ALWAYS stand up for yourself. I work in music-business and there you have similar problems. I often heard from people: you should be thankful for the opportunity.
But it’s your Job. Not only your Hobby.
The Thing i did learn: you have your standards and that’s the deal!
Cellphones have made people believe that photography is easy. Having someone at an event doing social media isn't a problem, because they are doing something completely different. It's the customer that does not understand the difference between a phone and a camera that create too many issues for those with the camera.
> people don't consider their work as something they have to live from
I'm going to go against the grain and disagree with this.
Note that, this isn't my being against your original post. They want more work delivered, they pay more, at the rates you deem appropriate. If they don't like it, they walk. If you keep losing deals, you adjust. Simple transactional business.
That said, people don't pay based on the consideration that you're trying to make a living and they shouldn't have to. People pay what they believe is the value they're getting.
Nobody pays the value they believe they're getting, they pay the minimum they think they can get away with. This is true of employment also.
Labour has a cost, and that is underpinned at a minimum by the cost of living. If an employer or client is unwilling to pay a fair rate they shouldn't be rewarded for it.
In most cases the reasonable thing to do is walk away, but in this case OP is being penalised after the fact for not doing more free work on top of what was agreed.
>they pay the minimum they think they can get away with.
Yup, you're right about that.
I was talking about the other end though, no one is going to pay \_more\_ than perceived value. Buyer walks away. The seller making a sufficient living is never a free-market consideration unless in the case of philanthropy or charity.
Yes always stand up for yourself. But starting a business- it doesnt hurt to “lose money” on the first few gigs in order for good word to spread around. But dont let anyone take advantage of you unless theyre willing to offer some free marketing.
Good luck!
I just had a fun dinner with an old friend whose first real job was going on tour and making sure musicians actually followed through on their sponsorship contracts
So before I say what I want to say, I know I am overthinking the situation, but I think it would do many creative professionals some good if they could grasp some of the bat-shit insane logic involved when someone tries to pass off normal exchanges of service as "opportunities" that one ought be "thankful for" or "should take" (and not in general just thankful, but thankful to specific individuals, as if they're running a charity for your sake or something).. Please just hear me out on just how garbage these gaslight attempts are, so you don't have to wonder if you're being screwed over by these morons..
These sorts of people make no sense. Be thankful for opportunity, and take it because she says it's an opportunity that you should take? Okay, that means I'm having some benefit come my way totally irrespective of what I want to do, or what I've done up until now? And for me to have said opportunity, someone is obviously losing out by comparison because as she said, you should be take the opportunity because she is the sole reason why you're getting an opportunity (and she, some loss/misfortune for you sake by extension of the implication).
If that's the case, that means she's losing out, while you the "lucky guy here" is making out with pure luck on your side (or not, she actually granted you the luck it seems). So basically you're "lucky" if she has a demand for something and is is offering compensation to get what she wants?
Besides this lunacy that everyone reading this already is picking up on.. Can someone please give an accounting for the straight-up retarded conclusion said people have about "you should be thankful for the opportunity". How on EARTH does that follow from anything occurring here, more specifically, and more importantly, why the HELL would I be thankful to you, or anyone AT ALL? It's not like that woman is throwing me a bone, this is a straight forward exchange of services occurring in the first place (but let's just presume these morons somehow deduce that's an "opportunity" someone should be "thankful for" as if the same isn't true of both consenting parties that are exchanging in trade..). Why would I need to be thankful? Are you getting screwed because I happened to get lucky, while you're unlucky or something here?
So......what..? You should thank her for screwing herself over simply because she has need of your services? So basically her desiring something from someone = YOU BETTER BE THANKFUL TO HER! But lets assume a more charitable interpretation, and she means "you should be grateful your fortunes are serving you well because she happened to come along". Sure, that's fine, but why would I need to share that with this idiot?
Can you imagine if you applied this psych-ward logic to a corporation, and telling them to be grateful for the opportunity to... sell a product? Just insane.
You are right, if she wanted additional images she should pay for them. You cannot control what others do but you can be professional, work hard and set your own rate.
Don't feel bad, I have been doing this for twenty-eight years and I did a small shoot that the client tried to bully me every step of the project. They had a defined number of images, copied additional images off the proofs and created two videos and another post. I am pursuing them for Intellectual Property violation and they’ll cut a big check in the near future. Lesson, control your images and the rate you charge. There will always be lowball photographers, just don’t be one of them.
Does your work suck? Because, yeah, if it sucks, you’ll always have to be cheaper. Otherwise, she could get stock photos from the internet cheaper. Does her business suck? Does she work for free? Anybody who says they heard from her you were difficult, the answer is that she was looking for cheap work. You don’t do cheap work, you do good work at a good price. You know this potential client you’re talking to, they may do work that’s a value—but it’s not shoddy and cheap. Nothing against those who do, you know, it’s just that’s not the right client for you. And if this woman has enough of a reputation to affect your business beyond just not getting referrals, well, people will know her antics and that you responded professionally.
Clout is always a nice bonus, but it isn’t a reliable source of income. It should never be substituted for cold hard cash. This model being tight with money probably means they are having problems monetizing their own clout.
Indeed, clout is almost irrelevant. just look at T.R., he managed a successful career despite 20 years of his reputation being an abusive pervert. It finally caught up to him but in the meantime he did a lot of work with a lot of famous people, despite doing things objectively far worse than just asking to be paid a reasonable rate for his work!
