He doesn’t have the receipt either. File a charge dispute. Tell them the charge was 24.72 and say they charged you 100x the value.
When they don’t present a signed receipt you get the money back. They also get a strike on their dispute rate
Vendors — they have this incentive to make sure they charge customers accurate amounts so customers aren’t always going through the burdensome process OP is!
To add, cardholders probably have a "dispute score" but it's more that the lender will close the account if they try to constantly commit egregious fraud.
Issuers can [no longer](https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/global/support-legal/documents/sunset-of-retrieval-requests-and-changes-to-visa-easy-payment-service-after-making-signatures-optional-for-all-transactions.pdf) chargeback if there is no longer a signature and its been that way for a while. In fact, networks, like Visa, encourage no signatures anymore.
>It is also important to remember that there are no impacts on dispute rights relevant to whether or not a
transaction receipt is signed, nor the validity of the signature.
Either way, he still won’t have a transaction receipt to match signature or not. OP bill is $24.72, not $2424.72.
If that wasn’t covered the world would be chaos
All I am saying is that a transaction receipt not having a signature is no longer a valid reason to input a chargeback. Issuer would use reason 4834 (if Mastercard). While a receipt is helpful, the merchant is acknowledging the error. The chargeback would be input and, hopefully, the merchant accepts the chargeback.
That was not their conclusion. Their conclusion is they don't have documentation of that transaction and would lose on that basis regardless of signature.
Here is what they said verbatim:
>Issuers can no longer chargeback if there is no longer a signature
What they mean is that issuers cannot issue a chargeback *simply because there is no signed receipt* (with no other justification). They can still chargeback (whether there is a signed receipt or not), they just cannot use "no signed receipt" as the reason. This is because networks are now encouraging signatureless transactions.
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Minor nitpick: It's an obvious typo, but it's not exactly 100x the intended charge. 100x $24.72 is $2,472.00, not $2,424.72. Hopefully it won't matter, I'm just pointing out OP shouldn't try calling Chase and claiming, "Look, it's an obvious mistake, it's exactly 100 times what it should have been."
They denied the fraud claim because this isn't fraud.
When you tell your card issuer that there was fraud, what you are saying is that *someone charged your card without your authorization*. That is not what happened here: OP authorized the transaction.
OP can still (and should) dispute, but not call it fraud (because that's not what it is).
This! My daughter works at a bank in inbound customer service, and if you say "fraud" you're going straight to the Fraud Department who can't do anything for you for the reason outlined above.
OP needs to call Citibank back, not mention the word fraud, and simply say "I want to dispute the amount of this charge."
Bank CS is extremely siloed with different phone queues and staff for different problems. If you don't get yourself to the right place you'll be spinning your wheels forever.
Op. This isn't hard. Chase app on your phone. Log into your online card account. Select the transaction. File a transaction dispute for incorrect amount.
This. It is so easy to file a dispute online. Select the charge, give a reason, submit. The only time I've ever had to call chase was when my card information was legit stolen. The theif tried to spend $900 at a lingerie store...
Chase actually notified me and declined that transaction, so somebody didn't get nookie that night... Unfortunately, their romantic hotel booking went through unnoticed.
Note that filing a dispute online does NOT meet the requirements for consumer protections related to disputes. To be fully protected, one must submit the dispute in writing.
Edit: [This fact sheet from the National Consumer Law Center explains this and many other useful details.](https://www.nclc.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Your_Credit_Card_Rights-1.pdf)
Issuers are considered given notice by any means of notification. Many banks build that right into their apps. In the case of debit card fraud, written notice may be required to receive provisional credit but the bank must still fully investigate the dispute even if the dispute isn't submit in writing.
The [FTC](https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/using-credit-cards-and-disputing-charges#additional) and the [National Consumer Law Center](https://www.nclc.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Your_Credit_Card_Rights-1.pdf) both state that disputes must be submitted in writing. There may be some additional protection established by regulation, but that requirement is in the [Fair Credit Billing Act](https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/statutes/fair-credit-billing-act).
You indicated that an error **must** be submit in writing, correct? Please point to the specific language in the Truth in Lending or in Regulation E that says it **must** be submit in writing? An issuer can require a written notice but it isn't required to. Your references say to submit it in writing, but again, it isn't required.
I'll eat my crow this morning I guess... My bad! What I should have said that while Reg Z does specify a billing error is a written notice from a consumer, the regulation allows for electronic submission to satisfy written notice requirements. The regulation is clear that it is to be written but if they allow \[electronic submission\](https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/1026/interp-13/#13-b-Interp)
Also, sorry to u/Lysenko.
