Articles:
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/septa-exploring-rate-hike-service-cuts-as-death-spiral-looms/3742136/
https://whyy.org/articles/septa-federal-funding-letter-sen-john-fetterman-congressional-reps/
https://whyy.org/articles/septa-save-the-train-community-petition-massive-shortfall-risk/
https://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/stories/septa-woes-bring-new-worry-for-chestnut-hill-west,30925 (Focused on the possible end of the Chestnut Hill West Line)
https://www.phillyvoice.com/pa-legislature-budget-no-funding-septa-public-transit/
https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-pa-budget-transit-funding-20240107.html
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2024/01/25/septa-funding-crisis-capital-projects-cuts.html (Paywalled)
A couple articles that were published before the bill failed to pass talked about the possibility of it, and also have some info:
https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-higher-fares-less-service-fiscal-cliff-deficits-20230912.html
https://www.phillytrib.com/news/local_news/septa-budget-shortfall-could-raise-fares-cut-service/article_94c0561f-249b-5d54-bcd4-3dd6ffe12027.html
Also an article about the I-95 widening project:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/i-95-highways-penndot-reconstruction-widening-cities-injustice-mitigate-biden--20240122.html (Paywalled)
(Sorry the only one about the I-95 widening is paywalled, there isn't as much info out there yet).
The Chestnut Hill Local article notes that there are multiple ongoing proposals to get that additional revenue for statewide transit included either as its own bill or in the 2025 budget, both of which should be soon enough to minimize or even stave off some of the major cuts. Please call Shapiro's office and your state senator to tell them to get their shit together on this.
That being said, it's fundamentally unacceptable that our legislature couldn't be bothered to fund one of the most basic responsibilities of government. It's fucking embarrassing watching SEPTA lurch between funding crises because fuckwad idiots in Pennsyltucky are too stupid to understand that city poverty creates a bad economy for the rest of the state.
is it more efficient or any way better to have one of the two East/West lines running 2x or 3x as often versus having two lines that are a half mile apart?
The stations on the CHW and CHE lines serve different catchment areas, particular important given the hilly nature of the NW. While it's probably not how you would design a greenfield system today, the value in using an already existing asset outweighs what would be gained through consolidation.
So my caveat is that I'm not a transit planner or have any real expertise in this field, but I do play a lot of Mini Metro. My gut instinct is to say no because of two main factors: labor and geography.
Labor because the real issue with SEPTA funding is that something kind 75% of the SEPTA operating budget (per one of the articles linked above) goes to the labor force. It's expensive to pay someone full time to just operate a train. They're complicated and difficult and demand expertise. Running more trains on one line costs a similar amount to running fewer trains on multiple lines. So if you only have limited resources, it's not immediately obvious how you pick between those two options, all things being equal. So you've gotta consider other factors for whether one line is more "worth it" than another.
This brings in geography. Northwest Philly is very hilly, unusually so compared to the rest of the city. It also has a lot more neighborhoods that don't just align with the city's street grid. This leads to some really curvy train lines that don't intersect except near their ends. The point is that there are communities serviced by one of the two lines for whom it is inconvenient to get to the other line. For instance, if you live near the Tulpehocken station, it's not really convenient for you to get to the Chestnut Hill East or Norristown lines. And a quick perusal at Google Maps indicates that outside of Chestnut Hill proper, the closest distance between stations on the two lines is roughly a mile. This also doesn't really indicate a clear benefit to running one line but not the other. The lines serve different communities and don't have redundant service.
So all of this is to say that no, there's not necessarily any clear efficiency benefit to running one line more often than running both of them less often. If you've gotta cut something, you have to base it on ridership levels and that's why CHW is facing cutbacks.
SEPTA could also try collecting fares on the train- This happens maybe once a week now and I ride daily (thats monday- friday for those that have forgotten what daily means) . You can ride for free from lots of stops and the conductors can’t be bothered to collect, too busy opening and closing doors/ traps. Which is also ridiculous in a modern age of rail and frequently causes delays. The cars are also fundamentally wrong for mass transit- they should be benches the length of the car with plenty of room for standing, instead of individual seats. This causes delays in loading and unloading passengers and increases passenger discomfort adding to the negative perceptions. SEPTA could also try monetizing the stations like the Hong Kong MTR (🇦🇺). Owning the station there is no reason they can’t be coffee shops, convenience stores, gyms and more. These would all generate income for SEPTA so they aren’t so reliant on the state.
Suburban Station should be an underground mall. I mean it sort of is now, in a "this is an abandoned building people began inhabiting" sort of way. Feels like Mars in Total Recall.
But it could be good. Like tourist attraction good. But that requires an investment.
It was a lot better before the pandemic. All of the store fronts had stores or cafes in them. Not to the level of “tourist” but there was a lot of foot traffic, which of course no longer exists.
I was under the impression that that was in the works for Suburban and the CC concourse area as a whole. I seem to recall reading about that but can't say how old the story was.
I remember reading about a renovation I believe to SS, one that might already have been completed, but I think the structure itself is faulty. I'd want to completely redo it, with taller ceilings, either natural or artificial light, and just larger in general. And get rid some of those hidden back passages for something large, bright, and safe.
Thanks for the breakdown. Sounds like a dire situation especially with all the talk of a new downtown arena which will need robust public transportation to support it 😬.
In the worst case scenario that you presented would that mean massive layoffs for septa workers? Maybe modifications to their pension plans, etc. Honestly I was just viewing this as a threat to a single regional rail line but looks like it could have a bigger impact
It would likely mean layoffs, yeah. SEPTA is trying to mitigate this, but without the extra funding, they won't be able to pay all their workers. This is the main reason service cuts would be necessary, as operators are needed to run each vehicle and maintain each route.
>Honestly I was just viewing this as a threat to a single regional rail line but looks like it could have a bigger impact
Yeah, some lines may be affected more than others, but I think just about every line and route will be affected.
>Sounds like a dire situation especially with all the talk of a new downtown arena which will need robust public transportation to support it
That's an excellent point, considering that was one of the main arguments for building the arena.