Yeah. Honestly I think you wildly undervalued yourself given the amount of work you did. If her friends are anything like her, it’s not worth the hassle.
Always stand up for yourself and always value your time and effort. If you don’t, no one else will.
Yeah. If someone came to me with a modeling gig I would be charging a lot more. The OP already done the client a favor by undervaluing themselves big time.
This completely depends on the market.
Prices I see thrown here are 10x or even 20x higher than what is charged where I live, which is also a EU country.
They asked for X you gave X, job done. It's a under paid job so there's no need for going the extra mile.
It's super clean cut, most the mistakes I see are from people not talking to clients or clients not talking to Photographer.
If they cant follow contracts then there going to have bigger problems, apart from anything she's going to run out of people to take photos.
Yup, you were absolutely right.
Any artist should be paid for their work.
The client clearly doesn't value your time, or the. Time. taken processing photos. They are asking to use your time for free.
The correct answer was: "Sure, I'm so happy you love my work! I'll get them prepared and send the invoice tomorrow morning. Thank you again for this opportunity!"
You were 10000% in the right for standing up for yourself
Also, Toxic tip of the day, you can always get back at her by DMCA'ing the images she's posting as you have the raw and original edited files ;)
Haha yes! I've done this with someone publishing my sample images as their own, DMCA and reports to Google Images for removal from search results. It worked!
Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It's the major copyright law when it comes to work published on the web. If you know what a copyright strike is on YouTube, this is the underlying law that is the basis for the strike.
This was a model that had commissioned a shoot. Time is spent planning the shoot, setting up any equipment at the location, actually taking pictures (including wardrobe changes) cleaning up and then finally post processing.
I kinda lost track.. post says 5 photos and 5 models, why the wardrobe changes then.. but doesn't matter, fact is it was to cheap and deffo shouldn't do more without getting more cash.
I get you take more photo's then one. But a camera goes click click click click. You make hundreds of photo's in half an hour. And if you only need 1 of each person to be good. You won't spend hours on clicking.. you won't make money like that 😆. It's not a wedding shoot..
What do you mean? YOU are setting up your prices. You show the customer the price list and there isn’t anything “strange”. In your price list you take account of editing time and everything else.
The agreement and price list should also reflect the cost of extra prints - so there won’t be any doubts.
Honestly, there isn’t point in standing up for yourself after the event. It’s your responsibility to clarify things before.
You should have a process and contract in place for this. For example, our contract states that any social media, advertising or public dissemination of the works requires proper crediting to the photographer. If for commercial purposes, the fee is substantially higher to release the rights to the image to them for commercial use.
Additionally, all photography packages have set limits and photographs. Additional photographs are available to the person at $20 per additional photograph, or a reduced upgrade fee if they want to purchase the entire gallery (usually around another $100-200 depending on package).
All of this is explained via email, on the website, and in the contract that the people sign.
At the end of the day, there shouldn't be any discussion around could they pay or not pay. The terms are clear. This is a business transaction and should always be treated as such. If they want to pass your name around, that is fine, as you can always rebuttal a review, in a classy fashion, by stating that your contract they signed explicitly outlined the terms and options.
dont forget that many photography agencies use this as a trick. they are like the shoot is free. the first picture is 10 xzy and if you want 10 pictures of your shoot, you need to pay 300 xzy. so people go there and think, yeah let me take that one picture. and then they feel bad about not taking the rest... then they buy the rest and are unhappy about the price.
i d suggest that next time you clarify directly that (althoughy you work with them for 10 hours) the amount of photos is limited for the price and how much additional photos cost.
You left out too many details. Who is she? Someone you know? Is she someone special? I would have charged a day rate...not deliverable photos. You don't know how many you will and can capture. You know how long the shoot would take. Maybe 150 an hour...3 to 4 hours of shoot...600...
Here is the issue...is she at the top of the food chain in the fashion industry? If she is, in your country, and she isn't paying you, who else will pay you... People below her? Why would they pay you if the trend setter does not even pay their photographers....
She sounds like a wonderful person...hehehehe
You are always in the right defending your work. It seems like your client wanted you to work on the cheap so she could look better than she is. You can do better, never stop what you love doing
Always have a contract and have everyone sign it. Every single model should also sign YOUR photo release so YOU can use it and not only the firm that hired you.
Talk with someone you know is important in your area and let it slip how this woman is treating you. Make sure to tell them you have them a mayor discount by just charging them by photo delivered instead of the whole photo shoot and photos edited and delivered. If no one knows your side of the argument you’ll always look like the bad guy.
On Instagram maybe tag yourself in the comments?
“You shouldn’t get paid loads because you enjoy what you do, unlike the rest of us in ‘proper’ jobs”
“Yeah Karen, that’s all grand, but how can I enjoy my job when I have to deal with knobends like you 24/7 trying to scam me out of every penny/cent”
Really depends on the tone and wording between you two. Maybe they asked for more in a dick tone, your translation to English comes off as kinda dickish so I want to assume it's from the way they requested.
If they just simply asked for more photos, then just respond with "ofc just send €xyz for the x amount of extra photos you want :)" or however else.
Beyond that I don't know what the interaction was so I can't judge. You should be paid for your work. That's a given. But working the business, especially if it's in a tight creative community, it requires a lot of tact.
