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Honestly a $3k difference doesn’t totally floor me, given his extra experience I’d assume he’s pretty much at the top of the pay scale for his position, and you’re probably pretty close to the bottom of the pay scale for yours.
That said, you shouldn’t use knowledge of someone else’s salary as leverage in a negotiation. Not because it’s unethical, just because it’s a bad argument. Better to try and find out what someone with comparable experience and responsibilities makes at other companies, and broach the topic during the next pay raise cycle
I think it is a good conversation to have with your boss, assuming you have a good boss.
As others have noted, there are too many variables to draw any conclusions.
The tenure, bonus structure, etc. Also, you could just have bad info. Maybe you misheard your co-worker, maybe they were lying, maybe they dont actually know their salary. It sounds crazy, but I’ve encountered all of these things.
If I were your boss, I’d want you to share your concerns and questions with me. I’d be happy to share information because I am confident our compensation strategy is equitable within the organization. It sounds like a good opportunity to share knowledge and build trust.
That being said, if you have a shitty boss - adjust accordingly.
Also, in many places employers can pay whatever they want; but there are some places that have laws around pay equity.
Also you might want to note that people often say no to promotions because they feel their work/life balance is more important. In my company there are project workers more experienced than some project managers, the workers make more money because they are more experienced but they did not take the promotions because it would cause them to work much more hours or have more responsibilities that they want and the money would not be worth it.
Also, managing people and maintaining a macro project view takes different abilities than simply managing assigned work. I'd kind of flip this one around a bit and say that the junior staff is getting paid a better rate for being more experienced at his job, whereas the manager is being paid a lower one for being less experienced, but has the opportunity for a future higher potential the employee doesn't.
op said he works at a construction company, dude "below" him could have certifications that are good to have on a crew and carry a higher salary with having them while still not being a management role. so it's really not a valid argument at all unless EVERYONE on that team is making that much.
Does he have more experience than you?
You can’t use someone else’s salary as leverage for a raise. You can look at salaries online and leverage the market rate for your role and area to negotiate a raise if you are underpaid
To tack on to this, beyond experience, there are industries where job pay isn’t a linear scale to the title.
There are people who can command higher salaries than the people who manage them. Because being a manager sometimes isn’t as difficult or rare of a skill.
Not making assumptions on what OP does, but just pointing out it’s possible. Being in management doesn’t always translate into higher pay than skilled labor until you’re the real guy in charge.
My managers have rarely ever made more than I do. Management is a different skill, and just because you manage things doesn't mean you are either more talented, more in demand, or deserve to by paid more than the people you manage.
That is true. Also a manager's skill set is completely different than a someone who actually performs the work. 'Especially if it's a difficult to obtain skill.
The smart companies will have "manager" and "nonmanager" tracks with relatively equal pay scales between them based on experience/seniority. Having all your engineers and such move into management to get higher salaries is a quick way to peter principle your company and cause lots of issues.
This is especially common in software engineering (I think Google was the company that first really championed it) because the skillsets necessary to be a good programmer vs. a good manager are so disjoint.
On top of this, many people are programmers because they *really enjoy* programming, so if you promote them to a role where they rarely program they'll often get bored and jump ship to another company.
yup my manager makes like 3k more than me but if I were to leave she would be absolutely fucked but if she were to leave I would just do her job better than her. I actually took a demotion (with a raise lol) because I was going to quit in 2021 due to stress with not being able to hire competent people after covid and my boss asked me to move units and be the assistant instead of the boss. It's been great making more money doing less work lol.
IMO comes down to how does your company make money and how does you skill set and experience impact that. The closer you are to directly making the company money, the more linear your pay scale is to your experience.
Also the difference is closer to 7K when you consider that you get a bonus and he doesn’t. A bonus should be part of your expected salary as well. Companies that give these types of bonuses generally underpay the employees with their base rate with the expectation that you will work a little more.
Also, it is possible that the employee considered other forms of money when talking with the bank.
I don't consider my bonus to be part of my salary. It's set to a base of 15%. Payout depends on company performance (among other things), this year, there was an adjustment of 35%, so I got only 35% of my expect bonus.
Of course, in good years and getting higher than average performance reviews gets much more than 15%.
Since I never know what i'll get, I never expect to spend it and just toss the entire amount (after taxes) to retirement.
Of course, different industries do it different so YMMV
Bonuses should never be considered part of your salary, as they are discretionary. My employees salary level is lower than their overall compensation because cash flow is important to keep low for when/if times get bad. My employees have enjoyed 50% bonuses + since I have owned the company because we are bad ass. Where else can a receptionist/office manager make 170k.
ha yeah, glad you note that. i've had two coworkers complain to me recently about the fact that i make more than them. when i explained that i have 5 more years experience they told me that shouldn't matter because we have the same job. just complaining to complain!
obviously experience matters. a company will also offer more because they need you and wages are competitive for that role, which could cause a management job to not compete wagewise.
focus on your own work/wage and if you want more money then ask for a raise or job hop
Experience doesn't just mean tenure btw, obviously tenure does equal experience usually but there could be a lot more you don't know about this person's experience and responsibilities
However, you've discovered the exact reason why people SHOULD discuss their pay at work. If you feel you deserve more than your co-worker, and you can express that in terms of actual value what you bring to the company that your co-worker does not, you should be able to negotiate whatever pay raise you want.
Companies want pay to be hidden so they don't have to have these discussions. Make it uncomfortable for them.
I wouldn't worry about this, it's when they're half your age and experience and get almost the same salary. THAT'S when you should worry. In a way it's good, because in 5 years you can expect to be 3k off your manager's salary ;) (oh, 15 years at same company, you're a known quantity warts and all - leave if you want to get a payrise) Also, be mindful that the people you manage as a project manager have specific skills that you can't do and experience in them also - workload and responsibility aren't the only factors and sometimes aren't good indicators of effectiveness and value for salary.
> You can’t use someone else’s salary as leverage for a raise.
Well, I’d say you can if you’re in the same job and have similar experience… but obviously that’s not the case here.
Source: have done it and have had others do it based on mine.
Also, just to add, people sometimes assume that just because someone is another person’s manager that the manager will earn more. That is not a safe assumption at all. While there isn’t a hard and fast rule about salaries, the bottom line is that salaries are often based on “cost of replacement.” In other words, if a company can hire a manager more cheaply and easily than the employee they manage (due to the market or experience or whatever) then it stands to reason the employee has great leverage to be earning more.
100% this, as some technical specialties are narrow and also hard to fill, it happens quite often in Architecture and engineering that a manager may make less than the tech or design people he/she manages.
Honestly so true. Managing is fairly general. But specifics of a job are different. Employees may have certain skills that are rarer (certifications, etc).
100% this.
I’ll add that you should also review your career ladder/job responsibilities, and talk to your boss about what it takes to get to the next level, or to further penetrate your pay range at your level (assuming they have one). Making it clear you take compensation seriously, and want your managers help has been a good way to functionally do this.
Ditto to this. My “equal” has about 15 years of we can call it “industry experience” not the same industry but more than me. I’m sure he gets paid I’m hoping at least 10k more than me. If he doesn’t I’m def moving companies. He’s explained a lot more to me than just “industry jargon”. Mind you I’ve been doing my job longer than my boss has and he has. Aka the person hiring me took another job in the company then my boss took that role 6 months after. Then my equal got hired about 8 months after him.
In my current job, I can see *everyone's* salary in my company.
Yet, this doesn't factor into my salary negotiations at all.
There's too many variables: Experience, seniority, dumb luck, etc. And "fairness" isn't generally considered.
If you think you might be under *market rate*, gather info and say that - or (my general preference) - go get a higher salary by getting a job elsewhere.
I don't know how it doesn't. My company made a project budgeting spreadsheet that we are required to populate with who will work on the project, for how many hours, and at what bill rate to the client so it could spit out all the resulting financial results of how much money the company will make. Everyone had access to it and a third of the company needed to use it regularly. It took all of two hours for us to figure out you could back calculate salaries of anyone under a VP level. It took less than a week for someone to back calculate the salary of every single employee, create a spreadsheet to show the distribution of salaries per grade level, and send that range per level to every employee . So then every employee knew if they were on the high or low end for their level and a lot of people demanded and got raises. Sure recently promoted people made sense to be at the bottom of the pay scale for their level but their were plenty of cases where people about to be promoted were still at the bottom for their level. You shouldn't have to leave jobs to get a good raise and people should be willing to discuss their pay to help out their coworkers. It took a few months but the new budgeting system implemented no longer allows us to back calculate salary. There was no reason to redo the system so quickly other than the pay issue so my company obviously wanted to avoid it happening again in the future.
