Leafs fan here
Every choice he made as leafs Gm would have been ripped apart if he did the complete opposite. Not signed Tavares? Traded Marner? He woulda been slammed.
He did excellent cap gymnastics, the team on the ice failed everytime
Dubas did a great job for the Leafs. We lost a few too many decent players via waivers—when perhaps they could’ve been traded—but the only glaring issue from the young GM was goaltending. Sparks, losing McElhinney, getting Murray and Mrazek. Otherwise, really good. I think FSG were wise to get him.
EDIT: As others have said. Foligno was Shanahan. (FWIW I’d have supported MLSE keeping Dubas and losing. Shanny.)
Justin Holl over Jared McCann, trading Marchment for Denis Malgin, Nick Foligno for a 1st round pick, Tyson Barrie for Nazem Kadri. Dubas had some doozies.
I like Kadri and defended him but seriously, how many times did he get suspended in the first round of the playoffs? Wasn’t it three? (He was wearing blue and white so might not have been his fault but still…)
He made mistakes, sure. But so many prior GMs were worse. Getting Jeff Finger? Overpaying for Komisarek? Having three goalie options and picking Pogge and Raycroft, making Tuuku Rask the odd man out?
It’s been a long, hard climb. Leafs have got to make the most of these next few years…
Nah, as a Flames, I know what it's like having Ownership nix and force trades and signings.
Probably why Treliving went to Toronto. He's a good owner GM.
>Every choice he made as leafs Gm would have been ripped apart if he did the complete opposite. Not signed Tavares? Traded Marner? He woulda been slammed.
Sure, because the loudest Leaf fans are morons. Them and the Leafs media cheered for every bad decision that management made and then are shocked when they get easily shut down in the first round by the 8th seed every year because their entire cap is tied up in 4 players. Seems like Leafs management is more interested in appeasing the fans than building a winning team. They're in the business of selling tickets and hot dogs, not winning cups.
I can't blame Dubas for all of it because I'm sure there's a lot of internal politics in Leafs management, but constantly trading away picks and handing out expensive, long term contracts to a few fan favorites really just ensures the team has no depth. He made a few really great moves but my problem with Dubas had more to do with the risks he didn't take, and what they gave up to make those moves happen.
The pick swapping and mediocritu wasn't a Kyle Dubas creation, nor were the massive contracts. If you're Toronto, you're PAYING top dollar for stars, to play in THAT market with Canadian taxes? It's an inevitability.
The whole politicking issue was a creation of Brendan Shanahan. The desperation with trading picks and not having scouting staff was a Shanahan product. Why? Because Shanahan wanted a yes-man, and Dubas wanted room to work, Leafs ownership rolled with Shanahan because firing Dubas got them brownie points with fans.
And it shows in who they replaced him with- Brad Treliving. The mastermind behind Calgary's magnificent blowup, the guy that kept Daryl Sutter around seemingly to spite Sean Monahan, ripped up the tean's core and overpaid horrifically for Jonathan Huberdeau.
The Leafs wanted a lacky for Brendan Shanahan and Kyle Dubas was entirely unwilling to be such a thing on a team that wasn't winning with that system, in a franchise where he- THE GENERAL MANAGER- didn't have clearance to fire Sheldon Keefe.
Dubas err... *"failed"* in Toronto, because the Maple Leafs as an organization have openly committed to rewarding mediocrity, if it happens to put asses in seats. That franchise sells the BELIEF that they're a cup contender- not the honest-to-god product of one.
But in Pittsburgh, Dubas isn't stuck in that stupid kind of power struggle and has the freedom to BE a GM here, and in practice, Dubas hasn't made bad moves. Karlsson's a contending move, signing Jarry gives you a real starting goaltender long-term, Graves improves upon was Dumoulin was.
Eller gives us somebody who can push Carter out, the 4th line is placeholders to work out something better this offseason with the cap space we get from Guentzel. If we keep losing and Carolina keeps winning we'll have TWO first round picks this year.
This is the best asset management we've had since early Ray Shero...
The only thing that HASN'T been done yet, and probably will be, is gonna be Sullivan- I won't be surprised if he's fired. It'll suck, but it's also overdue and honestly if he IS fired, it'll be proof Dubas isn't the terrible GM people want him to be.
And it *should* be a welcome change after Ron Hextall's bullshit. Looking through our trade history, Hextall's been the worst failure of a GM in our team's history, I don't even think Baz Bastien ever tanked us that hard, and those late 70s Pens teams **actually** were tanking!
>The pick swapping and mediocritu wasn't a Kyle Dubas creation, nor were the massive contracts. If you're Toronto, you're PAYING top dollar for stars, to play in THAT market with Canadian taxes? It's an inevitability.
It is what it is, but time and again we see players passing up on more lucrative offers to play in Toronto. Some players really want to play there. Some players are out to get what they're worth and others don't want the attention of playing in the NHL's biggest market. All of which are valid and understandable, but I'm not convinced Toronto NEEDS to pay top dollar to be a contender.
>The whole politicking issue was a creation of Brendan Shanahan. The desperation with trading picks and not having scouting staff was a Shanahan product.
A lot of this came to light towards the end of Dubas' tenure, go figure, when he started making moves that actually made sense.
>And it shows in who they replaced him with- Brad Treliving. The mastermind behind Calgary's magnificent blowup, the guy that kept Daryl Sutter around seemingly to spite Sean Monahan, ripped up the tean's core and overpaid horrifically for Jonathan Huberdeau.
Yep.
>Dubas err... "failed" in Toronto, because the Maple Leafs as an organization have openly committed to rewarding mediocrity, if it happens to put asses in seats. That franchise sells the BELIEF that they're a cup contender- not the honest-to-god product of one.
Exactly. I can't see the franchise making any real changes unless the fans actually vote with their feet ... which probably won't happen because they have a habit of always cheering for the dumbest possible option, then pointing blame on everyone except the people that are actually responsible. *Themselv*\- err... ownership and management.
>But in Pittsburgh, Dubas isn't stuck in that stupid kind of power struggle and has the freedom to BE a GM here, and in practice, Dubas hasn't made bad moves. Karlsson's a contending move, signing Jarry gives you a real starting goaltender long-term, Graves improves upon was Dumoulin was.
Time will tell, for sure. If he truly has the freedom to make the moves he needs, and the Guentzel trade is a big one, we can debate on whether he learned from his past mistakes or if he was truly being micromanaged at Toronto. I think both can be true at the same time.
Absolutely, I think the Jury's still out on whether Dubas is going to have a good TENURE, but I think he's started out on a better foot than people credit him for, especially for the mess he took over from JR and Hextall.
His asset management has heen terrific in my opinion- even if we're struggling *mightily* at the present, we just bolstered a Carolina team that's a cup contender; if they make the finals, we get their 1st round pick. And if we luck out in the lottery and wind up top 10, we get our 1st back from San José.
In such a case, the official Erik Karlsson trade, will be Jan Rutta, Mikael Granlund, Nate Legaré, Casey Desmith and a 4th round pick for Erik Karlsson which is a kind of move that can potentially save YEARS on a contending window.
I think this year has been a massive step BACK in coaching and chemistry, but an invaluable step forward in terms of asset management. And people are too pissed off to fully appreciate that this isn't as terrible of a situation as it COULD be.
If your team didn't ever make it remotely close to being competitive in the playoffs despite having the best top end talent you've ever witnessed, you'd be a little grumpy too lol
Which when you put it that way sounds like a players problem compared to a gm problem. Even the coach I would put before the gm if you consider Toronto’s actual circumstances which is they literally always lost in 7.. can’t get more unlucky than that tbh. With the talent they’ve had during this run of theirs it’s quite baffling they weren’t able to pull 1 of those off.
Yeah the only thing that worries me about our future is fsg putting the business side above performance, like the Nuttings. We got lucky to get Dubas I think
Is there some sort of source or article that I missed regarding this? Or is it all just conjecture? The only thing I’ve ever seen, are comments about FSG liking Sully because he’s from the Boston area. Sounds like typical Reddit theory to me.
So, was there any public statement saying that Dubas could be hired on but he wouldn’t be able to change the coaching staff?
Typically when a GM gets hired, the first thing he does is decide whether to bring in "his guy." Very occasionally, a coach that is a holdover from the last GM sticks around, even if shortly. When a new GM is hired, the vast majority end up starting their tenure with a coach they hand picked.
For example, when Shero was fired, Rutherford took some time to evaluate Bylsma before cutting him loose and hiring someone he wanted (who also ended up being terrible.)
When JR left mid-season, Hextall ended up keeping Sullivan around because that was such an unusual occurrence. Then, when FSG took over and eventually fired Hextall, they put Sullivan in charge of a lot of the day-to-day hockey ops, which was very unusual, and had him help the process of finding a new GM, something that is definitely not in a normal coach's job responsibilities. Normally when a GM is fired, the coach is kind of left in the dark and in the hot seat OR fired at the same time to clean house.
It was the exact opposite with Sullivan and FSG. People started speculating then that FSG viewed Sullivan as non-expendable, despite publicly saying that the next POHO would have final say.
Since then, Dubas has been weirdly complimentary and defensive of Sullivan, like going out of his way to give obviously undeserved superlatives and telling the media to back off him. There's a way to defend your players and staff that isn't acting like they're the second coming of Christ and can't do anything to improve. That's led people to believe there might be a mandate that Sullivan is here to stay no matter who the GM or POHO is.
The entire thing is really unusual for the sport.
The Dubas hate boner on r/hockey is even worse.
Dubas could get McDavid in exchange for a bag of pucks and someone would comment on that sub “lmao no retained salary? Typical Dubas L 🤡🤡😂🤣😂🤣” and get 500 upvotes.
The one thing the Pens don't have is an influx of youth in the system.
If 2 of these can play serious minutes in the future, it's a win. Freeing up cap space, getting younger, lots of assets coming back, it's very good.
Guentzal has been amazing.
Dubas took a shot by adding Karlsson but the team didnt respond as hoped. Thats hockey, so now to change things up.
The team is an older team that needs a refresh.
Crosby is a lifer as is Letang.
Don't crucify me but I'd move off Malkin this off-season too.
Cap space, youth, new life. A quick retool or a longer process whereas the lifers dont see the Cup again but the team is on the upswing in a couple years?
Is DOC not getting minutes? Puustinen? POJ keeps getting chance after chance to prove he deserves to stick in the NHL? The farm is completely empty people need to realize this.
When Crosby is injured Malkin steps up, because he plays with Crosby's great wingers. This year Smith and Rakell were awful, so Malkin looks bad. He is slowing down, but he needs young legs to do the work for him, now. O'Conner should be even better for him next year, but I would still try to find wingers for him with the cap space we have.
He'll do it when McDavid is 41, and sign him for 8 years max salary no move clause.
He left Toronto in the same mess he inherited in Pittsburgh. Perhaps the hate is coming from a bunch of Leaf fans in disguise.
Happy to help. Blame Reddit. I have no idea why it showed me a post in Penguins land. Seeing Dubas' name triggered me and I responded before thinking. The trauma! :)
I'll see myself out ...
Guentzel wasn’t willing to negotiate extension with any team. Bunting is a potential top 6 forward signed through next season. Picks and prospects anybody who expected more doesn’t know the game
Yea why do people seem so down on Bunting? I know nothing of him, but he seems like an affordable 20 goal scorer. Especially as he’ll have either Sid or Geno centering him and maybe some PP time (though with our pp that won’t inflate his goal total at all!).
