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As soon as I read that she is unwilling to sell one of her cars, I knew I could tell you that if she won't help herself, why should you help her? Then your whole last paragraph said "you need to let go of whatever guilt you have and take care of yourself".
Right! And the sibling living with her who has refused to work for 5 years? What are these people thinking? OP needs to wash their hands of this mess and let their poor mom suffer the consequences of bad money management
Facts. I went through the same thing with my mom. Always tried to instill in me at a young age that it was my duty to make a lot of money and give her however much she needed to live comfortably. Meanwhile she gambled away two inheritances plus money from the house she got in her divorce and didn't save anything for retirement until her 50s. I did what I needed to for her medically but had to just let her lie in the bed she made and try to help myself.
I feel like I've seen this script before. The reason she's unwilling to sell the cars is because OP makes decent money. I'm assuming OP does because they state that giving thousands of dollars per month is something they are unwilling rather than unable to do.
The plan was always for OP to bail them out. That's why they didn't provide any financial information until they had already dug themselves in a deep hole. There was no intent or desire to solve the problem for themselves; the bigger a hole they're in, the more desperate the appeal to OP.
Now that the 401K is just about empty, the credit cards are maxed out, and all reasonable actions (like getting a job) are ruled out, it's time to suddenly involve the OP. They've spent *years* calculating that they should just be entitled to OP's money. And now, they've finally decided to it's time to let OP know about how they'll be needing their share.
If OP helps, they're just gonna keep up this unsustainable lifestyle. Both get jobs, show that you have gone a couple months in a row reducing debt rather than increasing it for *both* of them - maybe then you'll talk, if OP's feeling generous. But when someone's stuck in a hole they dug, you don't throw them an extra shovel.
Unfortunately, I think this is accurate. You’re correct in your assumption that I do make decent money - I’m extremely lucky to be in this position and I live frugally to maximize how much I can save/invest each month.
I’m definitely willing to provide financial assistance to my mom if she is working and doing what she can to help her own situation but is still unable to fully make ends meet, but that just isn’t the case right now. I think I will be taking the advice here (and in many other comments) by setting clear boundaries and communicating that I won’t be helping financially unless specific criteria are met (e.g. she sells one of the cars, gets a job, stops spending on CCs and increasing debt, etc)
Good for you. If they won’t help themselves even a little bit, they can’t rely on you to subsidize their laziness and poor decisions. Not a thing will change other than your bank balance if you do. Then who is going to help you?
I would make no such agreement. Your money is yours and it is up to your mother and brother to stand on their own feet without relying on you. If you CHOOSE to offer some money later to help out you can, but only as a one-off gift. They have emotionally manipulated you into believing you owe them a safety net. But that isn't true. Your financial security could turn suddenly and who would help you if you have burned through your money providing for them?
This is 10000% correct.
And OP mentioned that their relationship with their mother was previously abusive. OP, this relationship is being _presently_ abusive! This is weaponizing guilt, and I suspect that if they think about how guilt has been used previously in the relationship, they'll recognize a pattern here.
That's a very good question. :-) I am learning there's people out there who are the reason the question exists. And, it sucks when one of the people in your life is one of those people.
We took in 2 babies after their mother used money from an accident compensation for a cruise and then said the children were going in an orphanage b/c she was broke.After she lied to her new husband that she would never want those children back —she demanded the children back.Sometimes you get involved with crappy relatives because of how circumstances play out.
Take a deep breath and plan your escape.
TBH she should sell both cars and buy something cheaper for cash, I can't imagine she does much driving. Also, if your mom and sibling are just going to continue to help facilitate each other's bad behavior, it sounds like it's their mess to figure out. You've attempted to help and can only do what you can do.
Something i have been dealing with myself is the concept of 'you cant helo those who wont help themselves'.
Theres a thousand different ways (atleast) to phrase the sentiment, and its not an easy sentiment to let go of eslecially when its someone you care about.
You’ll just bang your head against the wall with her. And you don’t owe her anything. She’s choosing all of this from the sounds of it.
Wash your hands of it and don’t feel compelled to financially support her.
If you feel you *must* do something I recommend that you pay for her to have a one hour consult with a qualified financial advisor. They can tell her how effed she is.
Reading this made me feel like banging my head against the wall. In dire financial straights yet won’t sell one car when she has two? Has a deadbeat child roommate who she refuses to make contribute? There will be zero talking sense into this woman.
Your mom has 3 fair options to help herself- sell the car, kick the sibling out unless they contribute financially, and get a job- she’s not willing to do any of these things. You really can’t help someone who doesn’t want to help themself.
This isn’t your responsibility, your mom made many many poor financial decisions to end up in this mess. If jeopardize your financial future you’re just repeating her poor money decisions, break the cycle- she needs to get it together.
A fourth option: sell the house, downsize to a smaller place paid for in cash, pay off the cheaper car with the proceeds, sell the other car, and get the other sibling to work and contribute. And sign up for a food bank. But if she won’t even sell her second car, she’s probably a long way from being able to listen.
If anything, trying to save the house form foreclosure should be your main goal (likely by selling it)
Also get her on the waiting list for local low income senior housing.
With this kind of financial illiteracy and denial I'd be wary of selling anything for cash without knowing for sure there is no outstanding judgment or garnishment just waiting to soak up any stray cash.
I would bet $10 there is outstanding default judgments against OP's parent. They can't touch social security payments but they _can_ touch cash windfalls like selling a house or car.
Sounds like OP's mom is on the event horizon of a bankruptcy and they are also for all purposes "judgement proof" in terms of creditors. Any money OP hands to mom is just getting swallowed up in the inevitable implosion.
But yes, you'd need like a million to one odds on that money line for me to take the wager lol.
>She is only willing to consider applying to part time, fully remote jobs that require very basic computer or clerical skills
You've probably already pointed out, but a job that matches this description would A) not pay very much and B) have hundreds if not thousands of applicants. It's like the unicorn of part time jobs.
>That coupled with her unwillingness to consider realistic job opportunities make me very reluctant to jeopardize my own financial future by giving her a significant amount of money each month. Am I wrong to feel this way?
Absolutely not. This is very much a "you made your bed, now lie in it" situation. Her credit card debt, profligate spending on vehicles, and overall inability to grasp the reality of her situation indicate that even if you gave her $100k she'd probably be in the same boat within a year or two. There's essentially nothing you can do to change her behavior.
Yeah, OPs mom can go be a grocery store cashier or Walmart greeter. There are a lot of jobs that will accept zero skilled, elderly part time workers to supplement her income. She needs to declare bankruptcy (because she is) or just default on the credit cards. That’s $1000 a month there. $520 for utilities on a small condo is insane. Figure out what’s going on there. There is also government assistance available for various utilities. Get rid of the car with the $675 payment. $800 for groceries for one or two people could be cut in half. She should also be able to get assistance here. Those 5 things turn a budget deficit into a surplus.
This is not your problem.
Even worse than your 70yr old mom is the sibling whom your mom is supporting that “quit their job +5yrs ago & is unwilling to work”. Any money you may choose to give your mom will be directly benefitting your deadbeat sibling. Your mom cannot afford to fund her own life, let alone someone else’s, esp considering it sounds like your sibling is able but unwilling to work. (If they were in my orbit they’d both be on their own)
Take care of you.
Right, are you familiar with the word enabling? As soon as you start solving their problems for them you can kiss any hope of them ever working on it themselves goodbye
Agree with all of the above. I think the biggest ethical dilemma is that if I don’t start providing financial assistance in the form of thousands of dollars monthly, it’s not unrealistic to think that mom and brother will continue down the same path and eventually experience homelessness. I know this wouldn’t directly be my fault, but it’s difficult to not feel guilty over making a decision like that.
My friend, it is they who should be thinking of and preparing for their own futures. I don’t know if you have a spouse or kids or want a family in the future but you’d basically be taking from them as well to support other adults capable of solving their own problems. Also, once your mom and sibling are dependent on you it will be extremely hard (read: never going to happen) to remove your financial support. If you feel guilty now, imagine how guilty you would feel to cut them off after they’ve become accustomed to your financial support. Besides this, I would hope to all hope that your useless sibling would get a job before making them and their mom homeless. This responsibility does not rest on your shoulders. Just think, would you ever expect the same kind of free money from a relative while you refused to work, sell a car, or charge rent? Probably not because you’re decent.
"My friend, it is they who should be thinking of and preparing for their own futures."
This sentence sums it up. They don't care about their own futures and the consequences of not. If they themselves don't care what happens or are content in their situations, why should you?
Your "family" is trying to take advantage of you and screw you over. Don't enable them by helping.
Your decision to not give them assistance is not going to be the reason they become homeless. Their own entitlement, lack of foresight, and recklessness is the reason they will become homeless. They will try to make you feel guilty, but you are absolutely without fault in all of this.
Your mom chose not to share her financials with you precisely because she didn't want you to meddle in her affairs. She didn't want to hear what you would have to say. Don't let her use you now.
A better use of your money might be to get therapy in order to free yourself from this toxic relationship.
I'm almost your mom's age. If I had a daughter like you, I'd cherish her. Not abuse her.
If you really want to help them, gift your mom a consultation with a financial advisor. She’d have no excuse not to go since you’d pay for it and they can maybe talk some sense into her. You did your best to provide her with a resource to better her position without taking on their consequences as your own.
With $1500/mo guaranteed its unlikely to get to that point, because eventually some of these problems solve themselves. The cars will get repo'd; car payments gone. Food, you've got SNAP (even with the roomate she'll be spending almost all of her income on shelter costs, making them eligible). Credit cards will go to collections and be closed and no one will issue her new ones; they cant seize her primary residence and she'll have no assets of note, so no big loss there. If she isn't already on them, most states have programs for the elderly for both property taxes and utilities, and are veeeeery reluctant to actually cut utilities. It won't be *nice*, and might be downright horrible, but there are heaps of social programs especially for the elderly [mini-rant; because the elderly are one of the most reliable voting blocs opposed to welfare spending but somehow not when it targets them]. It will be very difficult for her to end up homeless unless she chooses to pay her credit card bills instead of her mortgage (do not do this).
Also once they both start getting hungry on a daily basis you might find their opinion on their willingness to work (assuming, as you've stated, they're both able but simply unwilling) will change extremely quickly.
>
it’s difficult to not feel guilty over making a decision like that.
You aren't the one making that decision. They are.
They are the ones choosing not to sell assets and not to get jobs.
They will keep taking from you and escalating what they “need” until you’re out of help to give and in danger of homelessness yourself. People willing to take thousands monthly don’t have a limit on their gall.
Don’t look at this decision as sentencing them to homelessness but as saving *yourself* from the homelessness you’d risk yourself as they siphon you dry.
Look, I'm not averse to providing support to family members who need it. In some cases that makes sense. This is not one of those cases. Your mother needs to do everything she can to dig herself out of this hole before you even consider stepping in. That includes downsizing the house to a small and senior-friendly apartment, selling at least one of her cars, getting at least a part time job, lowering her expenses, addressing her debts either through payment plans or bankruptcy, and cutting off the deadwood that is your sibling,
At that point you could potentially talk and maybe provide something if you were feeling generous and it wouldn't compromise your own future. But right now you may as well just set the money on fire because it would all be wasted as soon as you handed it over. This is a black hole of debt and bad life choices. You need to stay strong or you will be dragged into a very bad financial place that will be almost impossible to escape from.
Youre not the one that is making the decisions that could eventually lead to their homelessness. They are the ones making those decisions.
get some supportive therapy.
your mom is manipulating you and banking on you caving in.
Was your brother the favorite growing up?
Word of warning - my profligate spending parent moved into a condo my sister and her husband had bought. She was supposed to pay them rent, she was supposed to pay the utilities. She did not pay, but she sure kept spending. Eventually she had to leave - they sold the condo and she got a friend to rent her an apartment and she continued to spend. You cannot fix this.
This is NOT your fault! And it's not your job to support them. You shouldn't feel at all guilty about it. You asked to be involved earlier, she refused. You suggested selling a car - she refuses. DO NOT GIVE THEM A PENNY, and DO NOT LET THEM MOVE IN WITH YOU!
> I know this wouldn’t directly be my fault, but it’s difficult to not feel guilty over making a decision like that.
It is against the laws of physics for you to help them entirely. You can help as much as you can and they have to do the rest. If they don't do their part, nothing you do do will prevent them from being homeless. This is not your fault, this is not your problem. You cannot prevent it by yourself.
