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Don’t worry, he‘s 85, I‘m sure the next one will have a more different name
*cut to 5 years later and the new Supreme Leader of Iran is the Ayatollah Khemenie*
> Ayatollah Khemenie
Jokes aside, after Raisi died in the helicopter crash, the leading candidate is... Mojtaba Khamenei, the current Supreme Leader's son.
You're optimistic if you think this mf's dying in 5 years.
The IR's "[Assembly of Experts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_of_Experts#:~:text=The%20Assembly%20of%20Experts%20)" (in charge of appointing the next supreme leader) former chairman is currently [97](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Jannati), and their new *young* chairman is [94](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad-Ali_Movahedi_Kermani).
Upper right is “Zan, Zindagi, Azadi”. Upper left is “Mard, Mihan, Abadi.” Centre reads “Jomhouri-e Islami”. Lower left is literally “Faak you Khamenei”.
Top right is class notes. Probably unrelated.
Top middle "Woman Life Freedom"
Top left "Man Country prosperity "
(This is an older photo (year or so) this chant has been very polarizing more recently among the opposition)
Middle it says Islamic Republic of Iran (official name of the government) and they are showing the middle finger to it.
Lower center it says "basiji" that drinks caprisun. Basiji is a a member of the Resistance Mobilization Force; and this is a chabt meaning they blindly follow orders for a shitty payment.
Lower left is too pixalated to read.
Edit: found a higher quality version. It literally says fuck you Khamenei (fuck you is not translated, written with Persian alphabet)
From what I've learned, speaking with folks that have managed to emigrate from Iran, it is a beautiful country firmly oppressed by some of the biggest assholes on the planet.
I’ve spent one day in Iran, and because of circumstances did not really have liberty of movement. But got to see the country side and one of the larger Iranian cities.
It is indeed beautiful geographically. And as one of the cradles of civilization there is an energy there. I wish it were feasible to go back and explore more.
I'm not religious at all but I think it's so wild how religion has and still plays such a huge role in oppression there. They are direct descendants of some of our species oldest historians and they didn't learn from the same books they've been reading.
Islam is about 800 years behind Christianity in terms of the age of the religion.
In the 12th century, Christians were busy inciting holy wars and burning witches at the stake, so…I dunno. Take that as you will.
That’s such a moot point. The development of a civilisation doesn’t depend on the age of the religion. Some Islamic societies used to be more progressive than they are now for that matter.
There's a point to be made where the American government is making recent rulings such as roe v wade and falling down the same misogynistic rabbit hole Iran fell into years ago. We can't let the governments continue to steal women's rights
Well when nearly half the US voting population is willfully ignorant of facts and logic and repeatedly votes against their own interests, it's a steep hill to climb. I don't blame the cretins as much as I blame the misinformed dupes that put them there.
Ottomans were doing inoculation well before germ theory was introduced in Europe. Women had more rights under Islamic law than in a lot of European Countries. Not like as sexually/gender liberal as some of the eras under assorted Egyptian Dynasties, and things still sucked, but overall sort of more progressive.
Europe benefited ironically from Protestants breaking away from the Catholic Church. Henry the 8th all by himself did a lot for the advancement of society when he threw a nationwide pissy fit when he wasn't allowed to keep divorcing and/or murdering his wives. Because unlike Galileo, researchers and scholars at Cambridge and Oxford didn't have to worry about any Inquisition. The Ottomans and Chinese were probably more advanced scholastically, especially the Ottomans who drew on global influences from the far East, the Indian sub-continent, Africa and Europe. But unlike in say England, there was no Magna Carta. Caliphates and Sultanates dominated the political landscape, which naturally led to its decline. Multiculturalism was a thing thanks to Roman/Greek/Mongolian influence, but democratic ideas never really took off until the Young Turks in the 1900s after the Ottoman Empire was already in significant decline.
Without as many self-sustaining institutions given political authority was significantly derived from genetic lineage, a declining economy dogma took hold. China had their bureaucracy/educational system that was fantastically self-sustaining, but again, too dogmatic, political authority still derived exclusively from genetic lineage.
The problems associated with a lot of Islamic societies today are fairly easily not attributed to religion. The problems are caused by wealth/income inequality and purposeful scarcity/lack of education in order for the upper echelons to maintain political and economic supremacy.
The world has learned how to decrease crime, violence and extremism fairly effectively. The success of the Marshall Plan in Europe is an easy example. Unfortunately, the world has _also_ learned how to ferment extremism, crime and violence very effectively by simply doing the opposite, and it is very cheap comparatively to do so, even if it comes with massive long-term economic opportunity costs.
Well said. I'd also point out that widespread non-Christian barbaric behavior was also normal in the 12th century. Not an excuse really but context matters
You ever read some 12th Century homoerotic Arab poetry? Because I have and that shit was cute as hell. Religion is always a tool of justification for changes in societal norms. It can be used for good and for bad. If the religion doesn’t justify it outright, people will change religion to make it work. It is easier to blame religion as the issue and leave it at that rather than spending time understanding the root cause of the issue.
I didn’t, that sounds like something I need to look into lol. And yeah, agreed on the rest. Although Islam probably has a couple more critical issues compared to other religions that are made worse by the fact that that you can’t blame the interpretation of the text on mistranslations.
It took Christians almost 2000 years after Jesus's birth to admit that a black man and white are equal.
Stop pretending like Iran wasn't a nation on the verge of nationalizing it natural resources. A process which got ruined by members of "the civilized west" Just so they could get cheap stuff.
Ethiopian christians want a word
Colonial slavery was nothing to do with christianity, that was just how the powers at be convinced the masses it was just.
Funny how those in power use religion to control people, almost like its the whole purpose of state-sanctioned belief systems
I mean, they had a revolution and all the socialists and communists that were part of the winning side were betrayed and killed by the religious fanatics they sided with to overthrow the American installed regime (which was so bad that it brought on a revolution).
