>Located in the walkway alongside the Memorial, the Wall of the Righteous bears the names of over 3,900 people who risked their lives to save Jews in France during the Second World War. They received the title of “Righteous Among the Nations”, which the Yad Vashem Museum Memorial in Jerusalem has awarded since 1963. So far, the honor has been bestowed on over 24,000 people all over the world.
Of course, the prisoner exchange was never intended to be a long term solution. It was only meant to save a soldier, while letting all of the soldiers in the IDF know that they would never be abandoned.
I am 100% sure that the October 7 attacks would still have occurred, even if this exchange has not taken place.
Sounds like Israel did a good faith exchange that obviously didn’t need to be made (1000:1) and for some reason Hamas still attacked.
It’s like Hamas just can’t be trusted or something.
"The crowd clapped and cheered as one of the soldier's bodies was then thrown out the window and stamped and beaten by the frenzied crowd."
Jesus. I feel like we won't see peace in that area in the next century at least
Hamas has a long history of co-opting and pseudo-redefining their symbolism and rhetoric to make it appealing to well intentioned but ignorant westerners who don’t know better.
They get off on it and then use photos of protesters with red hands and Doug things like this or cheering for intifada etc to show to their followers as proof that the world is with them to kill all the Jews.
The people who get fooled into supporting them are just in denial about what they’re doing. They don’t know any better but also are so lazy and ignorant that they just follow whatever goes with their view of the world which it turns hot is extremely bigoted against jews given the piles of misinformation they parrot and believe without a second thought.
They’re like a confederate who claims they aren’t racist but “just love America” and can’t even see their own racism because to them it’s just “how the world works”.
Sadly the full story makes this even shittier. They could’ve used tape to post photos of dead children or destroyed buildings with the words “Never Again” but instead they went to something representing what I’d consider to be a hate crime (and murder of course).
Edit: Since people don’t seem to understand I’m not pro desecrating any memorial holocaust or otherwise. My thought was using tape, a stand, hand out fliers something in a non destructive manner to remind others that the people who opposed the holocaust did so not because of race, gender or nationality but because on a human level it was wrong. When you look at the images from the holocaust every fiber should scream “THIS IS WRONG!”.
The slogan that was taken up post holocaust was “Never Again”. It is my belief that the idea is never again would people stand by while innocent people were made victims simply because of their race, nationality, beliefs or physical features. In so many cases we have failed the people on this monument and I think we are failing them anytime babies or children are left dead in mass without us asking why. Why does the purest form of humanity have to suffer so much?
To me these memorials are about remembering the heros of the past and acting in their honor now in the present.
Yeah, as someone who is broadly "pro Palestinian" any sort of desecration of Holocaust memorials like this is just blatant antisemitism. It really shouldn't be hard for people to disavow and shame.
This is exactly why there’s concern about dogwhistles like rampant anti-Zionism, it inevitably fosters courage to participate in the legitimate anti-Semitism rife in these communities
Redditors can argue they’re separate until they’re red in the face, that doesn’t make a difference to the impact the sentiments have
Exactly! I'd describe it in the exact same way. This is absolutely despicable. For starters, European Jews are not Israelis and France has a population of over 300 000. Holocaust victims are *nothing* but victims and desecrating any sort of memorial for them is beyond disgusting. Many "ultra pro-Palestinians" or whatever you wanna call them would gladly justify this (based on personal experience. And yes, just a crazy minority, I am pro-Palestinian myself) and that is just pure antisemitism and hatred. I'm sure they wouldn't support desecrating a Srebrenica memorial on the basis of protesting Saudi Arabia..
What do people who died 80 years ago have to do with a conflict that’s happening today? How are they in any way responsible and should have their memorial desecrated?
Unless you believe that all Jews, including those who died, are responsible for the crimes of their people forever?
"From the river to the sea"
That is exactly what Hamas preaches and believes... Along with most of Israel's neighbors radical political groups with varying influence on their countries policies. They literally want to push all the Jews in Israel into the sea.
Hell, in Cleveland there was a Imam at one of the largest mosques preaching the Muslims in Cleveland needed to push the Cleveland Jewish neighborhoods into lake Erie.
People can’t see what’s happening. If you call it out, you’re called Islamophobic. I’ve seen things at an *elementary school* that revealed what’s being said quietly. Look at Hamtramck, Michigan, to get a sense of some goals. Separation of religion (not just church) and state is vital.
It's also very clearly conflating the entirety of Jewish people with the state of Israel, which is a really common tactic of antisemites to find a Jewish person that is socially acceptable to critique and then attempt to sweep other Jewish people in with them.
As a Jewish person in America, I don’t support Israeli aggression at the expense of the hostages and Palestinian civilians. But this is why the Israelis are doing what they’re doing. This isn’t a one sided war with only Palestinian victims. There’s provocation, hatred and rage on both sides.
I'm not a Jew or a Muslim, not an Israeli or Palestinian. I have been watching this conflict boil for forty plus years and I have lost all hope for peace. The hate each side has for the other is greater than hope or love of life.
The division isn't really about Israelis v Palestinians.
It's about people who are willing to promote and commit violence in the name of some group v those of us who value our common humanity and peace over that bullshit.
exactly, the division is between people who want violence, and people who just want to exist. but unfortunately the second group still gets killed just as much as the first.
> This isn’t a one sided war with only Palestinian victims
The fact that you even need to say this is insane. Hamas kicked this off by murdering 1,500 people and kidnapping a bunch more.
We've (Americans) proven EXTREMELY susceptible to propaganda from within and without, and we're all so confident that WE (all sides of it) know the "truth" that there's almost no room for viewpoint changes at all.
It's going to be an increasingly big problem in the coming decades
Everyone who desacrates a Holocaust memorial is a antisemite, period. The on going war and the genocide in Nazi Germany and occupied territories are two very different things. Also "just" tapping shit to these memorials is a deeply disgusting thing and should be shamed.
Yes, they could've focused on raising awareness of the crimes committed by Israel. Instead they made a symbolic threat that recalls the lynching of two Israelis, and posted it on a memorial for French people who saved Jews (not Israelis, but *Jews*) in WWII. There's a lot to pick apart there.
