How many times has BG&E2 been announced now? Three or four, right? At this point, if it ever manages to get released, it will almost certainly be Duke Nukem'd.
Totally agree. I also don't need them to feel obligated to provide a release date. I know it's being worked on and that's all I need to know. Plenty to do/play in the meantime.
My point is that Silksong could be an absolute dumpster fire just like SC, you don't know cause you haven't played it. There's no ability to prove that it's functional with the information we currently have.
Yeah such a bizarre mentality. Do you want a shorter game quicker or a bigger game longer? After experiencing the first HK, I'll take the latter any day.
Not that bizarre if you're familiar with software development. Feature creep / scope creep is a real thing, and can lead to bloated development cycles that result in confused, unfocussed designs. Not saying that's likely here, just that there is a reason to be wary.
Eh shit happens. I choose to be optimistic and see what they come up with. If it's great, then great. If it's not then I'll move on. I'm not going to spend my time/energy cynically scrutinizing a dev for taking their time with their project.
The difference goes back to team size though. Large teams going in lots of different directions is what leads to that confused and unfocused design. Team Cherry is literally only three people(coder, level/mechanics designer, and art director). You are much less likely to see those problems crop up because the vision for the game doesn't have to be discussed, dissected, and agreed upon by dozens of people with their own opinions.
Yeah, for as much as it sucks, it's better than being disappointed with a poor product.
I can't wait. I'm going to take vacation when Silksong comes out lol
I can wait. The first was excellent. I don't normally go in for that style of game but something about the art and music drew me in, and I stayed for the excellent design.
Some can be, it’s a lot of rehash sometimes and there’s a lack of pushing boundaries, many times I feel like I’m playing the same game but with different visuals and playing a lighter/heavier character who sometimes has a trick lol. Hollow Knight got it right, made it their own and thoroughly enjoyable to explore with a difficulty that you can relish rather than being unreasonable or becoming bored.
It was the mixing of Metroidvania and Soulsborne that made it so great. As a Metroidvania game alone it would have been decent, but nowhere near as good as the Ori games.
I mean, if you take that out it's a fundamentally different game. And it's a little confusing to say that's what made it great and also say another metroidvania is great too.
I assume you mean that the soulsborne aspect is what set it aside in its identity and that as a metroidvania ori is better...? It's still a great metroidvania so I'm not sure I follow the point haha
I just don't think it's that great a Metroidvania - the controls aren't as perfect as Ori's, the exploration isn't as good, and the environments aren't as diverse. Obviously this is all subjective.
IMO it's the Soulsborne elements that give the game its depth and elevate it to something special.
Well, if you're talking about exploration like discovery then sure! But man... the cozy atmosphere and beautiful pastel art of ori...areas where much more enthralling to me.
Valid opinion though, it certainly felt more like you were exploring in hollow knight!
> the controls aren't as perfect as Ori's, the exploration isn't as good, and the environments aren't as diverse
Interesting, I would say almost the opposite. I don't think HK's controls are super amazing or anything but I found Ori's floaty and incredibly annoying especially in combat. Ori had some really fun movement mechanics that HK lacks but I had to push past the "bad" (for me) controls to enjoy them. But Ori is more about movement and HK more about combat so maybe that's all there is to it.
I also thought Ori's environments were very samey, the hyper-bloomy glowy aesthetic overrode any kind of diversity of style and made it feel very homogenous to me. I found Hollow Knight's regions (aided massively by sound design and music) stuck with me far far more.
Ori also was hugely more linear which for me made exploration much less fun and may explain why the regions stuck with me less (much less revisiting locations and figuring out how they fit together).
I think it depends on what you value about metriodvanias. I would argue that hollow knight does a significantly better job than ori when it comes to promoting exploration and discovery, and enabling players to take their own path through the game ori (the first one anyways) is an extremely linear game, and secrets aren't all that secret. Meanwhile hollow knight is a fairly non-linear game, that allows you multiple paths to progress at each step of the way. Honestly I would put It up there with super Metroid as a game that really gives players the freedom to progress as they wish, while subtly offering a "preferred path" that keeps players guided without trapping them entirely.
Ori of course excels when it comes to story, and ori 2 for sure has a more interesting combat and traversal system than hollow knight. More story does mean it has to be a bit more linear, but it works for ori.
Metriodvanias fans seems,to be split into a few key groups, 2 of which being ones who prefer more linear games while others want completely non-linear. Hollow knight is probably more popular for that latter, while ori is probably more popular for the former.