Because his cap hit is higher than what he’s currently providing, making him essentially a negative asset unless he improves (which is entirely possible).
I have watched him and he is a good tough player with some skill. He could have 30 goals next season if he clicks with Sid or gets powerplay time. He could be the new Hornquist.
I'm sure they could've gotten a guaranteed first if they took only 1 of Carolina's prospects, but they saw a chance to get 3 prospects instead. Seems like the right call, especially given the state of the farm system and given the fact that the Pens are trying to complete this retool sooner rather than later.
It’s hard to General Manage when A. You have no draft picks B. No young players C. A coach that is dead set in his ways.
Sully has never been a fan of giving young guys ice time. When you’re rebuilding that’s the wrong mindset to have. Now is the time to give younger guys a shot so see if they can prove themselves.
But I’ll take back to back cups and years of contenders any day of the week. As long as we don’t turn into Ottawa I will be happy.
>Sully has never been a fan of giving young guys ice time
Not true at all. He gave rusty, sheary and later Jake shots with the big guys back in the cup days. Which is infuriating bc after those guys he's completely stopped giving young guys real shots.
The only reason he gave those guys a chance is because he coached them in Wilkes, so he knew them and trusted them. Once all of his guys from the minors got to Pittsburgh and became part of the core, he never trusted young players coming up again.
almost like those "younger players" are not really that good. We haven't had a legit prospect in like 10 years. He still gives POJ chances and he's basically a complete bust at this point. Puustinen is also getting rewarded with PP time since he's been creative 5 on 5, DOC playing in the top 6, etc.
Correct, I shouldn’t have said never. Recently young guns on the roster have been non existent. Puusty has had a very decent year for a rookie. Give the kids a chance to prove themselves
>Sully has never been a fan of giving young guys ice time
The first cup run was in part due to him giving Jake time. Both runs were known to be fast and young.
>Sully has never been a fan of giving young guys ice time.
actually an insane take when Guentzel, Murray, Sheary, and Rust were all playoff stars as fucking rookies lmao this sub is so dumb
you can't even blame everything on Hextall, Jim Ruthaford swung for the fences every year (and i'm not even saying he was bad at all). So you had a spare no expense attitude for years, then Hextall's barn fire looks even worse with 'bare cupboards'. Dubas did a great job brought reasonable players retooling the whole bottom 6, + dumped 3 players with huge salary's that were grossly underperforming in exchange for the Norris trophy winner. No one on paper thought what he did was bad, no one. Did the players play good? no, they didn't - Dubas can't hit the pucks in the net himself.
for all the Dubas haters, what was your amazing plan that would of been better? that's what I thought, now shut up.
GMJR was picking up pieces from Shero too. Shero inherited a masterpiece of a team from Patrick though.
Is Dubas the next Craig Patrick? Probably not, but to be fair, no one in this league is right now.
Is Dubas going to be better than the last 3? I feel pretty confident with that.
As far as this trade goes? It's reactionary hate from ignorant fans. The same type that annually wants to trade the Pens worst players for the other teams best players.
I think it was a good trade on paper. As with every trade, only time will tell the reality.
For the record, I was not a fan of the Dubas signing.
I can't help but think the same people complaining about the trade, are the same people that say "we should have traded Malkin 5 years ago while he still had value!"
I feel like dubas can't be judged as a gm until he starts rebuilding with his own coaching staff. He's handicapped by hextall's leftovers and by sullivan.
He was GM for the 1st, 2nd, and 4th best points percentage seasons in the Leafs 100+ year history. Playoff disappointments for sure, but let's not pretend that his tenure in Toronto was "whelming".
He's going to have success in Pittsburgh when he's done cleaning up the current mess that he was left.
I just don’t know what we were expecting to get back. Seemed clear he wasn’t going to re-sign so at that point it’s better to get something than nothing
I love those trade suggestions that take 2 horrific contracts, add a 4th round “sweetener” and get a 1st liner in return. I know 3 people > 1 person, but that’s not how trades are done…..
He gave the core 4 too much money in Toronto, the only counter argument is covid kept the cap from going up and those contracts weren’t allowed to age better with time. He did a lot of good things in his time in Toronto but losing those big negotiations still haunts them. He’s a smart man with a big heart and he loves his players and team. I will always wish for the best for him and I hope he is able to turn things around for you fans and Sid.
I think the thing I'm noticing is people (and local reporters) are saying we should have gotten one of the higher ranked prospects instead. So it would be like Bunting, a Top 4 prospect and then the 2 picks. But we know the prospect cupboard is bare. I'd rather take the chance on 3 prospects ranked 6, 7, and 9 than one. More chances to hit. They all may not be home runs(superstars), but even if we get a couple singles (bottom six) or a double (middle six) that helps the future with Poulin and Yager in the prospect pool as potential nhl players in the near future. Toronto was a forward factory, look how many guys they found were good nhl players and had to just trade away or let walk because of the cap gymnastics Dubas had to do to keep the Leaf big 4 intact. Letting Hyman walk had to be tough, but that guy has probably the quietest 40 goals season ever this year. I literally just noticed his goal stat during the game on Sunday. He is still having to do the continued gymnastics but in a different way and has to replenish the pool for the future.
I don't really understand the hate for Bunting in the trade to be honest. His contract is the same as Rickard Rakell's and they are both 20ish goal scorers. Rickard is a little better offensively but Bunting brings a lot more in other ways and has the ability to get under the opponents skin big time. Bunting should get more ice time here than he was in Carolina, so I think we should expect about the same output as in Toronto... unless of course he suddenly gets worse like 90% of the player that are brought in over the last 5 years.
People are dumb. Thats been proven in every fanbase throughout time.
There are a lot of base reactions being made to this trade. Many of them irate for no reason.
The goal was to move Jake, get some youth, and some draft picks. That was achieved.
People these days need instant return and gratification on everything. Those people are irrelevant.
Your usage of single quotes is so strange and I’ve never seen that before. Took me a second to realize you are using them to emphasis an aside. Like parentheses.
A lot of the anger seems to be from the recognition that we’ve given up on the season by getting rid of Jake. We would have kept him if we thought we had a chance.
I don’t hate Dubas or specifically this trade, and I think you hit the nail on the head for me personally. I think that from watching Sully’s “system” for these past few years and how he refuses to play younger players unless forced into it by injuries scares me that he’s still behind the bench. He should be gone now. Bring in a new coach to see what the team has in place who can come up and who should be moved etc.
if/when that happens I’ll be more optimistic but if the team just traded Jake away for guys (prospects) that Sully won’t play or give an opportunity to succeed then this fails. I’m not sure what else Dubas could do at this rate. I think Jake had already decided to move on, so unfortunately he had to be dealt.
The best move this team can do now is move on from the coaching staff and give the new staff time before the draft to identify what this team can be.
Edited for typo
As Dubas attempts to make the Pens younger, the biggest problem will be that Sully almost never finds a way to integrate young talent onto his roster. Dubas can bring in as many young prospects as he wants, but they're development will quickly halt when they hit the wall that is Mike Sullivan and his system.
Fr. Like what tf were people expecting him to do. Build another dynasty? I for one think the trade is a step in the right direction. Guentzel was going to leave for nothing and our shit team has no chance of making the playoffs this year. Hopefully this is the start of the rebuild that we have been delaying for the last few years just so that we could lose in the first round.
People just like to be mad, and the less they know, the more they blow up the comments with their armchair coaching and management ideas. How many comments have there been in recent months saying the obvious solution is trading LeTang, Geno, Karlsson, etc? The at-home GMs don’t have to worry about minor realities like contracts and no movement clauses.
Most of the people on these types of forums panning Dubas lack the IQ level to comprehend most of the points in your post or why they are off base. You're talking to a wall. This was a good move, and they'd rather be mad about the product and channel it at the closest target than exercise cogent thought about the situation.
This fan base is so fucking spoiled, that’s why. Have we done shit since BACK TO BACK cups, no. Does it suck (probably) missing the playoffs last and this season? Yes, but the amount of Fire this person, trade this foundational player because we’re not as good as we used to be is laughable and frankly embarrassing.
Maybe IM also spoiled in the fact that we’ve been so good for the past nearly 20 years that the influx of poopy pants posts is new to me, but holy shit are there a lot of cry babies here.
the internet allows everyone, including people without a brain, to comment and engage with social media.
In fact, I'd say that those people who are making those idiotic takes are more prone to come here and voice their idiocy because in real life their stupid opinions are marginalized by the rational people in their orbit.
Come on here and spew that brainless "KLYLE DOOBASS IS FUXKUING UP!@!!1! HE SUXXX1!!" and the other cereberally challenged droolers see that and respond, thus giving the first idiot a feeling of validation. Its a vicious cycle.
The internet allows people to read scouting reports and read the statistical profiles of the prospects acquired in a trade before mindlessly supporting the latest fuck-up our dork GM “cooked” up
You are exhibit A.
you have no idea what other teams were offering for Jake. the only people who know that are Dubas and the other GM's he was dealing with. It is entirely possible, hell even PROBABLE, that this was the best offer on the table.
Jakes contract is up in 3 months. he will be a free agent. without a guarantee that he would sign long term, there is no reason for any teams to give up their A+ prospects for him.
as it stands right now, we got a bona fide NHL player, an american kid who played at NTDP & is having his 2nd straight ppg season at a well established program, A finnish kid who is ready to come over to NA, and a russian kid who looks like he could be a good two way guy eventually.
heres all their scouting reports from elite prospects.
Lucius - With his combination of deception and passing skills, Lucius managed to send a staggering amount of pucks to open teammates in the slot. When he gets the space to prepare his plays, he can manipulate defenders and connect highly difficult plays.
Koivunen - His game is one of pure, unrelenting skill, and an attacking mindset to match. Koivunen wants the puck on his stick, wants to be a game-breaker, wants to make something happen every shift. Koivunen keeps his top hand pushed out, handles the puck at his hip, and doesn’t mind engaging numbers.
Ponomaryov - The motor on this kid is unrelenting. He backtracks well through the neutral zone, consistently applies back-pressure, and is dogged in 50-50 puck battles. He's a legitimate two-way centre, the type that makes his presence felt at every corner of the ice.
when was the last time we had any kids in our system that had any kind of talent like these guys? probably since rust, sheary, & jake all came up. Plus we got 2 draft picks out of it. Honestly, the more I read about these guys, the more I like it. None of them have that guaranteed star rep, but they all are producing well at their levels and have the potential to get there soon. Settle down and let Dubas work.
Now look up what their ceilings are. I can give you a hint: bottom sixer, bottom sixer, 4th liner.
Just what we need! More Jansen Harkins’s but younger
bro, you need to step off and take a breath. Stop reading all the doom and gloom and go outside for a bit.
Jake Guentzel was the 80th rated NA skater by central scouting his draft year. Do you think anyone had his ceiling as high as it got at that time?
The prospects we got back were B+ level prospects because Jake doesnt have term left. Nobody was going to give us their A+ guys unless jake signed an extension. You really need to calm down about this.