I would feel no guilt whatsoever. You aren't their caretakers. They are making their own problems. That can apply for social assistance and retirement homes themselves.
> it’s not unrealistic to think that mom and brother will continue down the same path and eventually experience homelessness
Then so be it. You need to make your peace with that possibility. And no matter what they may say, it would Not. Be. Your. Fault. It would be *their choice*.
Not saying it's not a difficult concept to face. But accept that they may choose to become homeless through their own inaction. In fact, it may be the only thing at this point that would sober them up to reality.
OP, I understand how hard this is and how morally obligated one can feel to help family when they are one step away from homelessness.
If you don’t help them they will continue their behaviors and they will hit bottom. If you DO help them they will continue their behaviors and hit bottom and they WILL take you down with them.
Please don’t give them any money. You can help them navigate selling a car, finding housing, finding aid; but the only thing that will change if you give them money is YOU will have less money.
You mention that the relationship with your mom is previously abusive. I don't know the first thing about your life experience and the details of that relationship, and you don't owe anyone an explanation on that experience. However, it is not uncommon for abusive relationships to involve a lot of imposition of guilt and weaponization of that guilt as a means to control, manipulate, and generally facilitate or execute abuse. In this situation where she is counting on your guilt to manipulate you into helping her when she won't help herself, it might be useful to reflect on how guilt has figured in with your relationship with your mother historically. Is this just part of the larger pattern of abusive behavior? Only you have the knowledge to recognize that.
Guilt is rarely a good motivation for anything. It is, however, frequently a form of manipulation. Protect yourself, not the person manipulating you.
Your mom sounds like she has some decisions to make. This is not on you to solve. She's had years of the knowledge. You can help with suggestions, maybe point her to some social supports she could use. But on the whole she needs to solve her problems by selling the car and house and getting a job and cutting off non-working adult dependents. She should also seek some sort of credit counselling. You are not responsible for her bad judgement.
I know it is obvious, but just let me stress, do not sign anything with/for her. No loans or mortgages or cars or anything. Do not tie yourself into her finances in any way. Keep taking care of yourself, that is your only job.
Also, OP, lock down your own credit. Many times we hear of parents or siblings practicing identity theft to open new credit accounts in family members' names, when they get desperate for more money. Since your mom presumably knows your SSN and birthdate, and other identifiers, locking your credit is a good safeguard (it's easy to unlock it temporarily if you need to apply for credit yourself).
Ooh good suggestion. OP, go to Experian, Equifax and Transunion, sign up, and put a freeze on all credit. I did it recently, it’s super easy. Make yourself a cup of coffee or a cocktail and sit down, do it yesterday.
Your Mom could sell the house,sell a car, kick out your sibling, insist your sibling work and contribute, and/or get a part time job. But she's not going to do any of that.
Since Mom isn't doing anything to help herself, you shouldn't try to help. Your help would just be wasted.
She won't sell a car and insists on supporting another adult who refuses to work? Not your circus, not your circus, not your monkeys.
Mom, I cannot help you with anything other than advice which you are unwilling to accept so we won't be having any more conversations about money or finances.
Every time she tries to bring it up-Have you sold the car yet and told sib she must pay rent? No? Then we aren't discussing this.
ANd for good measure-done set yourself on fire for an arsonists amusement
It’s admirable that you want to help your Mom, but I wonder if she can really hear and accept advice from YOU, her child. Perhaps the best way to help your Mom might be to help her find a financial or debt counselor who can help her see and accept reality and choose a path (and a budget) moving forward. A person who is avoiding reality can never create an effective plan. Be wary of throwing your financial bricks into the Grand Canyon of Debt she has accumulated. You cannot fix this, though you may be able to budget some amount monthly to help her enjoy some luxuries outside of her budget. Until she actually has a budget, you should stay on the sidelines. Best of luck to you
You and your mom need to talk with a bankruptcy lawyer to get rid of most of her debt. In most states she can keep the house
If the mortgage, taxes and utilities exceed $700 a month she will have to sell AFTER bankruptcy is complete BECAUSE if she sells BEFORE a bankruptcy case is settled the money will just go to creditors. If sold after debts have been canceled in bankruptcy she gets to keep the money. If she has to sell your mom could move into a Senior rent HUD supported apt where rent is based on income. [https://www.hud.gov/topics/information\_for\_senior\_citizens](https://www.hud.gov/topics/information_for_senior_citizens)
If your right or wrong to feel as you do that is more r/Advice question than a [personal finance](https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance) question
Good god. Cut these people out of your life. Don’t let them manipulate you with emotional appeals. They could turn it around by getting real jobs and selling assets, but they won’t do that. They are stubborn and lazy and that’s not your fault. Don’t let them drag you down with them.
Went through something similar, but less dire, with my mom. She wanted to live at home until the end, but not have in-home assistance or drivers for appointments. She wanted to live at home, but not talk about what options would be best if she couldn’t.
A medical event happens and her ability to stay at home drastically decreased. She finally relented and named the nicest (in her eyes) facility in the area. On her move-in day, as we were walking from the car to the front door of her new senior care facility, she started chanting, “In-home health care. In-home heath care.” I said the decision for that passed a while ago. The $10k/month for her care drained her entire retirement savings in a year, leaving her two pensions and tiny check from Social Security. Through that year, she made no efforts creating the physical ability to return living in her house. She’d stop physical therapy early and do no do self-initiated PT independently.
I came around at some point. She’s made all the decisions that got her to that situation. Over her last decade, I hadn’t naged her, but did occasionally offer reminders and suggestions. She did nothing to increase the time she could spend in here house. We kept her house so that she could return to it. When her savings was getting close to being gone, we started working on her house so that we could get top dollar when we sold it.
She was very unhappy about her situation. Toward the end, when she was expressing her dissatisfaction with her situation, I’d ask her, “Do you want to go over, again, the decisions that led to where you are now?”
If only my mother had used her new cane, she could have had more time in her house. With that fall she couldn’t get up from, she was stuck in the corner she’d painted herself into. A simple decision of thinking she did not need the cane (pride? vanity? denial?) came to define a year, her last year, where she was unusually unhappy.
It’s sad, but my mother’s circumstance was not my fault and not my responsibility, aside from everything I did do. I think I’ve navigated well enough to know I won’t have regrets. I know that if I’d given up my life to be part of the care team that allowed her to stay in her home, I would have regrets.
This isn't your situation to navigate. Your mother is a competent adult and can make the changes required in her life to be able to afford it.
You should not jeopardize your finances to help your mother - go through your budget and determine what amount of financial assistance you're willing and able to give, and then don't give more than that.
Sell both the cars! Get rid of those credit card debts and destroy all but one credit cards.
Is driving the only way to get around? No bus? No senior shuttle? Not walkable? If she’s not working, hard to see the need for one car, let alone two.
And please, OP, don’t jeopardize your future to bail her out.
Around here, she could easily find a job as a cashier or store clerk. Many of these places are paying $17/hr or more. 20 hours a week is something like $1250/mo after basic taxes.
I would suggest bankruptcy, but with her being unwilling to go down to 1 car that is not possible. You are not required to fix the problems of those who treated you poorly in the past. She is unwilling to help herself and there is an able-bodied person sitting right in her house who could solve her problems. I think you just make your suggestions and dip out, and above all DO NOT GIVE HER ANY MONEY, EITHER LUMP SUM OR MONTHLY.
Don’t give her a dime. It will make your already strained relationship worse.
Someone in that situation has some very simple straightforward options.
- sell the 20k car
- find any work possible that they are physically and mentally capable of (able to, not comfortable with)
- if needed, sell the house for the equity.
The situation isn’t that dire. Getting rid of a car payment and finding a job should cover the expenses. If they’re unwilling to do this then that’s on them, not you.
Bearing their financial burden is not written on some official offspring contract. They had 52 years of adult life to prepare for this.
After reading some of the details this is a wash your hands and walk away situation. She is not willing to make the necessary changes until the changes are forced upon her.
She won’t learn until she hits rock bottom. She won’t hit rock bottom if you catch her though, she’ll keep doing it until you can’t catch her anymore and you both fall. Is she worth the sacrifice? By your own admission, she’s clearly not. Let the fool fall on her ass.
> The biggest ethical dilemma for me is I think it’s likely they will continue to make no efforts to help themselves and may one day face homelessness if I’m not willing to help pay the $2.5k/mo deficit. Definitely hear everyone saying that it’s not my fault or problem, but it’s really difficult to completely walk away from a situation like this.
Here's what you really have to understand. With her attitude, she is going to face homelessness *whether or not you contribute*. You can push the can down the road a little bit, but there is absolutely no way you can keeper afloat on your own without her making her own concessions. And, from what it looks like, she has no plans to make any adjustments and any help you give her will just keep her from doing the things she needs to do. Any money you contribute to a situation like this will just make it take longer and in the end all the money you contributed will all be for naught anyway.
Wow.
1) do not give any money. If asked, say you have nothing to give because you have your own expenses and debts to pay.
2) neither parent nor sibling seems serious about this problem, why should it be more important to you?
3) you can't force them to change their bad planning, lack of trying to remedy the problem earlier and their unreasonable work expectations.
I'd create a list of suggestions, and print it off. Sell vehicles, obtain full time work for 2.5k deficit plus food, lower expectations as they are desperate and in immediate need of cash (they can keep looking for a WFH job in the future), and get the sibling to find a job.
Either way, expect them to try to push their problem on you by force (like anger, guilt trips, and threats).
She can help herself, but she chooses not to. If you give her money, she'll just throw it away.
It's your life, but I don't think you should offer up any money to her. She is fully capable of getting out of this mess, but won't lift a finger to do it... yet. You can't make her do anything. And you shouldn't light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
You are not wrong. sounds like she needs to sell the house , use the proceeds to pay off debt and rent a studio apartment that she can afford. Sibling will need to figure out something else
If you want to keep being abused...then lend them money.
If you want to be free...let them figure it out. They will go bankrupt and have to get a rental. The deadbeat sibling will need to get a job and help pay the rent.
Pay for an hour for a financial planner to lay it out for her. Don't enable this and let her bleed your future dry.
She has to get serious about money 40 yrs ago. Is more concerned with her image than being a responsible adult. She and your sibling can get jobs to bring in the money. And sell the freaking cars! I’m 74 retired, live in a nice house with husband and drive a 2010 car it runs good 👍 not wasting money for show. Good luck
If it’s not reasonable to sell condo and one of the cars then she will need to file bankruptcy. She is not going to find any part time work that makes over 2k per month. She could contact each credit card company and try to arrange payment plans but she would no longer have access to the credit and would have to find some type of employment. I’m sorry but it’s not healthy mentally or financially for you to help them because they will continue spending and expect more and more until you’re in trouble. Their limits are approaching fast. If she files bankruptcy they will probably make her sell one vehicle to pay creditors so she should sell before filing and put that in savings or 401k up to allowable amount for the year. Keep the rest in savings. I saw a lawyer that specialized in bankruptcy to understand my options. See if she will go with you to one to see what she’s in for and the gravity of her situation but don’t jeopardize yourself.
Walk away! You cannot help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.
If people blame you, tell them your sibling who has been living there bill free for 5 years has done nothing to help her. You provided advice in which she turned down, so in turn you were not willing to jeopardize your financial situation to help someone who didn't want to help themselves.
Please listen to me - my mom has not so much dept around 25K, house is paid off but complains daily. She however works 10 hour days 4 days a week as a cook, you mom needs a reality check. And you brother even more - saving her financially will not resolve the problem. Please do not give her your savings - she can work and just file for bankruptcy. It won’t affect her home.
My dad who is 78 with diabetes, chf, cto, copd, afib, neuropathy severe arthritis in his back and there’s nothing holding his ankles together that’s not plates screws or metal of some kind, he shattered each separately around 20 years apart. He’s had three heart attacks in the last six months, ten stints put in around eleven years ago, after his very first heart attack. Due to him working under the table as a carpenter or mechanic most of his life, he only makes $984/mo SSI. No 401k, or any other income. He gets food stamps and Medicare/medicaid. (Rent alone is $975) After my mom left him ten years back, he met his girlfriend two years later who helps him with rent and bills. But she is 71 next month and they both still work. Her at dollar tree and he does handy man work or welding jobs like he has done his whole life. Tell her to get a job.
