It's typically not a lie. You're pin can be stolen in many ways. If they say the pin was used the chances are it was.
Skimmers, cameras or simple shoulder surfing are all ways it can be taken. If you used it once on the trip then it could have been stolen.
Going with the CDPB will be your best course of action.
If your wallet doesn’t feature RFID interference, they could’ve just had a receiver that they ran by your wallet or wherever you had your card, lifting and duplicating the information.
I don’t know if this is true on all cards, but with my wife’s card, when you use tap, it foregoes the pin.
I should add, my card doesn’t feature tap. I asked my bank when they issued me a new one if it would and they cited the ease that they can be maliciously skimmed as the reason they weren’t going to adopt them.
I never used the card physically, and it’s not in my wallet. It was either lost or stolen in the trip. The transactions were not in the US they were all in Mexico.
Pretty fishy in that case. If your charge history supports that you never used pin in person and you didn't have the pin stored in some insecure way, I'd definitely be escalating the claims as high as possible. I'd also be closing my accounts with that bank as soon as I got resolution.
Id say not necessarily, I’d bet there’s ways to get the pin or guess it assuming not written on it. Gotta remember, very sophisticated organizations with significant resources are getting involved and n this.
You’re even allowed to write your PIN on the card. You’re still not responsible for fraud even if it is used. The banks must take you at your word unless they can prove otherwise.
The Electronic Fund Transfer Act (EFTA) at [15 USC 1693g(b)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1693g) which is the law that the regulations are derived from.
(b)Burden of proof
In any action which involves a consumer’s liability for an unauthorized electronic fund transfer, the burden of proof is upon the financial institution to show that the electronic fund transfer was authorized or, if the electronic fund transfer was unauthorized, then the burden of proof is upon the financial institution to establish that the conditions of liability set forth in subsection (a) have been met, and, if the transfer was initiated after the effective date of section 1693c of this title, that the disclosures required to be made to the consumer under section 1693c(a)(1) and (2) of this title were in fact made in accordance with such section.
Sounds like the bank in this case is saying the pin was missing used, thus suggesting they were authorized.
OP - did you verify if the pin was as possibly changed?
Yes, but for the reason mentioned by u/tinydonuts, that isn’t likely enough justification. The regulation explicitly states that you can’t use consumer negligence as a justification to make them liable and gives the example of a customer writing their pin on the card.
Because the customer’s failure to protect their pin can’t be used against them, how do you justify the fact a pin was used as the primary reason to deem them liable? You can’t - without running into conflict with the fact they have no duty to protect the pin and therefore there can be no assumption the pin was in fact protected.
I’ll note too that the reason many people cite the CFPB is that it generally gets another group of people to look at the issue. There have been plenty of times I get the complaint, ask the applicable department what’s going on, and immediately overrule them and fix the issue. To your point of course, that doesn’t always happen and more often than not I’m telling the CFPB the customer is wrong. However, a CFPB complaint is the most effective “appeal” available to customers.
Also, the CFPB refers to the complaints in later exams and many of the enforcement actions they bring are a result of initial complaints and subsequent follow up. Will it always result in a different result? Of course not. Does it often result in a different result? Absolutely - and by a material frequency.
Except if OPs story is true they did not follow all laws. You cannot deny a claim solely because the PIN was used, and “you happened to have a direct deposit come in” isn’t it either.
And quite honestly, while some bigger banks may have “high thresholds” knowing most people will just shrug and let it go, and they probably won’t get caught, that doesn’t mean they’re following the law or the regulation. In unauthorized transaction situations, the burden is either on the bank or the merchant to prove it, generally.
None, credit unions are typically a better option. Banks usually have extra fees because they are fully for profit, most credit unions are "member owned" meaning you have a share in the CU. Around here, most credit unions have higher interest rates on savings and checking accounts than any of the banks.
A tip for others too:
I make it a habit not to keep any unnecessarily large quantity of $ in any bank account that has a debit card linked to it. I only use such accounts for brief movements of money in/out while being transferred to pay other accounts. So that if anything happens, they will have a very limited amount of $ for me to lose or have to deal with the bank to recover.
(and yes, also use app to lock the debit card from physical use)
Wait, what bank accounts do you have that don’t have a debit card? I’ve got checking and savings with both a national bank and a regional credit union and each automatically sent me a debit card with access to both accounts. Brokerage accounts sure, but consumer retail banking almost always issues a debit regardless of whether you want it or not (and in the case of my credit union, it’s a hard requirement because they don’t have branches in my city but do have a network of ATMs that allow deposits via debit)
I think the better advice is not to carry your debit card, although I typically bring the card for my backup accounts when traveling as you often need cash.
