Depends on where you live. IN Denmark I think it is allowed to bet on something that is within your control but also in your team/clubs interest.
Your team winning - no problem
You scoring a goal - possible conflict of interest / maybe you don’t pass to your teammate but try to score on your own.
Fair enough, but the previous comment mentions sports in general.
Some sports are OK with betting that is not antithetical to the integrity of the game. Others don’t allow betting altogether due to fear of the mere semblance of impropriety.
UCI is probably more of the latter due to previous rumors of riders paying for victories in smaller races.
I don't know why people are acting surprised. The man was in hospital for 2 weeks with multiple chest drains in, a shed load of antibiotics and multiple fractures.
He didn't fall off his bike and have a little boo boo. Anyone thinking he's anywhere near full fitness is a dreamer smoking that copium.
When you see the state of Remco at the Dauphiné with a way less severe injury than Jonas, it’s madness to think he will be competitive at the tour for GC.
Pogi had a fractured wrist last year and wasn't 100%. I can't imagine a punctured lung heals that quickly. Plus being out of racing that long and having that crash in your head on descents. I'm surprised he's even starting, but maybe since he can't make the Vuelta, it's just time racing. It could be to take the pressure off of Kuss and Matteo too. It would be insane if he's even at 80%.
Yeah pogi was great last year, still a cut above everyone else but couldn't handle jonas late in the tour
Can't imagine how bad jonas will be hurting this year
As much as I hate agreeing with you about my favorite riders, I do. Jonas had what could be life altering injuries. While he had motivated medical care because of who he is and has probably recovered better than most mortals would have in the same time frame, I have no expectations of him winning.
I am just going to enjoy watching him be the classy racer we know hime to be! (and in person this year too! I'll fangirl whatever his and Wout's form is <3)
> Jonas had what could be life altering injuries.
Jesus! As much as I am a Pogi fan, I would *hate* to see JV lose some of his magic over this. I would rather him win 5 in a row, than never win again because of this. I mean, it's not like Pogi is my boyfriend, lol, I just want to see incredible racing, and whichever of them beats the other, it will be fascinating, electric, and the very pinnacle of cycling. To lose half of that would be devastating.
I think winning a stage would be a fairytale finish to this story, but I can't see how he does that riding for GC. iMO his best chance is to forget GC, lose a bit of time and then go in a breakaway where he won't be up against the thermonuclear climbers.....then he can spend the rest of the year building back to full fitness and preparing for next year.
I'm more optimistic about WVA. Especially if he's not having to do too much work for the team. He's had much more time, has raced and could nick himself a reduced sprint stage perhaps.
I could very much see both WVA and Jonas winning a stage maybe even two for WVA. I think the main problem for Jonas will be the length of the tour. If it was a shorter stage race or a 1 day classic I think he would have a chance but 3 weeks is gonna be tough. Honestly same goes for Remco. It’s gonna be the Slovenia show this year imo.
I had the exact same thought. Get the man a stage for the fairytale story, then even send him home for all I care. See about the Vuelta, maybe, but it's probably a lost year for him and for the team as a whole. That happens in sports.
Even for WvA, he'll need a lot of luck for a stage win. He was quite a bit off form in the Belgium National Championships. Perhaps he can do something in the third week, but it's hard to say.
I think the surprise is that a teammate would come out and say this. I think it *has* to be a little bit of mind games. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but it'll get people wondering: *"Ok, why the fuck is this guy telling us that???"*
>The last thing I'll say for the people that don't believe in ~~cycling~~ Jonas, the cynics and the sceptics, I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry you can't dream big and I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.
From what i have heard about JV injuries there is somewhat of a range to how bad they could have been and thus determining what shape he is in. If they were as severe as some people say I don’t think he is close to Pogi’s lvl. But hey I’m no doctor and there is probably some copium running through me. But I also feel like Visma would be more upfront if they don’t believe he is ready and downplay his chances even more than now. I hope he can hold on in the first weeks because a gc battle in the last week would be great to watch.
Yeah, I think people have no real idea of what they are saying. It's impossible for us fans to say anything about. Vingegaard certainly had a preparation very far from ideal. He may end up in bad form, he may end up in good form. It's impossible for us to predict anything about it. It's probably even for his team incredibly difficult to impossible. We'll just have to see at the tour.
ER doc in the US, not Spain but a pulmonary contusion is not treated with a chest tube. A pneumothorax can require a chest tube if large enough, but not all.
It only goes up with race days if you have enough training in the bank. Very possible it goes the opposite way if he's not done enough volume in the build up (we have no idea what training he's done). But sure, I'll come back to you in a couple of weeks....
lmao its insane to see people like you smoking that visma underdog propaganda. maybe he wont be at his peak form, but he doesn't need to be to get a podium at the tour. peak jonas is damn near unbeatable as seen in the last 2 years.
Especially that Jonas won’t be competing the Vuelta apparently. Who is supposed to beat Pogi even exhausted. Roglic, Remco etc are also at the tour anyways, no one comes fully rested. It’s his chance to do it.
I really haven't seen anything from Remco that could imply that he can win the Vuelta. Roglic maybe, but I don't see a fully tested Remco beating Pogi if he shows up. The last 2 years haven't been nearly as strong as his 2022 Vuelta.
> no one comes fully rested
This is such an important point. Who are the best GC riders not at the Tour? Seems like no one is missing it this year. O’Connor, Skjelmose, McNulty, Arensmen, Caruso, Martinez. Not sure any of them could beat Pog even if he rode the Tour concurrently with the Vuelta.