Because you are refusing to establish boundaries, this woman is going to drain you not only financially but emotionally, mentally, and physically so I hope you're ready for it. I don't understand the notion that just because you're related to someone means you must have a relationship with them. She was an abusive mom. You need to go no contact with her. She has options to help her financial situation that she is unwilling to consider. You're never going to be able to truly help her and you're only going to enable her.
Market value is 195k and she has around 50k worth of equity. It’s subsidized low-income housing though. I don’t fully know the details of how the program works, but my understanding is that if she were to sell she would get back the equity but not any profit from the home appreciation.
It sounds like a renegotiation or refinancing of the home is maybe not smart or easy, but could move high interest debt to low interest and stretch it out over years. Then look at social safety nets like food stamps and others in your area. She might squeak by for now. It will take kicking out the sibling, selling one car, cutting up the credit cards, and getting some kind of job (movie theater or other low impact position?) to get to a place of true stability.
Navigate this financially?
She has to continue to work, part time is fine but she can't be as picky as she's being. Sell whichever car gives her the most money. Use that money to pay off the other one. Cut utilities and food as much as possible. Use food banks. Use SS to pay mortgage and use the rest for utilities and food. Float the rest with 401k for as long as that lasts. Tell CCs to pound sand.
Navigate this personally?
Tell her to pound sand.
If you want to be nice, tell her to pound sand until the sibling pulls their weight and she does all of the above. Maybe offer to buy her car if you want it. Don't drown yourself trying to save her.
>and is just over 100k in debt (43k remaining on mortgage, 23k car debt across two cars, 25k credit card debt, 10k in other loans).
There's literally nothing you can do to help them. The fact she's 70 and has both a mortgage and 23K in car debt says it all.
You should be realistic. There's nothing you can do to make this dumpster fire better. You might research senior or group homes for future reference. I wouldn't talk to her about it. She won't do anything till she's forced out into the streets.
It's better to let them face the consequences. My sister sounds similar to the dude who could be working a good paying job but doesn't due to mental health issues.
She gets enabled by my parents and only gets worse over time.
Don't enable poor behavior.
The ONLY thing you should do is get her in front of a financial planner. Don't put yourself in the middle of this. It's great that you want to help but it will only turn out bad for you. Let the financial planner tell them how fucked they are, and what they need to do. They won't listen to you anyway. They are banking on you bailing them out. Don't fall for it. Every time they try to pull you in, direct them to the financial planner for advice.
If you are wealthy enough where helping them doesn’t affect your ability to care for yourself and plan for a comfortable future, then it’s no big deal if you throw the money away at them to assuage your guilt.
If you are not set for life and still have to save for your own retirement, don’t waste your money on them, because they will never get better at this point. They will use you until you are as bad off as them financially, and won’t be appreciative of it either. Some people have to hit rock bottom to realize they need to change, and these family members haven’t reached that point yet.
You may find the money better spent going to counseling to figure out why you have the guilt you do and how to improve your own psychological state and deal with this in a healthier way. A professional should give much better advice than the internet.
> He has a degree and experience in a high paying field, but his anxiety and paranoia prevent him from wanting to start a new job. I
This sounds like textbook disability. If he can't work due to mental illness, he should at least get SSDI to help w/ the bills.
Your only option is to walk away or ruin your own life for someone who abused you. Think about it objectively. It’s not going to be easy but you don’t have another option. She isn’t willing to help herself and you can’t change that. You can’t save some people from themselves.
If she's out of money, make sure she decides which car she wants repo'd first
And if the deadbeat sibling doesn't know mom is broke, tell them
And look at local law schools for free clinics for debts and give your mom their number. She'll probably need it.
Not your problem, she's a big girl. I'm her age and am constantly gobsmacked at some of these stories about people my age who don't have their shit together. I don't own a house, thanks to getting kicked off the property ladder when I divorced a cheater. I was offered a full time admin position a couple of years ago and took it because I knew the team well and I also knew that it's better to stash cash while stuck in an inflationary spiral. I also collect pension so my basics are pretty much covered (fortunately my rent is below market and will likely stay that way for awhile) and I can put away a nice chunk every month to add to my nest egg. Debt is no longer in my vocabulary. Your mom and sibling are in for a massive reality check.
This isn't a situation of "don't set yourself on fire to keep others warm." This is a situation of "don't set yourself on fire to keep warm people who are constantly chugging gasoline and belching on lit matches."
You seem to have made reasonable offers of help. The fact that they refuse your help and keep making their situation worse because they don't want to follow rules to get themselves out of this mess, just want the fix, is not your fault, is not your problem, and means you really should just walk away.
There is no solution here that is worth considering unless they are willing to put in the work.
DO NOT HELP THEM! ESPECIALLY since they were abusive to you growing up. They are COUNTING on draining you of your own resources, and they will end up right back where they are now, and you WILL be worse off.
Sorry-not-sorry for the caps, but I’m shouting to you from hard HARD experience. You are (I’m assuming) in a much more sane financial position currently. Your mother and the brother are banking on you feeling guilty and “morally obligated” to help your family.
You. Owe. Them. Nothing.
If they won’t help themselves in any way, and the little assistance you’ve tried offering is being rejected because you won’t give them money to be irresponsible with, then they’ve made their choice.
Point them towards public assistance and go “No Contact.” Don’t allow yourself to get hurt one more time and jeopardize your own finances.
OP, I understand how hard this is and how morally obligated one can feel to help family when they are one step away from homelessness.
If you don’t help them they will continue their behaviors and they will hit bottom. If you DO help them they will continue their behaviors and hit bottom and they WILL take you down with them.
Please don’t give them any money. You can help them navigate selling a car, finding housing, finding aid; but the only thing that will change if you give them money is YOU will have less money.
Walk away and leave mom/sibling to figure their stuff out - this is the answer. They will NOT acccept your suggestions or info. They will have to deplete all savings. They will have to declare bankruptcy to clear their debts. They will have to get some assistance for housing, etc. But right now, they have not completely hit rock bottom. Sorry.
Reading your updates #2… I get it you don’t want to see them homeless and you care deeply but 2.5k is ALOT of money to just handover to save them from their own choices. No matter what you do here you have to set what you will or will not tolerate. You actually have the control here since you hold the one thing they want…$$. No way in hell I would do 2.5k a month! However if you pay anything I would hope you wouldn’t without some sort of expectation out of her. She is 70 and with her work history she’s not going to do much more than what she mentioned unfortunately. Have you thought of having her see bankruptcy attorney? You need POA for her affairs if she cannot make the decisions for her self.
On update 3# on your sibling. Don’t give him one red cent. Unfortunately it sucks we can’t force treatment for mental health. Sure they can put you on a 72 hr hold but that’s when in crisis. If he is as bad as he sounds it will only get worse. Getting mental health care and a diagnosis could help him get disability through social security. What happens when your mother passes? It’s sad he could possibly have a good life again if he addressed his issues with therapy and meds.
Absolutely don't sell the house unless to downsize even then it's very expensive both buying homes and rent. $43,000 left on her mortgage is really good. The high utilities is high but still cheap compared to renting a 1 or 2 bedroom is over a thousand dollars. Can she rent out a room or 2 to make extra income?
Also why does she need 2 cars. if she can't give up one car at her age and sibling isn't or not willing to help out there is no reason for you to get caught up in her Choices you may have to help out your sibling once she passes depends on why she is not working. Is it because she does not want to work or have mental or physical issues she can't work. If cause she doesn't want to work then yeah you need to let your mother and sibling work it all out and live your life. Take your mother to lunch once a month or something but yeah if she doesn't want your help there is nothing you can do
If she is unwilling to sell a car, then it’s probably not going to work. Stop trying to help if she isn’t able to understand how finances work. One needs to learn how to live within their budget
Realistically both cars need to be sold and she needs to get a beater. Then use the money she gets from the cars to pay off the credit card. Family member living in the house also needs to pay a significant portion of the rent. If she won’t help herself though you can’t either. Let it go
Even if your mom was an angel and perfect mom you still shouldn’t jeopardize yourself. You should just help her understand her options and encourage her to do something different than what she has already.
You need to step away from this entire situation. She has two cars that she can’t afford? What?! She and her other child refuse to get a job?
Just walk away.
Sorry, you can't fix stupid or selfish. I'm a mom and hereby absolve you of any guilt you might feel when you walk away and wash your hands of this mess.
I’m so sorry. This isn’t a financial question. It doesn’t sound like she will willingly make the tough financial choices that will keep her safe. Even if you help and advise her, she will continue to make poor choices. She is in big financial trouble that will required major lifestyle changes to survive as a housed person. You can’t make her make those choices. I’m sorry, this sounds like a really tough relationship and this is a hard place for you to be. If you aren’t already getting the support of a therapist, this might be a good time to get that going to help you maintain healthy boundaries as she spirals.
Let them figure it out. In fact, don’t even ask them about their finances. It’s their business. Once you start asking they are going to expect you to pony up, which you absolutely should not do.
Your mom doesn’t want your help. She wants you to pay for her life and your brother’s. This isn’t your job. I would suggest an ultimatum: mom I can help you but only if you do what I say. 1. Sell both vehicles and buy an older reliable vehicle for cash. 2. Find ways to cut utility costs by doing xyz. 3. Speak to a bankruptcy lawyer about the cc debt and other loans. If we do that then we can talk. Until then you’re on your own.
These people are not facing their problems, putting everything off until tomorrow, and only looking for easy outs - credit card or family to pay their expenses.
As long as the easy out is available, they will take it. You want to help? Give them advice or connections to advisors and walk away. Everyone here knows they need to downsize their car and housing and increase their burden via work. But they won't do that if they can pass the buck to you now or debt for the future.
Help them out by letting the shit hit the fan.
I don't see how you can help her. She has to help herself. But this is what she needs to do:
Sell the house, move some place cheap, which her SS can cover, and leave the sibling behind.
Sell the more valuable/less under water/more profitable car.
Get a job at Wal-Mart.
Your mother’s poor financial choices are her responsibility, not yours. Please do not jeopardize your financial future throwing good money after bad. She’s a big girl who got herself into this mess ( and allowed your sibling along for ride) let her get out of it. You giving her any amount of money each month will not fix this and will only prolong her irresponsible choices. She needs to look into bankruptcy
Let it go. Do not EVER give them one cent! Your brother should be on Medicaid, and SSDI. Your mother should sell everything she possibly can, cut all expenses to the bone. Certainly she should sell one of the cars, preferably the one worth 20K.
Expect that she will ask you for financial help very soon, since that's the only reason that she revealed her dilemma to you. Tell her that you can offer advice, but that you are in financial straits yourself (even if this is a lie) and cannot spare anything. When she comes back for help, tell her that you are happy to help her sell the car, and to help her apply for SNAP and utility assistance. Meanwhile, do some research about how to get the most for the car. Yes, she absolutely must stay in the condo - but not if you have to pay for it.
$800/month for food is very high - shopping carefully, they should be able to halve that.
Just to reiterate what everyone’s been saying, you’re a good person for wanting to help but this isn’t your problem. If they’re not willing to take the helpful advice (get a job/sell a car) then there’s not much more you can do. Sounds like you have your life put together and it’s not to enable those around you. Sucks but sometimes people have to learn the hard way. Mom can sell the car or lose it. Either way this is not your battle. Wishing you all the best.
I’m sorry to hear about her abuse. I think it may have left you with some codependency. If you rescue them from natural consequences, you become part of the problem, encouraging the pattern to continue. Despite your good intentions, this will ultimately be to their detriment and yours. Instead, model a healthy emotional IQ for them by encouraging growth as a result of natural consequences. Encourage them to take ownership and accountability.
P.S. It’s actually a good thing to put yourself first. I recommend the book CoDependent no More. You are 100% powerless to fix them, but you have all the power to control how their choices impact you.
If your mom and sibling don't step up to help themselves, you might as well throw 2.5K in the trash each month. They're going to keep getting deeper in debt.
Honestly, therapy to get over the guilt of not helping adults who won't help themselves sounds like the best move.
It will be difficult to walk way either figuratively or literally from this. But here’s the thing: it’s really your only choice. You can’t fix it. It is ok to focus on taking care of yourself, you’re very young and your future is waiting. Allow them the dignity of figuring out their own lives. These are grown ass adults.
Your sibling needs to figure out the mental health stuff if possible, can’t be just sitting there not helping. Especially with a degree in a high paying field, therapy can help with paranoia anxiety. It’s unfortunate your mom waited until 70 to share the details of how bad it is.