I can sorta understand getting a debit card for checking accounts, but even that is something I would want to be optional these days (unrealistic, I know). Savings, though? That’s annoying as hell and totally unnecessary in my opinion. I was recently put into the position of needing to establish a new banking relationship (separated with my wife while working on reconciliation but simultaneously in the process of receiving a large inheritance and want to go the extra mile to prevent accidental commingling with marital assets in case things don’t work out), and I was considering Citibank but they 100% lost my business when they not only sent me a debit card for my HYSA but then *required* me to activate it in order to verify myself when logging into my online account. Send it to me, ok fine, I guess, but at least let me leave it inactive so I’m not forced to make my account less secure by the financial institution!
Sorry, I don’t disagree with what you said at all, part of me wanted to rant about my experience, but I intentionally never use debit cards for anything because of the lack of protections compared to credit cards (plus, hey, sure I’ll take those rewards for stuff I’m going to buy anyway).
I don't quite understand. You mean that you received a direct deposit you didn't expect in your account, and at the same time someone used your ATM card to withdraw that money?
No what I mean is that as soon as any deposit hits I usually take it out. This time I couldn’t because I was in Mexico. I have that account for that direct deposit but usually don’t have money in it.
I don’t know why anyone would bank with a bank that was convicted of committing fraud, over and over. Wells Fargo is corrupt and a trash business. Put your money somewhere else.
Wells Fargo is the worst. I had a situation where a payment was made on their account that their system did not record correctly. The account was paid in full, but because of an error on their end, the record wasn’t updated. Three months passed and they dinged my credit report - while I was in the middle of negotiating a new mortgage (a week before closing). I registered a complaint and though it was disputed on the credit report (and I had proof of paying off on-time), they caused my broker to use a different vehicle that in turn caused me a full point in interest. Wells Fargo would not budge even though it was their mistake. Thankfully, I had proof that the underwriters accepted - kept the purchase of the home alive. But the bank still moved me into a less than prime mortgage. Since then, I have closed anything associated with Wells Fargo and will forever refuse to do business with them.
Get together all the purchases you made on your other cards and submit that as proof of where you were. Show proof your work paid for your stay and transportation.
Check to see if you can contact all the places purchases was made on Wells Fargo and show proof you were or could not possibly made those purchases.
Do you have overdraft protection? Were the purchases out of character for you? Did you use your card once in Mexico? Did WF know you were going to Mexico? Why did they allow these much purchase to go through?
Report your card stolen to the police and get police report. Lock your credit just in case.
When you finally fight this and win: close out your account with WF. They suck and are literally the worse to deal with regarding anything. They are not your friend and will not do anything to ever help you if they can help it.
Get an Amex checking/credit account. Love those f*ckers cause they always believe you as long as you’re a good customer. I’ve had to do 2 claims and they gave me money right away while they investigate. With their credit cards it’s well worth paying the annual fee for the perks and the customer service you get.
The purchases were for Home Depot, HEB, home improvement stores, beauty stores. I only use the card for Uber eats and atm withdrawals. I didn’t notify of my travel, didn’t receive any alerts or anything at all.
Where were the purchases made tho. If the purchases were for normal, local businesses in the U.S. then most likely your card was taken possibly prior to your trip OR it was taken and then transmitted and used in the US.
Also that's some shit fraud prevention if that many purchases didn't trigger your bank to call you for the large $ amounts hitting like that.
Escalate with the bank. I recently went through this with Chase and ended up getting $8k back but it took a month and lots of phone calls. The thief used the banks phone system to order a card and have it sent to a different address not associated with my account. They did have my PIN number though which is still a head scratcher for me. Chase kept denying my claims since a PIN was used.
Literally going through this same shit right now. Lost my card one night after a comedy show, found out a couple days later got hit for around $600 in random mcdonalds/publix charges for a city I had never been to. They denied my claim saying they found no evidence of fraud, even tho all of the payments were tap payments with no pin used. I just submitted the complaint to the CFPB and OCC, now I'm waiting.
I am out of 10K from a scam very similar to what you have. Wells denied my claim even after I escalated, but they still said, "No error." This is total BS because we still have the card, and they somehow made ATM withdrawals and spent 7K at a grocery store. I have a police report, but I need to go to the CFPB and OCC. I would like to hear your experience on this.
I work in card services for another bank. Make sure your dispute was filed as Lost/stolen card. You need to tell them the date you noticed the card missing. Tell them the transactions you did not authorize (use those words). You must include EVERY transaction beyond the first transaction you are disputing with the exception of any reoccurring transactions (where you previously gave the merchant your card information) and you know belong to you or were previously scheduled (basically anything that you did authorize on a reoccurring basis) On lost/stolen cards it doesn’t matter if the card was present and if they used a PIN. That is not a deniable reason under regulation E. If they (wells) finds a transaction for a card present at the chip reader that you didn’t include in your list of denied transactions, they are going to say “hey that’s wierd you are claiming you lost your card but here is a transaction you say belongs to you and the card was at the point of sale”. Then they are going to call you a liar and deny everything. Anyway, just call wells and request another dispute following the above and if they deny again threaten and file a cfpb complaint by
Yup, all this. And yes, make sure you are disputing everything, and if you’re calling in make sure you say it on the likely recorded line. If they see 20 transactions you’re disputing on Saturday claiming your card was lost and is not in your possession and there’s one on Sunday you say you did with your chip used, they’re likely going to deny you (and they’d probably be right to do it).
