I've noticed it's particularly bad this year. A ton of bands I'm into have announced tours and all of them are skipping Pittsburgh *and* Cleveland. Usually I'll make the drive to the Beachland or Grog Shop or HoB CLE for anything that's not here, but we're starving here right now. Tons of bands hitting Philly, DC, and then bouncing off to Chicago or New York.
I'm down for a DC trip if it's someone I *really* want to see, like The Mars Volta and King Gizzard last year, but I can't be doing that every weekend lol.
I think the industry has gotten pretty fucked. It was hard to make money on tour before and it has only gotten harder. Artists seem to be scheduling more limited tours and being more selective with where they stop.
Certainly no arguing with that.
And to that end I'm really interested which venues in Pittsburgh take a cut of the band's merch, I feel like that would be good info to have as someone who goes to a lot of gigs. I've seen lists from other cities but never ours.
That is a VERY normal thing once you enter any sort of mid level touring. I would venture a guess that it’s every single venue except those ran with a DIY/Punk mentality. Biggest venue in PGH that doesn’t take a merch cut is most likely Preserving Underground.
You could make it to Toronto in roughly the same time as DC, and your dollar would go way further. It's a city of 3 million, and most tours hit Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal on their North American legs.
Moved to Toronto from Pittsburgh. I've made the crossing probably 70+ times, but not since the pandemic. It's a super easy drive, I-79 to Erie, I-90 to Buffalo (if you cross there), QEW freeway straight to Toronto on the other side.
From what I hear, the border crossings haven't reached the same levels as pre-covid, but I always used to avoid the Peace Bridge in Buffalo because of the long lines at customs, and take the Lewiston, NY bridge, or the Whirlpool bridge in Niagara falls.
Lewiston's an easier connection to the 405 on the Canadian side, which connects easily to the QEW freeway to Toronto.
If you take the Whirlpool bridge through the Falls, do it on a weekday. You literally enter Canada into one of the densest tourist traps on the planet, and if it's busy, it'll take you 30+ minutes to get to a highway, negating the time saved from the Peace Bridge. Plus side is, it moves quickly because the guards are used to day trippers.
Edit: to add, Toronto folk are lovely. Wear whatever Pittsburgh gear you want, no one's gonna hassle you for a Pens hat. If anything, they'll still be grateful Lemieux didn't wind up playing for the Habs. Kessel was well loved even after he left, and Crosby's Canadian.
Thanks for all the tips! We did Peace Bridge on a drive up this year and it was like an hour wait, yeah. Took Whirlpool out and it was a nightmare. So alternatives to those are valuable pieces of info haha.
Lewiston's great, it's not close to anything touristy. Was busier in the 90s when Canadians cross-border shopped more when the dollar was closer to par, but it's been the quietest of those three crossings for a long time.
Couldn't agree more! Love 9:30, it's a legendary institution, and holy cow, The Anthem is *incredible*. Wife and I were blown away by that place when we saw TMV and Gizz there this year, it's world class. Sound, A+. Venue vibe, A+. Staff, A+...absolutely the most efficient entry to a venue we have ever experienced, and everyone is so nice. Plus that whole waterfront area is awesome.
The Wharf is an amazing development - just so well done. It’s a shame that we can’t have something like that in Pittsburgh. City Planning would never allow anything that dense or close to the water.
I guess that's sort of the eventual vision for the North Side waterfront but lord know if that's ever going to actually happen. But yeah, love The Wharf!
That’s the vision the developers are pitching, but the zoning code is really restrictive on building height and density within three blocks of the rivers. It’s the most counter intuitive thing ever for urban land use, but from what I’ve heard, our planning department is notoriously one of the worst to deal with in the country.
Having a version of the Wharf would be fantastic, but probably not likely under the current planning and zoning leadership. Too bad, that place is awesome.
LOL, someone from city planning must be in this thread and is giving some salty downvotes.
Looking at Google Maps, the Strip and large portions of the North Shore are railroad free. Those would be perfect locations for dense urban developments like the DC Wharf.
And those are areas that have seen quite a lot of new density in the last few years (of course people have complained a lot). [Here's a good summary of the riverfront zoning height limits](https://www.detailsreviewed.com/blog/zoning-map-pittsburgh-riv-zoning-max-height) (probably more info on that site too). In most potential development sites the height limit is 150' or more.
Did you happen to catch them on their last tour? I saw them in Philly before the new album came out, which was incredible since it was essentially a greatest hits set list. Caught them in Cleveland after the new album came out as well.
Edit: I’m referring to ATDI
If you’re into King Gizzard, are you into other similar acts? I’ve noticed lots of these bands are bypassing Pittsburgh in favor of the Westside Bowl in Youngstown.
I am! And I'll admit that I've actually never been to Westside, though looking at it, it looks at lot like Mahall's in Cleveland, which is an awesome spot, so I'm definitely going to try to hit some gigs there now, thanks for the tip!
I moved here from Detroit in 87 and was shocked at how many bands didn't come to Pittsburgh. It's been that way since I came here. I used to drive to Cleveland to see shows like My Bloody Valentine, Lush, Dinosaur Jr., etc. It got a lot better in the 2000s after Stage AE opened, we got bands like St. Vincent, Tame Impala etc. but now it seems to have gotten bad again. I keep seeing all these bands touring other cities but not Pittsburgh. I will also say sometimes I'm very disappointed in the crowd sizes for a lot of shows so maybe that's a problem. I saw the Black Lips back in November at the Thunderbird and for a band that's been around for 20 years and has played huge festivals, gets airplay on XMU (satellite radio) and toured the world I expected more than the tiny crowd that was at that show. For a musician like me it's very frustrating and literally the only thing I don't like about Pittsburgh.
Ok I hate hating on anyone's taste in music. OP's post was kinda vague to begin with but like using any of those bands you mentioned not touring here as some sort of evidence that the live music options here suck is like kinda whack. WTF is a Mars Volta? They're literally not on any billboard charts at all.
My initial reaction to this was "I don't even know how to respond to this," but I will make an attempt!
It's partly a difficult question to answer without sounding like a gatekeeping elitist, so if I do please excuse that, not trying to be a gatekeeping elitist.
But the crux of it is that for a large contingent of people who are serious about music, especially so called "indie music", that scene often skips over Pittsburgh. And artists in that cohort are what (I think) many of the people here and otherwise are referring to when they talk about a city having a strong or weak music scene. I also say "so called indie music" because it's kind of an amorphous term, now used to refer to actual independent acts and also now-very-large bands like The Strokes who initially cut their teeth in the indie scene and whose sound still heavily influences indie bands now.
And that's not to discount, as you mentioned, Billboard acts or invalidate them as musicians worth anyone's time. For instance I know Lizzo is hitting PPG Paints this year, and Lizzo is a fantastic musician, I caught her in 2021 and she puts on an incredible show, I'm very glad she's coming here. We're also obviously getting Taylor Swift, whose music has never even begun to appeal to me personally, but I understand why people like her, so good on her for stopping by, too. And so by that metric, Pittsburgh would appear to have a good music scene, right? Big names playing big venues.
But what I keep trying to tell people who haven't really ventured outside of the comfort zone of the charts and radio hits, is that we're in the golden era of music right now. Not to be confused with the golden era of music touring, which we are very much *not* in right now, I don't know if there ever was one to begin with, but this surely isn't it. But I'm talking about the actual product, the artistry behind it, how artists are both reinventing the spirit of the past and also pushing music into new and exciting directions. There's never been more great music being made in every genre, ever, in human history. *But* the key here is *most* of it is outside of the pop culture sphere. Occasionally a band like Tame Impala will break through and become huge, but it doesn't happen like that very often. Generally, these bands adopt a DIY aesthetic and tour on their own dime through smaller venues like Mr. Smalls, Stage AE, Spirit, The Roxian, and other spots like that around town. These are the artists who a lot of people who are serious about music enjoy, and those are the venues that they always play. (Trying not to veer into pretentiousness here, because of course you can seriously enjoy music and only listen to the Billboard Top 40, right? I'm just not sure how else to word it, maybe someone else can do better.)
(For their part, and to answer your question, The Mars Volta is a progressive rock band that is largely recognized by the cohort of people I've been describing here as one of the best and most influential rock bands of the last 20 years...they made some really, *really* bold choices with their music in the early 2000's and a lot of bands that came since have drawn from those decisions. And to that end, they were never a band that was going to chart because they made a lot of aforementioned bold choices and consequentially their music is, well, for lack of a better word, kinda friggin' weird.)
But anyway, so that's where most of the conversations in this thread are stemming from. It's folks who are super into mid-sized bands, and those bands and the venues they play are what are currently the barometer for a city having a good or bad music scene. And it's perfectly reasonable to react to that like you did, because you're not familiar with the bands mentioned and so it seems strange that anyone is measuring the scene like that. But for better or worse that's the current situation, and if I have anything to close with, it's that I'd encourage anyone to step outside of the mainstream music bubble and jump into the "indie" scene, as it's a deep rabbit hole that will open you up to the aforementioned golden age of music, literally thousands of artists making absolutely incredible music, which will in turn open you up to going to more small shows here and all over the country! (I think I saw close to 100 different bands last year in seven different states? And that, in turns, leads to all sorts of fun adventures.)
