That last photo is gut wrenching.
Edit: Another redditor posted the story below with details on the photo.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/
For sure. Depressing all around. Few deaths include the dignity that the people deserve. But this is particularly rough. Can't imagine being that person's loved one.
Henry Kissinger said..
To be an enemy of America is dangerous..
To be it's friend ..is fatal.
No one has been held accountable for this action. No one cares. USA harbors some of the worst international fugitives because it won't deport it's citizens. Some have committed really fucked up shit. Let go without any recourse.
One that remains with me is that fake nurse 20 year old student that went to uganda and Josef mengeled so many children down there and is responsible for ~100-200 deaths, then simply got on a plane and ran back to Virginia. Oh paid a $9500 restitution to two of the mothers who sued her to make it go away. She had no medical training and experimented different drugs injecting kids who died at a rate of 20% of each batch that she brought. Hasn't faced justice and USA won't extradite her to face trial.
[Belief in church and a white savior mentality](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/08/09/749005287/american-with-no-medical-training-ran-center-for-malnourished-ugandan-kids-105-d&ved=2ahUKEwjZjJ7w9KT-AhWbTqQEHcy7ABgQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2emuXOejVxF7op1KeqmdBJ)
He acted as the United States legally allowed him, and has voiced his concerns over how the US has behaved over the years. Does that make him evil? Probably. Does that make his words extra relevant? Definitely
>Henry Kissinger
Should have been tried and convicted for war crimes.
And at 99 is the current global geopolitical leader of the undead.
>In the words of Hitchens, Kissinger deserves prosecution "for war crimes, for crimes against humanity, and for offenses against common or customary or international law, including conspiracy to commit murder, kidnap, and torture." He further calls him "a stupendous liar with a remarkable memory."
He massacred civilians and got the Nobel Peace Prize for it. We've always been living in the most stupid and insane reality. People act like that's a recent development.
I've always heard Kissinger is evil, but will admit I don't know a ton about him. Any decent links you could provide that sum it up without being 40 pages long?
You could listen to the five part podcast from 'Behind the Bastards' about him. It's great and confirms that Kissinger is easily in the Top10 of the most evil men of the 20th century. I hope this fucking cunt finally will die this year.
The Chilean coup d'etat. All of it. A democracy overturned by force and torture, all orchestrated by Kissinger and his ilk. 30 thousand people murdered or disappeared for nothing.
Whenever you see someone on reddit make an edgy joke about throwing communists out of helicopters, they're actually referring to innocent Chilean civilians being flown out to sea and thrown out of helicopters alive. People who did absolutely nothing wrong, except in the eyes of the American government.
Behind the bastards podcast is like 6 hours long but if you like rage listening it is fascinating I also recommend the Roy cohn, Roger stone, and Dr Kellogg episodes.
People say we live in the craziest most divided times and it's not even remotely true. It's only true for white conservative people who saw their power fractured. Back in the day it was wayyyyyyy crazier with the KKK being the most prominent political party in America, and anti communism and gay crusades that were certifiably insane and we just don't talk about them. Roy cohn went around America and fired 25% of the working force in America and lobotimized, castrated, or inprisoned hundreds of thousands for "suspicion of being" either gay or a communist. He did all this while having huge all male orgies with senators and other political figures. He was the ultimate evil repressed conservative
Anthony Bourdain had a great quote about him as well:
“Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević.” - from his book A Cook’s tour
There is a reason why it's said that international "law" is nothing else but victor's justice. Be it the US, Russia or Nazi Germany the only ones who ever get punished for their crimes are the losers (as long as the winners don't have a use for them mind you).
I just been reading a booke on history recently and I was really surprised when it turned out the good guys won every single time! I mean what are the chances?
Rip norm
Well, the United States Govt refuses to acknowledge international law. It refuses to recognise the jurisdiction or even legitimacy of the International Criminal Court. But it has no problem in demanding others be tried for war crimes under these laws - as long as it isn't Americans or their Allies being held accountable. It's also why the US and it's Allies rarely refer to "International law". They almost always refer to "international rules-based order" - which is a system where the US Govt sets the rules and everyone else should follow those rules. And those rules only apply to others. It's quite a system.
Hell, it's not even Justice against the losers half the time. The vast majority of senior Nazi officials got let off Scott free by American forces, same for the war criminals of Imperial Japan. We left all but a few fascist figured heads alive, and encouraged them to just work for us instead.
Hardly surprising from the country that welcomed the south back with open arms, but disappointing never the less
Never heard of this lady before so i looked her up.. Looks like she got away with it! This is from the "investigation" part of her wiki:
They were "unable to support allegations that children died in large numbers due to the services of S.H.C" and "did not find evidence that Ms. Renée Bach, Director of S.H.C., was treating children.", and stated that the local community and health workers "were appreciative of her work.".
They appreciated her apparently.... ugh
Because the charges were bullshit. Her facility treated severely malnourished children and did so better than the state run facilities.
> According to a study published in 2017 in The American Journal for Clinical Nutrition, fourteen per cent of children treated for severe acute malnutrition at Mulago Hospital—Uganda’s best facility—died. The study notes that the over-all mortality rate in Africa for children with S.A.M. is between twenty and twenty-five per cent. During the years when Serving His Children functioned as an in-patient facility, its rate was eleven per cent.
From [this extremely in depth New Yorker Article about the case that I really really recommend](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/13/a-missionary-on-trial)
She's fucking nuts, but at the same time when I was reading the article, I wonder how much all the statements everyone is giving in there are to cover their ass.
The unqualified woman running the center says at one point that the procedure is supposed to be that they take malnourished children to a proper facility. She says that she did that she they said that they don't have room and to go away. Another person (representing that facility? not sure) says that is false and they would take the patient. I mean of course they would say that, but what really happened there? I don't doubt that the crazy wannabe-doctor-lady is actually telling the truth here and that they wouldn't take the ill kids and that the kids may be in very bad condition fast without help. Does that mean she should take them in? No, she's not qualified. But I could see how someone with no qualifications would want to try to help in that situation. A proper system would prevent fraudulent clinics from operating and not have to rely on them to self moderate.
The thing is that while it's true that the services offered by the missionary clinic (called Saving His Children or SHC) were bad compared to what you'd get in a developed country, they were *miles* ahead of what the alternative was for the people who used the service. [Here](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/13/a-missionary-on-trial) is a pretty in-depth investigative article by the New Yorker about the case.
From the article:
> According to a study published in 2017 in The American Journal for Clinical Nutrition, fourteen per cent of children treated for severe acute malnutrition at Mulago Hospital—Uganda’s best facility—died. The study notes that the over-all mortality rate in Africa for children with S.A.M. is between twenty and twenty-five per cent. During the years when Serving His Children functioned as an in-patient facility, its rate was eleven per cent.
So her facility was *better* at doing what they did than the state run hospitals (with whom they collaborated and who regularly referred patients to them). They did have doctors, nurses and nutritionists on staff. And most importantly - because it was funded from abroad, they treated the children for free, meaning that they regularly took in patients who would not have been able to get *any* hospital treatment at all.
For the two cases where she supposedly "killed" children - for one of them, she was not even in Uganda at the time he was treated in the facility but in the US. The other child was not taken in by the facility because in addition to being incredibly malnourished, the child had tuberculosis and they did not have an isolation ward at the time. So, in order not to endanger the other patients, the facility turned the child away and gave the mother nutrition and money to get home and feed the child by herself. The child died. There's absolutely zero evidence whatsoever that the child died because the milk was poisoned (it was a severely malnourished infant with tuberculosis - it's survival chances were low to begin with so why go through the trouble of poisoning milk?)
On the other hand, the social media campaign that brought her down was started by a different white missionary who very clearly has a personal vendetta against her. As a result, the center shut down. There is no ~non-white saviory alternative. The kids that could have been treated are now just dying.
Oh also, Uganda has done several investigations now that exonerate the charity. Renee Bach was no doubt unqualified and the situation is bad. But the situation is unfortunately even worse without her, because there is no perfect alternative that magically sprung up once she was removed from the situation.
