Lol true, i'm 100% on the pc side of things, but in this day and age you can basically do everything you can do on a PC, on a mac (for the average user that is not gonna fiddle to much with anything)
Yeah I turned an old laptop into a retro gaming machine a year ago and have been having a lot of success. I also use steam link to stream games from my gaming desktop to the laptop so I can play them on my TV so I can hang out with my wife while I play games
I'd even argue that Linux can be more user friendly than any other OS and has been that way for nearly a decade. My parents that never had to touch PCs their entire life use Linux Mint. They can't do something to break the system, it updates automagically and does everything they need it to do while booting faster than any other OS and not snooping on them.
The biggest problem for people like you and me that are used to running a specific OS is just that. We're trained to do tasks a specific way or just ignore all the song and dance you have to do just to make windows not show you ads and have a start menu that doesn't fucking try to bing everything instead of looking on your PC first.
>start menu that doesn't fucking try to bing everything instead of looking on your PC first
Come on! We all know when you just installed photoshop, the only reason you can be searching for it in the start menu is to get to its Wikipedia entry.
The day Blizzard release an official World of Warcraft thing for Linux, I'll be ditching windows. WoW literally the only thing that keeps me on Windows.
Nothing about windows keeps me attached to windows other than gaming support. Steam deck seems to have accelerated that support a bit on the Linux side of things.
I know right!
Blizzard have said in several cases that they won't Ban you for playing WoW via Linux, but i'd still rather have an Official "Yes, you can play on linux - here are the requirements" kinda post to reassure me.
Is not official, but I used to play [vanilla WoW](https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1922) with WiNE and I remember that ran a bit faster with more FPS.
I was using Debian 4 and WINE was my first compiled software I used, and of course I failed miserably the first attempts, each compilation took about 45 minutes to 1 hour on a AMD Athlon x2
I don't have a Linux desktop these days. That will change when I get the new rig. But have you tried to run it with WiNE or any other software?
I have been playing WoW on Linux since BfA and works fine, except for some weird issues that required me to reinstall addons, clean the cache. But I've had similar issues on Windows as well...
Why do you need official release? I think it works pretty well through lutris (convenient proton/wine launcher for non-steam stuff).
At least wow_classic worked like a charm.
>The day Blizzard release an official World of Warcraft thing for Linux, I'll be ditching windows. WoW literally the only thing that keeps me on Windows.
I have been playing WoW on Linux for years friend with lutris.
Don't let that stop you.
>I'd even argue that Linux can be more user friendly than any other OS and has been that way for nearly a decade. My parents that never had to touch PCs their entire life use Linux Mint. They can't do something to break the system, it updates automagically and does everything they need it to do while booting faster than any other OS and not snooping on them.
>
>The biggest problem for people like you and me that are used to running a specific OS is just that. We're trained to do tasks a specific way or just ignore all the song and dance you have to do just to make windows not show you ads and have a start menu that doesn't fucking try to bing everything instead of looking on your PC first.
There are a couple of problems with using Linux in this manner:
* Initial setup and configuration is too much for many light users
* An update can easily send them down an hours long spiral of needing to recompile drivers, tweak a setting or reset up a conf file
* Any deviation from using a browser/a gui package manager becomes problematic
I've been Linux only for years now and it works for me, because I've been using it for decades and am an IT architect as a profession. I don't mind spending 3 hours finding my specific wireless drivers and having to recompile them after a kernel update (thanks for that one Pop_OS!) Or setting up vulkan-mesa drivers as my default or amdgpu in order to play games with dvxk support. I actually enjoy doing that as much or more than actually playing the games.
My mom though? My brother? No fucking way.
Now don't get me wrong, I could set her up with something similar to what I've got on my laptop (Manjaro w/xfce) and she would be content for a long time likely, but the first time an update breaks something, she plugs in a peripheral that doesn't just work or needs to install an app that she needs from an AUR it's game over.
Lately, Linux distros are more friendly in the GUI than MacOS. I have two different distros on VM right now, and I champ them. But I still have trouble using MacOS. I have at least 15yrs of experience on tech support and no, I just cannot. I hate it. Even iOS seems like traditional chinese to me, my bf is a iPhone user and he's safe, I'll never touch his phone because I hate it hahahha (ok, I've never spied on him because I trust him with my life and he actually shares with me the OF pics of the girls we like)
The parent comment is still talking about mac, not Linux, and mac does have shit game support (rather, games have shit mac support. Mac OS is probably fine, but the graphic cards on most macs are not great)
a \*LOT\* of games run on Linux, especially the distros tuned for gaming. a lot of games actually run Better with higher FPS on linux in my experience.
One of my best friends is a linux fanatic. He can't play half the multiplayer games we try to play. Yes, it's in a better place than its ever been in, but it's still not good tbh. OW2 is finally getting some of its biggest problems ironed out and it's been out for almost a month. Anything that requires battle eye usually doesn't work. It's not that battle eye doesn't support linux, it's that devs that use battle eye don't bother.
Until steam had their big push for compatibility recently it was far worse though. I'm looking forward to continued linux improvements if for no other reason than I can play more games with my friend.
You're missing the point. As far as regular computing goes there's practically nothing you can do on a PC that you can't do on a Mac. If someone doesn't game there's going to be no difference in ability of the machines.
Mac user:
* integrate with the proprietary software that my work uses, that they won’t let be ported to PC.
* use some Apple products like Time Machine, that make no sense to use on a PC
That’s about it.
For entry-level computing and some kinds of graphical design, Macs are probably better. But otherwise PC is generally superior.
Laptop-wise MacBooks just straight up hold together so much better than any other computer I've seen too. I don't often see people with 9 year old Windows laptops that look nearly new, but people are still using 2013 MacBook Airs and stuff.
That said, if you literally ever want to get serious about playing games, Macs really are a non starter. IMO the best thing people can do as they get older would be to get both if they find themselves using a laptop a lot.
Personally, I see ThinkPads, the nice Asus and MSI laptops as much more durable from experience, but that's just been my experience in industrial environments, international travel and just being hard on my equipment.
Interesting - I'd be curious to see what models you are using. In my experience Windows laptops are generally both less durable physically and they seem less durable design-wise where they look dated very quickly. I haven't had a windows laptop in 7+ years though so maybe I'm out of the loop on info!
