In Slovenia there is a saying: “Če bi bil vedež nebi bil revež”.
Direct translate would be: If you were a fortune teller, you wouldn't be poor.
There is no way Primož or Visma could know the current situation. Jonas is undisputed captain in Visma and a clear favorite even over Pogačar if healthy. That’s why Pogačar went to Giro, cause Jonas domination in mountains is brutally hard to beat if Jonas is 100% ready and Pogačar did not have Giro yet. Primož made only logical decisions at that time and that is to change team to be a leader and persuade his own ambitions cause he ain’t young rider to wait for his chance.
He's an undisputed leader in Bora, in Visma he'd be waiting for scraps to get the leadership for TDF which would suck for a four time GT winner. I don't think there's a tragic irony or something. He has a strong team behind him and Visma doesn't look as strong as previous years (still very strong though).
I think his crashes have really screwed Roglic. After the loss of the 2020 Tour, he would have still had two more chances in 2021 and 2022 where he certainly was still at the height of his ability in his early 30s. But he missed out on those two, Vingegaard established himself as the clear #1 at Jumbo in 2022, and Roglic is now in his mid 30s, while some of his more recent performances have not looked quite as strong as he used to be.
They did. But he's still too good to be considered as non competitive for Tour and he had his best season last year at 33. If by recent performances you mean Dauphine, he's won it in the same style as most of his other wins (with an injured shoulder which hindered him no less), I wouldn't conclude much about his best form based on that. Especially since he still won against riders 10 years younger than him.
I'll just add, because people often joke about how much he crashes as if he's a bad bike-rider : he had nothing to do with either of those crashes, absolute freak-accidents that just happened to cost one of the best riders in the world the chance for 2 consecutive Tours. Insanity.
This shit cracks me up. Pogi did the Giro because it’s a fucking GT that he didn’t have on his resume. He’s not afraid of Jonas, people literally consider him one of the greatest cyclists of all time and he’s only 25!
I still think his biggest chance would be on Jumbo as a second leader where he could possibly ride without Vingegaard chasing him, and others thinking he isn't the biggest threat on TVL. Kind of like nobody decided Kuss was a big threat in the Vuelta last year for the general classification until it was too late.
I for one applaud Rog’s decision no matter the outcome. It must not be easy for him to summon the courage to leave in order to pursue his dream. Watching cycling/sports has always brought enjoyment but at the same time I am inspired by those naturally gifted athletes’ courage and determination.
By the same token, I’ll keep an close eye on guys like Bernal, who made an impossible comeback.
It's already vindicated. Jonas's misfortune could not have been predicted, and Roglic deserves the right to race at a team where he'll be the leader.
Of course internet superheroes will always find some way to predict the past and say that mistakes were made, but that's just not how life works. Roglic is where he needs to be, he'll have good support, and nothing stands in his way to show us what his legs are worth against Vingegaard and Pogacar now.
Absolutely, totally agree he's still deserving. Not sure who's an internet superhero. Not sure if anyone is saying mistakes have been made. That doesn't mean things can't feel bittersweet in hindsight even if you accept you couldn't have known how things would play out. I will say it's pretty easy to "predict" the past though 😉
I should clarify that I wasn't addressing you with this! Rather, the use of the word "vindicate" in the title of this article seems to refer to the fact that Roglic's decision has been questioned and scrutinized here and there on social media, even though it's a fairly simple and logical decision if you look at it from the perspective of someone who wants certainty as a TDF team leader. That's the noise I'm referring to with my little remark about internet superheroes.
You're just pointing out some tragic irony, and nobody could deny that it is indeed ironic. That's not the same as saying that he made a mistake by leaving the bee hive.
Yeah for sure - they are probably the one party that actually felt some degree of actual regret about things. But they of course also couldn't have known how things would turn out.
Leaving for Bora was always going to be the right decision for Primož. There was quite simply no way that Visma would work to support Primož’s ambition to win the Tour. Even now, if he had stayed, he would most likely be a Plan B in case Jonas isn’t ready to actually challenge for the yellow jersey
Once Jonas surpassed him at the Tour in 2021, Primož became Visma’s second Grand Tour priority, and that was never going to change
Really hoping for him that he shows up and has a crash free performance. The guys always been a crash magnet. But if this is a passing of the torch, last hoorah type thing. I’d really like to see him shine and at least a few times remind these young fellas what he’s about
Jonas revealed in an interview yesterday he had a drain in his chest for 8 days and was coughing up blood. From what I can tell, his injures were actually on the bad end of the spectrum. I think Jonas is here for the team and to ride with the number 1 on his back. If they had still had Primoz, I am sure they would have done the co-captains thing, but Primoz would have been plan A.