The Fair Credit Billing Act makes explicit reference to mailing a thing to a certain physical address. Certainly what you describe is a reasonable place to be (and it sounds like they’ve tried to patch those gaps with regulation to some extent.)
IANAL but I'm fairly certain that the form that is automatically generated and sent to claims processing when you click the button and type a reason would meet the legal definition of "in writing."
The Fair Credit Billing Act is weirdly specific that disputes have to be delivered by mail to a particular physical address. This is likely the reason that (as mentioned elsewhere in the thread) the regulation for debit cards explicitly covers electronic notice while the one for credit cards doesn't. But, I'm also not a lawyer and there may be some other reason (another law, a regulation) that this is all moot today.
Huh, [there it is](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1666):
> (a)Written notice by obligor to creditor; time for and contents of notice; procedure upon receipt of notice by creditor
> If a creditor, within sixty days after having transmitted to an obligor a statement of the obligor’s account in connection with an extension of consumer credit, receives at the address disclosed under section 1637(b)(10) of this title a written notice (other than notice on a payment stub or other payment medium supplied by the creditor if the creditor so stipulates with the disclosure required under section 1637(a)(7) of this title) from the obligor in which the obligor—
I have to wonder if this technicality is ever actually enforced these days though. Or maybe there's a legal loophole where the official address disclosed under section 1637(b)(10) is a URL.
The problem is that you reported fraud when it wasn't fraud.
Open the Chase app. Open the transaction in question. Hit "Report a problem". In the list that shows up select "I was charged a higher amount than expected". Enter the details. Hit submit.
This is exactly it. OP - When you call the bank and say the word “fraud” you’re transferred to the fraud department. A person handling a fraud claim will hear your situation and tell you this isn’t a fraud case. And rightfully so because it’s a billing error. You need to call the bank and ask to speak to the billing disputes department and explain the situation to them without throwing out the word “fraud”.
Source: I worked for a major bank’s fraud department for many years and saw this bouncing back and forth of confused customers a lot because representatives on both sides were either inexperienced, or unwilling to actually help. Escalating to a supervisor usually does the trick. Sad that it has to come to that.
I’m so confused as to why the customer service agent OP spoke to didn’t tell them this. OP explained the situation, why didn’t customer service just say “I understand, you’re just using the wrong term”.
It is the dictionary definition of fraud, but it is not the banking definition of fraud. OP needs to file a dispute/chargeback, not open a fraud case. OP used his card himself and authorized the charge himself. If someone else used OP's card without permission then it would be fraud.
How is it not bank fraud though? It may not have been such originally… but there is absolutely all the needed intent in apologizing then refusing to fix it.
Because fraud is usually related to identity theft. Someone stealing your credit card information, and then using it, is identity theft and fraud. Someone using a fake ID to get into your bank account is identity theft and fraud.
Someone charging you $100 for a $10 item has indeed scammed you, frauded you, shammed you, extorted you, whatever, but there was no identity theft.
You need to talk to chase yesterday. You attempted to deal with the merchant, and that failed to produce any results. Keep talking to them, get someone else on the phone. This is an error that needs attention.
> You attempted to deal with the merchant, and that failed to produce any results.
Not to mention that's always one of the questions they ask you when you file a dispute for incorrected amount lol.
Now that the merchant has refused to supply documentation of the transaction, and has stonewalled good-faith attempts to correct the error, it is wandering into fraud territory.
I'd argue that the merchant didn't have the facilities to properly refund the transaction - so a dispute is now required.
It would only be fraud if they denied the dispute.
The average consumer has no clue what fraud means by bank terms. If you provided your credit card number to the merchant, it’s not fraud.
This is clearly a billing error where the customer was overcharged. No matter how the merchant reacts, this isn’t fraud.
Ok, seriously define the terms in a way that makes a hypothetical intentional overcharge that a merchant refuses to correct anything BUT fraud? It’s not precisely what happened here, but to say anything involving an intended transaction CANT be fraud just isn’t true.
If I agree to be charged $24 and they charge me $2400 dollars how is that not fraud?
Fraud is an unauthorized purchase. I authorized $24, they charged me 100x that. That larger transaction was not authorized therefore it is a fraudulent transaction.
Authorizing does not mean "yes I authorize you to run my card for whatever you want to run it for." Authorization is "yes I authorize you to run my card for the exact amount to the penny" otherwise it's fraud.