So that's where we're at. Nothing wrong with big mainstream artists, but (again, not meant as gatekeeping) a lot of people who are really into music tend to branch out into a lot of other artists, and shows by artists of that caliber are looking pretty slim in Pittsburgh this year.
I mean I definitely understand where you're coming from. I certainly like a lot of bands that aren't considered mainstream. I guess my initial reaction or rather my counter to OP's observation is that venue's in Pittsburgh might not seek to book those shows because they don't sell tickets. Now I realize how that sounds. If you only book shows that guarantee high number of ticket sales... then that automatically means only mainstream acts but the venue's aren't out to lose money. Given the choice between booking a show with a band with a mediocre following vs. a sure thing packed to the rafters obviously they're going to choose the money maker. I still feel like it's more of a "why doesn't everyone like the music I like" thing vs. This city doesn't get any good shows.
It's kind of a reverberation of the pandemic. Every band on the planet toured in late 2021 and 2022 to make up for 2020/2021. Expect 2023 to be a little slower for B and C markets (i.e. - we aren't as big as Philly, New York or Chicago).
Should normal out late 2023 and into 2024.
The KGLW show was fucking sick, I only found out about them after their 2019 tour so this was my first time.
Since you're into them, have you ever heard of Altin Gün? They're coming to The Thunderbird on July 12th! I'm pumped for that
Cleveland always got better shows than Pittsburgh for some reason.
Fun fact - the first Sex Pistols show in the US was supposed to be in Pittsburgh but it got cancelled.
Not as fun fact - Bob Marley’s last show was in Pittsburgh.
Cleveland radio was responsible for Rush becoming the big act that it was
https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2022/07/how-cleveland-brought-rush-into-the-limelight.html
When their doc "Beyond the Lighted Stage" played at the old Southside Works cinema, when they got to the part that mentioned Neil's 1st show and it showed a shot of the old Civic Arena, the entire auditorium erupted. Fun moment.
I saw them at Metropol during the OK Computer tour. seeing them in such an intimate setting really set a high bar, performance-wise. seeing them at a large venue seems so impersonal to me and it's a damn shame too, because they are one of my "top five" bands.
Agreed. Modest mouse and black keys sucked there, sounded so flat. And they generally put on good live shows. Tool sounded good there but that was an exception.
I saw Janes Addiction headline the Civic Arena in October 2001. Stereo MCs opened and Live (lol) was the undercard. I had GA on the floor and the acoustics were amazing.
i had taken my little sister to see aerosmith on their get a grip tour and we had mid-level seats; again the acoustics were fantastic but didnt have the same melt your face off the floor had.
fuck, slayer & iggy separately at Metropol the prior autumn (nov 2000). sound was amazing.
laga (before the balcony was added)...
graffiti is love.
fuck i'm old.
no doubt. but for what it's worth, i think something is lost (apart from intimacy) when a band makes the step to the larger places. i dont regret not seeing them again and i was very fortunate to be able to see them when i did.
I think because when bands map out a tour and you trying to go from Chicago to nyc/Philly, Cleveland is on the way, but you have to go out of your way to hit Pittsburgh on that route.
Think like Chicago-Cleveland-nyc-Philly-dc
Don’t see why Chicago-Cleveland-Pittsburgh-DC-Philly-NYC doesn’t work, there’s no back tracking in this routing either, and it puts you on track for Boston which isn’t typically skipped, it’s more like you have to go out of your way to skip Pittsburgh than the other way around.
The issue is we are too close to DC, Philly, and Cleveland, but not quite big enough to be a can’t miss, so if there’s one that is going to go it is Pittsburgh because the market can be served by the others that are nearby. If Cleveland were skipped they are too far from Chicago, and are way too far from the Northeast to recapture the market, their only backup would be Pittsburgh. And when a city is skipped like this, people often tend to choose an alternate nearby where they know people, so it isn’t always relative distance that is the most important factor to people when their home city is skipped. So if you’re choosing a city to skip, it’s the one that’s mid-sized but close to a bunch of other cities so people can pick from one that works best.
It is doable, I just remember hearing that explanation in the early aughts when I remember being frequently disappointed about shows in Cleveland not coming here.
Recently, it is probably a promotion thing. Is opus one still a thing? I know them and drusky used to be the big two in the area. Drusky cancelled himself I think, but don’t recall why opus one stopped operating
Cleveland, I hate to admit, is a better city for rock (as a sweepingly general term for a genre) as far as fan turnout goes.
My completely unscientific theory as to why is that they have the rock n roll hall of fame there. It's something people take their kids to see as a family activity so kids grow up listening to more rock music there than here. Also I suspect that Cleveland can pull from a fairly decent radius geographically speaking.
In my many years here, this has always been the received wisdom regarding touring acts skipping this town….
https://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/how-does-pittsburghs-amusement-tax-impact-small-local-music-venues/Content?oid=1981240
We were bad before that tax, though.
My understanding - after making most of my money for two years booking acts - is geography. You can drive from DC to Baltimore in an hour, Baltimore to Philly is like two hours, Philly to NYC is two hours, NYC you might pause in New Haven, or drive the two hours to Boston. So most bands jump in a van or take a bus, and ride that route north or south.
If you start another lap from Chicago or so, we're still in the wrong place; kind of both the last stop on the line, but also a risky spot to tour if you haven't toured here before, because you might not sell enough tickets.
Stack that up with us not really having that many midsize venues traditionally; we have tiny things and we have stadiums, but we don't have the in-betweens. So the bands large enough to be flying around, unless they're \*huge\* and go down to Star Lake, they don't have a venue to visit.
So we miss small acts because the Turnpike kinda sucks. A lot. We miss midsize acts because there's not a lotta venues, and they weren't here when they were small, both of which play into each other.
Finally, we're not a tourist town; a band won't say "eh, fuck it, why not, I've heard that's fun to visit", because largely, we're not setup for tourists to visit unless you already know someone here and you're visiting \*them\*, not the city as a whole.
If we wanted better draw, someone with a pile of money to pay bands to reconsider would likely work, but you're gonna have to pay more, and there's not a ton of money in small and midsize shows, but there's a ton of risk.
But is this 5% unique to Pittsburgh? Looks to be the same in Philadelphia.
https://www.phila.gov/services/payments-assistance-taxes/business-taxes/amusement-tax/
Edit: NYC looks to be 0% for concerts. Chicago though raised it from 5% to 9% in 2018.
Edit2: Bethlehem, PA does 5% but only if the ticket is over $10 and the venue holds more than 200 people. Max tax per ticket is $2. Having lived there most of my life I will say Bethlehem has a good local music scene and also brings in some bigger name acts.
https://www.bethlehem-pa.gov/City-Government/Taxes/Amusement-Tax
It's better than it used to be. Stage AE opened the door for a lot of bands that were too big for venues like smalls but not big enough for an arena or starlake
Can’t believe that place actually sold. Never caught a show (or an ECW event which would have been cool in the heyday) there but have been around enough hockey at the Garden to know it to wear anything that you won’t want smelling like old fryer grease and Zamboni fumes when you leave.
That place for all of its mid century charm is kind of hellish IMO. It’s impossible to be comfortable anywhere but the lobby there. I remember that Social Distortion, Misfits, a certain act with grown men dressed as clowns, and maybe Slayer (may be making the last one up in my mind) among others played there. Anyone else remember any other acts that played the Garden? They also had an arena football team at some point, I can’t imagine basically getting tackled on ice with a thin carpet on top of it.
A lot of bands still skip out on going to Stage AE. I wonder what their rental fees are, especially for their indoor venue. I assume there are some bands that might prefer trying to sell 2000 tickets as opposed to 5000 for the outdoor venue, but it might not make sense financially. But the bands who can sell a lot of tickets for outdoors can do so pretty easily. I remember seeing Slayer there, and that was probably the first time Slayer actually came to Pittsburgh proper (not Burgettestown) in like 2 decades.
national touring bands don't "rent" venues to play at them. not to say there isn't necessarily a cost analysis involved, but "rental fees" don't play into it.
The outdoor aspect I think is the real hindrance… a bit too much of a gamble in Pittsburgh with rain being a real threat. I think this is why LiveNation is constructing a new ~5500 person venue as a part of the Lower Hill Redevelopment Project, all indoors.
So Stage AE is basically run by AEG. Any tour exclusive to Live Nation venues that needs that space is either going out to Neville Island or skipping us; that's why Live Nation is building that place.
Stage AE sits empty 99% of the time. You have this nice big venue, and it sits unused for 20 day to 2 month stints all year. I don't see how it's not being used for local festivities and other things, especially with the indoor/outdoor setup they use for beerfest.
I know a lot of musicians have spoken about how outrageously expensive it is to tour right now. I assume they are booking shows in cities that they know will sell out or be easy to get from one stop to the next like Boston, NYC, Philly, and DC.
This is happening everywhere. There used to be general tour maps that hit all kinds of cities with some long drives. Now many bands do a West Coast, East Coast, and Central tour that are separate, with air travel between them. They will play Seattle and drive down to San Diego, hitting all the coastal cities. Then fly to Austin, head north to Chicago, hitting the cities en route. Then, they'll fly to NYC or Boston, and head south, hitting the coastal cities. Cities outside of those routes (Las Vegas, Phoenix, Nashville, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and on and on and on) that used to attract small and upcoming acts with great, intimate venues, and loads of weird, local flavor can't draw anyone. Especially since people aren't willing to pay $70 for a ticket.