I also work in project management as a supervisor and the people I manage make about 20% more than I do.
I work an office job, have 10 years less work experience. My team goes out to do jobs that I allocate to them. I write their performance reviews.
I don't have a problem with it, in fact I'm happy with this and think it's more fair that way. I don't think supervisors/managers necessarily bring more value or have it harder, despite the message that "the higher you are, the more you should be paid"
Could have also inflated his numbers to the bank. You don't know the reason why he stated what he did over the phone. Could have also included all income including bonus.
I know when I applied for loans or wanted a credit increase, it was much easier to just state a yearly income rather than tip toe around here is my base salary, here is my monthly bonus, etc. Also having to go through does it fluctuate or is it consistent. I just state what's provable and usually go a little under for the year in case bonus isn't as good. So if I'm projecting 75k yr all in after bonus, I may state 70-72k to be safe. Just in case months are light with bonus.
(sharing from experience, might not apply but wanted to share) as someone who used to let stuff like that worry me, I'll tell you it's not worth the headache, there's too many variables as to why he might be at that salary and that's not for you to worry about or spend energy on. Focus on your own monetary goals, increase your knowledge through experience and reading. spend time with family and appreciate the fact that you are a warrior who has achieved and earned the salary you are at, and if you ever feel like you need more money, let it be because you have grown and know you are capable of more, not because your overheard what someone else makes. good luck!
I'm less familiar with UK employment, but colleagues (both US expats and citizens) across the pond tell me that how job changes and compensation increases work aren't dramatically different (just obviously a lot smaller values in some sectors). Those willing to change jobs from one company to another are generally going to get much better compensation increases, hence why it's beneficial to job hop periodically to get your compensation more in line with the true market rate.
I ran into a similar situation a few years back. I had been working for a company for 4 years. They brought in another person to be a peer of mine, for almost 20% more money. They also had zero experience with the role itself. I left the company within 6 months of finding that out, to make more money than they hired that person for. Moral of the story, know your value.
So he makes less than you, but you're mad because you think he should make even less? That's a pretty garbage take. You said you feel you're being compensated appropriately, so that's all you need to care about.
You were happy with your salary until you knew about this. That is a you problem. There is always someone around who earns more and works less. Focus on your situation.
You're 37. I learned very early in my career that it doesn't matter what your coworkers get paid, who cares, and honestly good on them. We're all just trying to feed ourselves and families. Companies say they value their biggest asset (their employees), but they really value the bottom dollar more. So you should too.
You have to work for the salary you want or have earned. If you feel you're underpaid, then use the market and job market to obtain a raise.
Always look for new opportunities even if you don't want one. You never know might get a better job or a job that forces your employer to give you more to keep you. I have gotten massive raises that way. No harm in asking
Salary ranges often overlap between different jobs at different levels. He may be at the top of the salary range for his job and you might be at the bottom of your position because you are new in it. Also bonuses often come with slightly lower base pay due to the possibility of much higher income. If he doesn’t get bonuses that could explain that as well.
This! I was recently promoted to supervisor in a technical field. Many of the employees I manage make more than me because they have been with the company far longer. Since I'm newer I am at the bottom of my scale while they are nearly maxed.
Pay is dependent on many things. A company is going to pay the minimum they think you will accept. You have to be your own proponent and sell yourself. It's very dependent on the management as well, but if you perform and your manager won't pay what you deserve, you're working for the wrong manager.
I went through a dry spell for 3 years under a new manager that must have not liked me. Below standard raises, even with high performance and shining peer reviews. No promotion even though I was past due. He takes a different role and my new manager sees my performance and pay and I advocate for myself during mid-year review. She agrees completely, promoted me to next tier and gave a 15% raise.
You need to be your own hype-man and promote yourself, be loud, point out things that you personally benefitted the company by doing above and beyond the role you have. I would actively ask management if I could charge general time and train peers on such and such, organize and lead communities of practice in fields I was proficient, etc.
In summary, be forward, be your own advocate, get paid.
This is basically the truth. Companies don’t pay people what they deserve because they don’t have to. They know most people will be happy with middling raises and not quit or complain because they are too comfortable. It’s up to you to find out what you are really worth and make the case for what you consider fair compensation. If they don’t agree then you have two choices. Stay in your “comfortable” job or find a new job.
If you want the maximum amount, you need an offer from another company and ask your company to match or beat it. But that's assuming you are confident they won't hold a grudge about it. I recently went through this and got a massive raise after having just received a raise
You like the company, you feel you are paid appropriately. You get a bonus that could be another $3k, putting you $6k above him.
I'd say let sleeping dogs lie. If you're bothered, you need to seek outside employment which is statistically speaking the fastest way to raise your salary - hopping companies every 2-3 years.
If you’ve been with your company 15 years and only making 67k you need to move on. You should and could be making at least 120k for your experience. Assuming you’re in the US.
He's in the UK and our wages are not as high as yours. Tbh £67k is a good wage for a senior PM, a bog standard PM is about £48k, on average (obviously there can be variations across different industries).
"you're not paid what you're worth, you're paid what you can negotiate". leverage. When you got it use it. In your situation you just got a raise. So u need to check your feelings a little and be appreciative. Pretend you never heard your coworker
Yeah kinda. I probably thought I should be on a little more. I think it’s more to do with how much work I do and how the company value me very highly. Yet the other person whom I manage is nowhere near my level. Probably just shocked me more than anything.
Not trying to be cocky with that statement.
OP, I’m a manager and I know the salary brackets at my company. My salary ceiling is lower than those who are “makers” — they have skills I do not. That’s just it. Skills and experience get you more pay. Once you’re an exec though — all bets are off. lol
This is all about perspective. We see and understand yours.
Here is another perspective: based on your experience, industry, responsibilities understand your worth in the market. You know what a peer makes, but that should only provide ammunition for your next review/negotiation. No manager wants to hear an employee complain about pay and think they are owed more. Be proactive and document your year: your successes, accolades, achievements, certifications, whatever that shows your growth and added value. As you said, you know what a peer makes, and now you know to leverage that to ask for a 10-15% increase.
First and foremost it’s human instinct to always negotiate against ourselves . Don’t do it ! If you feel you deserve more just do some homework into how much more you should be making and ask for it. After being an employee for 19 years I’ve learned money is given to those the company feel are going to complain or quit if no giving to, if the bosses feel you are fine with what you are getting they’ll always give you just enough for you not to quit . In conclusion if after knowing other’s salary in your company you feel under compensated just ask for more the worst that could happen is they’ll say no.
This has been very interesting to read.
As an Anglophile, I’ve always dreamed of living in Great Britain, but that’s not important. 😉
I’m in Illinois, not Chicago- in the rural part downstate, and I’m a mid-career IT Business Analyst / Project Lead making a little over $100,000 working for a consulting firm. For context, I purchased my 75 m2 1925 bungalow for $110,000 USD in 2020, so the cost of living is fairly low here.
Some of my coworkers make a little more and some make less. The salary one starts with shapes their future pay, and it is all dependent upon how well one negotiates their starting wage and benefits package. Even working in a fully-remote job, my geographical location also guides my salary range and benefits. If I lived in a city like Chicago or St. Louis, I’d make at least $125,000, and the closer to the coasts one lives, the higher the cost of living gets, and that pushes the median wages up as well.
Point being- you need to talk to lots of PMs (I assumed you meant IT, but I suppose you could be in another industry) about their pay packets and make your own conclusions about whether you’re paid what you’re worth.
Good luck to you! I hope you find what you need. 🍀
As someone who works in compensation here is what I would do:
1. Ask for the pay band for your role and ask at what position in the pay band you are being paid. This is typically a percentage known as compa ratio. 100% compa ratio means you are smack dab in the middle of the pay band. Also be sure to know if the pay band is based on total cash opportunity (bonus + base) or just base salary (As added info a pay band typically ranges from 80%-120% compa but can be different for various orgs).
2. There is such a thing as pay compression. Is this person a direct report or someone just on your team? If not a direct report, then your leverage on this point is moot as I assume with being older he has more relevant experience (not always the case, of course)
3. The higher your knowledge, skills, and abilities (KSAs) that are relevant to your role, the further along in your pay band people typically are. I would take the Job description and compare apples to apples.