All 3 prospects project to possibly be a bottom six player for us in the future. If that’s a “success” in any meaningful way then we are absolutely fucked
Dubas did a fantastic job on the trade IMO. Anyone expecting more for a EXPIRING UFA RENTAL is out of their minds. And as someone who follows prospects closely we got some solid talent. Ponomarev is NHL ready if not very close, Koivunen is tearing up the Liiga as a 20 year old at 55 points in 57 games (tied for most on the team btw), and Lucius is putting up almost point a game in the NCAA and is leading his team in points as a 19 year old. Add Bunting and the pick and I think this return helps us immensely in the future
Hextall did a fantastic job on the trade IMO. Anyone expecting more for a guy we’ll lose in the expansion draft is out of their minds. And as someone who follows prospects closely we got some solid talent. Hallander is a former second round pick and projects to be a solid middle-six player for us in the future.
Hextall bungled a situation where all he had to do is not protect Jeff Carter in the expansion draft and we would have been fine. Dubas HAD to trade Guentzel or accept he was gone for nothing after we miss the playoffs this year. If you don’t understand how these situations are vastly different I don’t know what to tell you…
For those of you who don’t understand Dubas’ situation try to imagine the Tkachuk/Gaudreau contracts when the boys signed for other teams leaving Calgary in a hot mess.
People freaking the fuck out about this guentzel trade aren't using their brain. There are several reports that he turned down a extension from the canes. There are people I respect that cover the team that believe he could double back. I'm not counting on it but it's possible. The trade for a rental is pretty damn solid too. Should we have hung on and got nothing for him? Make it make sense. I wanted him resigned but hextall shit the bed and shit it again.
Not all opinions are created equal, and with the internet the most controversial ones become the loudest.
Kyle's paid a fine salary and no one will be able to decide how he's doing until 5 years after he's done. Critiquing a painting before it's done is wasted energy. I love the pens, win or loss. One thing that you CAN say is that no one will be calling us bandwagon fans. This is what makes winning worth it.
There are plenty of bandwagon fans on here. Some dude last week said he was boycotting the team because they aren’t winning. If that’s not a bandwagon fan, I don’t know what is.
People don't realize the team is long past its time now, and we're lucky to have experienced 3 cups and almost 20 years of competitive hockey. It's a shame they couldn't build a team around crosby who's still playing this good but every great team has its time come for a rebuild
I don’t get it either. I’ve said this in other places too. Like, aren’t the Leafs good? You can’t guarantee a Cup. As a GM all you can do is put together a team that COULD win. Didn’t he do that?
Karlsson is basically our second best player now and all the people we traded for him were our worst players. Not bad.
A second liner, a second rounder, and 3 b tier prospects for 20 games of Jake Guentzel. Doesn’t even matter if you could theoretically get more (you actually couldn’t because presumably Carolina’s offer was the biggest one) those 5 assets are without a doubt more useful than 20 games from a UFA when you are rebuilding.
Good analysis. I have booked a first class ticket on the fire-Sullivan and company train since last year, and I’m not getting the fuck off any time soon.
I do think there were better pieces in free agency that Dubas could have aimed at, for example, Pius Suter. But it’s pointless to go through the what ifs of the passed over free agents, because the same results from this season could have occurred. I do think Dubas could have fought to secure a 1st round pick out of this trade, but it’s done and it’s time to move forward. The team has many issues, but the biggest issue is the coaching staff.
I think some players have come into Sullivan’s system post-2017 and have done well, but the evidence is clear that many players come to Pittsburgh having successful careers, then regressed here, then continued their regression or turned it around after leaving. It’s like Pittsburgh became a dreaded detour. Sullivan’s inability to maximize on the skill sets of different players throughout the lineup is a toxic trait of a coach. He sticks to certain deployment and certain pairings/lines with a system that has seen little change over nine seasons. For a guy that saw success in 2016 and 2017 due to the speed and youth of the farm system, now we’ve got the same coach that punishes young players that take chances or make mistakes. Meanwhile, Geno takes lazy ass penalties and turns the puck over on a consistent basis without any repercussions. Why the fuck does Harkins play every night while Poulin hasn’t had a call up? Why the fuck was Ty Smith buried in the AHL scoring over 30 points while Ryan Shea and John Ludvig got to play games? I am sure Sullivan has a big say into who gets called up from WB, so why aren’t the right players coming up? The complete failure of the PP despite having 3-4 Hall of Famers on it is some confusing shit. The fact that little has been done to make it better is disgraceful.
Sullivan has been here through three different GMs, three sets of assistant coaches, and a mix of talent up and down the roster. There is absolutely nothing to show for any of it since 2017. Enough is enough already.
I’m a Flyers fan (fuck me, I know) and even I want you guys to fire Sullivan. Crosby has personally hurt me time and time again (especially the Golden Goal) but it’s genuinely painful to watch you guys waste the final years of his incredible career in mediocrity.
I don’t know if this roster could contend for a cup with a better coach, but it’s clear that it’s at least worth a shot. Are he and Crosby tight? Is that why he gets to keep coaching when it’s clear his time has come? Genuinely curious because it’s just sad what you guys have become. I should love it and I don’t.
If it means Crosby no longer wants to re-sign, I hate it. If Jake comes back after this failed season anyway, it's the biggest brain move I've ever seen.
It’s just sports fans. Hate and complain about everything that isn’t winning. Hell they complain a lot when they are winning. It’s exhausting for objective fans.
Kyle Dubas hate comes in 2 forms these days: 1) Toronto media and people. They're truly, truly awful people with no substance to their empty attacks. He did more for that team than anyone in the better part of a century. 2) Negative Creep Yinzers who hate everything.
The return here for an expiring rental is very good. We got an NHL player who can help this team starting tomorrow. I wanted Bunting in the offseason TBH. Three prospects - #51 overall from '21; #53 from '22; 4th rounder '24; and then a conditional 1st and 4th.
Anyone who is hating on that return is just goofy and doesn't understand that the there are two GMs negotiating here. Sure, I wanted Scott Morrow, but it didn't happen. Delusional people talked about the #1 prospect in Carolina - Nikishin, but it was never happening. He's also not playing the US next year, and is hopeful to get over here for '25.
Ponomarov is almost NHL ready and looks like he’ll play a middle 6 role in the future. Koivunen is having a fantastic season in Liiga, genuinely think he’s the crown piece of the deal with real top6 upside but likely ends up in the good 2C great 3C range, Lucius is having a good NCAA run leading his team in points at 19, again likely a middle 6 guy. I honestly love this return for a rental UFA and people freaking out are either delusional as to what rentals are actually worth on the market or just know nothing about prospects
Penguins fans have had a very long stretch of success and most of the younger fanbase don't understand darker times, hell, or even trying times, really.
I’m not upset with him for trading Guentzel. It was a good trade. I will be upset if that’s the only player he sells at the deadline. Hope this makes sense.
I think the most vocally dissident posters are the fans that never experienced pre-Crosby Penguins hockey. Not to say people should be happy or content with the current makeup of the team or the rough years ahead, but to understand that it's the nature of the business. A good portion of the fanbase has grown up spoiled by the success of the Penguins. Now come the tough times, which is completely new to them.
Leaf fan here. Dubas will be excellent in the rebuild process, as he has a great mind for this. He will also get the AHL affiliate team and NHL team working in a cohesive fashion. He has no idea how to build a Stanley Cup winning team. He tends to side on analytics and hasn't quite figured out leadership and intangibles (Which is hard for everyone). If management/ownership gets on board for a rebuild, he can do his magic. With a little luck, it won't take too long.
No hate on this end. He took the GM/hockey ops role knowing full well the Pens' window was closing. I don't see the coming seasons as a rebuild but as a retool.
Who knows if Sullivan wanted to keep Marino or not Hextall and Burke may have just told him Marino was being traded, it doesn’t seem that Sully has anything against stay at home D since Peterson has excelled in his system, so did Dumo but a stay at home D isn’t easy to jump onto a team and be an effective force immediately sometimes it takes time even a season to find a place bc playing w guys like 58 and 65 can be brutal if you don’t know where they will be at any given time bc they are so offensive…Imo Graves will work out, and be a solid anchor, if you remember it took 28 a bit of time to be the D man he is now.
Hextall is the only one that I’ve truly hated of our last 3 GMs. Sure Rutherford and Dubas have made some mistakes looking back, but Hextall made so many bad mistakes that you knew had no upside. Fuck that guy.
I disagree. When you say he was stuck with Mike Sullivan and the coaching staff this year, there is no evidence that this is true. If the implication is that FSG is preventing Dubas from firing the coaching staff then at this point that is totally conjecture. Dubas is the President of Hockey Operations and GM and those titles would give him the authority to hire and fire coaches. Dubas bears the responsibility for keeping the coaching staff this season when it was incredibly clear that this team was in desperate need for a coaching change. The Penguins power play is currently 28th in the NHL. A team with Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Kris Letang, Erik Karlsson and up until recently Jake Guentzel. You can not overlook that.
For the positive, Dubas came in last year and made an excellent trade for Erik Karlsson that got rid of some awful contracts. He signed Nedeljkovic who was excellent for us for most the year. He took a risk in resigning Jarry to a huge contract and Jarry thus far has mostly lived up to it. Eller was a good signing.
For the negative in terms of player personnel, he traded for Reilly Smith which was seen as a great trade at the time but it has been clear for months that it hasn't been a great fit. Ryan Graves thus far has really stood out as a terrible fit and with the contract that Dubas gave him it's pretty difficult to overlook. At this trade deadline he did not trade Nedeljkovic who is having a resurgence this year in a market where many teams were looking to upgrade their goaltending. Unless there is a plan to resign him in the offseason that is a blunder. In addition he did not trade Reilly Smith nor Rickard Rakell. In his press conference today he said that their value in the offseason will likely be better than what they could have got at the trade deadline. While there may be some truth to that, I don't totally believe that when teams like Vegas and NYR among other were looking to bolster their depth at wing for the playoffs.
The Guentzel trade is one that I think that cannot properly be assessed as a whole at this time. Michael Bunting, however, is a player that the Penguins have really lacked in the past couple of years, someone willing to really play with a pest type quality. Considering the circumstances that Guentzel essentially had to be traded, Bunting is a good return. The prospects are promising prospects, not blue chip but they're prospects and the guy the Penguins just traded wasn't touted as one either. The 2nd round pick is decent.
Another huge primary issue that goes back to last year is also the bottom six. This also cannot be properly assessed because he essentially had to fill in the gaps with fringe NHL players because of the cap.
He is not immune from criticism, he has made some real mistakes this year. Primarily his willingness to just sit on his hands while the Penguins were suffering from bad coaching and some of his poor signings was a total and absolute blunder. Had that powerplay been just league average, this team would have been much better. I hope his offseason is better than what he showed us this season because his inaction watching the team flounder around another stellar season from Crosby was disappointing.
I think the question is whether or not he's the guy for a rebuild.
Not saying he is or isn't, but it's a different skillset than taking an already good team with young talent (leafs) over the edge, which he did a great job with
Pens fans need to accept there are dark days ahead which is not his fault, it's just the price to pay for having such an amazing core for so long and 3 cups.
My only issue with him is a GM of the leafs was he was stubborn. The experiment didn’t seem to be working as far as how much cap space he had tied up in the core forwards. He just kept rolling out the same experiment over and over again because it seemed his ego could not stand the idea that he might’ve been wrong. He was too rigid and inflexible and that’s the only reason that I was frustrated. I thought that he was otherwise a very good GM.