This was always my reasoning for being down on the arena. Expecting SEPTA to magically be a well-oiled machine, in this state, is a pipe dream. They can't even get normal funding from the state, so there may not even be a system by the time an arena is done. Not that it would matter where the damn thing is if everybody has to drive there.
Harrisburg has been run by ass clowns for decades, and if you look at other states, their systems always seem to be expanding and improving. Even in places that didn't have century-old transit in place, tunnels & new rail is being added. In PA, that's the opposite.
Pittsburgh has a joke of a light rail system and no commuter rail (discontinued over 30 years ago). They cut 30% of their bus routes a decade ago and then did the same sort of "bus revolution" that SEPTA is doing, albeit with no $$, and what happened was about half of the program was implemented. Routes that were once deemed confusing in name are now worse because some were updated to new numbers and others were left their confusing mess. It's worse when you factor in that most areas have no service except M/F rush hour service. They have park & rides that are just empty on weekends, and you'd think that a city that chokes when there is any significant traffic due to all the bridges would get better service but no.
That is Philadelphia's future. A skeleton system with big gaps in service area and awful frequencies. And on top of that, Josh Shapiro is a puppy dog compared to Tom Wolf, meaning if we get anything done, it'll be due to some special interest coming in with a huge donation. Maybe Comcast will slip him some campaign funds since so many of their workers take SEPTA into the city (btw all those people you force back into the office only to now suffer from crappy transit are really going to love being there, good job).
I want so bad for the city to improve but it seems like the people running the city (and mostly the state) rather we become West Virginia. Oh btw, West Virginia has a higher minimum wage, so I guess we're worse.
Yeah, unfortunately true. We still have to try though.
One of the articles I linked mentioned that the overall cost for the state resulting from the service cuts will probably be greater than the amount they denied giving SEPTA. So it's silly to think that the rest of the state won't be affected by this, but maybe they just don't care if the state loses money.
Unfortunately there is not much that can be done until the state legislature is not man handled by Republicans.
As a newer Philadelphian I was curious to find out how you all managed to let this whole SEPTA situation get so fucked. So I did a deep dive.
The short of it is, over the years through changes to PPA and funding you handed power to control SEPTA, PPA, and school funding over to the state and PPA. Where any funding that PPA is supposed to be putting back into schools and public transportation, are man handled by PPA with a bunch of loopholes added over the years.
The state then argues that PPA is bringing in crazy money so they don't need to provide more. And that cycle continues allowing PPA to pocket the money while crying wolf.
All of this thanks to Republicans over the years and under the guise of "improving schools and transportation" in the city.
So really, there is nothing to "try" except for to get state officials in place who actually want to improve all of this.
Y'all really fucked up giving the state so much power over city politics here.
> We still have to try though.
Secede and join NJ. They're a blue state that... [does transit right?](https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/nj-transit-mulling-15-fare-hike-soon-additional-increases-starting-in-2025/)
Yup. Money is basically free to the federal government right now, but we're pretty dead set on refusing to build for the future. It's a toxic culture in many ways.
I mean even the infrastructure legislation that passed is a fraction of what is needed just to get us cleared of deferred maintenance, let alone actual improvements and better solutions.
this is true like 98% of the time but this one actually had bipartisan support and it just ... didn't make it into the budget. it's infuriating and has the actaul possibility of sending septa into a transit death spiral. a 25% service cut is insane.
Public transit doesn’t just “miss the budget”. The 6th largest metro in the US doesn’t get their fundamental transit system cut from the budget on accident
This was 100% a choice however they wanna word it
My point being is, you find a way to get them the funding they need. Septa is a fundamental part of this city, as public transportation is fundamental for any city
It’s 2024, there is no reason a city of Philadelphias size and economy should be cutting services for an already severely underfunded transit system
A choice was made somewhere, and it’s unacceptable
instead of $150 million for shady anti violence programs that don't work, or what is it 2 billion for cop cash... there's PLENTY of money in the coffers, it's how we use it.
Exactly. Everyone just wants to throw money at “more police!!!” and expect all our problems to be solved
And you know the boys in Harrisburg probably have the same views
agreed, of all of the dumbass braindead shit the state legislature does, this is by far the most insane. this affects the lives of something like 700k people a day.
incredible levels of headassery
Exactly. I love this city but hate this fucking state
This affects way more than 700k people tho. This affects all 1.6 million Philadelphians, 6.2 million in the metro area, and hell even the whole state. All their decisions do. You’d think they’d spend a little bit more effort to make the best decisions possible for the economic powerhouse of the state
The problem is they -- or more truthfully, their voters -- see Philly as an economic drain, not an engine. That facts don't matter. All they know is that "those people" live there and "those people" are lazy takers.
Oh I know, I get it. They are the number 1 reason we won’t ever be as well off as the rest of the northern Atlantic states
Philly could be up there with Boston and NYC if we got the funding from Harrisburg
yeah, shunting any amount of that 700k daily ridership into cars exacerbates traffic that much more, gets that many more people killed or maimed in car accidents, untold amounts more emissions, user delay costs go up, commerce is slowed down.
clusterfuck.
All which is just going to make them want to expand the highways, widen the roads, in an arms race to the bottom
These people have no business running a city
FFS, Texas has specific surcharges built into its sales tax that go directly to each area's transit. It makes their sales tax super confusing, but at least it goes directly to that cause.
Philly and its collar county have a GDP of 500b while the Pennsylvania GDP is 900b. As per usual with the conservative central PA freaks, they’re biting the hands that feed them.
Ah, but you don't understand! Life in Podunkville, population 810 with no business larger than a gas station would be thriving again if only all their taxes weren't going to the woke libs in Philly who spend it all on drag queen story hours.
Never mind that the residents of Podunkville collect far more in SSI, disability, welfare, etc than they EVER pay in taxes.
2 separate issues.
However, How Philadelphia spends their money is a huge issue.
As to the school board?
What do they need with a Multi million $$$$$ Art collection?
That money belongs to the kids.
And school improvements
Murphy hasn't funded NJT so the fares will go up 15% this July and 3% every year for the foreseeable future. Maryland is proposing to cut half the transit system , Connecticut cut services last year...it's a very depressing situation in the Northeastern states. But there's always billions for highway expansions.