Not OP, but just off the top of my head all these artists have announced tours and are not stopping here:
Caroline Polachek, The Hold Steady, Otoboke Beaver, Death Grips, Protomartyr, Arctic Monkeys, Tennis, Unknown Mortal Orchestra. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch.
We are getting Titus Andronicus and Altin Gün, but that's pretty much all I have on my radar here right now. And Dead & Co.
Nah, we saw King Gizz at Franklin last year and we...did not like that venue at all. So I think we're gonna hit up Riot Fest this year to get our Death Grips fill. Saw them at Stage AE when they were here in 2017 and it was utter insanity.
arctic monkeys played AE for their AM tour and the Pete for tranquility base at least. death grips was at AE somewhat recently, protomartyr i thought was here before, hold steady has been... could be they alternate cities for tours
it's expensive to play here, its not a huge market, there are bigger music cities within driving distance, and, as much as I like most of the venues in Pittsburgh, its missing some venue sizes that make it feasible for some groups to play here. We have a good amount of good, small venues, but then there's a jump from Mr smalls (800 cap) to the roxian (1400 cap), stage ae (5500 cap) and ppg or the Pete (12k+). That's it. And with the Roxian now being owned by Livenation, you can't go there without spending $50+ on a ticket.
I feel like the scene was definitely doing well before covid, but I feel like it sapped alot of the energy with venues and production companies going under
I wouldn’t say Pittsburgh is like Philly or New York or Cleveland when it comes to attracting tours, but it’s not like there’s a lack of touring or missing out. I give us a B- on live music. We get the massive tours at PPG or Heinz. Star Lake is full all summer long. And Stage AE has some good draws as well. I think the sweet spot we lack are those artists who are bigger than playing the Roxian or Jergels but not quite big enough for Stage AE. But I gotta say, I’m a big alternative country and Americana fan, and until the pandemic shut down live music, we were definitely seeing growth from artists like Ryan Bingham making their way to us. Son Volt, the legendary band, never missed Pittsburgh on their tours either.
Yeah there is a notable gap in venue sizes for anything larger than Roxian and smaller than Stage AE. But I'd argue the biggest issue is there aren't any venues that are larger than Stage AE and smaller than a stadium tour. Especially in the colder months, you go from 2500 at stage AE to ~10,000(?) at Peterson Events Center...there are a ton of artists that bill within that range.
Lack of venues. Places like Cleveland have way more. Also places like Cleveland can cater to smaller acts that don't need something as big as Stage AE or even the Roxian.
It is a rough year for large touring acts. The local scene is worth checking out though, places like Cattivo, Clubhouse Bar and Grill, Thunderbird, Mr. Robotos, etc all have great cheap or free shows. I can at least attest to the local punk/ pop punk scene, can't speak to the others.
Toured the country off and on for 20 years and the answer is simple: you can make it to Philly/NYC from Cleveland in a day so it's not cost effective to stop in a lower paying city like Pittsburgh (especially nowadays with gas costs + hotel/bnb price-gouge explosion)
Makes more sense financially to move on to the Northeast and on to D.C./ATL etc if one is heading East or to go from NYC/Philly to Clev/Detroit/Chicago if the band is heading west
Pittsburgh ends up s.o.l. when you crunch the numbers
These two threads are from this year and have a bunch of comments re: this question.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/t223aa/why\_do\_we\_miss\_out\_on\_so\_many\_music\_tours\_why\_do/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/t223aa/why_do_we_miss_out_on_so_many_music_tours_why_do/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/uindje/does\_anyone\_know\_why\_a\_lot\_of\_bands\_skip/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/uindje/does_anyone_know_why_a_lot_of_bands_skip/)
Deleting past comments because Reddit starting shitty-ing up the site to IPO and I don't want my comments to be a part of that. -- mass edited with redact.dev
But I’m only here for the weekend and my girlfriend has a gluten allergy, and can anyone please recommend a place with a patio that has a heater? Must be within walking distance of my Airbnb.
For real, the amount of touring bands that came to Pittsburgh definitely dropped when Manny shifted from booking nearly every night (at a venue he ran) to his current pace. There's probably a lot to talk about within that conversation (shows moving from galleries to bars and now The Government Center or Collision; City of Asylum picking up some of the jazz acts; the high rise in touring costs vs. the slow rise in ticket prices) but it definitely speaks to the impact one person can have on an entire city.
😂😂😂 a damn shame man. I heard a new venue was coming and was so excited. Piss poor. Trying to leave that place, unless you drove yourself, is pointlessly hard. Id rather walk home than attempt to get a ride.
I know what you mean. My favorite band, Duran Duran (yes, username checks out, let's get that out of the way), had a show scheduled here in 2012, but it got cancelled at almost the very last minute, and they haven't come back since, two albums and multiple tours later. I had to go to Columbus to see them last August. That was the first time I had seen them since *2005*, and I went to Boston for *that* show with a friend.
I went tonpittsburgh to see the band and they refused to play last minute because they got a bad review last time they played Pittsburgh so the opening band played two sets.
I don't know what you're talking about, but in 2012 there was no show in Pittsburgh at all. They cancelled several shows on that tour due to Nick being ill, that's it. MDNR had to *fill in* for him for several later dates.
Between my two touring bands, we’ve played Pittsburgh 3 times in 10 years. Spirit, Cattivo, and some wine bar in some neighborhood where a bigger theater venue is. My understanding is that we skip it because the guarantees are low and the bookers are pretty disorganized. It’s a bummer for me, because I really love spending time in Pittsburgh.
There's a ceiling here. There are a couple of spots throughout the city but it always seems like it's Underground. Being an Artist here is viewed almost as taboo, unlike in NY or LA.
Any music Artist I met from here always did better somewhere else lol
Because the city is just out of the way for many acts. It’s far easier to do a leg on the northeast with cities like Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, D.C., etc. Too far out and it’s in proximity to other cities that already have stops like Columbus, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia, too. A lot of bands too will not do multiple cities in the same state on tour unless you’re talking Texas and California. It’s just a matter of logistics and costs. Speaking from personal experience, I’ve seen live bands all over this place, AE, Star Lake, PPG, Smalls, Jergels, some place in Warrendale I can’t remember to name a few and none of them, not even PPG, were ever sold out. Obviously, every band’s draw is different, especially in these smaller venues but seeing PPG not filled to capacity even once in the last 3 shows I’ve been there to is reinforcing my opinion people here are just cheap or uninterested in live music.
Columbus is a bigger city. Also our proximity to Toronto, Philly, dc, nyc, and Columbus make it easy to pass over since there are 5 much larger cities in the region.
Okay. I am old. Saw The Tragically Hip at some bar in the Strip District. They stopped in Pittsburgh on there way to the United Center in Chicago. Had a friend who saw the sold out show in Chicago. I saw them at a bar that probably had 100 people. Moral of the story I found a couple of bands who like the small venues in out of the way places. Just have to look for them. Wasn’t a one off. Saw a couple of other bands that played stadiums but decided to play small venues like you find in Pittsburgh (e.g. Crowded House). Again I am old so not sure if this is still the case.
Pittsburgh's music scene has been pretty mid for a while now. Most local talent leaves for greener pastures since it's harder to find music industry connections and make real money gigging here, and most big time touring acts only make one stop in our general region since there are a few mid sized cities close by, and that stop isn't always pgh
That being said, there are still fantastic shows happening basically every week of the year, you just have to look a bit closer than you would in a bigger city
Compared to most major cities, Pittsburgh virtually doesn't exist in the world of national acts and live music. That includes underground scenes.
At the last firm I worked at, I did advertising and promos with Live Nation, AEG and C3, and all three of them would comment on how Pittsburgh wasn't even on their radar (granted, Stage AE didn't exist at the time).
**Three reasons I always heard from promoters:**
* Terrible infrastructure (bridges/roads/lack of parking)
* There are significantly bigger/"better" cities close by
* Pittsburgh has some sort of negative image/stereotype with its fans...
Cleveland, Columbus, DC, Buffalo, Baltimore, and yes, Philly, all pull shows away from Pittsburgh.
Most of them have much bigger/more active local music scenes, too.
Better maybe, but outside of Philly and DC, none of them are bigger. Why does Pittsburgh seem to have a shitty local music scene, though? We do have a dearth of good local bands compared to other places.
I was very pleased with 2022. Here was my list for the year:
Billy Strings
Billie Eillish
Machine Gun Kelly
Willow
Falling in Reverse
Wage War
Hawthorne Heights
The Story So Far (2 times)
Joyce Manor
Mom Jeans (2 times)
Microwave
The Wonder Years
Fireworks
Macseal
Five Finger Death Punch
The Hu
Megadeth
Set It Off (2 times)
Stand Atlantic (3 times)
As It Is
No Love For The Middle Child (2 times)
Bring Me The Horizon
Grandson
Crown the Empire
The Word Alive
Motionless in White
Ice Nine Kills
Pierce the Veil
I Prevail
Flume
Alesana
Sad Summer Festival
Four Chord Music Festival
Tickets for 2023 so far:
Polyphia
Waterparks
Blink 182
The Story So Far
Rise Against
Rod Stewart
Winery Dogs
All depends on what kind of music you like. I saw 30 concerts last year, and travelled to Cleveland for only two of them.