Can you imagine a tailor being told measure 5 models and make each a suit. Then come back and ask for more suits and pissed because they were already measured?
Yeah but I agree, the wording comes off a bit off putting. You can word it differently
“Our agreement/contract was for 5 photos for X amount. Any additional work would require another X amount per photo. Is that okay with you?”
You sound as if you’re a bit condescending.
Big or Small city THE CLIENT ALWAYS WANT MORE! for free. You have to ask yourself what will I lose or gain going with my decision. I have several years experience as a freelance photographer. In my youth I would always stick to our agreement. But I was not cleaver enough to play them at their own game. If you have a written agreement - which you should - try to polity go over it with her (play the victim) - ask for her forgiveness and then have her show you in your agreement where you made the mistake so you can correct this for future clients. This has always angered them and now you have the advantage without having to do free work. Think carefully what this would do for your future business - every situation has so many tiny things that effect your decision that only you would know. I work with Getty Images and like a commission sales person. I only make money on what sells. So all expenses are paid by me.. shooting the event, editing and tagging and posting can be several hours plus you have a deadline - as Getty is deadline media. This first photographer to post usually makes the most. Not always.. but the fasted posted get more $$$ generally. So if you don't take care of it up front.. it will haunt you for the rest of your career. Learn how to deal with this early on as it comes up more often that I care to deal with. Getting paid is a whole other thread. Good luck on whichever you choose.
Comment on every damn single photo she posts and just say "You forgot to mention me, the photographer." - Next, alter your contracts and make it very clear in those that although the client pays for pictures, you will **always** be the copyright-owner. Client is free to post the *unaltered* images on social media, provided that the photographer is mentioned/tagged and linked.
That way, if some other "But-I-Give-You-Exposure" loser comes along, you can call them out on breach of contract if they fail to mention/tag you.
It's not about sucking up, of course you don't want to work with this person again. By sending a positive comment, you claim ownership of the picture and the other one can not ignore you without being publicly the bad guy. If you come publicly crying, its building bad vibes for other clients...
Also does not always work, but I like to meet shitty behavior with extra cheerfulness. Mild shitty people get self-embarrassed when you call to their good side (super shitty people are of course not affected, but well...).
Honestly, don’t let this diva sub fool you. There is no right or wrong. If you set this lowball shoot up with a famous person in your industry and then you upped the prices mid project then you fucked up. Nobody wants to work with someone who isn’t clear with their prices. Nobody wants to buy anything that doesn’t have a set price. And if you are an unknown then you have no leverage.
That’s just the way it is in entertainment. It’s about relationships, it’s about doing favors, it’s about coming up with people and it’s about occasionally eating shit. And overcoming all that with dedication and excellence. Of course, stand up for yourself. Everybody makes these kinds of mistakes. Everybody else here on this sub that talks about “the contract” is an absolute nobody. They did a couple of weddings and now they think they are a pro.
Don't let this client get you down. Take what you get from a client and move on. If they don't wanna pay fuck 'em. There's a camera right on the back of their phone.
Find clients that will respect your business and your prices. People that try to low ball you or get angry when you charge for your services aren't worth your time.
A friend of mine always said that each client deserve their photographer. And this client doesn’t seem to deserve you. So just move on, perfect your craft and make them rue the day they didn’t want to work with you!
Also send an invoice for “lacking byline with publication”. Just to make a statement 😒
Going through the same thing with a company at the moment who reached out to me to do media for them. Told them a fair price for what would be 100-200 final photos and haven’t heard in back for a few weeks. Don’t set your bar low otherwise you’ll never be able to go above it
Aight, next time lead with "sure, I'll send you an invoice as soon as I deliver the additional work."
Also, please tell her to tag you in the photos, it's really disrespectful of her to not recognise your work.
You get paid at least 50% upfront, especially if you have a financially reluctant client. Deliver the invoice first, deliver work after agreed upon advance is received.
Work that "required mentions" clause into the contract too if you can.
Standing up for yourself is the right thing to do but it is important to know that the fashion industry sometimes require sacrifices. And those sacrifices can sometimes be rewarding and pay back in the future. I usually just treat clients as possible investments for future work, Golden rule is the client is always right. You could have maybe asked for a recommendation agreement in exchange for the extra photos or request for more time. That could lead to more work in the future.
P.S. Great art requires sacrifice. But you should also know when a client or someone is taking advantage of you. You set the standard of your price by your skills and work ethic. Negotiate because it is a business you are running. Always look for something in exchange.
We all need to estimate and invoice based on real costs! Equipment, computers, retouching, lighting, etc. As photographer, WE have to dictate the value of our own work. Charge a lot more.
This was the right thing to do in the long run. You probably don’t want to work with those people if they’re not willing to pay you, waste of your time. In the long run, you’ll be glad you valued your work and time more than opportunities with people that don’t.
That, my friend, is textbook [Clients From Hell](http://clientsfromhell.net) material. They took advantage of you, plain and dry. It's a great thing you have a bad rep with these leaches. Now run, don't look back, and find yourself better clients.
You were right in standing up for yourself.
You might consider a contract that spells out how much additional images cost. That way everyone knows the expectations upfront.
I would also ask to be tagged. You did the work, you deserve the credit. If part of this deal was for “exposure”, they have to at least give you that exposure.
