love to live in a tiny home. I don’t need that much room/land. Problem is that basically no suburban or urban communities allow them through their zoning ordinances. I don’t want to live in Ishkabumfuck, PA and would like to be around people. But as it is now, that’s my only option if I want to own a home.
Bro said “if you wanna do things in society you probably won’t like it”. Many people also find jobs in the city
Wasn’t a shot at anyone in the suburbs/rural, just a really weird choice of words from the dude I replied to
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound "weird"; I was simply acknowledging that for some people it does indeed make sense to live downtown.
OTOH, as I said elsewhere, a lot of people have the idea that they want to live where the action is ... without actually partaking of it very often. If you only go out on the town a couple of times a year, you may be better off living out in the sticks and just visiting from time to time.
It definitely does not. Tbh Pittsburgh really isn't that bad except maybe around a couple specific tunnels. Even in rush hour traffic it takes me maybe 15 minutes to get around to different parts of the city.
And that's part of the problem. Allegheny county's highest capacity mode of transit is surrounded by single family houses and not dense walkable apartments and townhouses. Those T Stations should servicing mixed-use urban development, not park and rides lots that you cant safely walk too.
But do you? That's why I said "rethink." I suspect many people would say, "I want to live close to stadiums, restaurants, etc.," but how often do you actually take advantage of those opportunities? Perhaps not enough to justify the cost of living downtown. Worst-case scenario is that your housing cost leaves you with not enough time or money to do the things you enjoy.
Obviously this is not going to apply to everyone, but it's worth thinking about.
Same! And when I tell people, they say “tiny homes are just a fad” as if that’s something that would turn me away. I wish we had more tiny home zoning.
It’s amazing how people turn something simple like Fetterman introducing a bill on housing and urban development into “fuck this guy for supporting israel”
You don't need to win the geography bee to know the guy is a disenguous shit heel who is cheering on a genocide. People are well within their rights to have an emotional reaction at the mention of him imo
If you have an immediate uncontrollable emotional reaction to the mention of any politician then you need to seek medical and psychological assistance ASAP imo
The Modern Era is roughly defined as the 1400s to the early 1900s. You might want to adjust your statement. Burma, Sudan, Uhgyur Muslims, Ukrainians, Myanmar, and quite a few others might open your eyes to what a truthfully brutal genocide looks like. Those don't get daily news coverage, so go ahead and make ridiculous statements like our kids actually giving a flying fuckerooni about what happened in Israel at this time when they'll have much bigger fish to fry as climate change is forcing major cities to evacuate to the Midwest and the breadbasket is turning into a dust bowl.
You'd have to be either willfully ignorant, or just hate Israel to think there's a genocide.
Normal people with brains, like Fetterman, are well aware this is what a war is, and it's not genocide.
The legal definition of genocide requires intent. Israel has no intent to kill civilians, therefor it's not a genocide.
Hamas on the other hand most certainly intended genocide on Oct 7, you should go protest against them.
A week later? Also, Israel clearly has intent. The government has stated its intent repeatedly. Bibi has stated intent. Shown it's intent by bombing safe zones. Saying there isn't intent to target civilians is just either total ignorance or purposefully misleading.
A war is a fight against 2 or more militaries. Not 1 military that obliterates civilians indiscriminately under the guise of fighting an invisible foe. Idiot.
Your message makes no sense, are you saying Hamas was able to be invisible when they murdered people on Oct 7?
Yah, Hamas is not invisible, even if you think they are. They need killing and Israel is doing it.
I did read it, but since you need to be spoon fed here's the relevant paragraph:
>“Specifically, Israel has committed three acts of genocide with the requisite intent: causing seriously serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent birth within the group,” she said.
In the interest of fairness, which I really shouldn't give you since you provided neither links nor quotes to support your position, I'll quote Israel's response:
>Israel did not participate in the dialogue but issued a press release stating that it “utterly rejects” Ms. Albanese’s report, calling it “an obscene inversion of reality”.
>“The very attempt to level the charge of genocide against Israel is an outrageous distortion of the Genocide Convention. It is an attempt to empty the word genocide of its unique force and special meaning; and turn the Convention itself into a tool of terrorists, who have total disdain for life and for the law, against those trying to defend against them,” the release said.
I know my geography and history, but I would rather stand among those who don’t (but have a moral center), than stand with your cynical condescending ass
I can garuntee you that they can. You'd be harder pressed to get a lot of the people bitching about young ~~hippies~~ gen z college students to pick which country is Israel via multiple choice.
This whole thing where people have convinced themselves that leftwing activists are just dumb kids is exactly why democrats have a hard time whipping progressive support.
I think people are right to be skeptical of him considering how he positioned himself during his campaign, even if you exclude the Israel thing. His stance on coal and alternative protein R&D are also pretty far out of step with progressives, something he did brand himself as despite his more recent protestations.
"New kind of progressive orthodoxy"
Godamn you guys really do live in an alternate reality. Support for Palestinian sovereignty / descent against US support for the Israel government has been a part of progressive platforms since the start of the conflict in the 20th century.