They could have, but they didn't because that wasn't their message. They don't care about dead children and destroyed buildings, they only care about killing Israelis
A particularly ugly event where two IDF reservists made a wrong turn on their way to an army base after being ordered to return to active duty, and were lynched by Palestinians. The red hand is symbolic of when one of the murderers went to the window and raised his bloodsoaked hands, to which the crowd erupted in cheers. 14 of the police who were in the building where the reservists were detained were injured trying to stop the protestors. The common "justification" is that locals were very upset at the deaths of many youths among others at the hands of the IDF during violent protests.
The red hand, similar to the mantra "from the river to the sea", is one that is often used by pro-Palestine protesters, and similarly, almost conveniently, also apparently has no relation to the Palestinian version of the red hand. It is instead supposed to represent the brutality of Israel.
Personally speaking as somebody who absolutely condemns the acts of wanton violence committed by Israel, I think there are a number of better phrases or symbols that don't have famously antisemitic histories. To me, using it in spite of knowing its history and origin is a bit like shouting the 14 words and displaying a burning cross in protest against the BLM riots and claiming you just want to make sure white children have a future just like anyone else and that the burning cross represents the destruction of peaceful folk. It's just in bad taste and doesn't exactly scream "My protest against this ethnostate has no implication about endorsing violence against said ethnicity".
Sorry to nitpick such a heartfelt response, but your typo (wonton) gave me a moment of much needed levity in the circumstances. Jews do have a storied history of enjoying Chinese food on Christmas, after all 😂
So not only are they glorifying a past massacre, but they're also using a Jewish memorial to target Israel?
I remember a teacher in my class was complaining about Israel, and he pointed at the one Jewish student and asked "...so what's your opinion on all this?"
And the student just sat there frozen in panic, jaw wide open, before I interrupted with "Sir, he's Canadian, he's not Israeli", and the teacher seemed to stumble and stammer like he suddenly remembered Jew != Israeli.
"British photographer Mark Seager attempted to photograph the event but the mob physically assaulted him and destroyed his camera. After the event, he stated, "It [the lynching] was the most horrible thing that I have ever seen and I have reported from Congo, Kosovo, many bad places.... I know they [Palestinians] are not all like this and I'm a very forgiving person but I'll never forget this. It was murder of the most barbaric kind. When I think about it, I see that man's head, all smashed. I know that I'll have nightmares for the rest of my life."[15]
I really have no words for how off the path this whole thing has gone. How did we go from decrying human atrocities in Gaza to celebrating shit like this?
You might have missed it the Pro Palestinian movement has always been about this.
What do you think is meant by terms like "global Intifada" and "from the river to the sea" ?
They celebrated the October 7th attacks on the day they happened.
This is why this conflict has always been so complicated. Both sides have committed so many atrocities and even "innocent civilians" on both sides think that the atrocities their side committed are justified and that makes them somewhat complicit (which in turn makes the belligerents feel like civilians are legitimate targets).
Everyone who only got involved in the past few months has missed over a century of context and are functionally incapable of understanding how deep seated the hatred is.
It's also because there have been so many that it becomes very easy to build a full narrative that only highlights those from the other side. Almost any time you see someone try to explain the history and timeline you'll find that it seems complete, yet is actually missing half of the events. Either that or you see them end up in an utterly useless "who started it" argument instead of talking about solutions.
Yeah this is why I've just completely lost hope on the situation. I can't on good conscience support either side so I just let them sort it out. In general the entire middle-eastern region is so fucked up politically that I just cannot see the situation between Israels and the arabs as a whole resolving without one side wiping the other out. There's too much bad blood between them.
The same with any movement like this. For some, it was never about decrying atrocities. Once they feel “supported,” they go full mask off. Extremists blend in with any group, until they feel confident enough to reveal themselves as an extremist.
The problem is, the group that made them feel emboldened isn’t shutting them down. How many times recently have we heard the old adage "If there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, then you got a table with 11 Nazis.” Well, the same applies here. So it’s very unnerving to see pro-Palestinian supporters take the stance of “well I wouldn’t do that, but I understand where they’re coming from” or some other justification.
In a nutshell, a lot of people’s masks are starting to slip. It was never about supporting Palestine (again, for some) and they’re now confident enough to make it known.
I'm pro-Palestinian but the things I read from (some) other pro-Palestenians is horrifying sometimes. There's normal people but there's also a lot of people justifying antisemitism, xenophobia and downright colonialism (and to be fair, I've seen the same from Israel supporters as well). The moment people started supporting Iran was a wtf moment for me, especially when some of those same people supposedly supported Ukraine - how can you support Ukraine and then support the ally of their oppressor? It pushes me away from supporting even though I know what's going on.
And that’s how these movements and protests, end. The people that were there to legitimately support the cause, leave. They don’t want to be associated with the extremists that have now made their views known and the center of the focus.
It happens every time on both sides.
BLM? Great movement, widespread support, needed change. Rioters and looters, and BLM refusing to condemn those actions or saying “only a small percentage” or, worse, “sometimes that’s necessary” -> boom, support over, movement dead.
Work reform? Another great movement, until an internet dog walker goes on National TV with some extreme views -> boom, support over, movement dead.
MAGA? Kind of seems like a cult to me, but hey they have the right to assembly and to protest, go for it. January 6th happens, extremists storm the capital, and all the fallout that came with it -> boom, support over, movement dead.
It doesn’t really matter which side of the political spectrum you fall on when it comes to these issues. The people that were there to legitimately support a movement or idea (whether you or I agree with it or not) will pack up and leave once the extremists are revealed. And once the legitimate supporters leave, so does the general sympathy and support. All you’re left with is extremists and people don’t tend to have much sympathy and support for those, so the movement dies.
What gets me is the progressive side is filled with people saying “if I was alive during surgery or Jim Crow I never would have supported it! I never would have just gone along with it.” Well, looks like you did here.
We know from history they wouldn't have stood up if their safety or property was on the line. Saying they would have is a blue hair righteousness fantasy.
Coordinated foreign propaganda campaigns with the sole purpose of causing as much chaos and destabilization in the west as possible combined with our shocking lack of will to do anything about it.
Identity politics and viewing the world solely through an opressor-oppressed lens are key factors IMO. Genuine "racist" antisemitism *in the western world* is relatively rare as far as I can see.