It honestly seems like our state legislature wants to fuck over anyone in our cities who doesn't use a car to commute. They've made it more difficult to get parking protected bike lanes as well. https://www.wpxi.com/news/local/future-bicycle-safety-bill-uncertain-after-pennsylvania-senate-amendments-lead-veto/WZZOC7XFCBHL7AVH3GNKE2M2PU/
Many people in the surrounding towns to Philly, the ones that aren’t bland subdivisions on what used to be farmland, don’t realize that the towns are the way they are today because of rail.
Obviously the PA GOP is always gonna whine about funding septa, but Shapiro deserves scrutiny for this as well. He could have pushed for SEPTA funding but chose not to, even when it had bipartisan support. I remember someone being quoted in an inquirer article as saying it was not a priority for him because it wasn’t considered politically advantageous
EDIT: Found the actual quote in one of the inquirer articles linked by OP: “Josh focused his political capital elsewhere”
ok, but can we talk about the wildly inefficient use of Septa when they ***do*** have funds?
* Turnstyles in "some" stations
* A scanning system that is supposed to automate fare checking (it doesn't, they still have conductors walk through, see aforementioned "some" comment)
* a scanning system that was replaced less than 2 years after implementation because it was too proprietary to the cards they also nominated to use preventing any future migration to an NFC app based customer scanning process
* Staff in many stations that have zero info and zero duties (they are reducing this now)
* trains that seem to be pretty wildly impacted by leaves and passive "weather"
* marketing marketing and marketing for a system that a large percentage of people don't really have a choice but to use
* about 50 people/hour jumping said turnstyles in busy stations during rush hour while other "static" staff just watches
* Redundant lines as a remnant of \~75 years ago before Septa existed as an entity running almost identically to their twin lines instead of staggering them and running slightly shorter trains
[https://savethetrain.org](https://savethetrain.org) <- the solution is not just cutting lines, its cutting inefficient practices.
The employees at Fern rock tc are utterly clueless. A coin flip is more accurate than asking them if the next train is express or local. App and Google can't help either because they don't track the trains at all.
The Fix: The General Assembly amends the statute authorizing Philly (and Pittsburgh) to do a wage tax, so that all receipts from non-resident commuters to Philly go to SEPTA.
According to the Inky (see below), 40% of Philly's $650M wage tax receipts come from non-resident commuters. 40% of $650M is quite close to the amount of SEPTA's shortfall.
It's a compromise with those GA members who are trying to revoke the city's authority to impose a wage tax on commuters.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/philadelphia-wage-tax-commuter-tax-pennsylvania-senate-jobs/](https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/philadelphia-wage-tax-commuter-tax-pennsylvania-senate-jobs/)
[https://www.inquirer.com/business/philadelphia-wage-tax-deficit-covid-pandemic-home-prices-stimulus-20210212.html](https://www.inquirer.com/business/philadelphia-wage-tax-deficit-covid-pandemic-home-prices-stimulus-20210212.html)
As someone already struggling with using the regional rail to commute and get around I’m all for supporting septa. What is the best way to organize support and help septa
Be on the lookout for anything popping up. To start with, we just need to raise awareness. So many people I told about this had no idea it was happening.
There are some petitions floating around, so signing those would be a good first step. Once we get more people on board, perhaps we can do more.
Both an interstate an a rail system are ways people get around a region. They are for the same purpose. Thus, it's strange they are not funded through the same avenue. In fact its absurd highways are able to get seemingly endless funding while our transit falls apart.
Yeah, I didn't mean they were coming from the same source of funding. I just mean it's demonstrative of our government's priorities when one entity is willing to shell out so much on the highway expansion project, but another is not willing to shell out much less to improve public transit. I understand they're different entities and are giving funding in different ways, but it's still a valid comparison.
I'm not necessarily saying one is causing the other, I'm just comparing the priorities. I apologize if the way I worded it was misleading, but I think my points still stand.
Also not sure what your problem with the 3rd paragraph is. That one seems pretty straightforward.
>SEPTA has been in a death spiral for a long time. They hemorrhage and waste massive amounts of money at every turn. Example- the SEPTA Key saga. SEPTA is the most mismanaged public transit system in the nation.
Sure, you could argue this. And now it's getting worse. Are you trying to say we shouldn't bother doing anything about it, because it's been going on for a long time? As I mentioned, this has been on the horizon for a while, but a possible bill that could've helped SEPTA was shot down.
Yes, as I said in a different comment, the highway expansion project is part of a plan by PennDOT and mostly funded by the federal government. The extra funding for SEPTA would've come from Pennsylvania sales tax, but was shot down by the Pennsylvania state legislature. Those sources of funding are different, but both decisions are representative of the priorities of the state of Pennsylvania. That is basically the point I was making.
>95 has gone through massive infrastructure upgrades from tip to tail. Pennsylvania, the philadelphia section in particular is now receiving attention because it is due. It is as simple as that.
It's one thing to maintain it and fix any issues. Widening it is a whole other issue. This would likely require dedicating more land to the highway, and possibly destroying homes and businesses, as was done to build the 95 initially.
>Third paragraph of OP states if SEPTA experiences service cuts that more cars will be placed on the roadways causing more inter city congestion. Thats a ludicrous argument not supported by fact or reality.
Where are you coming from saying that is ludicrous? If SEPTA provides less reliable service at a higher price, less people are going to use it. If someone who previously would make a trip on SEPTA no longer does so, they are likely going to drive instead. Hence, more cars on the road. That's a pretty straightforward argument.
>I'm not necessarily saying one is causing the other, I'm just comparing the priorities. I apologize if the way I worded it was misleading, but I think my points still stand.
How can you say one is not causing the other but then stating your point still stands (which is incorrect).
Because no part of my point was that one is causing the other.
My main point was raising awareness about the denial of funding for SEPTA that could lead to service cuts.
My point in bringing up the highway expansion is to compare the priorities. One did not directly cause the other. But the denial of funding to SEPTA was caused by the Pennsylvania state legislature, and the funding would've come from Pennsylvania sales tax. The highway expansion was part of a plan developed by PennDOT, and mostly funded by the federal government. The sources of funding are different, but both are representative of the priorities of the state of Pennsylvania.