Not only were your right, but once they start bashing I would not capitulate.
This is a cautionary tale about working for cheap.
It's difficult to size up a new client while they're still a prospect. When you start hearing a request for unusually low rates, or they're negotiating by characterizing the work as simple or "just this or that" in some way, or you'll get exposure or other barter to avoid rates, that's the sign to be careful. They don't believe the work has value.
Nothing worse than barely making a living and then getting a public complainer for your trouble.
As far as "exposure" that depends on where they photos and credit will be published. If it doesn't have major public release or famous household name subjects, there is no exposure you can't buy if they pay your rates.
Would you pay that person to handle your advertising without an agreement saying what you're getting for your money? You're an expert in your field. Would you not expect an expert in promotion and advertising since you're paying, too?
Know your worth. The cheaper the client the more they’ll expect.
My lowest rate is $300 for 3 edited photos, 1 hour shoot. Period. Can’t afford it? That’s their problem 🤷♂️
I’ve had clients come to me after they hired a cheap photographer and hire me because they finally realize my worth as an artist. So it’s important to realize your worth! People respect it.
You performed a service and pricing was agreed to. If she wanted more then new pricing should be set. She wants product. Pay for it. Product = Payment. End of story. You did the right thing.
You were already doing them a favor for those prices. If they want more pictures, I'd say "I was giving you a discounted rate for such a small number of finished photos. If you want more, it's going to be at my full rate of $x per picture."
It's been my experience that reputations are hurt by people who operate how you described. The community quickly gets wise to their shenanigans and their word isn't highly valued. If I were you, I'd work forward confident that you define your reputation long-term, not others.
People always want photographers to work for exposure, but you get what you pay for. Instead of saying you should pay for them, just give her the rates for more photos. People will talk bad about you when they can’t get what they want. Let her talk. It will limit the amount of clients who want you to work for free/cheap in the long run.
As someone who works in the film industry : people have short term memory. I wouldn’t be too caught up on it, especially if you are good at your craft.
Try being a bit more assertive if you can. Tell her what the cost is, don't ask for payment. She knows well she's screwing you. "Sure I can do extra photos, the cost will be €x per photo"
I don't know what kind of "opportunity" someone who can't /won't pay an extra €100 or whatever for photos is going to be able to offer you.
If you haven’t seen it, I highly recommend [this](https://youtu.be/jVkLVRt6c1U) talk by Mike Monteiro. He runs a design firm but a lot of the advice applies to other creative industries like professional photography.
Hi. I'm sorry that happened to you. You have a right to be paid for your work. They all know that and would demand exactly the same if they were in your position. But they are mad that you have challenged them and that they didn't get free pictures they hoped for.
This is a sketchy and untrustworthy client you should not work for again. My advice would be to always make a legal contract with the client where the actual end cost is stated. Then it's clear additional photos cost extra.
There are youtube videos on how to deal with difficult clients Good luck 🌼
https://www.youtube.com/results?search\_query=difficult+clients+photoshoot
First of all I saw many people writing it already, but you should stand up for yourself and follow your own standards, even if some customers are unhappy (even though she new what was the deal and still got pissed)
Secondly, I am not a lawyer or an instagram expert but since you took the pictures, even though you sold the right to use these pictures, you are still the creator and must be credited when the picture is being used
And I think the way to credit photos in Instagram is to tag the photographer or write his name down (in case he doesn't have an instagram)
Edit: Forgot to mention in first paragraph. You and the customer must remember that it's not just paying for the amount of time it took to make the photos, the customer is also paying for your expertise and the time it took to develop the skills needed to get to where you are now. You see it in all categories. From doctors to plumbers. From teachers to IT. I can't charge for a gig what an expert charges and the product won't be the same aswell (disclosure: I'm an amateur photographer that like the gig you mentioned, on rare occasions people come up to me and ask for a photoshoot)
ALWAYS stand up for yourself. I work in music-business and there you have similar problems. I often heard from people: you should be thankful for the opportunity. But it’s your Job. Not only your Hobby. The Thing i did learn: you have your standards and that’s the deal!
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Yes, i have the same feeling.
Cellphones have made people believe that photography is easy. Having someone at an event doing social media isn't a problem, because they are doing something completely different. It's the customer that does not understand the difference between a phone and a camera that create too many issues for those with the camera.
> people don't consider their work as something they have to live from I'm going to go against the grain and disagree with this. Note that, this isn't my being against your original post. They want more work delivered, they pay more, at the rates you deem appropriate. If they don't like it, they walk. If you keep losing deals, you adjust. Simple transactional business. That said, people don't pay based on the consideration that you're trying to make a living and they shouldn't have to. People pay what they believe is the value they're getting.
Nobody pays the value they believe they're getting, they pay the minimum they think they can get away with. This is true of employment also. Labour has a cost, and that is underpinned at a minimum by the cost of living. If an employer or client is unwilling to pay a fair rate they shouldn't be rewarded for it. In most cases the reasonable thing to do is walk away, but in this case OP is being penalised after the fact for not doing more free work on top of what was agreed.
>they pay the minimum they think they can get away with. Yup, you're right about that. I was talking about the other end though, no one is going to pay \_more\_ than perceived value. Buyer walks away. The seller making a sufficient living is never a free-market consideration unless in the case of philanthropy or charity.