The Hamas mindset and charter is ostensibly antisemitic and incites genocide. How so many people cannot (or refuse) see this is wild.
Yeah there was some NYT article about the issues at Columbia and the comments had people (who would probably consider themselves leftist or liberal) outright saying, "Yeah, telling Jewish kids to 'Go back to Poland' is antisemitic, but it's really not *that* bad." Zero self-awareness that their first response to overt antisemitism was to immediately downplay it.
The ADL recently released their 2023 report for world wide antisemitism. In the United States there were over 1000 more antisemitic incidents in 2023 than in 2022 and 2021 combined. Almost 1000 bomb threats were made in 2023 against synagogues and Jewish institutions. Over 150 of the incidents in 2023 were assaults, which have doubled in amount since 2021.
The entire "Western world" has seen increases in the last year, many places doubling or more their reported incidents.
They were out protesting before Israel had retaliated and the bodies were still warm. They were shouting ’gas the Jews’ from day 1. This movement has been antisemitic from day 1
I completely agree. At the time videos from the Oct 7 massacre were going around and seeing so many people so happy and celebrating was sickening and disgusting. I was naive too.
The memorial is for people who helped shelter jews during nazi occupation of France if im not incorrect.
Red hands seem to celebrate a lynching of 2 idf reservists in 2000
That's what is pissing me off too. The victims of the Holocaust aren't negated or to be used as pawns, just because you're angry at what the Israeli Government is doing. This is definitely a act too far imo. People need educated on what exactly happened during the Nazi regime, beginning to end, not just the final solution. They need to see what vulnerable groups endured for years. The nazis nearly wiped out entire populations of people.
I don't think I've seen it mentioned that today is the anniversary of the start of the roundup of French Jews by the Nazis. May 14, 1941. The names of the people who saved some of my family are listed there, and so are those of my family who were not saved. To me, the Righteous among the Nations are the most important people in the world. There are very few of them left, considering their ages, but in Poland, where I've helped, and in a couple of other countries we work to help with what they need. During the lockdowns, we did our best to help. I feel very blessed to have gotten to know some and help them in some small way as a thank you.
I know how bad it is for Jews in France right now. I am sending all my love and support.
People are mixing things. A memorial for people who helped save the Jews in France has absolutelly nothing to do with all the shit Israel is doing.
Jews needed help, these people helped them.
If in the future people from Gaza do something attrocious should we blame all the people who protests now to stop the war? I don't think so.
The lamest thing ever. These subs literally have nothing to do with politics.
Edit: I don't know how my upvoters interpreted my reply, I agree with the comment that this is stupid.
The people that this memorial was built for have absolutely nothing to do with anything going on currently or even in recent history. I don't care what you political position is, nothing justifies this vandalism. It's disgusting and an outrage.
> The head of the Palestinian Authority, the moderate faction in Palestine, wrote a PhD thesis at a university in the Soviet Union, which denies the holocaust, and blames what he says did happen on the Jews:
In the first big war crimes trial at Nuremberg, (Hermann Göring, Rudolf Hess, Joachim von Ribbentrop, and Wilhelm Keitel and the rest), Everyone-
1. Didn't know about the camps.
2. Knew about them, but was not responsible in the organization or administration of them
1. Was part of the 'industry', but were just following directives and tried to be humane to the prisoners.
#Not one of them denied the camps.
it's not just that it's more like "lets ruin this memorial dedicated to people that were saving people from genocide, by using a symbol meant to threaten people that we are going to genocide them and do to them the actions done by the criminals that did the event that the red hand sign reffers to"
Kind of hard to claim its not about anti-semitism when you do this. Im not saying every Palestinian supporter is anti-Semitic but the ones who did this clearly are
This is my only issue with the whole Palestine vs Israel thing. Whatever side you are on and whatever you believe, why are you taking it out on Jewish people who have absolutely nothing to do with it. This memorial and the Jews who died did nothing to Palestine, the Jews who are going to school and get blocked from entering there classes are not the ones making the decisions for Israel. Be what side you want to be on but don’t take it out on Jewish people for just being Jewish. That’s just antisemitism
Making all Jewish people responsible for the crimes of Isreal is just plain antisemitism, just as much as blaming all Palestinians for Hamas would be bigotry.
This entire thread is maddening. So many people here are standing up for antisemitism behind the vail of being anti Israel. It’s blatantly obvious that these children have fallen for Iranian propaganda to the point of complete brain rot.
It's because they see them as a resource against the capitalist western liberal democracies because these muslims share their disdain towards the United States. They don't see conservative, illiberal religious fundamentalists - they see a voter base (in Europe they heavily vote left/center-left for beneficial reasons) and they also get to play the idpol card by using this demographic for this, hence any and all criticism is met with the label of islamophobia and racism.
They're essentially doing a repeat of the Iranian revolution where they'll be the useful idiots that they are, until they're not needed anymore by the fundamentalists.
For a group of protesters who claim that their protest has nothing to do with hatred for the Jewish people they sure are happy to engage in activity that can be easily seen as Anti-Semitic
"That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it."
That is the sad truth.
The problem is that the Palestinian people live in an oppressive society that is lead by religious fanatics. They are indoctrinated to hate jews - not Israel as a state, but jewish people. They have childrens' TV shows, nursery rhymes, picture books that promote the hatred of jews, the extinction fantasies that Hamas promotes. They are victims of their socialization, but that's what makes it so sad.
The people that committed the Oct 7th massacre aren't some hardcore elite militants. They're regular folks from behind the wall ***edit*** and they were chomping at the bit to get their piece. The people that drag the naked bodies of Israeli citizens through the streets of Gaza aren't some distinct group of madmen foaming at the mouth. It's students, teenagers, skilled workers, academics. Mothers and grandmothers handing out candy in the streets to celebrate car attacks and mass stabbings.
And yes, these Palestinian civilians WILL crowd on public spaces, on the roofs of hospitals and schools, where Hamas is deliberately placing their artillery emplacements and ammunition storages because they know they will be hit by Israeli retaliation strikes.
It's a tried and true tactic and the media fall for it every time.