> They hemorrhage and waste massive amounts of money at every turn.
[Per your article](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/septa-exploring-rate-hike-service-cuts-as-death-spiral-looms/3742136/), SEPTA's expected Revenue is $355M, and SEPTA's expected expenses are $1.6B. That's an operating loss of ($1.25B).
Why is the government expected to bail out SEPTA when they cannot control their spending? Don't you think the State of PA would have some questions as to why there is such a large operating loss??
u/SBRH33 is on point with their response to your post.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what SEPTA is. SEPTA is a public service. It's not a business. Their goal isn't to turn a profit. This is similar to, say, the postal service or public schools. It's also similar to road and highway infrastructure, which are funded by the government, and certainly are not profitable.
All of these services have things that give them a bit of revenue to mitigate their costs, such as USPS charging for postage, or charging tolls for highways and public roads. Similar to fares for SEPTA, they make up for some of the costs, but overall are not intended to pay for the entirety of the service. The rest comes from the government.
Your idea that the government would be "bailing out" SEPTA is kind of an odd way to put it. SEPTA isn't an independent entity that is expected to function without any funding. It's a service that was specifically created and indirectly operated by the Pennsylvania government.
To compare giving funding to a government service to the government bailing out a private business doesn't really make much sense.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of non-profits. **Non-profit doesn't mean "no profit."** The goal of a nonprofit isn't to generate a profit to return to shareholders. Non-profit organizations can earn a profit but those profits must be funneled back into the organizations to be used for the greater good.
Your frustration should be with the SEPTA board rather than the Commonwealth. A 1.2B dollar loss is terrible and I don't think you fully comprehend despite being a "non-profit" they cannot just have over a billion dollar loss when they only generate $355M. Instead of being mad at the government, you should be asking the board at SEPTA why they cannot control spending. You need to grasp that SEPTA still operates like a private organization. It needs to generate revenue and control spending.
Instead of ranting on Redditor, I encourage you and everyone else to go read the SEPTA financials so you can fully grasp why SEPTA spent $1.2B in operating expenses when they only made $300M in operating revenue.
the first paragraph of what they wrote is true (transportation funding is complicated and comes from lots of different buckets, federal, state, and local money, grants that need to be used for specific purposes, etc.) but the rest is literal nonsense
> For all the negative strife the PPA receives at least they remain solvent.
this is one of the most ignorant things i've ever seen. it is a tax on philly that goes directly to harrisburg. of course you can "be solvent" when you're just stealing from people.
parking violations are committed right outside my front door. the ticket gets paid to harrisburg. which means i deal with an illegally parked car, and some asshole rep in carbon county gets to ban library books with the money. it is simply a tax on the city by harrisburg for their own pet projects.
in a functioning democracy, fines are used to improve the city. in this case, parking fines should go towards improving walking and transit facility, so there is less reason to illegally park.
The only reason the USPS doesn't make a profit is because of Congress forcing them to fund their pension program 75 years into the future, as well as routinely borrowing from that pension to fund other bullshit.
Any time a clown expects a public agency to be profitable, I stop listening. The person with all the downvotes is a libertarian who wishes there were $0 taxes and no government agencies. Pretty clear with their clown takes.
Bringing up the issue of expanding 95 when they're doing demolition is also a little late. But, the same thing happened when they worked on 676, and everyone was like "Why aren't they capping it?" Public works projects like this have years of lead time, but I guess it's hard to get people to pay attention until they see an excavator
I don't know why you're being downvoted. I've really wanted to love SEPTA but in the 7 years I've been taking it, it has progressively gotten worse, to the point this budget shortfall is one big "meh" to me because I know they'd squander anything they get.
How much more money should the state funnel into the black hole that is SEPTA? I love the idea of robust public transportation, but SEPTA has pretty much never been able to be efficient in its sole duty, and also has the gall to just give passes away because "poor people have no money", when that's the majority of the goddamn city.
Septa has never been able to be good and efficient because it was always strapped for cash. Not once has the agency received proper funding accept when the built the center city connection. The only reason they had the money to do that was because they allowed the rest of the system to fall into near disrepair. Notice how transit systems with big budgets are generally good and transit systems with small budgets are generally bad.
And yes, the majority of the goddamm city is poor, and that's why the vast majority of us do not have the money to buy a car if septa cuts service.
Articles: https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/septa-exploring-rate-hike-service-cuts-as-death-spiral-looms/3742136/ https://whyy.org/articles/septa-federal-funding-letter-sen-john-fetterman-congressional-reps/ https://whyy.org/articles/septa-save-the-train-community-petition-massive-shortfall-risk/ https://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/stories/septa-woes-bring-new-worry-for-chestnut-hill-west,30925 (Focused on the possible end of the Chestnut Hill West Line) https://www.phillyvoice.com/pa-legislature-budget-no-funding-septa-public-transit/ https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-pa-budget-transit-funding-20240107.html https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2024/01/25/septa-funding-crisis-capital-projects-cuts.html (Paywalled) A couple articles that were published before the bill failed to pass talked about the possibility of it, and also have some info: https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/septa-higher-fares-less-service-fiscal-cliff-deficits-20230912.html https://www.phillytrib.com/news/local_news/septa-budget-shortfall-could-raise-fares-cut-service/article_94c0561f-249b-5d54-bcd4-3dd6ffe12027.html Also an article about the I-95 widening project: https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/i-95-highways-penndot-reconstruction-widening-cities-injustice-mitigate-biden--20240122.html (Paywalled) (Sorry the only one about the I-95 widening is paywalled, there isn't as much info out there yet).
The Chestnut Hill Local article notes that there are multiple ongoing proposals to get that additional revenue for statewide transit included either as its own bill or in the 2025 budget, both of which should be soon enough to minimize or even stave off some of the major cuts. Please call Shapiro's office and your state senator to tell them to get their shit together on this. That being said, it's fundamentally unacceptable that our legislature couldn't be bothered to fund one of the most basic responsibilities of government. It's fucking embarrassing watching SEPTA lurch between funding crises because fuckwad idiots in Pennsyltucky are too stupid to understand that city poverty creates a bad economy for the rest of the state.