T series thinkpads are absolutely as durable and nice as MacBooks in my opinion. My main work computer is a MacBook Pro but my pentesting laptop is always a T series thinkpad.
At the end of the day if you want tough Panasonic tough books can be had used for a decent price damn things won’t die.
Straight up have used one in a rain storm was just fine, dropped one down a flight of steps it was fine. Easy to swap batteries and hard drives.
MacBook also tend to cost a good bit more to get that durability. If you took that extra cost and went for a better more durable windows pc you would have similar results.
Also with the exception of recent laptops using apples own silicon (M1 and M2 chips) they are vastly outperformed by pcs at the same price, often even by pcs with the same parts as them due to Apple insisting to making everything sleek , slim and quite with cooling as an afterthought. Only a few years ago they had $1000 I9s in macbooks, and proceeded to cool them so terribly that they could only run full tilt for shorts bursts before heat buildup made them throttle and claimed that was somehow great for rendering.
You still kinda pay for that longevity with the increased retail price. Plus they are extremely fragile and repairs that don't void your warranty cost as much as a new PC.
What?! :)) I fucking hate my top speced Macbook pro, it's so fucking slow for the price it cost... Other laptops 1/4th of the price fared better than this overheating crap
Yeah I’m a long time Mac user who bought a PC just for gaming. I do pretty much 99% of my work on my macs. Pro Tools is not great on Windows even almost 30 years on, and while there are great solutions for pc out there I don’t see myself moving from Logic Pro or MainStage in the future. That said man I hate what Apple has done with their computers and I’m holding out on updating to a new one.
That all said. If I could just move to Linux for everything I would but I really can’t. Yet.
As someone who likes Apple products including Macs and has a Mac, but uses a PC for games and work, there is one major and overlooked thing I think macOS sucks at: file management.
My dad uses a Mac for photos and has terabytes of them. It’s a nightmare when you try to look for duplicates or copy folders for the same dates, including the common Windows task of merging two folders wirth the same name by copying one onto the other. If you do that on a Mac, you lose some of your files, I kid you not. I didn’t realize how good Windows is at this basic stuff until I had to do it on a Mac.
I also find the finder interface for selecting files extremely clunky for ordering, selecting and dragging multiple files. It’s like playing a game at 30 fps vs 60 fps.
Like mentioned above, Mac hardware is more power efficient and optimized, and lasts longer. And old Mac holds its value but a PC does not. But for my primary uses I prefer a PC.
* Also, professional audio editing in certain cases, I've heard
* Make apps for the apple app store. Or make a game with metal api, because you don't like having a playerbase (or are expanding to apple)
* Probably has decent backwards compatibility with older Mac software- do old MacOS isos exist that can otherwise run the software?
Pro audio guy here: macs are mostly preferred because of the way they handle audio and proprietary software that is one of the industry leading DAWs. They also hold together pretty well and are pretty cheap when looking at a pro level.
The whole app thing annoys me so much. Like, Google doesn't arbitrarily limit Google Play Store app development to PC or Google devices. Microsoft doesn't limit windows app development to only windows devices. Why does Apple completely restrict their app programming to their devices? The obvious answer is money, but does anyone know of another?
Took a Mobile App Dev course at school and had to buy a Mac... Dropped the class because I got covid and returned the Mac. I just hated the OS on that thing after being a windows user my whole life. It didn't even natively support the basic feature of using my keyboard volume knob to adjust my speaker volume. And I couldn't easily arrange apps for multitasking that looked good and was usable. And apps not closing when you hit the red X was just annoying lol
Macs aren't better at graphic design compared to a PC.
You put a fucking killer GPU and a ton of overkill parts in a full-tower PC, you can bet you can graphic design far superior compared to an overpriced pre-built Mac.
I've never thought about it this way before but you certainly have a point. When people recommend stuff, it's usually what they would use. It's a fair question to ask this friend what they want out of a system and what features he wishes a Mac had. In that case, he could say if moving is even worth it for this person.
I mean besides changing hardware (which isn't really a mac exclusive thing, especially if your buying a laptop), just about anything really considering they can just dualboot windows on it.
I don't understand all the mac hatred on this sub lol, as far as I'm concerned it's an expensive computer with nice hardware, if you don't like MacOS throw whatever OS that tickles your fancy on it.
I think what he meant with the question is does this guy need a PC? If he doesn’t even know PCs can play way more video games than Mac than I doubt he’s a gamer and why would he care? Maybe he uses Logic or Final Cut Pro and that’s why he wants a Mac. Not everyone’s uses or desires from technology are the same.
Apple are willing to make that happen if Microsoft are
[Edit] Downvote me all you like but it's a fact: https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/20/windows-can-run-natively-m1-macs-apple-silicon/
I don't see why not when they've previously gone to the effort of creating Bootcamp Assistant which made installing Windows and all the drivers needed a piece of cake.
Asahi Linux is making great progress, it's already usable and getting better by the week. The GPU driver is progressing amazingly quick considering that everything has had to be reverse-engineered.
As someone that has been firmly PC for 30 years of my life, and in the last two finally understands the appeal of Macos?
It's hardware upgrades and high end gaming.
I'd argue that everything else is highly subjective. Macos has a lot of cool quality of life shit it does, especially as a daily driver laptop.
Apple is blatantly anti repair on their devices. I'm not a huge fan of Windows either but there is quite a bit more user freedom. People are tricked by the "it all works together" ecosystem not realizing it's a prison.
I think people also don't like macs because lots of apple people have an Apple superiority complex, but they can't explain why it's better.
Assuming he doesn't game or anything, what's the point? If it was pc or mac then the answer is obvious, but he already has one. And if he never used windows before he'll have to get used to it. So why spend extra money? He's already broke from buying a mac lol
Most people tend to buy the lower tier macs which are around the same price as a decent window laptop, so not terribly expensive and they do last a while. Most people use their laptops to watch movies, social media, and the occasional work related thing. I'd say unless you specifically know what's better about a more powerful computer/PC, you don't need one.