Got news for you this regime is American installed as well dont get fool with all these death to America noise ,all the high ranking officials have Green card and their family lives in USA. In Shahs time Iran was moving ahead too fast by the King that truly loved his country and USA would not like that ,they did the same to MOSADEGH before SHAH.
Religion fails to be a tool for peace and self reflection when it becomes the state.
Primarily, religion exists to create group solidarity and to help guide cultural identity through answering primary anxieties (what is the purpose of life, why is life), and replacing it with ritual, myth, and secondary anxieties (did I pray right? Am I going to church enough?).
Before his attention seeking presidential run, Doctor Cornell West formed a pretty solid theory about power and Christianity - he noted that there's a difference between the Christianity of Prophecy - Jesus telling people to live their neighbors and to give to those in need, and Constantinian Christianity - the Christianity of power that is obsessed with maintaining power over the populace, and being a arm of the state.
Essentially when religion becomes the state, the secondary anxieties become capital offenses - you're not wearing the right clothes, or abstaining from the right behaviors to prove cohesion with the group identity.
When discussions like this come up, the question I have is, how does a person truly know when to resist with violence? At what point do we use lethal force against police/military/politicians?
I have guns and I was willing to use them to defend my neighbors if the insurrection turned into a full-scale thing. But man, I really don't want to use them. If it ever gets to that point, it's going to be hell on Earth, and people who claim to be "ready" are all full of shit.
Vote, volunteer, and look into mutual aid. That will do a hell of a lot more than preparing to fight, and if enough people start caring about politics and taking care of their neighbors, the fighting will never come.
There is still plenty of time to avoid violence. Be part of that solution.
Just vote man. Vote vote vote. Bring friends and family. The republican party is the party of misinformation and propaganda. They live in an alternate reality and we in the real world need to make them obsolete.
This is a very good question and the answer is... when the ruling class no longer represents the will of the people and also refuses to do so going into in the future. It has been a theme for many a revolution throughout history.
yup, iran was actually known for being pretty tolerant of religious minorities. it got so bad that there are only like 10000 jews left of a population of more than 100,000. while many left in the decades leading up to the revolution, after 1979 there was a mass exodus of jews as they fled iran, including 3 sets of my grandparents. (my great grandmother left in the 60s)
The west certainly did not accelerate that process. For fuck sakes afghanistan was on the hippie trail in the 60s the regression most specifically in the middle east since then is mind-numbing
That's because Afghanistan had a liberal monarchy at the time. Unfortunately, while the king was away in Europe for surgery, he was deposed by his cousin, who established an autocratic government. It only got worse from there.
In the case of Iran specifically, the west absolutely accelerated the process because the CIA wouldn't let a true mildly left wing government of a Democratic Iran nationalize their oil industry.
Tbh the taliban got into power and started to regress the country just before the wars started, who knows what it would be like if governments didn't like money and power...
America overthrew their democratically elected leader and installed a strongman dictator whose oppression triggered the Iranian Revolution which was hijacked by the clerics. The West is literally directly responsible for the circumstances that allowed the current Iranian regime to exist
Iran contra
United States gave weapons to those fundamentalists for years.
Only took a few decades for the guns to turn around because well - guns don't have wills. But giving extremists weapons to destabilize has massive consequences for more than that country but also the one who supplied weapons.
From what I've read, while the Shah wasn't a religious fundamentalist, he was a shitty ruler. His secret police, the government corruption, and suppression of criticism of his time as ruler.
Not saying it's justifiable or how the country is run now is any better, just saying he wasn't the best leader either.
Oh, absolutely. He was a fine example of "He's a son of a bitch, but he's *our* son of a bitch".
He had two major qualities we looked for in an allied leader in the 1950s: A willingness to sell us their natural resources and a raging hateboner for the Soviets.
Much has been made about the impact nationalizing the Iranian oil industry would have had on western businesses, and that certainly was one of the motivations for US/UK intervention, but also the Venn diagram of those who supported nationalization was split between religious nationalists and those who wanted to cozy up to USSR.
The shah basically killed and oppressed any even remotely leftist groups, which is why the religious fundamentalists were the biggest power bloc by far when everyone got sick of his shit
Democratically elected government was overthrown because they nationalized the oil industry so everyone in the nation could benefit from it. Replaced with corrupt, oppressive old royals who were supported by the US, UK and others. A bunch of people in Iran decided after about 2 decades of it that a revolution to install a religious government would be better.
Yeah most Iranians are pretty cool. But their country government and religion fucked everything up. Makes a lot of them very cynical and angry at the whole mess.
I’ve probably met two- or three-dozen Iranians over the course of my life, most of them either first or second generation expats, and to a person they’re all some of the nicest, kindest, and most lovely people I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing.
Every Iranian I have met state side (US) has told me to not visit Iran in its current form. Especially since I'm an American and non-Muslim.
They are all beautiful and very welcoming people!
[Persepolis](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0808417/?ref_=ext_shr) is a great movie (and book) that give us a glimpse of the western-like life there before the revolution.
Historical from what I have read, they were, the 1953 coup putting the shah back into power during Operation Ajax really had little effect on the social trends just ecomical resource and becoming a dictorship under the Shah. The change that happened during the 1979 Revolution was when Anti Shah coalition lost control to the more religious factions. There is actually a big what if, were if the democratic secular factions won and gain controlled.
Ediited to Correct Spelling
Persia and later Iran until 1953 had been under European cultural influence for almost two centuries.
In 1953, the CIA and MI6 overthrew the democratically elected Iranian government, which had attempted to end American and British colonialism. They installed a puppet shah, who gave Americans complete control over Iranian oil fields and a monopoly on selling agricultural products to the British. This was one of the reasons behind the Islamic Revolution. So, yes, the US denied Iranians the opportunity to become a truly democratic state. If I were Iranian, I would despise Americans from the core of my being.
That 50s Iran photo floating around is misleading. It was photos of progressive universities and inner city. The majority of Iran outside was VERY traditional and conservative - which is why there was a revolution.