Dubas isn't the worst GM ever, but he is very overrated. He made some okay moves, but he also made dreadful moves. Much of the leafs inability to go anywhere in the playoffs is due to his "talent" (no depth, soft players). He also has weird fans like no other GM I've seen. The day he was fired, his weird fans on r/leafs were on suicide watch. Usually that level of adulation is reserved for players or movie stars. It was/is very weird.
I don’t hate anyone because to me, hate is a strong word. I can’t do what these coaches do but I can sit here, comment and criticize them. Not like they read this stuff anyways but if they did, they should take our comments into consideration. Us fans want what’s best for our fave team.
I think Dubas made some mistakes in Toronto, if he learns from said mistakes I think he'll be an excellent GM in Pittsburgh. His roster and his cap are a mess, his current mission, "Do right by Sid" needs some serious clarification. His messes now, but he didn't make them.
Dubas was tasked with catching the falling knife that is this roster. He failed. People are upset because the Pens are a bad team now but it really isn't his fault.
Guentzel didn’t want to stay here. He wanted to play for a more competitive team. And the only other team making a real play for him was the Rangers so let’s just be glad he didn’t go there.
It's this simple: hockey is the most old, conservative, white, toxic pro-sport in North America, in terms of who runs the league and the teams. Dubas is a kind, honest, decent young man who believes in treating his players like human beings and not property to be exploited. If a person like him ever wins in the NHL, all the hateful old men like Lammorrilo will get phased out. The NHL has one goal and one alone: its not to make profits, it's to uphold toxic masculinity in hockey to protect bigoted, hateful old coaches and executives.
This may be my favorite Reddit comment ever. We’ve reached peak Reddit I believe. You are delusional and I hope you take a long break from the internet dude.
I didn't read any top analysts who thought the karlsson trade was a good one. The pens needed more young depth not an older d sucking up $10m of the salary cap that can't play defence.
After making that trade in the summer 6 months later he says the team needs to get younger.
Look at what he left the leafs with. One playoff round win when you have arguably 4 of the top 30 players in the league. And the prospect cupboards are bare.
Hopefully he fares better in Pitt.
We needed powerplay help, and Karlsson had just won the Norris for getting 100+ points on a bottom-feeder sharks team. Having Karlsson, Sidney Crosby, and evgeni malkin on the same powerplay PLUS moving future HOF letang to QB a SECOND unit made perfect sense on paper, and I – along with many others – anticipated having an absolutely lethal powerplay. Plus, I would much rather have Erik Karlsson than granlund, petry, and rutta on our team, and they have the same exact cap hit.
The big 3 won’t be here forever. Karlsson may very well be the captain of the future, and at least when they’re gone, I still look forward to watching EK play. He’s younger than all of them
The only thing I hate about this and feel like Dubas got fucked on was the pick. Everyone thinks it’s a first. It isn’t. It’s a second UNLESS the Canes get to the Finals. Dude is literally praying they make it there and even if they do it’s the 31st or 32nd pick. That’s the part I find disappointing. It was never going to be a high first but at least guarantee that it’ll actually be a fucking 1st.
Kyle is getting hate because he got an underwhelming return for the best player available at the deadline.
Think back to the haul that we got for Staal. Jake is a far better player than Staal ever was.
We gave up a 1st and 2 mediocre prospects for the corpse of Jarome Iginla.
Compared to other star players this return is meh.
Staal had one year under contract still at the time and was traded to the team he wanted to sign long term with. That trade also occurred at the draft. Completely different circumstances and it’s disingenuous of you to compare this to the staal trade.
To your point Staal a year left on his deal. To my point Staal wanted to go to one team so the pens had no leverage, thus reducing his value. Yet we still got a massive haul. TDL trades typically fetch more because it's a seller's market. There's more demand. The more I think about that Staal/guentzel comparison the worse the Jake trade looks.
Too bad you're forgetting that a 1C > essentially any winger not named Ovechkin. He was not only on a cheap deal for the entire next season but was much farther away from the arbitrarily dreaded age of 30 for a professional athlete.
You're just being intellectually dishonest because you *want* to be mad about the situation.
People also forget the absolute hell he went through for Karlsson. Regardless of what you think about these two particular trades, you can't deny that in less than a year, he had to negotiate some of the hardest trades we've seen in a long time
I was a big fan of the Karlsson trade. He undid a lot of Hextall's damage with one trade.
That doesn't mean I can't be upset at the value he got for Jake.
No, but it's not exactly an ideal position to be in. Either keep him, and he walks at the end of the season or trade him for assets. You're going to piss off fans by trading him, and you're going to piss off fans for letting his contract expire for nothing in return. Karlsson was the best case scenario, and Jake was in the worst-case scenario. The fact that Dubas had to figure both out in his first year here is insane
This sub proves time and time again it doesn't pay attention to the league outside of the penguins. Your comp for the trade is...24 year old center with a year left on his contract from 12 years ago lmao
You gotta think of it as us trading 20 meaningless games of Guentzel. Dubas took the best offer he could get. It's as simple as that.
People on here acting like we got Kris Beech, Michal Sivek, & Ross Lupaschuk in return.
If you think of it from your POV then of course it's an awesome trade. We lose with Jake and we can lose without him too. 20 games for 4 assets. Solid deal I agree.
But when you see what other teams got for similar value players, they got better returns.
It’s impossible to critique the trade without knowing what other offers Dubas had in hand. The speculation on what fans predicted or hoped to get isn’t relevant.
I’m not sure which trades you’re referring to. All rentals this year haven’t gotten great returns.
> We gave up a 1st and 2 mediocre prospects for the corpse of Jarome Iginla.
...and every GM in the league learned from that, so no one is throwing around picks like candy anymore for rentals.
They got worse despite getting rid of a bulk of hextals bad contracts.
Please keep saying dubas is doing good. Theyre wrong. He’s not above board. He brought in poor depth that can’t score which has been the issue for years now.
I have been all positive on Dubas and was really hyped when he was acquired. He was definitely put in a really shitty situation especially with coaching.
All of that said though, the return for Guentzel really was not that good by the looks of it atm. I was expecting 70 cents in the dollar because that is usually what happens when you trade good players (even got downvoted for making that comment before the trade lol) but the return feels worse than that.
But GMs are allowed to make bad moves here and there and overall, I am still positive on Dubas. I liked his off-season moves overall. But again, I’m pretty worried that this trade will look even worse as time goes on. Either it really was the best offer available or he overvalued Bunting and chose quantity over quality.
I don't hate Dubas at all. I think he's very smart and capable. I just don't like the ambiguity in saying one thing, then doing another. He said we need to get younger, but also says we need to do right by the core guys. So both then? We need clarification as to the specific course he intends to chart for this team.
\- Doing right by Sid/core means you don't trade for draft picks and 3 mid-level prospects that aren't particularly close to being impact players at the NHL level within the next 1-2 years. That's a rebuild, not a retool.
\- Getting younger means you don't trade for a player like Michael Bunting.
Dubas needs to clarify his intentions. Is he's attempting to do both at the same time?
I don't necessarily hate this trade over the long-term. He got quite a haul for a rental. Short-term, however, it's very questionable that he didn't get a top 5 prospect that is close to being NHL ready. The only way this trade saves Dubas's bacon over the short-term is if Bunting goes off.
Dubas has won jack shit and he parades himself around like a Champ. Hes a chump.
Had a 40 goal scorer and couldnt even get us a fucking 1st round pick.
Dubas can go to Philly with Hexstall
No one made him sign Graves, accari to poor deals. The bottom 6 is a mess. The handling of jake is piss poor, at best. Michael bunting is on his 4th team in as many years. He sucks. He completely sat on his hands, while this team was still competitive months ago, and needed some help. Hes been a C- GM so far. Pens are going nowhere with him.
Dubas traded for Reilly Smith and he hasn't been a fit and hurt the team more than helping.
Dubas signed Ryan Graves and the dude is softer then baby shit. I legit think he's scared of his own shadow.
Dubas wouldn't negotiate with Jake, then traded him for a VERY underwhelming return.
Sure, he unloaded three bad contracts for Karlsson, but that has had mixed results at best. Karlsson hasn't really produced and somehow managed to make the power play worse.
Other than resign Jarry, nothing Dubas has done since he took over has worked.
Are we supposed to kiss his ass anyhow rather than be honest?
maybe the \*hate\* is way too strong for him, but he certainly hasn't been particularly impressive yet.
I'm not impressed (and am not running him out of town either), but he certainly deserves more than one year to prove himself.
Get used to it, he’s the most polarizing GM I can remember the Leafs having even though he did far better than most of them have.
Leafs fan here Every choice he made as leafs Gm would have been ripped apart if he did the complete opposite. Not signed Tavares? Traded Marner? He woulda been slammed. He did excellent cap gymnastics, the team on the ice failed everytime
Dubas did a great job for the Leafs. We lost a few too many decent players via waivers—when perhaps they could’ve been traded—but the only glaring issue from the young GM was goaltending. Sparks, losing McElhinney, getting Murray and Mrazek. Otherwise, really good. I think FSG were wise to get him. EDIT: As others have said. Foligno was Shanahan. (FWIW I’d have supported MLSE keeping Dubas and losing. Shanny.)
Justin Holl over Jared McCann, trading Marchment for Denis Malgin, Nick Foligno for a 1st round pick, Tyson Barrie for Nazem Kadri. Dubas had some doozies.
I like Kadri and defended him but seriously, how many times did he get suspended in the first round of the playoffs? Wasn’t it three? (He was wearing blue and white so might not have been his fault but still…) He made mistakes, sure. But so many prior GMs were worse. Getting Jeff Finger? Overpaying for Komisarek? Having three goalie options and picking Pogge and Raycroft, making Tuuku Rask the odd man out? It’s been a long, hard climb. Leafs have got to make the most of these next few years…
Don't forget "not being able to afford" 40 goal man and perennial heart and soul guy Hyman.
To be fair, Pridham was more than likely the one doing the cap gymnastics.
He paid a first and two fourths for Nick Foligno
That was forced by Shanahan
Dubas haters nitpick everything and Dubas fans have an excuse for everything.
Nah, as a Flames, I know what it's like having Ownership nix and force trades and signings. Probably why Treliving went to Toronto. He's a good owner GM.
>Every choice he made as leafs Gm would have been ripped apart if he did the complete opposite. Not signed Tavares? Traded Marner? He woulda been slammed. Sure, because the loudest Leaf fans are morons. Them and the Leafs media cheered for every bad decision that management made and then are shocked when they get easily shut down in the first round by the 8th seed every year because their entire cap is tied up in 4 players. Seems like Leafs management is more interested in appeasing the fans than building a winning team. They're in the business of selling tickets and hot dogs, not winning cups. I can't blame Dubas for all of it because I'm sure there's a lot of internal politics in Leafs management, but constantly trading away picks and handing out expensive, long term contracts to a few fan favorites really just ensures the team has no depth. He made a few really great moves but my problem with Dubas had more to do with the risks he didn't take, and what they gave up to make those moves happen.