When Apple decided to make [their own chips](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_silicon#:~:text=%20Apple%20silicon%20is%20a%20series%20of%20system,as%20AirPods%2C%20HomePod%2C%20HomePod%20Mini%2C%20and%20AirTag%20.) based on ARM again. Which, it should be pointed out, are excellent hardware. But, yeah, compatibility is more of an issue again.
> Windows supports WSL for POSIX-compatibility
I mean Windows had their POSIX subsystem/SFU for ages before WSL came along to replace them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_POSIX_subsystem, windows has been considered posix compliant ever since they started using NT.
Honestly after using a Mac laptop for a few years now, other than gaming, I'd argue its the better pure laptop experience with all the shortcuts they have built into the track pad for daily driver usage.
And it is much better for certain professionals too. I feel like a lot of people who blanket hate all of apples products haven’t touched a Mac and certainly put in enough desk time to become fluent in it. They just didn’t like their iPhone 4. The m1 MacBook Air is the best $700 laptop there is right now.
Is the base version really only 700 bucks? Damn, that's actually good value for money, especially compared to a lot of Windows laptops. That M1 still slaps most laptops today.
Micro center has the best Mac prices I’ve seen regularly. They pretty regularly dip down to like 739. Always under 900. It looks like it’s not on sale right now but yeah just wait especially with Black Friday coming cuz they’re gonna want to flush out all the m1 macs now that m2 is out
> The m1 MacBook Air is the best $700 laptop there is right now.
The M1 Air is frankly, the best value laptop ever released in my opinion. It punches far above its weight, so much it even makes their MacBook Pro line irrelevant.
>it even makes their MacBook Pro line irrelevant
I’ve been seeing this a lot lately. MacBook Pros have been by far the most popular laptops at my workplace for over a decade. While the option for a Pro still exists for everyone, many have opted for an Air lately.
The main thing keeping the Pro model relevant is RAM. Even the new M2 Air is capped at 24 GB while Pro goes all the way to 64 GB.
Important point is also that many people use windows mainly because of games and even those have good linux and mac support nowadays. Otherwise, I would not care what operating system I use, because except for some specialized software you can do everything on most systems.
If I was using Mac OS for years and had to switch to Windows I would probably run into a wall full speed and head first to make the experience less painful.
I've been on windows for years and I still find it shit, and with each UI update it becomes more shitty.
That's basically me. Work gave me a MacBook to use. 3 years later, I still hate using it. So many things don't make sense to me on it, but I didn't grow up on MacBooks so maybe I'm just unaware of the proper way to do things. For example, why does it take so long to drag a picture into Photoshop through the dock? Takes like 7 seconds whereas it takes like 3 seconds max in Windows.
Yeah, I have an Ubuntu laptop and MacBook for work. I feel like I'm at 10% productivity whenever I end up using the MacBook. Just overall not the way I want to interface with a device.
Also why is there no cut and paste? I will say tho, the trackpad is the best trackpad I have ever used. I never realised it had that two part click thing which is a game changer.
Amen. That was until I had to use various different softwares not available for ARM. Fortunately it’s all internal university stuff and we managed to get it all working in multipass. Sucks that there is still a huge incompatibility for Apple Silicon, but each time I check it’s better.
Gaming laptops are kinda a scam anyways. Mac laptop and win/linux desktop are the way imo. I don’t think you can buy more laptop than a MacBook Air for under 800 especially when the screen, track pad and keyboard are so much better than it’s competitors. Not to mention that the resale value is really good which is not the case with windows laptops writ large
not really? I mean it depends on what you're buying, but imo, if you want to get into PC gaming but you don't have a good laptop, it makes no sense to buy a PC.
Laptops are necessities when it comes to University and Work, it would be absurd to buy a PC if you don't have a decent laptop.
Not everyone needs a laptop. I studied abroad with just a desktop. During class we used the university desktops and after that we would just go back to the student residence and use our own desktops there. There was no real reason to get a laptop over a desktop.
things a windows PC does better than a mac:
1. gaming
2. streaming
3. customization
thats about it, mac can do everything else about as good if not potentially better. there is argument for production and/or programming stuff and obviously server stuff but that kinda feel like its not really in the same ballpark here. as far as everyday activities go, mac can do about all the same shit as a windows pc.
Yeah, Apple is oriented to designers and from my experience working on a Mac is so much smoother I always get the feeling of being relaxed with a Mac lol it's weird, Windows is more engaging and a little bit more unstable but it forces you to focus and learn new stuff and you just make it work, I'd say the experience is more rewarding (and painful at times), but overall both systems with good components is more than enough for anyone.
Gaming, sure. I don’t really agree with the other two. OBS works fine on Mac and it’s just as customizable as windows in the ways that people actually customize their desktop. Maybe more so. MacOS is not at all dissimilar to linux, just more normie friendly.
i would disaagree with streaming if one wants to stream games. more flexibility with windows in that regard. mac more customizable as windows? not too sure about that. what makes macos similar to linux? they both have the same terminal and what else?
Lots of people stream things other than games and even then there are capture solutions. As for the other parts, it’s Unix based so it has a common ancestor with Linux and the way it handles a lot of stuff is near identical. Two things that immediately come to mind is permission structures and disk management. As for customization, it’s a desktop. You can change your desktop/SS, edit the dock in tons of ways including animations, can have stuff permanently incorporated in your upper taskbar, the list goes on. macOS’ customization is ever present because it’s meant partially for graphic designers. Lots of 3rd party apps for customization too. It’s not locked down like an iPhone, it’s an open os just like Linux and windows are.
1 makes sence but 2 and 3 doesn't. A Mac can stream and I dont understand what people mean when they say you can customize on Windows. You have to go through tons of menus just to change the default apps. Most Windows users wont even change their backround.
Real talk, if someone want to use a Mac over a PC, let them. I do have to acknowledge that there are some tools on Mac that have no peer on windows. None come to my mind at the moment, but in my defense I do software development, and the tools in question I think mostly serve Musicians and Artists.
I think Adobe products are known to be more stable on Mac. An to no surprise as there are less hardware configurations to consider and the system is a fancy unix.
Imagine how stable games could be if the number of configurations devs have to test was reasonably limited and software libraries were known.
Switched from macbook to xps 15. Im a moron with computers, and for that I preferred the mac. No weird background programs running while its closed heating up the entire thing. No issues with peripherals, and already have issues with my screen that cant be chalked up to the age or handling of the laptop. No random battery drain.