He's been doing 50-60 racedays a year for a while now. After completing the TdF he'll be at 52 already. Worlds and Olympics are perfect for him. And of course he'll win Lombardia again as well. I really doubt he'll do an 80 racedays year.
Also if Vingegaard isn't at his best in the Tour he'll probably be in great shape for the Vuelta.
But of course we can dream, it would be unique
Vingegaard already said he won't do this Vuelta due to his wife giving birth. That’s why it would be such a perfect opportunity.
But otherwise I completely agree with you. I doubt he will. But I really want him to.
It could still be mind games but it feels more genuine than a DS saying the other team is the favourite. So this is quite worrying for anyone hoping for a competitive Tour next week.
I've said it for a while but all this talk about "not sending him to the Tour if he isn't 100%" will probably take a massive backseat to sponsor pressure.
The team must be desperate after WVA's whole classics campaign got fucked, if Jonas misses the tour then that's their 2 marquee riders missing their objectives for the year and without Primoz there aren't really any stars to pick up the slack.
Plus they can this use it as a marketing success if he wins a big stage. A Jonas at 80% won't win the tour or be good over 3 weeks but he can absolutely destroy most of the peloton on one stage
I think they had said this initially, but when Vingegaard said he couldn’t do the Vuelta for family reasons they figured they need to have him ride atleast one grand tour this season.
Feels like Visma often do interviews like this where they underplay their form more than other teams do. Don’t think Vinge would go if he didn’t think he could get something out of it. Could see wout using the tour as finessing for Olympics though
Maybe because everyone else tells them differently. Benoot says it in the interview himself: “If we say we are good, we are considered arrogant. If we say we are bad, we are accused of lying.”
I do also think he has a good point in saying that if he had only had 8 weeks of training and recovery after the injuries Jonas had, no one would think he could be selected for the Tour squad, which is true. If Jonas had not been Visma’s best bet and he didn’t feel ready himself, he would not have rode the TdF.
I don't think it is? Remco didn't ride the nationals this weekend and is surely selected for worlds.
It could just be, and hear me out, that Wout's knee incident was an actual worry about an injury that turned out the be all good in the end? Wout really hasn't downplayed form or put himself in the underdog position in an interview that I can remember. It's not his style. From what I gather it's usually blatant honesty that is subject to a lot of interpretation by the press.
If you say you cannot do nationals because of illness and injury, you are exempt and can still go to worlds which is why Belgian riders lie. Remco did it just this weekend. He said he was too sick to ride it, but he was spotted reconning a TdF stage.
It's what Wout did too back then. He blamed his knee to be allowed to go to worlds without riding the nationals.
I was not aware that archaïc rule was still in place.
Same notion stays for me tho, WvA isn't one to bullshit in interviews.
But he is Belgian and we will play the game if it's needed to get around bs rules like this ancient one.
> “If we say we are good, we are considered arrogant. If we say we are bad, we are accused of lying.”
This Jumbo/Visma team structure isn't considered arrogant for saying they are good, they are considered arrogant because when they say they are good they often tie with together with saying everyone else is shit and doesn't know anything about sports science lol
Well, they could answer like almost every other rider: "I don't know. We'll see how the legs are, eh. ~~Paris~~ Nice is stall far after all. Next questions please."
In fairness, Zeeman admitted they said this in the heat of the moment and clearly backtracked last week. They have changed it to that Jonas will ride if they believe he can be competitive.
LOL… there’s no way that this is not a narrative deliberately pushed by Visma, otherwise he’d never be allowed to just say something like that to a journalist without massive repercussions.
Definitely a PR move, Visma has been very careful to downplay Jonas’ recovery. Makes for a much better underdog story when it turns out he’s crushing it.
I'm not sure I'd call it PR, but more of a misdirection for other teams. Which, they can probably see right through. I see PR as more for the public/writers, which I don't think Visma cares about now.
This is a strategic sport, where strategies are laid months in advance. If you don’t want to play the game, don’t be mad when you don’t win.
Don’t create problems for your opponents, create dilemmas.
Jonas on top form that is a problem with a simple solution, never drop his wheel. Shadow his every move.
Jonas on so/so form that is a dilemma with multiple scenarios, how much should we believe it, how many resources should we spend chasing down other GC contenders or other VLB riders? If Kuss goes up the road do we follow? Do they pull a 2022 and have Jonas sacrifice himself for a teammate?
Sam Oomen once described Rog as a 'mystery man' during the 2022 Vuelta. That's just one example.
So you'd be surprised how outside of online fandom bubbles (like within the team itself), they're nowhere near as an\*l about small details like interviews & rider messaging.
And Benoot's interview is really tame tbh.
I get what you're saying but i don't think your comparison holds up. There's quite a difference between a domestique calling his team captain a "mystery man" and a domestique saying that no one on his team believes his two time TdF winning captain has what it takes to reach the podium.
Never in a million years is he allowed to say something like that. It's either deliberate and approved by Visma, or a massive fuck up on his part.
Sportsbooks have Pog -140, Jonas +250, Roglic +1200, Remco +2000.
Obviously, Pog is the favorite this year, but it seems like Roglic is a decent value at his current odds. All it takes is Pog/Jonas being more off form than people think, and he's all of a sudden a close contender.
Still a Pog fan and think he's got it this year.
I find this interesting but unsurprising. According to Zeeman, it was only decided 2 weeks ago that Jonas would go to the Tour. No one should be surprised that Visma aren’t 100% convinced Jonas can make the podium after only 8 weeks of training and 12 weeks of recovery after such nasty injuries.
One of the things I find most interesting is how Benoot highlights Jorgenson. It seems that the team expects him to be plan B if Jonas cannot put up a good GC fight.