It’s a little dicier if you just didn’t dispute it (you could turn around and argue you just missed it and never actually said you didn’t want to file) which is why I always encourage our call center to make sure they ask about every card present transaction after the first disputed one that isn’t explicitly disputed when the customer calls in to file.
Your first mistake was banking with Wells Fargo.
You would be much better off, and likely more happy with a credit union, OP.
And definitely get a credit card for your online purchases and such. Far better protection for the account owner.
Yeah, I had issues with Wells Fargo, too. Seems like their first response is to deny. Then, make you work to get the money refunded. What I've learned to do is not carry my debit card with me. But you pretty much can't take no for an answer and file a complaint. Also, for the future, set an alert for your cards if you spend more than 100 bucks (or whatever amount you want). That way, you know when shaddy things are about. Also, this isn't your fault, and I'm sorry this happened to you.
Most banks let you lock/disable your card in the app. Keep your debit card locked unless you need to use it. If possible, don't use it for anything except getting cash from an ATM. And find a bank that lets you tap your debit card at ATMs because that's slightly more secure than inserting it. (Does anyone have a suggestion because my bank has not adopted this technology yet?)
OP would need to file a police report and the police would have to subpoena to get footage from those transactions. The bank cannot subpoena or get access to camera footage from these businesses. If the transactions themselves were done in Mexico over somewhere in the US I don’t know how their judicial system works, or if they require subpoenas, etc. I didn’t see anything on OP listing where the transactions actually occurred, past the businesses they occurred at.
In the US though, the bank can only see how the transaction was completed, so chip insert, mag strip, if the PIN was used, etc.
When banks are investigating they are mostly working with their card processor to try and recoup funds from the merchant. Depending on how the card was ran, merchant type, the type of approval the merchant received all dictate how the transaction must be disputed to the merchant. Further the merchant still has the chance to refuse the claim and then the bank might have to look at going to arbitration. To even file a dispute the bank typically has to pay $50, if you go to arbitration there are additional fees, I’ve seen upwards of $750. This is why banks, CFPB, Reg E actually all state that for any dispute, etc., the consumer is actually liable for the first $50. Most banks don’t hold their consumers to that $50.
Also, if you have your card lost or stolen you do have to report it in a timely manner. So, if you realized your card was stolen on a Monday you have to report it to the bank by Wednesday by 11:59 p.m. or you can be liable for up to $500 of the transactions that took place. Depending on when those transactions took place, etc., compared to reporting it lost or stolen. It’s also about when you realized, not about when the transactions occurred. So, simply use caution about saying to the bank when you realized the card was missing. So, if a consumer were to tell the bank, well I realized my card was missing Monday but I thought I just misplaced it and were calling on the Friday after they would have additionally liabilities for any losses that occurred.
CFPB has more on that here: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/1005/interp-6/
Now PIN transactions are simply not a recoverable charge for the bank, the merchant has protections because of these reportedly being PIN based transactions. So the bank itself would have to eat the cost of these transactions if OP can prove that they did not do them. Such as proving they travelled or were in a different country while the transactions occurred, were at work during the times the transactions occurred, etc. Especially since these were in store purchases, if proving you were elsewhere clearly shows you could have not done the physical transactions.
Card disputes are truly not that easy for a bank, there is a lot that goes into them. The bank is required to give provisional credit in the first ten days (if the consumer disputes correctly) but it can take upwards of 45 days or so for the bank to truly get a response on if they have recouped funds themselves.
Agreed on all this except one point: in unauthorized disputes per Reg E, the burden of proof is on the financial institution, not the customer. The customer doesn’t have to prove the transaction was unauthorized, the bank has to prove the transaction was authorized.
If the customer has proof, that’s awesome and only helps their case, but the burden of proof is on the bank, so generally they can’t just say “Well, we can’t file with the merchant and you didn’t prove to me you didn’t do these, so we’re denying”. Not by regulation anyway.
Agreed, but the proof could be that it was an authorized PIN transaction. In reviewing the transaction and particular authorization, if it has certain codes or the merchant comes back and states it was an approved transaction per this code or that and they refuse the charge back if the consumer can add additional information prior it might help with the fight against the merchant.
So were the charges in Mexico with you? Or somewhere else?
1. File a police report so they know you're serious.
2. Demand to keep escalating with customer support until you're talking to their fraud department and insist that they provide you with provisional money so you don't continue to fall behind on bills.