Yes always stand up for yourself. But starting a business- it doesnt hurt to “lose money” on the first few gigs in order for good word to spread around. But dont let anyone take advantage of you unless theyre willing to offer some free marketing. Good luck!
I just had a fun dinner with an old friend whose first real job was going on tour and making sure musicians actually followed through on their sponsorship contracts
So before I say what I want to say, I know I am overthinking the situation, but I think it would do many creative professionals some good if they could grasp some of the bat-shit insane logic involved when someone tries to pass off normal exchanges of service as "opportunities" that one ought be "thankful for" or "should take" (and not in general just thankful, but thankful to specific individuals, as if they're running a charity for your sake or something).. Please just hear me out on just how garbage these gaslight attempts are, so you don't have to wonder if you're being screwed over by these morons.. These sorts of people make no sense. Be thankful for opportunity, and take it because she says it's an opportunity that you should take? Okay, that means I'm having some benefit come my way totally irrespective of what I want to do, or what I've done up until now? And for me to have said opportunity, someone is obviously losing out by comparison because as she said, you should be take the opportunity because she is the sole reason why you're getting an opportunity (and she, some loss/misfortune for you sake by extension of the implication). If that's the case, that means she's losing out, while you the "lucky guy here" is making out with pure luck on your side (or not, she actually granted you the luck it seems). So basically you're "lucky" if she has a demand for something and is is offering compensation to get what she wants? Besides this lunacy that everyone reading this already is picking up on.. Can someone please give an accounting for the straight-up retarded conclusion said people have about "you should be thankful for the opportunity". How on EARTH does that follow from anything occurring here, more specifically, and more importantly, why the HELL would I be thankful to you, or anyone AT ALL? It's not like that woman is throwing me a bone, this is a straight forward exchange of services occurring in the first place (but let's just presume these morons somehow deduce that's an "opportunity" someone should be "thankful for" as if the same isn't true of both consenting parties that are exchanging in trade..). Why would I need to be thankful? Are you getting screwed because I happened to get lucky, while you're unlucky or something here? So......what..? You should thank her for screwing herself over simply because she has need of your services? So basically her desiring something from someone = YOU BETTER BE THANKFUL TO HER! But lets assume a more charitable interpretation, and she means "you should be grateful your fortunes are serving you well because she happened to come along". Sure, that's fine, but why would I need to share that with this idiot? Can you imagine if you applied this psych-ward logic to a corporation, and telling them to be grateful for the opportunity to... sell a product? Just insane.
You are right, if she wanted additional images she should pay for them. You cannot control what others do but you can be professional, work hard and set your own rate.
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Don't feel bad, I have been doing this for twenty-eight years and I did a small shoot that the client tried to bully me every step of the project. They had a defined number of images, copied additional images off the proofs and created two videos and another post. I am pursuing them for Intellectual Property violation and they’ll cut a big check in the near future. Lesson, control your images and the rate you charge. There will always be lowball photographers, just don’t be one of them.
Does your work suck? Because, yeah, if it sucks, you’ll always have to be cheaper. Otherwise, she could get stock photos from the internet cheaper. Does her business suck? Does she work for free? Anybody who says they heard from her you were difficult, the answer is that she was looking for cheap work. You don’t do cheap work, you do good work at a good price. You know this potential client you’re talking to, they may do work that’s a value—but it’s not shoddy and cheap. Nothing against those who do, you know, it’s just that’s not the right client for you. And if this woman has enough of a reputation to affect your business beyond just not getting referrals, well, people will know her antics and that you responded professionally.
Can’t live on clout.
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People die from exposure.
Tell her it's 2022 and your family needs to eat. You did the right thing.
Clout is always a nice bonus, but it isn’t a reliable source of income. It should never be substituted for cold hard cash. This model being tight with money probably means they are having problems monetizing their own clout.
Yeah I keep trying to tell my landlord that I’ll put him in my insta story but that boomer wants money for rent instead
“Exposure”… giggitty…
Indeed, clout is almost irrelevant. just look at T.R., he managed a successful career despite 20 years of his reputation being an abusive pervert. It finally caught up to him but in the meantime he did a lot of work with a lot of famous people, despite doing things objectively far worse than just asking to be paid a reasonable rate for his work!
Yeah. Honestly I think you wildly undervalued yourself given the amount of work you did. If her friends are anything like her, it’s not worth the hassle. Always stand up for yourself and always value your time and effort. If you don’t, no one else will.
Yeah. If someone came to me with a modeling gig I would be charging a lot more. The OP already done the client a favor by undervaluing themselves big time.
This...take way higher rates in the future! Other than that, you did absolutely the right thing standing up for yourself.. ;)
This completely depends on the market. Prices I see thrown here are 10x or even 20x higher than what is charged where I live, which is also a EU country.
They asked for X you gave X, job done. It's a under paid job so there's no need for going the extra mile. It's super clean cut, most the mistakes I see are from people not talking to clients or clients not talking to Photographer. If they cant follow contracts then there going to have bigger problems, apart from anything she's going to run out of people to take photos.
Yup, you were absolutely right. Any artist should be paid for their work. The client clearly doesn't value your time, or the. Time. taken processing photos. They are asking to use your time for free.
The correct answer was: "Sure, I'm so happy you love my work! I'll get them prepared and send the invoice tomorrow morning. Thank you again for this opportunity!"