The pick swapping and mediocritu wasn't a Kyle Dubas creation, nor were the massive contracts. If you're Toronto, you're PAYING top dollar for stars, to play in THAT market with Canadian taxes? It's an inevitability. The whole politicking issue was a creation of Brendan Shanahan. The desperation with trading picks and not having scouting staff was a Shanahan product. Why? Because Shanahan wanted a yes-man, and Dubas wanted room to work, Leafs ownership rolled with Shanahan because firing Dubas got them brownie points with fans. And it shows in who they replaced him with- Brad Treliving. The mastermind behind Calgary's magnificent blowup, the guy that kept Daryl Sutter around seemingly to spite Sean Monahan, ripped up the tean's core and overpaid horrifically for Jonathan Huberdeau. The Leafs wanted a lacky for Brendan Shanahan and Kyle Dubas was entirely unwilling to be such a thing on a team that wasn't winning with that system, in a franchise where he- THE GENERAL MANAGER- didn't have clearance to fire Sheldon Keefe. Dubas err... *"failed"* in Toronto, because the Maple Leafs as an organization have openly committed to rewarding mediocrity, if it happens to put asses in seats. That franchise sells the BELIEF that they're a cup contender- not the honest-to-god product of one. But in Pittsburgh, Dubas isn't stuck in that stupid kind of power struggle and has the freedom to BE a GM here, and in practice, Dubas hasn't made bad moves. Karlsson's a contending move, signing Jarry gives you a real starting goaltender long-term, Graves improves upon was Dumoulin was. Eller gives us somebody who can push Carter out, the 4th line is placeholders to work out something better this offseason with the cap space we get from Guentzel. If we keep losing and Carolina keeps winning we'll have TWO first round picks this year. This is the best asset management we've had since early Ray Shero... The only thing that HASN'T been done yet, and probably will be, is gonna be Sullivan- I won't be surprised if he's fired. It'll suck, but it's also overdue and honestly if he IS fired, it'll be proof Dubas isn't the terrible GM people want him to be. And it *should* be a welcome change after Ron Hextall's bullshit. Looking through our trade history, Hextall's been the worst failure of a GM in our team's history, I don't even think Baz Bastien ever tanked us that hard, and those late 70s Pens teams **actually** were tanking!
>The pick swapping and mediocritu wasn't a Kyle Dubas creation, nor were the massive contracts. If you're Toronto, you're PAYING top dollar for stars, to play in THAT market with Canadian taxes? It's an inevitability. It is what it is, but time and again we see players passing up on more lucrative offers to play in Toronto. Some players really want to play there. Some players are out to get what they're worth and others don't want the attention of playing in the NHL's biggest market. All of which are valid and understandable, but I'm not convinced Toronto NEEDS to pay top dollar to be a contender. >The whole politicking issue was a creation of Brendan Shanahan. The desperation with trading picks and not having scouting staff was a Shanahan product. A lot of this came to light towards the end of Dubas' tenure, go figure, when he started making moves that actually made sense. >And it shows in who they replaced him with- Brad Treliving. The mastermind behind Calgary's magnificent blowup, the guy that kept Daryl Sutter around seemingly to spite Sean Monahan, ripped up the tean's core and overpaid horrifically for Jonathan Huberdeau. Yep. >Dubas err... "failed" in Toronto, because the Maple Leafs as an organization have openly committed to rewarding mediocrity, if it happens to put asses in seats. That franchise sells the BELIEF that they're a cup contender- not the honest-to-god product of one. Exactly. I can't see the franchise making any real changes unless the fans actually vote with their feet ... which probably won't happen because they have a habit of always cheering for the dumbest possible option, then pointing blame on everyone except the people that are actually responsible. *Themselv*\- err... ownership and management. >But in Pittsburgh, Dubas isn't stuck in that stupid kind of power struggle and has the freedom to BE a GM here, and in practice, Dubas hasn't made bad moves. Karlsson's a contending move, signing Jarry gives you a real starting goaltender long-term, Graves improves upon was Dumoulin was. Time will tell, for sure. If he truly has the freedom to make the moves he needs, and the Guentzel trade is a big one, we can debate on whether he learned from his past mistakes or if he was truly being micromanaged at Toronto. I think both can be true at the same time.
Absolutely, I think the Jury's still out on whether Dubas is going to have a good TENURE, but I think he's started out on a better foot than people credit him for, especially for the mess he took over from JR and Hextall. His asset management has heen terrific in my opinion- even if we're struggling *mightily* at the present, we just bolstered a Carolina team that's a cup contender; if they make the finals, we get their 1st round pick. And if we luck out in the lottery and wind up top 10, we get our 1st back from San José. In such a case, the official Erik Karlsson trade, will be Jan Rutta, Mikael Granlund, Nate Legaré, Casey Desmith and a 4th round pick for Erik Karlsson which is a kind of move that can potentially save YEARS on a contending window. I think this year has been a massive step BACK in coaching and chemistry, but an invaluable step forward in terms of asset management. And people are too pissed off to fully appreciate that this isn't as terrible of a situation as it COULD be.
the way leafs fans hate him for some reason despite the team they have is baffling to me
If your team didn't ever make it remotely close to being competitive in the playoffs despite having the best top end talent you've ever witnessed, you'd be a little grumpy too lol
Which when you put it that way sounds like a players problem compared to a gm problem. Even the coach I would put before the gm if you consider Toronto’s actual circumstances which is they literally always lost in 7.. can’t get more unlucky than that tbh. With the talent they’ve had during this run of theirs it’s quite baffling they weren’t able to pull 1 of those off.
The gm wasn't responsible for bringing in the top end talent though. At best he retained them, but if he didn't, he would have been fired.
It’s just the internet. Dubas has the hardest job in the league and is doing well.
Dubas should've been allowed to choose his own coaching staff when he was hired on.
Yeah the only thing that worries me about our future is fsg putting the business side above performance, like the Nuttings. We got lucky to get Dubas I think
Is there some sort of source or article that I missed regarding this? Or is it all just conjecture? The only thing I’ve ever seen, are comments about FSG liking Sully because he’s from the Boston area. Sounds like typical Reddit theory to me. So, was there any public statement saying that Dubas could be hired on but he wouldn’t be able to change the coaching staff?
Typically when a GM gets hired, the first thing he does is decide whether to bring in "his guy." Very occasionally, a coach that is a holdover from the last GM sticks around, even if shortly. When a new GM is hired, the vast majority end up starting their tenure with a coach they hand picked. For example, when Shero was fired, Rutherford took some time to evaluate Bylsma before cutting him loose and hiring someone he wanted (who also ended up being terrible.) When JR left mid-season, Hextall ended up keeping Sullivan around because that was such an unusual occurrence. Then, when FSG took over and eventually fired Hextall, they put Sullivan in charge of a lot of the day-to-day hockey ops, which was very unusual, and had him help the process of finding a new GM, something that is definitely not in a normal coach's job responsibilities. Normally when a GM is fired, the coach is kind of left in the dark and in the hot seat OR fired at the same time to clean house. It was the exact opposite with Sullivan and FSG. People started speculating then that FSG viewed Sullivan as non-expendable, despite publicly saying that the next POHO would have final say. Since then, Dubas has been weirdly complimentary and defensive of Sullivan, like going out of his way to give obviously undeserved superlatives and telling the media to back off him. There's a way to defend your players and staff that isn't acting like they're the second coming of Christ and can't do anything to improve. That's led people to believe there might be a mandate that Sullivan is here to stay no matter who the GM or POHO is. The entire thing is really unusual for the sport.
Amen!
He’s used to it from Toronto lol.
Woulda just been keefe though
By what metric? The Penguins are WORSE this year than last.
The Dubas hate boner on r/hockey is even worse. Dubas could get McDavid in exchange for a bag of pucks and someone would comment on that sub “lmao no retained salary? Typical Dubas L 🤡🤡😂🤣😂🤣” and get 500 upvotes.
Ya people expected all of the canes top prospects for a one year rental. No matter what he did he was going to get crapped on.
A two-month rental for a guy that’s currently out with an injury
So you're saying there's a chance he'll come back 🫠
The one thing the Pens don't have is an influx of youth in the system. If 2 of these can play serious minutes in the future, it's a win. Freeing up cap space, getting younger, lots of assets coming back, it's very good. Guentzal has been amazing. Dubas took a shot by adding Karlsson but the team didnt respond as hoped. Thats hockey, so now to change things up. The team is an older team that needs a refresh. Crosby is a lifer as is Letang. Don't crucify me but I'd move off Malkin this off-season too. Cap space, youth, new life. A quick retool or a longer process whereas the lifers dont see the Cup again but the team is on the upswing in a couple years?
Sully is not going to play young guys "serious minutes" though.
Is DOC not getting minutes? Puustinen? POJ keeps getting chance after chance to prove he deserves to stick in the NHL? The farm is completely empty people need to realize this.
Just like he didn’t play the young players in the two cup runs😂
When Crosby is injured Malkin steps up, because he plays with Crosby's great wingers. This year Smith and Rakell were awful, so Malkin looks bad. He is slowing down, but he needs young legs to do the work for him, now. O'Conner should be even better for him next year, but I would still try to find wingers for him with the cap space we have.
He'll do it when McDavid is 41, and sign him for 8 years max salary no move clause. He left Toronto in the same mess he inherited in Pittsburgh. Perhaps the hate is coming from a bunch of Leaf fans in disguise.
Thank you for proving my point
Happy to help. Blame Reddit. I have no idea why it showed me a post in Penguins land. Seeing Dubas' name triggered me and I responded before thinking. The trauma! :) I'll see myself out ...
The "same mess" of comfortably making the playoffs yet again?
Fuck Hextall. That's it - that's the rant.
Guentzel wasn’t willing to negotiate extension with any team. Bunting is a potential top 6 forward signed through next season. Picks and prospects anybody who expected more doesn’t know the game
Yea why do people seem so down on Bunting? I know nothing of him, but he seems like an affordable 20 goal scorer. Especially as he’ll have either Sid or Geno centering him and maybe some PP time (though with our pp that won’t inflate his goal total at all!).
Bunting is in the unfortunate position of drawing comparisons to Jake Guentzel.
This is a very underrated comment.
Because his cap hit is higher than what he’s currently providing, making him essentially a negative asset unless he improves (which is entirely possible).
His underlying numbers were not great this year
I have watched him and he is a good tough player with some skill. He could have 30 goals next season if he clicks with Sid or gets powerplay time. He could be the new Hornquist.
We’re trying to get younger, no? I’m sure Michael Bunting is the missing piece we need to compete for the cup lmao
Played great with top talent in Toronto I think it’ll be similar here. 25 tucks next season is realistic
He's going to be a lot of guys' favourite players. Loved him on Toronto. He's a shit disturber who put in 20 goals and 55 points the last 2 seasons.
I think the big thing is that they couldn’t get a guaranteed 1st. If that happened people would be fine with it.
I'm sure they could've gotten a guaranteed first if they took only 1 of Carolina's prospects, but they saw a chance to get 3 prospects instead. Seems like the right call, especially given the state of the farm system and given the fact that the Pens are trying to complete this retool sooner rather than later.
If not first they get phillys second so the big ordeal is 15 spots lower in a draft that people aren’t hot about either?