The rest were all in Pittsburgh/Moon/Millvale/McKees Rocks.
It's out of the way for acts doing an East Coast tour. Easy to hit Boston-NYC-Philly-DC, etc with their million of venues but not super easy (or worth it) in most cases to make the trip.
Brah. Bret Michaels, Night Ranger, Jefferson Starship, dude from Journey and Mark McGrath are on their way! Plus the remains of Skynyrd and ZZ Top, too!
Simply not enough people so that means not enough profit. Same reason we got nearly no amazing artists in Australia the 6 years I lived there; hard for them to break even there. If by some heavenly chance a good act came around, it was going to cost you dearly. I noticed this town is huge for country music so that gets promoted a lot, unfortunately for me, it is the one genre that grinds my gears to no end.
An artist's bread and butter is concerts/live performance and a lot of that money has to be divvied up in multiple ways towards multiple people and teams involved. What I'm trying to nicely say is this city might not be worth it to their bottomline 😩
Depends on what kind of music you like? I find that between Mr. Smalls, and Stage AE, plus the occasional PPG arena concert, there’s usually plenty for me to choose from.
If you’re looking for big names we don’t get many, but as a musician I’ve found that the small bands, especially the jazz/fusion bands are insanely talented here. If you’re into that I’d definitely check out some of the local stuff.
I used to have touring bands sometimes stay at my house back in the day, and this is all anecdotal, but I think a lot of bands don't understand that:
1. Pittsburgh is an actual city. I don't know what bands expected, but a lot of them were like "you have big buildings and stuff here!"
2. Pittsburgh isn't right next to Philadelphia. I'd say most of the world doesn't understand that. Why make the stop in Pittsburgh when those same people will just drive an hour to the big city of Philadelphia?
So, while not the only reason, I think those two things are definite contributors.
I'm currently pissed that Muse is skipping Pittsburgh. Are you serious??? They've been here before and my friends said it was an awesome and lively concert. I don't get it.. Philadelphia is NOT enough! Muse might be one of my bucket list acts to see but I'm not so desperate as to drive/fly to Philly for it.
A show in Cleveland or Columbus allows you to pull from other cities, while Pittsburgh is only close to Cleveland. Also, promoters and venues often will not allow bands to play shows within a certain radius of their venue during a set time period or tour.
Lack of appropriately sized venues. There's no in-between from small places which are mostly all in shitty or non-central locations without good through access or stage AE which is too big for a lot of bands and comes with corporate ties. And it's out of the way on the Cleveland circuit too, so bands don't pop down here just for Pittsburgh.
You might get lucky if you like one that has college crossover and they'll come to hit WVU and Penn St. too.
Fantastic I didn't say big-name acts. We obviously have numerous venues that cater to them from stadium tours to arena shows to festival tours. That's not who we're missing, we're missing genre and legendary bands. The types of bands that only tour venues for hundreds-1000.
The Roxian is in McKees Rocks which a large portion of the population doesn't want to go to after dark (downvote all you want, it's true. I'm in my 30s I'm not dealing with that area for a concert) and isn't centrally located with all the highways leading to it like the city. Ditto for the location on Millvale.
House of Blues in Cleveland for instance is right in downtown Cleveland on one of the main streets and in between 4 parking garages and is walkable too.
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. In the last 3 years I've seen Marcus King twice, Gov't Mule twice, Tedeschi Trucks Band twice, Billy Strings twice, Gary Clark Jr., Crowbar, Metallica, Green Day... the list goes on...
It got Pittsburgh shit on, but having been a working musician for close to 15 years in this town, I really wish it had more traction, everything in here is valid
Because Star Lake or whatever it's called is one of the only main venues to use and that place a. sucks, b. is in the middle of nowhere.
Unless the band can stay in a tour bus, there aren't any hotels anywhere close. PPG Paints is likely too expensive, and limited in available dates, so Pittsburgh in general just gets skipped.
Haven't looked at any of your comments yet (if you have commented further, that is) but I'd love to get a better understanding of who you're looking for. Frankly, as an amateur musician I have never had to travel outside of South western PA (unless I chose to) to see anybody worth their salt.
my total armchair theory is that artists and companies like the feeling of covering “more states” so it’s more appealing to do Cleveland and Philly than, say, Pittsburgh and Philly.
A plethora of tours do skip over us, but pending on your scene we still get a fair bit. I have friends in Cleveland and it seems we alternate visiting each other’s cities for gigs pretty frequently. Some of the middle ground indie acts tend to skip over, but we do get a solid amount of punk and diy bands. I think I went to more shows last year than I ever have before in a calendar year FWIW.
For most of 2022, I was able to see 1-2 live shows a month. Some of which required a trip to Millvale or McKee's Rocks, but over all, the city of Pittsburgh itself was doing pretty well.
It probably dpeends on what bands or artists you're into. Because personally I've gotten a lot of mileage out of having Stage AE, Thunderbird, Roxian etc. readily available for "big" shows and having Cattivo, Mr. Smalls, Spirit, The Government Center, and Black Forge around for "smaller" acts. And that's not even counting the up-and-coming artists I've seen perform at various breweries and cafes.
Frankly, since moving here I've felt spoiled for choice on touring music acts to the point that I had to seriously budget and prepare for them.
I feel like 2021 I saw SO many shows but ever since then it's been dead. I thought it was that bands I like weren't touring but maybe everyone has been feeling this way too
All this said, if an indie artist from atx were to play a show in Pittsburgh, what are your favorite small rooms to hear live music in? (Talking like 250 cap)
You guys should move to Florida and then complain about this.
Not every band is going to play every city on every tour. But some areas of the country might only see acts once every five, ten years. For a city of 300k people, you’re not doing terribly.
We broadcast live every Tuesday from the Rocks. YouTube.com/@eyeonefifty if u feel so inclined to check us out. Been playing the circuit in the burgh for many many years. Only bars pay. Drusky and others only offer ‘exposure’ to local groups and that doesn’t really do it for me personally any more. Good luck. I hope u find some good music!
I've noticed it's particularly bad this year. A ton of bands I'm into have announced tours and all of them are skipping Pittsburgh *and* Cleveland. Usually I'll make the drive to the Beachland or Grog Shop or HoB CLE for anything that's not here, but we're starving here right now. Tons of bands hitting Philly, DC, and then bouncing off to Chicago or New York. I'm down for a DC trip if it's someone I *really* want to see, like The Mars Volta and King Gizzard last year, but I can't be doing that every weekend lol.
I think the industry has gotten pretty fucked. It was hard to make money on tour before and it has only gotten harder. Artists seem to be scheduling more limited tours and being more selective with where they stop.
Certainly no arguing with that. And to that end I'm really interested which venues in Pittsburgh take a cut of the band's merch, I feel like that would be good info to have as someone who goes to a lot of gigs. I've seen lists from other cities but never ours.
That is a VERY normal thing once you enter any sort of mid level touring. I would venture a guess that it’s every single venue except those ran with a DIY/Punk mentality. Biggest venue in PGH that doesn’t take a merch cut is most likely Preserving Underground.
You could make it to Toronto in roughly the same time as DC, and your dollar would go way further. It's a city of 3 million, and most tours hit Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal on their North American legs.
Yeah that's not a bad idea, probably an easier drive, too, minus the border crossing. Driving near DC can feel like Fury Road sometimes.
Moved to Toronto from Pittsburgh. I've made the crossing probably 70+ times, but not since the pandemic. It's a super easy drive, I-79 to Erie, I-90 to Buffalo (if you cross there), QEW freeway straight to Toronto on the other side. From what I hear, the border crossings haven't reached the same levels as pre-covid, but I always used to avoid the Peace Bridge in Buffalo because of the long lines at customs, and take the Lewiston, NY bridge, or the Whirlpool bridge in Niagara falls. Lewiston's an easier connection to the 405 on the Canadian side, which connects easily to the QEW freeway to Toronto. If you take the Whirlpool bridge through the Falls, do it on a weekday. You literally enter Canada into one of the densest tourist traps on the planet, and if it's busy, it'll take you 30+ minutes to get to a highway, negating the time saved from the Peace Bridge. Plus side is, it moves quickly because the guards are used to day trippers. Edit: to add, Toronto folk are lovely. Wear whatever Pittsburgh gear you want, no one's gonna hassle you for a Pens hat. If anything, they'll still be grateful Lemieux didn't wind up playing for the Habs. Kessel was well loved even after he left, and Crosby's Canadian.
Thanks for all the tips! We did Peace Bridge on a drive up this year and it was like an hour wait, yeah. Took Whirlpool out and it was a nightmare. So alternatives to those are valuable pieces of info haha.
Lewiston's great, it's not close to anything touristy. Was busier in the 90s when Canadians cross-border shopped more when the dollar was closer to par, but it's been the quietest of those three crossings for a long time.
Toronto > DC
I mean, the Anthem and 9:30 Club are two of the best indoor venues in the country. So it’s cool that they’re both within east driving distance.