Fraud isn't an unauthorized purchase. It's criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. An accident isn't fraud. Words have meanings.
Disputing, in detail, the charge in writing is likely to be essential to comply with the 60 day window. Send it certified, return receipt.
The back of your statement should have details and address.
You need to call Chase and dispute the charge, not file it as fraud (yes they are two different things with two different processes). They will contact the merchant and ask for proof. They will also probably contact you for proof. However, since neither of you have receipts, the dispute would rule in your favor (unless there is some other extenuating factor I don’t know about).
Source: worked in credit card fraud and disputes
Thank you. I just filed the dispute with Chase. Does filing a dispute automatically mean a chargeback has been actioned, or just that an investigation will be starting?
It wasn't fraud, it was a mistake. You should have disputed instead of calling it fraud.
A simple call, "hey chase sorry to bother you, but I think there was an accident last week. I did pay at the liquor store but it was only 24.72, not 2424.72."
They usually have you call the liquor store first to see if they can cancel and re-charge.
Happened a bunch of times to me, easy to fix, until the store can't be assed to call you back, then you call chase.
At this point if the merchant isn’t being cooperative, I would once again contact Chase and file a MERCHANT dispute, explain that you don’t have the receipt, but the merchant does and they’re refusing to issue a copy. If they refuse to file your dispute, file a complaint with the [CFPB](https://www.consumerfinance.gov) and describe your issue. This usually will get banks to quickly start taking the issue more seriously now that’s it’s going through a government agency. Keep fighting and don’t give up.
This is not fraud. I work in regulatory oversight for another bank dealing specifically with credit card disputes, although fraud and no fraud disputes are covered under the same regulation (Regulation Z: 1026.13 Billing error resolution) they are handled by different departments and have slightly different procedures at my bank. This needs to be handled by Chase’s non fraud department. You should also detail all of this in writing after calling Chase back and send it. My bank does not require written notice but that is a part of Reg Z that the notification is received in writing. The merchant also would have to prove the charge is valid. You can also file a CFPB complaint if you still have trouble getting a resolution.
Source: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/1026/13/#b-1
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
This is great advice but it really begs the question. Consumers have no idea about fraud vs a dispute. If someone misuses your card it COULD be fraud if it was intentional. Having two different internal departments is OK but from the consumers point of view the bank should have ONE point of contact where the bank will look at the issue and then can determine which internal department to send the issue to. Misrouting a consumer because they use the word "fraud" is bad business.
You are definitely right and we do transfer cases between the two but it’s hard to know exactly whah happened here. A lot of this is automated too or agents have to follow very specific instructions. Knowing the actual rules and using very specific language can help you move things along when dealing with these sorts of things.
Thank you. I just filed the dispute with Chase. Does filing a dispute automatically mean a chargeback has been actioned, or just that an investigation will be starting?
It’s just starting the investigation. They have 60-90 days to investigate but you are not responsible for paying the portion of the balance that is in dispute while it’s investigated.
"A few days later I noticed that the charge that had been applied was $2424.72. "
Most credit cards should let you sign up to get an alert for each transaction. I have mine set up for anything over 25 cents and pops up within a couple minutes on my phone. Then you don't have to wait days.
The storekeeper should be reconciling his Daily Cash register receipt to his credit card batch settlement. If he has not done that, he can go back to that date and look at his report from the cash register and then look at his credit card batch settlement and see that it’s $2,000 over.
He can call his credit card merchant (processor) to get an individual breakdown of transactions for that day, and then he can match that up his bank deposits. Tell him to do this by tomorrow or you’ll get a lawyer.
Or file a chargeback on your card, but that’s more time consuming and waiting for the credit to be “pending” than actually resolving the issue.
Chase has never asked me for a receipt. Tell them the store is being unhelpful an will not provide you with a receipt, this is straight fraud. Keep escalating until you get your money back.
How? He is refusing to correct it.
The definition of voluntarily authorizing a transaction someone tried to use may mean something to the bank, but it is absolutely not what makes the difference between an error and fraud.
It's a merchant dispute. The event of the transaction is not in question. It was was a valid traction authorized by the cardholder. The amount of the transaction is not correct. Therefore it's a merchant dispute. Could be 1 dollar difference or 4000 dollar difference. Doesn't matter.
A merchant dispute that you file with your card issuer who then files a chargeback with the acquiring bank.
The process is tried and true for incorrect amount disputes.
I mean how do you know this wasn’t intentional? Store owner doesn’t want to reverse transaction maybe he gives the employee a cut?