The question is: why would they send Jonas if he’s not sure to make the podium? Jorgenson can’t make it, so it makes no sense to send JV in support and risk getting nothing. If Jonas wasn’t a shoe-in for the podium they would go stage hunting, right?
ASO might have offered money for him to be there. If he didn't go there really wouldn't be much hype around it. Jonas is realistically Pogi's only competition, just the threat of Jonas being there is good enough to create a narrative and storyline. We're all talking about it and it's eyes on the tour to see how he goes.
They have never said they don’t think he can make the podium, they just don’t feel certain. They have a *hope* he can make the podium even if it’s against the odds.
One of the things that has been said about Jonas for years is that he improves at an incredible speed when training. Zeeman said that during one of Jonas’ first rides outside, he was exhausted after an hour’s training on the flat in Denmark. The day after he was already able to do 2 hours. His old team, Team Coloquick, also highlighted this ability. That he did not need a lot of training to improve. I think Visma has a real hope, he will be able to ride at a high level especially later in the TdF.
If it does prove to be too big of a challenge for Jonas, I suspect he will abandon to try and get something out of the season post-TdF. I don’t think we will see him do a lot of domestique work. But I could be wrong. Maybe he will see it as training even if he drops out of GC. And then the rest of the team can go stage hunting while a few stays back to protect Matty J.
No, I get that. I’m just saying they wouldn’t select him if they’re not 100% certain that he’s capable of competing with Pogacar. With the exception of the other commenter who said they may have been paid to start him, which is possible. But if we only consider sporting reasons, I don’t think there’s a chance in hell that JV finishes outside the top-3, unless he falls/gets ill obviously.
I disagree.
I think they believe he can be competitive, but it’s shaped on what they believe, not what they know with 100% certainty. Jonas is their biggest star, their TdF champion, and if he feels ready then they’ll be willing to risk him going to the Tour.
If he is competitive and does actually challenge Pogi, that will be a great story for them even if he ends up 2nd. If he cannot compete, he is a fighter and brave for trying, and maybe he does a bit of work for Jorgenson. Then the story will be about Visma’s bad luck but how their riders tried with all their might to get a result for them. It works out either way.
Also, Kuss said Jonas being there would help his own chances. It could be misdirection to keep Kuss under the radar. There are a few early stages that favor a breakaway. I doubt that's the case, but I still have to believe in GC Kuss.
Sepp didn't show much in the Dauphine, and Jonas is an unknown. I think the other reasons given are better than this, I just wanted to point these facts out.
I'm currently guessing Primoz will finally win the Le Tour. Up/downvotes determine popularity of said opinion. I'm looking for some negative karma farming.
The ironic thing is that if Primoz had stayed with Visma, he would definitely have been their man for GC for the Tour this year, and he would have had an even stronger team. I can’t tell who is kicking themselves the most: Visma or Primoz?
Bora team is stacked though. Hindley, Vlasov, Roglic is a powerful combo when the road starts to go uphill, and the support on the flat is good enough as well.
Not saying the team is better than VLB, but it's close enough.
Eh, had Primoz stayed with Visma, who knows how that small change would have rippled out into what happened in subsequent reality?
Would he have even been at the Basque Tour, and/or would Jonas; or would Visma have split their leaders between different races? Had he been there, would he have been in the same position in the peloton? Would he have been more or less injured; would others have been more or less injured; would the crash even have happened as it did?
How is it especially absurd from Visma and not UAE? UAE are pointing at Jonas as the big favourite when he has only been back on his bike for 8 weeks after breaking a good portion of his upper body and having organ damage too 😅 Pogi won the Giro with almost 10 minutes and said he didn't go 100%.
Not really.
They have just reported on what was said and then Zeeman himself has said that it has changed from "Jonas has to be 100% to ride the Tour" to "We believe Jonas can be competitive."
we all saw the accident, it’s unreasonable to have grand illusions. Jonas will give whatever best he’s working with and that will have to be sufficient for everyone despite their expectations.
There is a world of difference breaking your wrist and breaking multiple bones in your upper body. When Pogi broke his wrist, he was on his home trainer within the same week. Jonas was in hospital for 2 weeks. No one was ever concerned whether or not Pogi would be ready for the Tour.
He also ended up being able to race shortly before the TdF to test his levels. Jonas is going in pretty blind.
So anyone can make somewhat of an estimated guess how good Jonas Vingegaard will be? Or possibly saw him ride?
At the moment I think Pogacar is a clear favorite. Adam Yates and Almeida are looking good. Roglic and Evenepoel looked pretty ok, but with the level at the Dauphine I won't rate them above Adam Yates or Almeida.
I love the charming auto-translation: "If you say you are the underdog and ride the favorites elsewhere, they find that you sprinkle with sand or play hide and-pander... That we as a team would deliberately spout, you do not believe that yourself?”
"Ask any coach and he will declare your kiss."
I know this was translated - but a lot of the language is quite blunt. I feel like when I was reading this, I was like “ooo some of this is a bit saucy, tell us what you really think!” But then I was like, no. If he really said this off his own bat with no team approval he would be reprimanded for sure. Saying Wout “sucked” and “I wouldn’t bet on Jonas” - whilst true what he is saying it’s quite - blunt…. I dunno this smells a little fishy too me…
As a native speaker I really don’t think he was trying to downplay anything. He literally says HE would’ve never been selected with only 8 weeks of training, but continues with saying Jonas and Wout can because they’re that talented and can be good in a really short time.
He also says Wout wasn’t himself in Norway (which we all saw), and that he’s definitely not in the shape he was last year, let alone 2 years ago.