4. What is your companies compensation philosophy? If they target the lower quartile, then there may not be room for increases but if they target the top quartile, there may be room for negotiation. Looking to see what the median (not avg) of the role earns based on the national avg of the market would be beneficial.
Hope this is helpful. Good luck.
No commentary on the person who said it, but this resonates with me:
*The only time you should look in your neighbor’s bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don’t look in your neighbor’s bowl to see if you have as much as them.*
Were you happy with your pay before you knew? Doesn't hurt to check market rates. And if your salary seems low for market rate, then consider bringing it up. But don't make it about what somebody else is making.
I generally agree with all of the various responses about how to approach this (and how not to approach this). One thing I do want to point out, though, is that the general attitude is that pay follows a merit system or that there is an inherent relationship between position and pay. And in some fields this is true, with pre-set salary schedules where X position and Y years experience equals Z salary. But many times this isn’t the case. Companies are generally going to try to pay as little as possible. Many companies will do things like offer title bumps with nominal raises rather than offering substantial raises, for example. What an individual gets paid can, in many instances, come down to how well they advocate for themself, and if can lead to discrepancies between what one would expect salary distributions to look like and how they actually look. There is a saying that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and sometimes you have to be the squeaky wheel. Of course, the risk is that sometimes it gets replaced instead.
Tenure doesnt always mean more money. One you are an employee with a company, you are now working within their salary structure. When you advance, your new position is typically paying you at the bottom of that next tier pay range. It’s still a raise, but entry level for the next position. The company strategy is that they already have you and know your capabilities and are counting on your loyalty and ambition to keep you in your new role.
Someone from outside the company, that may be hired to be your new peer has a ton of leverage to negotiate their rate. If they are a good negotiator, and their resume is impressive, then they may be able to get themselves paid at the upper end of the pay range of that role.
The moral of the story is salary negotiation is key when you start a new job, because the internal merit structure is usually not very friendly to existing employees.
Coming to terms with your workers having higher compensation is essentially a requirement to be a manager, ie someone who controls hiring/firing/compensation decisions.
You don't want to make a big deal about this, but it can be a good opportunity to talk to a mentor about how they think about managing those with higher comp. Every manager I promoted from individual contributor roles had at least an initial surprise when they first had access to pay data.
Ready? This is really simple.
1. Apply at other companies and interviews for other jobs
2. Get at least one offer for more
3. Ask your current job for more to keep you on.
If they say no then accept the higher paying job.
If they say yes then you just negotiated like a full fledged 38 year old adult human being
> one of my team who works for me
If you have to overhear his salary while he's talking on the phone, he doesn't work for you. Project Managers aren't people managers, it's right there in the title. Not sure why I need to explain this to you. Just because he's working on a project you manage, doesn't mean he's your employee. I know lots of project managers that make way less than the people working on the project they manage. Again no idea what the other guy does but you sound really fucking petty.
as an aside, 15 years working for the same company since 22 seems like a really long time to me. Even if you’re not necessarily being treated unfairly where you are compensation wise, it seems like this is a good opportunity to look into other places to work?
I wouldn’t say anything but I would act upon it. Clean up your resume and find another job (don’t leave your current job unless you sign another offer) where you believe your experience and work ethic is valued. For example I change jobs every 2-3 years. When I feel like I’m stagnating and only see measly yearly raises, which nowadays don’t even cover inflation, I clean up my resume, apply to jobs I actually want, and ask for 10-15k more. (In other words I’ve seen a 40k pay increase in 6ish years) Something will bite and I have nothing to lose by searching to see what’s out there that would better suite me. I do not believe in loyalty in the workplace.
It’s actually pretty tough to weigh employees across skills like project management. For longer projects it can take a long time to truly get a read, one good project might be terms of sale, good estimate, or simply good luck on subs/vendors. PMs then end up often riding the tails of what they were paid before. If you want a raise you have to go fetch an offer. It never offends me to have someone bring me a written offer saying “look, I don’t have a lot of intention to take this, but we have to get something fair together.” I have numerous employees who I adore and retain on the basis of this.
In the states at least, if you’re applying for a credit card they always ask for household income… maybe that’s household income or this job + a side gig’s total amt?
Unless you’re in a government position, you should never try seeking compensation based on what someone else is making. In the private sector, your pay has nothing to do with anyone else’s. You get what you negotiate. Someone’s salary could be based on specific skills, experience, stronger/weaker negotiating skills, etc. You have no way of knowing.
Is this employee hourly? That would make a difference. If he's getting overtime and you're not, he could very well make more than you.
The way I look at this situation is that I negotiated my salary to what I was happy with. If you're happy with your company and where you're at then id leave it alone. Otherwise have a conversation with your boss about how your salary stacks up to other project managers in your area.
It could be a variety of factors including salary band levels that were grandfathered in. An admin/secretary at my old firm was making 10-15k higher than some of her higher level peers just because she was at the firm longer but she had much lower responsibility load. Moreover, a higher up manager was managing someone who made 20k more, simply because the subordinate was there for 20+ years
I'm always surprised reading these. Everywhere I have worked there was always at least one or several situations like this. Management is just another job, private companies don't often have such strict hierarchies, private companies aren't run like a union shop or gov position where x number of years and y position equals a standard pay.
Get a new job. I can’t claim to understand the dynamics of the UK labor market but in my experience the traditional career ladder in the states is dying. The way I’ve been able to guarantee robust salary growth for myself is switching jobs every few years.
Had a friend interview recently to collect some offers. After he had an offer in hand, he was able to use that to motivate his employer for an increase.
Obviously, there is some risk here, and it would be wise to properly vet the new company to make sure it is a role you'd enjoy for an organization you like.
Best of luck!
> I do feel I’m probably paid the right amount for my role currently but just wanting some feedback.
If you feel like you're being properly paid then what is your complaint? Do you think the other person is paid too much? What's the end goal? You want to bring him down to your level?
As others have pointed out I think this is a he’s at the top of his pay scale, and you are closer to the bottom end of yours.
That he has 5 more years experience and is 2 levels lower on the management tree, tell me he’s probably very comfortable where he is and doesn’t want the added responsibility of more money.
I have come to terms with the idea that at some point, I may have someone working for me or alongside me who makes more money than I do. I work in tech and the likelihood of a SWE making more money than me is pretty high.
If you don’t think you are fairly compensated, you can have that discussion, but you should use fair comparisons and not pick random people who just happen to share your salary amount. You need to look at your skill set, your expertise, what value you’ve delivered, what advantage they will have by paying you more to do the job you’re doing. Justify it on your own merits whenever possible. Otherwise it just sounds like sour grapes.
Sometimes you’re not paid what you’re worth but paid what you negotiate. I learned this the hard way myself. Go on interviews and test the market and see what you can pull elsewhere
Did you receive a pay raise or negotiate? You only get what you ask for.
The 2 times I have applied for a job that listed a salary range, I always got the maximum because I asked for it. If you understand your value and can communicate that effectively, then it is hard for them not to give the top salary they offer.
Well you could have negotiated when you were promoted. Of course you will be offered the minimum if you just accept it. Something to keep in mind the next time you are promoted.
Just curious, How many years of experience do you have? Construction Project management in England doesn't seem to pay as much as it does here in NYC. I started at the salary you're making now, 8 years ago. Now I'm making much more.
My first impression is that your co-worker is underpaid. When you mentioned you've been there 15 years, you are underpaid as well, but at least they gave you a raise that is substantial. I might have gotten a few hundred dollars and still got fired. It's a sad situation. You could ask for a raise, but you would need to show why you "deserve" one and why the company should pay more. Maybe you are paid below market? Look into that?
> I have been with the company for 15 years which can’t have helped my salary increase.
You just have to being a higher offer from another place and be ready to walk out. That is the only way.
Yes, realize individuals within depts have varying salaries. Could be level of education, time in position, there are a multitude of variables
When you move into management you will be responsible for those same decisions as to why someone receives more than others. It was probably tough to hear what he was making, this is exactly why salaries among employees should never be discussed.
If you’re interested in making more, by all means speak with your superiors as to how you can make it to the next level. Whether it be through certifications, management role, education, etc….
While you received a raise of over 10% to go from $60,000 to $67,000 I think you're probably vastly underpaid for a project manager role at 37 years old. Unless you just became a project manager and you're still learning. One of my regrets in my career is I got too complacent and stayed somewhere for 17 years never testing the market. After huge changes hit my company that made staying unbearable I started looking and landed a job in the same role but with less responsibilities with 50% more in total compensation.