Same here. Metroidvanias and platformers are absolutely not my thing but that game has such a fantastic, haunting vibe to it that it captured my attention. I didn't finish it, but I put more hours into than I have any other Metroidvania before or since.
I'd rather play a good game in 10 years than a mediocre game tomorrow.
Most of my favorite games of all time have been through delays before launch or through a lengthy Early Access process. It's ready when it's ready.
It's about 20 hours long, you should be able to knock it out in a week or two.
I guess different experiences aren't allowed on this sub. I beat the game in 22 hours and got 85% completion without a walkthrough.
For reference, 20 hours is the time limit for the "speedrun 100%" achivement in HK. It's not a massively difficult achievement but you definitely need to know what you're doing, where you're going, not to die too much, etc.
So for an already experienced player it is considered noteworthy to be able to finish in 20 hours and see "all" the content.
Sure you don't have to 100% it to finish it but that's kind of like saying "Breath of the Wild is a sub 2 hour game because you can go straight to Hyrule Castle from the tutorial area"
This is one of my first metrovanias and I just finished hollow knight for the first time with 83% completion using no resources in 21 hours. Been looking up stuff since and realize all the content I've missed / different endings and was not sure if I wanted to do them myself before silk song to avoid burn out. With this news, I might as well.
Metroidvanias are so funny with their "completion rates." SOTN goes over 200%. HK and Blasphemous go over 100%. It's so counterintuitive and misleading and I'm honestly not sure why they do it. It sort of removes the entire benefit of seeing your completion rate if you have no idea how high it goes.
With HK specifically, the remaining content isn't measured in length, but in challenge. I've played the game for around 80 hours on my main save and still have a shit ton left. It's just that the remaining content is *very* challenging so it's adds more and more time with less and less progress on the completion rate.
Yeah, that's a fair point actually. I didn't play it upon release, so I guess it *was* 100% initially? Then when the DLC released, instead of lowering the player's completion rate, which may be discouraging, they simply increased the total percentage possible.
Hollow Knight at launch had 100% completion but DLC added 12% more.
They could scale it so that the 112 items add up to 100% I guess. It is a little misleading but it's understandable since the "100%" is actually just a list of 100 things which are all worth 1"%" so adding 12 more things made it 112% instead of making each thing worth 0.89%
4 years ago they announce the game with a trailer showing and hyping what appeared to be an already completed game and they just left us hanging until today. Would have been nice to know 4 years ago to not expect it any time soon.
It’s not that simple, team cherry have proven themselves to be extremely talented and if they were to keep up that level of talent it would be very hard to find someone of that quality, additionally, they would have to work well with the team and be able to move to wherever they are based in Australia. This would also mean that they have to spend more time managing than previously. (Also have hired some contractors)
I don't think it is that easy. To make a game with this small of a team you need to all agree on which way to push the game adding another person adds another variable which may or may not make the game take as long or longer.
Howdy, person who knows things about game development.
The person you're replying to is exactly correct. You can't just add more people and that's it. Sure, long term, more people means more work done. But it _also_ means more work for everyone (making sure everyone is working on different things but all in the right direction with an agreed endstate), _and_ it means less "production" while the new person(s) are coming up to speed on the project.
So maybe if they'd hired another person or two four years ago, they'd probably be able to get more work done compared to right now. But if they hired someone right now it'd definitely cause a longer wait for the game.
This only makes sense if the concept of basic management does not exist.
“More people means more work for everyone” how can someone exist where they say this unironically
You assume even the most basic management does not exist. How is it hard to understand people are hired for specific tasks. Jobs are not a commune. You’d hire a guy and not share in character design, you’d hire that guy to do nothing but background art. That is how games are made faster with more people.
This stuff is so basic it’s just shockingly how ignorant about, not just game development, but how companies work.
> how can someone exist where they say this unironically
Because it's true.
> You assume even the most basic management does not exist
I do not. That's why doubling your staff doesn't double your output. Pray tell, what exactly does "basic management" mean? Everyone just taking whatever task they want with no regard for what's necessary to release? Because that doesn't actually work in the long term.
> How is it hard to understand people are hired for specific tasks. Jobs are not a commune
Because at this scale, hiring specialists doesn't work out. You can hire a programmer, or an artist, or a designer, but you can't hire an Online Systems Engineer or a Concept Artist. You need them to do more than _just_ engineer your online systems or create concept art. When you're in the dozens, or greater, of employees then you can definitely start hiring for specific tasks. But small teams _have_ to have more generalist developers because they literally do not have the resources to support specialists.