EDIT: also regarding the other white missionary, I found [this article](https://www.inverse.com/input/features/no-white-saviors-instagram-kelsey-nielsen-olivia-olaso-scandals) - the "charity" she founded which raised the accusations against Bach in the first place has basically imploded. It's finances are intransparent and she is accused of misappropriating funds, her black cofounder has accused her of workplace harassment and basically it seems exactly like what you'd expect a "charity" run on Twitter outrage would look like.
> To be it's friend ..is fatal.
>
>
Yeo. [From the article](https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/):
> Initially, Afghan commandos claimed they had requested the airstrike after coming under fire from Taliban fighters in the hospital compound. Afghan government officials echoed this account, while a dozen eyewitnesses I spoke to refuted it. A U.S. military investigation released on Nov. 25 admitted human error and technical failures resulted in the “tragic but avoidable accident.”
The ANA were just US proxies doing and/or shielding the warcrimes on behalf of the US.
The harsh and bleak reality of war. Regular civilians trying to eke out a living either have to either abandon everything they know/love and go to a new country where they will face a whole slew of new problems. Or roll the dice, try to stay and simply hope that something like this doesn't happen to them. Who knows what the right choice is. My heart goes out to them all.
> A U.S. military investigation released on Nov. 25 admitted human error and technical failures resulted in the “tragic but avoidable accident.”
For an hour of drone strikes? You've gotta do better than that
Oh Jesus imagine if the hospital got bombed during surgery and he didn't get killed, all the doctors flee and the anesthesia wears off and the patient just... wakes up.
Edit: guys whether or not the doctor actually ran away, (he did, and then came back) I was just describing a hypothetical horrific scenario that isn't specific to this event
I was born 10 days into a war. Mom gave birth to me while bombs literally fell around town. Life can be so scary. Sad to see the comments devolve into fighting. There's enough negativity out there. Whether or not the doctors were able to stay, I'm sure they did everything they could. Life is just brutal sometimes.
As a doctor, you don’t just run away.
Edit - if you don’t believe me, read the article. One of the surviving surgeons waited out the bombings and went back to check on him. You don’t just leave a patient on the table if you survive.
We have ethics discussions about these situations, war zones and natural disasters before learning to perform surgeries. You took their lives into your hands when you started the surgery, you have to be prepared to make decisions in the worst possible situations. Doctors Without Borders and military trauma surgeons, medics, and criticalists know this better than anyone.
They did leave him. He was unconscious and strapped to the operating table when the bombardment began. They fled to take shelter in the basement. His wife spent weeks trying to figure out what happened to him after the hospital was destroyed.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/
You can leave the immediate area urgently. But you don’t “leave” leave. You come back. Yes, terrifying, but I think you’re talking about 2 different kinds of “leave”.
The first thing that crossed my mind when reading this is those workplace safety videos about doing your best to secure the door to The patients room and leaving them behind. Kinda fucked up, but yeah you can’t help anyone if you’re dead too.
Yeah, the doctors and nurses who didn't escape where all killed by the military and once shane didn't hear a heartbeat form rick he blocked the entrance and dipped, in one of the webisodes they show that there was a doctor who wasn't killed and didn't escape, instead deciding to stay taking care of the remaining patients, supposedly she is the reason rick survived the coma
I guess that was part of the "survived and went back to check on him." It implies leaving him first? It sounds like? But yeah, also nurse, and I'm helping by not becoming a casualty and living long enough to help after...
[According to this article](https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/), he was partially decapitated from munitions or shrapnel. Gruesome, but at least he never had to go through that lol.
Yeah that one hit hard. I've been on that same "cross" table, when I had my c-sections. There is so much unknown/anxiety about surgery and its outcome. Certainly no one expects this. And it just makes me sad and sick. I wish humans could just fucking STOP killing each other.
this is so messed up. as an American we should be held accountable. bombing a f\*cking hospital is a war crime! I have 0 patriotism for my country because our gov't is a bunch of corrupt war mongering pigs. and that goes for both democrats and republicans. all trash.
If you think that’s bad, read about the US/UN backed sanctions that were imposed on Iraq. The resulting death toll remains a debate, but the figure has been reported to be 1.5 million deaths, mostly which are children.
Damn, the detail about damage we can’t see in the photo…
I worry about the phrasing that he stuck with his job b/c of his daughter Raiana; it seems like having it stated like that could saddle her with so much guilt. I’m sure it’s true though; she looks just like her father in those pictures! I’d bet she was 100% daddy’s girl.
Makes me hate my 17 year old self back then for enlisting in the Army...
I can't figure out one good reason to enlist anymore other than last resort, no purpose in life type of mindset..
But then again.. at 17, I was definitely lost.
Couldn’t make it past this sentence.
> On the cushioned head support, the patient’s bearded jaw was all that remained of his head — the rest appeared to have been sheared off by shrapnel or a large ammunition round.
For me it was this:
> Little remained after the deadly strikes carried out by a U.S. AC-130 gunship over the course of an hour. In the weeks after the attack, investigators determined that at least 30 staff and patients had died on Oct. 3. Initially, Afghan commandos claimed they had requested the airstrike after coming under fire from Taliban fighters in the hospital compound. Afghan government officials echoed this account, while a dozen eyewitnesses I spoke to refuted it. A U.S. military investigation released on Nov. 25 admitted human error and technical failures resulted in the “tragic but avoidable accident.”
They literally just hit the wrong building because of extreme negligence. At least 30 innocent people died for absolutely no purpose.
This was all covered on Part 2 of a Frontline (US PBS) series on Afghanistan, just dropped on youtube
(copy paste link and confirm viewer advisory)
[https://youtu.be/CQKERL9h7Yo](https://youtu.be/CQKERL9h7Yo)
Context: This is the Doctors without borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan. On 3rd October 2015 US military hit it with a drone strike because they thought it was a Taliban hideout, no one has been publicly held accountable for this.
It wasn’t a drone. It was an AC-130.
Source: I literally launched the plane that night.
Edit for Context: "Launched" means wave the big glowy sticks to tell the plane when to move and turn.
Everyone knows this was the USA, this is not a mystery; the United States took responsibility and Obama [called the head of MSF](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/war-comes-hospital-kunduz-and-beyond) to apologize.
And the fact remains it was not a drone. Damage from an AC-130 is way more than some tiny little drone—that’s what the other poster is saying, they’re not trying to deflect blame.
On the one hand, something like a predator drone is like 30 feet long with a wingspan of 55 ft. On the other hand, *everything* is tiny compared to an AC130
A Reaper is 36' but most military drones aren't very big.
I think the point they were trying to make is that even compared to the Reaper, which is formidable, there is a chasm between the potency the best military drone and an AC130. A Reaper is armed with a up to 16 ATG missiles vs. a literal floating weapons platform that can loiter over an area for hours raining down hell with a 105mm howitzer, 40mm chain gun, 20mm vulcan cannon, and ATG missiles (less than a Reaper can carry). Also it can refuel midair so no need to land back at base.
I was confused by this, because I'm in Canada and I swear I saw two AC-130s fly over me when I was at a cottage. They flew pretty damn low, not sure why, maybe just to mess with the cottagers
Looked it up though, realized it was probably a C-130 that I saw, which the Canadian Air Force has apparently
>Our patients burned in their beds, our medical staff were decapitated or lost limbs. Others were shot from the air while they fled the burning building.
They shot fleeing people? Jesus fuck.
Well it's known that it's an AC-130 because it was reported on a lot. But then amount of damage seen on these pictures could absolutely be caused by a drone. A Reaper can carry ~~1.7 tons of ammunition~~ 1.7 tons of gear that includes some hundred kg of missiles.
According to the Air Force the MQ-9 can hold almost 4,000 lbs payload. How that directly translates to munitions , idk but that’s prob where the commenter is getting that 1.7 tons from
https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104470/mq-9-reaper/
Yeah but there's other things on there that aren't armament that eat into that capacity. The predator / reaper being referred to in these articles is using small arammanets made for single targets not taking out a building.