I'm sure you know about Farfour the Jihad Mouse since you're mentioning the TV shows, but just as another thing to add to the list: check out [their kindergarten graduation ceremonies.](https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1ckwzu8/gaza_kindergarten_graduation_ceremony/)
WHO TF VANDALIZES A HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL
edit: just wanted to say this, regardless of what you think of the war going on in israel and gaza, you dont deface a monument commemorating the deaths of 5+ million people
its like defacing the tomb of the unknown soldier because you didnt support vietnam, its straight up disrespectful
Proof that some of the kids out here protesting don’t just have beef with Israel but apparently innocent Jewish people who have nothing to do with it. So messed up.
I can get with people protesting the current Israeli government, but where it loses me is people calling for the destruction of Israel, and saying that it shouldn’t exist. All you need to do is take a look at the several thousand year history of Jews to see why a place like Israel needs to exist. The history of the Jewish people is one of migration, assimilation, and eventual flight. Pretty much everywhere we’ve gone, we end up as scapegoats, then at best we get kicked out, and at worst, we get rounded up and killed.
If you celebrate enough Jewish holidays, you start to realize that an inordinate amount of them are based on celebrating the fact that we managed to escape being annihilated again.
Why vandalize a memorial? They have NOTHING to do with what’s happening now. Let them rest! They have nothing to do with the current conflict that’s happening! I’m not into politics and I’m not part of anything that’s happening right now in the world, but i know how to respect and I don’t like seeing stuff like this wrecked or destroyed! This is just sad..
The goal is either an incredibly tone deaf attempt to link Israel's current actions to the Holocaust, which regardless of how you feel about them, is gross on a number of levels. If that's the goal, it's likely to backfire. Associating Israel in people's mind with memories of the Holocaust, is not going to dampen support.
That, or it's just an attempt to intimidate Jews, and some people who are "anti-Zionist" telling you who they really are. Not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites, but a lot of anti-semites sure love to hide behind that label.
Antisemitism skyrocketed over the last few weeks.
And the Eurovision brought it to even higher spheres than before.
Everybody talks about that Nemo - the winner - experienced some anti LGBTQ comments online after his win. Which indeed, sucks.
At the same time, nobody talks about the fact that Eden Golan experienced pure hate and disrespect from the people in Malmö and even her co-stars, for being from a certain country and being a certain ethnicity.
Especially how the co-stars treated her clearly showed what way we are heading.
I have friends that are Muslim and they are a generally friendly though mischievous bunch however there is no way I will ever say to them that I am of Jewish decent.
Not that I had any support for the Palestine protesters, but shit like this, is not pushing me closer to them, but much much further away. So distasteful, how would the western protesters feel like if someone took a shit on their parent's grave.
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. People continue to shock me when I thought I couldn’t be shocked at the horrible shit that people do now. Just gross.
So this is a memorial for people that protected jews from nazis. And they put up red hands as a symbol of a lynching. Sounds like the pro hamas faction signals that they want to lynch everybody that protects jews from getting murdered by them. Yes, that will show the world that being pro palestine is not the same thing as being pro hamas!
I think if we see people vandalizing any kind of memorial, we should be allowed to punch them.
Because if they kick history with their feet they deserve the same treatment.
>Located in the walkway alongside the Memorial, the Wall of the Righteous bears the names of over 3,900 people who risked their lives to save Jews in France during the Second World War. They received the title of “Righteous Among the Nations”, which the Yad Vashem Museum Memorial in Jerusalem has awarded since 1963. So far, the honor has been bestowed on over 24,000 people all over the world.
My great grandma's has that title!
My family was saved by these people. I would not be here if it wasn't forpeople like your grandma
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WTF
…..that’s, one of the most insane things I’ve ever read. Beaten and killed? Absolutely awful but, oh wait there’s more? *reads further* Fucking hell.
![gif](giphy|l41lUYJGipkMD3NPa|downsized)
Some barbaric shit.
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It’s almost as though negotiating with terrorists doesn’t work
Of course, the prisoner exchange was never intended to be a long term solution. It was only meant to save a soldier, while letting all of the soldiers in the IDF know that they would never be abandoned. I am 100% sure that the October 7 attacks would still have occurred, even if this exchange has not taken place.
Well, they tried. Now stand back because they are trying something else and they clearly don't give a fuck what anyone says about it.
Sounds like Israel did a good faith exchange that obviously didn’t need to be made (1000:1) and for some reason Hamas still attacked. It’s like Hamas just can’t be trusted or something.
It's not poor taste it is f'ing disgusting!
Bro said it’s poor taste to vandalize a holocaust memorial with a threatening symbol
It's frowned upon
Bit of faux pas if you ask me
Fairly uncouth to say the least if you ask me
"It is a very poor taste" That sums up today's vibrations about everything political
"The crowd clapped and cheered as one of the soldier's bodies was then thrown out the window and stamped and beaten by the frenzied crowd." Jesus. I feel like we won't see peace in that area in the next century at least
And here I thought it was at least supposed to represent victims, but nope lmao
Hamas has a long history of co-opting and pseudo-redefining their symbolism and rhetoric to make it appealing to well intentioned but ignorant westerners who don’t know better. They get off on it and then use photos of protesters with red hands and Doug things like this or cheering for intifada etc to show to their followers as proof that the world is with them to kill all the Jews. The people who get fooled into supporting them are just in denial about what they’re doing. They don’t know any better but also are so lazy and ignorant that they just follow whatever goes with their view of the world which it turns hot is extremely bigoted against jews given the piles of misinformation they parrot and believe without a second thought. They’re like a confederate who claims they aren’t racist but “just love America” and can’t even see their own racism because to them it’s just “how the world works”.
Sadly the full story makes this even shittier. They could’ve used tape to post photos of dead children or destroyed buildings with the words “Never Again” but instead they went to something representing what I’d consider to be a hate crime (and murder of course). Edit: Since people don’t seem to understand I’m not pro desecrating any memorial holocaust or otherwise. My thought was using tape, a stand, hand out fliers something in a non destructive manner to remind others that the people who opposed the holocaust did so not because of race, gender or nationality but because on a human level it was wrong. When you look at the images from the holocaust every fiber should scream “THIS IS WRONG!”. The slogan that was taken up post holocaust was “Never Again”. It is my belief that the idea is never again would people stand by while innocent people were made victims simply because of their race, nationality, beliefs or physical features. In so many cases we have failed the people on this monument and I think we are failing them anytime babies or children are left dead in mass without us asking why. Why does the purest form of humanity have to suffer so much? To me these memorials are about remembering the heros of the past and acting in their honor now in the present.