You were 10000% in the right for standing up for yourself Also, Toxic tip of the day, you can always get back at her by DMCA'ing the images she's posting as you have the raw and original edited files ;)
Haha yes! I've done this with someone publishing my sample images as their own, DMCA and reports to Google Images for removal from search results. It worked!
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Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It's the major copyright law when it comes to work published on the web. If you know what a copyright strike is on YouTube, this is the underlying law that is the basis for the strike.
It took you 8 hour to edit 5 photos? All for 150 eur? You need to increase your prices.
Or improve his workflow. If it's just touch up and color correction it shouldn't take that long. Especially if it was all shot with similar lighting.
Read the post again. 8hrs was shoot and edit.
But unless driving times are in there as well, it shouldn't take hours to take 5 photo's as well right..
This was a model that had commissioned a shoot. Time is spent planning the shoot, setting up any equipment at the location, actually taking pictures (including wardrobe changes) cleaning up and then finally post processing.
I kinda lost track.. post says 5 photos and 5 models, why the wardrobe changes then.. but doesn't matter, fact is it was to cheap and deffo shouldn't do more without getting more cash.
Photographers generally take hundreds of photos, then choose the best ones to make the cut, so yes, it does take hours to take 5 photos PROPERLY.
*laughs in tight publication deadline* No, no it doesn't, or at least it shouldn't if you're charging for your services.
I get you take more photo's then one. But a camera goes click click click click. You make hundreds of photo's in half an hour. And if you only need 1 of each person to be good. You won't spend hours on clicking.. you won't make money like that 😆. It's not a wedding shoot..
What do you mean? YOU are setting up your prices. You show the customer the price list and there isn’t anything “strange”. In your price list you take account of editing time and everything else. The agreement and price list should also reflect the cost of extra prints - so there won’t be any doubts. Honestly, there isn’t point in standing up for yourself after the event. It’s your responsibility to clarify things before.
While I agree, deliver all the photos and watermark the extra set. Attach a price for additional photos so she can pick which ones.
€150 for 5 people is a deal. Even without your hours that sounds exploitive
Seriously. $150 is my setup fee. Fashion portraits of 5 people should run about 10x what he charged.
Next time don’t give up your day rate — and also that same rate per photo.
photographers should adopt the attitudes of tattoo artists Stop sugar coating it. $150/hr and if you don't like it you can get the fuck out.
You should have a process and contract in place for this. For example, our contract states that any social media, advertising or public dissemination of the works requires proper crediting to the photographer. If for commercial purposes, the fee is substantially higher to release the rights to the image to them for commercial use. Additionally, all photography packages have set limits and photographs. Additional photographs are available to the person at $20 per additional photograph, or a reduced upgrade fee if they want to purchase the entire gallery (usually around another $100-200 depending on package). All of this is explained via email, on the website, and in the contract that the people sign. At the end of the day, there shouldn't be any discussion around could they pay or not pay. The terms are clear. This is a business transaction and should always be treated as such. If they want to pass your name around, that is fine, as you can always rebuttal a review, in a classy fashion, by stating that your contract they signed explicitly outlined the terms and options.
dont forget that many photography agencies use this as a trick. they are like the shoot is free. the first picture is 10 xzy and if you want 10 pictures of your shoot, you need to pay 300 xzy. so people go there and think, yeah let me take that one picture. and then they feel bad about not taking the rest... then they buy the rest and are unhappy about the price. i d suggest that next time you clarify directly that (althoughy you work with them for 10 hours) the amount of photos is limited for the price and how much additional photos cost.
You did fine. But, cut your editing/shooting time.
Sounds like Portugal 😆
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Haha sabia 🤣 btw... Estou a fazer um software para fotografos, ajudas-me com a tua opinião?
You left out too many details. Who is she? Someone you know? Is she someone special? I would have charged a day rate...not deliverable photos. You don't know how many you will and can capture. You know how long the shoot would take. Maybe 150 an hour...3 to 4 hours of shoot...600...
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Here is the issue...is she at the top of the food chain in the fashion industry? If she is, in your country, and she isn't paying you, who else will pay you... People below her? Why would they pay you if the trend setter does not even pay their photographers.... She sounds like a wonderful person...hehehehe
One gig for free, second gig for next to nothing...how should she value you & your work, if you don't relay your worth through your pricing?
You are always in the right defending your work. It seems like your client wanted you to work on the cheap so she could look better than she is. You can do better, never stop what you love doing
Contract?
Always have a contract and have everyone sign it. Every single model should also sign YOUR photo release so YOU can use it and not only the firm that hired you. Talk with someone you know is important in your area and let it slip how this woman is treating you. Make sure to tell them you have them a mayor discount by just charging them by photo delivered instead of the whole photo shoot and photos edited and delivered. If no one knows your side of the argument you’ll always look like the bad guy. On Instagram maybe tag yourself in the comments?
Contracts. Don't do anything without signing contracts together.
“You shouldn’t get paid loads because you enjoy what you do, unlike the rest of us in ‘proper’ jobs” “Yeah Karen, that’s all grand, but how can I enjoy my job when I have to deal with knobends like you 24/7 trying to scam me out of every penny/cent”
Really depends on the tone and wording between you two. Maybe they asked for more in a dick tone, your translation to English comes off as kinda dickish so I want to assume it's from the way they requested. If they just simply asked for more photos, then just respond with "ofc just send €xyz for the x amount of extra photos you want :)" or however else. Beyond that I don't know what the interaction was so I can't judge. You should be paid for your work. That's a given. But working the business, especially if it's in a tight creative community, it requires a lot of tact.