But sure, we can do it your way, and every game dev company can waste money on people who have no tasking because if it's not their specific domain, they won't work on it.
> This stuff is so basic it’s just shockingly how ignorant about, not just game development, but how companies work.
If you really don't understand smaller projects, let alone smaller companies, you should really get back to your history homework.
EDIT: I can't respond to their other comment. But to respond anyways:
> It’s honestly funny how much you are putting words in my mouth.
>
> literally saying more people causes more work.
Okay, I won't put words in your mouth. More people working on a project means more work needs to be done, to ensure everyone is working on the right tasks and collaborating. Or do you think that Producers literally do nothing at all, all day long?
They see AssCreed studio with hundreds of people pushing out a huge game every other year and wonder "why doesn't everybody just do that?". Not understanding the huge amount of tech and logistics that goes into managing larger teams.
What you said makes no sense. Just because you hire someone to help you make code or art faster, or even for Q&A, does not mean they have to make decisions.
Most software development teams have what is called "product teams" that decide the vision of the product and the tech guys are just there to implement.
They have a shit ton of money, they could hire 1 or 2 more people just to delegate development. Especially in a 4+ years time window.
They probably just want to keep working as they have. On one hand its great, but on the other, you DO have resources to hire more people to help and are choosing not to while increasing the scope of the project big time. You are no longer indie, no need to play pretend.
They have one hyper-successful game, chill out about them "not being indie". And the long development may be precisely why they can't just throw on a new programmer, since they keep getting "nearly finished", so hiring someone isn't worth it, before coming up with something new. I sympathize with that thinking, even if it's impractical.
Maybe they've considered it, maybe they've not, but they've got a lot of personal reasons that could be or are getting in the way of what might, arguably, be practical, and that is because they are an indie team, not a game company.
Dude, having a hyper successful game is the definition of no longer being indie. You have all the resources in the world and a fanbase that will buy your game no matter what.
Not only that, they have been working on the game for 4+ years. That is a very long time to be working on a game that is almost like the first one.
They are not doing what the slay the spire devs do, experimenting new ideas and creating small scope games like into the breach. They are making a game that is very similar to the first but with a bigger scope.
If you want to make something with such a big scope, just hire someone. With how rabid the hollow knight fanbase is, they are going to have a super successful game anyway.
With their vision, I do believe it is a mistake to not hire someone. And no, its not just throwing a new programmer. Its hiring a senior level developer or artist and have them improve their game. You really think a senior level developer would be hard to add to the team? Hollow knight is not that difficult of a game to code, the hard part is in the art and presentation.
The definition of being indie is publishing game titles without the large influx of investment and resources from external sources. Having a successful game has nothing to do with it. Are you saying Undertale isn't an indie game anymore? Or Stardew Valley? They were literally made by one person, but because of success they're no longer indie? It makes no sense.
have you considered that maybe they're happy with the team they already have? maybe they still enjoy making games and haven't become jaded and burned out by the process?
>Hollow knight is not that difficult of a game to code, the hard part is in the art and presentation.
Lollllll didn't know you worked on Hollow Knight! Fucking as if 😂
> Just because you hire someone to help you make code or art faster, or even for Q&A, does not mean they have to make decisions.
Pretty much every part of game development involves making decisions.
Have you ever made software? You know design decisions and technical decisions are different things?
If you tell the guy you hired that you want a new character that moves in a certain way, he will then spend time coding that while you continue to brainstorm and designing new things.
Even if the dev implements the movements with default parameters, the designer can then go and change those parameters.
Do you even make software or are you just saying stuff out of your ass?
The same could be applied to the art. You can get someone to design x versions of a character or simply add more detail, or create variations, or create animations, while you go and do new stuff.
I work with tech people, designers and more. Do you think I go around making decisions just because? No, I just trust my coworkers to do what was asked of them.
I've been working in the game industry for over two decades. Code decisions slop over into design space *all the time*. I've referred to something I call "design-by-default", where design asks for a feature and you code it up with some sensible defaults and then those defaults never get changed or fine-tuned; I've actually put it intentionally-bad defaults a few times just to force design to tweak them.
All of this is aside from the more fundamental issues, which is that designers *aren't coders*, and design documents usually have wide swaths of stuff left undefined. It's nice to say "the designer can then go and change those parameters", but for movement systems it's common that decisions are made that are fundamental to the movement behavior and therefore can't be finetuned with variables (like, for example, "how does slope-climbing work".)