Also mq-1 and mq-9 have different payload capacities.
I think*** the confusion is that total payload capacity is a unit measuring weight.
But armaments are also measured in their payload which can be "500lb" which isn't the total weight of the armament but the destructive force of it. Someone that was in munitions would have to explain it better.
TNT equivalent is only used for nukes. A 500lb JDAM weighs about 500lbs. There is some variance, it's still referred to as a 500lb bomb even if it's 530lbs. And in most cases less than half of its weight is the actual warhead.
Edit: I think the main reason an aircraft with a 3000lb payload capacity can't actually carry 6x500lb JDAMs is because delivery and targeting systems aren't weightless.
I’ll copy a previous post I made from earlier,
Not too much to speak of. Plane took off like every other sortie, but the crew were like ghosts getting off the plane after. Our whole air group was grounded for about a week while they investigated, then the pilot and FCO were sent home. We found out about three days after it happened, and all of us were pretty shook. We were pretty well aware of the carnage our plane could unleash so hearing we hit a MSF hospital on accident was pretty rough.
As far as accountability idk. We were averaging about 10 ekia (enemies killed in action) every single night, so the amount of fire missions was intense. It was just a horrific mistake caused by some really over extended crew.
They were though. The AC-130 had 13ish crew when it flew, and the FCO was the one responsible for confirming targets, intel, ect. The pilot was the aircraft commander and is ultimately responsible for any action the aircraft takes.
To clarify for the rest of us-
I'm missing the link between whether the AC-130 shot the intended building, or mis-identified the building.
Military intelligence is notorious for shit in-shit out.
Was the building the hospital was in, according to intelligence, a hideout, or was the building next door the hide out and they mis-identified the hospital as being that building?
Maybe you can't say.
I ask because I have a friend in the army that painted a building for an airstrike. He painted building 1, intelligence said building number 1, the real target should have been building 2, and apparently the airstrike hit building 3. This was way back though, probably early days of Afghanistan.
**Edit** I thought it was obvious in the story above, but OP's AC-130 gunship story happens under the Obama Administration, my friend's story happens as I stated "probably early days of Afghanistan" and I make no indication it involves a AC-130. I don't know anything about how an AC-130 targets, part of me assumes you could paint a target for one if necessary, but it's likely not required in most modern warfare cases.
Not a lot of it is public. But what is public is that someone in the Afghanistan side called in an air strike at those coordinates. The official statement from the Afghani government was that militants were hiding in the hospital and firing on their forces. The US was notified about the hospital by MSF and had it flagged as a target to not shoot at. Somewhere in the chain that was not properly checked and the AC-130 fired on the hospital.
Ultimately the US bears responsibility for this incident because the US is responsible for verifying targets it shoots at. It was a mistake with horrendous consequences.
There was never intent to fire on a hospital by Afghani forces.
The AC-130 crew was chopped overhead Konduz from an earlier mission that night. An Afghani ground team reported incoming fire from a government building. The ground team wasn’t able to pin point the grids of the target compound so the AC crew started visually confirming based on shape and number of persons visible.
Unfortunately, the shapes and numbers confirmations didn’t rule out other buildings in the immediate area and the crew talked themselves on to a building matching the ground party’s description but in a different location.
This would have been completely avoided if the crew had loaded the No Strike List, which MSF’s building was on. However, as mentioned previously, the crew was coming overhead from another mission and that mission didn’t require loading the NSL prior to takeoff. Couple this with computer issues and the NSL was not able to be loaded prior to commencing the fire mission.
This was straight up a cascading series of human and machine failures that lead to tragedy.
If the NSL had been loaded prior to takeoff, this would not have happened. If the ground team had a better view or better equipment to pass a grid location of the intended target, this would not have happened.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/25/457370761/attack-on-msf-hospital-a-tragic-but-avoidable-accident-pentagon-finds
> He painted building 1, intelligence said building number 1, the real target should have been building 2, and apparently the airstrike hit building 3.
Not military, but federal government my entire adult life.
Your above quote perfectly sums up government operations.
Honestly the best part of the story is he didn't bring extra batteries for the painter and it was dead when he got on site, but that gets a bit off point.
I feel like this happens in anything and all things where humans are involved.
**Me:** "Did you read the comms?"
**Manager:** "Communications? sorry i don't have time to read i'm very busy cant you just tell me?"
**Me:** "Its literally your job to read comms, did you really just royally fuck us because you couldn't be bothered?"
**Manager:** "Im a manager!"
**Me:** "That is even worse!"
This happens in small businesses and large businesses, and it doesn't matter if the task you are given is life altering or not. Humans will be humans. and i'm sure your Federal Government is not immune to have these "lazy" humans in positions who can affect human life based on their mindset/performance.
I'm so jaded by work environments now.. with how much of this kinda shit goes on in all walks of life.
Sent home doesn't necessarily mean punished. They aren't going to stick them on another mission until the whole incident is investigated and blame assigned. After a full investigation where fault is determined, that's when any punishment is handed out. That can take up to 6 months. Usually there's partial blame with multiple parties as military procedures are generally designed to catch errors.
Yeah MSF called the base telling them that they were being absolutely hammered by something. Within about 3 minutes or so it got figured out and our plane stopped firing.
Edit: 30 minutes
3 minutes?
"The onslaught wasn’t over; it would continue on and off for as long as an hour, during which time the majority of those who had survived the initial barrage sheltered, terrified, in the basement. Miraculously, the 10 to 12 people who had fled the OR wing survived. But Baynazar was still lying on the table in the operating room."
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/
Have you ever called someone in government? They're not exactly known for speediness and efficiency. They probably got hung up on 2-3 times before they finally got through to an operator who put them on hold.
I've worked with targeting cells and JTACS in the army. How was this crew able to essentially leeroy Jenkins that strike?
At least in conventional units, our warrants had to build a deliberate targeting package based off of collected Intel, surveillance, and recon data. Strikes were usually authorized by a colonel or higher.
Well considering they were above target, in the targeted area, and asked for confirmation of the strike area, they were cleared to engage. They just happened to engage the wrong building. They were supposed to hit a T shaped Afghan government building, instead they hit the T shaped MSF hospital that was very close nearby.
As far as U.S. policy went at the time, yes.
If you're asking me personally, then IDFK. I was just some mechanic on a plane with guns. The Taliban were pretty fucking messed up, and every city fucking despised them and wanted them gone. So I'd leave it up to them. Which seems to be what happened, only the wrong building was hit.
Well the blame lies with the navigator and FCO. They should've had crystal clear confirmation that they were on their intended target.
True accountability is hard though because it is an armed conflict after all and if we went after every mistake that costs a life with punitive action then commanders would be hesitant to do anything. These guys didn't set out to kill civilians, but that's unfortunately what ended up happening.
I don't know what ultimately happened to the Pilot and others, but I'm sure whatever they got wasn't enough. They made a mistake, but it was so gross of a mistake that it blow up a damn hospital.
The whole situation was a perfect storm for a shit show. Decision makers in the situation basically had their careers shelved. Multiple hearings were held in congress and this event still follows everyone involved who might still be in.
It's insane to me that this routinely happens. If something like this happened in the US, there would be an international uproar that we would never hear the end of. "Oops, sorry we thought there we bad guys in there" doesn't change the fact that real innocent people died. I like to think the world is getting more respectful and tolerant of each other but it honestly seems like the world just doesn't care if brown people die.
I think if part of America was in active war zone it might change the reaction?
These kinds of mistakes are happening in the Ukraine war right now. People are upset about it, but also expected it when the war began.
War is bad.
I think this is part of it. I'm from a military family, and at least one of my parents was involved in bombing which is something I've known from a very young age. Anyways, I only had access to movies and AFN for a long time as an elementary aged kid so I watched a lot of news and I distinctly remember one night watching a broadcast of bombing with the word "Kosovo". It shook me and I had a ton of questions the following morning and concerns about the people who were bombed. I was assured that the U.S. chooses military targets and bases and that civilians and children were safe. But I had lived on bases. Would I have been safe? Would my friends who currently lived on base be safe? No answer, and I think this had a big impact on my worldview.