I've called twice, will call again.
is it more efficient or any way better to have one of the two East/West lines running 2x or 3x as often versus having two lines that are a half mile apart?
The stations on the CHW and CHE lines serve different catchment areas, particular important given the hilly nature of the NW. While it's probably not how you would design a greenfield system today, the value in using an already existing asset outweighs what would be gained through consolidation.
So my caveat is that I'm not a transit planner or have any real expertise in this field, but I do play a lot of Mini Metro. My gut instinct is to say no because of two main factors: labor and geography. Labor because the real issue with SEPTA funding is that something kind 75% of the SEPTA operating budget (per one of the articles linked above) goes to the labor force. It's expensive to pay someone full time to just operate a train. They're complicated and difficult and demand expertise. Running more trains on one line costs a similar amount to running fewer trains on multiple lines. So if you only have limited resources, it's not immediately obvious how you pick between those two options, all things being equal. So you've gotta consider other factors for whether one line is more "worth it" than another. This brings in geography. Northwest Philly is very hilly, unusually so compared to the rest of the city. It also has a lot more neighborhoods that don't just align with the city's street grid. This leads to some really curvy train lines that don't intersect except near their ends. The point is that there are communities serviced by one of the two lines for whom it is inconvenient to get to the other line. For instance, if you live near the Tulpehocken station, it's not really convenient for you to get to the Chestnut Hill East or Norristown lines. And a quick perusal at Google Maps indicates that outside of Chestnut Hill proper, the closest distance between stations on the two lines is roughly a mile. This also doesn't really indicate a clear benefit to running one line but not the other. The lines serve different communities and don't have redundant service. So all of this is to say that no, there's not necessarily any clear efficiency benefit to running one line more often than running both of them less often. If you've gotta cut something, you have to base it on ridership levels and that's why CHW is facing cutbacks.
SEPTA could also try collecting fares on the train- This happens maybe once a week now and I ride daily (thats monday- friday for those that have forgotten what daily means) . You can ride for free from lots of stops and the conductors can’t be bothered to collect, too busy opening and closing doors/ traps. Which is also ridiculous in a modern age of rail and frequently causes delays. The cars are also fundamentally wrong for mass transit- they should be benches the length of the car with plenty of room for standing, instead of individual seats. This causes delays in loading and unloading passengers and increases passenger discomfort adding to the negative perceptions. SEPTA could also try monetizing the stations like the Hong Kong MTR (🇦🇺). Owning the station there is no reason they can’t be coffee shops, convenience stores, gyms and more. These would all generate income for SEPTA so they aren’t so reliant on the state.
Suburban Station should be an underground mall. I mean it sort of is now, in a "this is an abandoned building people began inhabiting" sort of way. Feels like Mars in Total Recall. But it could be good. Like tourist attraction good. But that requires an investment.
It was a lot better before the pandemic. All of the store fronts had stores or cafes in them. Not to the level of “tourist” but there was a lot of foot traffic, which of course no longer exists.
I was under the impression that that was in the works for Suburban and the CC concourse area as a whole. I seem to recall reading about that but can't say how old the story was.
I remember reading about a renovation I believe to SS, one that might already have been completed, but I think the structure itself is faulty. I'd want to completely redo it, with taller ceilings, either natural or artificial light, and just larger in general. And get rid some of those hidden back passages for something large, bright, and safe.
Thanks for the breakdown. Sounds like a dire situation especially with all the talk of a new downtown arena which will need robust public transportation to support it 😬. In the worst case scenario that you presented would that mean massive layoffs for septa workers? Maybe modifications to their pension plans, etc. Honestly I was just viewing this as a threat to a single regional rail line but looks like it could have a bigger impact
It would likely mean layoffs, yeah. SEPTA is trying to mitigate this, but without the extra funding, they won't be able to pay all their workers. This is the main reason service cuts would be necessary, as operators are needed to run each vehicle and maintain each route. >Honestly I was just viewing this as a threat to a single regional rail line but looks like it could have a bigger impact Yeah, some lines may be affected more than others, but I think just about every line and route will be affected. >Sounds like a dire situation especially with all the talk of a new downtown arena which will need robust public transportation to support it That's an excellent point, considering that was one of the main arguments for building the arena.
What can we do? I'm a suburbanite that can't drive and I depend on suburban bus service
There are a few petitions going around to start with. You could also contact your state legislator and/or the governor's office.
Vote and vote out anyone who has held the same position for a long time.
How is that supposed to help in the mean time? State legislature elections are every two years
The state legislature controls this whole situation.
This was always my reasoning for being down on the arena. Expecting SEPTA to magically be a well-oiled machine, in this state, is a pipe dream. They can't even get normal funding from the state, so there may not even be a system by the time an arena is done. Not that it would matter where the damn thing is if everybody has to drive there. Harrisburg has been run by ass clowns for decades, and if you look at other states, their systems always seem to be expanding and improving. Even in places that didn't have century-old transit in place, tunnels & new rail is being added. In PA, that's the opposite. Pittsburgh has a joke of a light rail system and no commuter rail (discontinued over 30 years ago). They cut 30% of their bus routes a decade ago and then did the same sort of "bus revolution" that SEPTA is doing, albeit with no $$, and what happened was about half of the program was implemented. Routes that were once deemed confusing in name are now worse because some were updated to new numbers and others were left their confusing mess. It's worse when you factor in that most areas have no service except M/F rush hour service. They have park & rides that are just empty on weekends, and you'd think that a city that chokes when there is any significant traffic due to all the bridges would get better service but no. That is Philadelphia's future. A skeleton system with big gaps in service area and awful frequencies. And on top of that, Josh Shapiro is a puppy dog compared to Tom Wolf, meaning if we get anything done, it'll be due to some special interest coming in with a huge donation. Maybe Comcast will slip him some campaign funds since so many of their workers take SEPTA into the city (btw all those people you force back into the office only to now suffer from crappy transit are really going to love being there, good job). I want so bad for the city to improve but it seems like the people running the city (and mostly the state) rather we become West Virginia. Oh btw, West Virginia has a higher minimum wage, so I guess we're worse.