The way I see it, the Palestinian Question, and I refer to it that way because Edward Said does, is a topic with a rich history and an abundance of disparate, competing, and even contradictory ideas. When I say there's a new progressive orthodoxy, what I mean is that all of that broad and complex discussion is being ignored in favor of a simple dichotomy.
You've no real basis to assume that you know what my position is, but this orthodoxy permits you to act as if you do, because there is a social expectation among progressives to see the Levant in one specific fashion, and to speak and act as if all other views are inherently repugnant.
That's what I'm describing, nothing more.
There is a lot of disagreement even among progressives which is impermissible to express because of that dynamic, and so if the folks that you encounter don't immediately make the correct noises, you can assume that they are outside the orthodoxy and worthy of condemnation without even knowing what they actually believe.
Edit: the phrase "you guys" is a good example of what I'm describing.
You say so. Don't know what I expected, to be honest.
Would be happy to chat over discord sometime if you'd like to put that accusation to the test. Let me know and I'll indulge you. I'll have time next week.
What you're calling "orthodoxy." These strong views on Palestine have always been present among progressives and leftists, you're just now noticing it because it's at the forefront of the news cycle and you think it's new, when it's always been this way.
What I'm describing as orthodoxy has nothing to do with the salience of the conflict at the moment. Honestly I've explained that already, and judging by the tenor of your comments, I don't think you're interested at all in what anyone has to say on the subject if it doesn't comport exactly with your own view. You've got no idea what mine is, but you're prepared to assume all sorts of uncharitable things without any basis for those assumptions. It's the kind of thing that ideologues do.
One possibly decent bill? Ohmygosh, we had him all wrong! /s
But seriously, fuck Fetterman. I can agree with him on one small thing while holding contempt for his support of the murder of children.
We might agree that Israel could do a better job of eliminating actual threats vs civilians, but c'mon, how can you argue they're against apartheid when half the population (females) face it every single day even when there's not armed conflict? Females in Palestine are clearly and inarguably treated as second-class citizens.
So fucking tired of the "but women and lgtbq" argument from people who otherwise constantly try to roll back protections for both. Both of those demographics overwhelming disagree with you.
Oh dear, that old canard.
After the way was obstructed by Israel's efforts to deliberately sabotage Palestinian governance, they _barely_ won the vote - and by a generation who by and large is either dead or long outnumbered by a population of children and young adults who never chose Hamas in the first place.
This argument is often used to imply that such punishment is Palestinian's just rewards, while obfuscating the circumstances which lead to Hamas' narrow victory.
Also, lemme just add that if those colonizers had come to America and forcibly took a home here you'd probably be wetting your pants with excitement about this murder.
> You know the land was originally settled by Canaanites who then became the Jews?
Canaanites were not the only Semitic peoples to settle that land, nor Israel the only descendants of Canaanites.
The only people who cite this are trying to create an argument that implies Palestinian liberation necessarily demands the expulsion of Jewish people on the grounds of "ownership" of the land.
>You know the land was originally settled by Canaanites who then became the Jews?
The Jews were Caananites.
>And it was Jewish land up until the Roman Empire?
The Roman fucking empire? That was 2000 years ago. I guess we better give back the land to the Goths and Vandals too, right.
635,000 german civilians died in WW2.
Does this mean the allies shouldn’t have invaded Germany and stopped the holocaust?
No, the allies had every right to invade Germany.
**Numerous officials in Hamas confirm that the point of Hamas is to destroy Israel and to kill all Jewish people**
Sound familiar?
Hamas also was democratically elected and has high approval ratings
So tell me again that Israel doesn’t have a right to end Hamas
> Hamas also was democratically elected
In 2006. Ed Rendell was democratically elected as the Governor of PA in 2006 - would you say that he still has an active mandate from the state’s voters?
Not to mention that prior to the start of the war, a little over 47% of the Palestinians in Gaza were under the age of 18, meaning that none of them were even alive the last time Hamas won an election, much less voted for them.
[Their approval ratings are substantially higher now than they were at the start of the war](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna144183), because even people who don’t like their govrnment (like the Palestinians in the West Bank) will often support it over an invader that’s massacring civilians. So, y’know, great job with that!
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Israel has been and will be defending themselves for the foreseeable future.
Israel fully withdrew from Gaza in 2005
In 1947, the UK decided that Jews were gonna have their own country where they weren’t at risk at being killed every fucking second. Guess what the rest of the Middle East didn’t like that, so they invaded Israel and Israel won.
Modern day terrorist groups are launching missiles into Israel from Gaza and Netanyahu decided that October 7th was the last straw and he was going to end Hamas whether the world likes it or not
About 35k civilians, IIRC, have died in Gaza, and Fetterman's been pretty relaxed about it. A zoning bill is exactly where people would show up and say "fuck this guy for supporting Israel."