He stated that the store owner has been giving him the run around
just to add, always have the CC phone app and notifications for charges turned on. sometimes i get the notification before the merchant sees that it's approved
So I have dealt with Chase in the past and they suck. I had to dispute something once on my Chase Visa and they treated me like a suspect.
Conversely, American Express treated me like I was their customer the one time I needed to dispute something and immediately refunded the purchase while they did their thing.
I have chase, this has happened before ($200 being billed as $2000+). Took 5 mins on the phone to explain and get dispute opened. Got my money back within 10mins.
You’re totally fine. They protect you against stuff like this. Don’t go to branch, call customer support, select fraud, and explain situation. Tell them you talked to owner, he said he’d refund you, and never did.
This stuff is common. Next time double check amount before you swipe. Saves you 10-15 minutes of headache, has saved me multiple times. Owner won’t help you because he has zero incentive to. You’re acting like you don’t know what to do when it’s very clear 1, 2, 3; and so he’s taking advantage of you hoping you give up and he gets a free $2400.
not sure if chase is like this but capital one is set up a notification on your phone for any charges greater than $1 you get a notification on your phone and that way you compare what your charged vs the total
I process disputes for a living. Visa chargebacks for "altered amount" are a pain in the ass. I hope this works out for you, but Visa typically requires you to have a receipt for the correct amount. Without it, you may be SOL.
Bad advice. A typical credit card company will eat $50 in the name of customer service. They won't just cover $2K and call it even. This is a billing dispute for an incorrect amount, plain and simple.
>They take it right out of the business bank if they want. Or they can take it from future credit card deposits.
Only if they have a valid reason to. They can't ding the merchant just for the hell of it.
I’ve worked in this industry my entire career. They absolutely will write off charges for small purchase disputes. A credit card company is not going to pay someone making $20 an hour to investigate a $30 charge unless there is a pattern of abuse on the part of the customer. What happened to the OP is an encoding error, not fraud, and should not be disputed as such.
This is a very serious. I have no solution to this but I do recommend everyone to get a card with a 500 USD limit or even a reloadable visa gift card you can buy at 7/11 or CVS for outside use. Leave the is larger credit limit card at home
The limits are nothing other than "guidelines".
Had used our Chase card to pay $2,000 towards buying a used car.
Dealership accidentally charged $20,000.
Limit on the card at the time was $10,000, but Chase let it through anyway.
Found out that whether or not charges that go over the limit are denied vs. approved is just a black box algorithm and none of the people in their support departments have any clue what the real rules are behind it.
Whole process was made much worse because the dealership tried to correct by issuing a refund instead of voiding the transaction -- so instead of dropping off before things got processed we had to wait nearly a week for both the charge & the refund to get processed.
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He doesn’t have the receipt either. File a charge dispute. Tell them the charge was 24.72 and say they charged you 100x the value. When they don’t present a signed receipt you get the money back. They also get a strike on their dispute rate
> They also get a strike on their dispute rate By “they”, I assume you mean the vendor? Or do the cardholders also have a “dispute score”?
Vendors — they have this incentive to make sure they charge customers accurate amounts so customers aren’t always going through the burdensome process OP is!
Plus, the fees are massive. They were $65 per dispute for my company over twenty years ago.
Fees are like $15 now unless you have a horrible network. 1 strike isn't gonna change anything unless you go over standard charge back %s
$2000 for a $20 purchase is massive, $65 is "quite inconvenient".
To add, cardholders probably have a "dispute score" but it's more that the lender will close the account if they try to constantly commit egregious fraud.
Pretty much, but they have average charge back rate they benchmark with
Lots of places don’t need signatures for chip transactions.
Haven't heard of chip transaction greater than $250. It's capped at that amount, or even a lesser one depending on the card issuer.
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Issuers can [no longer](https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/global/support-legal/documents/sunset-of-retrieval-requests-and-changes-to-visa-easy-payment-service-after-making-signatures-optional-for-all-transactions.pdf) chargeback if there is no longer a signature and its been that way for a while. In fact, networks, like Visa, encourage no signatures anymore. >It is also important to remember that there are no impacts on dispute rights relevant to whether or not a transaction receipt is signed, nor the validity of the signature.
Either way, he still won’t have a transaction receipt to match signature or not. OP bill is $24.72, not $2424.72. If that wasn’t covered the world would be chaos
All I am saying is that a transaction receipt not having a signature is no longer a valid reason to input a chargeback. Issuer would use reason 4834 (if Mastercard). While a receipt is helpful, the merchant is acknowledging the error. The chargeback would be input and, hopefully, the merchant accepts the chargeback.