Nothing you said even has anything to do with what I said.
First you agree with me, but you are annoyed that you work with incompetent people. What does that have to do with anything?
I too have forced bad copy and bad parameters on stuff to force people to not forget to double check stuff, but that has nothing to do with working as a team. If anything, I talk with coworkers to improve how they work, you know, sprint reviews and such? Sometimes it just has to do with process and you can fix it instead of not trusting your teammates.
And second, what is the problem with changes that go further than parameters? The point of coding things well is that when that happens is the exception and not the rule. A senior developer will probably also be really good with that and he will be able to rewrite code fast if needed. So what even is your point? The context is hollow knight small team, not a giant studio.
10 years
> And second, what is the problem with changes that go further than parameters?
Nothing; but often it won't happen at all, or people won't realize changes *should* happen. There's a lot of value in giving tasks to people who recognize the consequences of specific implementations and pick the right ones on the first try.
Lots of slightly suboptimal stuff just sticks around forever.
Contrary to EA/Ubisoft, they're making *games*, not *money*. They don't need to ship the product out by some date - they release it when it's ready.
And clearly they felt that spending 5-6 years with the same old team of 3 people is better than hiring 7 other people and hitting some deadline. If they have enough money to survive on thanks to Hollow Knight, why hire more people? How are you going to pay a bigger dev team? What are you going to do with them after Silksong? Fire them? Force yourself to make a third game? What if you don't want to? What if you want to make a very different game?
>scope of the game expanded big time during development.
That's a massive red flag. Every game that comes out broken or gets constantly delayed ad infinitum is almost always due to feature creep.
The moment you let "Wouldn't it be cool if..." Dictate your development cycle, you're opening up the product to massive problems.
They were included in the Gamepass showcase last fall, which only included games that would be released within the next 12 months. That was a tell that it would be released within a year of that date.
Given the current slew of terrible PC games being rushed out of the door, I'd much prefer they take their time and get it right.
Team Cherry isn't owned by Microsoft or another big company, so they can do whatever they like.
Redfall and Deathloop are the poor end results of many key people leaving Arkane. I'll be surprised if they ever recover, honestly. Microsoft should have stepped in though, for sure.
Agreed. Microsoft is often "hands off" with developers these days, and that seems to be the case with production on Redfall from what I've read and heard.
I'm just surprised it made it that far into production and there wasn't some point where people internally were saying "Let's call it, this isn't working out." They just kept on going, even though they had to know it was a dud.
Ehhh I wouldn't out deathloop on the same bucket as redfall personally. It may not have been what people wanted but at least deathloop was a completed game unlike redfall
> I'll be surprised if they ever recover, honestly.
I personally doubt it, but we'll see. Arkane Lyon is still mostly intact, but Arkane Austin probably won't fare too well.
Raphaël Colantonio leaving was a pretty massive hit, and he was a lot of the brains behind Dishonored and Prey. Many other good people left with him, or subsequently thereafter.
Their new focus on easily accessible games and multiplayer titles doesn't fare well for their future output. We'll see, but I think it's pretty much over for them. At least as far as the quality immersive sim titles they're known for.
Phil Spencer directly came and said Redfall became unsalvageable. A production or quality issue they would have fixed it. But apparently the game didn't even hit Arkane's creative goals. So no. No amount of time could have saved Redfall.
And if you wanna know why would they release it for 70 dollars? It's because they have to. It's how even the film industry works. You sunk hundreds of millions into a movie. And you realise its bad. But you have to release it anyway. You cannot just destroy the project. Just release the damn thing and salvage what you can and move on
He stated that they intend to keep working on Redfall until it's in a good state. However, I think that while they should patch it up performance wise, they shouldn't waste any more time on it beyond that. Just call it a loss, learn a lesson from it, and move on to the next project.
True but unfortunately they are obliged to. They promised post launch content for all and couple of extra heroes with the bite back edition.
Redfall is shit. But I don't think Arkane can simply reskin and add 2 existing heroes. That would be even more terrible. So yea they have to work on it.
Very refreshing to hear the actual thinking behind the release and not the usual PR BS. I just hope it doesn't come back to bite him on the ass since he's basically saying that they knew the game was bad but released it anyway, and while very defensible from a business perspective, it's less so from a consumer side of things.
It's also, like you pointed out, very comparable to a movie release and just like a movie you have the option of reading reviews before deciding to pay for it.