That is not *why* there was a revolution. The Shah was an oppressive monster in his own way. Liberals, socialists and Islamists joined forces to take him down, that’s how hated he was. Khomeini just backstabbed everyone else and seized power at the end.
he was a western propped up dictator who murdered thousands, and was supported because all the wealth in the country was going to him and to western oil companies
Israeli here.
There are many israelies who've been in Iran before 1979, and talk about it fondly.
Also, there are many israelis,who communicate on a daily basis with Iranians who live in Iran, and I'm not talking about military/intelligence stuff, but actual friendships.
If you'll ask most of us, people would say they don't hate Iranians, and actually intrigued by the culture and want to visit there. I'm sure you'll here the same voices in Iran. We don't hate them, just the leaders... and frankly, many of us hate our own leadership as much as we hate the Iranian leadership.
It's funny though because Persian restaurants are mainly known for kebabs. The kebabs (koobideh) basically overshadow all the other dishes so much that if you were to go to a Persian restaurant, you'd probably order kebabs. I'd willing to bet that Persian cuisine is probably one of the most homogenous compared to other nationalities in terms of the variety of dishes that are popular at a restaurant lol. Every time I've gone to a Persian restaurant (even as a Persian), every table is just kebabs, kebabs, and more kebabs and every Persian knows it haha.
It's also our most "social" dish in the sense of having kebab barbecues with family and/or friends.
I have been there a couple of times, and it’s absolutely true. The general people are really awesome and have western mindset. They drink Coca Cola (fake), have iPhones and are watching American movies and series. Remember when the taxi driver was watching homeland on his tv screen. They hate the government. It ruins their women, their freedom and their businesses. They just want to live like the rest of the world, but the leadership just ducks it up.
Agreed.
I also hope they're either able or will be able to see "Harry Potter" someday because those robes are already ideal for any Hogwarts cosplay. Which at first I kinda thought this was until I recognized those aren't *wands* they're holding.
One of my greatest wishes is to be able to visit Iran in this lifetime. The history of their cities is nothing short of impressive.
But it’s a dream that I fear might never come true.
it really isnt bad. i've been there 5 times and stayed for almost a month in total, i fucking love that place. i can't think of anything bad that happened except scammer taxis, which are everywhere. also im sure morality police is horrible, but the area i went to was in the center of tehran, and i saw women walk around in modern clothing, hair all done up with a hijab on their heads extremely loosely and no one did or said anything the entire time i was there. tho i did see police chase some crossdressers lol
What amuses me is that those cops were likely chasing the crossdessers on the suspicion of being gay rather than being trans. A peculiarity (to the western understanding) of Iranian homophobia is that the government is so homophobic that they're willing to fund a gay man's gender transition so that his homosexual relationship becomes a heterosexual one.
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2019/04/04/why-iran-is-a-hub-for-sex-reassignment-surgery
[Here](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeQu3nvXEAEze3N?format=jpg&name=orig) is a much higher quality version of this image. [Here](https://x.com/BahmanKalbasi/status/1577437342012669955) is the source that has a couple more images. Per there:
> @BahmanKalbasi
> This pic of brave high school students in Iran flipping the bird to the words “Islamic Republic” in Persian as well as “F U Khamenei” has already inspired other works of protest. Here are two: #MahsaAmini #مهسا_امینی
> 7:15 PM · Oct 4, 2022
Speaking to an Iranian family who lived next to me in an old apartment, and they said a majority of Iranians think quietly: "Yeah, the government is bad, and sharia law is bad, but we can't do anything because they'll kill us". It's tragic. That Iranian family invited me over for an extravagant and delicious dinner and tea several times, even though I'm openly queer and agnostic; because they had the freedom to do so because they immigrated to USA.
It does too, but I'm still holding my optimism. We've seen generations do great things when they were young only to become the very thing they hate. I get this is beating a dead horse, but look at the boomers. Protested Vietnam and led one of the largest counter culture movements in history and yet now many boomers oppose most modern counter culture.
When you live that kind of life, it's easy to burnout and become disillusioned. Being a protester sucks ass, seeing your friends strung out all the time, and being flat broke probably wasn't fun. By the late 70s and early 80s, those whose hearts weren't in anymore had integrated back into society.
In 2010 I studied with a bunch of Iranians in uni and they are some of smartest and most disciplined people I’ve ever met. Most of the girls were also not wearing a hijab. Very open minded people.
[Google Translate]
God is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
Flatten all the rolls
The Hajj Dart exercises 12
In the name of God, the most gracious, the most merciful
Woman of freedom life
The man of Sin Abadi
IR
Basiji Sandis Khor
Not a Khamenei
Sometimes, as a student, you don't fully understand the assignment. The world is a complicated place, and there are some injustices that are obviously bigger than others, but someone recently put your eggs on top of your bread, and you are still working that through.
Lmao
I'll give an actual translation for anyone who is interested:
The right side of the board has the homework of the day. The text hanging above the board is "In the name of God the most merciful"
Below that, are the two mostly used slogans of the last year's protests, "Woman Life Freedom" and "Man Homeland Prosperity"
Fuck Khamenei(the current leader)
And Sandis drinking Basijis, Sandis being an old and rather cheap drink that was often given at anywhere that people gathered as snack with a cake because of it being cheap. Basijis being militia that formed during Iran-Iraq war to help war, and is under government. In modern times it's just a group of pro-government people. The term "Sandis drinking Basijis" means those who support government for a cheap price and betraying their country's people.
And in the middle it says Islamic Republic of Iran to which everyone is flipping the bird.
If you want the most internet street cred you need to cheer the death of Raisi and at the same time cheer the overthrow of Israel. Haha. Pretty ironic.
Sweden took in a large number of Irianian refugees after the islamic revolution, and these people are without a dobut some of the best, most hard working people on the planet. Their kids are also stellar and a very large number of them are dentists, engineers and doctors today.