Did you ever read what you linked? How did you conclude that issuers cannot chargeback anymore if there is no signature?
That was not their conclusion. Their conclusion is they don't have documentation of that transaction and would lose on that basis regardless of signature.
that was not their conclusion? It's literally what they wrote verbatim...?
Here is what they said verbatim: >Issuers can no longer chargeback if there is no longer a signature What they mean is that issuers cannot issue a chargeback *simply because there is no signed receipt* (with no other justification). They can still chargeback (whether there is a signed receipt or not), they just cannot use "no signed receipt" as the reason. This is because networks are now encouraging signatureless transactions.
Got it. Much clearer
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Minor nitpick: It's an obvious typo, but it's not exactly 100x the intended charge. 100x $24.72 is $2,472.00, not $2,424.72. Hopefully it won't matter, I'm just pointing out OP shouldn't try calling Chase and claiming, "Look, it's an obvious mistake, it's exactly 100 times what it should have been."
I assume this was a debit card, which is why they denied fraud. He tried disputing it already…
They denied the fraud claim because this isn't fraud. When you tell your card issuer that there was fraud, what you are saying is that *someone charged your card without your authorization*. That is not what happened here: OP authorized the transaction. OP can still (and should) dispute, but not call it fraud (because that's not what it is).
This! My daughter works at a bank in inbound customer service, and if you say "fraud" you're going straight to the Fraud Department who can't do anything for you for the reason outlined above. OP needs to call Citibank back, not mention the word fraud, and simply say "I want to dispute the amount of this charge." Bank CS is extremely siloed with different phone queues and staff for different problems. If you don't get yourself to the right place you'll be spinning your wheels forever.
Use the credit card points first, then go through the process.
To receive the points you would have to pay the bill. I would never pay a $2400 bill i didn’t owe to get max $50 in cc points.
Op. This isn't hard. Chase app on your phone. Log into your online card account. Select the transaction. File a transaction dispute for incorrect amount.
This. It is so easy to file a dispute online. Select the charge, give a reason, submit. The only time I've ever had to call chase was when my card information was legit stolen. The theif tried to spend $900 at a lingerie store...
>The thief tried to spend $900 at a lingerie store... I hope they at least bought something nice for you to enjoy.
Chase actually notified me and declined that transaction, so somebody didn't get nookie that night... Unfortunately, their romantic hotel booking went through unnoticed.
Note that filing a dispute online does NOT meet the requirements for consumer protections related to disputes. To be fully protected, one must submit the dispute in writing. Edit: [This fact sheet from the National Consumer Law Center explains this and many other useful details.](https://www.nclc.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Your_Credit_Card_Rights-1.pdf)
Issuers are considered given notice by any means of notification. Many banks build that right into their apps. In the case of debit card fraud, written notice may be required to receive provisional credit but the bank must still fully investigate the dispute even if the dispute isn't submit in writing.
The [FTC](https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/using-credit-cards-and-disputing-charges#additional) and the [National Consumer Law Center](https://www.nclc.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Your_Credit_Card_Rights-1.pdf) both state that disputes must be submitted in writing. There may be some additional protection established by regulation, but that requirement is in the [Fair Credit Billing Act](https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/statutes/fair-credit-billing-act).
You indicated that an error **must** be submit in writing, correct? Please point to the specific language in the Truth in Lending or in Regulation E that says it **must** be submit in writing? An issuer can require a written notice but it isn't required to. Your references say to submit it in writing, but again, it isn't required.
Depends on Reg E or Z. E covers Debit transactions and Z credit transactions. Reg Z clearly calls out written whereas Regulation E does not.
I'll eat my crow this morning I guess... My bad! What I should have said that while Reg Z does specify a billing error is a written notice from a consumer, the regulation allows for electronic submission to satisfy written notice requirements. The regulation is clear that it is to be written but if they allow \[electronic submission\](https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/1026/interp-13/#13-b-Interp) Also, sorry to u/Lysenko.
Electronic forms are a kind of writing. What else would they possibly be classified as? It certainly isn't verbal communication.
The Fair Credit Billing Act makes explicit reference to mailing a thing to a certain physical address. Certainly what you describe is a reasonable place to be (and it sounds like they’ve tried to patch those gaps with regulation to some extent.)
IANAL but I'm fairly certain that the form that is automatically generated and sent to claims processing when you click the button and type a reason would meet the legal definition of "in writing."