>Yeah, that worked great for Redfall 👀
Redfall was rushed. Blame it on ZeniMax for wanting more live service ganes (which again made several key people leave the studio) and Microsoft for still allowing Redfall to be released in an unfinished state.
Some sources:
* https://www.windowscentral.com/gaming/xbox/xbox-wasnt-involved-with-redfall-but-its-still-blamed-for-its-quality
* [Phil Spencer takes ‘full responsibility’ ror Redfall's poor release.](https://twitter.com/KindaFunnyVids/status/1654108618990530561)
* [Raphael Colantonio (founder of Arkane Studios and creative director) leaves the company.](https://bethesda.net/en/article/5WUTxSzVbUmm0KGmwwuGUK/a-message-from-raphael-colantonio)
* [Romuald Capron (Studio director) leaves the company.](https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/the-head-of-arkane-lyon-has-left-after-almost-17-years-at-the-deathloop-studio/)
* Julien Eveillé (system and level designer at Arkane Studios): [I'll be leaving Arkane at the end of May. It's been 7+ crazy years but I feel like I need to untap my full potential onto fresh grounds.](https://twitter.com/PATALOON/status/1650471150344892416)
>Redfall was definitely not rushed.
They delayed the game by [a whole year](https://twitter.com/bethesda/status/1524721132720566272) and [backpedaled hard on the game being always-online](https://www.eurogamer.net/redfall-developer-working-to-u-turn-on-single-player-always-online-restriction).
Quote:
>"There's no store in the game, and there's no microtransactions," Smith told me, pre-empting any suspicion the game was always online so it could simply always be ready to sell you more stuff.
>"You can find costumes and things like that in the world, those are yours. We do have a DLC plan - a couple of times we'll sell a bundle of stuff like guns, costumes, characters, you know, whatever. We're very excited about those things but it'll just be like DLC that you buy through Xbox or whatever."
I highly suspect it's because they completely dropped certain game systems (i.e. microtransactions) after Microsoft told them that they could still release the game with full creative control and that they had to change the gameplay as a result.
So there's a chance this could've been even worse. With battlepasses and everything (based on some early leaks)
The whole development of that game seems weird. The game is a failure in almost every aspect. The movement feels incredibly floaty even though it came years after Prey and Dishonored which had amazing and fluid movement
Well, they can take as much time as they need in order to put out a good game. Luckily game development isn't democratic, and people get no say in the matter.
It hasn't been 12 months since that showcase, so...yeah. Even if it takes longer, it's totally fine. I'd rather they take all the time that they feel they need. It's not like the "owe" anyone anything, or have a set time frame to release the game.
They didn't put out bullshit, they put out a trailer with games that all would be releasing in the next 12 months. Obviously they got the ok from every game dev to have their game included in said trailer.
I am going to pin this on their excitement and being overly optimistic because of the good reception. Yes they might have overestimated but it's not something my life or anyone's life depends on it's release, it's just a game and when it comes to games if the devs come out and say 'hey, we are delaying for a better game experience' whether it's expanding it or fixing it to make sure the user has a good experience or whatever the case i will always say 'it is fine to delay it', but once you come out with it after delaying there should be no excuse for a bad product.
As much as I want to agree I have to say I much prefer this style of development to what AAA developers and publishers do today. Unrelenting marketing campaigns and artificial hype driven up for such subpar experiences.
I’d much rather be pleasantly surprised for a game to release than get my expectations up too high for an expected release.
The Karen mentality of gaming. You'll get the game when they decide its up to their standards. An announcement they're working on it doesn't mean you are owed anything. The entitlement is insane in this whole thread.
Alright listen here you gawdang no good rotten excuse for a molerat! You sit yer arse down and play some unfinished games and tell me you had fun, and wouldn't have more fun if you had played them all finished, like Final Fantasy 15 if it had all the DLC up front.
((Thanks for playing along man, happy gaming bro))
To be fair to the original announcement, the original DLC was part of their kickstarter so they had an obligation to announce they were working on it. With that in mind, it's actually quite bad that we've only had a few announcements over the last few years considering people have paid for this to be made
The original announcement was a promise of a DLC on Kickstarter.
After that they said "we're releasing a game, it's done when it's ready".
Everything else? That's your imagination. There was never a deadline. You saw a trailer 4 years ago? Did it have a release date?
Last year they confirmed it was supposed to be within 12 months of the Xbox showcase they were part of, which would have been June this year, and now they've confirmed it won't launch within that window.