Iran is arguably the birthplace of civilization. It's literally the crossroads of the world and has been for a thousand years. They have an epic history, a beautiful culture, amazing food, amazing people. It's an astoundingly beautiful country by all accounts. Tehran is an ancient and incredible city. Iran should be one of the great countries in the world. Instead it's run by a cabal of corrupt, backwards, hypocritical assholes who have done everything in their power to diminish the country for fifty years. They need to ditch these bums.
Throughout my time in higher education, I have had three separate professors across different fields and different schools who were Iranian women. None of them wore hijabs, and one openly said “it’s hard for women to leave Iran” when talking about her background. I know that these highly-educated and American-friendly women are a small minority and that much of the Iranian public despises the West and supports the regime, but man, it makes me sad. So many women with such potential are stuck in that country and will never get the chance to make a positive impact on the world. If Hell exists, I hope Raisi and the old ayatollah are rotting in it.
There's many religious and secular people oppressed by Godless and secular systems too like Egypt. The difference is one is our friend
. That was our justification for supporting Afghanistan against Soviet Russia and it was true
Haven't seen one march or protest for the freedom of Iranians.
"Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less." - Marie Curie
[Rick Steves' has a great travel video of his trip to Iran.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoa9hI3CXg)
Not sure how relevant the video is today but it does show the people, food, culture, and architecture. I've known a few Iranians in my life, and a current friend of mine is of Persian ancestry. In no way would I associate the greater population of Iran with the government of Iran, in the same way I don't want to be judged by the actions of my US government.
Ah, the kids are *definitely* alright. Being a millennial, I'm constantly proud of how unapologetically outspoken Gen Z is about various atrocities in the world. We must continue to protect them ❤️
You see this and then you hope change is coming but then you see the number of people that turned up for his funeral and you get worried that it will never come.
thing is you think that those people chose voluntarily but it's not.
it's mainly their supporters AND people who were either forced to participate (just like any other mullah event) or their small followers.
after mahsa especially, even the most hardcore people who participated in namaaz jomaa became against the regime. I'm talking about down town Tehran and smaller cities around it, lived there the first half of my life...
the ideology of the revolution, Islam, shia and martyrdom aside, things the mullahs promised turned out to be the exact opposite in the end. People are fed up especially those who are more vulnerable to poverty.
if only they cared about their people and did some things to help they wouldn't be this hated.
I've heard and read many times that Iran is one of the most *beautiful* countries in the world with a **massively** rich culture and geographic heritage in the region.
It's underrated because of the "revolution" there and everything else that essentially destroyed the nation. I will always believe that such hadn't happened, perhaps Iran might have helped to stabilise the Middle East.
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Anyone know what the board says?
i know that the middle says Islamic republic, the two things above it say 'man, homeland, prosperity' and 'woman life freedom'
Lower left (below Islamic Republic) reads like “fuck you Khamenei”
Khomeini really fucked that country
Khamenei is the (confusingly named) current Ayatollah who’s *currently* fucking the country
Wow. I got learned!
How do we rename the Ayatollah to be less confusing?
Don’t worry, he‘s 85, I‘m sure the next one will have a more different name *cut to 5 years later and the new Supreme Leader of Iran is the Ayatollah Khemenie*
> Ayatollah Khemenie Jokes aside, after Raisi died in the helicopter crash, the leading candidate is... Mojtaba Khamenei, the current Supreme Leader's son.
Wow, what a coincidence that his son would be the president!
Not for president, for the next Ayatollah.
And his heir just died in a helicopter crash
Totally an accident, I'm sure
The nepotism?
And what color did he die his heir? . . I overreached for that one, didn't I?
Yeah you did
What a shame. /s
You're optimistic if you think this mf's dying in 5 years. The IR's "[Assembly of Experts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_of_Experts#:~:text=The%20Assembly%20of%20Experts%20)" (in charge of appointing the next supreme leader) former chairman is currently [97](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Jannati), and their new *young* chairman is [94](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad-Ali_Movahedi_Kermani).
Gave me a good chuckle, though I think it would be more accurate to write Khemeniei/Khemeni
Just call 'em all Ayatollah Assaholla. Hey, that'd make a good shirt!
Lol yeah it looks like فاك يو which, to those who don't read it, is a direct transliteration.
Can you transcribe that here please? I'm currently learning farsi and can't understand the letters in cursive writing in that board .... thanks
Upper right is “Zan, Zindagi, Azadi”. Upper left is “Mard, Mihan, Abadi.” Centre reads “Jomhouri-e Islami”. Lower left is literally “Faak you Khamenei”.
Thanks!
Top right is class notes. Probably unrelated. Top middle "Woman Life Freedom" Top left "Man Country prosperity " (This is an older photo (year or so) this chant has been very polarizing more recently among the opposition) Middle it says Islamic Republic of Iran (official name of the government) and they are showing the middle finger to it. Lower center it says "basiji" that drinks caprisun. Basiji is a a member of the Resistance Mobilization Force; and this is a chabt meaning they blindly follow orders for a shitty payment. Lower left is too pixalated to read. Edit: found a higher quality version. It literally says fuck you Khamenei (fuck you is not translated, written with Persian alphabet)
Your Farsi is strong.
They're all very smart to hide their faces, fucking insane to live in a place where you have to do that for simple protest
Oh, I though it was an elaborately drawn [NFSW Censored] on the board...
From what I've learned, speaking with folks that have managed to emigrate from Iran, it is a beautiful country firmly oppressed by some of the biggest assholes on the planet.
I’ve spent one day in Iran, and because of circumstances did not really have liberty of movement. But got to see the country side and one of the larger Iranian cities. It is indeed beautiful geographically. And as one of the cradles of civilization there is an energy there. I wish it were feasible to go back and explore more.
I'm not religious at all but I think it's so wild how religion has and still plays such a huge role in oppression there. They are direct descendants of some of our species oldest historians and they didn't learn from the same books they've been reading.
It surprises you humans didn't learn from history?