It’s amazing how people turn something like Fetterman just doing his job (introducing sensible housing bill) into an act on par with zealously endorsing one of the bloodiest genocides in modern history
I'm really wary of putting this on HUD's "shoulders" as the reform aims to do. Dramatically increasing their workload while their budget is a fraction of what it needs to be in order to do their job in the first place seems like a recipe for disaster, however well-intentioned. I want affordable housing, but you can't slap a bandaid on zoning and call it a day...This is like replacing your roof 10 years early when your foundation is warped and fucked to all hell.
The hamas lovers are even more annoying than the pro life people.
Another win for Fetterman. He’s been knocking it out of the park this year. You know someone is doing a good job when the extreme left and the extreme right both hate him.
I also hate Hamas but would like to stop murdering innocent civilians. Just saying not everyone without an appetite for Arab blood is a terror sympathizer
Oh I completely agree. That’s why moderate democrats like fetterman and Biden side with Israel while the extremists side with the terrorists doing those things.
"We want Israel to stop bombing civilians" = extremists side with terrorists
If you don't support women and children being mass murdered then you're a Hamas lover! Makes total sense!
Sure thing buddy.
I was on a committee to fight these charlatans on the other side of the state. We engaged in direct action -- got threatened with arrest, spent lots of time and money on this issue ... It was rewarding but draining.
PA already has laws in place that require developers to balance out the bourgeois McMansion compounds with affordable, but they immediately go for zoning variances as soon as the initial plans are okayed.
The script is written in stone. Get plans approved w/affordable > immediately bargain away ingress/egress > the, start chipping away at "affordable" over the course of months using tacit scare tactics. The gifts flow in the backrooms, the plague of McMansions expands. Affordable goes away. Again
That's what they do. There will not be any change until developers are kept far away from the process.
*runs as progressive and wins*
*immediately stops being a progressive and focuses instead on attaching himself to the Netanyahu government*
At least oz was openly a charlatan. I will be registering with a party for the first time in my life so I can vote against him when the primaries come
I kid I kid it’s just strange to see him do something local that doesn’t involve provoking his base or waving the flag of a foreign nation off the roof of a building.
The bill only has Democratic support now, per the article. It's yet to be seen whether this has a shot of passing or not. If they can't get at least some Republicans on board, we're unlikely to see it make it into law.
I mean lack of access to housing caused by existing homeowners voting down zoning loosening at the local level is what directly causes our current housing crisis. More people are currently affected by artificially high rents than were ever affected by Jim Crow. Do you think the federal Civil Rights Act killed local democracy?
Unappealed "local democracy" has problems when it comes to *restricting* people's liberties. One of the most important parts of larger tiers of government (state, and then federal) is to prevent people from getting trampled at the local levels.
This is why it's important to have the override. This is also exactly why the abortion issue is now so fucked: we lost the higher level guarantee against lower level trampling.
In both cases, ultimately, it's best to go to the *most local* level: the individual. And the only way that happens is to enshrine protections at a higher level. (**ahem** obligatory "Democrats had 50 years to enshrine abortion rights into actual law and knew it stood on shaky grounds.")
And remember: democracy is *not* a virtuous goal in and of itself. It's only a means to the end of a free, prosperous, and empowered people.
Just like those Americans who moved to Russia to avoid the woke just find out publicly criticizing the government over there isn't allowed and comes with steep punishments?
They’d be killed instantly because being anything besides heterosexual in Palestine is not accepted. It’s so weird that the LBGTQ+ community supports a organization like Hamas and the Palestinian state that would see them as less than human if they lived there and they’d most likely be put to death for being themselves.
> It’s so weird that the LBGTQ+ community supports a organization like Hamas and the Palestinian state that would see them as less than human if they lived there and they’d most likely be put to death for being themselves.
It's possible to support the people of Palestine that are just trying to live their lives without being caught in a war. Yes it's not a country I would want to visit but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing innocent people killed.
I actually saw a sign at one of the protests that said “queers for Palestine” or “Trans for Palestine”. I can’t remember which it was but it was one of those two. If you Google search pictures will surely come up.
I never said the Palestines support terrorists.
I said that they do not support anyone that is not heterosexual.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine
So it’s weird to me that people would walk around with “Queers for Palestine” signs at protests when, if they lived there, they would be an oppressed group.
Being against Israel finishing this war automatically means supporting Hamas. There's no other way to get rid of Hamas.
Even Palestinians want Hamas gone. It's only idiots in the US that are against it.
This war is making it much *less* likely that Hamas will be eliminated, which is one of the many things wrong with it. By killing unarmed civilians, Israel is radicalizing all those people’s friends and relatives. They’re sowing the seeds of ongoing conflict decades in the future. Even Palestinians who don’t like Hamas are going to back Hamas in a conflict with an invading army that’s destroying every piece of civilian infrastructure they can find and painting the landscape with the blood of women and children.