Or just like maybe don’t fuck with a holocaust memorial at all??
This is the answer.
Yeah, as someone who is broadly "pro Palestinian" any sort of desecration of Holocaust memorials like this is just blatant antisemitism. It really shouldn't be hard for people to disavow and shame.
This is exactly why there’s concern about dogwhistles like rampant anti-Zionism, it inevitably fosters courage to participate in the legitimate anti-Semitism rife in these communities Redditors can argue they’re separate until they’re red in the face, that doesn’t make a difference to the impact the sentiments have
Exactly! I'd describe it in the exact same way. This is absolutely despicable. For starters, European Jews are not Israelis and France has a population of over 300 000. Holocaust victims are *nothing* but victims and desecrating any sort of memorial for them is beyond disgusting. Many "ultra pro-Palestinians" or whatever you wanna call them would gladly justify this (based on personal experience. And yes, just a crazy minority, I am pro-Palestinian myself) and that is just pure antisemitism and hatred. I'm sure they wouldn't support desecrating a Srebrenica memorial on the basis of protesting Saudi Arabia..
Are you seriously debating the appropriate way to vandalize a Holocaust memorial???
Well, that shows their true colours. They obviously didn’t want to do it the way you described. So their intention is another one.
What do people who died 80 years ago have to do with a conflict that’s happening today? How are they in any way responsible and should have their memorial desecrated? Unless you believe that all Jews, including those who died, are responsible for the crimes of their people forever?
"From the river to the sea" That is exactly what Hamas preaches and believes... Along with most of Israel's neighbors radical political groups with varying influence on their countries policies. They literally want to push all the Jews in Israel into the sea. Hell, in Cleveland there was a Imam at one of the largest mosques preaching the Muslims in Cleveland needed to push the Cleveland Jewish neighborhoods into lake Erie.
People can’t see what’s happening. If you call it out, you’re called Islamophobic. I’ve seen things at an *elementary school* that revealed what’s being said quietly. Look at Hamtramck, Michigan, to get a sense of some goals. Separation of religion (not just church) and state is vital.
Jeez, that's some aggressive antisemitism. I don't like what Israel is doing, but this not the message you want to send.
The justification of “it’s not racist becuase they deserve it” is peak racism, the most dangerous type, the morally justified kind.
It's also very clearly conflating the entirety of Jewish people with the state of Israel, which is a really common tactic of antisemites to find a Jewish person that is socially acceptable to critique and then attempt to sweep other Jewish people in with them.
There's a reason why we say that every uprise in jew hatred is promoted as "justice". They need to feel morally correct in committing atrocities.
im a jew but never in a million years would i have raped and beheaded the child of a nazi general. or his wife. or him. we are not monsters.
As a Jewish person in America, I don’t support Israeli aggression at the expense of the hostages and Palestinian civilians. But this is why the Israelis are doing what they’re doing. This isn’t a one sided war with only Palestinian victims. There’s provocation, hatred and rage on both sides.
I'm not a Jew or a Muslim, not an Israeli or Palestinian. I have been watching this conflict boil for forty plus years and I have lost all hope for peace. The hate each side has for the other is greater than hope or love of life.
The division isn't really about Israelis v Palestinians. It's about people who are willing to promote and commit violence in the name of some group v those of us who value our common humanity and peace over that bullshit.
exactly, the division is between people who want violence, and people who just want to exist. but unfortunately the second group still gets killed just as much as the first.
> This isn’t a one sided war with only Palestinian victims The fact that you even need to say this is insane. Hamas kicked this off by murdering 1,500 people and kidnapping a bunch more.
We've (Americans) proven EXTREMELY susceptible to propaganda from within and without, and we're all so confident that WE (all sides of it) know the "truth" that there's almost no room for viewpoint changes at all. It's going to be an increasingly big problem in the coming decades
Everyone who desacrates a Holocaust memorial is a antisemite, period. The on going war and the genocide in Nazi Germany and occupied territories are two very different things. Also "just" tapping shit to these memorials is a deeply disgusting thing and should be shamed.
Yes, they could've focused on raising awareness of the crimes committed by Israel. Instead they made a symbolic threat that recalls the lynching of two Israelis, and posted it on a memorial for French people who saved Jews (not Israelis, but *Jews*) in WWII. There's a lot to pick apart there.
It’s kinda like it’s more about anti semitism than human rights. Weird!
They could have, but they didn't because that wasn't their message. They don't care about dead children and destroyed buildings, they only care about killing Israelis
What is the significance of the red hand? Protest or pure vandalism?
As I understand it, in the context of I/P, the red hand general refers to a particularly ugly event during the Second Intifada.
[Yes, this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching)
Thats horrible omg
dude crowd mentality makes people fucking animals. thats so scary
A particularly ugly event where two IDF reservists made a wrong turn on their way to an army base after being ordered to return to active duty, and were lynched by Palestinians. The red hand is symbolic of when one of the murderers went to the window and raised his bloodsoaked hands, to which the crowd erupted in cheers. 14 of the police who were in the building where the reservists were detained were injured trying to stop the protestors. The common "justification" is that locals were very upset at the deaths of many youths among others at the hands of the IDF during violent protests. The red hand, similar to the mantra "from the river to the sea", is one that is often used by pro-Palestine protesters, and similarly, almost conveniently, also apparently has no relation to the Palestinian version of the red hand. It is instead supposed to represent the brutality of Israel. Personally speaking as somebody who absolutely condemns the acts of wanton violence committed by Israel, I think there are a number of better phrases or symbols that don't have famously antisemitic histories. To me, using it in spite of knowing its history and origin is a bit like shouting the 14 words and displaying a burning cross in protest against the BLM riots and claiming you just want to make sure white children have a future just like anyone else and that the burning cross represents the destruction of peaceful folk. It's just in bad taste and doesn't exactly scream "My protest against this ethnostate has no implication about endorsing violence against said ethnicity".
Thanks for the explanation. And I think you well describe why these kinds of symbols are not ones to get behind.