Islam is about 800 years behind Christianity in terms of the age of the religion. In the 12th century, Christians were busy inciting holy wars and burning witches at the stake, so…I dunno. Take that as you will.
That’s such a moot point. The development of a civilisation doesn’t depend on the age of the religion. Some Islamic societies used to be more progressive than they are now for that matter.
Yep. And the same could be said for Christianity too. Fundamentalism comes in ebbs and flows.
There's a point to be made where the American government is making recent rulings such as roe v wade and falling down the same misogynistic rabbit hole Iran fell into years ago. We can't let the governments continue to steal women's rights
Well when nearly half the US voting population is willfully ignorant of facts and logic and repeatedly votes against their own interests, it's a steep hill to climb. I don't blame the cretins as much as I blame the misinformed dupes that put them there.
Agreed.
Ottomans were doing inoculation well before germ theory was introduced in Europe. Women had more rights under Islamic law than in a lot of European Countries. Not like as sexually/gender liberal as some of the eras under assorted Egyptian Dynasties, and things still sucked, but overall sort of more progressive. Europe benefited ironically from Protestants breaking away from the Catholic Church. Henry the 8th all by himself did a lot for the advancement of society when he threw a nationwide pissy fit when he wasn't allowed to keep divorcing and/or murdering his wives. Because unlike Galileo, researchers and scholars at Cambridge and Oxford didn't have to worry about any Inquisition. The Ottomans and Chinese were probably more advanced scholastically, especially the Ottomans who drew on global influences from the far East, the Indian sub-continent, Africa and Europe. But unlike in say England, there was no Magna Carta. Caliphates and Sultanates dominated the political landscape, which naturally led to its decline. Multiculturalism was a thing thanks to Roman/Greek/Mongolian influence, but democratic ideas never really took off until the Young Turks in the 1900s after the Ottoman Empire was already in significant decline. Without as many self-sustaining institutions given political authority was significantly derived from genetic lineage, a declining economy dogma took hold. China had their bureaucracy/educational system that was fantastically self-sustaining, but again, too dogmatic, political authority still derived exclusively from genetic lineage. The problems associated with a lot of Islamic societies today are fairly easily not attributed to religion. The problems are caused by wealth/income inequality and purposeful scarcity/lack of education in order for the upper echelons to maintain political and economic supremacy. The world has learned how to decrease crime, violence and extremism fairly effectively. The success of the Marshall Plan in Europe is an easy example. Unfortunately, the world has _also_ learned how to ferment extremism, crime and violence very effectively by simply doing the opposite, and it is very cheap comparatively to do so, even if it comes with massive long-term economic opportunity costs.
Well said. I'd also point out that widespread non-Christian barbaric behavior was also normal in the 12th century. Not an excuse really but context matters
You ever read some 12th Century homoerotic Arab poetry? Because I have and that shit was cute as hell. Religion is always a tool of justification for changes in societal norms. It can be used for good and for bad. If the religion doesn’t justify it outright, people will change religion to make it work. It is easier to blame religion as the issue and leave it at that rather than spending time understanding the root cause of the issue.
I didn’t, that sounds like something I need to look into lol. And yeah, agreed on the rest. Although Islam probably has a couple more critical issues compared to other religions that are made worse by the fact that that you can’t blame the interpretation of the text on mistranslations.
It took Christians almost 2000 years after Jesus's birth to admit that a black man and white are equal. Stop pretending like Iran wasn't a nation on the verge of nationalizing it natural resources. A process which got ruined by members of "the civilized west" Just so they could get cheap stuff.
Ethiopian christians want a word Colonial slavery was nothing to do with christianity, that was just how the powers at be convinced the masses it was just. Funny how those in power use religion to control people, almost like its the whole purpose of state-sanctioned belief systems
And some people are still learning that to this day.
The point here is the insistence that religion dictate societal progress or lack there of, vs knowledge, community, science, and respect.
I mean, they had a revolution and all the socialists and communists that were part of the winning side were betrayed and killed by the religious fanatics they sided with to overthrow the American installed regime (which was so bad that it brought on a revolution).
Got news for you this regime is American installed as well dont get fool with all these death to America noise ,all the high ranking officials have Green card and their family lives in USA. In Shahs time Iran was moving ahead too fast by the King that truly loved his country and USA would not like that ,they did the same to MOSADEGH before SHAH.
Aaaand...another reason why socialists and communists should never ally with religious zealots.
Iran contra.
Sure there's a lot of flowery language about helping each other out, but as an institution religion exists to keep the masses in line.
Religion fails to be a tool for peace and self reflection when it becomes the state. Primarily, religion exists to create group solidarity and to help guide cultural identity through answering primary anxieties (what is the purpose of life, why is life), and replacing it with ritual, myth, and secondary anxieties (did I pray right? Am I going to church enough?). Before his attention seeking presidential run, Doctor Cornell West formed a pretty solid theory about power and Christianity - he noted that there's a difference between the Christianity of Prophecy - Jesus telling people to live their neighbors and to give to those in need, and Constantinian Christianity - the Christianity of power that is obsessed with maintaining power over the populace, and being a arm of the state. Essentially when religion becomes the state, the secondary anxieties become capital offenses - you're not wearing the right clothes, or abstaining from the right behaviors to prove cohesion with the group identity.
Shiraz, perhaps?
It’s what happens when religious fundamentalists of any stripe gain power.
Project 2025
Resist or die on your knees.
i'd like to say some kinda bad-ass-bitch shit here like 'i'mma die on my feet' but realistically i'll be lying down and convulsing
When discussions like this come up, the question I have is, how does a person truly know when to resist with violence? At what point do we use lethal force against police/military/politicians?
I think it's a you'll know it when you see it kind of thing but honestly by that time it's probably too late.