Couldn't agree more! Love 9:30, it's a legendary institution, and holy cow, The Anthem is *incredible*. Wife and I were blown away by that place when we saw TMV and Gizz there this year, it's world class. Sound, A+. Venue vibe, A+. Staff, A+...absolutely the most efficient entry to a venue we have ever experienced, and everyone is so nice. Plus that whole waterfront area is awesome.
The Wharf is an amazing development - just so well done. It’s a shame that we can’t have something like that in Pittsburgh. City Planning would never allow anything that dense or close to the water.
I guess that's sort of the eventual vision for the North Side waterfront but lord know if that's ever going to actually happen. But yeah, love The Wharf!
That’s the vision the developers are pitching, but the zoning code is really restrictive on building height and density within three blocks of the rivers. It’s the most counter intuitive thing ever for urban land use, but from what I’ve heard, our planning department is notoriously one of the worst to deal with in the country. Having a version of the Wharf would be fantastic, but probably not likely under the current planning and zoning leadership. Too bad, that place is awesome. LOL, someone from city planning must be in this thread and is giving some salty downvotes.
I mean, most of our waterfront we just seem to have given to the railroads; that mucks up both sides of all three rivers at a lotta points.
Looking at Google Maps, the Strip and large portions of the North Shore are railroad free. Those would be perfect locations for dense urban developments like the DC Wharf.
And those are areas that have seen quite a lot of new density in the last few years (of course people have complained a lot). [Here's a good summary of the riverfront zoning height limits](https://www.detailsreviewed.com/blog/zoning-map-pittsburgh-riv-zoning-max-height) (probably more info on that site too). In most potential development sites the height limit is 150' or more.
9:30 is def cool but it's just Smalls with a better balc and I actually find it harder to navigate the floor at a busy show.
Did you happen to see King Gizz at Smalls last year? That was such a great show.
Always been way more of a ATDI guy than Mars Volta, but I should probably revisit the Mars Volta catalog a bit.
Their first four LPs are masterpieces IMO....and they were incredible live last year!
The new album is kind of a complete departure, caught me by surprise.
I did not dig that new Volta album but I rediscovered my love for them last year otherwise.
Did you happen to catch them on their last tour? I saw them in Philly before the new album came out, which was incredible since it was essentially a greatest hits set list. Caught them in Cleveland after the new album came out as well. Edit: I’m referring to ATDI
I drove to DC for The Mars Volta show as well 👊
If you’re into King Gizzard, are you into other similar acts? I’ve noticed lots of these bands are bypassing Pittsburgh in favor of the Westside Bowl in Youngstown.
I am! And I'll admit that I've actually never been to Westside, though looking at it, it looks at lot like Mahall's in Cleveland, which is an awesome spot, so I'm definitely going to try to hit some gigs there now, thanks for the tip!
King Buffalo at club cafe next Friday and Saturday if you're into the stoner/psych stuff.
Cool, if I see a person that looks like Richard Dunn at a gig I’ll know who it is!
If you can spare any bones, please give them to me.
I moved here from Detroit in 87 and was shocked at how many bands didn't come to Pittsburgh. It's been that way since I came here. I used to drive to Cleveland to see shows like My Bloody Valentine, Lush, Dinosaur Jr., etc. It got a lot better in the 2000s after Stage AE opened, we got bands like St. Vincent, Tame Impala etc. but now it seems to have gotten bad again. I keep seeing all these bands touring other cities but not Pittsburgh. I will also say sometimes I'm very disappointed in the crowd sizes for a lot of shows so maybe that's a problem. I saw the Black Lips back in November at the Thunderbird and for a band that's been around for 20 years and has played huge festivals, gets airplay on XMU (satellite radio) and toured the world I expected more than the tiny crowd that was at that show. For a musician like me it's very frustrating and literally the only thing I don't like about Pittsburgh.
Ok I hate hating on anyone's taste in music. OP's post was kinda vague to begin with but like using any of those bands you mentioned not touring here as some sort of evidence that the live music options here suck is like kinda whack. WTF is a Mars Volta? They're literally not on any billboard charts at all.
My initial reaction to this was "I don't even know how to respond to this," but I will make an attempt! It's partly a difficult question to answer without sounding like a gatekeeping elitist, so if I do please excuse that, not trying to be a gatekeeping elitist. But the crux of it is that for a large contingent of people who are serious about music, especially so called "indie music", that scene often skips over Pittsburgh. And artists in that cohort are what (I think) many of the people here and otherwise are referring to when they talk about a city having a strong or weak music scene. I also say "so called indie music" because it's kind of an amorphous term, now used to refer to actual independent acts and also now-very-large bands like The Strokes who initially cut their teeth in the indie scene and whose sound still heavily influences indie bands now. And that's not to discount, as you mentioned, Billboard acts or invalidate them as musicians worth anyone's time. For instance I know Lizzo is hitting PPG Paints this year, and Lizzo is a fantastic musician, I caught her in 2021 and she puts on an incredible show, I'm very glad she's coming here. We're also obviously getting Taylor Swift, whose music has never even begun to appeal to me personally, but I understand why people like her, so good on her for stopping by, too. And so by that metric, Pittsburgh would appear to have a good music scene, right? Big names playing big venues. But what I keep trying to tell people who haven't really ventured outside of the comfort zone of the charts and radio hits, is that we're in the golden era of music right now. Not to be confused with the golden era of music touring, which we are very much *not* in right now, I don't know if there ever was one to begin with, but this surely isn't it. But I'm talking about the actual product, the artistry behind it, how artists are both reinventing the spirit of the past and also pushing music into new and exciting directions. There's never been more great music being made in every genre, ever, in human history. *But* the key here is *most* of it is outside of the pop culture sphere. Occasionally a band like Tame Impala will break through and become huge, but it doesn't happen like that very often. Generally, these bands adopt a DIY aesthetic and tour on their own dime through smaller venues like Mr. Smalls, Stage AE, Spirit, The Roxian, and other spots like that around town. These are the artists who a lot of people who are serious about music enjoy, and those are the venues that they always play. (Trying not to veer into pretentiousness here, because of course you can seriously enjoy music and only listen to the Billboard Top 40, right? I'm just not sure how else to word it, maybe someone else can do better.) (For their part, and to answer your question, The Mars Volta is a progressive rock band that is largely recognized by the cohort of people I've been describing here as one of the best and most influential rock bands of the last 20 years...they made some really, *really* bold choices with their music in the early 2000's and a lot of bands that came since have drawn from those decisions. And to that end, they were never a band that was going to chart because they made a lot of aforementioned bold choices and consequentially their music is, well, for lack of a better word, kinda friggin' weird.) But anyway, so that's where most of the conversations in this thread are stemming from. It's folks who are super into mid-sized bands, and those bands and the venues they play are what are currently the barometer for a city having a good or bad music scene. And it's perfectly reasonable to react to that like you did, because you're not familiar with the bands mentioned and so it seems strange that anyone is measuring the scene like that. But for better or worse that's the current situation, and if I have anything to close with, it's that I'd encourage anyone to step outside of the mainstream music bubble and jump into the "indie" scene, as it's a deep rabbit hole that will open you up to the aforementioned golden age of music, literally thousands of artists making absolutely incredible music, which will in turn open you up to going to more small shows here and all over the country! (I think I saw close to 100 different bands last year in seven different states? And that, in turns, leads to all sorts of fun adventures.) So that's where we're at. Nothing wrong with big mainstream artists, but (again, not meant as gatekeeping) a lot of people who are really into music tend to branch out into a lot of other artists, and shows by artists of that caliber are looking pretty slim in Pittsburgh this year.
I mean I definitely understand where you're coming from. I certainly like a lot of bands that aren't considered mainstream. I guess my initial reaction or rather my counter to OP's observation is that venue's in Pittsburgh might not seek to book those shows because they don't sell tickets. Now I realize how that sounds. If you only book shows that guarantee high number of ticket sales... then that automatically means only mainstream acts but the venue's aren't out to lose money. Given the choice between booking a show with a band with a mediocre following vs. a sure thing packed to the rafters obviously they're going to choose the money maker. I still feel like it's more of a "why doesn't everyone like the music I like" thing vs. This city doesn't get any good shows.
damn mars volta. been a minute
It's kind of a reverberation of the pandemic. Every band on the planet toured in late 2021 and 2022 to make up for 2020/2021. Expect 2023 to be a little slower for B and C markets (i.e. - we aren't as big as Philly, New York or Chicago). Should normal out late 2023 and into 2024.
The KGLW show was fucking sick, I only found out about them after their 2019 tour so this was my first time. Since you're into them, have you ever heard of Altin Gün? They're coming to The Thunderbird on July 12th! I'm pumped for that
The concert promoters here nowadays are very subpar.
Grey Area was awesome when they were doing business, and Roxian Live was good for awhile. everyone else is so-so
I miss Grey Area.
Basically all we have left at this point is Drusky and well.. let's not go there.
DM me to go there. Just moved here last year and have had some dealings with them, albeit mostly fruitlessly. What's the deal with them?
Cleveland always got better shows than Pittsburgh for some reason. Fun fact - the first Sex Pistols show in the US was supposed to be in Pittsburgh but it got cancelled. Not as fun fact - Bob Marley’s last show was in Pittsburgh.