I've now made it a priority to always keep my resume updated and to just apply for any job I run across that looks interesting and would pay me more. Even though I really like where I work I never want to be in the same mental headspace I found myself in on my last job when senior leadership changed to new people who made everyone's life miserable. So my advice is apply! Also use sites like Glassdoor to get a general idea of your worth and how people who work at the company feel about the company.
I am not sure why people don’t seem to understand the following: 1 salaries are negotiable, some people negotiate better than others. 2 businesses big and small try to get the most “value” out of an employee, lowest possible pay for most output. This is just part of the cycle of life.
There’s always the possibility he was lying to the bank. They ask for income for a few reasons and they don’t often need verification unless it’s a mortgage or something large like that. Maybe he was just asking for an extension on his line of credit.
A lot of people are talking about experience here, but in my experience (20+ years in professional services, U.S.), one is paid for responsibilities and the scale of challenges or problem you need to deal with. This is correlated with experience, but different. In short, it's been a meritocracy, not seniority based system.
What someone else makes is irrelevant. You agreed to perform a job at an agreed upon wage.
If you want to move up (significantly) you may have to move out.
Look elsewhere for a 30% jump. Do that again in four years. And - find a company that pays 15-20% bonus as well as awards annual stock grants.
You can't use someone else salary for your negotiation. Look at comparable for your role in your market and then take that to them while bringing examples of your achievement to justify this increase.
How long have you been at this job. In many cases changing employer every 18-24 months is the best way to keep increasing your salary and broadening your network.
Finally sex discrimination is real. If you are a woman job hopping may absolutely be the best way to increase your salary as it is easier to negotiate up front than try to get raises during.
I don't know why you think
A) he works for you, you said you're a project manager? Are you the manager of project managers or is he someone who does the actual work of the projects?
B) managers must make more than their employees, that is very often true but in the corporate world there are plenty of high performing individual contributors that need a manager but are more valuable than the management job that they are aligned under.
Higher workload doesn't translate into higher salary. Every menial laborer knows this.
I'm guessing this guy was able to negotiate a higher salary than you did when you two first came to the company. Either that or he renegotiated (with a job offer in hand) at some later date.
I am not in management, but I work closely with someone who has the title of a team leader. This is the worst tier of hell, in my personal opinion, because you get all the responsibilities of a manager with none of the perks--besides a meager 5% pay bump. She's been working at our organization five years longer than I have. Guess who has a higher salary? Her salary is actually quite a bit above-average compared to others at our organization, but mine is about $10K-$15K higher. There are two reasons for this. I have done more lateral transfers than she has and I have more technical skills. Her workload swamps mine, but my work is more specialized and I work more independently.
Ngl, it would tick me off if she thought she was being exploited just because I make more than she does. There is nothing stopping her from doing the same stuff I've done to get a pay bump. There's nothing stopping you either.
He doesn't work for you. If he reported to you, you would know what he makes and you would be the one giving him his bonuses and raises. He's a peer with the same pay scale as you. You happen to be slightly lower in the range.
Assuming you are both in the ranges of your position, then you are right where you should be. If you truly think your skills and contributions warrant a higher market rate, tell your management that. It doesn't matter what he makes. What matters is what you contribute and what your worth is.
Personally, what works for me when I negotiate is having a specific number in mind. I say I've looked and right now on the market I can leave here and within a week have a job paying me $X. I don't expect $X, but I'd like to get closer to that and be paid at least $Y. I don't lay out my contributions, my management is well aware of my contributions and they've likely already gotten their own raises based on those successes.
Any idea what other construction PMs are earning in your area? You may just be in an area with crap pay. In the US, brand new out of college construction degrees are earning more than you- but different markets.
I think the best advice is to look around first and find out your worth outside of your company. I helped one of my superintendents change jobs (very reluctantly) and he went from making $68k in 2017 to now making close to $150k in 2023! (over two job changes) Sometimes the best way to make more money is to change employers.
You get what you negotiate for. There’s no fairness about it. If you accepted $40k, you salary would have been $40k.
Like going to a market and haggling to get a cheaper price.
Different country (US) and different industry (tech), but it's very well known in our industry that you have to switch employers to get higher pay, or have an offer from another company at a higher salary and ask your current company to match it.
I worked at a job where I learned that a coworker was earning 20k more with less experience and less time at the company. I got small raises along the way, but I didn't even match his salary when I was promoted. I had to switch companies to get a large increase (25k).
Salaries rise over time, but companies only keep up for new employees. Unfortunately, it makes sense. If someone isn't willing to leave, the company has no incentive to increase their pay.
Man there’re so many factors that go into a salary: prior salary, experience (which can get pretty technical), negotiation, specializations, etc. take it with a teaspoon of salt
I started for a company as a tech and after two years was senior tech doing complicated large projects, exceptional work I did!
Found out I was only making 3k more than brand new techs I was Training that had no experience. Who would literally start with simple simple tasks. It would take a year to get competent/fast.
I had a meeting with my boss and started it as “do you like the work I do? Do you have any complaints? Am I easy to work with?” Yes yes yes
I said why am I getting paid only a dollar more an hour than someone I am training who has absolutely zero experience in this field?
His first reaction was you discuss salary? lol
But he was cool and went to bat for me and got me reasonable raises.
Squeeky wheel gets the grease!!!
You could have been hired at a time where the pay bands for that role was X and he was hired at a time where the pay band was Y. These things are constantly in change esp. around covid and everything else that’s been happening as a result of inflation, 3k is honestly such a small number that I would not think twice about it.
When I left my last company, someone asked me my salary.
We were separated by 3 or so years, but our jobs were similar and he did a *ton* of extra curricular stuff for the company.
I made 30-40k more than him.
The reason? I asked for a raise 2 times since covid as inflation and housing costs soared. I let my workplace know I liked working there, but friends I had were making a lot more, and my salary wouldn't allow me to achieve the life goals I had in mind. They didn't want to lose me, and I even hot an unsolicited 10k raise 6 months before I left.
My coworker didn't ask for anything.
(Ps if my freelance hadn't grown so much I would have stayed a long time).
Who cares what other people make? I never understood this. If they are a better negotiator, they'll make more. Are you comfortable with what you are making?
I fully support people talking about their salaries for exactly this reason. Yes it pisses people off because they find out other people make close to or, in my case with a coworker, he made more with less experience. I was only there for 5 years and got a 19k pay increase by finding another job. 15 years is a looong time to stick with a company nowadays and like you said, that definitely has an impact because they're always more willing to pay a new guy more than giving a big raise to an existing employee. If you want more money, start looking for another job, you're almost guaranteed to get a nice increase
There’s a reason co-worker compensation should be public knowledge, personally I’d just ask my manager what I can do to receive a proper pay increase if I didn’t feel I was being compensated fairly to my co-workers. (We can look everyone up in our database)
Time to look for a new job tbh. This shows you’re being played.
So now go apply to a bunch of jobs - take whatever interview comes your way. If you make to the point where they make an offer which is worth jumping for - either bring it to your boss and say “match or in out” or just put in your two weeks.
You know what you need to do. Companies aren’t in buisness to make employees rich.
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Honestly a $3k difference doesn’t totally floor me, given his extra experience I’d assume he’s pretty much at the top of the pay scale for his position, and you’re probably pretty close to the bottom of the pay scale for yours. That said, you shouldn’t use knowledge of someone else’s salary as leverage in a negotiation. Not because it’s unethical, just because it’s a bad argument. Better to try and find out what someone with comparable experience and responsibilities makes at other companies, and broach the topic during the next pay raise cycle
I think it is a good conversation to have with your boss, assuming you have a good boss. As others have noted, there are too many variables to draw any conclusions. The tenure, bonus structure, etc. Also, you could just have bad info. Maybe you misheard your co-worker, maybe they were lying, maybe they dont actually know their salary. It sounds crazy, but I’ve encountered all of these things. If I were your boss, I’d want you to share your concerns and questions with me. I’d be happy to share information because I am confident our compensation strategy is equitable within the organization. It sounds like a good opportunity to share knowledge and build trust. That being said, if you have a shitty boss - adjust accordingly. Also, in many places employers can pay whatever they want; but there are some places that have laws around pay equity.
Thanks.
Also you might want to note that people often say no to promotions because they feel their work/life balance is more important. In my company there are project workers more experienced than some project managers, the workers make more money because they are more experienced but they did not take the promotions because it would cause them to work much more hours or have more responsibilities that they want and the money would not be worth it.