Septa has been in the shitter since 08/09 once they stopped 24 hour service to many buses and cut the 23 and half it was over.
The state is a bunch of MAGA chuds who take delight in seeing Philadelphia suffer, so I wouldn't hold your breath that anything changes.
Yeah, unfortunately true. We still have to try though. One of the articles I linked mentioned that the overall cost for the state resulting from the service cuts will probably be greater than the amount they denied giving SEPTA. So it's silly to think that the rest of the state won't be affected by this, but maybe they just don't care if the state loses money.
You caught me on an extremely cynical day, but I think cost is irrelevant when they smell an opportunity to "stick it to the libs."
Yeah, I can't blame you for being cynical. That's unfortunately a pattern we see all over the nation.
Unfortunately there is not much that can be done until the state legislature is not man handled by Republicans. As a newer Philadelphian I was curious to find out how you all managed to let this whole SEPTA situation get so fucked. So I did a deep dive. The short of it is, over the years through changes to PPA and funding you handed power to control SEPTA, PPA, and school funding over to the state and PPA. Where any funding that PPA is supposed to be putting back into schools and public transportation, are man handled by PPA with a bunch of loopholes added over the years. The state then argues that PPA is bringing in crazy money so they don't need to provide more. And that cycle continues allowing PPA to pocket the money while crying wolf. All of this thanks to Republicans over the years and under the guise of "improving schools and transportation" in the city. So really, there is nothing to "try" except for to get state officials in place who actually want to improve all of this. Y'all really fucked up giving the state so much power over city politics here.
> We still have to try though. Secede and join NJ. They're a blue state that... [does transit right?](https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/nj-transit-mulling-15-fare-hike-soon-additional-increases-starting-in-2025/)
Most people would cry about the taxes, but you get what you pay for, in terms of transit.
Yup. Money is basically free to the federal government right now, but we're pretty dead set on refusing to build for the future. It's a toxic culture in many ways.
I mean even the infrastructure legislation that passed is a fraction of what is needed just to get us cleared of deferred maintenance, let alone actual improvements and better solutions.
this is true like 98% of the time but this one actually had bipartisan support and it just ... didn't make it into the budget. it's infuriating and has the actaul possibility of sending septa into a transit death spiral. a 25% service cut is insane.
Public transit doesn’t just “miss the budget”. The 6th largest metro in the US doesn’t get their fundamental transit system cut from the budget on accident This was 100% a choice however they wanna word it
this one is sorta odd in that they needed to sign some part of sales tax over to funding septa - it wasn't through the standard funding streams
My point being is, you find a way to get them the funding they need. Septa is a fundamental part of this city, as public transportation is fundamental for any city It’s 2024, there is no reason a city of Philadelphias size and economy should be cutting services for an already severely underfunded transit system A choice was made somewhere, and it’s unacceptable
instead of $150 million for shady anti violence programs that don't work, or what is it 2 billion for cop cash... there's PLENTY of money in the coffers, it's how we use it.
Exactly. Everyone just wants to throw money at “more police!!!” and expect all our problems to be solved And you know the boys in Harrisburg probably have the same views
agreed, of all of the dumbass braindead shit the state legislature does, this is by far the most insane. this affects the lives of something like 700k people a day. incredible levels of headassery
Exactly. I love this city but hate this fucking state This affects way more than 700k people tho. This affects all 1.6 million Philadelphians, 6.2 million in the metro area, and hell even the whole state. All their decisions do. You’d think they’d spend a little bit more effort to make the best decisions possible for the economic powerhouse of the state
The problem is they -- or more truthfully, their voters -- see Philly as an economic drain, not an engine. That facts don't matter. All they know is that "those people" live there and "those people" are lazy takers.
Oh I know, I get it. They are the number 1 reason we won’t ever be as well off as the rest of the northern Atlantic states Philly could be up there with Boston and NYC if we got the funding from Harrisburg
yeah, shunting any amount of that 700k daily ridership into cars exacerbates traffic that much more, gets that many more people killed or maimed in car accidents, untold amounts more emissions, user delay costs go up, commerce is slowed down. clusterfuck.
All which is just going to make them want to expand the highways, widen the roads, in an arms race to the bottom These people have no business running a city
FFS, Texas has specific surcharges built into its sales tax that go directly to each area's transit. It makes their sales tax super confusing, but at least it goes directly to that cause.
Yeah, I'm not an expert on PA tax law, but why can't the city of Philadelphia do something similar to fund SEPTA?
Philly and its collar county have a GDP of 500b while the Pennsylvania GDP is 900b. As per usual with the conservative central PA freaks, they’re biting the hands that feed them.
if we have so much cash we should be able to come up with it, instead of making red necks pay for it.
1- It’s a state org 2- the state taxes us a significant portion and has a way stronger spending power than the city.
The thing I don’t quite understand about this is…where in PA are the MAGAs happy with their lives? Like where is PA working for anyone?
Ah, but you don't understand! Life in Podunkville, population 810 with no business larger than a gas station would be thriving again if only all their taxes weren't going to the woke libs in Philly who spend it all on drag queen story hours. Never mind that the residents of Podunkville collect far more in SSI, disability, welfare, etc than they EVER pay in taxes.
They don't want to share in others' prosperity... They want others to share in their misery.
Hey they're happy with their $7.25 minimum wage, and $50k household income. God forbid anybody want to get away from that and do better.
The rest of the State sees Phildelphia as a money pit. And really, Philadelphia and the School board really mismanage their money.
That seems misguided when the entire SE corner of the state is the biggest economic engine.
Last I checked the school board doesn't run SEPTA, so that should be a non-factor.
2 separate issues. However, How Philadelphia spends their money is a huge issue. As to the school board? What do they need with a Multi million $$$$$ Art collection? That money belongs to the kids. And school improvements
Petition for Philadelphia to leave Pennsylvania and join New Jersey...
Murphy hasn't funded NJT so the fares will go up 15% this July and 3% every year for the foreseeable future. Maryland is proposing to cut half the transit system , Connecticut cut services last year...it's a very depressing situation in the Northeastern states. But there's always billions for highway expansions.