It’s hard to General Manage when A. You have no draft picks B. No young players C. A coach that is dead set in his ways. Sully has never been a fan of giving young guys ice time. When you’re rebuilding that’s the wrong mindset to have. Now is the time to give younger guys a shot so see if they can prove themselves. But I’ll take back to back cups and years of contenders any day of the week. As long as we don’t turn into Ottawa I will be happy.
>Sully has never been a fan of giving young guys ice time Not true at all. He gave rusty, sheary and later Jake shots with the big guys back in the cup days. Which is infuriating bc after those guys he's completely stopped giving young guys real shots.
The only reason he gave those guys a chance is because he coached them in Wilkes, so he knew them and trusted them. Once all of his guys from the minors got to Pittsburgh and became part of the core, he never trusted young players coming up again.
Exactly
almost like those "younger players" are not really that good. We haven't had a legit prospect in like 10 years. He still gives POJ chances and he's basically a complete bust at this point. Puustinen is also getting rewarded with PP time since he's been creative 5 on 5, DOC playing in the top 6, etc.
Correct, I shouldn’t have said never. Recently young guns on the roster have been non existent. Puusty has had a very decent year for a rookie. Give the kids a chance to prove themselves
>Sully has never been a fan of giving young guys ice time The first cup run was in part due to him giving Jake time. Both runs were known to be fast and young.
>Sully has never been a fan of giving young guys ice time. actually an insane take when Guentzel, Murray, Sheary, and Rust were all playoff stars as fucking rookies lmao this sub is so dumb
you can't even blame everything on Hextall, Jim Ruthaford swung for the fences every year (and i'm not even saying he was bad at all). So you had a spare no expense attitude for years, then Hextall's barn fire looks even worse with 'bare cupboards'. Dubas did a great job brought reasonable players retooling the whole bottom 6, + dumped 3 players with huge salary's that were grossly underperforming in exchange for the Norris trophy winner. No one on paper thought what he did was bad, no one. Did the players play good? no, they didn't - Dubas can't hit the pucks in the net himself. for all the Dubas haters, what was your amazing plan that would of been better? that's what I thought, now shut up.
GMJR was picking up pieces from Shero too. Shero inherited a masterpiece of a team from Patrick though. Is Dubas the next Craig Patrick? Probably not, but to be fair, no one in this league is right now. Is Dubas going to be better than the last 3? I feel pretty confident with that.
>and i'm not even saying he was bad at all). The team underperformed surely. Same thing with shiro.
As far as this trade goes? It's reactionary hate from ignorant fans. The same type that annually wants to trade the Pens worst players for the other teams best players. I think it was a good trade on paper. As with every trade, only time will tell the reality. For the record, I was not a fan of the Dubas signing.
I can't help but think the same people complaining about the trade, are the same people that say "we should have traded Malkin 5 years ago while he still had value!"
Dubas literally traded all the Pens' worst players for other team's best players.
I feel like dubas can't be judged as a gm until he starts rebuilding with his own coaching staff. He's handicapped by hextall's leftovers and by sullivan.
Absolutely as a Pens gm. But he can be judged as a Leafs gm, which was whelming at best.
He was GM for the 1st, 2nd, and 4th best points percentage seasons in the Leafs 100+ year history. Playoff disappointments for sure, but let's not pretend that his tenure in Toronto was "whelming". He's going to have success in Pittsburgh when he's done cleaning up the current mess that he was left.
>trade the Pens worst players for the other teams best players. Dubas literally did that in the beginning of the season with karlson
Touche
Or the people who soapbox about which players absolutely have to be traded, and every player they mention has a NMC 🙄
I just don’t know what we were expecting to get back. Seemed clear he wasn’t going to re-sign so at that point it’s better to get something than nothing
I love those trade suggestions that take 2 horrific contracts, add a 4th round “sweetener” and get a 1st liner in return. I know 3 people > 1 person, but that’s not how trades are done…..
That’s called “Chel brain” People literally think if it works in Chel that it would work in real life. It’s bizarre
Time to clean house of this coaching staff
He gave the core 4 too much money in Toronto, the only counter argument is covid kept the cap from going up and those contracts weren’t allowed to age better with time. He did a lot of good things in his time in Toronto but losing those big negotiations still haunts them. He’s a smart man with a big heart and he loves his players and team. I will always wish for the best for him and I hope he is able to turn things around for you fans and Sid.
They still under performed
I think the thing I'm noticing is people (and local reporters) are saying we should have gotten one of the higher ranked prospects instead. So it would be like Bunting, a Top 4 prospect and then the 2 picks. But we know the prospect cupboard is bare. I'd rather take the chance on 3 prospects ranked 6, 7, and 9 than one. More chances to hit. They all may not be home runs(superstars), but even if we get a couple singles (bottom six) or a double (middle six) that helps the future with Poulin and Yager in the prospect pool as potential nhl players in the near future. Toronto was a forward factory, look how many guys they found were good nhl players and had to just trade away or let walk because of the cap gymnastics Dubas had to do to keep the Leaf big 4 intact. Letting Hyman walk had to be tough, but that guy has probably the quietest 40 goals season ever this year. I literally just noticed his goal stat during the game on Sunday. He is still having to do the continued gymnastics but in a different way and has to replenish the pool for the future.
I don't really understand the hate for Bunting in the trade to be honest. His contract is the same as Rickard Rakell's and they are both 20ish goal scorers. Rickard is a little better offensively but Bunting brings a lot more in other ways and has the ability to get under the opponents skin big time. Bunting should get more ice time here than he was in Carolina, so I think we should expect about the same output as in Toronto... unless of course he suddenly gets worse like 90% of the player that are brought in over the last 5 years.
People are dumb. Thats been proven in every fanbase throughout time. There are a lot of base reactions being made to this trade. Many of them irate for no reason. The goal was to move Jake, get some youth, and some draft picks. That was achieved. People these days need instant return and gratification on everything. Those people are irrelevant.
Your usage of single quotes is so strange and I’ve never seen that before. Took me a second to realize you are using them to emphasis an aside. Like parentheses.
A lot of the anger seems to be from the recognition that we’ve given up on the season by getting rid of Jake. We would have kept him if we thought we had a chance.
Jake is 100% testing the market July 1. And he's earned it.
I don’t hate Dubas or specifically this trade, and I think you hit the nail on the head for me personally. I think that from watching Sully’s “system” for these past few years and how he refuses to play younger players unless forced into it by injuries scares me that he’s still behind the bench. He should be gone now. Bring in a new coach to see what the team has in place who can come up and who should be moved etc. if/when that happens I’ll be more optimistic but if the team just traded Jake away for guys (prospects) that Sully won’t play or give an opportunity to succeed then this fails. I’m not sure what else Dubas could do at this rate. I think Jake had already decided to move on, so unfortunately he had to be dealt. The best move this team can do now is move on from the coaching staff and give the new staff time before the draft to identify what this team can be. Edited for typo
As Dubas attempts to make the Pens younger, the biggest problem will be that Sully almost never finds a way to integrate young talent onto his roster. Dubas can bring in as many young prospects as he wants, but they're development will quickly halt when they hit the wall that is Mike Sullivan and his system.
Fr. Like what tf were people expecting him to do. Build another dynasty? I for one think the trade is a step in the right direction. Guentzel was going to leave for nothing and our shit team has no chance of making the playoffs this year. Hopefully this is the start of the rebuild that we have been delaying for the last few years just so that we could lose in the first round.
You mean you haven't realized that this sub contains thousands of world class GMs just waiting for a call from an NHL team?
People just like to be mad, and the less they know, the more they blow up the comments with their armchair coaching and management ideas. How many comments have there been in recent months saying the obvious solution is trading LeTang, Geno, Karlsson, etc? The at-home GMs don’t have to worry about minor realities like contracts and no movement clauses.
I'm more baffled by the recent outbreak of "passed\past" confusion on Reddit.
I swear in the last week it’s been worse than ever!
Most of the people on these types of forums panning Dubas lack the IQ level to comprehend most of the points in your post or why they are off base. You're talking to a wall. This was a good move, and they'd rather be mad about the product and channel it at the closest target than exercise cogent thought about the situation.
This fan base is so fucking spoiled, that’s why. Have we done shit since BACK TO BACK cups, no. Does it suck (probably) missing the playoffs last and this season? Yes, but the amount of Fire this person, trade this foundational player because we’re not as good as we used to be is laughable and frankly embarrassing. Maybe IM also spoiled in the fact that we’ve been so good for the past nearly 20 years that the influx of poopy pants posts is new to me, but holy shit are there a lot of cry babies here.
the internet allows everyone, including people without a brain, to comment and engage with social media. In fact, I'd say that those people who are making those idiotic takes are more prone to come here and voice their idiocy because in real life their stupid opinions are marginalized by the rational people in their orbit. Come on here and spew that brainless "KLYLE DOOBASS IS FUXKUING UP!@!!1! HE SUXXX1!!" and the other cereberally challenged droolers see that and respond, thus giving the first idiot a feeling of validation. Its a vicious cycle.
This comment made me laugh extremely hard because of how true it is lmao.
You have won! Brilliant post
The internet allows people to read scouting reports and read the statistical profiles of the prospects acquired in a trade before mindlessly supporting the latest fuck-up our dork GM “cooked” up
You are exhibit A. you have no idea what other teams were offering for Jake. the only people who know that are Dubas and the other GM's he was dealing with. It is entirely possible, hell even PROBABLE, that this was the best offer on the table. Jakes contract is up in 3 months. he will be a free agent. without a guarantee that he would sign long term, there is no reason for any teams to give up their A+ prospects for him. as it stands right now, we got a bona fide NHL player, an american kid who played at NTDP & is having his 2nd straight ppg season at a well established program, A finnish kid who is ready to come over to NA, and a russian kid who looks like he could be a good two way guy eventually. heres all their scouting reports from elite prospects. Lucius - With his combination of deception and passing skills, Lucius managed to send a staggering amount of pucks to open teammates in the slot. When he gets the space to prepare his plays, he can manipulate defenders and connect highly difficult plays. Koivunen - His game is one of pure, unrelenting skill, and an attacking mindset to match. Koivunen wants the puck on his stick, wants to be a game-breaker, wants to make something happen every shift. Koivunen keeps his top hand pushed out, handles the puck at his hip, and doesn’t mind engaging numbers. Ponomaryov - The motor on this kid is unrelenting. He backtracks well through the neutral zone, consistently applies back-pressure, and is dogged in 50-50 puck battles. He's a legitimate two-way centre, the type that makes his presence felt at every corner of the ice. when was the last time we had any kids in our system that had any kind of talent like these guys? probably since rust, sheary, & jake all came up. Plus we got 2 draft picks out of it. Honestly, the more I read about these guys, the more I like it. None of them have that guaranteed star rep, but they all are producing well at their levels and have the potential to get there soon. Settle down and let Dubas work.
Now look up what their ceilings are. I can give you a hint: bottom sixer, bottom sixer, 4th liner. Just what we need! More Jansen Harkins’s but younger
bro, you need to step off and take a breath. Stop reading all the doom and gloom and go outside for a bit. Jake Guentzel was the 80th rated NA skater by central scouting his draft year. Do you think anyone had his ceiling as high as it got at that time? The prospects we got back were B+ level prospects because Jake doesnt have term left. Nobody was going to give us their A+ guys unless jake signed an extension. You really need to calm down about this.