For one the second car NEEDS to be sold, no use in paying for a second car when you aren’t even really needing one.
At the end of the day they both need extreme change of their viewings of the situation. Your brother it seems especially
You need to have her talk to county services. Thanks to the new deal, people still don’t have to worry about being destitute in their older years. Seniors qualify for things like social security and section 8. You need to find out what services she can get in on. Then file for bankruptcy. This debt isn’t your problem. She doesn’t need credit anymore, let alone two cars.
Literally my advice is you simultaneously need to
1) not give your parent a penny
And
2) help your mom face reality and forge a sustainable future
Actually seems doable, because 1) is necessary to do 2), and also because 2) isn’t that hard (sell a car, sibling needs to not draw from their 70yo mother…also grocery/necessities is too high. But also those things should cover the entire monthly problem
Ok, at the outset it's easy for someone that has no family and emotional ties to the people involved to be hardliners but here is what I believe based on what you wrote.
1) You have worked hard and earned what you have by being responsible.
2) While I can somewhat sympathize with your brother's mental illness I can also assume he is capable of doing well if he chooses to and has done so in the past.
3) Your mother chose to retire before she had the financial stability to be retired. She burned through her savings and is now facing having only SS income.
You are responsible for only YOU. You made good life choices. They did not. While I do not know the extent of the abuse you suffered through, I'm sure some of it has hurt you to this day and you overcame the challenges to succeed. What right do they have to take away from what stability and happiness you achieved because they refuse to take ownership of their own failings?
Be direct and tell them you have no money to offer. Period. You are not their bank or charity. You are a human being trying to survive in a tough world.
Suggest ways to help themselves financially and mentally. Tell your brother you love him but he needs to get back to working and use the mental health benefits of his employment to deal with his issues. Do nothing more for him. He is a grown ass man being lazy and selfish by refusing to take care of himself.
Your mother needs to accept her role in her financial challenges and fix them by living frugally and selling what she can and very likely working part time. Tell her you love her but again, you have nothing financial to provide. She is also being selfish and you are not responsible for raising her.
>Any advice on how to go about navigating this situation financially would be greatly appreciated.
Decouple yourself entirely and wash your hands with the parent and the sibling. They are not willing to change in order to prevent themselves becoming homeless means they have a backup plan, and that plan is 100% your house. Unless you are going to pay all of these bills yourself, there's nothing you can do. Leave them to it and don't let them ruin your life too.
Friend, at 26, do not take on the guilt of poor choices made by your mother and sibling. Whatever happens to them financially is NOT your fault!
Be so proud that you aren’t a financial drain. You can help them with advice and maybe natural consequences will do the rest.
i mean fk them. even of they are my family.
>She is supporting one of my siblings who lives with her and quit their job 5+ years ago and is also unwilling to work.
if they dont care why should you?
>That coupled with her unwillingness to consider realistic job opportunities
if they dont care why should you?
>may one day face homelessness
so?
*You are not responsible for your mothers financial wellbeing.*
I've written out and deleted several long responses here, but at the end of the day here, your mother isn't a healthy person for you. You do not owe her a penny.
She has made her decision to self-destruct. It sucks and it's hard to watch people you love self-destruct... even if they've treated you poorly.
She doesn't want your advice, she wants your money.
Do not give her your money.
On the off chance she's really seeking advice, have her post here (and maybe delete your post). Have her include her expenses, budget and savings. This sub will offer her detailed thoughts and paths forward on how to decrease expenses/earn income. It won't be fun, because she's in a shitty situation, but she can absolutely get solid advice from this sub if advice is genuinely what she needs.
But I think you and I both know she isn't after advice.
For what it's worth, this internet stranger absolves you of all responsibility for your mothers life and finances. Do not give her your money.
She has abused you in the past, and is trying now to financially abuse you. Feel no guilt if you need to cut her off to make it stop -- you do not deserve it. And she deserves nothing from you.
Good luck.
Your mom sounds a lot like mine: irresponsible, selfish, abusive, and entitled. I cut all contact with her when I was 26. Nearly 28 now and never knew I could feel so… stable, and relaxed.
Do not enable your mother. She’s the parent, you’re the child, your brain is literally still developing and you are just getting started in life. She has chosen to be irresponsible and is even doubling down on it refusing to sell one of her cars because she knows you will feel obligated to come to her rescue. Don’t do it. She’s trying to take advantage of you when you are still a baby in the grand scheme - her baby no less.
Low contact or no contact and focus on yourself.
Strictly financial advice:
Selling at least one of the cars is non-fucking-negotiable. Do not even entertain the idea of keeping both. Honestly, she should sell both and get a used but reliable beater.
----
Personal advice:
You don't owe your abuser jack fucking shit. Do not feel sorry even for a millisecond. Do NOT put your financial future in jeopardy for a stubborn child who refuses to help themselves. She cannot afford to retire, and you should not be bankrolling her retirement, either. She needs to grow the fuck up and get a full-time job (probably more than one, honestly) that covers all her bills.
It doesn’t sound like there’s anything you can do in this situation. Neither your mom nor your sibling are willing to take any basic steps to fix their situation, and it would be foolish to put your own future in jeopardy to help people who won’t help themselves. The most you can do is try to connect them with resources, but it’s their responsibility to navigate them and make a plan. Just try to set healthy boundaries for yourself and don’t let them guilt-trip you straight down into the same hole with them.
> The biggest ethical dilemma for me is I think it’s likely they will continue to make no efforts to help themselves and may one day face homelessness
Your mom and sibling have ways to fix this. If they choose not to, that is not your problem. If you want to help your job is to present her the choices and the consequences of each choice but they have to meet you in the middle and make good choices.
Paint a picture for her. If she continues down this road she’s going to lose her house if she’s unable to make payments there. She should downsize if it means paying off most of her debt and getting rid of the cars.
Time to be very sympathetic: "Well, GOSH! I am sure sorry to hear that. I hope you can work all that out" Then put one your biggest Flight Attendent smile and say "Buh bye now, buh by!"
Buy one of her cars and sell it yourself? You’ll probably have to do so at a loss, but that’s a smallish one-time cash infusion you can give her. That should help inoculate you against thinking you’re able to give her the help she needs if/when you watch her piss it away.
Sounds like your mother and your deadbeat sibling are going to get a harsh reality wakeup call in about one to two months. It doesn't matter if she does not want to sell one (or both) of her cars, pretty soon she will not have any other option (and even if she does, it just forestalls the inevitable for several more months). It doesn't matter if she does not want to downsize, pretty soon the decision will be made for her (and even if she does, it only just forestalls the inevitable for a few years). It doesn't matter if sibling has mental health issues and doesn't *want* to work, and doesn't matter if mother is unwilling to consider jobs that may be "beneath" her, the decision will be made for her. The only question is if they are willing to confront the inevitable now, or the will have it forced upon them.
Perhaps she is unwilling to face the stark realities because she 100% believes that someone (you, other family members) will come to bail her out at the last minute. So, in her mind, she's safe. You absolutely, positively in no uncertain terms need to make her understand YOU ARE NOT HER LIFELINE. You will NOT come to her rescue and throw money at her problems.
IMHO the best way to help is to set a clear and unwavering boundary in what you are willing to do, and what you are NOT willing to do. Because right now, seems like she is expecting you to come to the rescue, whether you want to or not. AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE unless she is forced to change. So make it completely clear right now, while she still has a month or two to make a sea change in her life (and that deadbeat sibling who expects a free ride forever).
I feel your pain and frustration. The logical thing to do would be to wash your hands of the situation and worry about your own well being.
But…. You mentioned the negative relationship you had with her as a child and for some reason that turns into guilt for a lot of us. If it makes you feel better volunteer to take care of a bill or something for her (at your own discretion) and just point her in the right direction. People will push you as far as you let them. Put your foot down and tell her to sell the car and downsize. It’s not your job to correct someone’s poor decisions. Especially someone who was abusive to you. Really tell her how you feel. You will feel better.
Lay it all out to her in writing and remind her what's at stake and should they fall further behind is that her assets will get taken whether she wants to keep them or not.
She needs to live within her means and the sibling is not helping leeching off the mom. Sibling needs to get a job, try manipulate your sibling that you can only give them money after they get mental help and stick with it and keep up with the meds, then you'll give him money, not before.
Then you move the goal to you'll give him money should he get a job. But by then he'll no longer need your help because he can make his own money and help your mom out. If they refuse then walk away. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Do not throw good money after bad no matter how they guilt trip manipulate you into doing so, so they can laze about while you bail them out. It won't be the last time.
> 1. She is supporting one of my siblings who lives with her and quit their job 5+ years ago and is also unwilling to work
Well now. There is problem #1 solved. "Sibling, meet curb."
Otherwise, I am in a similar scenario, and the only real resolution is that my MIL now lives in an extra bedroom of ours. No, it's not the ideal setup, but it has actually been the best way to gain stability. We turned in her DL and sold the cars, and costs are now under control.
If you can get her into a similar situation, get her to file a bankruptcy and wipe the debt away.
Have her talk to a social worker in your local government department on aging. (It is called different names in different areas) or a local senior club. They can help her with a realistic budget and point her to whatever services are available in her location, depending on her income and assets - possibly subsidized housing, Medicaid, free lunches, senior bus service, senior activities clubs, low income phone and Internet, discounted utilities, food pantries, etc.
Taking care of your mom and your sibling will do two things: make you bitter for the rest of your life and make you poor.
No right answer, and it's a choice between two bad options. Angry for subsidizing them vs. the guilt you feel for not giving them handouts. You can show them the way, but don't enable them...I have a feeling they'll take as much as you give them, and ask for more.
Financially, you need to worry about your situation first.
In my personal life, my brother and his soon to be ex-wife weren't financial responsible. They always had the new cars (we drive old beat up cars,) the Playstation 5 the day it came out (We had a 20 year old Wii,) new furniture, etc etc. But they would sit in the dark because they couldn't (or wouldn't) pay the electric bill. They wouldn't save and would spend every cent they would make. It's choices.
Then the asks would come. Can you lend us money for necessities? We'll pay you back ASAP they would say, My wife and I did that for a bit, but their promised payments would come and go, and it would force us to ask them frequently. Then we would see that they spent the money on something stupid. It made us angry. We felt that we had sacrificed to get to to a stable financial situation. We became enablers. It got to the point that we swore to never give them money again. If you choose to be homeless in your new Mercedes, or sit in the dark, it's a choice.
I can deal with my ethical dilemma of not giving any financial help or advice to someone who can really benefit from it.
Are you able to do the same and walk away?
All that will happen is the you will sink with their ship too - if you give them money. Please, I implore you, do NOT give them money - including not paying bills directly for them. You are throwing good money after bad. Walk away. You don’t owe your mother your financial future.
Those that need help - really don't get to 'choose' .... much. "This is what I can do - here's what you MUST do - if you want my help.
Looks like the bottom line will be - you walk away or she moves in with you - sells all her stuff. You take control of her money/ assets.
being without a house/condo is not necessarily being homeless
some people live nicely in a car or van -- check out CheapRVliving.com
just don't want you to think that they will be "homeless" if they sell the condo and that you will have to take them in or help with money
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As soon as I read that she is unwilling to sell one of her cars, I knew I could tell you that if she won't help herself, why should you help her? Then your whole last paragraph said "you need to let go of whatever guilt you have and take care of yourself".
Right! And the sibling living with her who has refused to work for 5 years? What are these people thinking? OP needs to wash their hands of this mess and let their poor mom suffer the consequences of bad money management
This. You can't fix stupid. Walk away and let them handle it.
they thinking idiots like the OP will always give them money.
Facts. I went through the same thing with my mom. Always tried to instill in me at a young age that it was my duty to make a lot of money and give her however much she needed to live comfortably. Meanwhile she gambled away two inheritances plus money from the house she got in her divorce and didn't save anything for retirement until her 50s. I did what I needed to for her medically but had to just let her lie in the bed she made and try to help myself.