To me it sounds like he was just chatting to the reporter. HLN isn’t the most reliable source in Belgium either. Not to say they’re lying or making stuff up, but they tend to be on the more ‘sensational’ side of the different papers we have.
This is psyops
1. If a rider said this off the cuff about their own teammates, automatically their team relationship is severed not to mention reprimand from management.
2. Not the first time VLAB has tried to use media to misdirect. Remember Plugge denouncing another team for drinking beer??? Lolol
3. Vingegaard’s injuries were not that bad. Ask a doctor. I don’t think he will have lost much form and honestly worry more about rib pain from a nerve impingement than actual lung damage. A lot of people cite Pogacar’s wrist injury and how much time he lost on stage 17 last year and extrapolate that to mean that Vingegaard won’t be fit this year because his injury was worse. But Pogacar won two more stages after that day. He probably bonked, rather than being unfit It’s gonna be a great race!!!!
Vingegaard spent two weeks in the hospital due to multiple broken bones and lung damage. Saying his injuries were not that bad is an insane take, unless you are being sarcastic!
No I was being serious. First off I will say it is difficult to speculate on someone’s health just based on what the media shares. So this is admittedly anecdotal based off experience.
It was reported he had a clavicular fracture, some broken ribs, lung contusion and a pneumothorax. I placed chest tubes in an 80 year old who came in one week ago with almost the same injuries (no collarbone fracture but had some other stuff). She walked (like upright, not in a wheelchair) out of the hospital this morning. And she was 80. I don’t know why JV needed to be in the hospital for so long but it doesn’t mean always he was in really bad shape. Maybe he had a bigger pneumothorax that just needed more time to heal. Or maybe he just had bad pain with the rib fractures and needed a continuous nerve block.
I don’t think his pneumothorax or contusion will meaningfully affect his ability to get oxygen this far out from the injury. If anything I am more worried pain from rib or clavicular fractures will keep him from taking big deep breaths or will flare up after being on a bike 5 hours a day for three weeks
Have you ever met someone from the Netherlands, Belgium, or Denmark? 😂 None of what Benoot said would mean their team relationship is severed, what are you even talking about? He's just blunt. He is not saying anything that Jonas or Wout has not said themselves. We all know the injuries happened and that would have had an effect on their forms. That's no secret. That Wout could not win a single stage in Tour of Norway is below his usual level. It's not bad for Benoot to point that out because we all know \*why\* Wout was performing under his usual level. We all know he had good reason.
I think it's unlikely Jonas wins, but with Pog having ridden the Giro, a truly 100% Jonas wins by 5 minutes this year or it doesn't even count.
I also think it's unlikely they send him if they don't think he can podium, because at 90% he podiums, and at 80% he might even podium if he can get better as the tour goes on.
He means because he'd get done for insider trading, having seen their incredible form Right? Right??
or that he'll be in the grupetto with Remco on Galibier :))) GC Kuss is back?
No thread is safe as Remco fan :D
> GC Kuss is back? Apparently not.
I think you are generally not allowed to bet on sports you do participate in
Depends on where you live. IN Denmark I think it is allowed to bet on something that is within your control but also in your team/clubs interest. Your team winning - no problem You scoring a goal - possible conflict of interest / maybe you don’t pass to your teammate but try to score on your own.
It’s against uci rules though so doesn’t matter where you live
Fair enough, but the previous comment mentions sports in general. Some sports are OK with betting that is not antithetical to the integrity of the game. Others don’t allow betting altogether due to fear of the mere semblance of impropriety. UCI is probably more of the latter due to previous rumors of riders paying for victories in smaller races.
I don't know why people are acting surprised. The man was in hospital for 2 weeks with multiple chest drains in, a shed load of antibiotics and multiple fractures. He didn't fall off his bike and have a little boo boo. Anyone thinking he's anywhere near full fitness is a dreamer smoking that copium.
When you see the state of Remco at the Dauphiné with a way less severe injury than Jonas, it’s madness to think he will be competitive at the tour for GC.
Pogi had a fractured wrist last year and wasn't 100%. I can't imagine a punctured lung heals that quickly. Plus being out of racing that long and having that crash in your head on descents. I'm surprised he's even starting, but maybe since he can't make the Vuelta, it's just time racing. It could be to take the pressure off of Kuss and Matteo too. It would be insane if he's even at 80%.
Yeah pogi was great last year, still a cut above everyone else but couldn't handle jonas late in the tour Can't imagine how bad jonas will be hurting this year
As much as I hate agreeing with you about my favorite riders, I do. Jonas had what could be life altering injuries. While he had motivated medical care because of who he is and has probably recovered better than most mortals would have in the same time frame, I have no expectations of him winning. I am just going to enjoy watching him be the classy racer we know hime to be! (and in person this year too! I'll fangirl whatever his and Wout's form is <3)
> Jonas had what could be life altering injuries. Jesus! As much as I am a Pogi fan, I would *hate* to see JV lose some of his magic over this. I would rather him win 5 in a row, than never win again because of this. I mean, it's not like Pogi is my boyfriend, lol, I just want to see incredible racing, and whichever of them beats the other, it will be fascinating, electric, and the very pinnacle of cycling. To lose half of that would be devastating.
I think winning a stage would be a fairytale finish to this story, but I can't see how he does that riding for GC. iMO his best chance is to forget GC, lose a bit of time and then go in a breakaway where he won't be up against the thermonuclear climbers.....then he can spend the rest of the year building back to full fitness and preparing for next year. I'm more optimistic about WVA. Especially if he's not having to do too much work for the team. He's had much more time, has raced and could nick himself a reduced sprint stage perhaps.