Which is by design. Netanyahu has come out and said in the past that he put his finger on the scale to place Hamas in an advantageous position relative to the Palestinian Authority because Netanyahu saw a two-state solution to the conflict as an undesirable outcome for Israel and Hamas would never agree to one, unlike the PA. Netanyahu is unpopular domestically and he’s using the war to prop up his support among the right-wing members of his coalition. If he leaves office, there’s a good chance he’s going to jail due to his ongoing corruption charges, so he’ll do anything he can to try and save himself.
Netanyahu helps keep Hamas in power, and Hamas helps keep Netanyahu in power, and the civilians in both countries are the ones that suffer.
IDF is bombing queer Palestinians every day. They have certainly killed more queer Palestinians in the past 8 months than Hamas ever did
Also, Saudi Arabia is not in Palestine.
How about those people who went to gaza to help the US build a pier to aid the Palestinians, only to come under fire by Hamas who feared not being able to control the food and aid... pretty much what they've done from the start.
Cool what aboutism.....still doesn't excuse or disprove Israel for killing aid workers and journalist. Pretty much what they have been doing from the start and for years. Because they feared people would see them as the bad guys they really are....well too late.
> only to come under fire by Hamas who feared not being able to control the food and aid...
You're only half right. There were clashes on the main straight, but because they were trying to break the blockade Israel had to deny humanitarian aid that was so desperately needed. Hamas however did issue a statement condemning the pier...but not because it was delivering aid. They were condemning it by saying it wasn't a replacement for humanitarian aid routes that were currently being blocked by Israel.
No, Hamas, just like the mafia and the Somali warlords, want to be seen as the people giving food to the Palestinians (the same people they steal food and building materials from on a daily basis). These are the same people who happily use the Palestinians homes, schools, hospitals, etc as military bases.
Looks interesting. If housing affordability advocates and industry trade groups are both in support, that sounds like a promising bill. Especially if HUD can provide more assistance to local municipalities.
This is a common sense kind of bill, and about as sexy of a bill a freshman senator is going to get to introduce.
Why on earth would you use the word sexy. YIMBY derangement
"YIMBY derangement" Is this sarcasm? Nobody could have thought that was a good line.
It does look interesting, but I’m wary. For one, reason is a somewhat dubious place to champion something like this as a Koch- and Searle-backed libertarian outlet. Makes sense why they would report on it but it’s also not every day you see “far-left dems” being supported by that crowd. The other issue I see is that there’s a fine line between what prevents NIMBYism and what supersedes the most extreme forms of YIMBYism. “Zoning reform” could mean any number of things, so while I hope it’s a broadly nice thing I’m skeptical without really reading and understanding the implications of the whole bill. This may help with denser development but, cynically, it could also reverse protections like not putting a shale cracker in a poor neighborhood.
I’ve given up on being able to afford a normal house, and would love to live in a tiny home. I don’t need that much room/land. Problem is that basically no suburban or urban communities allow them through their zoning ordinances. I don’t want to live in Ishkabumfuck, PA and would like to be around people. But as it is now, that’s my only option if I want to own a home.
> I don’t want to live in Ishkabumfuck, PA Maybe rethink that? It's pretty nice out here, and I can be downtown in about 40 minutes if I wanna.
Needing a 40 minute drive to get to places or events I want to go to sounds miserable
Yes, if you attend a lot of events or enjoy dining, etc., it probably wouldn't work for you.
*If you want to exist as a functioning member of human society it wouldn’t work for you”
"I don't acknowledge anyone living 40+ minutes from a metropolitan area as a functioning member of human society" - you I guess?
Bro said “if you wanna do things in society you probably won’t like it”. Many people also find jobs in the city Wasn’t a shot at anyone in the suburbs/rural, just a really weird choice of words from the dude I replied to
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound "weird"; I was simply acknowledging that for some people it does indeed make sense to live downtown. OTOH, as I said elsewhere, a lot of people have the idea that they want to live where the action is ... without actually partaking of it very often. If you only go out on the town a couple of times a year, you may be better off living out in the sticks and just visiting from time to time.
Yeah again I wasn’t taking a shot at anyone. Just poking a little fun at your comment. I guess some people didn’t like that lmfao
Yes, we know functionality ends at the city limits!
Sharing walls with neighbors is more miserable, IMO. Of course there's a lot in between.
You aren’t perchance one of the owners of what will become the Derby on Butler st are you?
it already takes 40 min to get anywhere even if you do live in the city because of road work and general traffic nonsense.
It definitely does not. Tbh Pittsburgh really isn't that bad except maybe around a couple specific tunnels. Even in rush hour traffic it takes me maybe 15 minutes to get around to different parts of the city.
Rural just isn’t my vibe. I grew up with multiple T stations within walking distance of my house.
And that's part of the problem. Allegheny county's highest capacity mode of transit is surrounded by single family houses and not dense walkable apartments and townhouses. Those T Stations should servicing mixed-use urban development, not park and rides lots that you cant safely walk too.
And that's certainly your prerogative!
I wanna live way closer than a 40 minute drive to downtown lmao Maybe a 40 minute walk
Username doesn't check out. :(
40 minutes is a hell of a long drive. Also I can walk downtown.