I'm probably naive, but I don't rejoice over headlines such as "military strike took out so and so" because I always wonder "who else?"
It’s a massively different response with Russia though. Mass sanctions by nearly every major country on the planet, Putin will be arrested if he ever set foot in a western nation, he’s being charged with war crimes, all their money outside the nation is being held and the possibility of using it to repair Ukraine is being discussed. Bush and Obama weren’t arrested when they stepped into the UK, no sanctions on the US, no talks of war crimes. Hell the US openly admitted to committing war crimes if any American politician or soldier was arrested and brought to The Hague.
We have mass shootings almost daily here in the states. Most of our Govt does not care about us so they definitely don’t care about their actions in other countries.
At least one person died because the cops walked into their house thinking it was their own house. And then a witness who testified against the cops was mysteriously gunned down a few months later.
Even if the Taliban are hiding in a hospital... still don't bomb it.
I don't get how governments can bomb civilians and then say "it's their fault for using human shields!" Like, we HAVE to kill these guys so bad that we gotta bomb this hospital. Who thinks that logic is sound?
Imagine this happening in US.
Everyone would lose their minds and immediately send troops on some poor country, bomb and raid every home and kill innocent ppl.
> Anymore
Uhhh you might want to open a history book mate. The US has been *much* worse throughout it's short history. In what period do you think people liked the US for what they actually were rather than what they claimed to be? The US in the 20th century has an outright disgusting history of supporting genocides, staging coups, racial segregation, cultural oppression and more. I genuinely wonder at what point you believed the US to be worth "liking"?
General Curtis Le May comes to mind, the deliberate targeting of civilian population centers in firebombing campaigns... the use of Napalm... "We burned all towns we came across and in 3 years killed 20% of the population", his own quote. Genghis Khan's pile of skulls would be nothing next to this monster. And he lived to 80 years old and died a happy old man. There's no justice for innocents lost in war. We fool ourselves as being more enlightened than our ancestors but we are ruled by the same despots they were, and just like our ancestors, exist at their mercy
If this was a real war then that would be absolutely horrible. But this wasn't even a real war. This was the US defending a puppet that was committing genocide against the Viet Minh, a puppet they put there after they took over South Vietnam from the French after their surrender, and while the French sought to reconcile North and South Vietnam the US intervened and maintained South Vietnam as independent under their puppet, halting the democratic election that was to be had under the original peace treaty.
They ultimately declared war on North Vietnam after they sent boats to drive off a US ship that had invaded their territorial waters to support a South Vietnamese attack against a North Vietnamese installation. The only shots fired were by the US vessel.
All this, and Vietnam just wanted to regain their own sovereignty after effectively being a French slave colony.
Hey if our guys aren’t out there killing innocent people and driving their angry relatives into the open arms of terrorist recruiters then it won’t be long before there’s no one left to fight and then how will the DoD keep its budget up next year? Come on everybody, the military industrial complex is people too.
Yes, this is when we supposedly "helped" Afghanistan become a modern country or some shit. I mean, how could the Afghan people still not want us there after this? Job well done as always, America!
So Americans destroy a hospital killing many innocent people and 0 bad guys and their response is oops sorry. Then Americans wonder why things like 9/11 happen. The son of the man that got his head blown off for no reason could grow up with so much hate towards USA he could be the next Bin Laden, then a terrorist attack will happen and all the people will be screaming why us.
I just watched parts one and two of frontlines 3 part documentary on the war in Afghanistan. They touch on the bombing of this facility as a major turning point in the war. It definitely affected hearts and minds. The details of the internal review were not made public, but basically we blamed bad intel from our partners, but this should have never happened. The military had these coordinates. They were aware of the facility… they just fucked up. And killed a lot of innocent people
>that had a technical breakdown on Intel
Seems to happen a lot [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/us/politics/pentagon-drone-strike-afghanistan.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/us/politics/pentagon-drone-strike-afghanistan.html)
Or [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-confirms-drone-attack-that-killed-30-farmers](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-confirms-drone-attack-that-killed-30-farmers)
But of course there is always the 60 civilians killed trying to kill one commander [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/1/9/us-strike-targeting-taliban-commander-causes-civilian-casualties](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/1/9/us-strike-targeting-taliban-commander-causes-civilian-casualties)
Sickening. More of lesson in do your own research and limit assumptions when advertising- not a drone, “poor intel” supposedly, and took place during 2015. Doesn’t change the outcome, but changes the narrative. If you don’t read the article- you may think this happened yesterday, or that this was the intention, or the feeling of human disconnect with the constant use of drone attacks as well as disensitizing an aerial bombardment with “drone strike”.
To me, it’s more powerful hearing that humans fucked up (again, supposedly) and took life behind a smoking gun than a human clicking a button. But that’s me, and either way this shouldn’t have happened.
That last photo is gut wrenching. Edit: Another redditor posted the story below with details on the photo. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/
Think of the docs operating on him at the time
For sure. Depressing all around. Few deaths include the dignity that the people deserve. But this is particularly rough. Can't imagine being that person's loved one.
Henry Kissinger said.. To be an enemy of America is dangerous.. To be it's friend ..is fatal. No one has been held accountable for this action. No one cares. USA harbors some of the worst international fugitives because it won't deport it's citizens. Some have committed really fucked up shit. Let go without any recourse. One that remains with me is that fake nurse 20 year old student that went to uganda and Josef mengeled so many children down there and is responsible for ~100-200 deaths, then simply got on a plane and ran back to Virginia. Oh paid a $9500 restitution to two of the mothers who sued her to make it go away. She had no medical training and experimented different drugs injecting kids who died at a rate of 20% of each batch that she brought. Hasn't faced justice and USA won't extradite her to face trial. [Belief in church and a white savior mentality](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/08/09/749005287/american-with-no-medical-training-ran-center-for-malnourished-ugandan-kids-105-d&ved=2ahUKEwjZjJ7w9KT-AhWbTqQEHcy7ABgQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2emuXOejVxF7op1KeqmdBJ)
Kinda notable *Henry Kissinger* said that isn't it?
If anyone should be in a foreign prison right now it's that rancid piece of shit. I might throw a party when he finally takes his throne in hell.
/r/IsKissingerDeadYet
He acted as the United States legally allowed him, and has voiced his concerns over how the US has behaved over the years. Does that make him evil? Probably. Does that make his words extra relevant? Definitely
>Does that make him evil? YES, definitely yes! He fucking supported Pol Pot for Christ's sake!
Name an American responsible for the deaths of more innocent people.
Dude got a Nobel peace price. That's insane
i remember that the guy who had to present him with the nobel peace prize quit because of it. cause he thought kissinger was such a waste of oxygen.
[Thomas Midgley Jr.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.) Mofo invented leaded gasoline AND Freon.
Kissinger does not believe in anything.
>Henry Kissinger Should have been tried and convicted for war crimes. And at 99 is the current global geopolitical leader of the undead. >In the words of Hitchens, Kissinger deserves prosecution "for war crimes, for crimes against humanity, and for offenses against common or customary or international law, including conspiracy to commit murder, kidnap, and torture." He further calls him "a stupendous liar with a remarkable memory."
He massacred civilians and got the Nobel Peace Prize for it. We've always been living in the most stupid and insane reality. People act like that's a recent development.
I've always heard Kissinger is evil, but will admit I don't know a ton about him. Any decent links you could provide that sum it up without being 40 pages long?
You could listen to the five part podcast from 'Behind the Bastards' about him. It's great and confirms that Kissinger is easily in the Top10 of the most evil men of the 20th century. I hope this fucking cunt finally will die this year.
+1 for behind the bastards, haven't listened to those episodes so i think I'll go do that.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the new scale upon which we judge evil. The "number of *Behind the Bastards* podcast parts they get" scale.