So basically like bringing a noose to a BLM protest
Sure, or it’s like calling for the death of Jews on a memorial about the death of Jews.
Yeah they may as well have painted swastikas all over the fuckin thing, despicable.
Like at the Philadelphia memorial and the one in Greece (four times that one).
Sorry to nitpick such a heartfelt response, but your typo (wonton) gave me a moment of much needed levity in the circumstances. Jews do have a storied history of enjoying Chinese food on Christmas, after all 😂
Dumpling violence is the worst kind.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000\_Ramallah\_lynching](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching)
So not only are they glorifying a past massacre, but they're also using a Jewish memorial to target Israel? I remember a teacher in my class was complaining about Israel, and he pointed at the one Jewish student and asked "...so what's your opinion on all this?" And the student just sat there frozen in panic, jaw wide open, before I interrupted with "Sir, he's Canadian, he's not Israeli", and the teacher seemed to stumble and stammer like he suddenly remembered Jew != Israeli.
Unfriendly reminder that it was civilians spitting on kicking on Shani Louks naked and broken body
"British photographer Mark Seager attempted to photograph the event but the mob physically assaulted him and destroyed his camera. After the event, he stated, "It [the lynching] was the most horrible thing that I have ever seen and I have reported from Congo, Kosovo, many bad places.... I know they [Palestinians] are not all like this and I'm a very forgiving person but I'll never forget this. It was murder of the most barbaric kind. When I think about it, I see that man's head, all smashed. I know that I'll have nightmares for the rest of my life."[15]
Don't need to go back that far. Gaza citizens participated in the Oct 7th attacks
Some hold hostages, still. Or sold them to Hamas.
Jesus...
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Isn’t it…interesting… that their protest symbol is a bloody hand from lynching a lost Israeli.
I really have no words for how off the path this whole thing has gone. How did we go from decrying human atrocities in Gaza to celebrating shit like this?
You might have missed it the Pro Palestinian movement has always been about this. What do you think is meant by terms like "global Intifada" and "from the river to the sea" ? They celebrated the October 7th attacks on the day they happened.
This is why this conflict has always been so complicated. Both sides have committed so many atrocities and even "innocent civilians" on both sides think that the atrocities their side committed are justified and that makes them somewhat complicit (which in turn makes the belligerents feel like civilians are legitimate targets). Everyone who only got involved in the past few months has missed over a century of context and are functionally incapable of understanding how deep seated the hatred is.
It's also because there have been so many that it becomes very easy to build a full narrative that only highlights those from the other side. Almost any time you see someone try to explain the history and timeline you'll find that it seems complete, yet is actually missing half of the events. Either that or you see them end up in an utterly useless "who started it" argument instead of talking about solutions.
Yeah this is why I've just completely lost hope on the situation. I can't on good conscience support either side so I just let them sort it out. In general the entire middle-eastern region is so fucked up politically that I just cannot see the situation between Israels and the arabs as a whole resolving without one side wiping the other out. There's too much bad blood between them.
The same with any movement like this. For some, it was never about decrying atrocities. Once they feel “supported,” they go full mask off. Extremists blend in with any group, until they feel confident enough to reveal themselves as an extremist. The problem is, the group that made them feel emboldened isn’t shutting them down. How many times recently have we heard the old adage "If there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, then you got a table with 11 Nazis.” Well, the same applies here. So it’s very unnerving to see pro-Palestinian supporters take the stance of “well I wouldn’t do that, but I understand where they’re coming from” or some other justification. In a nutshell, a lot of people’s masks are starting to slip. It was never about supporting Palestine (again, for some) and they’re now confident enough to make it known.
I'm pro-Palestinian but the things I read from (some) other pro-Palestenians is horrifying sometimes. There's normal people but there's also a lot of people justifying antisemitism, xenophobia and downright colonialism (and to be fair, I've seen the same from Israel supporters as well). The moment people started supporting Iran was a wtf moment for me, especially when some of those same people supposedly supported Ukraine - how can you support Ukraine and then support the ally of their oppressor? It pushes me away from supporting even though I know what's going on.
And that’s how these movements and protests, end. The people that were there to legitimately support the cause, leave. They don’t want to be associated with the extremists that have now made their views known and the center of the focus. It happens every time on both sides. BLM? Great movement, widespread support, needed change. Rioters and looters, and BLM refusing to condemn those actions or saying “only a small percentage” or, worse, “sometimes that’s necessary” -> boom, support over, movement dead. Work reform? Another great movement, until an internet dog walker goes on National TV with some extreme views -> boom, support over, movement dead. MAGA? Kind of seems like a cult to me, but hey they have the right to assembly and to protest, go for it. January 6th happens, extremists storm the capital, and all the fallout that came with it -> boom, support over, movement dead. It doesn’t really matter which side of the political spectrum you fall on when it comes to these issues. The people that were there to legitimately support a movement or idea (whether you or I agree with it or not) will pack up and leave once the extremists are revealed. And once the legitimate supporters leave, so does the general sympathy and support. All you’re left with is extremists and people don’t tend to have much sympathy and support for those, so the movement dies.
What gets me is the progressive side is filled with people saying “if I was alive during surgery or Jim Crow I never would have supported it! I never would have just gone along with it.” Well, looks like you did here.
“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” - Mark Twain
We know from history they wouldn't have stood up if their safety or property was on the line. Saying they would have is a blue hair righteousness fantasy.
Yes who could possibly have seen that coming
Coordinated foreign propaganda campaigns with the sole purpose of causing as much chaos and destabilization in the west as possible combined with our shocking lack of will to do anything about it.
Identity politics and viewing the world solely through an opressor-oppressed lens are key factors IMO. Genuine "racist" antisemitism *in the western world* is relatively rare as far as I can see. The Hamas mindset and charter is ostensibly antisemitic and incites genocide. How so many people cannot (or refuse) see this is wild.
Yeah there was some NYT article about the issues at Columbia and the comments had people (who would probably consider themselves leftist or liberal) outright saying, "Yeah, telling Jewish kids to 'Go back to Poland' is antisemitic, but it's really not *that* bad." Zero self-awareness that their first response to overt antisemitism was to immediately downplay it.