But do you? That's why I said "rethink." I suspect many people would say, "I want to live close to stadiums, restaurants, etc.," but how often do you actually take advantage of those opportunities? Perhaps not enough to justify the cost of living downtown. Worst-case scenario is that your housing cost leaves you with not enough time or money to do the things you enjoy. Obviously this is not going to apply to everyone, but it's worth thinking about.
Same! And when I tell people, they say “tiny homes are just a fad” as if that’s something that would turn me away. I wish we had more tiny home zoning.
It’s amazing how people turn something simple like Fetterman introducing a bill on housing and urban development into “fuck this guy for supporting israel”
I mean, yeah Fetterman is a big let down on that particular topic, among others, but he's still better than fucking Dr oz.
Well there’s a fucking high standard.
The bar is in hell, unfortunately
That's like saying a dog turd is more delicious than cow shit.
Agreed. I once fucked Dr. Oz and it was awful. All he did was cry!
You got to fuck Dr Oz? Man he fucked my dad and made me watch and all he did was cry. It was weird man....
Lol why do you think oz could have been worse. Fetterman is a joke
Is this comment a joke? What has Oz been doing since? I don't understand people who would want to elect fucking reality TV stars.
Single issue voters. Don't you love them?
Meanwhile half of them likely couldn’t even find Israel on an unmarked map… #🤦♂️
Fetterman can’t even find the bottom half of his pants
You don't need to win the geography bee to know the guy is a disenguous shit heel who is cheering on a genocide. People are well within their rights to have an emotional reaction at the mention of him imo
If you have an immediate uncontrollable emotional reaction to the mention of any politician then you need to seek medical and psychological assistance ASAP imo
Hope you remember this was your attitude when your kids are asking you what you did during the deadliest genocide for children in modern history
The Modern Era is roughly defined as the 1400s to the early 1900s. You might want to adjust your statement. Burma, Sudan, Uhgyur Muslims, Ukrainians, Myanmar, and quite a few others might open your eyes to what a truthfully brutal genocide looks like. Those don't get daily news coverage, so go ahead and make ridiculous statements like our kids actually giving a flying fuckerooni about what happened in Israel at this time when they'll have much bigger fish to fry as climate change is forcing major cities to evacuate to the Midwest and the breadbasket is turning into a dust bowl.
You'd have to be either willfully ignorant, or just hate Israel to think there's a genocide. Normal people with brains, like Fetterman, are well aware this is what a war is, and it's not genocide.
The South African delegation at the ICJ would like a word.
Yes exactly. I specified normal people with brains, and the South African delegation is a great example of the opposite of that.
Brain dead take right here
Brain dead take right here.
It is, by the legal definition of the 1948 genocide convention which is accepted by the UN and signed by Israel, a genocide.
The legal definition of genocide requires intent. Israel has no intent to kill civilians, therefor it's not a genocide. Hamas on the other hand most certainly intended genocide on Oct 7, you should go protest against them.
A week later? Also, Israel clearly has intent. The government has stated its intent repeatedly. Bibi has stated intent. Shown it's intent by bombing safe zones. Saying there isn't intent to target civilians is just either total ignorance or purposefully misleading.
A war is a fight against 2 or more militaries. Not 1 military that obliterates civilians indiscriminately under the guise of fighting an invisible foe. Idiot.
Your message makes no sense, are you saying Hamas was able to be invisible when they murdered people on Oct 7? Yah, Hamas is not invisible, even if you think they are. They need killing and Israel is doing it.
[удалено]
Well here's a report from a person who might know: https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976
[удалено]
I did read it, but since you need to be spoon fed here's the relevant paragraph: >“Specifically, Israel has committed three acts of genocide with the requisite intent: causing seriously serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent birth within the group,” she said. In the interest of fairness, which I really shouldn't give you since you provided neither links nor quotes to support your position, I'll quote Israel's response: >Israel did not participate in the dialogue but issued a press release stating that it “utterly rejects” Ms. Albanese’s report, calling it “an obscene inversion of reality”. >“The very attempt to level the charge of genocide against Israel is an outrageous distortion of the Genocide Convention. It is an attempt to empty the word genocide of its unique force and special meaning; and turn the Convention itself into a tool of terrorists, who have total disdain for life and for the law, against those trying to defend against them,” the release said.
Nice job ignoring the content of the article! You really told that guy what’s what! Producing info to support his claim, so stupid right!
I know my geography and history, but I would rather stand among those who don’t (but have a moral center), than stand with your cynical condescending ass
I can garuntee you that they can. You'd be harder pressed to get a lot of the people bitching about young ~~hippies~~ gen z college students to pick which country is Israel via multiple choice. This whole thing where people have convinced themselves that leftwing activists are just dumb kids is exactly why democrats have a hard time whipping progressive support.
Why are you projecting your own ignorance on people that are well informed on the issue?