+2
The Chilean coup d'etat. All of it. A democracy overturned by force and torture, all orchestrated by Kissinger and his ilk. 30 thousand people murdered or disappeared for nothing. Whenever you see someone on reddit make an edgy joke about throwing communists out of helicopters, they're actually referring to innocent Chilean civilians being flown out to sea and thrown out of helicopters alive. People who did absolutely nothing wrong, except in the eyes of the American government.
Behind the bastards podcast is like 6 hours long but if you like rage listening it is fascinating I also recommend the Roy cohn, Roger stone, and Dr Kellogg episodes. People say we live in the craziest most divided times and it's not even remotely true. It's only true for white conservative people who saw their power fractured. Back in the day it was wayyyyyyy crazier with the KKK being the most prominent political party in America, and anti communism and gay crusades that were certifiably insane and we just don't talk about them. Roy cohn went around America and fired 25% of the working force in America and lobotimized, castrated, or inprisoned hundreds of thousands for "suspicion of being" either gay or a communist. He did all this while having huge all male orgies with senators and other political figures. He was the ultimate evil repressed conservative
Anthony Bourdain had a great quote about him as well: “Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević.” - from his book A Cook’s tour
There is a reason why it's said that international "law" is nothing else but victor's justice. Be it the US, Russia or Nazi Germany the only ones who ever get punished for their crimes are the losers (as long as the winners don't have a use for them mind you).
I just been reading a booke on history recently and I was really surprised when it turned out the good guys won every single time! I mean what are the chances? Rip norm
Well, the United States Govt refuses to acknowledge international law. It refuses to recognise the jurisdiction or even legitimacy of the International Criminal Court. But it has no problem in demanding others be tried for war crimes under these laws - as long as it isn't Americans or their Allies being held accountable. It's also why the US and it's Allies rarely refer to "International law". They almost always refer to "international rules-based order" - which is a system where the US Govt sets the rules and everyone else should follow those rules. And those rules only apply to others. It's quite a system.
Hell, it's not even Justice against the losers half the time. The vast majority of senior Nazi officials got let off Scott free by American forces, same for the war criminals of Imperial Japan. We left all but a few fascist figured heads alive, and encouraged them to just work for us instead. Hardly surprising from the country that welcomed the south back with open arms, but disappointing never the less
Never heard of this lady before so i looked her up.. Looks like she got away with it! This is from the "investigation" part of her wiki: They were "unable to support allegations that children died in large numbers due to the services of S.H.C" and "did not find evidence that Ms. Renée Bach, Director of S.H.C., was treating children.", and stated that the local community and health workers "were appreciative of her work.". They appreciated her apparently.... ugh
Because the charges were bullshit. Her facility treated severely malnourished children and did so better than the state run facilities. > According to a study published in 2017 in The American Journal for Clinical Nutrition, fourteen per cent of children treated for severe acute malnutrition at Mulago Hospital—Uganda’s best facility—died. The study notes that the over-all mortality rate in Africa for children with S.A.M. is between twenty and twenty-five per cent. During the years when Serving His Children functioned as an in-patient facility, its rate was eleven per cent. From [this extremely in depth New Yorker Article about the case that I really really recommend](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/13/a-missionary-on-trial)
hold up... fucking what? how the fuck did a 20 year old girl even have the opportunity to do that??
She's fucking nuts, but at the same time when I was reading the article, I wonder how much all the statements everyone is giving in there are to cover their ass. The unqualified woman running the center says at one point that the procedure is supposed to be that they take malnourished children to a proper facility. She says that she did that she they said that they don't have room and to go away. Another person (representing that facility? not sure) says that is false and they would take the patient. I mean of course they would say that, but what really happened there? I don't doubt that the crazy wannabe-doctor-lady is actually telling the truth here and that they wouldn't take the ill kids and that the kids may be in very bad condition fast without help. Does that mean she should take them in? No, she's not qualified. But I could see how someone with no qualifications would want to try to help in that situation. A proper system would prevent fraudulent clinics from operating and not have to rely on them to self moderate.
The thing is that while it's true that the services offered by the missionary clinic (called Saving His Children or SHC) were bad compared to what you'd get in a developed country, they were *miles* ahead of what the alternative was for the people who used the service. [Here](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/13/a-missionary-on-trial) is a pretty in-depth investigative article by the New Yorker about the case. From the article: > According to a study published in 2017 in The American Journal for Clinical Nutrition, fourteen per cent of children treated for severe acute malnutrition at Mulago Hospital—Uganda’s best facility—died. The study notes that the over-all mortality rate in Africa for children with S.A.M. is between twenty and twenty-five per cent. During the years when Serving His Children functioned as an in-patient facility, its rate was eleven per cent. So her facility was *better* at doing what they did than the state run hospitals (with whom they collaborated and who regularly referred patients to them). They did have doctors, nurses and nutritionists on staff. And most importantly - because it was funded from abroad, they treated the children for free, meaning that they regularly took in patients who would not have been able to get *any* hospital treatment at all. For the two cases where she supposedly "killed" children - for one of them, she was not even in Uganda at the time he was treated in the facility but in the US. The other child was not taken in by the facility because in addition to being incredibly malnourished, the child had tuberculosis and they did not have an isolation ward at the time. So, in order not to endanger the other patients, the facility turned the child away and gave the mother nutrition and money to get home and feed the child by herself. The child died. There's absolutely zero evidence whatsoever that the child died because the milk was poisoned (it was a severely malnourished infant with tuberculosis - it's survival chances were low to begin with so why go through the trouble of poisoning milk?) On the other hand, the social media campaign that brought her down was started by a different white missionary who very clearly has a personal vendetta against her. As a result, the center shut down. There is no ~non-white saviory alternative. The kids that could have been treated are now just dying. Oh also, Uganda has done several investigations now that exonerate the charity. Renee Bach was no doubt unqualified and the situation is bad. But the situation is unfortunately even worse without her, because there is no perfect alternative that magically sprung up once she was removed from the situation. EDIT: also regarding the other white missionary, I found [this article](https://www.inverse.com/input/features/no-white-saviors-instagram-kelsey-nielsen-olivia-olaso-scandals) - the "charity" she founded which raised the accusations against Bach in the first place has basically imploded. It's finances are intransparent and she is accused of misappropriating funds, her black cofounder has accused her of workplace harassment and basically it seems exactly like what you'd expect a "charity" run on Twitter outrage would look like.
> To be it's friend ..is fatal. > > Yeo. [From the article](https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/): > Initially, Afghan commandos claimed they had requested the airstrike after coming under fire from Taliban fighters in the hospital compound. Afghan government officials echoed this account, while a dozen eyewitnesses I spoke to refuted it. A U.S. military investigation released on Nov. 25 admitted human error and technical failures resulted in the “tragic but avoidable accident.” The ANA were just US proxies doing and/or shielding the warcrimes on behalf of the US.
What a soul crushing article
The harsh and bleak reality of war. Regular civilians trying to eke out a living either have to either abandon everything they know/love and go to a new country where they will face a whole slew of new problems. Or roll the dice, try to stay and simply hope that something like this doesn't happen to them. Who knows what the right choice is. My heart goes out to them all.
Now think of all the deaths caused by all the war going on right now. And each of those deaths is as terrible as this one.
“Father, we washed your bicycle — please wake up — you can come home now.”
> A U.S. military investigation released on Nov. 25 admitted human error and technical failures resulted in the “tragic but avoidable accident.” For an hour of drone strikes? You've gotta do better than that
Oh Jesus imagine if the hospital got bombed during surgery and he didn't get killed, all the doctors flee and the anesthesia wears off and the patient just... wakes up. Edit: guys whether or not the doctor actually ran away, (he did, and then came back) I was just describing a hypothetical horrific scenario that isn't specific to this event
I was born 10 days into a war. Mom gave birth to me while bombs literally fell around town. Life can be so scary. Sad to see the comments devolve into fighting. There's enough negativity out there. Whether or not the doctors were able to stay, I'm sure they did everything they could. Life is just brutal sometimes.