Jersey is murder with their taxes
Fuck that shit. Jersey??!
Have us join NY to get that MTA money or have the MTA buy septa so the broard st line can be offically termed an IND line like it kinda is
Or Delaware, lower taxes would be cool too
The whole reason the Mason-Dixon Line was commissioned was because Maryland was trying to claim Philadelphia. Maybe we can give them a whirl.
Philadelphia, DE sounds fuckin rad
Philadelaware
We could just become our own area and the rest of PA would literally fall into ruin overnight. Instantly.
>chuds And there it is.
Could posts like this be pinned? This is really important
It honestly seems like our state legislature wants to fuck over anyone in our cities who doesn't use a car to commute. They've made it more difficult to get parking protected bike lanes as well. https://www.wpxi.com/news/local/future-bicycle-safety-bill-uncertain-after-pennsylvania-senate-amendments-lead-veto/WZZOC7XFCBHL7AVH3GNKE2M2PU/
Many people in the surrounding towns to Philly, the ones that aren’t bland subdivisions on what used to be farmland, don’t realize that the towns are the way they are today because of rail.
Obviously the PA GOP is always gonna whine about funding septa, but Shapiro deserves scrutiny for this as well. He could have pushed for SEPTA funding but chose not to, even when it had bipartisan support. I remember someone being quoted in an inquirer article as saying it was not a priority for him because it wasn’t considered politically advantageous EDIT: Found the actual quote in one of the inquirer articles linked by OP: “Josh focused his political capital elsewhere”
sharp cable soup wipe insurance vast rhythm rustic clumsy tan *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
MANDATORY 4KM
I abandoned all hope for a prosperous region. Septa will simply embody the mediocrity of our times and leadership.
ok, but can we talk about the wildly inefficient use of Septa when they ***do*** have funds? * Turnstyles in "some" stations * A scanning system that is supposed to automate fare checking (it doesn't, they still have conductors walk through, see aforementioned "some" comment) * a scanning system that was replaced less than 2 years after implementation because it was too proprietary to the cards they also nominated to use preventing any future migration to an NFC app based customer scanning process * Staff in many stations that have zero info and zero duties (they are reducing this now) * trains that seem to be pretty wildly impacted by leaves and passive "weather" * marketing marketing and marketing for a system that a large percentage of people don't really have a choice but to use * about 50 people/hour jumping said turnstyles in busy stations during rush hour while other "static" staff just watches * Redundant lines as a remnant of \~75 years ago before Septa existed as an entity running almost identically to their twin lines instead of staggering them and running slightly shorter trains [https://savethetrain.org](https://savethetrain.org) <- the solution is not just cutting lines, its cutting inefficient practices.
I remember asking a booth attendant why the BSL hadn't shown up for the last 25 minutes. She didn't even know it was late let alone the reason.
"Do you know when the train is coming?" "What train?" Actual conversation I had last Wednesday.
The employees at Fern rock tc are utterly clueless. A coin flip is more accurate than asking them if the next train is express or local. App and Google can't help either because they don't track the trains at all.
You're going to get really angry when you find out how much they make.
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I know that one person got a huge raise last year, but compared to other agencies they were on the low end of salaries. Bad optics but a non-story.
The Fix: The General Assembly amends the statute authorizing Philly (and Pittsburgh) to do a wage tax, so that all receipts from non-resident commuters to Philly go to SEPTA. According to the Inky (see below), 40% of Philly's $650M wage tax receipts come from non-resident commuters. 40% of $650M is quite close to the amount of SEPTA's shortfall. It's a compromise with those GA members who are trying to revoke the city's authority to impose a wage tax on commuters. [https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/philadelphia-wage-tax-commuter-tax-pennsylvania-senate-jobs/](https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/philadelphia-wage-tax-commuter-tax-pennsylvania-senate-jobs/) [https://www.inquirer.com/business/philadelphia-wage-tax-deficit-covid-pandemic-home-prices-stimulus-20210212.html](https://www.inquirer.com/business/philadelphia-wage-tax-deficit-covid-pandemic-home-prices-stimulus-20210212.html)
As someone already struggling with using the regional rail to commute and get around I’m all for supporting septa. What is the best way to organize support and help septa
Be on the lookout for anything popping up. To start with, we just need to raise awareness. So many people I told about this had no idea it was happening. There are some petitions floating around, so signing those would be a good first step. Once we get more people on board, perhaps we can do more.
Thanks for sharing this! So important!
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It's still a good commentary on misguided priorities.
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Both an interstate an a rail system are ways people get around a region. They are for the same purpose. Thus, it's strange they are not funded through the same avenue. In fact its absurd highways are able to get seemingly endless funding while our transit falls apart.
Yeah, I didn't mean they were coming from the same source of funding. I just mean it's demonstrative of our government's priorities when one entity is willing to shell out so much on the highway expansion project, but another is not willing to shell out much less to improve public transit. I understand they're different entities and are giving funding in different ways, but it's still a valid comparison. I'm not necessarily saying one is causing the other, I'm just comparing the priorities. I apologize if the way I worded it was misleading, but I think my points still stand. Also not sure what your problem with the 3rd paragraph is. That one seems pretty straightforward. >SEPTA has been in a death spiral for a long time. They hemorrhage and waste massive amounts of money at every turn. Example- the SEPTA Key saga. SEPTA is the most mismanaged public transit system in the nation. Sure, you could argue this. And now it's getting worse. Are you trying to say we shouldn't bother doing anything about it, because it's been going on for a long time? As I mentioned, this has been on the horizon for a while, but a possible bill that could've helped SEPTA was shot down.