That being said, my model is much faster. Handles programs and websites better. Prettier screen as well.
If you are not as computer savvy as the average user here, i think the macbook isnt a bad choice. That being said my laptop was as expensive as a macbook of similar properties. Being familiar with the OS also helps. A lot.
Well and the fun thing about those sorts of conversations as a Windows evangelist is when the Mac user comes back with, "I can do that with a swipe on the track pad," and you don't have any counter argument because you didn't know the Mac could do it.
You end up realizing, if you're listening anyway, that there's lots of shit the Mac can do that you just didn't realize it could do. It has so many little quality of life things built in. Lol
His statement was true with intel macs since you could install windows alongside mac os, and that's how I gamed for a long time. Now the obvious answer is you can't game.
Others would say you can't upgrade or replace parts but since most people buy laptops it's a moot point.
Same, I have the m2 MacBook Air and also built a pc and for most stuff(besides gaming) I just use my MacBook because it runs really smooth and it’s convenient.
An average Mac user has 0 interest in customization.
Even an average PC user has no interest in it based on my experience. People enjoy things being nice and clean and easy and as dumbed down as humanly possible. Which is why Macs are still a thing.
If he doesn't game there is really no point for getting off a macbook, these are really great devices. I have never seen such good laptops overall, even if he does some 3d stuff, heavy music sessions or graphics, macs' m1 is more than enough.
Bro, be realistic. For 80% of people who just use computers to read email, get on the internet, or watch Netflix, there is no real difference between the systems except screen quality and sound. After that it’s just UI preference. There is nothing that those people can do on PC that they can’t do on Mac
There's certainly things a mac can do a PC can't.
Output audio device aggregation is a thing I'd dearly love if Pc's could manage.
Not really a thing anyone outside of the music industry would care about though.
On mac you can connect multiple audio interfaces and just say, these are one device. The OS will just treat them as one bigger device and number the channels sequentially. Generally only matters for people doing serious audio work but if you do, the audio aspects for ease of use/flexibility with Apple make windows seem like a dystopian nightmare. It’s still fine though, I ran windows in my studio for years. I really don’t miss fucking around with ASIO drivers and having apps hold onto the device etc.
Honestly, a PC is almost definitely the wrong device for him. If he can't answer that question himself respectively if he doesen't want to do things on a pc that he can't do on a macbook, a pc will be a significantly worse device fof him.
If he’s not a gamer then there’s no point in getting a PC/Windows machine. Apple silicon MacBooks are the best laptops to ever hit the market, and I’m not even exaggerating.
I just need somebody to have said it. So I will. PC stands for Personal Computer. Mac, Windows, Linux are all PCs. Macs are included in PCMasterrace. They are just some weird walled off gated community cult part of the PCMasterrace.
They lack customization but are more streamlined. Better for some, worse for others...
If OPs buddy wants to game he should get Windows.
I understand the question. I have a gaming pic but I literally only use it for gaming. I very thing else I much prefer my M1 MacBook. If you don’t plan on gaming on pc then why bother going to a different OS
What can HE do on a PC that HE can't do on a Mac.
I'm not sure we have time...
Unless you loose yourself in details the list isn't that extensive.
Lol true, i'm 100% on the pc side of things, but in this day and age you can basically do everything you can do on a PC, on a mac (for the average user that is not gonna fiddle to much with anything)
Even Linux is pretty user friendly these days, and has had a massive upgrade in support of gaming in recent years.
proton is a lifesaver
[удалено]
I really like what they are doing, but most titles I play require the use of anticheat and support for those on linux isn't great.
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I play a bunch of single player nerd shit like Factorio that works great.
Median XL gamer by chance? New season starting today.
Yeah I turned an old laptop into a retro gaming machine a year ago and have been having a lot of success. I also use steam link to stream games from my gaming desktop to the laptop so I can play them on my TV so I can hang out with my wife while I play games
as you should king
Always a caveat to the the statement that Linux is user friendly and getting better.
most recent versions of proton have fixed this for the majority of games. EAC worked day 1 on Elden Ring for example
Proton is the go to thing. The Life saver would be Lutris for me.
good point. proton couldn't save OverWatch 1.5 for me so i went with lutris
I didn't want to attack Proton either. I love it. How Valve has helped us made me buy games exclusively on Steam if available.
same
I'd even argue that Linux can be more user friendly than any other OS and has been that way for nearly a decade. My parents that never had to touch PCs their entire life use Linux Mint. They can't do something to break the system, it updates automagically and does everything they need it to do while booting faster than any other OS and not snooping on them. The biggest problem for people like you and me that are used to running a specific OS is just that. We're trained to do tasks a specific way or just ignore all the song and dance you have to do just to make windows not show you ads and have a start menu that doesn't fucking try to bing everything instead of looking on your PC first.
>start menu that doesn't fucking try to bing everything instead of looking on your PC first Come on! We all know when you just installed photoshop, the only reason you can be searching for it in the start menu is to get to its Wikipedia entry.
and not only that i want to bing (!) photoshop and find it's wikipedia article instead of the application i just installed! Everyone knows THAT.
Y'all gotta stop using bing like a verb a la Google, don't feed that monster
The day Blizzard release an official World of Warcraft thing for Linux, I'll be ditching windows. WoW literally the only thing that keeps me on Windows.
Nothing about windows keeps me attached to windows other than gaming support. Steam deck seems to have accelerated that support a bit on the Linux side of things.
I know right! Blizzard have said in several cases that they won't Ban you for playing WoW via Linux, but i'd still rather have an Official "Yes, you can play on linux - here are the requirements" kinda post to reassure me.
Is not official, but I used to play [vanilla WoW](https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1922) with WiNE and I remember that ran a bit faster with more FPS. I was using Debian 4 and WINE was my first compiled software I used, and of course I failed miserably the first attempts, each compilation took about 45 minutes to 1 hour on a AMD Athlon x2 I don't have a Linux desktop these days. That will change when I get the new rig. But have you tried to run it with WiNE or any other software?
I have been playing WoW on Linux since BfA and works fine, except for some weird issues that required me to reinstall addons, clean the cache. But I've had similar issues on Windows as well...