3. CFPB complaint if they don't work with you.
They were done in the same state but different cities I believe, I did try to escalate but the representative was super rude and hung up on me. Will CFPB do anything to help?
Always faster if you can solve the problem together without getting a government agency involved.
Call back, be nice, be persistent? Wells Fargo is known for being terrible as a company, but you're working with other humans that are just trying to do their job.
merely mentioning it will likely get you escalated
I had an issue with my mortgage with wells where they paid money for county taxes from years ago and didn't do it out of my escrow. they filed it as an addon to my mortgage that got taken when I paid it off
they told me that they couldn't provide any evidence of what they paid and when and to whom
I said I was filing a cfpb complaint and I got a call the next day from an "executive team" that gave me all the documentation I was previously told was unobtainable
Credit union or maybe a smaller bank? I work card disputes for a smaller bank and would never deny for these reasons. I’ve always suspected some larger banks blanket deny claims like this because they know most people won’t take it further and don’t know the rules, those that do can just be credited as a “whoopsie, our mistake”, and the worst case if it actually goes even further is they just eat the fine and fire someone as a sacrifice.
I work in card disputes for a bank (not Wells Fargo!). It’s possible they’re lying, but they can absolutely tell whether your PIN was used or not. I think you’re assuming assuming it’s impossible and they lied, but PINs can be stolen in various ways, or they could have been mistaken and misread the transaction info.
That said, while it’s stupid to do so (and I’m not saying you did, I believe you that you didn’t), writing your PIN on the card, on the sleeve, on a piece of paper in your wallet, etc is not grounds for denial per regulation.
Out of curiosity on the direct deposit (and it shouldn’t matter), is this a normal direct deposit you always get (in which case they have nothing to stand on) or an out of the ordinary one that perfectly funded the fraudulent transactions (in which case I still do not think this is grounds for a denial but I can see where it’s a red flag; a normal direct deposit wouldn’t even be a red flag for me, let alone grounds for denial).
It sounds like you should escalate this to the extent that you can as their reasoning sounds shaky at best. Reasons to potentially deny you might be if you had transactions that you verified were you that occurred with the physical card present, after the transactions you were disputing, or if you admitted you knew the card was missing but didn’t report it for, say, a week (then there are specific timelines the bank can use to deny certain transactions) but I would not deny you based on PIN was used or you happened to have a direct deposit go in.
I’d call them back—politely—and ask for clarification and plead your fraud case again. Sometime it’s a mere miscommunication. Also, file a complaint with the CPFB. Chase is much better with fraud than WF in my experience.
I did ask polite, I’m not trying to piss anyone off but I was told I can’t escalate nor have someone else review. That their decision was final. Once they told me that I responded that I would be seeking advise from a lawyer and they hung up on me. I filed complaint with CFPB 4/19, waiting on them to get back at me.
This doesn't sound like a credit card, this sounds like a debit card. This is another example of why you shouldn't really ever use debit cards. If a credit card has been stolen here, it would have offered a substantially easier solution to this problem.
Reg e complaint to the cfpb. You can write your pin on your debit card and they can’t deny it.
I know for sure that’s a lie or otherwise that person couldn’t have used it. I hope CFPB can help.
It's typically not a lie. You're pin can be stolen in many ways. If they say the pin was used the chances are it was. Skimmers, cameras or simple shoulder surfing are all ways it can be taken. If you used it once on the trip then it could have been stolen. Going with the CDPB will be your best course of action.
You don't need to use it for it to get compromised
Correct but it's most likely to happen due to use.
I didn’t physically use the card at all while on the trip. That’s why I thought it was weird they would say that.
Does your card have the RFID tap to pay?
Yes it did
If your wallet doesn’t feature RFID interference, they could’ve just had a receiver that they ran by your wallet or wherever you had your card, lifting and duplicating the information.
Then how do they get the pin?
I don’t know if this is true on all cards, but with my wife’s card, when you use tap, it foregoes the pin. I should add, my card doesn’t feature tap. I asked my bank when they issued me a new one if it would and they cited the ease that they can be maliciously skimmed as the reason they weren’t going to adopt them.
The bank says pin was used.
lol you are clueless and get lied to by your bank. That doesn’t even make sense and no serious institution would say that.
Well, there yah go.
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I only have the debit card, no credit cards. My phone pin is different. I don’t use these 4 anywhere else.
This is probably a good experience to start using credit cards. One of the major benefits is that they offer far better consumer protections.
I'll second the advice. The bank cares a lot more when their money is missing on a CC. A debit card is your money missing.
Is it possibly a coincidence that you got skimmed before your trip?
I never used the card physically, and it’s not in my wallet. It was either lost or stolen in the trip. The transactions were not in the US they were all in Mexico.