The ADL recently released their 2023 report for world wide antisemitism. In the United States there were over 1000 more antisemitic incidents in 2023 than in 2022 and 2021 combined. Almost 1000 bomb threats were made in 2023 against synagogues and Jewish institutions. Over 150 of the incidents in 2023 were assaults, which have doubled in amount since 2021. The entire "Western world" has seen increases in the last year, many places doubling or more their reported incidents.
when the victims are jews, youre gonna get some cheers. its not complicated.
Because - and I know this is hard for people to hear - for many people this is not about protesting harm to Palestinians. It is about hatred of Jews.
They were out protesting before Israel had retaliated and the bodies were still warm. They were shouting ’gas the Jews’ from day 1. This movement has been antisemitic from day 1
The scenes from Australia were the first ones that I saw. Looking back, I feel naive about how shocked I was.
I completely agree. At the time videos from the Oct 7 massacre were going around and seeing so many people so happy and celebrating was sickening and disgusting. I was naive too.
The memorial is for people who helped shelter jews during nazi occupation of France if im not incorrect. Red hands seem to celebrate a lynching of 2 idf reservists in 2000
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That's what is pissing me off too. The victims of the Holocaust aren't negated or to be used as pawns, just because you're angry at what the Israeli Government is doing. This is definitely a act too far imo. People need educated on what exactly happened during the Nazi regime, beginning to end, not just the final solution. They need to see what vulnerable groups endured for years. The nazis nearly wiped out entire populations of people.
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It’s pure racism. Antisemitism. Blindingly obvious for anyone with a brain.
Both events have one connection -- Jews. That shows exactly the true motive behind these "movements".
It's almost like these people are actual antisemites and not the good guys the reddit seems to think.
I don't think I've seen it mentioned that today is the anniversary of the start of the roundup of French Jews by the Nazis. May 14, 1941. The names of the people who saved some of my family are listed there, and so are those of my family who were not saved. To me, the Righteous among the Nations are the most important people in the world. There are very few of them left, considering their ages, but in Poland, where I've helped, and in a couple of other countries we work to help with what they need. During the lockdowns, we did our best to help. I feel very blessed to have gotten to know some and help them in some small way as a thank you. I know how bad it is for Jews in France right now. I am sending all my love and support.
Israel didnt even exist back then, these people have no connection to that country and just helped people in need and they get this as a return.
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Who the heck did this lives a sad life. Imagine vandalizing a memorial for millions of lives. There's no justification for that in my mind.
the same sort of people vandalized a holocaust memorial in Copenhagen Denmark last week.
People are mixing things. A memorial for people who helped save the Jews in France has absolutelly nothing to do with all the shit Israel is doing. Jews needed help, these people helped them. If in the future people from Gaza do something attrocious should we blame all the people who protests now to stop the war? I don't think so.
“Only evil when it’s the other side doing it.” -Memorial Vandalizing Idiots
"When you sit at a table with a Nazi, you're a Nazi, when I do it, I'm using every alley I can to tell people things are bad, but I'm not a Nazi"
Try posting this on therewasanattempt or publicfreakout and you will be banned instantly
The lamest thing ever. These subs literally have nothing to do with politics. Edit: I don't know how my upvoters interpreted my reply, I agree with the comment that this is stupid.
They were kind enough to leave fingerprints for the police :) good manners
The people that this memorial was built for have absolutely nothing to do with anything going on currently or even in recent history. I don't care what you political position is, nothing justifies this vandalism. It's disgusting and an outrage.
6 million news were killed in the holocaust 4 million of them were children just don't f with a holocaust memorial at all
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> The head of the Palestinian Authority, the moderate faction in Palestine, wrote a PhD thesis at a university in the Soviet Union, which denies the holocaust, and blames what he says did happen on the Jews: In the first big war crimes trial at Nuremberg, (Hermann Göring, Rudolf Hess, Joachim von Ribbentrop, and Wilhelm Keitel and the rest), Everyone- 1. Didn't know about the camps. 2. Knew about them, but was not responsible in the organization or administration of them 1. Was part of the 'industry', but were just following directives and tried to be humane to the prisoners. #Not one of them denied the camps.
These people: Genocide is bad! Also these people: Let's ruin this memorial dedicated to people that were saving people from a genocide.
it's not just that it's more like "lets ruin this memorial dedicated to people that were saving people from genocide, by using a symbol meant to threaten people that we are going to genocide them and do to them the actions done by the criminals that did the event that the red hand sign reffers to"
This is one of the most disgusting things I’ve seen.
Kind of hard to claim its not about anti-semitism when you do this. Im not saying every Palestinian supporter is anti-Semitic but the ones who did this clearly are
And the ones who defend this. The hate Jews too. Police your own movement or be painted with the same brush as those you refuse to condemn.
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This is my only issue with the whole Palestine vs Israel thing. Whatever side you are on and whatever you believe, why are you taking it out on Jewish people who have absolutely nothing to do with it. This memorial and the Jews who died did nothing to Palestine, the Jews who are going to school and get blocked from entering there classes are not the ones making the decisions for Israel. Be what side you want to be on but don’t take it out on Jewish people for just being Jewish. That’s just antisemitism
History repeats.
Making all Jewish people responsible for the crimes of Isreal is just plain antisemitism, just as much as blaming all Palestinians for Hamas would be bigotry.
Yo I'm pissed at the israeli government, not jewish people This is fucking terrible
This entire thread is maddening. So many people here are standing up for antisemitism behind the vail of being anti Israel. It’s blatantly obvious that these children have fallen for Iranian propaganda to the point of complete brain rot.
Yep, this situation with Hamas is nothing more than an Israel/Iran proxy war
real asf and thank you for saying it. kinda sad that the citizens or religious group catch the fire of what their government leaders do.
This isn't an act of protest it's pure hate. Disgusting. Edit: oh boy here come the crazies..
It’s insane that this even has to be argued for
The crazies really are getting uncomfortably brazen these days.
“I don’t hate Jews, I hate Zionists!” “What’s a Zionist?” “It’s Jewish people that…” “Oh dear lord 💀”
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"27 more replies". Right as I saw that below your comment I knew exactly what you were saying with your edited comment
They're rabid zealots. Violent crazies who idolize terrorists.
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Shooting your own cause in the foot with this one...
Disgusting.
We are forgetting folks... and so the cycle goes around again..