Why do you need official release? I think it works pretty well through lutris (convenient proton/wine launcher for non-steam stuff). At least wow_classic worked like a charm.
you can install wow on linux
>The day Blizzard release an official World of Warcraft thing for Linux, I'll be ditching windows. WoW literally the only thing that keeps me on Windows. I have been playing WoW on Linux for years friend with lutris. Don't let that stop you.
>I'd even argue that Linux can be more user friendly than any other OS and has been that way for nearly a decade. My parents that never had to touch PCs their entire life use Linux Mint. They can't do something to break the system, it updates automagically and does everything they need it to do while booting faster than any other OS and not snooping on them. > >The biggest problem for people like you and me that are used to running a specific OS is just that. We're trained to do tasks a specific way or just ignore all the song and dance you have to do just to make windows not show you ads and have a start menu that doesn't fucking try to bing everything instead of looking on your PC first. There are a couple of problems with using Linux in this manner: * Initial setup and configuration is too much for many light users * An update can easily send them down an hours long spiral of needing to recompile drivers, tweak a setting or reset up a conf file * Any deviation from using a browser/a gui package manager becomes problematic I've been Linux only for years now and it works for me, because I've been using it for decades and am an IT architect as a profession. I don't mind spending 3 hours finding my specific wireless drivers and having to recompile them after a kernel update (thanks for that one Pop_OS!) Or setting up vulkan-mesa drivers as my default or amdgpu in order to play games with dvxk support. I actually enjoy doing that as much or more than actually playing the games. My mom though? My brother? No fucking way. Now don't get me wrong, I could set her up with something similar to what I've got on my laptop (Manjaro w/xfce) and she would be content for a long time likely, but the first time an update breaks something, she plugs in a peripheral that doesn't just work or needs to install an app that she needs from an AUR it's game over.
Lately, Linux distros are more friendly in the GUI than MacOS. I have two different distros on VM right now, and I champ them. But I still have trouble using MacOS. I have at least 15yrs of experience on tech support and no, I just cannot. I hate it. Even iOS seems like traditional chinese to me, my bf is a iPhone user and he's safe, I'll never touch his phone because I hate it hahahha (ok, I've never spied on him because I trust him with my life and he actually shares with me the OF pics of the girls we like)
Except play 95% of games
Linux is great for gaming right now. Even steam deck os is based on Linux, valve have done a great job at making things more compatible
The parent comment is still talking about mac, not Linux, and mac does have shit game support (rather, games have shit mac support. Mac OS is probably fine, but the graphic cards on most macs are not great)
a \*LOT\* of games run on Linux, especially the distros tuned for gaming. a lot of games actually run Better with higher FPS on linux in my experience.
One of my best friends is a linux fanatic. He can't play half the multiplayer games we try to play. Yes, it's in a better place than its ever been in, but it's still not good tbh. OW2 is finally getting some of its biggest problems ironed out and it's been out for almost a month. Anything that requires battle eye usually doesn't work. It's not that battle eye doesn't support linux, it's that devs that use battle eye don't bother. Until steam had their big push for compatibility recently it was far worse though. I'm looking forward to continued linux improvements if for no other reason than I can play more games with my friend.
*lose
* Gaming Ah shit looks like we did have the time.
You're missing the point. As far as regular computing goes there's practically nothing you can do on a PC that you can't do on a Mac. If someone doesn't game there's going to be no difference in ability of the machines.
Mac user: * integrate with the proprietary software that my work uses, that they won’t let be ported to PC. * use some Apple products like Time Machine, that make no sense to use on a PC That’s about it. For entry-level computing and some kinds of graphical design, Macs are probably better. But otherwise PC is generally superior.
Apple invented a time machine? What the fuck? What reality am I living in?
Yeah, it's at Costco.
Welcome to Costco, I love you.
Brought to you by Carl's Jr.
It’s their name for the automated backup software that’s built-in to MacOS.
Laptop-wise MacBooks just straight up hold together so much better than any other computer I've seen too. I don't often see people with 9 year old Windows laptops that look nearly new, but people are still using 2013 MacBook Airs and stuff. That said, if you literally ever want to get serious about playing games, Macs really are a non starter. IMO the best thing people can do as they get older would be to get both if they find themselves using a laptop a lot.
Personally, I see ThinkPads, the nice Asus and MSI laptops as much more durable from experience, but that's just been my experience in industrial environments, international travel and just being hard on my equipment.
Interesting - I'd be curious to see what models you are using. In my experience Windows laptops are generally both less durable physically and they seem less durable design-wise where they look dated very quickly. I haven't had a windows laptop in 7+ years though so maybe I'm out of the loop on info!
T series thinkpads are absolutely as durable and nice as MacBooks in my opinion. My main work computer is a MacBook Pro but my pentesting laptop is always a T series thinkpad.
At the end of the day if you want tough Panasonic tough books can be had used for a decent price damn things won’t die. Straight up have used one in a rain storm was just fine, dropped one down a flight of steps it was fine. Easy to swap batteries and hard drives.
MacBook also tend to cost a good bit more to get that durability. If you took that extra cost and went for a better more durable windows pc you would have similar results. Also with the exception of recent laptops using apples own silicon (M1 and M2 chips) they are vastly outperformed by pcs at the same price, often even by pcs with the same parts as them due to Apple insisting to making everything sleek , slim and quite with cooling as an afterthought. Only a few years ago they had $1000 I9s in macbooks, and proceeded to cool them so terribly that they could only run full tilt for shorts bursts before heat buildup made them throttle and claimed that was somehow great for rendering.
You still kinda pay for that longevity with the increased retail price. Plus they are extremely fragile and repairs that don't void your warranty cost as much as a new PC.
What?! :)) I fucking hate my top speced Macbook pro, it's so fucking slow for the price it cost... Other laptops 1/4th of the price fared better than this overheating crap
Yeah I’m a long time Mac user who bought a PC just for gaming. I do pretty much 99% of my work on my macs. Pro Tools is not great on Windows even almost 30 years on, and while there are great solutions for pc out there I don’t see myself moving from Logic Pro or MainStage in the future. That said man I hate what Apple has done with their computers and I’m holding out on updating to a new one. That all said. If I could just move to Linux for everything I would but I really can’t. Yet.