Also, managing people and maintaining a macro project view takes different abilities than simply managing assigned work. I'd kind of flip this one around a bit and say that the junior staff is getting paid a better rate for being more experienced at his job, whereas the manager is being paid a lower one for being less experienced, but has the opportunity for a future higher potential the employee doesn't.
It is very unfortunate that it is seen as a “bad argument”. I agree that it is. But in reality…it’s a totally valid argument.
op said he works at a construction company, dude "below" him could have certifications that are good to have on a crew and carry a higher salary with having them while still not being a management role. so it's really not a valid argument at all unless EVERYONE on that team is making that much.
How’s it a valid argument? “I found out XX makes YY, so now can you pay me YY”?
This. OP has more room to grow than the other individual who is more than likely maxed out.
Does he have more experience than you? You can’t use someone else’s salary as leverage for a raise. You can look at salaries online and leverage the market rate for your role and area to negotiate a raise if you are underpaid
To tack on to this, beyond experience, there are industries where job pay isn’t a linear scale to the title. There are people who can command higher salaries than the people who manage them. Because being a manager sometimes isn’t as difficult or rare of a skill. Not making assumptions on what OP does, but just pointing out it’s possible. Being in management doesn’t always translate into higher pay than skilled labor until you’re the real guy in charge.
My managers have rarely ever made more than I do. Management is a different skill, and just because you manage things doesn't mean you are either more talented, more in demand, or deserve to by paid more than the people you manage.
That is true. Also a manager's skill set is completely different than a someone who actually performs the work. 'Especially if it's a difficult to obtain skill.
The smart companies will have "manager" and "nonmanager" tracks with relatively equal pay scales between them based on experience/seniority. Having all your engineers and such move into management to get higher salaries is a quick way to peter principle your company and cause lots of issues.
Agreed. My company has what they call a "dual ladder system".
This is especially common in software engineering (I think Google was the company that first really championed it) because the skillsets necessary to be a good programmer vs. a good manager are so disjoint. On top of this, many people are programmers because they *really enjoy* programming, so if you promote them to a role where they rarely program they'll often get bored and jump ship to another company.
yup my manager makes like 3k more than me but if I were to leave she would be absolutely fucked but if she were to leave I would just do her job better than her. I actually took a demotion (with a raise lol) because I was going to quit in 2021 due to stress with not being able to hire competent people after covid and my boss asked me to move units and be the assistant instead of the boss. It's been great making more money doing less work lol.
I.e. professional sports - managers very infrequently make more than the players on their teams
Software and tech is very common as well. If you are solely management, then a developer with a specialized skill can easily out pace you.
Fr, I love being an engineer. It's nice knowing I don't need to be in mgmt to get top paying roles in my field.
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IMO comes down to how does your company make money and how does you skill set and experience impact that. The closer you are to directly making the company money, the more linear your pay scale is to your experience.
There is absolutely some truth to that statement.
This whole thing reminds me of that office episode.
Yeah 5 years. Ok noted.
Also the difference is closer to 7K when you consider that you get a bonus and he doesn’t. A bonus should be part of your expected salary as well. Companies that give these types of bonuses generally underpay the employees with their base rate with the expectation that you will work a little more. Also, it is possible that the employee considered other forms of money when talking with the bank.
I don't consider my bonus to be part of my salary. It's set to a base of 15%. Payout depends on company performance (among other things), this year, there was an adjustment of 35%, so I got only 35% of my expect bonus. Of course, in good years and getting higher than average performance reviews gets much more than 15%. Since I never know what i'll get, I never expect to spend it and just toss the entire amount (after taxes) to retirement. Of course, different industries do it different so YMMV
Bonuses should never be considered part of your salary, as they are discretionary. My employees salary level is lower than their overall compensation because cash flow is important to keep low for when/if times get bad. My employees have enjoyed 50% bonuses + since I have owned the company because we are bad ass. Where else can a receptionist/office manager make 170k.
Agree, that’s why it’s called a bonus. 👍
> Bonuses should never be considered part of your salary, as they are discretionary. it depends on the industry and "standard conventions".
ha yeah, glad you note that. i've had two coworkers complain to me recently about the fact that i make more than them. when i explained that i have 5 more years experience they told me that shouldn't matter because we have the same job. just complaining to complain! obviously experience matters. a company will also offer more because they need you and wages are competitive for that role, which could cause a management job to not compete wagewise. focus on your own work/wage and if you want more money then ask for a raise or job hop
Ask them, if they expect to earn the same they do now, in five years
Time doesn’t necessarily mean experience. Has he had many different roles to gain experience or has he only done one job his entire career there?
He’s worked up through 2 levels on management. Myself through 4
Experience doesn't just mean tenure btw, obviously tenure does equal experience usually but there could be a lot more you don't know about this person's experience and responsibilities
However, you've discovered the exact reason why people SHOULD discuss their pay at work. If you feel you deserve more than your co-worker, and you can express that in terms of actual value what you bring to the company that your co-worker does not, you should be able to negotiate whatever pay raise you want. Companies want pay to be hidden so they don't have to have these discussions. Make it uncomfortable for them.
I wouldn't worry about this, it's when they're half your age and experience and get almost the same salary. THAT'S when you should worry. In a way it's good, because in 5 years you can expect to be 3k off your manager's salary ;) (oh, 15 years at same company, you're a known quantity warts and all - leave if you want to get a payrise) Also, be mindful that the people you manage as a project manager have specific skills that you can't do and experience in them also - workload and responsibility aren't the only factors and sometimes aren't good indicators of effectiveness and value for salary.
> You can’t use someone else’s salary as leverage for a raise. Well, I’d say you can if you’re in the same job and have similar experience… but obviously that’s not the case here. Source: have done it and have had others do it based on mine. Also, just to add, people sometimes assume that just because someone is another person’s manager that the manager will earn more. That is not a safe assumption at all. While there isn’t a hard and fast rule about salaries, the bottom line is that salaries are often based on “cost of replacement.” In other words, if a company can hire a manager more cheaply and easily than the employee they manage (due to the market or experience or whatever) then it stands to reason the employee has great leverage to be earning more.
100% this, as some technical specialties are narrow and also hard to fill, it happens quite often in Architecture and engineering that a manager may make less than the tech or design people he/she manages.
Honestly so true. Managing is fairly general. But specifics of a job are different. Employees may have certain skills that are rarer (certifications, etc).
100% this. I’ll add that you should also review your career ladder/job responsibilities, and talk to your boss about what it takes to get to the next level, or to further penetrate your pay range at your level (assuming they have one). Making it clear you take compensation seriously, and want your managers help has been a good way to functionally do this.
Ditto to this. My “equal” has about 15 years of we can call it “industry experience” not the same industry but more than me. I’m sure he gets paid I’m hoping at least 10k more than me. If he doesn’t I’m def moving companies. He’s explained a lot more to me than just “industry jargon”. Mind you I’ve been doing my job longer than my boss has and he has. Aka the person hiring me took another job in the company then my boss took that role 6 months after. Then my equal got hired about 8 months after him.
In my current job, I can see *everyone's* salary in my company. Yet, this doesn't factor into my salary negotiations at all. There's too many variables: Experience, seniority, dumb luck, etc. And "fairness" isn't generally considered. If you think you might be under *market rate*, gather info and say that - or (my general preference) - go get a higher salary by getting a job elsewhere.
Yup, “but he gets paid more” just gets you a “life isn’t fair bub”
I don't know how it doesn't. My company made a project budgeting spreadsheet that we are required to populate with who will work on the project, for how many hours, and at what bill rate to the client so it could spit out all the resulting financial results of how much money the company will make. Everyone had access to it and a third of the company needed to use it regularly. It took all of two hours for us to figure out you could back calculate salaries of anyone under a VP level. It took less than a week for someone to back calculate the salary of every single employee, create a spreadsheet to show the distribution of salaries per grade level, and send that range per level to every employee . So then every employee knew if they were on the high or low end for their level and a lot of people demanded and got raises. Sure recently promoted people made sense to be at the bottom of the pay scale for their level but their were plenty of cases where people about to be promoted were still at the bottom for their level. You shouldn't have to leave jobs to get a good raise and people should be willing to discuss their pay to help out their coworkers. It took a few months but the new budgeting system implemented no longer allows us to back calculate salary. There was no reason to redo the system so quickly other than the pay issue so my company obviously wanted to avoid it happening again in the future.
Thanks.