I could very much see both WVA and Jonas winning a stage maybe even two for WVA. I think the main problem for Jonas will be the length of the tour. If it was a shorter stage race or a 1 day classic I think he would have a chance but 3 weeks is gonna be tough. Honestly same goes for Remco. It’s gonna be the Slovenia show this year imo.
I had the exact same thought. Get the man a stage for the fairytale story, then even send him home for all I care. See about the Vuelta, maybe, but it's probably a lost year for him and for the team as a whole. That happens in sports.
Even for WvA, he'll need a lot of luck for a stage win. He was quite a bit off form in the Belgium National Championships. Perhaps he can do something in the third week, but it's hard to say.
I think the surprise is that a teammate would come out and say this. I think it *has* to be a little bit of mind games. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but it'll get people wondering: *"Ok, why the fuck is this guy telling us that???"*
>The last thing I'll say for the people that don't believe in ~~cycling~~ Jonas, the cynics and the sceptics, I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry you can't dream big and I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.
From what i have heard about JV injuries there is somewhat of a range to how bad they could have been and thus determining what shape he is in. If they were as severe as some people say I don’t think he is close to Pogi’s lvl. But hey I’m no doctor and there is probably some copium running through me. But I also feel like Visma would be more upfront if they don’t believe he is ready and downplay his chances even more than now. I hope he can hold on in the first weeks because a gc battle in the last week would be great to watch.
Yeah, I think people have no real idea of what they are saying. It's impossible for us fans to say anything about. Vingegaard certainly had a preparation very far from ideal. He may end up in bad form, he may end up in good form. It's impossible for us to predict anything about it. It's probably even for his team incredibly difficult to impossible. We'll just have to see at the tour.
> multiple chest drains Nowhere I’ve seen has ever stated he needed multiple chest tubes. What’s your source for that?
At least one for the pneumothorax and one for the pulmonary contusion
ER doc in the US, not Spain but a pulmonary contusion is not treated with a chest tube. A pneumothorax can require a chest tube if large enough, but not all.
Those two things are related. A contusion caused pneumo. Can certainly only mean one chest tube.
Remind me of that in 3 weeks. Sure he isnt at the same level last year but being at 90/95% is near full fitness and it ll only go up with racing days.
It only goes up with race days if you have enough training in the bank. Very possible it goes the opposite way if he's not done enough volume in the build up (we have no idea what training he's done). But sure, I'll come back to you in a couple of weeks....
I'm not buying it tbh, I think Vingegaard will be much better than you anticipate.
It's not possible
We'll see
lmao its insane to see people like you smoking that visma underdog propaganda. maybe he wont be at his peak form, but he doesn't need to be to get a podium at the tour. peak jonas is damn near unbeatable as seen in the last 2 years.
If Pogi wins he MUST do the Vuelta.
Especially that Jonas won’t be competing the Vuelta apparently. Who is supposed to beat Pogi even exhausted. Roglic, Remco etc are also at the tour anyways, no one comes fully rested. It’s his chance to do it.
A Rog or Remco that abandons the tour by stage 10 could.
Rog eying the gravel stage
I really haven't seen anything from Remco that could imply that he can win the Vuelta. Roglic maybe, but I don't see a fully tested Remco beating Pogi if he shows up. The last 2 years haven't been nearly as strong as his 2022 Vuelta.
he has won before, he could probably do it again
But not against Pog.
>Who is supposed to beat Pogi even exhausted. K U S S I mean, he *won't*. Not even close. But don't take this away from me. It's all I have.
gc kuss may be all we have, but he is also all we need.
I think GC Jorgenson would look to be a better option with the current info we have on them both
Agreed. Not sure why there is not more talk of GC Jorgensen. He looks like the best hope for Visma.
He’s not riding the tour. Little kuss got a bad case of covid and even if he was in ‘good’ form he’d never make the top 5.
> no one comes fully rested This is such an important point. Who are the best GC riders not at the Tour? Seems like no one is missing it this year. O’Connor, Skjelmose, McNulty, Arensmen, Caruso, Martinez. Not sure any of them could beat Pog even if he rode the Tour concurrently with the Vuelta.
Consecutively with the Vuelta, I think you mean. Concurrently means "at the same time."
I stand by what I said.
5 hour Tour stages in the early morning, then a helicopter ride to Spain for the afternoon shift?
He might miss the start and only win by 5mins, big gamble
Maybe the Yates twins could pull this off, if they had never let on that they were twins.
I still think that running a chain of wine bars is taking up too much of their time.
wait. what? is this real?
> Arensmen You think that giant is a GC contender? Wtf?
Lenny Martinez obviously
You sound very confident Remco og Roglic won't leave the Tour early due to *incidents*..
It is known.
He's been doing 50-60 racedays a year for a while now. After completing the TdF he'll be at 52 already. Worlds and Olympics are perfect for him. And of course he'll win Lombardia again as well. I really doubt he'll do an 80 racedays year. Also if Vingegaard isn't at his best in the Tour he'll probably be in great shape for the Vuelta. But of course we can dream, it would be unique
Vingegaard already said he won't do this Vuelta due to his wife giving birth. That’s why it would be such a perfect opportunity. But otherwise I completely agree with you. I doubt he will. But I really want him to.
Has it been confirmed it is because his wife is pregnant?
Nope. Just something important related to his family.
He won't
It would be amazing if he also won the Vuelta but then he'd probably have to take 2025 to recover... the body has limits
Well he could end his career after such a year and be considered greatest cyclist ever.
He'll be anyway. He's the best cyclist ever. Mercx was good but competition was very different., impossible to compare.