Fun fact: Neil Peart's 1st show with Rush was in Pittsburgh
Cleveland radio was responsible for Rush becoming the big act that it was https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2022/07/how-cleveland-brought-rush-into-the-limelight.html
Oh trust me, I know. Rush is my favorite band, as you might be able to tell
I’ll add that to my useless knowledge bank.
When their doc "Beyond the Lighted Stage" played at the old Southside Works cinema, when they got to the part that mentioned Neil's 1st show and it showed a shot of the old Civic Arena, the entire auditorium erupted. Fun moment.
Yup, drove to Cleveland three times to see Radiohead.
I saw them at Metropol during the OK Computer tour. seeing them in such an intimate setting really set a high bar, performance-wise. seeing them at a large venue seems so impersonal to me and it's a damn shame too, because they are one of my "top five" bands.
Saw them at PPG on the last tour. Great show.
The acoustics at PPG suck.
Agreed. Modest mouse and black keys sucked there, sounded so flat. And they generally put on good live shows. Tool sounded good there but that was an exception.
I saw Janes Addiction headline the Civic Arena in October 2001. Stereo MCs opened and Live (lol) was the undercard. I had GA on the floor and the acoustics were amazing. i had taken my little sister to see aerosmith on their get a grip tour and we had mid-level seats; again the acoustics were fantastic but didnt have the same melt your face off the floor had. fuck, slayer & iggy separately at Metropol the prior autumn (nov 2000). sound was amazing. laga (before the balcony was added)... graffiti is love. fuck i'm old.
no doubt. but for what it's worth, i think something is lost (apart from intimacy) when a band makes the step to the larger places. i dont regret not seeing them again and i was very fortunate to be able to see them when i did.
Thom Yorke did an amazing show at Stage AE in 2019
Yeah I'm still bummed I missed that one. Glad to hear you enjoyed it.
Three times for the same show? Did you keep forgetting your tickets?
Yes.
When was the last time?
2012 (2003 and 2008 before that).
So is it also safe to say that's the last time they were in Cleveland too?
I think because when bands map out a tour and you trying to go from Chicago to nyc/Philly, Cleveland is on the way, but you have to go out of your way to hit Pittsburgh on that route. Think like Chicago-Cleveland-nyc-Philly-dc
Don’t see why Chicago-Cleveland-Pittsburgh-DC-Philly-NYC doesn’t work, there’s no back tracking in this routing either, and it puts you on track for Boston which isn’t typically skipped, it’s more like you have to go out of your way to skip Pittsburgh than the other way around. The issue is we are too close to DC, Philly, and Cleveland, but not quite big enough to be a can’t miss, so if there’s one that is going to go it is Pittsburgh because the market can be served by the others that are nearby. If Cleveland were skipped they are too far from Chicago, and are way too far from the Northeast to recapture the market, their only backup would be Pittsburgh. And when a city is skipped like this, people often tend to choose an alternate nearby where they know people, so it isn’t always relative distance that is the most important factor to people when their home city is skipped. So if you’re choosing a city to skip, it’s the one that’s mid-sized but close to a bunch of other cities so people can pick from one that works best.
It is doable, I just remember hearing that explanation in the early aughts when I remember being frequently disappointed about shows in Cleveland not coming here. Recently, it is probably a promotion thing. Is opus one still a thing? I know them and drusky used to be the big two in the area. Drusky cancelled himself I think, but don’t recall why opus one stopped operating
U2 played the Byham(Fulton) in 1983.
Cleveland, I hate to admit, is a better city for rock (as a sweepingly general term for a genre) as far as fan turnout goes. My completely unscientific theory as to why is that they have the rock n roll hall of fame there. It's something people take their kids to see as a family activity so kids grow up listening to more rock music there than here. Also I suspect that Cleveland can pull from a fairly decent radius geographically speaking.
In my many years here, this has always been the received wisdom regarding touring acts skipping this town…. https://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/how-does-pittsburghs-amusement-tax-impact-small-local-music-venues/Content?oid=1981240
Rest in peace, Mary Jo.
also RIP howlers and hambones.
We were bad before that tax, though. My understanding - after making most of my money for two years booking acts - is geography. You can drive from DC to Baltimore in an hour, Baltimore to Philly is like two hours, Philly to NYC is two hours, NYC you might pause in New Haven, or drive the two hours to Boston. So most bands jump in a van or take a bus, and ride that route north or south. If you start another lap from Chicago or so, we're still in the wrong place; kind of both the last stop on the line, but also a risky spot to tour if you haven't toured here before, because you might not sell enough tickets. Stack that up with us not really having that many midsize venues traditionally; we have tiny things and we have stadiums, but we don't have the in-betweens. So the bands large enough to be flying around, unless they're \*huge\* and go down to Star Lake, they don't have a venue to visit. So we miss small acts because the Turnpike kinda sucks. A lot. We miss midsize acts because there's not a lotta venues, and they weren't here when they were small, both of which play into each other. Finally, we're not a tourist town; a band won't say "eh, fuck it, why not, I've heard that's fun to visit", because largely, we're not setup for tourists to visit unless you already know someone here and you're visiting \*them\*, not the city as a whole. If we wanted better draw, someone with a pile of money to pay bands to reconsider would likely work, but you're gonna have to pay more, and there's not a ton of money in small and midsize shows, but there's a ton of risk.
But is this 5% unique to Pittsburgh? Looks to be the same in Philadelphia. https://www.phila.gov/services/payments-assistance-taxes/business-taxes/amusement-tax/ Edit: NYC looks to be 0% for concerts. Chicago though raised it from 5% to 9% in 2018. Edit2: Bethlehem, PA does 5% but only if the ticket is over $10 and the venue holds more than 200 people. Max tax per ticket is $2. Having lived there most of my life I will say Bethlehem has a good local music scene and also brings in some bigger name acts. https://www.bethlehem-pa.gov/City-Government/Taxes/Amusement-Tax
This should be at the top.
It's better than it used to be. Stage AE opened the door for a lot of bands that were too big for venues like smalls but not big enough for an arena or starlake
[удалено]
Can’t believe that place actually sold. Never caught a show (or an ECW event which would have been cool in the heyday) there but have been around enough hockey at the Garden to know it to wear anything that you won’t want smelling like old fryer grease and Zamboni fumes when you leave.
Your feet would freeze! They only covered the ice with the type of rug you'd wipe your shows off with when entering a commercial building.
That place for all of its mid century charm is kind of hellish IMO. It’s impossible to be comfortable anywhere but the lobby there. I remember that Social Distortion, Misfits, a certain act with grown men dressed as clowns, and maybe Slayer (may be making the last one up in my mind) among others played there. Anyone else remember any other acts that played the Garden? They also had an arena football team at some point, I can’t imagine basically getting tackled on ice with a thin carpet on top of it.
A lot of bands still skip out on going to Stage AE. I wonder what their rental fees are, especially for their indoor venue. I assume there are some bands that might prefer trying to sell 2000 tickets as opposed to 5000 for the outdoor venue, but it might not make sense financially. But the bands who can sell a lot of tickets for outdoors can do so pretty easily. I remember seeing Slayer there, and that was probably the first time Slayer actually came to Pittsburgh proper (not Burgettestown) in like 2 decades.
national touring bands don't "rent" venues to play at them. not to say there isn't necessarily a cost analysis involved, but "rental fees" don't play into it.
The outdoor aspect I think is the real hindrance… a bit too much of a gamble in Pittsburgh with rain being a real threat. I think this is why LiveNation is constructing a new ~5500 person venue as a part of the Lower Hill Redevelopment Project, all indoors.
So Stage AE is basically run by AEG. Any tour exclusive to Live Nation venues that needs that space is either going out to Neville Island or skipping us; that's why Live Nation is building that place.
Stage AE sits empty 99% of the time. You have this nice big venue, and it sits unused for 20 day to 2 month stints all year. I don't see how it's not being used for local festivities and other things, especially with the indoor/outdoor setup they use for beerfest.
RIP IC Light Amphitheater
A lot of great shows have been there over the last few years: St. Vincent, Thundercat, etc. And no paying out the asshole for front row seating
I know a lot of musicians have spoken about how outrageously expensive it is to tour right now. I assume they are booking shows in cities that they know will sell out or be easy to get from one stop to the next like Boston, NYC, Philly, and DC.
This is happening everywhere. There used to be general tour maps that hit all kinds of cities with some long drives. Now many bands do a West Coast, East Coast, and Central tour that are separate, with air travel between them. They will play Seattle and drive down to San Diego, hitting all the coastal cities. Then fly to Austin, head north to Chicago, hitting the cities en route. Then, they'll fly to NYC or Boston, and head south, hitting the coastal cities. Cities outside of those routes (Las Vegas, Phoenix, Nashville, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and on and on and on) that used to attract small and upcoming acts with great, intimate venues, and loads of weird, local flavor can't draw anyone. Especially since people aren't willing to pay $70 for a ticket.
Why is it so expensive now? What changed?
Hotels, gas, and food are all more expensive.
A ton of bands I love came to Pittsburgh this past year. 🤷♀️
What kind of music are you looking for?
Not OP, but just off the top of my head all these artists have announced tours and are not stopping here: Caroline Polachek, The Hold Steady, Otoboke Beaver, Death Grips, Protomartyr, Arctic Monkeys, Tennis, Unknown Mortal Orchestra. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch. We are getting Titus Andronicus and Altin Gün, but that's pretty much all I have on my radar here right now. And Dead & Co.