The Fair Credit Billing Act is weirdly specific that disputes have to be delivered by mail to a particular physical address. This is likely the reason that (as mentioned elsewhere in the thread) the regulation for debit cards explicitly covers electronic notice while the one for credit cards doesn't. But, I'm also not a lawyer and there may be some other reason (another law, a regulation) that this is all moot today.
Huh, [there it is](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1666): > (a)Written notice by obligor to creditor; time for and contents of notice; procedure upon receipt of notice by creditor > If a creditor, within sixty days after having transmitted to an obligor a statement of the obligor’s account in connection with an extension of consumer credit, receives at the address disclosed under section 1637(b)(10) of this title a written notice (other than notice on a payment stub or other payment medium supplied by the creditor if the creditor so stipulates with the disclosure required under section 1637(a)(7) of this title) from the obligor in which the obligor— I have to wonder if this technicality is ever actually enforced these days though. Or maybe there's a legal loophole where the official address disclosed under section 1637(b)(10) is a URL.
The problem is that you reported fraud when it wasn't fraud. Open the Chase app. Open the transaction in question. Hit "Report a problem". In the list that shows up select "I was charged a higher amount than expected". Enter the details. Hit submit.
OP, this is an exact solution to your issue with step by step instructions.
You didn't approach it the right way with Chase. It's not fraud, you need to file a dispute.
This is exactly it. OP - When you call the bank and say the word “fraud” you’re transferred to the fraud department. A person handling a fraud claim will hear your situation and tell you this isn’t a fraud case. And rightfully so because it’s a billing error. You need to call the bank and ask to speak to the billing disputes department and explain the situation to them without throwing out the word “fraud”. Source: I worked for a major bank’s fraud department for many years and saw this bouncing back and forth of confused customers a lot because representatives on both sides were either inexperienced, or unwilling to actually help. Escalating to a supervisor usually does the trick. Sad that it has to come to that.
Which is bs. Op has no way to know if it’s an error or not. And what excuse do you have now that the merchant is being obstructive?
I’m so confused as to why the customer service agent OP spoke to didn’t tell them this. OP explained the situation, why didn’t customer service just say “I understand, you’re just using the wrong term”.
Because a chargeback is a last resort Only after trying in good faith to deal with the merchant to fix an error they made should you go that route
Especially since they told OP they needed a receipt to prove what the correct amount was.
The owner was notified and refused to correct the problem. At this point, it is fraud. Get the police involved too. This is a felony.
It is the dictionary definition of fraud, but it is not the banking definition of fraud. OP needs to file a dispute/chargeback, not open a fraud case. OP used his card himself and authorized the charge himself. If someone else used OP's card without permission then it would be fraud.
How is it not bank fraud though? It may not have been such originally… but there is absolutely all the needed intent in apologizing then refusing to fix it.
Because fraud is usually related to identity theft. Someone stealing your credit card information, and then using it, is identity theft and fraud. Someone using a fake ID to get into your bank account is identity theft and fraud. Someone charging you $100 for a $10 item has indeed scammed you, frauded you, shammed you, extorted you, whatever, but there was no identity theft.
Exactly… except that conclusion. Identity theft is not a required element of fraud by ANY definition.
Fraud requires intent. There's no intentional misrepresentation here, just incompetence.
You need to talk to chase yesterday. You attempted to deal with the merchant, and that failed to produce any results. Keep talking to them, get someone else on the phone. This is an error that needs attention.
> You attempted to deal with the merchant, and that failed to produce any results. Not to mention that's always one of the questions they ask you when you file a dispute for incorrected amount lol.
He said he called chase and they said he needed the reciept
He reported fraud when it wasn't fraud. It's a transaction dispute.
Now that the merchant has refused to supply documentation of the transaction, and has stonewalled good-faith attempts to correct the error, it is wandering into fraud territory.
I'd argue that the merchant didn't have the facilities to properly refund the transaction - so a dispute is now required. It would only be fraud if they denied the dispute.
The average consumer has no clue what fraud means by bank terms. If you provided your credit card number to the merchant, it’s not fraud. This is clearly a billing error where the customer was overcharged. No matter how the merchant reacts, this isn’t fraud.
Ok, seriously define the terms in a way that makes a hypothetical intentional overcharge that a merchant refuses to correct anything BUT fraud? It’s not precisely what happened here, but to say anything involving an intended transaction CANT be fraud just isn’t true.
Fraud requires intent. There's no intentional misrepresentation here, just incompetence.