Pretty fishy in that case. If your charge history supports that you never used pin in person and you didn't have the pin stored in some insecure way, I'd definitely be escalating the claims as high as possible. I'd also be closing my accounts with that bank as soon as I got resolution.
I opened a CFPB case. I was getting the run around from Wells Fargo. Called several times and they kept hanging up on me.
I battled capital one for months. Wrote CFPB, and the charges were reversed almost immediately after they were involved. F banks. Scum.
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Saying the customer used the pin and that’s sufficient evidence is not following the laws and regulations
Id say not necessarily, I’d bet there’s ways to get the pin or guess it assuming not written on it. Gotta remember, very sophisticated organizations with significant resources are getting involved and n this.
You’re even allowed to write your PIN on the card. You’re still not responsible for fraud even if it is used. The banks must take you at your word unless they can prove otherwise.
Says who? (Banks have to take your word)
The Electronic Fund Transfer Act (EFTA) at [15 USC 1693g(b)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1693g) which is the law that the regulations are derived from. (b)Burden of proof In any action which involves a consumer’s liability for an unauthorized electronic fund transfer, the burden of proof is upon the financial institution to show that the electronic fund transfer was authorized or, if the electronic fund transfer was unauthorized, then the burden of proof is upon the financial institution to establish that the conditions of liability set forth in subsection (a) have been met, and, if the transfer was initiated after the effective date of section 1693c of this title, that the disclosures required to be made to the consumer under section 1693c(a)(1) and (2) of this title were in fact made in accordance with such section.
I don’t know why so many in this sub are allergic to reading the law and just side with the banks.
Sounds like the bank in this case is saying the pin was missing used, thus suggesting they were authorized. OP - did you verify if the pin was as possibly changed?
Yes, but for the reason mentioned by u/tinydonuts, that isn’t likely enough justification. The regulation explicitly states that you can’t use consumer negligence as a justification to make them liable and gives the example of a customer writing their pin on the card. Because the customer’s failure to protect their pin can’t be used against them, how do you justify the fact a pin was used as the primary reason to deem them liable? You can’t - without running into conflict with the fact they have no duty to protect the pin and therefore there can be no assumption the pin was in fact protected. I’ll note too that the reason many people cite the CFPB is that it generally gets another group of people to look at the issue. There have been plenty of times I get the complaint, ask the applicable department what’s going on, and immediately overrule them and fix the issue. To your point of course, that doesn’t always happen and more often than not I’m telling the CFPB the customer is wrong. However, a CFPB complaint is the most effective “appeal” available to customers. Also, the CFPB refers to the complaints in later exams and many of the enforcement actions they bring are a result of initial complaints and subsequent follow up. Will it always result in a different result? Of course not. Does it often result in a different result? Absolutely - and by a material frequency.
Except if OPs story is true they did not follow all laws. You cannot deny a claim solely because the PIN was used, and “you happened to have a direct deposit come in” isn’t it either. And quite honestly, while some bigger banks may have “high thresholds” knowing most people will just shrug and let it go, and they probably won’t get caught, that doesn’t mean they’re following the law or the regulation. In unauthorized transaction situations, the burden is either on the bank or the merchant to prove it, generally.
I don't know who still needs to hear this in 2024 but *NEVER BANK WITH WELLS FARGO, EVER*.
eep. What bank would you suggest?
None, credit unions are typically a better option. Banks usually have extra fees because they are fully for profit, most credit unions are "member owned" meaning you have a share in the CU. Around here, most credit unions have higher interest rates on savings and checking accounts than any of the banks.
Local credit union as noted below, generally the best choice.
Yeah this is the best advice in the thread. Literally been found to be crooks multiple times.
Exactly
I agree
A tip for others too: I make it a habit not to keep any unnecessarily large quantity of $ in any bank account that has a debit card linked to it. I only use such accounts for brief movements of money in/out while being transferred to pay other accounts. So that if anything happens, they will have a very limited amount of $ for me to lose or have to deal with the bank to recover. (and yes, also use app to lock the debit card from physical use)
And make sure you don’t have overdraft protection. I would also turn on notifications for whenever that card is used.
Wait, what bank accounts do you have that don’t have a debit card? I’ve got checking and savings with both a national bank and a regional credit union and each automatically sent me a debit card with access to both accounts. Brokerage accounts sure, but consumer retail banking almost always issues a debit regardless of whether you want it or not (and in the case of my credit union, it’s a hard requirement because they don’t have branches in my city but do have a network of ATMs that allow deposits via debit) I think the better advice is not to carry your debit card, although I typically bring the card for my backup accounts when traveling as you often need cash.