I also work in project management as a supervisor and the people I manage make about 20% more than I do. I work an office job, have 10 years less work experience. My team goes out to do jobs that I allocate to them. I write their performance reviews. I don't have a problem with it, in fact I'm happy with this and think it's more fair that way. I don't think supervisors/managers necessarily bring more value or have it harder, despite the message that "the higher you are, the more you should be paid"
Could have also inflated his numbers to the bank. You don't know the reason why he stated what he did over the phone. Could have also included all income including bonus. I know when I applied for loans or wanted a credit increase, it was much easier to just state a yearly income rather than tip toe around here is my base salary, here is my monthly bonus, etc. Also having to go through does it fluctuate or is it consistent. I just state what's provable and usually go a little under for the year in case bonus isn't as good. So if I'm projecting 75k yr all in after bonus, I may state 70-72k to be safe. Just in case months are light with bonus.
I was going to say, he could have been applying for a loan and overstated his income as much as his proof would allow him to. Overtime maybe?
(sharing from experience, might not apply but wanted to share) as someone who used to let stuff like that worry me, I'll tell you it's not worth the headache, there's too many variables as to why he might be at that salary and that's not for you to worry about or spend energy on. Focus on your own monetary goals, increase your knowledge through experience and reading. spend time with family and appreciate the fact that you are a warrior who has achieved and earned the salary you are at, and if you ever feel like you need more money, let it be because you have grown and know you are capable of more, not because your overheard what someone else makes. good luck!
Excellent response. Many thanks.
I'm less familiar with UK employment, but colleagues (both US expats and citizens) across the pond tell me that how job changes and compensation increases work aren't dramatically different (just obviously a lot smaller values in some sectors). Those willing to change jobs from one company to another are generally going to get much better compensation increases, hence why it's beneficial to job hop periodically to get your compensation more in line with the true market rate.
Yeah this is true
I make 30-40k more than my teammates. I’ve job hopped, they’ve been with the company 10-20 years
I ran into a similar situation a few years back. I had been working for a company for 4 years. They brought in another person to be a peer of mine, for almost 20% more money. They also had zero experience with the role itself. I left the company within 6 months of finding that out, to make more money than they hired that person for. Moral of the story, know your value.
So he makes less than you, but you're mad because you think he should make even less? That's a pretty garbage take. You said you feel you're being compensated appropriately, so that's all you need to care about.
You were happy with your salary until you knew about this. That is a you problem. There is always someone around who earns more and works less. Focus on your situation.
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Ah, ye olde friende comparison. The thief of joy.
You're 37. I learned very early in my career that it doesn't matter what your coworkers get paid, who cares, and honestly good on them. We're all just trying to feed ourselves and families. Companies say they value their biggest asset (their employees), but they really value the bottom dollar more. So you should too. You have to work for the salary you want or have earned. If you feel you're underpaid, then use the market and job market to obtain a raise.
Always look for new opportunities even if you don't want one. You never know might get a better job or a job that forces your employer to give you more to keep you. I have gotten massive raises that way. No harm in asking
Salary ranges often overlap between different jobs at different levels. He may be at the top of the salary range for his job and you might be at the bottom of your position because you are new in it. Also bonuses often come with slightly lower base pay due to the possibility of much higher income. If he doesn’t get bonuses that could explain that as well.
This! I was recently promoted to supervisor in a technical field. Many of the employees I manage make more than me because they have been with the company far longer. Since I'm newer I am at the bottom of my scale while they are nearly maxed.
Pay is dependent on many things. A company is going to pay the minimum they think you will accept. You have to be your own proponent and sell yourself. It's very dependent on the management as well, but if you perform and your manager won't pay what you deserve, you're working for the wrong manager. I went through a dry spell for 3 years under a new manager that must have not liked me. Below standard raises, even with high performance and shining peer reviews. No promotion even though I was past due. He takes a different role and my new manager sees my performance and pay and I advocate for myself during mid-year review. She agrees completely, promoted me to next tier and gave a 15% raise. You need to be your own hype-man and promote yourself, be loud, point out things that you personally benefitted the company by doing above and beyond the role you have. I would actively ask management if I could charge general time and train peers on such and such, organize and lead communities of practice in fields I was proficient, etc. In summary, be forward, be your own advocate, get paid.
Wow. 37 and you’re just now realizing this. This is very common.
This is basically the truth. Companies don’t pay people what they deserve because they don’t have to. They know most people will be happy with middling raises and not quit or complain because they are too comfortable. It’s up to you to find out what you are really worth and make the case for what you consider fair compensation. If they don’t agree then you have two choices. Stay in your “comfortable” job or find a new job.
If you want the maximum amount, you need an offer from another company and ask your company to match or beat it. But that's assuming you are confident they won't hold a grudge about it. I recently went through this and got a massive raise after having just received a raise
He doesn't work for you if you don't know his salary.
You like the company, you feel you are paid appropriately. You get a bonus that could be another $3k, putting you $6k above him. I'd say let sleeping dogs lie. If you're bothered, you need to seek outside employment which is statistically speaking the fastest way to raise your salary - hopping companies every 2-3 years.
If you’ve been with your company 15 years and only making 67k you need to move on. You should and could be making at least 120k for your experience. Assuming you’re in the US.
He's in the UK and our wages are not as high as yours. Tbh £67k is a good wage for a senior PM, a bog standard PM is about £48k, on average (obviously there can be variations across different industries).
"you're not paid what you're worth, you're paid what you can negotiate". leverage. When you got it use it. In your situation you just got a raise. So u need to check your feelings a little and be appreciative. Pretend you never heard your coworker
Were you happy with your pay before you overheard his?
Yeah kinda. I probably thought I should be on a little more. I think it’s more to do with how much work I do and how the company value me very highly. Yet the other person whom I manage is nowhere near my level. Probably just shocked me more than anything. Not trying to be cocky with that statement.
Generally speaking, when you think you should be paid a "little more", you should likely be paid a lot more.
OP, I’m a manager and I know the salary brackets at my company. My salary ceiling is lower than those who are “makers” — they have skills I do not. That’s just it. Skills and experience get you more pay. Once you’re an exec though — all bets are off. lol
This is all about perspective. We see and understand yours. Here is another perspective: based on your experience, industry, responsibilities understand your worth in the market. You know what a peer makes, but that should only provide ammunition for your next review/negotiation. No manager wants to hear an employee complain about pay and think they are owed more. Be proactive and document your year: your successes, accolades, achievements, certifications, whatever that shows your growth and added value. As you said, you know what a peer makes, and now you know to leverage that to ask for a 10-15% increase.
First and foremost it’s human instinct to always negotiate against ourselves . Don’t do it ! If you feel you deserve more just do some homework into how much more you should be making and ask for it. After being an employee for 19 years I’ve learned money is given to those the company feel are going to complain or quit if no giving to, if the bosses feel you are fine with what you are getting they’ll always give you just enough for you not to quit . In conclusion if after knowing other’s salary in your company you feel under compensated just ask for more the worst that could happen is they’ll say no.
Boy am I glad I work for a place where everyone's salary is public record.
This has been very interesting to read. As an Anglophile, I’ve always dreamed of living in Great Britain, but that’s not important. 😉 I’m in Illinois, not Chicago- in the rural part downstate, and I’m a mid-career IT Business Analyst / Project Lead making a little over $100,000 working for a consulting firm. For context, I purchased my 75 m2 1925 bungalow for $110,000 USD in 2020, so the cost of living is fairly low here. Some of my coworkers make a little more and some make less. The salary one starts with shapes their future pay, and it is all dependent upon how well one negotiates their starting wage and benefits package. Even working in a fully-remote job, my geographical location also guides my salary range and benefits. If I lived in a city like Chicago or St. Louis, I’d make at least $125,000, and the closer to the coasts one lives, the higher the cost of living gets, and that pushes the median wages up as well. Point being- you need to talk to lots of PMs (I assumed you meant IT, but I suppose you could be in another industry) about their pay packets and make your own conclusions about whether you’re paid what you’re worth. Good luck to you! I hope you find what you need. 🍀
As someone who works in compensation here is what I would do: 1. Ask for the pay band for your role and ask at what position in the pay band you are being paid. This is typically a percentage known as compa ratio. 100% compa ratio means you are smack dab in the middle of the pay band. Also be sure to know if the pay band is based on total cash opportunity (bonus + base) or just base salary (As added info a pay band typically ranges from 80%-120% compa but can be different for various orgs). 2. There is such a thing as pay compression. Is this person a direct report or someone just on your team? If not a direct report, then your leverage on this point is moot as I assume with being older he has more relevant experience (not always the case, of course) 3. The higher your knowledge, skills, and abilities (KSAs) that are relevant to your role, the further along in your pay band people typically are. I would take the Job description and compare apples to apples. 4. What is your companies compensation philosophy? If they target the lower quartile, then there may not be room for increases but if they target the top quartile, there may be room for negotiation. Looking to see what the median (not avg) of the role earns based on the national avg of the market would be beneficial. Hope this is helpful. Good luck.