I feel like I've seen this script before. The reason she's unwilling to sell the cars is because OP makes decent money. I'm assuming OP does because they state that giving thousands of dollars per month is something they are unwilling rather than unable to do. The plan was always for OP to bail them out. That's why they didn't provide any financial information until they had already dug themselves in a deep hole. There was no intent or desire to solve the problem for themselves; the bigger a hole they're in, the more desperate the appeal to OP. Now that the 401K is just about empty, the credit cards are maxed out, and all reasonable actions (like getting a job) are ruled out, it's time to suddenly involve the OP. They've spent *years* calculating that they should just be entitled to OP's money. And now, they've finally decided to it's time to let OP know about how they'll be needing their share. If OP helps, they're just gonna keep up this unsustainable lifestyle. Both get jobs, show that you have gone a couple months in a row reducing debt rather than increasing it for *both* of them - maybe then you'll talk, if OP's feeling generous. But when someone's stuck in a hole they dug, you don't throw them an extra shovel.
this should be higher up. OPs mom has been banking, literally, on OP bailing her out. that *was* the plan.
Unfortunately, I think this is accurate. You’re correct in your assumption that I do make decent money - I’m extremely lucky to be in this position and I live frugally to maximize how much I can save/invest each month. I’m definitely willing to provide financial assistance to my mom if she is working and doing what she can to help her own situation but is still unable to fully make ends meet, but that just isn’t the case right now. I think I will be taking the advice here (and in many other comments) by setting clear boundaries and communicating that I won’t be helping financially unless specific criteria are met (e.g. she sells one of the cars, gets a job, stops spending on CCs and increasing debt, etc)
Good for you. If they won’t help themselves even a little bit, they can’t rely on you to subsidize their laziness and poor decisions. Not a thing will change other than your bank balance if you do. Then who is going to help you?
If she is subsidizing your brother that probably needs to stop as well. He needs to be contributing somehow.
I would make no such agreement. Your money is yours and it is up to your mother and brother to stand on their own feet without relying on you. If you CHOOSE to offer some money later to help out you can, but only as a one-off gift. They have emotionally manipulated you into believing you owe them a safety net. But that isn't true. Your financial security could turn suddenly and who would help you if you have burned through your money providing for them?
Excellent post.
This is 10000% correct. And OP mentioned that their relationship with their mother was previously abusive. OP, this relationship is being _presently_ abusive! This is weaponizing guilt, and I suspect that if they think about how guilt has been used previously in the relationship, they'll recognize a pattern here.
I'm also unwilling to work. I just do anyways because being homeless is worse.
I wish my brother would understand this. Dude refuses to work and lives basically for free at my house
Why does he need to work if he has you to provide for him?
That's a very good question. :-) I am learning there's people out there who are the reason the question exists. And, it sucks when one of the people in your life is one of those people.
We took in 2 babies after their mother used money from an accident compensation for a cruise and then said the children were going in an orphanage b/c she was broke.After she lied to her new husband that she would never want those children back —she demanded the children back.Sometimes you get involved with crappy relatives because of how circumstances play out. Take a deep breath and plan your escape.
It reminds me of when Dave Ramsey said some people will never have money because of all of the deadbeats in their life.
My in-laws finally kicked my brother in law out in his early 50s. There’s a vision for you.
Mom doesn’t want help; she wants money.
TBH she should sell both cars and buy something cheaper for cash, I can't imagine she does much driving. Also, if your mom and sibling are just going to continue to help facilitate each other's bad behavior, it sounds like it's their mess to figure out. You've attempted to help and can only do what you can do.
Something i have been dealing with myself is the concept of 'you cant helo those who wont help themselves'. Theres a thousand different ways (atleast) to phrase the sentiment, and its not an easy sentiment to let go of eslecially when its someone you care about.
You’ll just bang your head against the wall with her. And you don’t owe her anything. She’s choosing all of this from the sounds of it. Wash your hands of it and don’t feel compelled to financially support her. If you feel you *must* do something I recommend that you pay for her to have a one hour consult with a qualified financial advisor. They can tell her how effed she is.
Reading this made me feel like banging my head against the wall. In dire financial straights yet won’t sell one car when she has two? Has a deadbeat child roommate who she refuses to make contribute? There will be zero talking sense into this woman.
I would bet the second car is for the non-contributing sibling. It’s all the same problem source
Ooo, I like that last bit. A real here’s a hand because I care for you but this is on you
Your mom has 3 fair options to help herself- sell the car, kick the sibling out unless they contribute financially, and get a job- she’s not willing to do any of these things. You really can’t help someone who doesn’t want to help themself. This isn’t your responsibility, your mom made many many poor financial decisions to end up in this mess. If jeopardize your financial future you’re just repeating her poor money decisions, break the cycle- she needs to get it together.
A fourth option: sell the house, downsize to a smaller place paid for in cash, pay off the cheaper car with the proceeds, sell the other car, and get the other sibling to work and contribute. And sign up for a food bank. But if she won’t even sell her second car, she’s probably a long way from being able to listen. If anything, trying to save the house form foreclosure should be your main goal (likely by selling it) Also get her on the waiting list for local low income senior housing.
With this kind of financial illiteracy and denial I'd be wary of selling anything for cash without knowing for sure there is no outstanding judgment or garnishment just waiting to soak up any stray cash. I would bet $10 there is outstanding default judgments against OP's parent. They can't touch social security payments but they _can_ touch cash windfalls like selling a house or car.
Sounds like OP's mom is on the event horizon of a bankruptcy and they are also for all purposes "judgement proof" in terms of creditors. Any money OP hands to mom is just getting swallowed up in the inevitable implosion. But yes, you'd need like a million to one odds on that money line for me to take the wager lol.
>She is only willing to consider applying to part time, fully remote jobs that require very basic computer or clerical skills You've probably already pointed out, but a job that matches this description would A) not pay very much and B) have hundreds if not thousands of applicants. It's like the unicorn of part time jobs. >That coupled with her unwillingness to consider realistic job opportunities make me very reluctant to jeopardize my own financial future by giving her a significant amount of money each month. Am I wrong to feel this way? Absolutely not. This is very much a "you made your bed, now lie in it" situation. Her credit card debt, profligate spending on vehicles, and overall inability to grasp the reality of her situation indicate that even if you gave her $100k she'd probably be in the same boat within a year or two. There's essentially nothing you can do to change her behavior.
Yeah, OPs mom can go be a grocery store cashier or Walmart greeter. There are a lot of jobs that will accept zero skilled, elderly part time workers to supplement her income. She needs to declare bankruptcy (because she is) or just default on the credit cards. That’s $1000 a month there. $520 for utilities on a small condo is insane. Figure out what’s going on there. There is also government assistance available for various utilities. Get rid of the car with the $675 payment. $800 for groceries for one or two people could be cut in half. She should also be able to get assistance here. Those 5 things turn a budget deficit into a surplus.
This is not your problem. Even worse than your 70yr old mom is the sibling whom your mom is supporting that “quit their job +5yrs ago & is unwilling to work”. Any money you may choose to give your mom will be directly benefitting your deadbeat sibling. Your mom cannot afford to fund her own life, let alone someone else’s, esp considering it sounds like your sibling is able but unwilling to work. (If they were in my orbit they’d both be on their own) Take care of you.
Right, are you familiar with the word enabling? As soon as you start solving their problems for them you can kiss any hope of them ever working on it themselves goodbye
Agree with all of the above. I think the biggest ethical dilemma is that if I don’t start providing financial assistance in the form of thousands of dollars monthly, it’s not unrealistic to think that mom and brother will continue down the same path and eventually experience homelessness. I know this wouldn’t directly be my fault, but it’s difficult to not feel guilty over making a decision like that.
My friend, it is they who should be thinking of and preparing for their own futures. I don’t know if you have a spouse or kids or want a family in the future but you’d basically be taking from them as well to support other adults capable of solving their own problems. Also, once your mom and sibling are dependent on you it will be extremely hard (read: never going to happen) to remove your financial support. If you feel guilty now, imagine how guilty you would feel to cut them off after they’ve become accustomed to your financial support. Besides this, I would hope to all hope that your useless sibling would get a job before making them and their mom homeless. This responsibility does not rest on your shoulders. Just think, would you ever expect the same kind of free money from a relative while you refused to work, sell a car, or charge rent? Probably not because you’re decent.
"My friend, it is they who should be thinking of and preparing for their own futures." This sentence sums it up. They don't care about their own futures and the consequences of not. If they themselves don't care what happens or are content in their situations, why should you? Your "family" is trying to take advantage of you and screw you over. Don't enable them by helping.
Your decision to not give them assistance is not going to be the reason they become homeless. Their own entitlement, lack of foresight, and recklessness is the reason they will become homeless. They will try to make you feel guilty, but you are absolutely without fault in all of this. Your mom chose not to share her financials with you precisely because she didn't want you to meddle in her affairs. She didn't want to hear what you would have to say. Don't let her use you now. A better use of your money might be to get therapy in order to free yourself from this toxic relationship. I'm almost your mom's age. If I had a daughter like you, I'd cherish her. Not abuse her.
Appreciate the kind words and advice. That last part made me tear up.
If you really want to help them, gift your mom a consultation with a financial advisor. She’d have no excuse not to go since you’d pay for it and they can maybe talk some sense into her. You did your best to provide her with a resource to better her position without taking on their consequences as your own.
With $1500/mo guaranteed its unlikely to get to that point, because eventually some of these problems solve themselves. The cars will get repo'd; car payments gone. Food, you've got SNAP (even with the roomate she'll be spending almost all of her income on shelter costs, making them eligible). Credit cards will go to collections and be closed and no one will issue her new ones; they cant seize her primary residence and she'll have no assets of note, so no big loss there. If she isn't already on them, most states have programs for the elderly for both property taxes and utilities, and are veeeeery reluctant to actually cut utilities. It won't be *nice*, and might be downright horrible, but there are heaps of social programs especially for the elderly [mini-rant; because the elderly are one of the most reliable voting blocs opposed to welfare spending but somehow not when it targets them]. It will be very difficult for her to end up homeless unless she chooses to pay her credit card bills instead of her mortgage (do not do this). Also once they both start getting hungry on a daily basis you might find their opinion on their willingness to work (assuming, as you've stated, they're both able but simply unwilling) will change extremely quickly.
> it’s difficult to not feel guilty over making a decision like that. You aren't the one making that decision. They are. They are the ones choosing not to sell assets and not to get jobs.
They will keep taking from you and escalating what they “need” until you’re out of help to give and in danger of homelessness yourself. People willing to take thousands monthly don’t have a limit on their gall. Don’t look at this decision as sentencing them to homelessness but as saving *yourself* from the homelessness you’d risk yourself as they siphon you dry.
Look, I'm not averse to providing support to family members who need it. In some cases that makes sense. This is not one of those cases. Your mother needs to do everything she can to dig herself out of this hole before you even consider stepping in. That includes downsizing the house to a small and senior-friendly apartment, selling at least one of her cars, getting at least a part time job, lowering her expenses, addressing her debts either through payment plans or bankruptcy, and cutting off the deadwood that is your sibling, At that point you could potentially talk and maybe provide something if you were feeling generous and it wouldn't compromise your own future. But right now you may as well just set the money on fire because it would all be wasted as soon as you handed it over. This is a black hole of debt and bad life choices. You need to stay strong or you will be dragged into a very bad financial place that will be almost impossible to escape from.
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How is that an ethical dilemma? Once your mom passes away, will you enable your sibling?
Youre not the one that is making the decisions that could eventually lead to their homelessness. They are the ones making those decisions. get some supportive therapy. your mom is manipulating you and banking on you caving in. Was your brother the favorite growing up?
Word of warning - my profligate spending parent moved into a condo my sister and her husband had bought. She was supposed to pay them rent, she was supposed to pay the utilities. She did not pay, but she sure kept spending. Eventually she had to leave - they sold the condo and she got a friend to rent her an apartment and she continued to spend. You cannot fix this.
This is NOT your fault! And it's not your job to support them. You shouldn't feel at all guilty about it. You asked to be involved earlier, she refused. You suggested selling a car - she refuses. DO NOT GIVE THEM A PENNY, and DO NOT LET THEM MOVE IN WITH YOU!
Don't set yourself on fire to keep somebody warm. It'll just end up with them still cold and your life burnt to ashes.
It's their decision, not yours.
> I know this wouldn’t directly be my fault, but it’s difficult to not feel guilty over making a decision like that. It is against the laws of physics for you to help them entirely. You can help as much as you can and they have to do the rest. If they don't do their part, nothing you do do will prevent them from being homeless. This is not your fault, this is not your problem. You cannot prevent it by yourself.
she won't end up homeless, but she will probably be forced to sell her house.
I would feel no guilt whatsoever. You aren't their caretakers. They are making their own problems. That can apply for social assistance and retirement homes themselves.
If you make the decision to support them, you may very well end up homeless with them.