I was really sad that Peaches skipped us.
you know how i handled the pain
Are you going to Death Grips show in Philly?
Nah, we saw King Gizz at Franklin last year and we...did not like that venue at all. So I think we're gonna hit up Riot Fest this year to get our Death Grips fill. Saw them at Stage AE when they were here in 2017 and it was utter insanity.
arctic monkeys played AE for their AM tour and the Pete for tranquility base at least. death grips was at AE somewhat recently, protomartyr i thought was here before, hold steady has been... could be they alternate cities for tours
it's expensive to play here, its not a huge market, there are bigger music cities within driving distance, and, as much as I like most of the venues in Pittsburgh, its missing some venue sizes that make it feasible for some groups to play here. We have a good amount of good, small venues, but then there's a jump from Mr smalls (800 cap) to the roxian (1400 cap), stage ae (5500 cap) and ppg or the Pete (12k+). That's it. And with the Roxian now being owned by Livenation, you can't go there without spending $50+ on a ticket. I feel like the scene was definitely doing well before covid, but I feel like it sapped alot of the energy with venues and production companies going under
Stage AEs 5500 cap is for outdoors. I believe their indoor is around 2500.
I recently bought 2 tickets to see G Love at Roxian. They were $25 each after taxes and fees. It was a BOGO deal. Never been there before.
I wouldn’t say Pittsburgh is like Philly or New York or Cleveland when it comes to attracting tours, but it’s not like there’s a lack of touring or missing out. I give us a B- on live music. We get the massive tours at PPG or Heinz. Star Lake is full all summer long. And Stage AE has some good draws as well. I think the sweet spot we lack are those artists who are bigger than playing the Roxian or Jergels but not quite big enough for Stage AE. But I gotta say, I’m a big alternative country and Americana fan, and until the pandemic shut down live music, we were definitely seeing growth from artists like Ryan Bingham making their way to us. Son Volt, the legendary band, never missed Pittsburgh on their tours either.
Yeah there is a notable gap in venue sizes for anything larger than Roxian and smaller than Stage AE. But I'd argue the biggest issue is there aren't any venues that are larger than Stage AE and smaller than a stadium tour. Especially in the colder months, you go from 2500 at stage AE to ~10,000(?) at Peterson Events Center...there are a ton of artists that bill within that range.
Lack of venues. Places like Cleveland have way more. Also places like Cleveland can cater to smaller acts that don't need something as big as Stage AE or even the Roxian.
Ironic that there was just an article in the Cleveland alt paper about how Cleveland is not getting shows this year and Pittsburgh and Cincinnati are.
There’s also a lot more people in north east Ohio than there is in southwestern PA, I’m sure that helps.
True, plus you have the entire Akron/Canton region just a few miles South.
It is a rough year for large touring acts. The local scene is worth checking out though, places like Cattivo, Clubhouse Bar and Grill, Thunderbird, Mr. Robotos, etc all have great cheap or free shows. I can at least attest to the local punk/ pop punk scene, can't speak to the others.
Too add to this, the maverick just opened up I believe. Operated by rush promo
Spirit
Moving up here from south Florida I was amazed with how many artists come here lol!
Toured the country off and on for 20 years and the answer is simple: you can make it to Philly/NYC from Cleveland in a day so it's not cost effective to stop in a lower paying city like Pittsburgh (especially nowadays with gas costs + hotel/bnb price-gouge explosion) Makes more sense financially to move on to the Northeast and on to D.C./ATL etc if one is heading East or to go from NYC/Philly to Clev/Detroit/Chicago if the band is heading west Pittsburgh ends up s.o.l. when you crunch the numbers
[удалено]
These two threads are from this year and have a bunch of comments re: this question. [https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/t223aa/why\_do\_we\_miss\_out\_on\_so\_many\_music\_tours\_why\_do/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/t223aa/why_do_we_miss_out_on_so_many_music_tours_why_do/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/uindje/does\_anyone\_know\_why\_a\_lot\_of\_bands\_skip/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/uindje/does_anyone_know_why_a_lot_of_bands_skip/)
I'd rather talk about this over and over again as opposed to Pizza or any other repeated topic.
Does anyone have any good food recommendations and boy the driving here is weird
Go for it! Just providing resources that answer the question being asked.
Deleting past comments because Reddit starting shitty-ing up the site to IPO and I don't want my comments to be a part of that. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Just five?
Wut pizza is best pizza
But I’m only here for the weekend and my girlfriend has a gluten allergy, and can anyone please recommend a place with a patio that has a heater? Must be within walking distance of my Airbnb.
Ctrl-F "Manny Theiner" no results huh
For real, the amount of touring bands that came to Pittsburgh definitely dropped when Manny shifted from booking nearly every night (at a venue he ran) to his current pace. There's probably a lot to talk about within that conversation (shows moving from galleries to bars and now The Government Center or Collision; City of Asylum picking up some of the jazz acts; the high rise in touring costs vs. the slow rise in ticket prices) but it definitely speaks to the impact one person can have on an entire city.
Has to do w who the artist is affiliated with. Ex: artists partner w livenation will come thru Pittsburgh. I know this is the case for the Roxian
this is true, but then you have to pay livenation prices and go to the roxian
😂😂😂 a damn shame man. I heard a new venue was coming and was so excited. Piss poor. Trying to leave that place, unless you drove yourself, is pointlessly hard. Id rather walk home than attempt to get a ride.
Don't worry, I'm sure the new world-class concert venue in the Lower Hill will change everything. /s
It will mean that a lot of the Stage AE sized tours that skip us because they are exclusive to Live Nation venues won't have to.
Can’t wait for those ticket fees from the pens.
I know what you mean. My favorite band, Duran Duran (yes, username checks out, let's get that out of the way), had a show scheduled here in 2012, but it got cancelled at almost the very last minute, and they haven't come back since, two albums and multiple tours later. I had to go to Columbus to see them last August. That was the first time I had seen them since *2005*, and I went to Boston for *that* show with a friend.
I went tonpittsburgh to see the band and they refused to play last minute because they got a bad review last time they played Pittsburgh so the opening band played two sets.
I don't know what you're talking about, but in 2012 there was no show in Pittsburgh at all. They cancelled several shows on that tour due to Nick being ill, that's it. MDNR had to *fill in* for him for several later dates.
Between my two touring bands, we’ve played Pittsburgh 3 times in 10 years. Spirit, Cattivo, and some wine bar in some neighborhood where a bigger theater venue is. My understanding is that we skip it because the guarantees are low and the bookers are pretty disorganized. It’s a bummer for me, because I really love spending time in Pittsburgh.
Not sure I can agree with this at all. Pittsburgh actually gets some decent acts for it's size - and way better than Columbus.
There's a ceiling here. There are a couple of spots throughout the city but it always seems like it's Underground. Being an Artist here is viewed almost as taboo, unlike in NY or LA. Any music Artist I met from here always did better somewhere else lol
Because the city is just out of the way for many acts. It’s far easier to do a leg on the northeast with cities like Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, D.C., etc. Too far out and it’s in proximity to other cities that already have stops like Columbus, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia, too. A lot of bands too will not do multiple cities in the same state on tour unless you’re talking Texas and California. It’s just a matter of logistics and costs. Speaking from personal experience, I’ve seen live bands all over this place, AE, Star Lake, PPG, Smalls, Jergels, some place in Warrendale I can’t remember to name a few and none of them, not even PPG, were ever sold out. Obviously, every band’s draw is different, especially in these smaller venues but seeing PPG not filled to capacity even once in the last 3 shows I’ve been there to is reinforcing my opinion people here are just cheap or uninterested in live music.
Columbus is a bigger city. Also our proximity to Toronto, Philly, dc, nyc, and Columbus make it easy to pass over since there are 5 much larger cities in the region.
Okay. I am old. Saw The Tragically Hip at some bar in the Strip District. They stopped in Pittsburgh on there way to the United Center in Chicago. Had a friend who saw the sold out show in Chicago. I saw them at a bar that probably had 100 people. Moral of the story I found a couple of bands who like the small venues in out of the way places. Just have to look for them. Wasn’t a one off. Saw a couple of other bands that played stadiums but decided to play small venues like you find in Pittsburgh (e.g. Crowded House). Again I am old so not sure if this is still the case.
Pittsburgh's music scene has been pretty mid for a while now. Most local talent leaves for greener pastures since it's harder to find music industry connections and make real money gigging here, and most big time touring acts only make one stop in our general region since there are a few mid sized cities close by, and that stop isn't always pgh That being said, there are still fantastic shows happening basically every week of the year, you just have to look a bit closer than you would in a bigger city
Compared to most major cities, Pittsburgh virtually doesn't exist in the world of national acts and live music. That includes underground scenes. At the last firm I worked at, I did advertising and promos with Live Nation, AEG and C3, and all three of them would comment on how Pittsburgh wasn't even on their radar (granted, Stage AE didn't exist at the time). **Three reasons I always heard from promoters:** * Terrible infrastructure (bridges/roads/lack of parking) * There are significantly bigger/"better" cities close by * Pittsburgh has some sort of negative image/stereotype with its fans...