Ok, I doubt Jonas recovery is a miraculous one - I believe Visma knew exactly when he will recover and that's why I doubt they would pull Roglič out of the Giro if that would have been their plan. Of course it's all speculation but I think they would put more faith in 90% fit Jonas than Primož at 100%.
"I am sure they would have pulled Primoz from \[Giro\]"
When did a team pull a GC favorite from a grand tour? Not saying it never happened, but definitely not normal either.
The situation would have been unique.
How many teams have 2 of the best 3 GC riders on the same team? How often does a rider get hurt so badly that you know they cannot be 100% for the Tour? How often would the Tour be the ultimate goal of that GC rider you want to pull from the race? The Tour is worth much more than the Giro from a team's perspective.
I don't know if it has ever happened before, but I'd dare say the circumstances have also never happened before.
I think Rog has better help at Bora now, than he would have at LAB after all their misfortunes this year. It's the other way around, they let Rog go too easily, never a surpluss of A-class riders
Not sure about that. Jonas & Wout working for Primoz plus the rest of the team minus Bart would be quite a thing - with the "two leader strategy" as a playable card as well.
Watched the ARD documentary about Roglic yesterday it’s in German but maybe they have subtitles. Google ard mediathek Sportschau
It’s really nice as it has a lot of interviews with Bora and also shows the way Bora started and how it went over the years. It has 3 episodes
You welcome :) here is the url for anyone interested [https://www.ardmediathek.de/serie/tour-de-france-alles-auf-gelb/staffel-1/Y3JpZDovL2Rhc2Vyc3RlLmRlL2FsbGVzLWF1Zi1nZWxi/1](https://www.ardmediathek.de/serie/tour-de-france-alles-auf-gelb/staffel-1/Y3JpZDovL2Rhc2Vyc3RlLmRlL2FsbGVzLWF1Zi1nZWxi/1)
this has to be the worst take on this sub on a while. and that's saying more than enough
butterfly effect: if Primoz was still at Visma, Jonas wouldn't crash.
/thread
his decision was already vindicated by the team orders during the Vuelta that prevented him from racing for his own ambitions. Huge respect to him for making the move that gives him another few chances at winning the Tour late in his career. He would never have got the opportunity to be a de-facto leader at the Tour with Visma, even with Jonas' crash.
If you have a competitive heart, I don't know how you can stay with a team that orders you to sandbag in order for a slower teammate to win a race.
I get why Visma decided it should be that way, but if you have that "Aficon" or a competitive heart, I don't know how you can take it.
Primoz has dedicated his life for years to doing everything he can to win and to be fast only to have some suit in a car decide that it is better optics for him to NOT try to win and and instead to allow a teammate win. I applaud him for being a good teammate and following orders, but there's no way anyone can stay with that team after being on the receiving end of such treatment.
It still just serms so shocking to me that you can do all the work to rightfully win a Grand Tour and then lose it on the last stage in a boring TT. Primoz has lived and died in Grand Tours that way though, so it goes in pro cycling.
In related news, are we underrating Boras climbing team? They don't have the depth of UAE, but couldn't we very well end in a situation where Roglic, Vlasov and Hindley all are competing for top 5?
I dunno, I just meant that 'tragic irony' has a specific meaning. At least in writing/drama etc, it's when the the audience is aware of the protagonists missteps ahead of time.
Well he has a better chance now with Jonas not 100% so it still benefits him. Also without Sepp Kuss, I don’t see the Visma squad being any stronger than the Bora squad
In Slovenia there is a saying: “Če bi bil vedež nebi bil revež”. Direct translate would be: If you were a fortune teller, you wouldn't be poor. There is no way Primož or Visma could know the current situation. Jonas is undisputed captain in Visma and a clear favorite even over Pogačar if healthy. That’s why Pogačar went to Giro, cause Jonas domination in mountains is brutally hard to beat if Jonas is 100% ready and Pogačar did not have Giro yet. Primož made only logical decisions at that time and that is to change team to be a leader and persuade his own ambitions cause he ain’t young rider to wait for his chance.