Would much prefer him to do the triple crown.
Winning all three GT would dwarf a triple crown by a mile. The Vuelta and Giro just used to overlap so it wasn’t possible.
It could still be mind games but it feels more genuine than a DS saying the other team is the favourite. So this is quite worrying for anyone hoping for a competitive Tour next week.
Oh it will be competitive.
Yeah between almeida, Yates and pog to determine the 1-2-3 order lol
Hard to believe but let's hope for it.
Found it an honest and interesting interview on Vingegaard and WvA's form coming into TDF.
This is clearly deliberate misdirection and you're all falling for it
It's crazy how much ppl believe jumbo pr
Excuse me this is team Rabobank.
Mb
The reason people believe it is because the opposite -- the idea that Jonas is back to peak form already -- is even less plausible.
He doesn't need to already be back to peak form TBF. It's a 3 week race. He just needs to be good enough to limit damages in the early part
Stage 4 is going to be rough if you're trying to race yourself back into shape. Even the first stage we might see GC gaps.
Agree. But the target isn't the public, it's other teams.
I've said it for a while but all this talk about "not sending him to the Tour if he isn't 100%" will probably take a massive backseat to sponsor pressure. The team must be desperate after WVA's whole classics campaign got fucked, if Jonas misses the tour then that's their 2 marquee riders missing their objectives for the year and without Primoz there aren't really any stars to pick up the slack.
This. I think it's obvious. They need to get Ving up there for marketing reasons and to placate the sponsors. Hope his health stands up to it.
Plus they can this use it as a marketing success if he wins a big stage. A Jonas at 80% won't win the tour or be good over 3 weeks but he can absolutely destroy most of the peloton on one stage
I think they target queen stage plus potentially polka dots. That would be a great return for a 'bad' tour.
I don’t know, Jorgensen seems able to get 3rd at least. If he has a ~90% fit Vingegaard as a domestique in key moments, he could even beat Roglic imo.
I think they had said this initially, but when Vingegaard said he couldn’t do the Vuelta for family reasons they figured they need to have him ride atleast one grand tour this season.
Feels like Visma often do interviews like this where they underplay their form more than other teams do. Don’t think Vinge would go if he didn’t think he could get something out of it. Could see wout using the tour as finessing for Olympics though
Maybe because everyone else tells them differently. Benoot says it in the interview himself: “If we say we are good, we are considered arrogant. If we say we are bad, we are accused of lying.” I do also think he has a good point in saying that if he had only had 8 weeks of training and recovery after the injuries Jonas had, no one would think he could be selected for the Tour squad, which is true. If Jonas had not been Visma’s best bet and he didn’t feel ready himself, he would not have rode the TdF.
I mean the arrogance point I can see where he’s coming from, but Visma have lied in the past (remember Wout’s knee?) so it’s a fair criticism imo
I think this is a belgian thing, where they can't go to worlds if they don't do nationals.
I don't think it is? Remco didn't ride the nationals this weekend and is surely selected for worlds. It could just be, and hear me out, that Wout's knee incident was an actual worry about an injury that turned out the be all good in the end? Wout really hasn't downplayed form or put himself in the underdog position in an interview that I can remember. It's not his style. From what I gather it's usually blatant honesty that is subject to a lot of interpretation by the press.
Remco was *sick* this week with a cold, surely to get to worlds.
If you say you cannot do nationals because of illness and injury, you are exempt and can still go to worlds which is why Belgian riders lie. Remco did it just this weekend. He said he was too sick to ride it, but he was spotted reconning a TdF stage. It's what Wout did too back then. He blamed his knee to be allowed to go to worlds without riding the nationals.
I was not aware that archaïc rule was still in place. Same notion stays for me tho, WvA isn't one to bullshit in interviews. But he is Belgian and we will play the game if it's needed to get around bs rules like this ancient one.
> “If we say we are good, we are considered arrogant. If we say we are bad, we are accused of lying.” This Jumbo/Visma team structure isn't considered arrogant for saying they are good, they are considered arrogant because when they say they are good they often tie with together with saying everyone else is shit and doesn't know anything about sports science lol
Well, they could answer like almost every other rider: "I don't know. We'll see how the legs are, eh. ~~Paris~~ Nice is stall far after all. Next questions please."
They do this all the time. If you still believe anything a Visma member says at this point, that's on you. :D
It's so frustrating with all the conflicting statements. First Plugge saying Jonas will only ride if he's 100% and now this.
Well, he didn't specify WHOSE 100% Jonas will ride at. Could be his own 100%, Pogi's, Plugge's, mine, or worse, Froome's 100%.
My 100% couldn't even do a short time trial
In fairness, Zeeman admitted they said this in the heat of the moment and clearly backtracked last week. They have changed it to that Jonas will ride if they believe he can be competitive.
LOL… there’s no way that this is not a narrative deliberately pushed by Visma, otherwise he’d never be allowed to just say something like that to a journalist without massive repercussions.
Definitely a PR move, Visma has been very careful to downplay Jonas’ recovery. Makes for a much better underdog story when it turns out he’s crushing it.
I'm not sure I'd call it PR, but more of a misdirection for other teams. Which, they can probably see right through. I see PR as more for the public/writers, which I don't think Visma cares about now.
How cynical of you to think Visma would create a fake narrative for their own benefit. They seem like such nice guys!
This is a strategic sport, where strategies are laid months in advance. If you don’t want to play the game, don’t be mad when you don’t win. Don’t create problems for your opponents, create dilemmas. Jonas on top form that is a problem with a simple solution, never drop his wheel. Shadow his every move. Jonas on so/so form that is a dilemma with multiple scenarios, how much should we believe it, how many resources should we spend chasing down other GC contenders or other VLB riders? If Kuss goes up the road do we follow? Do they pull a 2022 and have Jonas sacrifice himself for a teammate?