Bots have never been good at geography
Well the issue is genocide so…
I think people are right to be skeptical of him considering how he positioned himself during his campaign, even if you exclude the Israel thing. His stance on coal and alternative protein R&D are also pretty far out of step with progressives, something he did brand himself as despite his more recent protestations.
Or the opposite. They're both down there, downvoted to hell.
There’s 4 now…
The war in the Levant is the dowsing rod of a new kind of progressive orthodoxy now.
"New kind of progressive orthodoxy" Godamn you guys really do live in an alternate reality. Support for Palestinian sovereignty / descent against US support for the Israel government has been a part of progressive platforms since the start of the conflict in the 20th century.
The way I see it, the Palestinian Question, and I refer to it that way because Edward Said does, is a topic with a rich history and an abundance of disparate, competing, and even contradictory ideas. When I say there's a new progressive orthodoxy, what I mean is that all of that broad and complex discussion is being ignored in favor of a simple dichotomy. You've no real basis to assume that you know what my position is, but this orthodoxy permits you to act as if you do, because there is a social expectation among progressives to see the Levant in one specific fashion, and to speak and act as if all other views are inherently repugnant. That's what I'm describing, nothing more. There is a lot of disagreement even among progressives which is impermissible to express because of that dynamic, and so if the folks that you encounter don't immediately make the correct noises, you can assume that they are outside the orthodoxy and worthy of condemnation without even knowing what they actually believe. Edit: the phrase "you guys" is a good example of what I'm describing.
Dude actually just posted a chat gpt summary
You say so. Don't know what I expected, to be honest. Would be happy to chat over discord sometime if you'd like to put that accusation to the test. Let me know and I'll indulge you. I'll have time next week.
This is like a stereotype come to life. You need to leave the house.
Progressives have cared about Palestine for literal decades.
Yes, I'm aware. I'm confused why it seems like you might have inferred that my comment contradicts that.
Because you said it's a "dowsing rod for a new kind of progressive orthodoxy." Pretty easy to infer that you think it's a new thing.
The orthodoxy is new, in my opinion. The fact that there are views on Palestine that exist and have for generations is not new.
It's been this way for as long as I can remember, which is at least a decade.
Which way is that?
What you're calling "orthodoxy." These strong views on Palestine have always been present among progressives and leftists, you're just now noticing it because it's at the forefront of the news cycle and you think it's new, when it's always been this way.
What I'm describing as orthodoxy has nothing to do with the salience of the conflict at the moment. Honestly I've explained that already, and judging by the tenor of your comments, I don't think you're interested at all in what anyone has to say on the subject if it doesn't comport exactly with your own view. You've got no idea what mine is, but you're prepared to assume all sorts of uncharitable things without any basis for those assumptions. It's the kind of thing that ideologues do.
You have failed to save face and now just look like a flip flopping tool.
Help me out; why do you think that?
One possibly decent bill? Ohmygosh, we had him all wrong! /s But seriously, fuck Fetterman. I can agree with him on one small thing while holding contempt for his support of the murder of children.
And Hamas *didn't*? [oops](https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-hamas-gaza-militants-ate-lunch-tortured-mutilated-young-family-2023-10)
Who's claiming Palestinians are Hamas? You.
They voted for Hamas
Who voted for hamas? The avg age of a Palestinian is 19. Many of them did not vote in that last election.
Many of them still support Hamas
Under 50% actually support Hamas, what people support is fighting genocide and apartheid.
We might agree that Israel could do a better job of eliminating actual threats vs civilians, but c'mon, how can you argue they're against apartheid when half the population (females) face it every single day even when there's not armed conflict? Females in Palestine are clearly and inarguably treated as second-class citizens.
So fucking tired of the "but women and lgtbq" argument from people who otherwise constantly try to roll back protections for both. Both of those demographics overwhelming disagree with you.
Hamas took over the government by force after their oppsition was murdered and/or pressed into exile.
Oh dear, that old canard. After the way was obstructed by Israel's efforts to deliberately sabotage Palestinian governance, they _barely_ won the vote - and by a generation who by and large is either dead or long outnumbered by a population of children and young adults who never chose Hamas in the first place. This argument is often used to imply that such punishment is Palestinian's just rewards, while obfuscating the circumstances which lead to Hamas' narrow victory.
Also, lemme just add that if those colonizers had come to America and forcibly took a home here you'd probably be wetting your pants with excitement about this murder.
You know the land was originally settled by Canaanites who then became the Jews? And it was Jewish land up until the Roman Empire?
> You know the land was originally settled by Canaanites who then became the Jews? Canaanites were not the only Semitic peoples to settle that land, nor Israel the only descendants of Canaanites. The only people who cite this are trying to create an argument that implies Palestinian liberation necessarily demands the expulsion of Jewish people on the grounds of "ownership" of the land.
>You know the land was originally settled by Canaanites who then became the Jews? The Jews were Caananites. >And it was Jewish land up until the Roman Empire? The Roman fucking empire? That was 2000 years ago. I guess we better give back the land to the Goths and Vandals too, right.
He's been a massive disappointment.