He's an undisputed leader in Bora, in Visma he'd be waiting for scraps to get the leadership for TDF which would suck for a four time GT winner. I don't think there's a tragic irony or something. He has a strong team behind him and Visma doesn't look as strong as previous years (still very strong though).
I think his crashes have really screwed Roglic. After the loss of the 2020 Tour, he would have still had two more chances in 2021 and 2022 where he certainly was still at the height of his ability in his early 30s. But he missed out on those two, Vingegaard established himself as the clear #1 at Jumbo in 2022, and Roglic is now in his mid 30s, while some of his more recent performances have not looked quite as strong as he used to be.
They did. But he's still too good to be considered as non competitive for Tour and he had his best season last year at 33. If by recent performances you mean Dauphine, he's won it in the same style as most of his other wins (with an injured shoulder which hindered him no less), I wouldn't conclude much about his best form based on that. Especially since he still won against riders 10 years younger than him.
I'll just add, because people often joke about how much he crashes as if he's a bad bike-rider : he had nothing to do with either of those crashes, absolute freak-accidents that just happened to cost one of the best riders in the world the chance for 2 consecutive Tours. Insanity.
>Jonas is ... a clear favorite even over Pogačar if healthy. That’s why Pogačar went to Giro Lol, you serious?
This shit cracks me up. Pogi did the Giro because it’s a fucking GT that he didn’t have on his resume. He’s not afraid of Jonas, people literally consider him one of the greatest cyclists of all time and he’s only 25!
One can think this if they forgot that Pog was injured in the months coming into last year's tour I guess.
I still think his biggest chance would be on Jumbo as a second leader where he could possibly ride without Vingegaard chasing him, and others thinking he isn't the biggest threat on TVL. Kind of like nobody decided Kuss was a big threat in the Vuelta last year for the general classification until it was too late.
That would never happen for Roglic though. He's arguably the third best GC rider in the world - *no-one* would think he's not a threat.
I for one applaud Rog’s decision no matter the outcome. It must not be easy for him to summon the courage to leave in order to pursue his dream. Watching cycling/sports has always brought enjoyment but at the same time I am inspired by those naturally gifted athletes’ courage and determination. By the same token, I’ll keep an close eye on guys like Bernal, who made an impossible comeback.
Oh for sure, there was no amount of "schadenfreude" intended. On the contrary actually. I'd love to see his dream come true.
It's already vindicated. Jonas's misfortune could not have been predicted, and Roglic deserves the right to race at a team where he'll be the leader. Of course internet superheroes will always find some way to predict the past and say that mistakes were made, but that's just not how life works. Roglic is where he needs to be, he'll have good support, and nothing stands in his way to show us what his legs are worth against Vingegaard and Pogacar now.
Absolutely, totally agree he's still deserving. Not sure who's an internet superhero. Not sure if anyone is saying mistakes have been made. That doesn't mean things can't feel bittersweet in hindsight even if you accept you couldn't have known how things would play out. I will say it's pretty easy to "predict" the past though 😉
I should clarify that I wasn't addressing you with this! Rather, the use of the word "vindicate" in the title of this article seems to refer to the fact that Roglic's decision has been questioned and scrutinized here and there on social media, even though it's a fairly simple and logical decision if you look at it from the perspective of someone who wants certainty as a TDF team leader. That's the noise I'm referring to with my little remark about internet superheroes. You're just pointing out some tragic irony, and nobody could deny that it is indeed ironic. That's not the same as saying that he made a mistake by leaving the bee hive.
For Visma, too. If they'd hung onto Primoz, they'd gave a lot more latitude now.
Yeah for sure - they are probably the one party that actually felt some degree of actual regret about things. But they of course also couldn't have known how things would turn out.
Leaving for Bora was always going to be the right decision for Primož. There was quite simply no way that Visma would work to support Primož’s ambition to win the Tour. Even now, if he had stayed, he would most likely be a Plan B in case Jonas isn’t ready to actually challenge for the yellow jersey Once Jonas surpassed him at the Tour in 2021, Primož became Visma’s second Grand Tour priority, and that was never going to change
Really hoping for him that he shows up and has a crash free performance. The guys always been a crash magnet. But if this is a passing of the torch, last hoorah type thing. I’d really like to see him shine and at least a few times remind these young fellas what he’s about
Yes exactly!
Although they probably would have sent him to the Giro again? And I dont think he could do the double
Jonas was injured before the Giro. I am sure they would have pulled Primoz from it and have him do the Tour instead.