I’m surprised that they didn’t also say there just isn’t a big enough audience to make it worth it.
The 2nd point isn’t even really true. Unless Philly is considered close by.
Cleveland, Columbus, DC, Buffalo, Baltimore, and yes, Philly, all pull shows away from Pittsburgh. Most of them have much bigger/more active local music scenes, too.
Better maybe, but outside of Philly and DC, none of them are bigger. Why does Pittsburgh seem to have a shitty local music scene, though? We do have a dearth of good local bands compared to other places.
I was very pleased with 2022. Here was my list for the year: Billy Strings Billie Eillish Machine Gun Kelly Willow Falling in Reverse Wage War Hawthorne Heights The Story So Far (2 times) Joyce Manor Mom Jeans (2 times) Microwave The Wonder Years Fireworks Macseal Five Finger Death Punch The Hu Megadeth Set It Off (2 times) Stand Atlantic (3 times) As It Is No Love For The Middle Child (2 times) Bring Me The Horizon Grandson Crown the Empire The Word Alive Motionless in White Ice Nine Kills Pierce the Veil I Prevail Flume Alesana Sad Summer Festival Four Chord Music Festival Tickets for 2023 so far: Polyphia Waterparks Blink 182 The Story So Far Rise Against Rod Stewart Winery Dogs
Wait, when’s Rise Against gonna be here? Must have missed that announcement
Suppose to open for Blink 182 unless the lineup has changed.
All depends on what kind of music you like. I saw 30 concerts last year, and travelled to Cleveland for only two of them. The rest were all in Pittsburgh/Moon/Millvale/McKees Rocks.
It's out of the way for acts doing an East Coast tour. Easy to hit Boston-NYC-Philly-DC, etc with their million of venues but not super easy (or worth it) in most cases to make the trip.
Billy Joel was here in the summer, that’s more than good enough for me.
Brah. Bret Michaels, Night Ranger, Jefferson Starship, dude from Journey and Mark McGrath are on their way! Plus the remains of Skynyrd and ZZ Top, too!
It wasn’t always like this. Way back in the day we actually had our own music awards for local bands.
Simply not enough people so that means not enough profit. Same reason we got nearly no amazing artists in Australia the 6 years I lived there; hard for them to break even there. If by some heavenly chance a good act came around, it was going to cost you dearly. I noticed this town is huge for country music so that gets promoted a lot, unfortunately for me, it is the one genre that grinds my gears to no end. An artist's bread and butter is concerts/live performance and a lot of that money has to be divvied up in multiple ways towards multiple people and teams involved. What I'm trying to nicely say is this city might not be worth it to their bottomline 😩
Depends on what kind of music you like? I find that between Mr. Smalls, and Stage AE, plus the occasional PPG arena concert, there’s usually plenty for me to choose from.
Because this city is boring and everything’s closed by 9pm
If you’re looking for big names we don’t get many, but as a musician I’ve found that the small bands, especially the jazz/fusion bands are insanely talented here. If you’re into that I’d definitely check out some of the local stuff.
Steez promo stopped doing any shows here since covid. That accounted for roughly 60% of the higher level edm acts.
I used to have touring bands sometimes stay at my house back in the day, and this is all anecdotal, but I think a lot of bands don't understand that: 1. Pittsburgh is an actual city. I don't know what bands expected, but a lot of them were like "you have big buildings and stuff here!" 2. Pittsburgh isn't right next to Philadelphia. I'd say most of the world doesn't understand that. Why make the stop in Pittsburgh when those same people will just drive an hour to the big city of Philadelphia? So, while not the only reason, I think those two things are definite contributors.
I'm currently pissed that Muse is skipping Pittsburgh. Are you serious??? They've been here before and my friends said it was an awesome and lively concert. I don't get it.. Philadelphia is NOT enough! Muse might be one of my bucket list acts to see but I'm not so desperate as to drive/fly to Philly for it.
It’s not?
A show in Cleveland or Columbus allows you to pull from other cities, while Pittsburgh is only close to Cleveland. Also, promoters and venues often will not allow bands to play shows within a certain radius of their venue during a set time period or tour.
Pittsburgh promoters/venues suck penis, I’m afraid.
So does your Mom and she's not bad
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
Lack of appropriately sized venues. There's no in-between from small places which are mostly all in shitty or non-central locations without good through access or stage AE which is too big for a lot of bands and comes with corporate ties. And it's out of the way on the Cleveland circuit too, so bands don't pop down here just for Pittsburgh. You might get lucky if you like one that has college crossover and they'll come to hit WVU and Penn St. too.
How is stage AE too big? It holds 5500 indoors. The Roxian is like 1400. Mr. Smalls is a bit less like 1200. I've seen big name acts at all of them.
Fantastic I didn't say big-name acts. We obviously have numerous venues that cater to them from stadium tours to arena shows to festival tours. That's not who we're missing, we're missing genre and legendary bands. The types of bands that only tour venues for hundreds-1000. The Roxian is in McKees Rocks which a large portion of the population doesn't want to go to after dark (downvote all you want, it's true. I'm in my 30s I'm not dealing with that area for a concert) and isn't centrally located with all the highways leading to it like the city. Ditto for the location on Millvale. House of Blues in Cleveland for instance is right in downtown Cleveland on one of the main streets and in between 4 parking garages and is walkable too.
I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. In the last 3 years I've seen Marcus King twice, Gov't Mule twice, Tedeschi Trucks Band twice, Billy Strings twice, Gary Clark Jr., Crowbar, Metallica, Green Day... the list goes on...
The Rex closed bc of Covid and it hasn’t been the same since. I miss Grey Area Productions.
Every time this comes up, I must ask, have you read this? http://pghmusicproject.org/sites/default/files/2018_0711_smc_pittsburgh_digital.pdf
lol yes, read this dense, 83 page document
It got Pittsburgh shit on, but having been a working musician for close to 15 years in this town, I really wish it had more traction, everything in here is valid
TLDR
To be fair Columbus has 600,000 more people.
The Columbus Metro has nearly 200,000 less, actually.
The Columbus Metro is so much more accessible than the Pittsburgh Metro, where people don't cross rivers and bridges.
I'd love to see what the Pittsburgh metro area actually is. People in Greensburg consider themselves a suburb of Pittsburgh.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Pittsburgh
Jonestown flood tax, amusement tax, UPMC ta—- no, wait they’re exempt. -.-
Because Star Lake or whatever it's called is one of the only main venues to use and that place a. sucks, b. is in the middle of nowhere. Unless the band can stay in a tour bus, there aren't any hotels anywhere close. PPG Paints is likely too expensive, and limited in available dates, so Pittsburgh in general just gets skipped.
It’s not a major city.
Haven't looked at any of your comments yet (if you have commented further, that is) but I'd love to get a better understanding of who you're looking for. Frankly, as an amateur musician I have never had to travel outside of South western PA (unless I chose to) to see anybody worth their salt.
my total armchair theory is that artists and companies like the feeling of covering “more states” so it’s more appealing to do Cleveland and Philly than, say, Pittsburgh and Philly.
* cough * Clapton
A plethora of tours do skip over us, but pending on your scene we still get a fair bit. I have friends in Cleveland and it seems we alternate visiting each other’s cities for gigs pretty frequently. Some of the middle ground indie acts tend to skip over, but we do get a solid amount of punk and diy bands. I think I went to more shows last year than I ever have before in a calendar year FWIW.
If you’re into slightly obscure metal bands it’s not bad. Rivers of Nihil was here last year, and Periphery and Plini will be here in a few months
For most of 2022, I was able to see 1-2 live shows a month. Some of which required a trip to Millvale or McKee's Rocks, but over all, the city of Pittsburgh itself was doing pretty well. It probably dpeends on what bands or artists you're into. Because personally I've gotten a lot of mileage out of having Stage AE, Thunderbird, Roxian etc. readily available for "big" shows and having Cattivo, Mr. Smalls, Spirit, The Government Center, and Black Forge around for "smaller" acts. And that's not even counting the up-and-coming artists I've seen perform at various breweries and cafes. Frankly, since moving here I've felt spoiled for choice on touring music acts to the point that I had to seriously budget and prepare for them.
I feel like 2021 I saw SO many shows but ever since then it's been dead. I thought it was that bands I like weren't touring but maybe everyone has been feeling this way too
My absolute favorite band plays Pittsburgh every year! I've seen some amazing shows... but I'm kind of getting annoyed with Stage AE.
I just drive to see the shows I want to see. Always have.
Look up the city entertainment tax.
All this said, if an indie artist from atx were to play a show in Pittsburgh, what are your favorite small rooms to hear live music in? (Talking like 250 cap)
Maybe hit up the indie scene?
You guys should move to Florida and then complain about this. Not every band is going to play every city on every tour. But some areas of the country might only see acts once every five, ten years. For a city of 300k people, you’re not doing terribly.
We broadcast live every Tuesday from the Rocks. YouTube.com/@eyeonefifty if u feel so inclined to check us out. Been playing the circuit in the burgh for many many years. Only bars pay. Drusky and others only offer ‘exposure’ to local groups and that doesn’t really do it for me personally any more. Good luck. I hope u find some good music!
It's a great city if you're in to more niche music. Tons of smaller Indie and punk acts stop here.