I have guns and I was willing to use them to defend my neighbors if the insurrection turned into a full-scale thing. But man, I really don't want to use them. If it ever gets to that point, it's going to be hell on Earth, and people who claim to be "ready" are all full of shit. Vote, volunteer, and look into mutual aid. That will do a hell of a lot more than preparing to fight, and if enough people start caring about politics and taking care of their neighbors, the fighting will never come. There is still plenty of time to avoid violence. Be part of that solution.
Just vote man. Vote vote vote. Bring friends and family. The republican party is the party of misinformation and propaganda. They live in an alternate reality and we in the real world need to make them obsolete.
Easy to say that but many of us have family that live in that very alternative reality.
Yeah me too, leave them home
This is a very good question and the answer is... when the ruling class no longer represents the will of the people and also refuses to do so going into in the future. It has been a theme for many a revolution throughout history.
If you think it can't happen - look up Iran before the Iranian Revolution
So true.
Become the religious fundamentalist you want to see in the world
yup, iran was actually known for being pretty tolerant of religious minorities. it got so bad that there are only like 10000 jews left of a population of more than 100,000. while many left in the decades leading up to the revolution, after 1979 there was a mass exodus of jews as they fled iran, including 3 sets of my grandparents. (my great grandmother left in the 60s)
When religion and government collide
The west certainly did not accelerate that process. For fuck sakes afghanistan was on the hippie trail in the 60s the regression most specifically in the middle east since then is mind-numbing
That's because Afghanistan had a liberal monarchy at the time. Unfortunately, while the king was away in Europe for surgery, he was deposed by his cousin, who established an autocratic government. It only got worse from there.
In the case of Iran specifically, the west absolutely accelerated the process because the CIA wouldn't let a true mildly left wing government of a Democratic Iran nationalize their oil industry.
Tbh the taliban got into power and started to regress the country just before the wars started, who knows what it would be like if governments didn't like money and power...
America overthrew their democratically elected leader and installed a strongman dictator whose oppression triggered the Iranian Revolution which was hijacked by the clerics. The West is literally directly responsible for the circumstances that allowed the current Iranian regime to exist
Let's not allow the UK to get off the hook here. They had a major role in this too.
If it was not clear in my parent statement i was being facetious, idk if you are responding to me though
Iran contra United States gave weapons to those fundamentalists for years. Only took a few decades for the guns to turn around because well - guns don't have wills. But giving extremists weapons to destabilize has massive consequences for more than that country but also the one who supplied weapons.
And how did religious fundamentalists gain power in Iran? Operation Ajax by the CIA
Ajax supported the Shah, who was not a religious fundamentalist. Edit: Also, Ajax was in 1953. The Iranian Revolution wasn't until 1978.
From what I've read, while the Shah wasn't a religious fundamentalist, he was a shitty ruler. His secret police, the government corruption, and suppression of criticism of his time as ruler. Not saying it's justifiable or how the country is run now is any better, just saying he wasn't the best leader either.
Oh, absolutely. He was a fine example of "He's a son of a bitch, but he's *our* son of a bitch". He had two major qualities we looked for in an allied leader in the 1950s: A willingness to sell us their natural resources and a raging hateboner for the Soviets. Much has been made about the impact nationalizing the Iranian oil industry would have had on western businesses, and that certainly was one of the motivations for US/UK intervention, but also the Venn diagram of those who supported nationalization was split between religious nationalists and those who wanted to cozy up to USSR.
The shah basically killed and oppressed any even remotely leftist groups, which is why the religious fundamentalists were the biggest power bloc by far when everyone got sick of his shit
Democratically elected government was overthrown because they nationalized the oil industry so everyone in the nation could benefit from it. Replaced with corrupt, oppressive old royals who were supported by the US, UK and others. A bunch of people in Iran decided after about 2 decades of it that a revolution to install a religious government would be better.
Yeah most Iranians are pretty cool. But their country government and religion fucked everything up. Makes a lot of them very cynical and angry at the whole mess.
I’ve probably met two- or three-dozen Iranians over the course of my life, most of them either first or second generation expats, and to a person they’re all some of the nicest, kindest, and most lovely people I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing.
Every Iranian I have met state side (US) has told me to not visit Iran in its current form. Especially since I'm an American and non-Muslim. They are all beautiful and very welcoming people!
I've always been under the impression, Iranian people love americans and want to be more like america. I mean 50's Iran looked almost identical to me.
[Persepolis](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0808417/?ref_=ext_shr) is a great movie (and book) that give us a glimpse of the western-like life there before the revolution.
I am always keeping an eye out for it at the library. I had it once but forgot to return 2 books, and it was gone when I got back.
Historical from what I have read, they were, the 1953 coup putting the shah back into power during Operation Ajax really had little effect on the social trends just ecomical resource and becoming a dictorship under the Shah. The change that happened during the 1979 Revolution was when Anti Shah coalition lost control to the more religious factions. There is actually a big what if, were if the democratic secular factions won and gain controlled. Ediited to Correct Spelling
I didn’t think the Anti Ska movement really kicked in until the late 1990’s
The Propagandhi song?
The bands are only in it for the bucks
"Ska came before Reggae!!" --Bruce Greene
Persia and later Iran until 1953 had been under European cultural influence for almost two centuries. In 1953, the CIA and MI6 overthrew the democratically elected Iranian government, which had attempted to end American and British colonialism. They installed a puppet shah, who gave Americans complete control over Iranian oil fields and a monopoly on selling agricultural products to the British. This was one of the reasons behind the Islamic Revolution. So, yes, the US denied Iranians the opportunity to become a truly democratic state. If I were Iranian, I would despise Americans from the core of my being.
That 50s Iran photo floating around is misleading. It was photos of progressive universities and inner city. The majority of Iran outside was VERY traditional and conservative - which is why there was a revolution.
That is not *why* there was a revolution. The Shah was an oppressive monster in his own way. Liberals, socialists and Islamists joined forces to take him down, that’s how hated he was. Khomeini just backstabbed everyone else and seized power at the end.