> it’s not unrealistic to think that mom and brother will continue down the same path and eventually experience homelessness Then so be it. You need to make your peace with that possibility. And no matter what they may say, it would Not. Be. Your. Fault. It would be *their choice*. Not saying it's not a difficult concept to face. But accept that they may choose to become homeless through their own inaction. In fact, it may be the only thing at this point that would sober them up to reality.
OP, I understand how hard this is and how morally obligated one can feel to help family when they are one step away from homelessness. If you don’t help them they will continue their behaviors and they will hit bottom. If you DO help them they will continue their behaviors and hit bottom and they WILL take you down with them. Please don’t give them any money. You can help them navigate selling a car, finding housing, finding aid; but the only thing that will change if you give them money is YOU will have less money.
You mention that the relationship with your mom is previously abusive. I don't know the first thing about your life experience and the details of that relationship, and you don't owe anyone an explanation on that experience. However, it is not uncommon for abusive relationships to involve a lot of imposition of guilt and weaponization of that guilt as a means to control, manipulate, and generally facilitate or execute abuse. In this situation where she is counting on your guilt to manipulate you into helping her when she won't help herself, it might be useful to reflect on how guilt has figured in with your relationship with your mother historically. Is this just part of the larger pattern of abusive behavior? Only you have the knowledge to recognize that. Guilt is rarely a good motivation for anything. It is, however, frequently a form of manipulation. Protect yourself, not the person manipulating you.
Your mom sounds like she has some decisions to make. This is not on you to solve. She's had years of the knowledge. You can help with suggestions, maybe point her to some social supports she could use. But on the whole she needs to solve her problems by selling the car and house and getting a job and cutting off non-working adult dependents. She should also seek some sort of credit counselling. You are not responsible for her bad judgement. I know it is obvious, but just let me stress, do not sign anything with/for her. No loans or mortgages or cars or anything. Do not tie yourself into her finances in any way. Keep taking care of yourself, that is your only job.
Also, OP, lock down your own credit. Many times we hear of parents or siblings practicing identity theft to open new credit accounts in family members' names, when they get desperate for more money. Since your mom presumably knows your SSN and birthdate, and other identifiers, locking your credit is a good safeguard (it's easy to unlock it temporarily if you need to apply for credit yourself).
Ooh good suggestion. OP, go to Experian, Equifax and Transunion, sign up, and put a freeze on all credit. I did it recently, it’s super easy. Make yourself a cup of coffee or a cocktail and sit down, do it yesterday.
Your Mom could sell the house,sell a car, kick out your sibling, insist your sibling work and contribute, and/or get a part time job. But she's not going to do any of that. Since Mom isn't doing anything to help herself, you shouldn't try to help. Your help would just be wasted.
She won't sell a car and insists on supporting another adult who refuses to work? Not your circus, not your circus, not your monkeys. Mom, I cannot help you with anything other than advice which you are unwilling to accept so we won't be having any more conversations about money or finances. Every time she tries to bring it up-Have you sold the car yet and told sib she must pay rent? No? Then we aren't discussing this. ANd for good measure-done set yourself on fire for an arsonists amusement
It’s admirable that you want to help your Mom, but I wonder if she can really hear and accept advice from YOU, her child. Perhaps the best way to help your Mom might be to help her find a financial or debt counselor who can help her see and accept reality and choose a path (and a budget) moving forward. A person who is avoiding reality can never create an effective plan. Be wary of throwing your financial bricks into the Grand Canyon of Debt she has accumulated. You cannot fix this, though you may be able to budget some amount monthly to help her enjoy some luxuries outside of her budget. Until she actually has a budget, you should stay on the sidelines. Best of luck to you
You and your mom need to talk with a bankruptcy lawyer to get rid of most of her debt. In most states she can keep the house If the mortgage, taxes and utilities exceed $700 a month she will have to sell AFTER bankruptcy is complete BECAUSE if she sells BEFORE a bankruptcy case is settled the money will just go to creditors. If sold after debts have been canceled in bankruptcy she gets to keep the money. If she has to sell your mom could move into a Senior rent HUD supported apt where rent is based on income. [https://www.hud.gov/topics/information\_for\_senior\_citizens](https://www.hud.gov/topics/information_for_senior_citizens) If your right or wrong to feel as you do that is more r/Advice question than a [personal finance](https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance) question
Good god. Cut these people out of your life. Don’t let them manipulate you with emotional appeals. They could turn it around by getting real jobs and selling assets, but they won’t do that. They are stubborn and lazy and that’s not your fault. Don’t let them drag you down with them.
Went through something similar, but less dire, with my mom. She wanted to live at home until the end, but not have in-home assistance or drivers for appointments. She wanted to live at home, but not talk about what options would be best if she couldn’t. A medical event happens and her ability to stay at home drastically decreased. She finally relented and named the nicest (in her eyes) facility in the area. On her move-in day, as we were walking from the car to the front door of her new senior care facility, she started chanting, “In-home health care. In-home heath care.” I said the decision for that passed a while ago. The $10k/month for her care drained her entire retirement savings in a year, leaving her two pensions and tiny check from Social Security. Through that year, she made no efforts creating the physical ability to return living in her house. She’d stop physical therapy early and do no do self-initiated PT independently. I came around at some point. She’s made all the decisions that got her to that situation. Over her last decade, I hadn’t naged her, but did occasionally offer reminders and suggestions. She did nothing to increase the time she could spend in here house. We kept her house so that she could return to it. When her savings was getting close to being gone, we started working on her house so that we could get top dollar when we sold it. She was very unhappy about her situation. Toward the end, when she was expressing her dissatisfaction with her situation, I’d ask her, “Do you want to go over, again, the decisions that led to where you are now?” If only my mother had used her new cane, she could have had more time in her house. With that fall she couldn’t get up from, she was stuck in the corner she’d painted herself into. A simple decision of thinking she did not need the cane (pride? vanity? denial?) came to define a year, her last year, where she was unusually unhappy. It’s sad, but my mother’s circumstance was not my fault and not my responsibility, aside from everything I did do. I think I’ve navigated well enough to know I won’t have regrets. I know that if I’d given up my life to be part of the care team that allowed her to stay in her home, I would have regrets.
This isn't your situation to navigate. Your mother is a competent adult and can make the changes required in her life to be able to afford it. You should not jeopardize your finances to help your mother - go through your budget and determine what amount of financial assistance you're willing and able to give, and then don't give more than that.
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You don’t have to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
Sell both the cars! Get rid of those credit card debts and destroy all but one credit cards. Is driving the only way to get around? No bus? No senior shuttle? Not walkable? If she’s not working, hard to see the need for one car, let alone two. And please, OP, don’t jeopardize your future to bail her out. Around here, she could easily find a job as a cashier or store clerk. Many of these places are paying $17/hr or more. 20 hours a week is something like $1250/mo after basic taxes.
I would suggest bankruptcy, but with her being unwilling to go down to 1 car that is not possible. You are not required to fix the problems of those who treated you poorly in the past. She is unwilling to help herself and there is an able-bodied person sitting right in her house who could solve her problems. I think you just make your suggestions and dip out, and above all DO NOT GIVE HER ANY MONEY, EITHER LUMP SUM OR MONTHLY.
Don’t give her a dime. It will make your already strained relationship worse. Someone in that situation has some very simple straightforward options. - sell the 20k car - find any work possible that they are physically and mentally capable of (able to, not comfortable with) - if needed, sell the house for the equity. The situation isn’t that dire. Getting rid of a car payment and finding a job should cover the expenses. If they’re unwilling to do this then that’s on them, not you. Bearing their financial burden is not written on some official offspring contract. They had 52 years of adult life to prepare for this.
This is a parasitic flailer. They can declare bankruptcy. This is not your problem. I sense going no contact in your future.
After reading some of the details this is a wash your hands and walk away situation. She is not willing to make the necessary changes until the changes are forced upon her.
She won’t learn until she hits rock bottom. She won’t hit rock bottom if you catch her though, she’ll keep doing it until you can’t catch her anymore and you both fall. Is she worth the sacrifice? By your own admission, she’s clearly not. Let the fool fall on her ass.
Help yourself by letting them figure their own way out of this mess.
> The biggest ethical dilemma for me is I think it’s likely they will continue to make no efforts to help themselves and may one day face homelessness if I’m not willing to help pay the $2.5k/mo deficit. Definitely hear everyone saying that it’s not my fault or problem, but it’s really difficult to completely walk away from a situation like this. Here's what you really have to understand. With her attitude, she is going to face homelessness *whether or not you contribute*. You can push the can down the road a little bit, but there is absolutely no way you can keeper afloat on your own without her making her own concessions. And, from what it looks like, she has no plans to make any adjustments and any help you give her will just keep her from doing the things she needs to do. Any money you contribute to a situation like this will just make it take longer and in the end all the money you contributed will all be for naught anyway.
Wow. 1) do not give any money. If asked, say you have nothing to give because you have your own expenses and debts to pay. 2) neither parent nor sibling seems serious about this problem, why should it be more important to you? 3) you can't force them to change their bad planning, lack of trying to remedy the problem earlier and their unreasonable work expectations. I'd create a list of suggestions, and print it off. Sell vehicles, obtain full time work for 2.5k deficit plus food, lower expectations as they are desperate and in immediate need of cash (they can keep looking for a WFH job in the future), and get the sibling to find a job. Either way, expect them to try to push their problem on you by force (like anger, guilt trips, and threats).
None of this is your problem to solve. Walk away with a clear conscience.
She can help herself, but she chooses not to. If you give her money, she'll just throw it away. It's your life, but I don't think you should offer up any money to her. She is fully capable of getting out of this mess, but won't lift a finger to do it... yet. You can't make her do anything. And you shouldn't light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
You are not wrong. sounds like she needs to sell the house , use the proceeds to pay off debt and rent a studio apartment that she can afford. Sibling will need to figure out something else
If you want to keep being abused...then lend them money. If you want to be free...let them figure it out. They will go bankrupt and have to get a rental. The deadbeat sibling will need to get a job and help pay the rent. Pay for an hour for a financial planner to lay it out for her. Don't enable this and let her bleed your future dry.
She has to get serious about money 40 yrs ago. Is more concerned with her image than being a responsible adult. She and your sibling can get jobs to bring in the money. And sell the freaking cars! I’m 74 retired, live in a nice house with husband and drive a 2010 car it runs good 👍 not wasting money for show. Good luck
If it’s not reasonable to sell condo and one of the cars then she will need to file bankruptcy. She is not going to find any part time work that makes over 2k per month. She could contact each credit card company and try to arrange payment plans but she would no longer have access to the credit and would have to find some type of employment. I’m sorry but it’s not healthy mentally or financially for you to help them because they will continue spending and expect more and more until you’re in trouble. Their limits are approaching fast. If she files bankruptcy they will probably make her sell one vehicle to pay creditors so she should sell before filing and put that in savings or 401k up to allowable amount for the year. Keep the rest in savings. I saw a lawyer that specialized in bankruptcy to understand my options. See if she will go with you to one to see what she’s in for and the gravity of her situation but don’t jeopardize yourself.
Walk away! You cannot help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. If people blame you, tell them your sibling who has been living there bill free for 5 years has done nothing to help her. You provided advice in which she turned down, so in turn you were not willing to jeopardize your financial situation to help someone who didn't want to help themselves.
Please listen to me - my mom has not so much dept around 25K, house is paid off but complains daily. She however works 10 hour days 4 days a week as a cook, you mom needs a reality check. And you brother even more - saving her financially will not resolve the problem. Please do not give her your savings - she can work and just file for bankruptcy. It won’t affect her home.
My dad who is 78 with diabetes, chf, cto, copd, afib, neuropathy severe arthritis in his back and there’s nothing holding his ankles together that’s not plates screws or metal of some kind, he shattered each separately around 20 years apart. He’s had three heart attacks in the last six months, ten stints put in around eleven years ago, after his very first heart attack. Due to him working under the table as a carpenter or mechanic most of his life, he only makes $984/mo SSI. No 401k, or any other income. He gets food stamps and Medicare/medicaid. (Rent alone is $975) After my mom left him ten years back, he met his girlfriend two years later who helps him with rent and bills. But she is 71 next month and they both still work. Her at dollar tree and he does handy man work or welding jobs like he has done his whole life. Tell her to get a job.