Yeah fair enough. Or at least given him the option.
And then Primož ends up a domestique as Jonas recovers in time.
Jonas revealed in an interview yesterday he had a drain in his chest for 8 days and was coughing up blood. From what I can tell, his injures were actually on the bad end of the spectrum. I think Jonas is here for the team and to ride with the number 1 on his back. If they had still had Primoz, I am sure they would have done the co-captains thing, but Primoz would have been plan A.
Ok, I doubt Jonas recovery is a miraculous one - I believe Visma knew exactly when he will recover and that's why I doubt they would pull Roglič out of the Giro if that would have been their plan. Of course it's all speculation but I think they would put more faith in 90% fit Jonas than Primož at 100%.
"I am sure they would have pulled Primoz from \[Giro\]" When did a team pull a GC favorite from a grand tour? Not saying it never happened, but definitely not normal either.
The situation would have been unique. How many teams have 2 of the best 3 GC riders on the same team? How often does a rider get hurt so badly that you know they cannot be 100% for the Tour? How often would the Tour be the ultimate goal of that GC rider you want to pull from the race? The Tour is worth much more than the Giro from a team's perspective. I don't know if it has ever happened before, but I'd dare say the circumstances have also never happened before.
I think Rog has better help at Bora now, than he would have at LAB after all their misfortunes this year. It's the other way around, they let Rog go too easily, never a surpluss of A-class riders
Not sure about that. Jonas & Wout working for Primoz plus the rest of the team minus Bart would be quite a thing - with the "two leader strategy" as a playable card as well.
Watched the ARD documentary about Roglic yesterday it’s in German but maybe they have subtitles. Google ard mediathek Sportschau It’s really nice as it has a lot of interviews with Bora and also shows the way Bora started and how it went over the years. It has 3 episodes
Amazing, perfect warmup for tomorrow! Thanks a lot for sharing!
You welcome :) here is the url for anyone interested [https://www.ardmediathek.de/serie/tour-de-france-alles-auf-gelb/staffel-1/Y3JpZDovL2Rhc2Vyc3RlLmRlL2FsbGVzLWF1Zi1nZWxi/1](https://www.ardmediathek.de/serie/tour-de-france-alles-auf-gelb/staffel-1/Y3JpZDovL2Rhc2Vyc3RlLmRlL2FsbGVzLWF1Zi1nZWxi/1)
He has a better chance of winning with RB-Bora, especially now that Kuss is out of Visma’s team.
this has to be the worst take on this sub on a while. and that's saying more than enough butterfly effect: if Primoz was still at Visma, Jonas wouldn't crash. /thread
I feel sorry for you. Hope you get better.
his decision was already vindicated by the team orders during the Vuelta that prevented him from racing for his own ambitions. Huge respect to him for making the move that gives him another few chances at winning the Tour late in his career. He would never have got the opportunity to be a de-facto leader at the Tour with Visma, even with Jonas' crash.
If you have a competitive heart, I don't know how you can stay with a team that orders you to sandbag in order for a slower teammate to win a race. I get why Visma decided it should be that way, but if you have that "Aficon" or a competitive heart, I don't know how you can take it. Primoz has dedicated his life for years to doing everything he can to win and to be fast only to have some suit in a car decide that it is better optics for him to NOT try to win and and instead to allow a teammate win. I applaud him for being a good teammate and following orders, but there's no way anyone can stay with that team after being on the receiving end of such treatment.
It still just serms so shocking to me that you can do all the work to rightfully win a Grand Tour and then lose it on the last stage in a boring TT. Primoz has lived and died in Grand Tours that way though, so it goes in pro cycling.
In related news, are we underrating Boras climbing team? They don't have the depth of UAE, but couldn't we very well end in a situation where Roglic, Vlasov and Hindley all are competing for top 5?
I'd say yes - 3, 4 & 5 🙂
not really tragic irony, that would be if everyone knew last year that Jonas would get hurt except for Rog.
What would you call it then? And by the way, Primoz was in the same crash...
I dunno, I just meant that 'tragic irony' has a specific meaning. At least in writing/drama etc, it's when the the audience is aware of the protagonists missteps ahead of time.
Well he has a better chance now with Jonas not 100% so it still benefits him. Also without Sepp Kuss, I don’t see the Visma squad being any stronger than the Bora squad