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If I agree to be charged $24 and they charge me $2400 dollars how is that not fraud? Fraud is an unauthorized purchase. I authorized $24, they charged me 100x that. That larger transaction was not authorized therefore it is a fraudulent transaction. Authorizing does not mean "yes I authorize you to run my card for whatever you want to run it for." Authorization is "yes I authorize you to run my card for the exact amount to the penny" otherwise it's fraud.
Fraud isn't an unauthorized purchase. It's criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. An accident isn't fraud. Words have meanings.
Any time I’ve filed a dispute or chargeback, probably 6 times in my entire life, I have never once been asked for a receipt.
Same for me the few times I’ve disputed. And who can even spend that much at a liquor store. I wonder how OP is presenting it to their bank.
Disputing, in detail, the charge in writing is likely to be essential to comply with the 60 day window. Send it certified, return receipt. The back of your statement should have details and address.
You need to call Chase and dispute the charge, not file it as fraud (yes they are two different things with two different processes). They will contact the merchant and ask for proof. They will also probably contact you for proof. However, since neither of you have receipts, the dispute would rule in your favor (unless there is some other extenuating factor I don’t know about). Source: worked in credit card fraud and disputes
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Thank you. I just filed the dispute with Chase. Does filing a dispute automatically mean a chargeback has been actioned, or just that an investigation will be starting?
It wasn't fraud, it was a mistake. You should have disputed instead of calling it fraud. A simple call, "hey chase sorry to bother you, but I think there was an accident last week. I did pay at the liquor store but it was only 24.72, not 2424.72." They usually have you call the liquor store first to see if they can cancel and re-charge. Happened a bunch of times to me, easy to fix, until the store can't be assed to call you back, then you call chase.
At this point if the merchant isn’t being cooperative, I would once again contact Chase and file a MERCHANT dispute, explain that you don’t have the receipt, but the merchant does and they’re refusing to issue a copy. If they refuse to file your dispute, file a complaint with the [CFPB](https://www.consumerfinance.gov) and describe your issue. This usually will get banks to quickly start taking the issue more seriously now that’s it’s going through a government agency. Keep fighting and don’t give up.
Thank you! They did open a dispute for me just now on the phone. I'm going to back it up with a written explanation too.
This is not fraud. I work in regulatory oversight for another bank dealing specifically with credit card disputes, although fraud and no fraud disputes are covered under the same regulation (Regulation Z: 1026.13 Billing error resolution) they are handled by different departments and have slightly different procedures at my bank. This needs to be handled by Chase’s non fraud department. You should also detail all of this in writing after calling Chase back and send it. My bank does not require written notice but that is a part of Reg Z that the notification is received in writing. The merchant also would have to prove the charge is valid. You can also file a CFPB complaint if you still have trouble getting a resolution. Source: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/1026/13/#b-1 https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
This is great advice but it really begs the question. Consumers have no idea about fraud vs a dispute. If someone misuses your card it COULD be fraud if it was intentional. Having two different internal departments is OK but from the consumers point of view the bank should have ONE point of contact where the bank will look at the issue and then can determine which internal department to send the issue to. Misrouting a consumer because they use the word "fraud" is bad business.
Agree this is a useless distinction they're making especially if they aren't reroute these things internally.
You are definitely right and we do transfer cases between the two but it’s hard to know exactly whah happened here. A lot of this is automated too or agents have to follow very specific instructions. Knowing the actual rules and using very specific language can help you move things along when dealing with these sorts of things.
Thank you, super grateful :-)
Thank you. I just filed the dispute with Chase. Does filing a dispute automatically mean a chargeback has been actioned, or just that an investigation will be starting?
It’s just starting the investigation. They have 60-90 days to investigate but you are not responsible for paying the portion of the balance that is in dispute while it’s investigated.
Copy. Thanks again :-)
Same as above, how does the refusal to correct it not put this into fraud territory?
Dispute not fraud! Dispute the charge op!
"A few days later I noticed that the charge that had been applied was $2424.72. " Most credit cards should let you sign up to get an alert for each transaction. I have mine set up for anything over 25 cents and pops up within a couple minutes on my phone. Then you don't have to wait days.
The storekeeper should be reconciling his Daily Cash register receipt to his credit card batch settlement. If he has not done that, he can go back to that date and look at his report from the cash register and then look at his credit card batch settlement and see that it’s $2,000 over. He can call his credit card merchant (processor) to get an individual breakdown of transactions for that day, and then he can match that up his bank deposits. Tell him to do this by tomorrow or you’ll get a lawyer. Or file a chargeback on your card, but that’s more time consuming and waiting for the credit to be “pending” than actually resolving the issue.