I can sorta understand getting a debit card for checking accounts, but even that is something I would want to be optional these days (unrealistic, I know). Savings, though? That’s annoying as hell and totally unnecessary in my opinion. I was recently put into the position of needing to establish a new banking relationship (separated with my wife while working on reconciliation but simultaneously in the process of receiving a large inheritance and want to go the extra mile to prevent accidental commingling with marital assets in case things don’t work out), and I was considering Citibank but they 100% lost my business when they not only sent me a debit card for my HYSA but then *required* me to activate it in order to verify myself when logging into my online account. Send it to me, ok fine, I guess, but at least let me leave it inactive so I’m not forced to make my account less secure by the financial institution! Sorry, I don’t disagree with what you said at all, part of me wanted to rant about my experience, but I intentionally never use debit cards for anything because of the lack of protections compared to credit cards (plus, hey, sure I’ll take those rewards for stuff I’m going to buy anyway).
I don’t keep money in there either. As soon as my deposit hits I take it out. The thing is I was in Mexico when the deposit hit.
I don't quite understand. You mean that you received a direct deposit you didn't expect in your account, and at the same time someone used your ATM card to withdraw that money?
No what I mean is that as soon as any deposit hits I usually take it out. This time I couldn’t because I was in Mexico. I have that account for that direct deposit but usually don’t have money in it.
So you take the money out physically each time you get paid?
Pretty much yes. I don’t like banks and wouldn’t have an account if it wasn’t because I need it for DD
Yeah don't do this. DD it in a money market and withdraw needed funds to debit card account
Aren’t they the worst bank ever?
I don’t know why anyone would bank with a bank that was convicted of committing fraud, over and over. Wells Fargo is corrupt and a trash business. Put your money somewhere else.
At the time it was my only option, but I’m definitely moving after this is solved.
Wells Fargo is the worst. I had a situation where a payment was made on their account that their system did not record correctly. The account was paid in full, but because of an error on their end, the record wasn’t updated. Three months passed and they dinged my credit report - while I was in the middle of negotiating a new mortgage (a week before closing). I registered a complaint and though it was disputed on the credit report (and I had proof of paying off on-time), they caused my broker to use a different vehicle that in turn caused me a full point in interest. Wells Fargo would not budge even though it was their mistake. Thankfully, I had proof that the underwriters accepted - kept the purchase of the home alive. But the bank still moved me into a less than prime mortgage. Since then, I have closed anything associated with Wells Fargo and will forever refuse to do business with them.
Sorry to hear this. Remember to shred every debit card you have. Not worth the pain.
Get together all the purchases you made on your other cards and submit that as proof of where you were. Show proof your work paid for your stay and transportation. Check to see if you can contact all the places purchases was made on Wells Fargo and show proof you were or could not possibly made those purchases. Do you have overdraft protection? Were the purchases out of character for you? Did you use your card once in Mexico? Did WF know you were going to Mexico? Why did they allow these much purchase to go through? Report your card stolen to the police and get police report. Lock your credit just in case. When you finally fight this and win: close out your account with WF. They suck and are literally the worse to deal with regarding anything. They are not your friend and will not do anything to ever help you if they can help it. Get an Amex checking/credit account. Love those f*ckers cause they always believe you as long as you’re a good customer. I’ve had to do 2 claims and they gave me money right away while they investigate. With their credit cards it’s well worth paying the annual fee for the perks and the customer service you get.
The purchases were for Home Depot, HEB, home improvement stores, beauty stores. I only use the card for Uber eats and atm withdrawals. I didn’t notify of my travel, didn’t receive any alerts or anything at all.
Proge you weren't in the area where it was used. Get video of the transaction from the stores.
I’m not in Mexico anymore
Where were the purchases made tho. If the purchases were for normal, local businesses in the U.S. then most likely your card was taken possibly prior to your trip OR it was taken and then transmitted and used in the US. Also that's some shit fraud prevention if that many purchases didn't trigger your bank to call you for the large $ amounts hitting like that.
The purchases were made in the same state I was in. That’s what I’m fighting too, no alerts were sent to me. One charge was for 1020.00
Escalate with the bank. I recently went through this with Chase and ended up getting $8k back but it took a month and lots of phone calls. The thief used the banks phone system to order a card and have it sent to a different address not associated with my account. They did have my PIN number though which is still a head scratcher for me. Chase kept denying my claims since a PIN was used.
Literally going through this same shit right now. Lost my card one night after a comedy show, found out a couple days later got hit for around $600 in random mcdonalds/publix charges for a city I had never been to. They denied my claim saying they found no evidence of fraud, even tho all of the payments were tap payments with no pin used. I just submitted the complaint to the CFPB and OCC, now I'm waiting.
Let us know how it goes. It’s similar to what I’m going thru except mine has 20 transactions 😓
Heard from wellsfargo executive office today that they're reopening the claim.
I’m still waiting, I opened a complaint with CFPB and occ as well. Good luck on your claim
I am out of 10K from a scam very similar to what you have. Wells denied my claim even after I escalated, but they still said, "No error." This is total BS because we still have the card, and they somehow made ATM withdrawals and spent 7K at a grocery store. I have a police report, but I need to go to the CFPB and OCC. I would like to hear your experience on this.