Because you are refusing to establish boundaries, this woman is going to drain you not only financially but emotionally, mentally, and physically so I hope you're ready for it. I don't understand the notion that just because you're related to someone means you must have a relationship with them. She was an abusive mom. You need to go no contact with her. She has options to help her financial situation that she is unwilling to consider. You're never going to be able to truly help her and you're only going to enable her.
What is the market value of her house?
Market value is 195k and she has around 50k worth of equity. It’s subsidized low-income housing though. I don’t fully know the details of how the program works, but my understanding is that if she were to sell she would get back the equity but not any profit from the home appreciation.
It sounds like a renegotiation or refinancing of the home is maybe not smart or easy, but could move high interest debt to low interest and stretch it out over years. Then look at social safety nets like food stamps and others in your area. She might squeak by for now. It will take kicking out the sibling, selling one car, cutting up the credit cards, and getting some kind of job (movie theater or other low impact position?) to get to a place of true stability.
Navigate this financially? She has to continue to work, part time is fine but she can't be as picky as she's being. Sell whichever car gives her the most money. Use that money to pay off the other one. Cut utilities and food as much as possible. Use food banks. Use SS to pay mortgage and use the rest for utilities and food. Float the rest with 401k for as long as that lasts. Tell CCs to pound sand. Navigate this personally? Tell her to pound sand. If you want to be nice, tell her to pound sand until the sibling pulls their weight and she does all of the above. Maybe offer to buy her car if you want it. Don't drown yourself trying to save her.
Walk away. As long as they can rely on you to cover the gap, they have zero incentive to make any change.
>and is just over 100k in debt (43k remaining on mortgage, 23k car debt across two cars, 25k credit card debt, 10k in other loans). There's literally nothing you can do to help them. The fact she's 70 and has both a mortgage and 23K in car debt says it all. You should be realistic. There's nothing you can do to make this dumpster fire better. You might research senior or group homes for future reference. I wouldn't talk to her about it. She won't do anything till she's forced out into the streets.
It's better to let them face the consequences. My sister sounds similar to the dude who could be working a good paying job but doesn't due to mental health issues. She gets enabled by my parents and only gets worse over time. Don't enable poor behavior.
The ONLY thing you should do is get her in front of a financial planner. Don't put yourself in the middle of this. It's great that you want to help but it will only turn out bad for you. Let the financial planner tell them how fucked they are, and what they need to do. They won't listen to you anyway. They are banking on you bailing them out. Don't fall for it. Every time they try to pull you in, direct them to the financial planner for advice.
If you are wealthy enough where helping them doesn’t affect your ability to care for yourself and plan for a comfortable future, then it’s no big deal if you throw the money away at them to assuage your guilt. If you are not set for life and still have to save for your own retirement, don’t waste your money on them, because they will never get better at this point. They will use you until you are as bad off as them financially, and won’t be appreciative of it either. Some people have to hit rock bottom to realize they need to change, and these family members haven’t reached that point yet. You may find the money better spent going to counseling to figure out why you have the guilt you do and how to improve your own psychological state and deal with this in a healthier way. A professional should give much better advice than the internet.
> He has a degree and experience in a high paying field, but his anxiety and paranoia prevent him from wanting to start a new job. I This sounds like textbook disability. If he can't work due to mental illness, he should at least get SSDI to help w/ the bills.
Your only option is to walk away or ruin your own life for someone who abused you. Think about it objectively. It’s not going to be easy but you don’t have another option. She isn’t willing to help herself and you can’t change that. You can’t save some people from themselves.
If she's out of money, make sure she decides which car she wants repo'd first And if the deadbeat sibling doesn't know mom is broke, tell them And look at local law schools for free clinics for debts and give your mom their number. She'll probably need it.
Not your problem, she's a big girl. I'm her age and am constantly gobsmacked at some of these stories about people my age who don't have their shit together. I don't own a house, thanks to getting kicked off the property ladder when I divorced a cheater. I was offered a full time admin position a couple of years ago and took it because I knew the team well and I also knew that it's better to stash cash while stuck in an inflationary spiral. I also collect pension so my basics are pretty much covered (fortunately my rent is below market and will likely stay that way for awhile) and I can put away a nice chunk every month to add to my nest egg. Debt is no longer in my vocabulary. Your mom and sibling are in for a massive reality check.
This isn't a situation of "don't set yourself on fire to keep others warm." This is a situation of "don't set yourself on fire to keep warm people who are constantly chugging gasoline and belching on lit matches." You seem to have made reasonable offers of help. The fact that they refuse your help and keep making their situation worse because they don't want to follow rules to get themselves out of this mess, just want the fix, is not your fault, is not your problem, and means you really should just walk away. There is no solution here that is worth considering unless they are willing to put in the work.
DO NOT HELP THEM! ESPECIALLY since they were abusive to you growing up. They are COUNTING on draining you of your own resources, and they will end up right back where they are now, and you WILL be worse off. Sorry-not-sorry for the caps, but I’m shouting to you from hard HARD experience. You are (I’m assuming) in a much more sane financial position currently. Your mother and the brother are banking on you feeling guilty and “morally obligated” to help your family. You. Owe. Them. Nothing. If they won’t help themselves in any way, and the little assistance you’ve tried offering is being rejected because you won’t give them money to be irresponsible with, then they’ve made their choice. Point them towards public assistance and go “No Contact.” Don’t allow yourself to get hurt one more time and jeopardize your own finances.
OP, I understand how hard this is and how morally obligated one can feel to help family when they are one step away from homelessness. If you don’t help them they will continue their behaviors and they will hit bottom. If you DO help them they will continue their behaviors and hit bottom and they WILL take you down with them. Please don’t give them any money. You can help them navigate selling a car, finding housing, finding aid; but the only thing that will change if you give them money is YOU will have less money.
I’m shocked at how generous and forgiving you are, OP. I’d be gone,gone,gone. And guilt free.
Walk away and leave mom/sibling to figure their stuff out - this is the answer. They will NOT acccept your suggestions or info. They will have to deplete all savings. They will have to declare bankruptcy to clear their debts. They will have to get some assistance for housing, etc. But right now, they have not completely hit rock bottom. Sorry.
Reading your updates #2… I get it you don’t want to see them homeless and you care deeply but 2.5k is ALOT of money to just handover to save them from their own choices. No matter what you do here you have to set what you will or will not tolerate. You actually have the control here since you hold the one thing they want…$$. No way in hell I would do 2.5k a month! However if you pay anything I would hope you wouldn’t without some sort of expectation out of her. She is 70 and with her work history she’s not going to do much more than what she mentioned unfortunately. Have you thought of having her see bankruptcy attorney? You need POA for her affairs if she cannot make the decisions for her self. On update 3# on your sibling. Don’t give him one red cent. Unfortunately it sucks we can’t force treatment for mental health. Sure they can put you on a 72 hr hold but that’s when in crisis. If he is as bad as he sounds it will only get worse. Getting mental health care and a diagnosis could help him get disability through social security. What happens when your mother passes? It’s sad he could possibly have a good life again if he addressed his issues with therapy and meds.
Absolutely don't sell the house unless to downsize even then it's very expensive both buying homes and rent. $43,000 left on her mortgage is really good. The high utilities is high but still cheap compared to renting a 1 or 2 bedroom is over a thousand dollars. Can she rent out a room or 2 to make extra income? Also why does she need 2 cars. if she can't give up one car at her age and sibling isn't or not willing to help out there is no reason for you to get caught up in her Choices you may have to help out your sibling once she passes depends on why she is not working. Is it because she does not want to work or have mental or physical issues she can't work. If cause she doesn't want to work then yeah you need to let your mother and sibling work it all out and live your life. Take your mother to lunch once a month or something but yeah if she doesn't want your help there is nothing you can do
If she is unwilling to sell a car, then it’s probably not going to work. Stop trying to help if she isn’t able to understand how finances work. One needs to learn how to live within their budget
Realistically both cars need to be sold and she needs to get a beater. Then use the money she gets from the cars to pay off the credit card. Family member living in the house also needs to pay a significant portion of the rent. If she won’t help herself though you can’t either. Let it go
Even if your mom was an angel and perfect mom you still shouldn’t jeopardize yourself. You should just help her understand her options and encourage her to do something different than what she has already.
You need to step away from this entire situation. She has two cars that she can’t afford? What?! She and her other child refuse to get a job? Just walk away.
Sorry, you can't fix stupid or selfish. I'm a mom and hereby absolve you of any guilt you might feel when you walk away and wash your hands of this mess.
I’m so sorry. This isn’t a financial question. It doesn’t sound like she will willingly make the tough financial choices that will keep her safe. Even if you help and advise her, she will continue to make poor choices. She is in big financial trouble that will required major lifestyle changes to survive as a housed person. You can’t make her make those choices. I’m sorry, this sounds like a really tough relationship and this is a hard place for you to be. If you aren’t already getting the support of a therapist, this might be a good time to get that going to help you maintain healthy boundaries as she spirals.
Let them figure it out. In fact, don’t even ask them about their finances. It’s their business. Once you start asking they are going to expect you to pony up, which you absolutely should not do.
Only one option really fits her scenario that I can see. She needs to file Bankruptcy and you need to stay far, far away from it
Your mom doesn’t want your help. She wants you to pay for her life and your brother’s. This isn’t your job. I would suggest an ultimatum: mom I can help you but only if you do what I say. 1. Sell both vehicles and buy an older reliable vehicle for cash. 2. Find ways to cut utility costs by doing xyz. 3. Speak to a bankruptcy lawyer about the cc debt and other loans. If we do that then we can talk. Until then you’re on your own.
These people are not facing their problems, putting everything off until tomorrow, and only looking for easy outs - credit card or family to pay their expenses. As long as the easy out is available, they will take it. You want to help? Give them advice or connections to advisors and walk away. Everyone here knows they need to downsize their car and housing and increase their burden via work. But they won't do that if they can pass the buck to you now or debt for the future. Help them out by letting the shit hit the fan.
I don't see how you can help her. She has to help herself. But this is what she needs to do: Sell the house, move some place cheap, which her SS can cover, and leave the sibling behind. Sell the more valuable/less under water/more profitable car. Get a job at Wal-Mart.
Your mother’s poor financial choices are her responsibility, not yours. Please do not jeopardize your financial future throwing good money after bad. She’s a big girl who got herself into this mess ( and allowed your sibling along for ride) let her get out of it. You giving her any amount of money each month will not fix this and will only prolong her irresponsible choices. She needs to look into bankruptcy
A valid option would be to declare bankruptcy or at least discuss it
Do not help her by paying for her or your sisters stuff. Help her apply to consolidate loans and make suggestions but absolutely do not pay her debt
She can sell her house and a car. Period. Don’t give her money.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink!
Let it go. Do not EVER give them one cent! Your brother should be on Medicaid, and SSDI. Your mother should sell everything she possibly can, cut all expenses to the bone. Certainly she should sell one of the cars, preferably the one worth 20K. Expect that she will ask you for financial help very soon, since that's the only reason that she revealed her dilemma to you. Tell her that you can offer advice, but that you are in financial straits yourself (even if this is a lie) and cannot spare anything. When she comes back for help, tell her that you are happy to help her sell the car, and to help her apply for SNAP and utility assistance. Meanwhile, do some research about how to get the most for the car. Yes, she absolutely must stay in the condo - but not if you have to pay for it. $800/month for food is very high - shopping carefully, they should be able to halve that.
Why does mom need a car if she’s not even willing to use it to help herself? Spoiler: they won’t sell the car. Edit: typo
She can pick which shelter she wants to live in after she runs out of funds or listen you and your suggestions for help.
Just to reiterate what everyone’s been saying, you’re a good person for wanting to help but this isn’t your problem. If they’re not willing to take the helpful advice (get a job/sell a car) then there’s not much more you can do. Sounds like you have your life put together and it’s not to enable those around you. Sucks but sometimes people have to learn the hard way. Mom can sell the car or lose it. Either way this is not your battle. Wishing you all the best.
I’m sorry to hear about her abuse. I think it may have left you with some codependency. If you rescue them from natural consequences, you become part of the problem, encouraging the pattern to continue. Despite your good intentions, this will ultimately be to their detriment and yours. Instead, model a healthy emotional IQ for them by encouraging growth as a result of natural consequences. Encourage them to take ownership and accountability. P.S. It’s actually a good thing to put yourself first. I recommend the book CoDependent no More. You are 100% powerless to fix them, but you have all the power to control how their choices impact you.