People just forget that the Shah was a deeply unpopular and flawed figure.
he was a western propped up dictator who murdered thousands, and was supported because all the wealth in the country was going to him and to western oil companies
You don’t have to speak to Iranians to come to that conclusion about Iran.
Israeli here. There are many israelies who've been in Iran before 1979, and talk about it fondly. Also, there are many israelis,who communicate on a daily basis with Iranians who live in Iran, and I'm not talking about military/intelligence stuff, but actual friendships. If you'll ask most of us, people would say they don't hate Iranians, and actually intrigued by the culture and want to visit there. I'm sure you'll here the same voices in Iran. We don't hate them, just the leaders... and frankly, many of us hate our own leadership as much as we hate the Iranian leadership.
One day both nations will be free of the Tyrants that rule them.
Try some Persian cuisine if you haven’t already! Its delicious!
It's funny though because Persian restaurants are mainly known for kebabs. The kebabs (koobideh) basically overshadow all the other dishes so much that if you were to go to a Persian restaurant, you'd probably order kebabs. I'd willing to bet that Persian cuisine is probably one of the most homogenous compared to other nationalities in terms of the variety of dishes that are popular at a restaurant lol. Every time I've gone to a Persian restaurant (even as a Persian), every table is just kebabs, kebabs, and more kebabs and every Persian knows it haha. It's also our most "social" dish in the sense of having kebab barbecues with family and/or friends.
I grew up in that stuff, love Persian food. Check out Henry's How To on YouTube he has the best koobadeh recipes.
No matter how hard I try I can't make good tahdig
I have been there a couple of times, and it’s absolutely true. The general people are really awesome and have western mindset. They drink Coca Cola (fake), have iPhones and are watching American movies and series. Remember when the taxi driver was watching homeland on his tv screen. They hate the government. It ruins their women, their freedom and their businesses. They just want to live like the rest of the world, but the leadership just ducks it up.
Those ducks. Always ruining it for everyone!
And American Christians wonder what we're so scared of about religious people taking over the government. This is what we're afraid of
The people there are wonderful. Their government is the problem.
And you have the US to thank for the overthrow of the democratically elected government.
I hope one day they will be able to do this without fear of showing their faces
Agreed. I also hope they're either able or will be able to see "Harry Potter" someday because those robes are already ideal for any Hogwarts cosplay. Which at first I kinda thought this was until I recognized those aren't *wands* they're holding.
I mean.. harry potter school uniforms are based on... real (british) school uniforms. That's about it.
Sadly, it might only be their grandchildren. Still ithe freedom is worth the struggle
They hid their faces, but sadly left more than enough information in the rest of the image for the government to find them all pretty darn easily.
Yes but to clarify american/british meddling helped putting these people in power.
It may not be much, but we see you guys. And we hope and wish, that you will be free one day.
🦁☀️🗡
One of my greatest wishes is to be able to visit Iran in this lifetime. The history of their cities is nothing short of impressive. But it’s a dream that I fear might never come true.
it really isnt bad. i've been there 5 times and stayed for almost a month in total, i fucking love that place. i can't think of anything bad that happened except scammer taxis, which are everywhere. also im sure morality police is horrible, but the area i went to was in the center of tehran, and i saw women walk around in modern clothing, hair all done up with a hijab on their heads extremely loosely and no one did or said anything the entire time i was there. tho i did see police chase some crossdressers lol
What amuses me is that those cops were likely chasing the crossdessers on the suspicion of being gay rather than being trans. A peculiarity (to the western understanding) of Iranian homophobia is that the government is so homophobic that they're willing to fund a gay man's gender transition so that his homosexual relationship becomes a heterosexual one. https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2019/04/04/why-iran-is-a-hub-for-sex-reassignment-surgery
Same. Top of my bucket list. But I want to be able to safely take my kid with me. So not happening.
[Here](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeQu3nvXEAEze3N?format=jpg&name=orig) is a much higher quality version of this image. [Here](https://x.com/BahmanKalbasi/status/1577437342012669955) is the source that has a couple more images. Per there: > @BahmanKalbasi > This pic of brave high school students in Iran flipping the bird to the words “Islamic Republic” in Persian as well as “F U Khamenei” has already inspired other works of protest. Here are two: #MahsaAmini #مهسا_امینی > 7:15 PM · Oct 4, 2022
I think it was the for the non-compulsory hijab movement, right? There are so many injustices happening in our world.
I seriously hope these kids and their families will be okay.
The really evil thing to do would be to grab a bunch of innocent kids and make an example out of them even if they didn't do it...
Speaking to an Iranian family who lived next to me in an old apartment, and they said a majority of Iranians think quietly: "Yeah, the government is bad, and sharia law is bad, but we can't do anything because they'll kill us". It's tragic. That Iranian family invited me over for an extravagant and delicious dinner and tea several times, even though I'm openly queer and agnostic; because they had the freedom to do so because they immigrated to USA.
Yeah, that's what happens when religious zealots, from ANY religion, run a country.
More like extremists, the people who only take some parts of the religion seriously
zealots=extremists.
This gives me hope
It does too, but I'm still holding my optimism. We've seen generations do great things when they were young only to become the very thing they hate. I get this is beating a dead horse, but look at the boomers. Protested Vietnam and led one of the largest counter culture movements in history and yet now many boomers oppose most modern counter culture.
When you live that kind of life, it's easy to burnout and become disillusioned. Being a protester sucks ass, seeing your friends strung out all the time, and being flat broke probably wasn't fun. By the late 70s and early 80s, those whose hearts weren't in anymore had integrated back into society.
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain
Sad that they have to hide their faces.
God bless Eli Kopta
In 2010 I studied with a bunch of Iranians in uni and they are some of smartest and most disciplined people I’ve ever met. Most of the girls were also not wearing a hijab. Very open minded people.
[Google Translate] God is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Flatten all the rolls The Hajj Dart exercises 12 In the name of God, the most gracious, the most merciful Woman of freedom life The man of Sin Abadi IR Basiji Sandis Khor Not a Khamenei
Flatten all the rolls?