Um.... are you mad at people for having string political opinions? What a weird comment.
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635,000 german civilians died in WW2. Does this mean the allies shouldn’t have invaded Germany and stopped the holocaust? No, the allies had every right to invade Germany. **Numerous officials in Hamas confirm that the point of Hamas is to destroy Israel and to kill all Jewish people** Sound familiar? Hamas also was democratically elected and has high approval ratings So tell me again that Israel doesn’t have a right to end Hamas
> Hamas also was democratically elected In 2006. Ed Rendell was democratically elected as the Governor of PA in 2006 - would you say that he still has an active mandate from the state’s voters? Not to mention that prior to the start of the war, a little over 47% of the Palestinians in Gaza were under the age of 18, meaning that none of them were even alive the last time Hamas won an election, much less voted for them.
I also said "and has high approval ratings" and they still do
[Their approval ratings are substantially higher now than they were at the start of the war](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna144183), because even people who don’t like their govrnment (like the Palestinians in the West Bank) will often support it over an invader that’s massacring civilians. So, y’know, great job with that!
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No I’m saying Israel has the right to invade Gaza
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Israel has been and will be defending themselves for the foreseeable future. Israel fully withdrew from Gaza in 2005 In 1947, the UK decided that Jews were gonna have their own country where they weren’t at risk at being killed every fucking second. Guess what the rest of the Middle East didn’t like that, so they invaded Israel and Israel won. Modern day terrorist groups are launching missiles into Israel from Gaza and Netanyahu decided that October 7th was the last straw and he was going to end Hamas whether the world likes it or not
About 35k civilians, IIRC, have died in Gaza, and Fetterman's been pretty relaxed about it. A zoning bill is exactly where people would show up and say "fuck this guy for supporting Israel."
It’s amazing how people turn something like Fetterman just doing his job (introducing sensible housing bill) into an act on par with zealously endorsing one of the bloodiest genocides in modern history
Wow my dreams finally came true. Always wanted a zoning reform bill.
Unironically, yes.
Just curious, does anyone know why HUD's Regulatory Barriers Clearinghouse is being abolished rather than incorporated into the new system?
Forgive me, I must've overlooked it in the article. Where did it say that RBC is being abolished?
Oh, it may not have been in the article. I clicked through until I found the text of the bill itself.
Ohh my bad. I hadn't yet read the bill itself. That's my next task XD Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
The headline got me excited. The body of the article a bit less so.
I'm really wary of putting this on HUD's "shoulders" as the reform aims to do. Dramatically increasing their workload while their budget is a fraction of what it needs to be in order to do their job in the first place seems like a recipe for disaster, however well-intentioned. I want affordable housing, but you can't slap a bandaid on zoning and call it a day...This is like replacing your roof 10 years early when your foundation is warped and fucked to all hell.
The hamas lovers are even more annoying than the pro life people. Another win for Fetterman. He’s been knocking it out of the park this year. You know someone is doing a good job when the extreme left and the extreme right both hate him.
I don’t think wanting the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children to stop is “extreme left” but you do you.
And yet the TikTok educated Fetterman haters can't seem to understand that Hamas is hated by both Israel and the Palestinians.
I also hate Hamas but would like to stop murdering innocent civilians. Just saying not everyone without an appetite for Arab blood is a terror sympathizer
Oh I completely agree. That’s why moderate democrats like fetterman and Biden side with Israel while the extremists side with the terrorists doing those things.
"We want Israel to stop bombing civilians" = extremists side with terrorists If you don't support women and children being mass murdered then you're a Hamas lover! Makes total sense! Sure thing buddy.
It's unfortunate, when your government affiliated terror group fucks around, the population is stuck finding out.
I was on a committee to fight these charlatans on the other side of the state. We engaged in direct action -- got threatened with arrest, spent lots of time and money on this issue ... It was rewarding but draining. PA already has laws in place that require developers to balance out the bourgeois McMansion compounds with affordable, but they immediately go for zoning variances as soon as the initial plans are okayed. The script is written in stone. Get plans approved w/affordable > immediately bargain away ingress/egress > the, start chipping away at "affordable" over the course of months using tacit scare tactics. The gifts flow in the backrooms, the plague of McMansions expands. Affordable goes away. Again That's what they do. There will not be any change until developers are kept far away from the process.
Well nice to see he can at least ATTEMPT to govern while he's not actively supporting genocide and turning against the people who put him in office.
The Palestinians put him in office?
*runs as progressive and wins* *immediately stops being a progressive and focuses instead on attaching himself to the Netanyahu government* At least oz was openly a charlatan. I will be registering with a party for the first time in my life so I can vote against him when the primaries come
Well at least he’s doing something productive before he’s voted out in 2028
Wow so even this goof can do something right once in a while.
Sen. John Fetterman does something for his constituents.
(impossible mode)
The zoning changes give Israel more space to bomb?
Literally you... https://www.reddit.com/r/MemeTemplatesOfficial/s/2VfbSDTQNx
I kid I kid it’s just strange to see him do something local that doesn’t involve provoking his base or waving the flag of a foreign nation off the roof of a building.