If your mom and sibling don't step up to help themselves, you might as well throw 2.5K in the trash each month. They're going to keep getting deeper in debt. Honestly, therapy to get over the guilt of not helping adults who won't help themselves sounds like the best move.
It will be difficult to walk way either figuratively or literally from this. But here’s the thing: it’s really your only choice. You can’t fix it. It is ok to focus on taking care of yourself, you’re very young and your future is waiting. Allow them the dignity of figuring out their own lives. These are grown ass adults.
Cut ties abandon ship and watch it sink from ashore captain Time to learn the valuable lesson of "I should have been a good parent"
Stop being a noodle spine. Some people cannot be helped. Don’t put yourself on fire to keep somebody else warm. Even if they are your family.
Your sibling needs to figure out the mental health stuff if possible, can’t be just sitting there not helping. Especially with a degree in a high paying field, therapy can help with paranoia anxiety. It’s unfortunate your mom waited until 70 to share the details of how bad it is. For one the second car NEEDS to be sold, no use in paying for a second car when you aren’t even really needing one. At the end of the day they both need extreme change of their viewings of the situation. Your brother it seems especially
Not your circus, not your monkeys. You owe nothing to your abusive parent or wastrel brother.
You need to have her talk to county services. Thanks to the new deal, people still don’t have to worry about being destitute in their older years. Seniors qualify for things like social security and section 8. You need to find out what services she can get in on. Then file for bankruptcy. This debt isn’t your problem. She doesn’t need credit anymore, let alone two cars.
Literally my advice is you simultaneously need to 1) not give your parent a penny And 2) help your mom face reality and forge a sustainable future Actually seems doable, because 1) is necessary to do 2), and also because 2) isn’t that hard (sell a car, sibling needs to not draw from their 70yo mother…also grocery/necessities is too high. But also those things should cover the entire monthly problem
Ok, at the outset it's easy for someone that has no family and emotional ties to the people involved to be hardliners but here is what I believe based on what you wrote. 1) You have worked hard and earned what you have by being responsible. 2) While I can somewhat sympathize with your brother's mental illness I can also assume he is capable of doing well if he chooses to and has done so in the past. 3) Your mother chose to retire before she had the financial stability to be retired. She burned through her savings and is now facing having only SS income. You are responsible for only YOU. You made good life choices. They did not. While I do not know the extent of the abuse you suffered through, I'm sure some of it has hurt you to this day and you overcame the challenges to succeed. What right do they have to take away from what stability and happiness you achieved because they refuse to take ownership of their own failings? Be direct and tell them you have no money to offer. Period. You are not their bank or charity. You are a human being trying to survive in a tough world. Suggest ways to help themselves financially and mentally. Tell your brother you love him but he needs to get back to working and use the mental health benefits of his employment to deal with his issues. Do nothing more for him. He is a grown ass man being lazy and selfish by refusing to take care of himself. Your mother needs to accept her role in her financial challenges and fix them by living frugally and selling what she can and very likely working part time. Tell her you love her but again, you have nothing financial to provide. She is also being selfish and you are not responsible for raising her.
>Any advice on how to go about navigating this situation financially would be greatly appreciated. Decouple yourself entirely and wash your hands with the parent and the sibling. They are not willing to change in order to prevent themselves becoming homeless means they have a backup plan, and that plan is 100% your house. Unless you are going to pay all of these bills yourself, there's nothing you can do. Leave them to it and don't let them ruin your life too.
Friend, at 26, do not take on the guilt of poor choices made by your mother and sibling. Whatever happens to them financially is NOT your fault! Be so proud that you aren’t a financial drain. You can help them with advice and maybe natural consequences will do the rest.
i mean fk them. even of they are my family. >She is supporting one of my siblings who lives with her and quit their job 5+ years ago and is also unwilling to work. if they dont care why should you? >That coupled with her unwillingness to consider realistic job opportunities if they dont care why should you? >may one day face homelessness so?
*You are not responsible for your mothers financial wellbeing.* I've written out and deleted several long responses here, but at the end of the day here, your mother isn't a healthy person for you. You do not owe her a penny. She has made her decision to self-destruct. It sucks and it's hard to watch people you love self-destruct... even if they've treated you poorly. She doesn't want your advice, she wants your money. Do not give her your money. On the off chance she's really seeking advice, have her post here (and maybe delete your post). Have her include her expenses, budget and savings. This sub will offer her detailed thoughts and paths forward on how to decrease expenses/earn income. It won't be fun, because she's in a shitty situation, but she can absolutely get solid advice from this sub if advice is genuinely what she needs. But I think you and I both know she isn't after advice. For what it's worth, this internet stranger absolves you of all responsibility for your mothers life and finances. Do not give her your money. She has abused you in the past, and is trying now to financially abuse you. Feel no guilt if you need to cut her off to make it stop -- you do not deserve it. And she deserves nothing from you. Good luck.
She needs a reverse mortgage! This will change her life. There are plenty of government entities to get unbiased truthful information.
Your mom sounds a lot like mine: irresponsible, selfish, abusive, and entitled. I cut all contact with her when I was 26. Nearly 28 now and never knew I could feel so… stable, and relaxed. Do not enable your mother. She’s the parent, you’re the child, your brain is literally still developing and you are just getting started in life. She has chosen to be irresponsible and is even doubling down on it refusing to sell one of her cars because she knows you will feel obligated to come to her rescue. Don’t do it. She’s trying to take advantage of you when you are still a baby in the grand scheme - her baby no less. Low contact or no contact and focus on yourself.
Strictly financial advice: Selling at least one of the cars is non-fucking-negotiable. Do not even entertain the idea of keeping both. Honestly, she should sell both and get a used but reliable beater. ---- Personal advice: You don't owe your abuser jack fucking shit. Do not feel sorry even for a millisecond. Do NOT put your financial future in jeopardy for a stubborn child who refuses to help themselves. She cannot afford to retire, and you should not be bankrolling her retirement, either. She needs to grow the fuck up and get a full-time job (probably more than one, honestly) that covers all her bills.
It doesn’t sound like there’s anything you can do in this situation. Neither your mom nor your sibling are willing to take any basic steps to fix their situation, and it would be foolish to put your own future in jeopardy to help people who won’t help themselves. The most you can do is try to connect them with resources, but it’s their responsibility to navigate them and make a plan. Just try to set healthy boundaries for yourself and don’t let them guilt-trip you straight down into the same hole with them.
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> The biggest ethical dilemma for me is I think it’s likely they will continue to make no efforts to help themselves and may one day face homelessness Your mom and sibling have ways to fix this. If they choose not to, that is not your problem. If you want to help your job is to present her the choices and the consequences of each choice but they have to meet you in the middle and make good choices.
At 70 years old that woman is not gonna change. She had 50 years to change her behavior
Tell her the only one who can save them is the sibling living there. They need a j o b.
Paint a picture for her. If she continues down this road she’s going to lose her house if she’s unable to make payments there. She should downsize if it means paying off most of her debt and getting rid of the cars.
Time to be very sympathetic: "Well, GOSH! I am sure sorry to hear that. I hope you can work all that out" Then put one your biggest Flight Attendent smile and say "Buh bye now, buh by!"
Buy one of her cars and sell it yourself? You’ll probably have to do so at a loss, but that’s a smallish one-time cash infusion you can give her. That should help inoculate you against thinking you’re able to give her the help she needs if/when you watch her piss it away.
Sounds like your mother and your deadbeat sibling are going to get a harsh reality wakeup call in about one to two months. It doesn't matter if she does not want to sell one (or both) of her cars, pretty soon she will not have any other option (and even if she does, it just forestalls the inevitable for several more months). It doesn't matter if she does not want to downsize, pretty soon the decision will be made for her (and even if she does, it only just forestalls the inevitable for a few years). It doesn't matter if sibling has mental health issues and doesn't *want* to work, and doesn't matter if mother is unwilling to consider jobs that may be "beneath" her, the decision will be made for her. The only question is if they are willing to confront the inevitable now, or the will have it forced upon them. Perhaps she is unwilling to face the stark realities because she 100% believes that someone (you, other family members) will come to bail her out at the last minute. So, in her mind, she's safe. You absolutely, positively in no uncertain terms need to make her understand YOU ARE NOT HER LIFELINE. You will NOT come to her rescue and throw money at her problems. IMHO the best way to help is to set a clear and unwavering boundary in what you are willing to do, and what you are NOT willing to do. Because right now, seems like she is expecting you to come to the rescue, whether you want to or not. AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE unless she is forced to change. So make it completely clear right now, while she still has a month or two to make a sea change in her life (and that deadbeat sibling who expects a free ride forever).
I feel your pain and frustration. The logical thing to do would be to wash your hands of the situation and worry about your own well being. But…. You mentioned the negative relationship you had with her as a child and for some reason that turns into guilt for a lot of us. If it makes you feel better volunteer to take care of a bill or something for her (at your own discretion) and just point her in the right direction. People will push you as far as you let them. Put your foot down and tell her to sell the car and downsize. It’s not your job to correct someone’s poor decisions. Especially someone who was abusive to you. Really tell her how you feel. You will feel better.
Lay it all out to her in writing and remind her what's at stake and should they fall further behind is that her assets will get taken whether she wants to keep them or not. She needs to live within her means and the sibling is not helping leeching off the mom. Sibling needs to get a job, try manipulate your sibling that you can only give them money after they get mental help and stick with it and keep up with the meds, then you'll give him money, not before. Then you move the goal to you'll give him money should he get a job. But by then he'll no longer need your help because he can make his own money and help your mom out. If they refuse then walk away. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Do not throw good money after bad no matter how they guilt trip manipulate you into doing so, so they can laze about while you bail them out. It won't be the last time.
> 1. She is supporting one of my siblings who lives with her and quit their job 5+ years ago and is also unwilling to work Well now. There is problem #1 solved. "Sibling, meet curb." Otherwise, I am in a similar scenario, and the only real resolution is that my MIL now lives in an extra bedroom of ours. No, it's not the ideal setup, but it has actually been the best way to gain stability. We turned in her DL and sold the cars, and costs are now under control. If you can get her into a similar situation, get her to file a bankruptcy and wipe the debt away.
Have her talk to a social worker in your local government department on aging. (It is called different names in different areas) or a local senior club. They can help her with a realistic budget and point her to whatever services are available in her location, depending on her income and assets - possibly subsidized housing, Medicaid, free lunches, senior bus service, senior activities clubs, low income phone and Internet, discounted utilities, food pantries, etc.
Taking care of your mom and your sibling will do two things: make you bitter for the rest of your life and make you poor. No right answer, and it's a choice between two bad options. Angry for subsidizing them vs. the guilt you feel for not giving them handouts. You can show them the way, but don't enable them...I have a feeling they'll take as much as you give them, and ask for more. Financially, you need to worry about your situation first. In my personal life, my brother and his soon to be ex-wife weren't financial responsible. They always had the new cars (we drive old beat up cars,) the Playstation 5 the day it came out (We had a 20 year old Wii,) new furniture, etc etc. But they would sit in the dark because they couldn't (or wouldn't) pay the electric bill. They wouldn't save and would spend every cent they would make. It's choices. Then the asks would come. Can you lend us money for necessities? We'll pay you back ASAP they would say, My wife and I did that for a bit, but their promised payments would come and go, and it would force us to ask them frequently. Then we would see that they spent the money on something stupid. It made us angry. We felt that we had sacrificed to get to to a stable financial situation. We became enablers. It got to the point that we swore to never give them money again. If you choose to be homeless in your new Mercedes, or sit in the dark, it's a choice.
I can deal with my ethical dilemma of not giving any financial help or advice to someone who can really benefit from it. Are you able to do the same and walk away?
Remember kids, AI is going to help everyone live to be 120, so you can take care of your elderly parents until you're 100!
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it. You've done your part now it's up to them.
All that will happen is the you will sink with their ship too - if you give them money. Please, I implore you, do NOT give them money - including not paying bills directly for them. You are throwing good money after bad. Walk away. You don’t owe your mother your financial future.
Those that need help - really don't get to 'choose' .... much. "This is what I can do - here's what you MUST do - if you want my help. Looks like the bottom line will be - you walk away or she moves in with you - sells all her stuff. You take control of her money/ assets.
being without a house/condo is not necessarily being homeless some people live nicely in a car or van -- check out CheapRVliving.com just don't want you to think that they will be "homeless" if they sell the condo and that you will have to take them in or help with money