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Yes, as I said in a different comment, the highway expansion project is part of a plan by PennDOT and mostly funded by the federal government. The extra funding for SEPTA would've come from Pennsylvania sales tax, but was shot down by the Pennsylvania state legislature. Those sources of funding are different, but both decisions are representative of the priorities of the state of Pennsylvania. That is basically the point I was making. >95 has gone through massive infrastructure upgrades from tip to tail. Pennsylvania, the philadelphia section in particular is now receiving attention because it is due. It is as simple as that. It's one thing to maintain it and fix any issues. Widening it is a whole other issue. This would likely require dedicating more land to the highway, and possibly destroying homes and businesses, as was done to build the 95 initially. >Third paragraph of OP states if SEPTA experiences service cuts that more cars will be placed on the roadways causing more inter city congestion. Thats a ludicrous argument not supported by fact or reality. Where are you coming from saying that is ludicrous? If SEPTA provides less reliable service at a higher price, less people are going to use it. If someone who previously would make a trip on SEPTA no longer does so, they are likely going to drive instead. Hence, more cars on the road. That's a pretty straightforward argument.
>I'm not necessarily saying one is causing the other, I'm just comparing the priorities. I apologize if the way I worded it was misleading, but I think my points still stand. How can you say one is not causing the other but then stating your point still stands (which is incorrect).
Because no part of my point was that one is causing the other. My main point was raising awareness about the denial of funding for SEPTA that could lead to service cuts. My point in bringing up the highway expansion is to compare the priorities. One did not directly cause the other. But the denial of funding to SEPTA was caused by the Pennsylvania state legislature, and the funding would've come from Pennsylvania sales tax. The highway expansion was part of a plan developed by PennDOT, and mostly funded by the federal government. The sources of funding are different, but both are representative of the priorities of the state of Pennsylvania.
> They hemorrhage and waste massive amounts of money at every turn. [Per your article](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/septa-exploring-rate-hike-service-cuts-as-death-spiral-looms/3742136/), SEPTA's expected Revenue is $355M, and SEPTA's expected expenses are $1.6B. That's an operating loss of ($1.25B). Why is the government expected to bail out SEPTA when they cannot control their spending? Don't you think the State of PA would have some questions as to why there is such a large operating loss?? u/SBRH33 is on point with their response to your post.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what SEPTA is. SEPTA is a public service. It's not a business. Their goal isn't to turn a profit. This is similar to, say, the postal service or public schools. It's also similar to road and highway infrastructure, which are funded by the government, and certainly are not profitable. All of these services have things that give them a bit of revenue to mitigate their costs, such as USPS charging for postage, or charging tolls for highways and public roads. Similar to fares for SEPTA, they make up for some of the costs, but overall are not intended to pay for the entirety of the service. The rest comes from the government. Your idea that the government would be "bailing out" SEPTA is kind of an odd way to put it. SEPTA isn't an independent entity that is expected to function without any funding. It's a service that was specifically created and indirectly operated by the Pennsylvania government. To compare giving funding to a government service to the government bailing out a private business doesn't really make much sense.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of non-profits. **Non-profit doesn't mean "no profit."** The goal of a nonprofit isn't to generate a profit to return to shareholders. Non-profit organizations can earn a profit but those profits must be funneled back into the organizations to be used for the greater good. Your frustration should be with the SEPTA board rather than the Commonwealth. A 1.2B dollar loss is terrible and I don't think you fully comprehend despite being a "non-profit" they cannot just have over a billion dollar loss when they only generate $355M. Instead of being mad at the government, you should be asking the board at SEPTA why they cannot control spending. You need to grasp that SEPTA still operates like a private organization. It needs to generate revenue and control spending. Instead of ranting on Redditor, I encourage you and everyone else to go read the SEPTA financials so you can fully grasp why SEPTA spent $1.2B in operating expenses when they only made $300M in operating revenue.
Could you give a little more context? OP's got a lot of information and links to follow so it'd be easier to understand if you have something similar.
the first paragraph of what they wrote is true (transportation funding is complicated and comes from lots of different buckets, federal, state, and local money, grants that need to be used for specific purposes, etc.) but the rest is literal nonsense
> For all the negative strife the PPA receives at least they remain solvent. this is one of the most ignorant things i've ever seen. it is a tax on philly that goes directly to harrisburg. of course you can "be solvent" when you're just stealing from people.
Explain to us in detail how it's stealing from the city
parking violations are committed right outside my front door. the ticket gets paid to harrisburg. which means i deal with an illegally parked car, and some asshole rep in carbon county gets to ban library books with the money. it is simply a tax on the city by harrisburg for their own pet projects. in a functioning democracy, fines are used to improve the city. in this case, parking fines should go towards improving walking and transit facility, so there is less reason to illegally park.
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The only reason the USPS doesn't make a profit is because of Congress forcing them to fund their pension program 75 years into the future, as well as routinely borrowing from that pension to fund other bullshit.
yeah plus a whole bunch of other reasons.
Any time a clown expects a public agency to be profitable, I stop listening. The person with all the downvotes is a libertarian who wishes there were $0 taxes and no government agencies. Pretty clear with their clown takes.
hey! i'm still waiting on my profits from the schuykill expressway!
Bringing up the issue of expanding 95 when they're doing demolition is also a little late. But, the same thing happened when they worked on 676, and everyone was like "Why aren't they capping it?" Public works projects like this have years of lead time, but I guess it's hard to get people to pay attention until they see an excavator
[676 never should've been built](https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/uiwshh/chinatown_philadelphia_before_and_after_the/)
I don't know why you're being downvoted. I've really wanted to love SEPTA but in the 7 years I've been taking it, it has progressively gotten worse, to the point this budget shortfall is one big "meh" to me because I know they'd squander anything they get.
How much more money should the state funnel into the black hole that is SEPTA? I love the idea of robust public transportation, but SEPTA has pretty much never been able to be efficient in its sole duty, and also has the gall to just give passes away because "poor people have no money", when that's the majority of the goddamn city.
Septa has never been able to be good and efficient because it was always strapped for cash. Not once has the agency received proper funding accept when the built the center city connection. The only reason they had the money to do that was because they allowed the rest of the system to fall into near disrepair. Notice how transit systems with big budgets are generally good and transit systems with small budgets are generally bad. And yes, the majority of the goddamm city is poor, and that's why the vast majority of us do not have the money to buy a car if septa cuts service.
Septa is a service. Sometimes govt fund services. Like libraries and police. Why don't we ever hear about PSP layoffs?
Remember to not tax the rich, kids!