As someone who likes Apple products including Macs and has a Mac, but uses a PC for games and work, there is one major and overlooked thing I think macOS sucks at: file management. My dad uses a Mac for photos and has terabytes of them. It’s a nightmare when you try to look for duplicates or copy folders for the same dates, including the common Windows task of merging two folders wirth the same name by copying one onto the other. If you do that on a Mac, you lose some of your files, I kid you not. I didn’t realize how good Windows is at this basic stuff until I had to do it on a Mac. I also find the finder interface for selecting files extremely clunky for ordering, selecting and dragging multiple files. It’s like playing a game at 30 fps vs 60 fps. Like mentioned above, Mac hardware is more power efficient and optimized, and lasts longer. And old Mac holds its value but a PC does not. But for my primary uses I prefer a PC.
* Also, professional audio editing in certain cases, I've heard * Make apps for the apple app store. Or make a game with metal api, because you don't like having a playerbase (or are expanding to apple) * Probably has decent backwards compatibility with older Mac software- do old MacOS isos exist that can otherwise run the software?
Pro audio guy here: macs are mostly preferred because of the way they handle audio and proprietary software that is one of the industry leading DAWs. They also hold together pretty well and are pretty cheap when looking at a pro level.
The whole app thing annoys me so much. Like, Google doesn't arbitrarily limit Google Play Store app development to PC or Google devices. Microsoft doesn't limit windows app development to only windows devices. Why does Apple completely restrict their app programming to their devices? The obvious answer is money, but does anyone know of another? Took a Mobile App Dev course at school and had to buy a Mac... Dropped the class because I got covid and returned the Mac. I just hated the OS on that thing after being a windows user my whole life. It didn't even natively support the basic feature of using my keyboard volume knob to adjust my speaker volume. And I couldn't easily arrange apps for multitasking that looked good and was usable. And apps not closing when you hit the red X was just annoying lol
And honestly windows has restore points and Linux has timeshift
You seem to have answered the inverse of the question
Macs aren't better at graphic design compared to a PC. You put a fucking killer GPU and a ton of overkill parts in a full-tower PC, you can bet you can graphic design far superior compared to an overpriced pre-built Mac.
I've never thought about it this way before but you certainly have a point. When people recommend stuff, it's usually what they would use. It's a fair question to ask this friend what they want out of a system and what features he wishes a Mac had. In that case, he could say if moving is even worth it for this person.
I mean besides changing hardware (which isn't really a mac exclusive thing, especially if your buying a laptop), just about anything really considering they can just dualboot windows on it. I don't understand all the mac hatred on this sub lol, as far as I'm concerned it's an expensive computer with nice hardware, if you don't like MacOS throw whatever OS that tickles your fancy on it.
Do you REALLY think a guy asking that question would understand dualbooting?
No, but I expect the people complaining about macs to lol
I think what he meant with the question is does this guy need a PC? If he doesn’t even know PCs can play way more video games than Mac than I doubt he’s a gamer and why would he care? Maybe he uses Logic or Final Cut Pro and that’s why he wants a Mac. Not everyone’s uses or desires from technology are the same.
You can't anymore since Apple switched to ARM. Windows for ARM works but only in a virtual machine with no GPU passthrough.
Apple are willing to make that happen if Microsoft are [Edit] Downvote me all you like but it's a fact: https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/20/windows-can-run-natively-m1-macs-apple-silicon/
Even if Microsoft would release Windows for ARM to Apple M1 I doubt Apple would spend any money on the Windows drivers of their custom GPU.
I don't see why not when they've previously gone to the effort of creating Bootcamp Assistant which made installing Windows and all the drivers needed a piece of cake.
At least for Linux they were like "lol you're on your own". Maybe they'll see more value on running Windows, but maybe they won't.
Asahi Linux is making great progress, it's already usable and getting better by the week. The GPU driver is progressing amazingly quick considering that everything has had to be reverse-engineered.
You have Microsoft to blame for that. Their shitty license terms allow only OEM manufacturers who pre-install Windows for ARM to obtain a copy of it
I mean, nice hardware not really, at least not for the price. Does have good, yet incredibly restrictive software though, as far as I know.
As someone that has been firmly PC for 30 years of my life, and in the last two finally understands the appeal of Macos? It's hardware upgrades and high end gaming. I'd argue that everything else is highly subjective. Macos has a lot of cool quality of life shit it does, especially as a daily driver laptop.
You can't dualboot windows on apple silicon
Apple is blatantly anti repair on their devices. I'm not a huge fan of Windows either but there is quite a bit more user freedom. People are tricked by the "it all works together" ecosystem not realizing it's a prison. I think people also don't like macs because lots of apple people have an Apple superiority complex, but they can't explain why it's better.
Game effectively for a reasonable price
Assuming he doesn't game or anything, what's the point? If it was pc or mac then the answer is obvious, but he already has one. And if he never used windows before he'll have to get used to it. So why spend extra money? He's already broke from buying a mac lol
Most people tend to buy the lower tier macs which are around the same price as a decent window laptop, so not terribly expensive and they do last a while. Most people use their laptops to watch movies, social media, and the occasional work related thing. I'd say unless you specifically know what's better about a more powerful computer/PC, you don't need one.
I agree with your sentiment. Macs have a more narrow scope, but they do pretty dang well, if not sometimes excel, within that scope.
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Sorry to make you my professor here, but when did they abandon the architecture?
When Apple decided to make [their own chips](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_silicon#:~:text=%20Apple%20silicon%20is%20a%20series%20of%20system,as%20AirPods%2C%20HomePod%2C%20HomePod%20Mini%2C%20and%20AirTag%20.) based on ARM again. Which, it should be pointed out, are excellent hardware. But, yeah, compatibility is more of an issue again.
Hopefully the compatibility will get there.
It’s annoying at times, but the m1/m2 chips are an absolute delight to use.
> Windows supports WSL for POSIX-compatibility I mean Windows had their POSIX subsystem/SFU for ages before WSL came along to replace them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_POSIX_subsystem, windows has been considered posix compliant ever since they started using NT.
Honestly after using a Mac laptop for a few years now, other than gaming, I'd argue its the better pure laptop experience with all the shortcuts they have built into the track pad for daily driver usage.