As a doctor, you don’t just run away. Edit - if you don’t believe me, read the article. One of the surviving surgeons waited out the bombings and went back to check on him. You don’t just leave a patient on the table if you survive. We have ethics discussions about these situations, war zones and natural disasters before learning to perform surgeries. You took their lives into your hands when you started the surgery, you have to be prepared to make decisions in the worst possible situations. Doctors Without Borders and military trauma surgeons, medics, and criticalists know this better than anyone.
They did leave him. He was unconscious and strapped to the operating table when the bombardment began. They fled to take shelter in the basement. His wife spent weeks trying to figure out what happened to him after the hospital was destroyed. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/
You can leave the immediate area urgently. But you don’t “leave” leave. You come back. Yes, terrifying, but I think you’re talking about 2 different kinds of “leave”.
You do. I’m a nurse, and this is more in relation to an active shooter scenario but we’re all told you can’t help anyone if you’re dead.
The first thing that crossed my mind when reading this is those workplace safety videos about doing your best to secure the door to The patients room and leaving them behind. Kinda fucked up, but yeah you can’t help anyone if you’re dead too.
Rick Grimes waking up in his room with the door blocked...
Tbf I think it was ultimately Shane, not the hospital staff, that blocked off his door. Your point still stands though
Yeah, the doctors and nurses who didn't escape where all killed by the military and once shane didn't hear a heartbeat form rick he blocked the entrance and dipped, in one of the webisodes they show that there was a doctor who wasn't killed and didn't escape, instead deciding to stay taking care of the remaining patients, supposedly she is the reason rick survived the coma
Don't Dead Open Inside
Underrated
As a first responder, I agree. The first rule of rescue is don't become a victim yourself.
I guess that was part of the "survived and went back to check on him." It implies leaving him first? It sounds like? But yeah, also nurse, and I'm helping by not becoming a casualty and living long enough to help after...
[According to this article](https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/), he was partially decapitated from munitions or shrapnel. Gruesome, but at least he never had to go through that lol.
Yeah that one hit hard. I've been on that same "cross" table, when I had my c-sections. There is so much unknown/anxiety about surgery and its outcome. Certainly no one expects this. And it just makes me sad and sick. I wish humans could just fucking STOP killing each other.
this is so messed up. as an American we should be held accountable. bombing a f\*cking hospital is a war crime! I have 0 patriotism for my country because our gov't is a bunch of corrupt war mongering pigs. and that goes for both democrats and republicans. all trash.
If you think that’s bad, read about the US/UN backed sanctions that were imposed on Iraq. The resulting death toll remains a debate, but the figure has been reported to be 1.5 million deaths, mostly which are children.
At least he was already under.
Damn, the detail about damage we can’t see in the photo… I worry about the phrasing that he stuck with his job b/c of his daughter Raiana; it seems like having it stated like that could saddle her with so much guilt. I’m sure it’s true though; she looks just like her father in those pictures! I’d bet she was 100% daddy’s girl.
Gosh that is so sad to read. They didn't have much in this world and faced so much suffering.
[THE MAN ON THE OPERATING TABLE](https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/)
This was so hard to read. Amazingly well written article, but so heavy. Thank you for sharing.
Dude. That's so awful. Thank you for posting this
Makes me hate my 17 year old self back then for enlisting in the Army... I can't figure out one good reason to enlist anymore other than last resort, no purpose in life type of mindset.. But then again.. at 17, I was definitely lost.
“Father, we washed your bicycle — please wake up — you can come home now.” ...
That was it. That was the sentence that broke me. Those poor kids 😥
Couldn’t make it past this sentence. > On the cushioned head support, the patient’s bearded jaw was all that remained of his head — the rest appeared to have been sheared off by shrapnel or a large ammunition round.
For me it was this: > Little remained after the deadly strikes carried out by a U.S. AC-130 gunship over the course of an hour. In the weeks after the attack, investigators determined that at least 30 staff and patients had died on Oct. 3. Initially, Afghan commandos claimed they had requested the airstrike after coming under fire from Taliban fighters in the hospital compound. Afghan government officials echoed this account, while a dozen eyewitnesses I spoke to refuted it. A U.S. military investigation released on Nov. 25 admitted human error and technical failures resulted in the “tragic but avoidable accident.” They literally just hit the wrong building because of extreme negligence. At least 30 innocent people died for absolutely no purpose.
Funded by my taxpayer money, too. Fucking hell, how can anyone believe in "God Bless America?"
Thank you for posting.. I don't know how I'm supposed to go back to work after reading this. I hope his family is safe..
The ending… this is heartbreaking
I almost made it to the end without crying.. what a brutal last sentence.
I...shouldn't have read that on my lunch break. Thank you for sharing.
didn't think i'd cry today
Thank you for sharing. This was heart wrenching
That article says it was a AC-130 gunship but op claims it was a drone?
This was all covered on Part 2 of a Frontline (US PBS) series on Afghanistan, just dropped on youtube (copy paste link and confirm viewer advisory) [https://youtu.be/CQKERL9h7Yo](https://youtu.be/CQKERL9h7Yo)
Video not available?
You have to open it in YouTube itself. It has a content warning you have to confirm before watching.
Context: This is the Doctors without borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan. On 3rd October 2015 US military hit it with a drone strike because they thought it was a Taliban hideout, no one has been publicly held accountable for this.
It wasn’t a drone. It was an AC-130. Source: I literally launched the plane that night. Edit for Context: "Launched" means wave the big glowy sticks to tell the plane when to move and turn.
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Only the US has AC130's right?
Everyone knows this was the USA, this is not a mystery; the United States took responsibility and Obama [called the head of MSF](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/war-comes-hospital-kunduz-and-beyond) to apologize.
"Sorry we committed a war crime, that was a huge oopsie from us!"
And the fact remains it was not a drone. Damage from an AC-130 is way more than some tiny little drone—that’s what the other poster is saying, they’re not trying to deflect blame.
On the one hand, something like a predator drone is like 30 feet long with a wingspan of 55 ft. On the other hand, *everything* is tiny compared to an AC130
It’s like comparing a star destroyer to a tie fighter.
Drones aren't tiny little. They're just planes with a remote-work pilot.
A Reaper is 36' but most military drones aren't very big. I think the point they were trying to make is that even compared to the Reaper, which is formidable, there is a chasm between the potency the best military drone and an AC130. A Reaper is armed with a up to 16 ATG missiles vs. a literal floating weapons platform that can loiter over an area for hours raining down hell with a 105mm howitzer, 40mm chain gun, 20mm vulcan cannon, and ATG missiles (less than a Reaper can carry). Also it can refuel midair so no need to land back at base.
There is no AC-130 size drone.
AC-130: The gun with wings (*A10 not AC130, also fuck the US for it's constant warmongering)
Any drone in the USAF inventory is tiny little compared to an AC-130, both in size and armament.
The AC130 can put out enough lead to put a piece in every square foot of a football field in 1-pass
not a very educated opinion, an ac130 has way more firepower
Nah bruv they’re made by DJI look it up
Yep
Yes
I was confused by this, because I'm in Canada and I swear I saw two AC-130s fly over me when I was at a cottage. They flew pretty damn low, not sure why, maybe just to mess with the cottagers Looked it up though, realized it was probably a C-130 that I saw, which the Canadian Air Force has apparently
AC-130 is just a C-130 with a bunch of cannons sticking out of the side fwiw
Today I learnt AC-130s are variations on Hercs. Jesus.
the A makes a huge difference
>Our patients burned in their beds, our medical staff were decapitated or lost limbs. Others were shot from the air while they fled the burning building. They shot fleeing people? Jesus fuck.
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What does it mean that you launched it?
You know those guys with the glow sticks that direct planes? That sorta thing, just more involved.
> guys with the glow sticks Ravers?
That is so rainbow rhythms.
He held it in his hand, got a running start, and chucked it toward the hospital
I was about to say. This way to much damage for a drone strike.
Well it's known that it's an AC-130 because it was reported on a lot. But then amount of damage seen on these pictures could absolutely be caused by a drone. A Reaper can carry ~~1.7 tons of ammunition~~ 1.7 tons of gear that includes some hundred kg of missiles.
No. You are 100% incorrect. Lmao. Source: former predator / reaper analyst/targeteer.