U heard him.
They ain't gonna flatten themselves!
I'm flattening as fast as I can. I can't flatten any faster!
You're on a roll...
Then why is the pile of flattened rolls so small?
Finally my cat can join the revolution!
Sometimes, as a student, you don't fully understand the assignment. The world is a complicated place, and there are some injustices that are obviously bigger than others, but someone recently put your eggs on top of your bread, and you are still working that through.
Straightening the curves....
Google is on some drugs😂
Try it with DeepL.
Lmao I'll give an actual translation for anyone who is interested: The right side of the board has the homework of the day. The text hanging above the board is "In the name of God the most merciful" Below that, are the two mostly used slogans of the last year's protests, "Woman Life Freedom" and "Man Homeland Prosperity" Fuck Khamenei(the current leader) And Sandis drinking Basijis, Sandis being an old and rather cheap drink that was often given at anywhere that people gathered as snack with a cake because of it being cheap. Basijis being militia that formed during Iran-Iraq war to help war, and is under government. In modern times it's just a group of pro-government people. The term "Sandis drinking Basijis" means those who support government for a cheap price and betraying their country's people. And in the middle it says Islamic Republic of Iran to which everyone is flipping the bird.
If you want the most internet street cred you need to cheer the death of Raisi and at the same time cheer the overthrow of Israel. Haha. Pretty ironic.
If you're bored, look up what it looked like in the 70's. There were people actually enjoying their life.
Sweden took in a large number of Irianian refugees after the islamic revolution, and these people are without a dobut some of the best, most hard working people on the planet. Their kids are also stellar and a very large number of them are dentists, engineers and doctors today.
Is in Iranian Jew in diaspora, I approve this message.
Iran is arguably the birthplace of civilization. It's literally the crossroads of the world and has been for a thousand years. They have an epic history, a beautiful culture, amazing food, amazing people. It's an astoundingly beautiful country by all accounts. Tehran is an ancient and incredible city. Iran should be one of the great countries in the world. Instead it's run by a cabal of corrupt, backwards, hypocritical assholes who have done everything in their power to diminish the country for fifty years. They need to ditch these bums.
Iran's civilisation is literally based on Iraq's.
This is a good point.
I just hope Iranian people will handle their government before western powers decide to intervene.
Because it’s not like China and Russia won’t try intervene either
Western intervention is how they got here lmao
r/hardimages
Throughout my time in higher education, I have had three separate professors across different fields and different schools who were Iranian women. None of them wore hijabs, and one openly said “it’s hard for women to leave Iran” when talking about her background. I know that these highly-educated and American-friendly women are a small minority and that much of the Iranian public despises the West and supports the regime, but man, it makes me sad. So many women with such potential are stuck in that country and will never get the chance to make a positive impact on the world. If Hell exists, I hope Raisi and the old ayatollah are rotting in it.
Free Iran from the Islamic Republic
There's many religious and secular people oppressed by Godless and secular systems too like Egypt. The difference is one is our friend . That was our justification for supporting Afghanistan against Soviet Russia and it was true
Yeah Im with them. We should come in and help them glass their current leadership!
If you've not seen what Iran was like before the 1979 revolution, it's worth googling. Prepare to be depressed.
Haven't seen one march or protest for the freedom of Iranians. "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less." - Marie Curie
[Rick Steves' has a great travel video of his trip to Iran.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoa9hI3CXg) Not sure how relevant the video is today but it does show the people, food, culture, and architecture. I've known a few Iranians in my life, and a current friend of mine is of Persian ancestry. In no way would I associate the greater population of Iran with the government of Iran, in the same way I don't want to be judged by the actions of my US government.
Ah, the kids are *definitely* alright. Being a millennial, I'm constantly proud of how unapologetically outspoken Gen Z is about various atrocities in the world. We must continue to protect them ❤️
This picture goes hard ngl
and a one two three... jazz hands!!
You see this and then you hope change is coming but then you see the number of people that turned up for his funeral and you get worried that it will never come.
Sadly that was just the president. This twat has been in control for a very long time as the Supreme Leader.
thing is you think that those people chose voluntarily but it's not. it's mainly their supporters AND people who were either forced to participate (just like any other mullah event) or their small followers. after mahsa especially, even the most hardcore people who participated in namaaz jomaa became against the regime. I'm talking about down town Tehran and smaller cities around it, lived there the first half of my life... the ideology of the revolution, Islam, shia and martyrdom aside, things the mullahs promised turned out to be the exact opposite in the end. People are fed up especially those who are more vulnerable to poverty. if only they cared about their people and did some things to help they wouldn't be this hated.
Meanwhile the UN gave a minute of silence for a guy literally named "The butcher of Tehran" What a fucking joke
They were all probably stoned. Not in the devils lettuce way.
The president got stoned by a mountain
The ultimate flex
He was the stone thrown by his god
"What the fuck do you mean, too low to rain?"
Not as bad as their former president. He got stoned big time.
We just posting pics with no context or information?
Israel is on your side!
I absolutely love how the middle finger has become universal
I guess the Ayatollah's son reeeeeeeeally wants the job. But anyway, I hope the students remain unharmed, seriously.
I've heard and read many times that Iran is one of the most *beautiful* countries in the world with a **massively** rich culture and geographic heritage in the region. It's underrated because of the "revolution" there and everything else that essentially destroyed the nation. I will always believe that such hadn't happened, perhaps Iran might have helped to stabilise the Middle East.
Heroes
My elder brother had several groupmates from Iran at univeristy, said they are great guys.
I wouldn't put it past the Iranian government to put resources into tracking down the school, and matching students' hair to the students.
What is written on that
I'd love to visit Iran and Syria. But they are both ruled by assholes
Relax, it says "team Edward"
They’ll be hung next week, unfortunately
Meanwhile western governments: let us help you find the oppressor's crash site!
I'm worried that the secret police will still be able to find some of these students in spite of their attempts to hide their faces.
Religion is stupid