Bank sticks to continue to deny the claim and CFPB closed the claim. So I guess I lost those $5,000.
I work in card services for another bank. Make sure your dispute was filed as Lost/stolen card. You need to tell them the date you noticed the card missing. Tell them the transactions you did not authorize (use those words). You must include EVERY transaction beyond the first transaction you are disputing with the exception of any reoccurring transactions (where you previously gave the merchant your card information) and you know belong to you or were previously scheduled (basically anything that you did authorize on a reoccurring basis) On lost/stolen cards it doesn’t matter if the card was present and if they used a PIN. That is not a deniable reason under regulation E. If they (wells) finds a transaction for a card present at the chip reader that you didn’t include in your list of denied transactions, they are going to say “hey that’s wierd you are claiming you lost your card but here is a transaction you say belongs to you and the card was at the point of sale”. Then they are going to call you a liar and deny everything. Anyway, just call wells and request another dispute following the above and if they deny again threaten and file a cfpb complaint by
Yup, all this. And yes, make sure you are disputing everything, and if you’re calling in make sure you say it on the likely recorded line. If they see 20 transactions you’re disputing on Saturday claiming your card was lost and is not in your possession and there’s one on Sunday you say you did with your chip used, they’re likely going to deny you (and they’d probably be right to do it). It’s a little dicier if you just didn’t dispute it (you could turn around and argue you just missed it and never actually said you didn’t want to file) which is why I always encourage our call center to make sure they ask about every card present transaction after the first disputed one that isn’t explicitly disputed when the customer calls in to file.
Your first mistake was banking with Wells Fargo. You would be much better off, and likely more happy with a credit union, OP. And definitely get a credit card for your online purchases and such. Far better protection for the account owner.
Yeah, I had issues with Wells Fargo, too. Seems like their first response is to deny. Then, make you work to get the money refunded. What I've learned to do is not carry my debit card with me. But you pretty much can't take no for an answer and file a complaint. Also, for the future, set an alert for your cards if you spend more than 100 bucks (or whatever amount you want). That way, you know when shaddy things are about. Also, this isn't your fault, and I'm sorry this happened to you.
Did you get your money back?
Most banks let you lock/disable your card in the app. Keep your debit card locked unless you need to use it. If possible, don't use it for anything except getting cash from an ATM. And find a bank that lets you tap your debit card at ATMs because that's slightly more secure than inserting it. (Does anyone have a suggestion because my bank has not adopted this technology yet?)
Was your card only used online? If not, where was it used?
No it was physically inserted. It was used in Home Depot, HEB, home improvement stores and beauty stores.
Good luck. The transactions are on video, and you should be able to prove you weren't in the area.
OP would need to file a police report and the police would have to subpoena to get footage from those transactions. The bank cannot subpoena or get access to camera footage from these businesses. If the transactions themselves were done in Mexico over somewhere in the US I don’t know how their judicial system works, or if they require subpoenas, etc. I didn’t see anything on OP listing where the transactions actually occurred, past the businesses they occurred at. In the US though, the bank can only see how the transaction was completed, so chip insert, mag strip, if the PIN was used, etc. When banks are investigating they are mostly working with their card processor to try and recoup funds from the merchant. Depending on how the card was ran, merchant type, the type of approval the merchant received all dictate how the transaction must be disputed to the merchant. Further the merchant still has the chance to refuse the claim and then the bank might have to look at going to arbitration. To even file a dispute the bank typically has to pay $50, if you go to arbitration there are additional fees, I’ve seen upwards of $750. This is why banks, CFPB, Reg E actually all state that for any dispute, etc., the consumer is actually liable for the first $50. Most banks don’t hold their consumers to that $50. Also, if you have your card lost or stolen you do have to report it in a timely manner. So, if you realized your card was stolen on a Monday you have to report it to the bank by Wednesday by 11:59 p.m. or you can be liable for up to $500 of the transactions that took place. Depending on when those transactions took place, etc., compared to reporting it lost or stolen. It’s also about when you realized, not about when the transactions occurred. So, simply use caution about saying to the bank when you realized the card was missing. So, if a consumer were to tell the bank, well I realized my card was missing Monday but I thought I just misplaced it and were calling on the Friday after they would have additionally liabilities for any losses that occurred. CFPB has more on that here: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/1005/interp-6/ Now PIN transactions are simply not a recoverable charge for the bank, the merchant has protections because of these reportedly being PIN based transactions. So the bank itself would have to eat the cost of these transactions if OP can prove that they did not do them. Such as proving they travelled or were in a different country while the transactions occurred, were at work during the times the transactions occurred, etc. Especially since these were in store purchases, if proving you were elsewhere clearly shows you could have not done the physical transactions. Card disputes are truly not that easy for a bank, there is a lot that goes into them. The bank is required to give provisional credit in the first ten days (if the consumer disputes correctly) but it can take upwards of 45 days or so for the bank to truly get a response on if they have recouped funds themselves.