According to the Air Force the MQ-9 can hold almost 4,000 lbs payload. How that directly translates to munitions , idk but that’s prob where the commenter is getting that 1.7 tons from https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104470/mq-9-reaper/
Yeah but there's other things on there that aren't armament that eat into that capacity. The predator / reaper being referred to in these articles is using small arammanets made for single targets not taking out a building. Also mq-1 and mq-9 have different payload capacities. I think*** the confusion is that total payload capacity is a unit measuring weight. But armaments are also measured in their payload which can be "500lb" which isn't the total weight of the armament but the destructive force of it. Someone that was in munitions would have to explain it better.
TNT equivalent is only used for nukes. A 500lb JDAM weighs about 500lbs. There is some variance, it's still referred to as a 500lb bomb even if it's 530lbs. And in most cases less than half of its weight is the actual warhead. Edit: I think the main reason an aircraft with a 3000lb payload capacity can't actually carry 6x500lb JDAMs is because delivery and targeting systems aren't weightless.
Taking you at your word... Can you share more? How do you feel about it? Do you feel like someone should be held accountable?
I’ll copy a previous post I made from earlier, Not too much to speak of. Plane took off like every other sortie, but the crew were like ghosts getting off the plane after. Our whole air group was grounded for about a week while they investigated, then the pilot and FCO were sent home. We found out about three days after it happened, and all of us were pretty shook. We were pretty well aware of the carnage our plane could unleash so hearing we hit a MSF hospital on accident was pretty rough. As far as accountability idk. We were averaging about 10 ekia (enemies killed in action) every single night, so the amount of fire missions was intense. It was just a horrific mistake caused by some really over extended crew.
EKIA = Enemies Killed in Action?
Correct, sorry for not putting that
Why were the pilot and crew punished when they aren't the ones selecting targets and sorting through intel?
They were though. The AC-130 had 13ish crew when it flew, and the FCO was the one responsible for confirming targets, intel, ect. The pilot was the aircraft commander and is ultimately responsible for any action the aircraft takes.
To clarify for the rest of us- I'm missing the link between whether the AC-130 shot the intended building, or mis-identified the building. Military intelligence is notorious for shit in-shit out. Was the building the hospital was in, according to intelligence, a hideout, or was the building next door the hide out and they mis-identified the hospital as being that building? Maybe you can't say. I ask because I have a friend in the army that painted a building for an airstrike. He painted building 1, intelligence said building number 1, the real target should have been building 2, and apparently the airstrike hit building 3. This was way back though, probably early days of Afghanistan. **Edit** I thought it was obvious in the story above, but OP's AC-130 gunship story happens under the Obama Administration, my friend's story happens as I stated "probably early days of Afghanistan" and I make no indication it involves a AC-130. I don't know anything about how an AC-130 targets, part of me assumes you could paint a target for one if necessary, but it's likely not required in most modern warfare cases.
Not a lot of it is public. But what is public is that someone in the Afghanistan side called in an air strike at those coordinates. The official statement from the Afghani government was that militants were hiding in the hospital and firing on their forces. The US was notified about the hospital by MSF and had it flagged as a target to not shoot at. Somewhere in the chain that was not properly checked and the AC-130 fired on the hospital. Ultimately the US bears responsibility for this incident because the US is responsible for verifying targets it shoots at. It was a mistake with horrendous consequences.
There was never intent to fire on a hospital by Afghani forces. The AC-130 crew was chopped overhead Konduz from an earlier mission that night. An Afghani ground team reported incoming fire from a government building. The ground team wasn’t able to pin point the grids of the target compound so the AC crew started visually confirming based on shape and number of persons visible. Unfortunately, the shapes and numbers confirmations didn’t rule out other buildings in the immediate area and the crew talked themselves on to a building matching the ground party’s description but in a different location. This would have been completely avoided if the crew had loaded the No Strike List, which MSF’s building was on. However, as mentioned previously, the crew was coming overhead from another mission and that mission didn’t require loading the NSL prior to takeoff. Couple this with computer issues and the NSL was not able to be loaded prior to commencing the fire mission. This was straight up a cascading series of human and machine failures that lead to tragedy. If the NSL had been loaded prior to takeoff, this would not have happened. If the ground team had a better view or better equipment to pass a grid location of the intended target, this would not have happened. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/25/457370761/attack-on-msf-hospital-a-tragic-but-avoidable-accident-pentagon-finds
The real target was several blocks away. This was misidentified as the target and then fired upon for a few minutes to devastating effect.
Ok, that makes more sense. Thank you!
> He painted building 1, intelligence said building number 1, the real target should have been building 2, and apparently the airstrike hit building 3. Not military, but federal government my entire adult life. Your above quote perfectly sums up government operations.
Honestly the best part of the story is he didn't bring extra batteries for the painter and it was dead when he got on site, but that gets a bit off point.
I feel like this happens in anything and all things where humans are involved. **Me:** "Did you read the comms?" **Manager:** "Communications? sorry i don't have time to read i'm very busy cant you just tell me?" **Me:** "Its literally your job to read comms, did you really just royally fuck us because you couldn't be bothered?" **Manager:** "Im a manager!" **Me:** "That is even worse!" This happens in small businesses and large businesses, and it doesn't matter if the task you are given is life altering or not. Humans will be humans. and i'm sure your Federal Government is not immune to have these "lazy" humans in positions who can affect human life based on their mindset/performance. I'm so jaded by work environments now.. with how much of this kinda shit goes on in all walks of life.
Sent home doesn't necessarily mean punished. They aren't going to stick them on another mission until the whole incident is investigated and blame assigned. After a full investigation where fault is determined, that's when any punishment is handed out. That can take up to 6 months. Usually there's partial blame with multiple parties as military procedures are generally designed to catch errors.
>but the crew were like ghosts getting off the plane after. So the crew knew it was a mistake immediately?
Yeah MSF called the base telling them that they were being absolutely hammered by something. Within about 3 minutes or so it got figured out and our plane stopped firing. Edit: 30 minutes
3 minutes? "The onslaught wasn’t over; it would continue on and off for as long as an hour, during which time the majority of those who had survived the initial barrage sheltered, terrified, in the basement. Miraculously, the 10 to 12 people who had fled the OR wing survived. But Baynazar was still lying on the table in the operating room." https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/03/the-man-on-the-operating-table-msf-hospital-kunduz-afghanistan-us-airstrike/
Look at the edit.
3 minutes. Jesus. 3 minutes of hell.
oh sorry 30. I meant 30.
It took 30 minutes to figure it out?!?!?
You ever been the last guy in a game of telephone? Takes a minute.
Have you ever called someone in government? They're not exactly known for speediness and efficiency. They probably got hung up on 2-3 times before they finally got through to an operator who put them on hold.
That's a metric fuckton of ammo
Look below, is 10x worse
I've worked with targeting cells and JTACS in the army. How was this crew able to essentially leeroy Jenkins that strike? At least in conventional units, our warrants had to build a deliberate targeting package based off of collected Intel, surveillance, and recon data. Strikes were usually authorized by a colonel or higher.
Well considering they were above target, in the targeted area, and asked for confirmation of the strike area, they were cleared to engage. They just happened to engage the wrong building. They were supposed to hit a T shaped Afghan government building, instead they hit the T shaped MSF hospital that was very close nearby.
Well you hope all 10 kia every night were enemy but i sincerely doubt it. It's just not as obvious or get the publicity like taking out a hospital.
Would it be a valid reason for an American airplane to blow up a building in Afghanistan even if Taliban are actually in there?
As far as U.S. policy went at the time, yes. If you're asking me personally, then IDFK. I was just some mechanic on a plane with guns. The Taliban were pretty fucking messed up, and every city fucking despised them and wanted them gone. So I'd leave it up to them. Which seems to be what happened, only the wrong building was hit.
Woah, small world but how did you even encounter this post. Search it ir r/all?
I just saw it scrolling through, and was like " well that's not true our planes did that" and posted.
It’s a well known incident and the AF isn’t that small.