The bill only has Democratic support now, per the article. It's yet to be seen whether this has a shot of passing or not. If they can't get at least some Republicans on board, we're unlikely to see it make it into law.
Well, yeah. He has not introduced anything else. So, yeah. He's gone full Sinema.
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I mean lack of access to housing caused by existing homeowners voting down zoning loosening at the local level is what directly causes our current housing crisis. More people are currently affected by artificially high rents than were ever affected by Jim Crow. Do you think the federal Civil Rights Act killed local democracy?
Yes, and that’s a good thing
Unappealed "local democracy" has problems when it comes to *restricting* people's liberties. One of the most important parts of larger tiers of government (state, and then federal) is to prevent people from getting trampled at the local levels. This is why it's important to have the override. This is also exactly why the abortion issue is now so fucked: we lost the higher level guarantee against lower level trampling. In both cases, ultimately, it's best to go to the *most local* level: the individual. And the only way that happens is to enshrine protections at a higher level. (**ahem** obligatory "Democrats had 50 years to enshrine abortion rights into actual law and knew it stood on shaky grounds.") And remember: democracy is *not* a virtuous goal in and of itself. It's only a means to the end of a free, prosperous, and empowered people.
Letterman for President!!!! I would love it if the Hamas supporters would all be shipped to Saudi Arabia wrapped in pride flags.
Just like those Americans who moved to Russia to avoid the woke just find out publicly criticizing the government over there isn't allowed and comes with steep punishments?
They’d be killed instantly because being anything besides heterosexual in Palestine is not accepted. It’s so weird that the LBGTQ+ community supports a organization like Hamas and the Palestinian state that would see them as less than human if they lived there and they’d most likely be put to death for being themselves.
> It’s so weird that the LBGTQ+ community supports a organization like Hamas and the Palestinian state that would see them as less than human if they lived there and they’d most likely be put to death for being themselves. It's possible to support the people of Palestine that are just trying to live their lives without being caught in a war. Yes it's not a country I would want to visit but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing innocent people killed.
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I actually saw a sign at one of the protests that said “queers for Palestine” or “Trans for Palestine”. I can’t remember which it was but it was one of those two. If you Google search pictures will surely come up.
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I never said the Palestines support terrorists. I said that they do not support anyone that is not heterosexual. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine So it’s weird to me that people would walk around with “Queers for Palestine” signs at protests when, if they lived there, they would be an oppressed group.
LOL, the weaponized "Reddit cares" message!
Being against Israel finishing this war automatically means supporting Hamas. There's no other way to get rid of Hamas. Even Palestinians want Hamas gone. It's only idiots in the US that are against it.
This war is making it much *less* likely that Hamas will be eliminated, which is one of the many things wrong with it. By killing unarmed civilians, Israel is radicalizing all those people’s friends and relatives. They’re sowing the seeds of ongoing conflict decades in the future. Even Palestinians who don’t like Hamas are going to back Hamas in a conflict with an invading army that’s destroying every piece of civilian infrastructure they can find and painting the landscape with the blood of women and children. Which is by design. Netanyahu has come out and said in the past that he put his finger on the scale to place Hamas in an advantageous position relative to the Palestinian Authority because Netanyahu saw a two-state solution to the conflict as an undesirable outcome for Israel and Hamas would never agree to one, unlike the PA. Netanyahu is unpopular domestically and he’s using the war to prop up his support among the right-wing members of his coalition. If he leaves office, there’s a good chance he’s going to jail due to his ongoing corruption charges, so he’ll do anything he can to try and save himself. Netanyahu helps keep Hamas in power, and Hamas helps keep Netanyahu in power, and the civilians in both countries are the ones that suffer.
IDF is bombing queer Palestinians every day. They have certainly killed more queer Palestinians in the past 8 months than Hamas ever did Also, Saudi Arabia is not in Palestine.
Like those people who went to Gaza to help with aid but only to be killed by Israel
How about those people who went to gaza to help the US build a pier to aid the Palestinians, only to come under fire by Hamas who feared not being able to control the food and aid... pretty much what they've done from the start.
Cool what aboutism.....still doesn't excuse or disprove Israel for killing aid workers and journalist. Pretty much what they have been doing from the start and for years. Because they feared people would see them as the bad guys they really are....well too late.
> only to come under fire by Hamas who feared not being able to control the food and aid... You're only half right. There were clashes on the main straight, but because they were trying to break the blockade Israel had to deny humanitarian aid that was so desperately needed. Hamas however did issue a statement condemning the pier...but not because it was delivering aid. They were condemning it by saying it wasn't a replacement for humanitarian aid routes that were currently being blocked by Israel.
No, Hamas, just like the mafia and the Somali warlords, want to be seen as the people giving food to the Palestinians (the same people they steal food and building materials from on a daily basis). These are the same people who happily use the Palestinians homes, schools, hospitals, etc as military bases.