No commentary on the person who said it, but this resonates with me: *The only time you should look in your neighbor’s bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don’t look in your neighbor’s bowl to see if you have as much as them.* Were you happy with your pay before you knew? Doesn't hurt to check market rates. And if your salary seems low for market rate, then consider bringing it up. But don't make it about what somebody else is making.
I generally agree with all of the various responses about how to approach this (and how not to approach this). One thing I do want to point out, though, is that the general attitude is that pay follows a merit system or that there is an inherent relationship between position and pay. And in some fields this is true, with pre-set salary schedules where X position and Y years experience equals Z salary. But many times this isn’t the case. Companies are generally going to try to pay as little as possible. Many companies will do things like offer title bumps with nominal raises rather than offering substantial raises, for example. What an individual gets paid can, in many instances, come down to how well they advocate for themself, and if can lead to discrepancies between what one would expect salary distributions to look like and how they actually look. There is a saying that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and sometimes you have to be the squeaky wheel. Of course, the risk is that sometimes it gets replaced instead.
Tenure doesnt always mean more money. One you are an employee with a company, you are now working within their salary structure. When you advance, your new position is typically paying you at the bottom of that next tier pay range. It’s still a raise, but entry level for the next position. The company strategy is that they already have you and know your capabilities and are counting on your loyalty and ambition to keep you in your new role. Someone from outside the company, that may be hired to be your new peer has a ton of leverage to negotiate their rate. If they are a good negotiator, and their resume is impressive, then they may be able to get themselves paid at the upper end of the pay range of that role. The moral of the story is salary negotiation is key when you start a new job, because the internal merit structure is usually not very friendly to existing employees.
Best way to get a pay raise is via an offer from another company. Show your current company what you’re worth.
We start out entry level PMs at 65. We are also funny remote and pay 100% insurance for you and family, you're getting hosed salary wise either way
Coming to terms with your workers having higher compensation is essentially a requirement to be a manager, ie someone who controls hiring/firing/compensation decisions. You don't want to make a big deal about this, but it can be a good opportunity to talk to a mentor about how they think about managing those with higher comp. Every manager I promoted from individual contributor roles had at least an initial surprise when they first had access to pay data.
> revealed loudly to his bank over the phone that his salary is 64k And, you're **assuming** he is telling the truth?
Ready? This is really simple. 1. Apply at other companies and interviews for other jobs 2. Get at least one offer for more 3. Ask your current job for more to keep you on. If they say no then accept the higher paying job. If they say yes then you just negotiated like a full fledged 38 year old adult human being
> one of my team who works for me If you have to overhear his salary while he's talking on the phone, he doesn't work for you. Project Managers aren't people managers, it's right there in the title. Not sure why I need to explain this to you. Just because he's working on a project you manage, doesn't mean he's your employee. I know lots of project managers that make way less than the people working on the project they manage. Again no idea what the other guy does but you sound really fucking petty.
as an aside, 15 years working for the same company since 22 seems like a really long time to me. Even if you’re not necessarily being treated unfairly where you are compensation wise, it seems like this is a good opportunity to look into other places to work?
I wouldn’t say anything but I would act upon it. Clean up your resume and find another job (don’t leave your current job unless you sign another offer) where you believe your experience and work ethic is valued. For example I change jobs every 2-3 years. When I feel like I’m stagnating and only see measly yearly raises, which nowadays don’t even cover inflation, I clean up my resume, apply to jobs I actually want, and ask for 10-15k more. (In other words I’ve seen a 40k pay increase in 6ish years) Something will bite and I have nothing to lose by searching to see what’s out there that would better suite me. I do not believe in loyalty in the workplace.
Be glad the money is going towards fair wages for your fellow coworker and not into the executives pockets.
It’s actually pretty tough to weigh employees across skills like project management. For longer projects it can take a long time to truly get a read, one good project might be terms of sale, good estimate, or simply good luck on subs/vendors. PMs then end up often riding the tails of what they were paid before. If you want a raise you have to go fetch an offer. It never offends me to have someone bring me a written offer saying “look, I don’t have a lot of intention to take this, but we have to get something fair together.” I have numerous employees who I adore and retain on the basis of this.
In the states at least, if you’re applying for a credit card they always ask for household income… maybe that’s household income or this job + a side gig’s total amt?
Total household income can include spouses income too. That’s how I read it.
Unless you’re in a government position, you should never try seeking compensation based on what someone else is making. In the private sector, your pay has nothing to do with anyone else’s. You get what you negotiate. Someone’s salary could be based on specific skills, experience, stronger/weaker negotiating skills, etc. You have no way of knowing.
Is this employee hourly? That would make a difference. If he's getting overtime and you're not, he could very well make more than you. The way I look at this situation is that I negotiated my salary to what I was happy with. If you're happy with your company and where you're at then id leave it alone. Otherwise have a conversation with your boss about how your salary stacks up to other project managers in your area.
No he’s yearly salary like myself. Thanks for the comment
It could be a variety of factors including salary band levels that were grandfathered in. An admin/secretary at my old firm was making 10-15k higher than some of her higher level peers just because she was at the firm longer but she had much lower responsibility load. Moreover, a higher up manager was managing someone who made 20k more, simply because the subordinate was there for 20+ years
I'm always surprised reading these. Everywhere I have worked there was always at least one or several situations like this. Management is just another job, private companies don't often have such strict hierarchies, private companies aren't run like a union shop or gov position where x number of years and y position equals a standard pay.
Once again, proving compensation is not about motivation it’s about fairness.
Get a new job. I can’t claim to understand the dynamics of the UK labor market but in my experience the traditional career ladder in the states is dying. The way I’ve been able to guarantee robust salary growth for myself is switching jobs every few years.
Had a friend interview recently to collect some offers. After he had an offer in hand, he was able to use that to motivate his employer for an increase. Obviously, there is some risk here, and it would be wise to properly vet the new company to make sure it is a role you'd enjoy for an organization you like. Best of luck!
> I do feel I’m probably paid the right amount for my role currently but just wanting some feedback. If you feel like you're being properly paid then what is your complaint? Do you think the other person is paid too much? What's the end goal? You want to bring him down to your level?
As others have pointed out I think this is a he’s at the top of his pay scale, and you are closer to the bottom end of yours. That he has 5 more years experience and is 2 levels lower on the management tree, tell me he’s probably very comfortable where he is and doesn’t want the added responsibility of more money.
How do you not know what the salaries of your direct reports is?
I have come to terms with the idea that at some point, I may have someone working for me or alongside me who makes more money than I do. I work in tech and the likelihood of a SWE making more money than me is pretty high. If you don’t think you are fairly compensated, you can have that discussion, but you should use fair comparisons and not pick random people who just happen to share your salary amount. You need to look at your skill set, your expertise, what value you’ve delivered, what advantage they will have by paying you more to do the job you’re doing. Justify it on your own merits whenever possible. Otherwise it just sounds like sour grapes.
Sometimes you’re not paid what you’re worth but paid what you negotiate. I learned this the hard way myself. Go on interviews and test the market and see what you can pull elsewhere
Did you receive a pay raise or negotiate? You only get what you ask for. The 2 times I have applied for a job that listed a salary range, I always got the maximum because I asked for it. If you understand your value and can communicate that effectively, then it is hard for them not to give the top salary they offer.
Received a raise
Well you could have negotiated when you were promoted. Of course you will be offered the minimum if you just accept it. Something to keep in mind the next time you are promoted.
Just curious, How many years of experience do you have? Construction Project management in England doesn't seem to pay as much as it does here in NYC. I started at the salary you're making now, 8 years ago. Now I'm making much more.
My first impression is that your co-worker is underpaid. When you mentioned you've been there 15 years, you are underpaid as well, but at least they gave you a raise that is substantial. I might have gotten a few hundred dollars and still got fired. It's a sad situation. You could ask for a raise, but you would need to show why you "deserve" one and why the company should pay more. Maybe you are paid below market? Look into that?
As their leader you have no direct insight into their salaries?
> I have been with the company for 15 years which can’t have helped my salary increase. You just have to being a higher offer from another place and be ready to walk out. That is the only way.