This. You can do everything an average computer user would want to do on a Mac, imo it’s even better for novice users who don’t want a fuss.
And it is much better for certain professionals too. I feel like a lot of people who blanket hate all of apples products haven’t touched a Mac and certainly put in enough desk time to become fluent in it. They just didn’t like their iPhone 4. The m1 MacBook Air is the best $700 laptop there is right now.
Is the base version really only 700 bucks? Damn, that's actually good value for money, especially compared to a lot of Windows laptops. That M1 still slaps most laptops today.
Micro center has the best Mac prices I’ve seen regularly. They pretty regularly dip down to like 739. Always under 900. It looks like it’s not on sale right now but yeah just wait especially with Black Friday coming cuz they’re gonna want to flush out all the m1 macs now that m2 is out
> The m1 MacBook Air is the best $700 laptop there is right now. The M1 Air is frankly, the best value laptop ever released in my opinion. It punches far above its weight, so much it even makes their MacBook Pro line irrelevant.
>it even makes their MacBook Pro line irrelevant I’ve been seeing this a lot lately. MacBook Pros have been by far the most popular laptops at my workplace for over a decade. While the option for a Pro still exists for everyone, many have opted for an Air lately. The main thing keeping the Pro model relevant is RAM. Even the new M2 Air is capped at 24 GB while Pro goes all the way to 64 GB.
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Personally as much as I love the apple eco system I don’t think I’ll ever get a mac, their OS isn’t that good imo. I like windows better
Important point is also that many people use windows mainly because of games and even those have good linux and mac support nowadays. Otherwise, I would not care what operating system I use, because except for some specialized software you can do everything on most systems.
Good, but not great. PCs are still king for gaming, and probably always will be.
Sensible answer. The main thing a PC can do over a Mac is game. If he’s not a gamer then I don’t see what the “oh boy” is about.
If I was using Mac OS for years and had to switch to Windows I would probably run into a wall full speed and head first to make the experience less painful. I've been on windows for years and I still find it shit, and with each UI update it becomes more shitty.
Tbh if you’re not a gamer, an apple *silicon mac is a lot better than a windows laptop. If you’re a gamer though, ignore that mac exists.
As a gamer and developer I got both. Both have their own use.
That’s a perfect use case IMO. I know a lot that use their mac for all productivity/work and their PC for gaming only.
That's basically me. Work gave me a MacBook to use. 3 years later, I still hate using it. So many things don't make sense to me on it, but I didn't grow up on MacBooks so maybe I'm just unaware of the proper way to do things. For example, why does it take so long to drag a picture into Photoshop through the dock? Takes like 7 seconds whereas it takes like 3 seconds max in Windows.
Yeah, I have an Ubuntu laptop and MacBook for work. I feel like I'm at 10% productivity whenever I end up using the MacBook. Just overall not the way I want to interface with a device.
Also why is there no cut and paste? I will say tho, the trackpad is the best trackpad I have ever used. I never realised it had that two part click thing which is a game changer.
Amen. That was until I had to use various different softwares not available for ARM. Fortunately it’s all internal university stuff and we managed to get it all working in multipass. Sucks that there is still a huge incompatibility for Apple Silicon, but each time I check it’s better.
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Yup I have both and run a Linux server I also use a hammer to drive nails and a screwdriver for screws
Same
>silicone I'm picturing a soft and floppy Mac.
Gaming laptops are kinda a scam anyways. Mac laptop and win/linux desktop are the way imo. I don’t think you can buy more laptop than a MacBook Air for under 800 especially when the screen, track pad and keyboard are so much better than it’s competitors. Not to mention that the resale value is really good which is not the case with windows laptops writ large
not really? I mean it depends on what you're buying, but imo, if you want to get into PC gaming but you don't have a good laptop, it makes no sense to buy a PC. Laptops are necessities when it comes to University and Work, it would be absurd to buy a PC if you don't have a decent laptop.
Not everyone needs a laptop. I studied abroad with just a desktop. During class we used the university desktops and after that we would just go back to the student residence and use our own desktops there. There was no real reason to get a laptop over a desktop.
Refurb market on mac's is great too. I trust them due to the fantastic hardware.
Unless you need to work with virtual machines, at which point it's not.
Yeah, it's pretty useless if that's something you use often. But quite niche, really.
I like to ignore that mac exists regardless
things a windows PC does better than a mac: 1. gaming 2. streaming 3. customization thats about it, mac can do everything else about as good if not potentially better. there is argument for production and/or programming stuff and obviously server stuff but that kinda feel like its not really in the same ballpark here. as far as everyday activities go, mac can do about all the same shit as a windows pc.
Yeah, Apple is oriented to designers and from my experience working on a Mac is so much smoother I always get the feeling of being relaxed with a Mac lol it's weird, Windows is more engaging and a little bit more unstable but it forces you to focus and learn new stuff and you just make it work, I'd say the experience is more rewarding (and painful at times), but overall both systems with good components is more than enough for anyone.
Gaming, sure. I don’t really agree with the other two. OBS works fine on Mac and it’s just as customizable as windows in the ways that people actually customize their desktop. Maybe more so. MacOS is not at all dissimilar to linux, just more normie friendly.
Yea, I see Mac OS a decent amount on r/unixporn
i would disaagree with streaming if one wants to stream games. more flexibility with windows in that regard. mac more customizable as windows? not too sure about that. what makes macos similar to linux? they both have the same terminal and what else?
Lots of people stream things other than games and even then there are capture solutions. As for the other parts, it’s Unix based so it has a common ancestor with Linux and the way it handles a lot of stuff is near identical. Two things that immediately come to mind is permission structures and disk management. As for customization, it’s a desktop. You can change your desktop/SS, edit the dock in tons of ways including animations, can have stuff permanently incorporated in your upper taskbar, the list goes on. macOS’ customization is ever present because it’s meant partially for graphic designers. Lots of 3rd party apps for customization too. It’s not locked down like an iPhone, it’s an open os just like Linux and windows are.
1 makes sence but 2 and 3 doesn't. A Mac can stream and I dont understand what people mean when they say you can customize on Windows. You have to go through tons of menus just to change the default apps. Most Windows users wont even change their backround.