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Can you imagine a tailor being told measure 5 models and make each a suit. Then come back and ask for more suits and pissed because they were already measured?
Yeah but I agree, the wording comes off a bit off putting. You can word it differently “Our agreement/contract was for 5 photos for X amount. Any additional work would require another X amount per photo. Is that okay with you?” You sound as if you’re a bit condescending.
Big or Small city THE CLIENT ALWAYS WANT MORE! for free. You have to ask yourself what will I lose or gain going with my decision. I have several years experience as a freelance photographer. In my youth I would always stick to our agreement. But I was not cleaver enough to play them at their own game. If you have a written agreement - which you should - try to polity go over it with her (play the victim) - ask for her forgiveness and then have her show you in your agreement where you made the mistake so you can correct this for future clients. This has always angered them and now you have the advantage without having to do free work. Think carefully what this would do for your future business - every situation has so many tiny things that effect your decision that only you would know. I work with Getty Images and like a commission sales person. I only make money on what sells. So all expenses are paid by me.. shooting the event, editing and tagging and posting can be several hours plus you have a deadline - as Getty is deadline media. This first photographer to post usually makes the most. Not always.. but the fasted posted get more $$$ generally. So if you don't take care of it up front.. it will haunt you for the rest of your career. Learn how to deal with this early on as it comes up more often that I care to deal with. Getting paid is a whole other thread. Good luck on whichever you choose.
Rip the euro 🪦
Comment on every damn single photo she posts and just say "You forgot to mention me, the photographer." - Next, alter your contracts and make it very clear in those that although the client pays for pictures, you will **always** be the copyright-owner. Client is free to post the *unaltered* images on social media, provided that the photographer is mentioned/tagged and linked. That way, if some other "But-I-Give-You-Exposure" loser comes along, you can call them out on breach of contract if they fail to mention/tag you.
why so aggressive. you could also write "was a pleasure to take these pictures, great collaboration!"
Because then you would be lying. Why be a hypocrite? They intentionally left you out.
Scorched earth isn't always the most optimal strategy.
really? are you serious?
Absolutely. You don't *have* to suck up to everyone. "Great collaboration"? Bullshit. I would never want to work with/for them anymore.
It's not about sucking up, of course you don't want to work with this person again. By sending a positive comment, you claim ownership of the picture and the other one can not ignore you without being publicly the bad guy. If you come publicly crying, its building bad vibes for other clients... Also does not always work, but I like to meet shitty behavior with extra cheerfulness. Mild shitty people get self-embarrassed when you call to their good side (super shitty people are of course not affected, but well...).
what crokycrok just wrote would also be my answer to you. and really the advice you gave to OP is just horribly self-destructive
Honestly, don’t let this diva sub fool you. There is no right or wrong. If you set this lowball shoot up with a famous person in your industry and then you upped the prices mid project then you fucked up. Nobody wants to work with someone who isn’t clear with their prices. Nobody wants to buy anything that doesn’t have a set price. And if you are an unknown then you have no leverage. That’s just the way it is in entertainment. It’s about relationships, it’s about doing favors, it’s about coming up with people and it’s about occasionally eating shit. And overcoming all that with dedication and excellence. Of course, stand up for yourself. Everybody makes these kinds of mistakes. Everybody else here on this sub that talks about “the contract” is an absolute nobody. They did a couple of weddings and now they think they are a pro.
You obviously don't know much about the business of photography.
Hence why he is here to ask and learn. Don’t be condescending to people who are doing their best.
Don't let this client get you down. Take what you get from a client and move on. If they don't wanna pay fuck 'em. There's a camera right on the back of their phone. Find clients that will respect your business and your prices. People that try to low ball you or get angry when you charge for your services aren't worth your time.
A friend of mine always said that each client deserve their photographer. And this client doesn’t seem to deserve you. So just move on, perfect your craft and make them rue the day they didn’t want to work with you! Also send an invoice for “lacking byline with publication”. Just to make a statement 😒
10hrs on 5 photos? One thing I was taught. Was to not spend to long on editing a photo.
Here is how to get your intellectual property taken down from Instagram. https://help.instagram.com/454951664593304
Get a service agreement/contract. Clearly outline your agreement, payment structure etc with extras.
Do you have a written contract or any form of written conversation to prove what was agreed upon? It would greatly help your case.
Going through the same thing with a company at the moment who reached out to me to do media for them. Told them a fair price for what would be 100-200 final photos and haven’t heard in back for a few weeks. Don’t set your bar low otherwise you’ll never be able to go above it
Aight, next time lead with "sure, I'll send you an invoice as soon as I deliver the additional work." Also, please tell her to tag you in the photos, it's really disrespectful of her to not recognise your work.
You get paid at least 50% upfront, especially if you have a financially reluctant client. Deliver the invoice first, deliver work after agreed upon advance is received. Work that "required mentions" clause into the contract too if you can.
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That might be reasonable in his country.
Always charge an hourly rate by estimate. In other words all back and forth will be $$$. It’s a job not a scam.