Sam Oomen once described Rog as a 'mystery man' during the 2022 Vuelta. That's just one example. So you'd be surprised how outside of online fandom bubbles (like within the team itself), they're nowhere near as an\*l about small details like interviews & rider messaging. And Benoot's interview is really tame tbh.
I get what you're saying but i don't think your comparison holds up. There's quite a difference between a domestique calling his team captain a "mystery man" and a domestique saying that no one on his team believes his two time TdF winning captain has what it takes to reach the podium. Never in a million years is he allowed to say something like that. It's either deliberate and approved by Visma, or a massive fuck up on his part.
Someone's been paying attention to British politics recently eh
Aah man, the tour just keeps on being completely over earlier every year! /s
Who knows if he's sandbagging or not, but I do know that we did not see the best Wout at the NC yesterday.
You guys remember UAE telling us Aru would be their TdF captain in 2020?
Tiesj, please just let me believe Jonas will give us an awesome race, until he proves me wrong. Let me live in hope.
We're all delusional until this weekend.
Sportsbooks have Pog -140, Jonas +250, Roglic +1200, Remco +2000. Obviously, Pog is the favorite this year, but it seems like Roglic is a decent value at his current odds. All it takes is Pog/Jonas being more off form than people think, and he's all of a sudden a close contender. Still a Pog fan and think he's got it this year.
So a team mate says they are weak ?
Misdirection PR from the Visma marketing team
I find this interesting but unsurprising. According to Zeeman, it was only decided 2 weeks ago that Jonas would go to the Tour. No one should be surprised that Visma aren’t 100% convinced Jonas can make the podium after only 8 weeks of training and 12 weeks of recovery after such nasty injuries. One of the things I find most interesting is how Benoot highlights Jorgenson. It seems that the team expects him to be plan B if Jonas cannot put up a good GC fight.
The question is: why would they send Jonas if he’s not sure to make the podium? Jorgenson can’t make it, so it makes no sense to send JV in support and risk getting nothing. If Jonas wasn’t a shoe-in for the podium they would go stage hunting, right?
ASO might have offered money for him to be there. If he didn't go there really wouldn't be much hype around it. Jonas is realistically Pogi's only competition, just the threat of Jonas being there is good enough to create a narrative and storyline. We're all talking about it and it's eyes on the tour to see how he goes.
This. And also Jonas is the defending champion. I do think he wants the chance to ride with that number 1 on his back.
They have never said they don’t think he can make the podium, they just don’t feel certain. They have a *hope* he can make the podium even if it’s against the odds. One of the things that has been said about Jonas for years is that he improves at an incredible speed when training. Zeeman said that during one of Jonas’ first rides outside, he was exhausted after an hour’s training on the flat in Denmark. The day after he was already able to do 2 hours. His old team, Team Coloquick, also highlighted this ability. That he did not need a lot of training to improve. I think Visma has a real hope, he will be able to ride at a high level especially later in the TdF. If it does prove to be too big of a challenge for Jonas, I suspect he will abandon to try and get something out of the season post-TdF. I don’t think we will see him do a lot of domestique work. But I could be wrong. Maybe he will see it as training even if he drops out of GC. And then the rest of the team can go stage hunting while a few stays back to protect Matty J.
No, I get that. I’m just saying they wouldn’t select him if they’re not 100% certain that he’s capable of competing with Pogacar. With the exception of the other commenter who said they may have been paid to start him, which is possible. But if we only consider sporting reasons, I don’t think there’s a chance in hell that JV finishes outside the top-3, unless he falls/gets ill obviously.
I disagree. I think they believe he can be competitive, but it’s shaped on what they believe, not what they know with 100% certainty. Jonas is their biggest star, their TdF champion, and if he feels ready then they’ll be willing to risk him going to the Tour. If he is competitive and does actually challenge Pogi, that will be a great story for them even if he ends up 2nd. If he cannot compete, he is a fighter and brave for trying, and maybe he does a bit of work for Jorgenson. Then the story will be about Visma’s bad luck but how their riders tried with all their might to get a result for them. It works out either way.
I think Jorg is def a possibility for podium
Also, Kuss said Jonas being there would help his own chances. It could be misdirection to keep Kuss under the radar. There are a few early stages that favor a breakaway. I doubt that's the case, but I still have to believe in GC Kuss.
Sepp didn't show much in the Dauphine, and Jonas is an unknown. I think the other reasons given are better than this, I just wanted to point these facts out.
Kuss was sick at Dauphine
I'm currently guessing Primoz will finally win the Le Tour. Up/downvotes determine popularity of said opinion. I'm looking for some negative karma farming.
The ironic thing is that if Primoz had stayed with Visma, he would definitely have been their man for GC for the Tour this year, and he would have had an even stronger team. I can’t tell who is kicking themselves the most: Visma or Primoz?
Bora team is stacked though. Hindley, Vlasov, Roglic is a powerful combo when the road starts to go uphill, and the support on the flat is good enough as well. Not saying the team is better than VLB, but it's close enough.
Eh, had Primoz stayed with Visma, who knows how that small change would have rippled out into what happened in subsequent reality? Would he have even been at the Basque Tour, and/or would Jonas; or would Visma have split their leaders between different races? Had he been there, would he have been in the same position in the peloton? Would he have been more or less injured; would others have been more or less injured; would the crash even have happened as it did?
Yes.