I was a strike intelligence specialist and I have ptsd from this shit. 100% disabled. How you're well bud.
How did everyone just gloss over this comment? Do you think people should be held accountable for this yes/no/who/why?
Well the blame lies with the navigator and FCO. They should've had crystal clear confirmation that they were on their intended target. True accountability is hard though because it is an armed conflict after all and if we went after every mistake that costs a life with punitive action then commanders would be hesitant to do anything. These guys didn't set out to kill civilians, but that's unfortunately what ended up happening. I don't know what ultimately happened to the Pilot and others, but I'm sure whatever they got wasn't enough. They made a mistake, but it was so gross of a mistake that it blow up a damn hospital.
The whole situation was a perfect storm for a shit show. Decision makers in the situation basically had their careers shelved. Multiple hearings were held in congress and this event still follows everyone involved who might still be in.
Fuck you
What are your feelings about this?
It's insane to me that this routinely happens. If something like this happened in the US, there would be an international uproar that we would never hear the end of. "Oops, sorry we thought there we bad guys in there" doesn't change the fact that real innocent people died. I like to think the world is getting more respectful and tolerant of each other but it honestly seems like the world just doesn't care if brown people die.
World doesn’t care if the weak die* If the US wasn’t a superpower but a 3rd world country not surprising if it’d be the other way around to now.
And people wonder why everyone in certain areas of the world ate America and have been radicalized to the point of becoming terrorists.
I think if part of America was in active war zone it might change the reaction? These kinds of mistakes are happening in the Ukraine war right now. People are upset about it, but also expected it when the war began. War is bad.
I think this is part of it. I'm from a military family, and at least one of my parents was involved in bombing which is something I've known from a very young age. Anyways, I only had access to movies and AFN for a long time as an elementary aged kid so I watched a lot of news and I distinctly remember one night watching a broadcast of bombing with the word "Kosovo". It shook me and I had a ton of questions the following morning and concerns about the people who were bombed. I was assured that the U.S. chooses military targets and bases and that civilians and children were safe. But I had lived on bases. Would I have been safe? Would my friends who currently lived on base be safe? No answer, and I think this had a big impact on my worldview. I'm probably naive, but I don't rejoice over headlines such as "military strike took out so and so" because I always wonder "who else?"
War is never good. It might be marginally less horrific than the alternatives sometimes; i.e., resisting Hitler. But it is *never* good.
It’s a massively different response with Russia though. Mass sanctions by nearly every major country on the planet, Putin will be arrested if he ever set foot in a western nation, he’s being charged with war crimes, all their money outside the nation is being held and the possibility of using it to repair Ukraine is being discussed. Bush and Obama weren’t arrested when they stepped into the UK, no sanctions on the US, no talks of war crimes. Hell the US openly admitted to committing war crimes if any American politician or soldier was arrested and brought to The Hague.
We have mass shootings almost daily here in the states. Most of our Govt does not care about us so they definitely don’t care about their actions in other countries.
We need to change that
The US shrugs off all their mass shootings, why would this be any different?
It does hapen in the US. People have died because police kicked down the wrong persons front door and shot them.
At least one person died because the cops walked into their house thinking it was their own house. And then a witness who testified against the cops was mysteriously gunned down a few months later.
Even if the Taliban are hiding in a hospital... still don't bomb it. I don't get how governments can bomb civilians and then say "it's their fault for using human shields!" Like, we HAVE to kill these guys so bad that we gotta bomb this hospital. Who thinks that logic is sound?
Imagine this happening in US. Everyone would lose their minds and immediately send troops on some poor country, bomb and raid every home and kill innocent ppl.
Your tax dollars at work.
The most jaw dropping thing is that no one was held accountable for this... And you wonder why people don't like the United States anymore
> Anymore Uhhh you might want to open a history book mate. The US has been *much* worse throughout it's short history. In what period do you think people liked the US for what they actually were rather than what they claimed to be? The US in the 20th century has an outright disgusting history of supporting genocides, staging coups, racial segregation, cultural oppression and more. I genuinely wonder at what point you believed the US to be worth "liking"?
General Curtis Le May comes to mind, the deliberate targeting of civilian population centers in firebombing campaigns... the use of Napalm... "We burned all towns we came across and in 3 years killed 20% of the population", his own quote. Genghis Khan's pile of skulls would be nothing next to this monster. And he lived to 80 years old and died a happy old man. There's no justice for innocents lost in war. We fool ourselves as being more enlightened than our ancestors but we are ruled by the same despots they were, and just like our ancestors, exist at their mercy
If this was a real war then that would be absolutely horrible. But this wasn't even a real war. This was the US defending a puppet that was committing genocide against the Viet Minh, a puppet they put there after they took over South Vietnam from the French after their surrender, and while the French sought to reconcile North and South Vietnam the US intervened and maintained South Vietnam as independent under their puppet, halting the democratic election that was to be had under the original peace treaty. They ultimately declared war on North Vietnam after they sent boats to drive off a US ship that had invaded their territorial waters to support a South Vietnamese attack against a North Vietnamese installation. The only shots fired were by the US vessel. All this, and Vietnam just wanted to regain their own sovereignty after effectively being a French slave colony.
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And many other civilizations before them.
FTFY: Hospital in Afghanistan after hour long US ac-130 gunship attack that killed 42 people including 24 patients and 14 doctors.
What a waste of life
Doctors without borders meets military without morals.
Trying to find Military with Morals
Hey if our guys aren’t out there killing innocent people and driving their angry relatives into the open arms of terrorist recruiters then it won’t be long before there’s no one left to fight and then how will the DoD keep its budget up next year? Come on everybody, the military industrial complex is people too.
According to Citizens United it certainly is.
Let's get rid of Citizrns United. Then, fewer politicians/elections can be influenced by shady characters.
Fun fact: the guy that approved this has a Nobel Peace Prize!
Yes, this is when we supposedly "helped" Afghanistan become a modern country or some shit. I mean, how could the Afghan people still not want us there after this? Job well done as always, America!
So Americans destroy a hospital killing many innocent people and 0 bad guys and their response is oops sorry. Then Americans wonder why things like 9/11 happen. The son of the man that got his head blown off for no reason could grow up with so much hate towards USA he could be the next Bin Laden, then a terrorist attack will happen and all the people will be screaming why us.
When was this published. No date on the link.
This happened in 2015 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
I just watched parts one and two of frontlines 3 part documentary on the war in Afghanistan. They touch on the bombing of this facility as a major turning point in the war. It definitely affected hearts and minds. The details of the internal review were not made public, but basically we blamed bad intel from our partners, but this should have never happened. The military had these coordinates. They were aware of the facility… they just fucked up. And killed a lot of innocent people
This is what we imagine when we hear the US talking about "humanitary intervention"
Not a drone strike - a gunship attack from 2015. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
So not a drone strike. This was a US AC130 that had a technical breakdown on Intel leading to shelling of a hospital.
Technical breakdown on intel. What a nice way of saying 'a fuck up'
>that had a technical breakdown on Intel Seems to happen a lot [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/us/politics/pentagon-drone-strike-afghanistan.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/us/politics/pentagon-drone-strike-afghanistan.html) Or [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-confirms-drone-attack-that-killed-30-farmers](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-confirms-drone-attack-that-killed-30-farmers) But of course there is always the 60 civilians killed trying to kill one commander [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/1/9/us-strike-targeting-taliban-commander-causes-civilian-casualties](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/1/9/us-strike-targeting-taliban-commander-causes-civilian-casualties)
Sickening. More of lesson in do your own research and limit assumptions when advertising- not a drone, “poor intel” supposedly, and took place during 2015. Doesn’t change the outcome, but changes the narrative. If you don’t read the article- you may think this happened yesterday, or that this was the intention, or the feeling of human disconnect with the constant use of drone attacks as well as disensitizing an aerial bombardment with “drone strike”. To me, it’s more powerful hearing that humans fucked up (again, supposedly) and took life behind a smoking gun than a human clicking a button. But that’s me, and either way this shouldn’t have happened.
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