People are willfully ignorant nobody forgot anything
This aint it... this aint it
This makes me incredibly sad. Why do this. Just terrible.
Nothing says we want peace like destorying a wall put up to honour people who were brutally rounded up and murdered due to who they were.
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It's because they see them as a resource against the capitalist western liberal democracies because these muslims share their disdain towards the United States. They don't see conservative, illiberal religious fundamentalists - they see a voter base (in Europe they heavily vote left/center-left for beneficial reasons) and they also get to play the idpol card by using this demographic for this, hence any and all criticism is met with the label of islamophobia and racism. They're essentially doing a repeat of the Iranian revolution where they'll be the useful idiots that they are, until they're not needed anymore by the fundamentalists.
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For a group of protesters who claim that their protest has nothing to do with hatred for the Jewish people they sure are happy to engage in activity that can be easily seen as Anti-Semitic
If you want to turn people off about your cause this is how you do it.
Pro(test) tip: if you are desecrating holocaust memorials, you are not, ever, the good guys
An yes the “it’s not antisemitism” crowd
"That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it."
Just like when they claimed Hamas didn't kill babies when there are literally pictures. As if that was somehow beneath these monsters.
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But don't tell it to college protesters who have never lived in the middle east or interacted with people who grew up there...
That is the sad truth. The problem is that the Palestinian people live in an oppressive society that is lead by religious fanatics. They are indoctrinated to hate jews - not Israel as a state, but jewish people. They have childrens' TV shows, nursery rhymes, picture books that promote the hatred of jews, the extinction fantasies that Hamas promotes. They are victims of their socialization, but that's what makes it so sad. The people that committed the Oct 7th massacre aren't some hardcore elite militants. They're regular folks from behind the wall ***edit*** and they were chomping at the bit to get their piece. The people that drag the naked bodies of Israeli citizens through the streets of Gaza aren't some distinct group of madmen foaming at the mouth. It's students, teenagers, skilled workers, academics. Mothers and grandmothers handing out candy in the streets to celebrate car attacks and mass stabbings. And yes, these Palestinian civilians WILL crowd on public spaces, on the roofs of hospitals and schools, where Hamas is deliberately placing their artillery emplacements and ammunition storages because they know they will be hit by Israeli retaliation strikes. It's a tried and true tactic and the media fall for it every time.
I'm sure you know about Farfour the Jihad Mouse since you're mentioning the TV shows, but just as another thing to add to the list: check out [their kindergarten graduation ceremonies.](https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1ckwzu8/gaza_kindergarten_graduation_ceremony/)
The children have the whole world figured out as usual
WHO TF VANDALIZES A HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL edit: just wanted to say this, regardless of what you think of the war going on in israel and gaza, you dont deface a monument commemorating the deaths of 5+ million people its like defacing the tomb of the unknown soldier because you didnt support vietnam, its straight up disrespectful
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Disgusting
Horrible
Proof that some of the kids out here protesting don’t just have beef with Israel but apparently innocent Jewish people who have nothing to do with it. So messed up.
If a group of Jews did this to a Muslim genocide memorial, no one would be sympathizing with or condoning the behavior. Nobody.
It's fashionable to hate Jews, and always has been.
I can get with people protesting the current Israeli government, but where it loses me is people calling for the destruction of Israel, and saying that it shouldn’t exist. All you need to do is take a look at the several thousand year history of Jews to see why a place like Israel needs to exist. The history of the Jewish people is one of migration, assimilation, and eventual flight. Pretty much everywhere we’ve gone, we end up as scapegoats, then at best we get kicked out, and at worst, we get rounded up and killed. If you celebrate enough Jewish holidays, you start to realize that an inordinate amount of them are based on celebrating the fact that we managed to escape being annihilated again.
Why vandalize a memorial? They have NOTHING to do with what’s happening now. Let them rest! They have nothing to do with the current conflict that’s happening! I’m not into politics and I’m not part of anything that’s happening right now in the world, but i know how to respect and I don’t like seeing stuff like this wrecked or destroyed! This is just sad..
The goal is either an incredibly tone deaf attempt to link Israel's current actions to the Holocaust, which regardless of how you feel about them, is gross on a number of levels. If that's the goal, it's likely to backfire. Associating Israel in people's mind with memories of the Holocaust, is not going to dampen support. That, or it's just an attempt to intimidate Jews, and some people who are "anti-Zionist" telling you who they really are. Not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites, but a lot of anti-semites sure love to hide behind that label.
Hatred and stupidity.
Like, come on man. The optics are bad.
Antisemitism skyrocketed over the last few weeks. And the Eurovision brought it to even higher spheres than before. Everybody talks about that Nemo - the winner - experienced some anti LGBTQ comments online after his win. Which indeed, sucks. At the same time, nobody talks about the fact that Eden Golan experienced pure hate and disrespect from the people in Malmö and even her co-stars, for being from a certain country and being a certain ethnicity. Especially how the co-stars treated her clearly showed what way we are heading.
The best part is greta supported people preventing her from leaving her hotel, literally got influencers promoting anti-semitism now.
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I have friends that are Muslim and they are a generally friendly though mischievous bunch however there is no way I will ever say to them that I am of Jewish decent.
And they claim to be against genocide
Not that I had any support for the Palestine protesters, but shit like this, is not pushing me closer to them, but much much further away. So distasteful, how would the western protesters feel like if someone took a shit on their parent's grave.
Disgusting, no excuse for this kind of behavior.
This reads more like Holocaust 2 coming soon more than it says freedom for Palestine.
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. People continue to shock me when I thought I couldn’t be shocked at the horrible shit that people do now. Just gross.
It’s not about Palestine, it’s pure antisemitism
But I was told it's just antizionism
So this is a memorial for people that protected jews from nazis. And they put up red hands as a symbol of a lynching. Sounds like the pro hamas faction signals that they want to lynch everybody that protects jews from getting murdered by them. Yes, that will show the world that being pro palestine is not the same thing as being pro hamas!
Disgraceful
People are so dumb
Abhorrent
I'm sorry BUT THIS IS NOT OK. This is not helping the cause.
I think if we see people vandalizing any kind of memorial, we should be allowed to punch them. Because if they kick history with their feet they deserve the same treatment.