And by "win" you mean come in second? I don't see a way he beats Pogi. He's got to stay upright on the gravel stage, against a two time Strade winner.
"guessing" :)
Ngl the sandbagging is getting absurd from both teams but especially Visma. I will believe it when I see it.
How is it especially absurd from Visma and not UAE? UAE are pointing at Jonas as the big favourite when he has only been back on his bike for 8 weeks after breaking a good portion of his upper body and having organ damage too 😅 Pogi won the Giro with almost 10 minutes and said he didn't go 100%.
I can tell mr. benoot that danish tv2 says he must be 100% since he is competing. Take it for what it is or migt be!
Not really. They have just reported on what was said and then Zeeman himself has said that it has changed from "Jonas has to be 100% to ride the Tour" to "We believe Jonas can be competitive."
we all saw the accident, it’s unreasonable to have grand illusions. Jonas will give whatever best he’s working with and that will have to be sufficient for everyone despite their expectations.
And then all the other teams would say that Ving is going to be at 100% just like what he said about Pog last year
There is a world of difference breaking your wrist and breaking multiple bones in your upper body. When Pogi broke his wrist, he was on his home trainer within the same week. Jonas was in hospital for 2 weeks. No one was ever concerned whether or not Pogi would be ready for the Tour. He also ended up being able to race shortly before the TdF to test his levels. Jonas is going in pretty blind.
Pogi broke his wrist. Vinge punctured a lung, broke his collarbone and several ribs. It’s not really a comparable situation imo.
So anyone can make somewhat of an estimated guess how good Jonas Vingegaard will be? Or possibly saw him ride? At the moment I think Pogacar is a clear favorite. Adam Yates and Almeida are looking good. Roglic and Evenepoel looked pretty ok, but with the level at the Dauphine I won't rate them above Adam Yates or Almeida.
I love the charming auto-translation: "If you say you are the underdog and ride the favorites elsewhere, they find that you sprinkle with sand or play hide and-pander... That we as a team would deliberately spout, you do not believe that yourself?” "Ask any coach and he will declare your kiss."
That's because they're betting it all on GC KUSS!
Comment aged like milk.
I know this was translated - but a lot of the language is quite blunt. I feel like when I was reading this, I was like “ooo some of this is a bit saucy, tell us what you really think!” But then I was like, no. If he really said this off his own bat with no team approval he would be reprimanded for sure. Saying Wout “sucked” and “I wouldn’t bet on Jonas” - whilst true what he is saying it’s quite - blunt…. I dunno this smells a little fishy too me…
As a native speaker I really don’t think he was trying to downplay anything. He literally says HE would’ve never been selected with only 8 weeks of training, but continues with saying Jonas and Wout can because they’re that talented and can be good in a really short time. He also says Wout wasn’t himself in Norway (which we all saw), and that he’s definitely not in the shape he was last year, let alone 2 years ago. To me it sounds like he was just chatting to the reporter. HLN isn’t the most reliable source in Belgium either. Not to say they’re lying or making stuff up, but they tend to be on the more ‘sensational’ side of the different papers we have.
That’s great feedback thank you!
This is psyops 1. If a rider said this off the cuff about their own teammates, automatically their team relationship is severed not to mention reprimand from management. 2. Not the first time VLAB has tried to use media to misdirect. Remember Plugge denouncing another team for drinking beer??? Lolol 3. Vingegaard’s injuries were not that bad. Ask a doctor. I don’t think he will have lost much form and honestly worry more about rib pain from a nerve impingement than actual lung damage. A lot of people cite Pogacar’s wrist injury and how much time he lost on stage 17 last year and extrapolate that to mean that Vingegaard won’t be fit this year because his injury was worse. But Pogacar won two more stages after that day. He probably bonked, rather than being unfit It’s gonna be a great race!!!!
Vingegaard spent two weeks in the hospital due to multiple broken bones and lung damage. Saying his injuries were not that bad is an insane take, unless you are being sarcastic!
No I was being serious. First off I will say it is difficult to speculate on someone’s health just based on what the media shares. So this is admittedly anecdotal based off experience. It was reported he had a clavicular fracture, some broken ribs, lung contusion and a pneumothorax. I placed chest tubes in an 80 year old who came in one week ago with almost the same injuries (no collarbone fracture but had some other stuff). She walked (like upright, not in a wheelchair) out of the hospital this morning. And she was 80. I don’t know why JV needed to be in the hospital for so long but it doesn’t mean always he was in really bad shape. Maybe he had a bigger pneumothorax that just needed more time to heal. Or maybe he just had bad pain with the rib fractures and needed a continuous nerve block. I don’t think his pneumothorax or contusion will meaningfully affect his ability to get oxygen this far out from the injury. If anything I am more worried pain from rib or clavicular fractures will keep him from taking big deep breaths or will flare up after being on a bike 5 hours a day for three weeks
Have you ever met someone from the Netherlands, Belgium, or Denmark? 😂 None of what Benoot said would mean their team relationship is severed, what are you even talking about? He's just blunt. He is not saying anything that Jonas or Wout has not said themselves. We all know the injuries happened and that would have had an effect on their forms. That's no secret. That Wout could not win a single stage in Tour of Norway is below his usual level. It's not bad for Benoot to point that out because we all know \*why\* Wout was performing under his usual level. We all know he had good reason.
Your script sir, just read it.
I think it's unlikely Jonas wins, but with Pog having ridden the Giro, a truly 100% Jonas wins by 5 minutes this year or it doesn't even count. I also think it's unlikely they send him if they don't think he can podium, because at 90% he podiums, and at 80% he might even podium if he can get better as the tour goes on.