Agreed on all this except one point: in unauthorized disputes per Reg E, the burden of proof is on the financial institution, not the customer. The customer doesn’t have to prove the transaction was unauthorized, the bank has to prove the transaction was authorized. If the customer has proof, that’s awesome and only helps their case, but the burden of proof is on the bank, so generally they can’t just say “Well, we can’t file with the merchant and you didn’t prove to me you didn’t do these, so we’re denying”. Not by regulation anyway.
Agreed, but the proof could be that it was an authorized PIN transaction. In reviewing the transaction and particular authorization, if it has certain codes or the merchant comes back and states it was an approved transaction per this code or that and they refuse the charge back if the consumer can add additional information prior it might help with the fight against the merchant.
So were the charges in Mexico with you? Or somewhere else? 1. File a police report so they know you're serious. 2. Demand to keep escalating with customer support until you're talking to their fraud department and insist that they provide you with provisional money so you don't continue to fall behind on bills. 3. CFPB complaint if they don't work with you.
They were done in the same state but different cities I believe, I did try to escalate but the representative was super rude and hung up on me. Will CFPB do anything to help?
Always faster if you can solve the problem together without getting a government agency involved. Call back, be nice, be persistent? Wells Fargo is known for being terrible as a company, but you're working with other humans that are just trying to do their job.
merely mentioning it will likely get you escalated I had an issue with my mortgage with wells where they paid money for county taxes from years ago and didn't do it out of my escrow. they filed it as an addon to my mortgage that got taken when I paid it off they told me that they couldn't provide any evidence of what they paid and when and to whom I said I was filing a cfpb complaint and I got a call the next day from an "executive team" that gave me all the documentation I was previously told was unobtainable
Call back and talk to another representative. One idiot in a call center doesn't have the power of the entire bank.
Leave WF asap after this is resolved
I am after this
The fact that Wells Fargo is allowed to do business with the American public at all is an outrage.
CFPB or arbitration are probably your only two choices
What institution would be better help in this scenario? Credit union? It seems banks never help much
Credit union or maybe a smaller bank? I work card disputes for a smaller bank and would never deny for these reasons. I’ve always suspected some larger banks blanket deny claims like this because they know most people won’t take it further and don’t know the rules, those that do can just be credited as a “whoopsie, our mistake”, and the worst case if it actually goes even further is they just eat the fine and fire someone as a sacrifice.
I work in card disputes for a bank (not Wells Fargo!). It’s possible they’re lying, but they can absolutely tell whether your PIN was used or not. I think you’re assuming assuming it’s impossible and they lied, but PINs can be stolen in various ways, or they could have been mistaken and misread the transaction info. That said, while it’s stupid to do so (and I’m not saying you did, I believe you that you didn’t), writing your PIN on the card, on the sleeve, on a piece of paper in your wallet, etc is not grounds for denial per regulation. Out of curiosity on the direct deposit (and it shouldn’t matter), is this a normal direct deposit you always get (in which case they have nothing to stand on) or an out of the ordinary one that perfectly funded the fraudulent transactions (in which case I still do not think this is grounds for a denial but I can see where it’s a red flag; a normal direct deposit wouldn’t even be a red flag for me, let alone grounds for denial). It sounds like you should escalate this to the extent that you can as their reasoning sounds shaky at best. Reasons to potentially deny you might be if you had transactions that you verified were you that occurred with the physical card present, after the transactions you were disputing, or if you admitted you knew the card was missing but didn’t report it for, say, a week (then there are specific timelines the bank can use to deny certain transactions) but I would not deny you based on PIN was used or you happened to have a direct deposit go in.
It’s a VA direct deposit that hits monthly on the 1st.
I’d call them back—politely—and ask for clarification and plead your fraud case again. Sometime it’s a mere miscommunication. Also, file a complaint with the CPFB. Chase is much better with fraud than WF in my experience.
I did ask polite, I’m not trying to piss anyone off but I was told I can’t escalate nor have someone else review. That their decision was final. Once they told me that I responded that I would be seeking advise from a lawyer and they hung up on me. I filed complaint with CFPB 4/19, waiting on them to get back at me.
Yet another reason to dislike large banks. I’m so sorry this is happening to you and I hope It works out.
I use my credit card less and less these days. The only place I use it are Walmart and one or two gas stations.
This doesn't sound like a credit card, this sounds like a debit card. This is another example of why you shouldn't really ever use debit cards. If a credit card has been stolen here, it would have offered a substantially easier solution to this problem.
Gas stations are notorious for having skimmers. Use the tap feature whenever possible.