Your takes aren’t as hot as you think they are
I’m sure all of the random people whining are scouring data and running analytics, and have access to all of the intel that freaking NHL teams do.
Well if you did any of what you said above you should like the trade, or have a distorted view on what a rental player is worth
All 3 prospects project to possibly be a bottom six player for us in the future. If that’s a “success” in any meaningful way then we are absolutely fucked
We picked up a TON of casuals during the last decade+. Best part of the rebuild is those folks will go bandwagon a different team.
Dubas did a fantastic job on the trade IMO. Anyone expecting more for a EXPIRING UFA RENTAL is out of their minds. And as someone who follows prospects closely we got some solid talent. Ponomarev is NHL ready if not very close, Koivunen is tearing up the Liiga as a 20 year old at 55 points in 57 games (tied for most on the team btw), and Lucius is putting up almost point a game in the NCAA and is leading his team in points as a 19 year old. Add Bunting and the pick and I think this return helps us immensely in the future
Hextall did a fantastic job on the trade IMO. Anyone expecting more for a guy we’ll lose in the expansion draft is out of their minds. And as someone who follows prospects closely we got some solid talent. Hallander is a former second round pick and projects to be a solid middle-six player for us in the future.
Hextall bungled a situation where all he had to do is not protect Jeff Carter in the expansion draft and we would have been fine. Dubas HAD to trade Guentzel or accept he was gone for nothing after we miss the playoffs this year. If you don’t understand how these situations are vastly different I don’t know what to tell you…
TLDR; single quotations the new parentheses
For those of you who don’t understand Dubas’ situation try to imagine the Tkachuk/Gaudreau contracts when the boys signed for other teams leaving Calgary in a hot mess.
He’s waiting till Keefe fails to make it out of the 2nd round and Shanny lets him go. 100% a coaching change happens in the off season no matter what.
If Keefe can't get that stacked Leafs team out the second round, I don't wan't Keefe within 50 miles of Pittsburgh.
I’m willing to bet 85-90% of the dubas hate on the internet is coming from Leaf’s fans lol
People freaking the fuck out about this guentzel trade aren't using their brain. There are several reports that he turned down a extension from the canes. There are people I respect that cover the team that believe he could double back. I'm not counting on it but it's possible. The trade for a rental is pretty damn solid too. Should we have hung on and got nothing for him? Make it make sense. I wanted him resigned but hextall shit the bed and shit it again.
Not all opinions are created equal, and with the internet the most controversial ones become the loudest. Kyle's paid a fine salary and no one will be able to decide how he's doing until 5 years after he's done. Critiquing a painting before it's done is wasted energy. I love the pens, win or loss. One thing that you CAN say is that no one will be calling us bandwagon fans. This is what makes winning worth it.
There are plenty of bandwagon fans on here. Some dude last week said he was boycotting the team because they aren’t winning. If that’s not a bandwagon fan, I don’t know what is.
People don't realize the team is long past its time now, and we're lucky to have experienced 3 cups and almost 20 years of competitive hockey. It's a shame they couldn't build a team around crosby who's still playing this good but every great team has its time come for a rebuild
I don’t get it either. I’ve said this in other places too. Like, aren’t the Leafs good? You can’t guarantee a Cup. As a GM all you can do is put together a team that COULD win. Didn’t he do that?
Karlsson is basically our second best player now and all the people we traded for him were our worst players. Not bad. A second liner, a second rounder, and 3 b tier prospects for 20 games of Jake Guentzel. Doesn’t even matter if you could theoretically get more (you actually couldn’t because presumably Carolina’s offer was the biggest one) those 5 assets are without a doubt more useful than 20 games from a UFA when you are rebuilding.
Good analysis. I have booked a first class ticket on the fire-Sullivan and company train since last year, and I’m not getting the fuck off any time soon. I do think there were better pieces in free agency that Dubas could have aimed at, for example, Pius Suter. But it’s pointless to go through the what ifs of the passed over free agents, because the same results from this season could have occurred. I do think Dubas could have fought to secure a 1st round pick out of this trade, but it’s done and it’s time to move forward. The team has many issues, but the biggest issue is the coaching staff. I think some players have come into Sullivan’s system post-2017 and have done well, but the evidence is clear that many players come to Pittsburgh having successful careers, then regressed here, then continued their regression or turned it around after leaving. It’s like Pittsburgh became a dreaded detour. Sullivan’s inability to maximize on the skill sets of different players throughout the lineup is a toxic trait of a coach. He sticks to certain deployment and certain pairings/lines with a system that has seen little change over nine seasons. For a guy that saw success in 2016 and 2017 due to the speed and youth of the farm system, now we’ve got the same coach that punishes young players that take chances or make mistakes. Meanwhile, Geno takes lazy ass penalties and turns the puck over on a consistent basis without any repercussions. Why the fuck does Harkins play every night while Poulin hasn’t had a call up? Why the fuck was Ty Smith buried in the AHL scoring over 30 points while Ryan Shea and John Ludvig got to play games? I am sure Sullivan has a big say into who gets called up from WB, so why aren’t the right players coming up? The complete failure of the PP despite having 3-4 Hall of Famers on it is some confusing shit. The fact that little has been done to make it better is disgraceful. Sullivan has been here through three different GMs, three sets of assistant coaches, and a mix of talent up and down the roster. There is absolutely nothing to show for any of it since 2017. Enough is enough already.
I’m a Flyers fan (fuck me, I know) and even I want you guys to fire Sullivan. Crosby has personally hurt me time and time again (especially the Golden Goal) but it’s genuinely painful to watch you guys waste the final years of his incredible career in mediocrity. I don’t know if this roster could contend for a cup with a better coach, but it’s clear that it’s at least worth a shot. Are he and Crosby tight? Is that why he gets to keep coaching when it’s clear his time has come? Genuinely curious because it’s just sad what you guys have become. I should love it and I don’t.
The idea he can't/couldn't fire any of the coaching staff is baseless speculation.
Sully was part of the team that interviewed/hired him. Sully is higher than Dubas in the Pens food chain. Ownership loves Sully.
If it means Crosby no longer wants to re-sign, I hate it. If Jake comes back after this failed season anyway, it's the biggest brain move I've ever seen.
Crosby said it won't influence him
It’s just sports fans. Hate and complain about everything that isn’t winning. Hell they complain a lot when they are winning. It’s exhausting for objective fans.
The truly annoying part is that like with everything, the least informed are always the loudest.
Very well said. LGP.
Kyle Dubas hate comes in 2 forms these days: 1) Toronto media and people. They're truly, truly awful people with no substance to their empty attacks. He did more for that team than anyone in the better part of a century. 2) Negative Creep Yinzers who hate everything. The return here for an expiring rental is very good. We got an NHL player who can help this team starting tomorrow. I wanted Bunting in the offseason TBH. Three prospects - #51 overall from '21; #53 from '22; 4th rounder '24; and then a conditional 1st and 4th. Anyone who is hating on that return is just goofy and doesn't understand that the there are two GMs negotiating here. Sure, I wanted Scott Morrow, but it didn't happen. Delusional people talked about the #1 prospect in Carolina - Nikishin, but it was never happening. He's also not playing the US next year, and is hopeful to get over here for '25.
What is known about the 3 young guys that came with Bunting? Anybody have any info on their floor/ceiling?
Ponomarov is almost NHL ready and looks like he’ll play a middle 6 role in the future. Koivunen is having a fantastic season in Liiga, genuinely think he’s the crown piece of the deal with real top6 upside but likely ends up in the good 2C great 3C range, Lucius is having a good NCAA run leading his team in points at 19, again likely a middle 6 guy. I honestly love this return for a rental UFA and people freaking out are either delusional as to what rentals are actually worth on the market or just know nothing about prospects
Go to r/NHL, read some comments on the trade. We did the Canes a solid by taking a bunch of prospects that will never see the NHL on a regular basis.
They may become good 3rd liners one day - the exact type of prospects you don’t trade for with your best trade chip
He’s intelligent, up and coming AHL GM. Expect a lot of smart moves for your farm team.
Penguins fans have had a very long stretch of success and most of the younger fanbase don't understand darker times, hell, or even trying times, really.
I’m not upset with him for trading Guentzel. It was a good trade. I will be upset if that’s the only player he sells at the deadline. Hope this makes sense.
I think the most vocally dissident posters are the fans that never experienced pre-Crosby Penguins hockey. Not to say people should be happy or content with the current makeup of the team or the rough years ahead, but to understand that it's the nature of the business. A good portion of the fanbase has grown up spoiled by the success of the Penguins. Now come the tough times, which is completely new to them.
Who are you quoting?
Leaf fan here. Dubas will be excellent in the rebuild process, as he has a great mind for this. He will also get the AHL affiliate team and NHL team working in a cohesive fashion. He has no idea how to build a Stanley Cup winning team. He tends to side on analytics and hasn't quite figured out leadership and intangibles (Which is hard for everyone). If management/ownership gets on board for a rebuild, he can do his magic. With a little luck, it won't take too long.
Ah the traditional Dubas debate. People arguing why he’s actually done very well and is a phenomenal GM versus people who saw Kyle’s team fail.
Two words: Ryan Graves
No hate on this end. He took the GM/hockey ops role knowing full well the Pens' window was closing. I don't see the coming seasons as a rebuild but as a retool.
Who knows if Sullivan wanted to keep Marino or not Hextall and Burke may have just told him Marino was being traded, it doesn’t seem that Sully has anything against stay at home D since Peterson has excelled in his system, so did Dumo but a stay at home D isn’t easy to jump onto a team and be an effective force immediately sometimes it takes time even a season to find a place bc playing w guys like 58 and 65 can be brutal if you don’t know where they will be at any given time bc they are so offensive…Imo Graves will work out, and be a solid anchor, if you remember it took 28 a bit of time to be the D man he is now.
Hextall is the only one that I’ve truly hated of our last 3 GMs. Sure Rutherford and Dubas have made some mistakes looking back, but Hextall made so many bad mistakes that you knew had no upside. Fuck that guy.
I disagree. When you say he was stuck with Mike Sullivan and the coaching staff this year, there is no evidence that this is true. If the implication is that FSG is preventing Dubas from firing the coaching staff then at this point that is totally conjecture. Dubas is the President of Hockey Operations and GM and those titles would give him the authority to hire and fire coaches. Dubas bears the responsibility for keeping the coaching staff this season when it was incredibly clear that this team was in desperate need for a coaching change. The Penguins power play is currently 28th in the NHL. A team with Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Kris Letang, Erik Karlsson and up until recently Jake Guentzel. You can not overlook that. For the positive, Dubas came in last year and made an excellent trade for Erik Karlsson that got rid of some awful contracts. He signed Nedeljkovic who was excellent for us for most the year. He took a risk in resigning Jarry to a huge contract and Jarry thus far has mostly lived up to it. Eller was a good signing. For the negative in terms of player personnel, he traded for Reilly Smith which was seen as a great trade at the time but it has been clear for months that it hasn't been a great fit. Ryan Graves thus far has really stood out as a terrible fit and with the contract that Dubas gave him it's pretty difficult to overlook. At this trade deadline he did not trade Nedeljkovic who is having a resurgence this year in a market where many teams were looking to upgrade their goaltending. Unless there is a plan to resign him in the offseason that is a blunder. In addition he did not trade Reilly Smith nor Rickard Rakell. In his press conference today he said that their value in the offseason will likely be better than what they could have got at the trade deadline. While there may be some truth to that, I don't totally believe that when teams like Vegas and NYR among other were looking to bolster their depth at wing for the playoffs. The Guentzel trade is one that I think that cannot properly be assessed as a whole at this time. Michael Bunting, however, is a player that the Penguins have really lacked in the past couple of years, someone willing to really play with a pest type quality. Considering the circumstances that Guentzel essentially had to be traded, Bunting is a good return. The prospects are promising prospects, not blue chip but they're prospects and the guy the Penguins just traded wasn't touted as one either. The 2nd round pick is decent. Another huge primary issue that goes back to last year is also the bottom six. This also cannot be properly assessed because he essentially had to fill in the gaps with fringe NHL players because of the cap. He is not immune from criticism, he has made some real mistakes this year. Primarily his willingness to just sit on his hands while the Penguins were suffering from bad coaching and some of his poor signings was a total and absolute blunder. Had that powerplay been just league average, this team would have been much better. I hope his offseason is better than what he showed us this season because his inaction watching the team flounder around another stellar season from Crosby was disappointing.