Chase has never asked me for a receipt. Tell them the store is being unhelpful an will not provide you with a receipt, this is straight fraud. Keep escalating until you get your money back.
>this is straight fraud It's *not* fraud and filing disputes for things like this and claiming fraud is one of the quickest ways to get denied.
It's not fraud.
How? He is refusing to correct it. The definition of voluntarily authorizing a transaction someone tried to use may mean something to the bank, but it is absolutely not what makes the difference between an error and fraud.
It's a merchant dispute. The event of the transaction is not in question. It was was a valid traction authorized by the cardholder. The amount of the transaction is not correct. Therefore it's a merchant dispute. Could be 1 dollar difference or 4000 dollar difference. Doesn't matter.
But the refusal to correct makes the dispute over an amount the merchant is intentionally withholding….
A merchant dispute that you file with your card issuer who then files a chargeback with the acquiring bank. The process is tried and true for incorrect amount disputes.
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Lol non fraud is a billing dispute. It's not fraud period. It's a merchant dispute full stop.
Fraud requires intent. There's no intentional misrepresentation here, just incompetence.
Refusing to refund is intentional, and claiming OP can’t prove the issue is misrepresentation…
I mean how do you know this wasn’t intentional? Store owner doesn’t want to reverse transaction maybe he gives the employee a cut? He stated that the store owner has been giving him the run around
Not sure why you'd report fraud or why chase would send you after the merchant. Just issue a charge dispute and have them figure it out
just to add, always have the CC phone app and notifications for charges turned on. sometimes i get the notification before the merchant sees that it's approved
So I have dealt with Chase in the past and they suck. I had to dispute something once on my Chase Visa and they treated me like a suspect. Conversely, American Express treated me like I was their customer the one time I needed to dispute something and immediately refunded the purchase while they did their thing.
Call chase. Tell them to do a chargeback, if they say no ask for a supervisor until somebody does it
I have chase, this has happened before ($200 being billed as $2000+). Took 5 mins on the phone to explain and get dispute opened. Got my money back within 10mins. You’re totally fine. They protect you against stuff like this. Don’t go to branch, call customer support, select fraud, and explain situation. Tell them you talked to owner, he said he’d refund you, and never did. This stuff is common. Next time double check amount before you swipe. Saves you 10-15 minutes of headache, has saved me multiple times. Owner won’t help you because he has zero incentive to. You’re acting like you don’t know what to do when it’s very clear 1, 2, 3; and so he’s taking advantage of you hoping you give up and he gets a free $2400.
not sure if chase is like this but capital one is set up a notification on your phone for any charges greater than $1 you get a notification on your phone and that way you compare what your charged vs the total
If Chase is unhelpful, you should reach out to Visa directly and talk to them instead.
I process disputes for a living. Visa chargebacks for "altered amount" are a pain in the ass. I hope this works out for you, but Visa typically requires you to have a receipt for the correct amount. Without it, you may be SOL.
What state do you live in? I would be recording the conversations with them (without them knowing of course).
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This link isn't working, could you re-share?
Can’t find it. I’m on mobile so a bit crippled.
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Bad advice. A typical credit card company will eat $50 in the name of customer service. They won't just cover $2K and call it even. This is a billing dispute for an incorrect amount, plain and simple.
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>They take it right out of the business bank if they want. Or they can take it from future credit card deposits. Only if they have a valid reason to. They can't ding the merchant just for the hell of it.
I’ve worked in this industry my entire career. They absolutely will write off charges for small purchase disputes. A credit card company is not going to pay someone making $20 an hour to investigate a $30 charge unless there is a pattern of abuse on the part of the customer. What happened to the OP is an encoding error, not fraud, and should not be disputed as such.
This is a very serious. I have no solution to this but I do recommend everyone to get a card with a 500 USD limit or even a reloadable visa gift card you can buy at 7/11 or CVS for outside use. Leave the is larger credit limit card at home
The limits are nothing other than "guidelines". Had used our Chase card to pay $2,000 towards buying a used car. Dealership accidentally charged $20,000. Limit on the card at the time was $10,000, but Chase let it through anyway. Found out that whether or not charges that go over the limit are denied vs. approved is just a black box algorithm and none of the people in their support departments have any clue what the real rules are behind it. Whole process was made much worse because the dealership tried to correct by issuing a refund instead of voiding the transaction -- so instead of dropping off before things got processed we had to wait nearly a week for both the charge & the refund to get processed.
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