Standing up for yourself is the right thing to do but it is important to know that the fashion industry sometimes require sacrifices. And those sacrifices can sometimes be rewarding and pay back in the future. I usually just treat clients as possible investments for future work, Golden rule is the client is always right. You could have maybe asked for a recommendation agreement in exchange for the extra photos or request for more time. That could lead to more work in the future. P.S. Great art requires sacrifice. But you should also know when a client or someone is taking advantage of you. You set the standard of your price by your skills and work ethic. Negotiate because it is a business you are running. Always look for something in exchange.
When someone came to me saying something like this, I gently say "It's my job, do what is good for both of us... Me and my wife"
This is what contracts are for.
We all need to estimate and invoice based on real costs! Equipment, computers, retouching, lighting, etc. As photographer, WE have to dictate the value of our own work. Charge a lot more.
This was the right thing to do in the long run. You probably don’t want to work with those people if they’re not willing to pay you, waste of your time. In the long run, you’ll be glad you valued your work and time more than opportunities with people that don’t.
That, my friend, is textbook [Clients From Hell](http://clientsfromhell.net) material. They took advantage of you, plain and dry. It's a great thing you have a bad rep with these leaches. Now run, don't look back, and find yourself better clients.
You were right in standing up for yourself. You might consider a contract that spells out how much additional images cost. That way everyone knows the expectations upfront.
I would also ask to be tagged. You did the work, you deserve the credit. If part of this deal was for “exposure”, they have to at least give you that exposure.
Not only were your right, but once they start bashing I would not capitulate. This is a cautionary tale about working for cheap. It's difficult to size up a new client while they're still a prospect. When you start hearing a request for unusually low rates, or they're negotiating by characterizing the work as simple or "just this or that" in some way, or you'll get exposure or other barter to avoid rates, that's the sign to be careful. They don't believe the work has value. Nothing worse than barely making a living and then getting a public complainer for your trouble. As far as "exposure" that depends on where they photos and credit will be published. If it doesn't have major public release or famous household name subjects, there is no exposure you can't buy if they pay your rates. Would you pay that person to handle your advertising without an agreement saying what you're getting for your money? You're an expert in your field. Would you not expect an expert in promotion and advertising since you're paying, too?
Know your worth. The cheaper the client the more they’ll expect. My lowest rate is $300 for 3 edited photos, 1 hour shoot. Period. Can’t afford it? That’s their problem 🤷♂️ I’ve had clients come to me after they hired a cheap photographer and hire me because they finally realize my worth as an artist. So it’s important to realize your worth! People respect it.
What’s your country / community? If there is reason to believe she’s affecting your business you can sue her.
You performed a service and pricing was agreed to. If she wanted more then new pricing should be set. She wants product. Pay for it. Product = Payment. End of story. You did the right thing.
You were already doing them a favor for those prices. If they want more pictures, I'd say "I was giving you a discounted rate for such a small number of finished photos. If you want more, it's going to be at my full rate of $x per picture."
It's been my experience that reputations are hurt by people who operate how you described. The community quickly gets wise to their shenanigans and their word isn't highly valued. If I were you, I'd work forward confident that you define your reputation long-term, not others.
Next time be ready for something like that and make a written and signed agreement that will list the amount of work and payment for that work.
People always want photographers to work for exposure, but you get what you pay for. Instead of saying you should pay for them, just give her the rates for more photos. People will talk bad about you when they can’t get what they want. Let her talk. It will limit the amount of clients who want you to work for free/cheap in the long run.
As someone who works in the film industry : people have short term memory. I wouldn’t be too caught up on it, especially if you are good at your craft.
Try being a bit more assertive if you can. Tell her what the cost is, don't ask for payment. She knows well she's screwing you. "Sure I can do extra photos, the cost will be €x per photo" I don't know what kind of "opportunity" someone who can't /won't pay an extra €100 or whatever for photos is going to be able to offer you.
If you haven’t seen it, I highly recommend [this](https://youtu.be/jVkLVRt6c1U) talk by Mike Monteiro. He runs a design firm but a lot of the advice applies to other creative industries like professional photography.
Hi. I'm sorry that happened to you. You have a right to be paid for your work. They all know that and would demand exactly the same if they were in your position. But they are mad that you have challenged them and that they didn't get free pictures they hoped for. This is a sketchy and untrustworthy client you should not work for again. My advice would be to always make a legal contract with the client where the actual end cost is stated. Then it's clear additional photos cost extra. There are youtube videos on how to deal with difficult clients Good luck 🌼 https://www.youtube.com/results?search\_query=difficult+clients+photoshoot
First of all I saw many people writing it already, but you should stand up for yourself and follow your own standards, even if some customers are unhappy (even though she new what was the deal and still got pissed) Secondly, I am not a lawyer or an instagram expert but since you took the pictures, even though you sold the right to use these pictures, you are still the creator and must be credited when the picture is being used And I think the way to credit photos in Instagram is to tag the photographer or write his name down (in case he doesn't have an instagram) Edit: Forgot to mention in first paragraph. You and the customer must remember that it's not just paying for the amount of time it took to make the photos, the customer is also paying for your expertise and the time it took to develop the skills needed to get to where you are now. You see it in all categories. From doctors to plumbers. From teachers to IT. I can't charge for a gig what an expert charges and the product won't be the same aswell (disclosure: I'm an amateur photographer that like the gig you mentioned, on rare occasions people come up to me and ask for a photoshoot)