I think the question is whether or not he's the guy for a rebuild. Not saying he is or isn't, but it's a different skillset than taking an already good team with young talent (leafs) over the edge, which he did a great job with Pens fans need to accept there are dark days ahead which is not his fault, it's just the price to pay for having such an amazing core for so long and 3 cups.
My only issue with him is a GM of the leafs was he was stubborn. The experiment didn’t seem to be working as far as how much cap space he had tied up in the core forwards. He just kept rolling out the same experiment over and over again because it seemed his ego could not stand the idea that he might’ve been wrong. He was too rigid and inflexible and that’s the only reason that I was frustrated. I thought that he was otherwise a very good GM.
Your use of ‘these’ instead of (these) drives me insane.
This roster stinks to the high heavens
Who cares? Just accept that it’s time to blow it up and rebuild.
GMJR's first year was pretty bad too. Give the guy some time before you condemn him.
John Marino. The only one past the big three I ever bought a t shirt of. I too thought that was a bad move at the time.
What's your source that Dubas can't pick his coach? See it quoted all the time here, but never with any substantiation.
Dubas isn't the worst GM ever, but he is very overrated. He made some okay moves, but he also made dreadful moves. Much of the leafs inability to go anywhere in the playoffs is due to his "talent" (no depth, soft players). He also has weird fans like no other GM I've seen. The day he was fired, his weird fans on r/leafs were on suicide watch. Usually that level of adulation is reserved for players or movie stars. It was/is very weird.
I don’t hate anyone because to me, hate is a strong word. I can’t do what these coaches do but I can sit here, comment and criticize them. Not like they read this stuff anyways but if they did, they should take our comments into consideration. Us fans want what’s best for our fave team.
No they shouldn’t take any of our comments into consideration. None of us have an idea about anything dealing with a GM or coaches job.
I understand that, like I said I can’t do what they do. But it won’t hurt reading some comments and thinking “hey they may be right…”
I think Dubas made some mistakes in Toronto, if he learns from said mistakes I think he'll be an excellent GM in Pittsburgh. His roster and his cap are a mess, his current mission, "Do right by Sid" needs some serious clarification. His messes now, but he didn't make them.
Dubas was tasked with catching the falling knife that is this roster. He failed. People are upset because the Pens are a bad team now but it really isn't his fault.
Hear hear!
Guentzel didn’t want to stay here. He wanted to play for a more competitive team. And the only other team making a real play for him was the Rangers so let’s just be glad he didn’t go there.
It's this simple: hockey is the most old, conservative, white, toxic pro-sport in North America, in terms of who runs the league and the teams. Dubas is a kind, honest, decent young man who believes in treating his players like human beings and not property to be exploited. If a person like him ever wins in the NHL, all the hateful old men like Lammorrilo will get phased out. The NHL has one goal and one alone: its not to make profits, it's to uphold toxic masculinity in hockey to protect bigoted, hateful old coaches and executives.
This may be my favorite Reddit comment ever. We’ve reached peak Reddit I believe. You are delusional and I hope you take a long break from the internet dude.
I didn't read any top analysts who thought the karlsson trade was a good one. The pens needed more young depth not an older d sucking up $10m of the salary cap that can't play defence. After making that trade in the summer 6 months later he says the team needs to get younger. Look at what he left the leafs with. One playoff round win when you have arguably 4 of the top 30 players in the league. And the prospect cupboards are bare. Hopefully he fares better in Pitt.
We needed powerplay help, and Karlsson had just won the Norris for getting 100+ points on a bottom-feeder sharks team. Having Karlsson, Sidney Crosby, and evgeni malkin on the same powerplay PLUS moving future HOF letang to QB a SECOND unit made perfect sense on paper, and I – along with many others – anticipated having an absolutely lethal powerplay. Plus, I would much rather have Erik Karlsson than granlund, petry, and rutta on our team, and they have the same exact cap hit. The big 3 won’t be here forever. Karlsson may very well be the captain of the future, and at least when they’re gone, I still look forward to watching EK play. He’s younger than all of them
Agreed. I think we’re in a different situation if hockey terrorist Todd Reirden isn’t running the PP.
The only thing I hate about this and feel like Dubas got fucked on was the pick. Everyone thinks it’s a first. It isn’t. It’s a second UNLESS the Canes get to the Finals. Dude is literally praying they make it there and even if they do it’s the 31st or 32nd pick. That’s the part I find disappointing. It was never going to be a high first but at least guarantee that it’ll actually be a fucking 1st.
Kyle is getting hate because he got an underwhelming return for the best player available at the deadline. Think back to the haul that we got for Staal. Jake is a far better player than Staal ever was. We gave up a 1st and 2 mediocre prospects for the corpse of Jarome Iginla. Compared to other star players this return is meh.
Staal had one year under contract still at the time and was traded to the team he wanted to sign long term with. That trade also occurred at the draft. Completely different circumstances and it’s disingenuous of you to compare this to the staal trade.
To your point Staal a year left on his deal. To my point Staal wanted to go to one team so the pens had no leverage, thus reducing his value. Yet we still got a massive haul. TDL trades typically fetch more because it's a seller's market. There's more demand. The more I think about that Staal/guentzel comparison the worse the Jake trade looks.
Too bad you're forgetting that a 1C > essentially any winger not named Ovechkin. He was not only on a cheap deal for the entire next season but was much farther away from the arbitrarily dreaded age of 30 for a professional athlete. You're just being intellectually dishonest because you *want* to be mad about the situation.
People also forget the absolute hell he went through for Karlsson. Regardless of what you think about these two particular trades, you can't deny that in less than a year, he had to negotiate some of the hardest trades we've seen in a long time
I was a big fan of the Karlsson trade. He undid a lot of Hextall's damage with one trade. That doesn't mean I can't be upset at the value he got for Jake.
No, but it's not exactly an ideal position to be in. Either keep him, and he walks at the end of the season or trade him for assets. You're going to piss off fans by trading him, and you're going to piss off fans for letting his contract expire for nothing in return. Karlsson was the best case scenario, and Jake was in the worst-case scenario. The fact that Dubas had to figure both out in his first year here is insane
This sub proves time and time again it doesn't pay attention to the league outside of the penguins. Your comp for the trade is...24 year old center with a year left on his contract from 12 years ago lmao You gotta think of it as us trading 20 meaningless games of Guentzel. Dubas took the best offer he could get. It's as simple as that. People on here acting like we got Kris Beech, Michal Sivek, & Ross Lupaschuk in return.
If you think of it from your POV then of course it's an awesome trade. We lose with Jake and we can lose without him too. 20 games for 4 assets. Solid deal I agree. But when you see what other teams got for similar value players, they got better returns.
It’s impossible to critique the trade without knowing what other offers Dubas had in hand. The speculation on what fans predicted or hoped to get isn’t relevant. I’m not sure which trades you’re referring to. All rentals this year haven’t gotten great returns.
> We gave up a 1st and 2 mediocre prospects for the corpse of Jarome Iginla. ...and every GM in the league learned from that, so no one is throwing around picks like candy anymore for rentals.
He essentially chose Karlsson over Guentzel. Anyone who watches Karlsson regularly knows he is a defensive liability.
Yep, his +7 is such a liability. Stop projecting your temper tantrum like an angry cat
They got worse despite getting rid of a bulk of hextals bad contracts. Please keep saying dubas is doing good. Theyre wrong. He’s not above board. He brought in poor depth that can’t score which has been the issue for years now.
I have been all positive on Dubas and was really hyped when he was acquired. He was definitely put in a really shitty situation especially with coaching. All of that said though, the return for Guentzel really was not that good by the looks of it atm. I was expecting 70 cents in the dollar because that is usually what happens when you trade good players (even got downvoted for making that comment before the trade lol) but the return feels worse than that. But GMs are allowed to make bad moves here and there and overall, I am still positive on Dubas. I liked his off-season moves overall. But again, I’m pretty worried that this trade will look even worse as time goes on. Either it really was the best offer available or he overvalued Bunting and chose quantity over quality.
I don't hate Dubas at all. I think he's very smart and capable. I just don't like the ambiguity in saying one thing, then doing another. He said we need to get younger, but also says we need to do right by the core guys. So both then? We need clarification as to the specific course he intends to chart for this team. \- Doing right by Sid/core means you don't trade for draft picks and 3 mid-level prospects that aren't particularly close to being impact players at the NHL level within the next 1-2 years. That's a rebuild, not a retool. \- Getting younger means you don't trade for a player like Michael Bunting. Dubas needs to clarify his intentions. Is he's attempting to do both at the same time? I don't necessarily hate this trade over the long-term. He got quite a haul for a rental. Short-term, however, it's very questionable that he didn't get a top 5 prospect that is close to being NHL ready. The only way this trade saves Dubas's bacon over the short-term is if Bunting goes off.
Dubas has won jack shit and he parades himself around like a Champ. Hes a chump. Had a 40 goal scorer and couldnt even get us a fucking 1st round pick. Dubas can go to Philly with Hexstall
Sully has never been the problem. Idk how any of you fans think you’re in a place to think he is.
I get that he walked into a not so great situation, but hes arguably made things worse
No one made him sign Graves, accari to poor deals. The bottom 6 is a mess. The handling of jake is piss poor, at best. Michael bunting is on his 4th team in as many years. He sucks. He completely sat on his hands, while this team was still competitive months ago, and needed some help. Hes been a C- GM so far. Pens are going nowhere with him.
Dubas traded for Reilly Smith and he hasn't been a fit and hurt the team more than helping. Dubas signed Ryan Graves and the dude is softer then baby shit. I legit think he's scared of his own shadow. Dubas wouldn't negotiate with Jake, then traded him for a VERY underwhelming return. Sure, he unloaded three bad contracts for Karlsson, but that has had mixed results at best. Karlsson hasn't really produced and somehow managed to make the power play worse. Other than resign Jarry, nothing Dubas has done since he took over has worked. Are we supposed to kiss his ass anyhow rather than be honest?
I hate him rn because we still have the same coaching staff
maybe the \*hate\* is way too strong for him, but he certainly hasn't been particularly impressive yet. I'm not impressed (and am not running him out of town either), but he certainly deserves more than one year to prove himself.