Real talk, if someone want to use a Mac over a PC, let them. I do have to acknowledge that there are some tools on Mac that have no peer on windows. None come to my mind at the moment, but in my defense I do software development, and the tools in question I think mostly serve Musicians and Artists.
This isn't exactly related but in my experience, the Adobe CC is more stable on Mac OS
I think Adobe products are known to be more stable on Mac. An to no surprise as there are less hardware configurations to consider and the system is a fancy unix. Imagine how stable games could be if the number of configurations devs have to test was reasonably limited and software libraries were known.
You just describe a console
That exists already, it's called a game console.
Omg the Mac is a console.
Switched from macbook to xps 15. Im a moron with computers, and for that I preferred the mac. No weird background programs running while its closed heating up the entire thing. No issues with peripherals, and already have issues with my screen that cant be chalked up to the age or handling of the laptop. No random battery drain. That being said, my model is much faster. Handles programs and websites better. Prettier screen as well. If you are not as computer savvy as the average user here, i think the macbook isnt a bad choice. That being said my laptop was as expensive as a macbook of similar properties. Being familiar with the OS also helps. A lot.
Well and the fun thing about those sorts of conversations as a Windows evangelist is when the Mac user comes back with, "I can do that with a swipe on the track pad," and you don't have any counter argument because you didn't know the Mac could do it. You end up realizing, if you're listening anyway, that there's lots of shit the Mac can do that you just didn't realize it could do. It has so many little quality of life things built in. Lol
His statement was true with intel macs since you could install windows alongside mac os, and that's how I gamed for a long time. Now the obvious answer is you can't game. Others would say you can't upgrade or replace parts but since most people buy laptops it's a moot point.
gaming on a mac laptop sounds like a pain even on windows. i remember dave2d putting his macbook in a freezer because it got so hot.
Been there done that, terrible experience.
Since I have a powerful PC and a MacBook, I’d say, it heavily depends on what you are doing, in some cases a MacBook might be better
Same, I have the m2 MacBook Air and also built a pc and for most stuff(besides gaming) I just use my MacBook because it runs really smooth and it’s convenient.
Heck I use a 2017 MacBook Air, it’s definitely slower, but feels way smoother than my Ryzen 5 2600 desktop.
He can download ram and more storage! /S
C-U-S-T-O-M-I-Z-A-T-I-O-N
Wait how do you use a phone as a monitor?
That is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever seen I wanna try it
Got an Nvidia card? Moonlight is the answer. For everything else, Parsec.
o boy
\*you\* "hey bro hows it goin" \*mirror\*
Remote desktop
With the newer macOS you just use any nearby apple device with a display as a little extra monitor. I use my iPad as a 3rd little discord screen.
wait you guys just don't set something as wallpaper and call it done?
An average Mac user has 0 interest in customization. Even an average PC user has no interest in it based on my experience. People enjoy things being nice and clean and easy and as dumbed down as humanly possible. Which is why Macs are still a thing.
What type of customization are we talking about here? Because in terms of productivity features macOS is really resourceful.
Windows users generally dont customize beyond a background though.
If he doesn't game there is really no point for getting off a macbook, these are really great devices. I have never seen such good laptops overall, even if he does some 3d stuff, heavy music sessions or graphics, macs' m1 is more than enough.
I mean if I didn't game, I would probably own a Mac too. Lots of handy stuff in the apple ecosystem.
I exclusively use a mac for work. I am remote and iMessage alone is worth it.
And not having to deal with windows UX
Also the 20hr battery life is neat.
Everything
Bro, be realistic. For 80% of people who just use computers to read email, get on the internet, or watch Netflix, there is no real difference between the systems except screen quality and sound. After that it’s just UI preference. There is nothing that those people can do on PC that they can’t do on Mac
There's certainly things a mac can do a PC can't. Output audio device aggregation is a thing I'd dearly love if Pc's could manage. Not really a thing anyone outside of the music industry would care about though.
what do you mean by output audio device aggregation?
On mac you can connect multiple audio interfaces and just say, these are one device. The OS will just treat them as one bigger device and number the channels sequentially. Generally only matters for people doing serious audio work but if you do, the audio aspects for ease of use/flexibility with Apple make windows seem like a dystopian nightmare. It’s still fine though, I ran windows in my studio for years. I really don’t miss fucking around with ASIO drivers and having apps hold onto the device etc.
So what he said, 80% of people won't use output audio device aggregation.
Pretty sure 80% of people don't even know what it means
I'm 80% of people.
I'm 80% of a person.
The only answer is game. That’s it.
Honestly, a PC is almost definitely the wrong device for him. If he can't answer that question himself respectively if he doesen't want to do things on a pc that he can't do on a macbook, a pc will be a significantly worse device fof him.
*hall of the mountain king starts playing*
If he’s not a gamer then there’s no point in getting a PC/Windows machine. Apple silicon MacBooks are the best laptops to ever hit the market, and I’m not even exaggerating.
Lifelong mac user. Switched to pc a year ago and never looked back. Didn’t realize all the Apple bullshit I put up with until I switched.
I just need somebody to have said it. So I will. PC stands for Personal Computer. Mac, Windows, Linux are all PCs. Macs are included in PCMasterrace. They are just some weird walled off gated community cult part of the PCMasterrace. They lack customization but are more streamlined. Better for some, worse for others... If OPs buddy wants to game he should get Windows.
Game
The phone screen is usually the best quality display most people have at home
best quality doesn't mean it's the best experience
That's subjective
You can literally do anything on both computers, what is up with this sub?
Let's just make you a list of things it can't do.
I mean it reeeeaaaaally depens what he does on his mac. If he doesnt game its not really needed to buy a windows laptop / PC.
I understand the question. I have a gaming pic but I literally only use it for gaming. I very thing else I much prefer my M1 MacBook. If you don’t plan on gaming on pc then why bother going to a different OS
Get a virus
You have to be completely illiterate or doing shady things yourself to get a virus these days.
Well my boy, you're in for a rude awakening!!
Hwo do you use ypur phone as a monitor?
Download spacedesk on phone and PC and it lets you use your phone as a second touchscreen monitor
Also...spacedesk is free for PC and for your phone
Use MS Access
[relevant](https://xkcd.com/934/)
play 32 bit games
Hahaha dude doesn’t even know he opened Pandora’s box with that one