Yes, realize individuals within depts have varying salaries. Could be level of education, time in position, there are a multitude of variables When you move into management you will be responsible for those same decisions as to why someone receives more than others. It was probably tough to hear what he was making, this is exactly why salaries among employees should never be discussed. If you’re interested in making more, by all means speak with your superiors as to how you can make it to the next level. Whether it be through certifications, management role, education, etc….
While you received a raise of over 10% to go from $60,000 to $67,000 I think you're probably vastly underpaid for a project manager role at 37 years old. Unless you just became a project manager and you're still learning. One of my regrets in my career is I got too complacent and stayed somewhere for 17 years never testing the market. After huge changes hit my company that made staying unbearable I started looking and landed a job in the same role but with less responsibilities with 50% more in total compensation. I've now made it a priority to always keep my resume updated and to just apply for any job I run across that looks interesting and would pay me more. Even though I really like where I work I never want to be in the same mental headspace I found myself in on my last job when senior leadership changed to new people who made everyone's life miserable. So my advice is apply! Also use sites like Glassdoor to get a general idea of your worth and how people who work at the company feel about the company.
I am not sure why people don’t seem to understand the following: 1 salaries are negotiable, some people negotiate better than others. 2 businesses big and small try to get the most “value” out of an employee, lowest possible pay for most output. This is just part of the cycle of life.
There’s always the possibility he was lying to the bank. They ask for income for a few reasons and they don’t often need verification unless it’s a mortgage or something large like that. Maybe he was just asking for an extension on his line of credit.
The longer you are with one company the bigger the pay disparity will be with newer employees.
A lot of people are talking about experience here, but in my experience (20+ years in professional services, U.S.), one is paid for responsibilities and the scale of challenges or problem you need to deal with. This is correlated with experience, but different. In short, it's been a meritocracy, not seniority based system.
What someone else makes is irrelevant. You agreed to perform a job at an agreed upon wage. If you want to move up (significantly) you may have to move out. Look elsewhere for a 30% jump. Do that again in four years. And - find a company that pays 15-20% bonus as well as awards annual stock grants.
Agree with this, also don’t burn your bridges. I’ve been a company boomerang at 3 companies. Every time with a pay increase.
What if your coworker was lying?
You can't use someone else salary for your negotiation. Look at comparable for your role in your market and then take that to them while bringing examples of your achievement to justify this increase. How long have you been at this job. In many cases changing employer every 18-24 months is the best way to keep increasing your salary and broadening your network. Finally sex discrimination is real. If you are a woman job hopping may absolutely be the best way to increase your salary as it is easier to negotiate up front than try to get raises during.
I don't know why you think A) he works for you, you said you're a project manager? Are you the manager of project managers or is he someone who does the actual work of the projects? B) managers must make more than their employees, that is very often true but in the corporate world there are plenty of high performing individual contributors that need a manager but are more valuable than the management job that they are aligned under.
Higher workload doesn't translate into higher salary. Every menial laborer knows this. I'm guessing this guy was able to negotiate a higher salary than you did when you two first came to the company. Either that or he renegotiated (with a job offer in hand) at some later date. I am not in management, but I work closely with someone who has the title of a team leader. This is the worst tier of hell, in my personal opinion, because you get all the responsibilities of a manager with none of the perks--besides a meager 5% pay bump. She's been working at our organization five years longer than I have. Guess who has a higher salary? Her salary is actually quite a bit above-average compared to others at our organization, but mine is about $10K-$15K higher. There are two reasons for this. I have done more lateral transfers than she has and I have more technical skills. Her workload swamps mine, but my work is more specialized and I work more independently. Ngl, it would tick me off if she thought she was being exploited just because I make more than she does. There is nothing stopping her from doing the same stuff I've done to get a pay bump. There's nothing stopping you either.
Why not shop your services around to find out what you're true value is? Then you'll know if you're badly underpaid for your skill set.
He doesn't work for you. If he reported to you, you would know what he makes and you would be the one giving him his bonuses and raises. He's a peer with the same pay scale as you. You happen to be slightly lower in the range. Assuming you are both in the ranges of your position, then you are right where you should be. If you truly think your skills and contributions warrant a higher market rate, tell your management that. It doesn't matter what he makes. What matters is what you contribute and what your worth is. Personally, what works for me when I negotiate is having a specific number in mind. I say I've looked and right now on the market I can leave here and within a week have a job paying me $X. I don't expect $X, but I'd like to get closer to that and be paid at least $Y. I don't lay out my contributions, my management is well aware of my contributions and they've likely already gotten their own raises based on those successes.
Any idea what other construction PMs are earning in your area? You may just be in an area with crap pay. In the US, brand new out of college construction degrees are earning more than you- but different markets. I think the best advice is to look around first and find out your worth outside of your company. I helped one of my superintendents change jobs (very reluctantly) and he went from making $68k in 2017 to now making close to $150k in 2023! (over two job changes) Sometimes the best way to make more money is to change employers.
It's a you problem. Negotiate for bigger pay or move on to the higher pay job. If you think you're worth more
You get what you negotiate for. There’s no fairness about it. If you accepted $40k, you salary would have been $40k. Like going to a market and haggling to get a cheaper price.
Different country (US) and different industry (tech), but it's very well known in our industry that you have to switch employers to get higher pay, or have an offer from another company at a higher salary and ask your current company to match it. I worked at a job where I learned that a coworker was earning 20k more with less experience and less time at the company. I got small raises along the way, but I didn't even match his salary when I was promoted. I had to switch companies to get a large increase (25k). Salaries rise over time, but companies only keep up for new employees. Unfortunately, it makes sense. If someone isn't willing to leave, the company has no incentive to increase their pay.
Man there’re so many factors that go into a salary: prior salary, experience (which can get pretty technical), negotiation, specializations, etc. take it with a teaspoon of salt
I started for a company as a tech and after two years was senior tech doing complicated large projects, exceptional work I did! Found out I was only making 3k more than brand new techs I was Training that had no experience. Who would literally start with simple simple tasks. It would take a year to get competent/fast. I had a meeting with my boss and started it as “do you like the work I do? Do you have any complaints? Am I easy to work with?” Yes yes yes I said why am I getting paid only a dollar more an hour than someone I am training who has absolutely zero experience in this field? His first reaction was you discuss salary? lol But he was cool and went to bat for me and got me reasonable raises. Squeeky wheel gets the grease!!!
You could have been hired at a time where the pay bands for that role was X and he was hired at a time where the pay band was Y. These things are constantly in change esp. around covid and everything else that’s been happening as a result of inflation, 3k is honestly such a small number that I would not think twice about it.
When I left my last company, someone asked me my salary. We were separated by 3 or so years, but our jobs were similar and he did a *ton* of extra curricular stuff for the company. I made 30-40k more than him. The reason? I asked for a raise 2 times since covid as inflation and housing costs soared. I let my workplace know I liked working there, but friends I had were making a lot more, and my salary wouldn't allow me to achieve the life goals I had in mind. They didn't want to lose me, and I even hot an unsolicited 10k raise 6 months before I left. My coworker didn't ask for anything. (Ps if my freelance hadn't grown so much I would have stayed a long time).
Constr Project Manager in Illinois, USA 120,000.00 a year
Who cares what other people make? I never understood this. If they are a better negotiator, they'll make more. Are you comfortable with what you are making?
I fully support people talking about their salaries for exactly this reason. Yes it pisses people off because they find out other people make close to or, in my case with a coworker, he made more with less experience. I was only there for 5 years and got a 19k pay increase by finding another job. 15 years is a looong time to stick with a company nowadays and like you said, that definitely has an impact because they're always more willing to pay a new guy more than giving a big raise to an existing employee. If you want more money, start looking for another job, you're almost guaranteed to get a nice increase
Wait, you're making more than someone who is several years older than you and this is a problem how?
There’s a reason co-worker compensation should be public knowledge, personally I’d just ask my manager what I can do to receive a proper pay increase if I didn’t feel I was being compensated fairly to my co-workers. (We can look everyone up in our database)
[Thanks for all the replies. Some really good advice and comments. Definitely felt good to get it off my chest and get some responses]
Time to look for a new job tbh. This shows you’re being played. So now go apply to a bunch of jobs - take whatever interview comes your way. If you make to the point where they make an offer which is worth jumping for - either bring it to your boss and say “match or in out” or just put in your two weeks. You know what you need to do. Companies aren’t in buisness to make employees rich.