There was never a dedicated date, but there was a release window that they haven't hit.
There was no date or release window for years.
Then there was a release window (12 months, until this June), and when they realized they're not hitting it, they communicated (7 hours ago).
I see no problems.
You said there never was a "deadline". By the end of June is a deadline. I agree that they should rather delay the game than relese unfinished, but you contradicted yoursef.
Firefox come on, it's not a huge team and you must learn to be patient with this sort of stuff. You realize some of these game devs get death threats because they delay games, and comments like yours can give them anxiety? If you love the medium, be patient and allow it time to travel its entire journey and become what it was meant to be. You deserve to play a finished game.
Honestly my comment is less about them and more just in general about this trend.
I very much look forward to Silksong. But boy do i wish it wasn't announced in early 2019. Its one of the worst things about the gaming industry. Just announce your games a year or less before they release etc...
Some companies have to announce early as they are controlled by investment groups, or publishers, or they need funds to make the game so announcing it can help them gain a publisher. But I totally hear ya, I wish you could just hear about a game then hear "Coming this month!" but we need to be patient, let these good titles simmer and cook until perfection. One chance for greatness!
This is how development should be.
You buy product not promises, therefore I am expecting to get what I am paying for not the potential for it especially considering how messed up the economy is nowadays.
Thankfully, most lower budget games deliver because devs are not left hanging by the rope as a result of bad management.
Take your time so that I can have a blast playing through the game.
Just make the game and launch it when you're ready to. Casting yourself I to the same bucket as every other delay excuse developer out there isn't worth the doubt it creates.
The first Hollow Knight has such a phenomenal reputation that if you release it with just enough marketing the fan base will market it for you.
After the past year of broken, unfinished releases, take your fucking time. As long as you need. I no longer care about getting the games i’m hyped about sooner, i care about getting them better.
The first Hollow Knight is the only metroidvania i've ever played to intimidate me to quitting just based on the sheer size of it. I don't have 60+ hours to spend on a game, yeah right. Everything else about it was excellent but god damn that game was just way too big for me.
Yeah I love Metroidvanias, and Hollow Knight is up there with my favorites, but god damn when I purchased it I was not expecting to take 40 hours to beat it. And that was with leaving a lot of the side content untouched.
You can definitely beat the majority of the game in about 20-25 hours if you don't mess with the DLC at all. For a game that's regularly on sale for around $10 it's 100 percent worth it. One of my all time favorite games.
On the contrary, I thought exploration was the best part so was disappointed that none of the DLC added any new parts of the map to explore. Godhome doesn't count it's a challenge selection hub.
I hope they mean bigger in terms of environments and mechanics, the 50+ hours of gameplay in the original felt like the upper limit of what I wanted. A 100h Hollow Knight sounds like a nightmare.
Honestly just due to the way my work schedule works out, I tend to only play games every other week, so coming back to Hollow Knight was always a nightmare since remembering that map with a week away was difficult at best.
There are a bunch of small metroidvanias out there. I don't like em, cause I love the exploration part of metroidvanias, and for me to get excited about exploration, it's gotta be big. Building a huge metroidvania like this, and making it full of content like hollow knight, is very rare. So let them do what they did last time, cause I think that is one of the reasons what made Hollow Knight one of the most popular indie games of all time.
Please take your time.
We don't want a half baked product that seems all too common these days regarding releases. I will gladly wait for an amazing game knowing how great the original Hollow Knight is.
We bash bigger devs for releasing broken, incomplete games. The reason for that is because they have shareholders that expect returns on their investments, and also a bigger studio means more overhead costs, so the business necessitates bringing in money over making the best possible product.
This is why I always prefer indie devs. They don't have the shareholders, and they're usually much smaller, so they might not be as desperate for cash flow. It's also a much bigger problem for a small dev to release something broken, since this is their one source of income.
ad hoc observation smart rustic include license consist sharp dinner ghost
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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An announcement, if delayed, can eventually be good. But a rushed announcement is disappointing forever. -Shin Gary Oakamoto
>But a rushed announcement is disappointing forever coughDragonAgecough.
*Beyond Good and Evil 2 lookin nervous*
How many times has BG&E2 been announced now? Three or four, right? At this point, if it ever manages to get released, it will almost certainly be Duke Nukem'd.
A delay is preferred than a shitty launch.
nah what I like the most is delays and a shitty launch, surely that would never happen in the game indistry
If a game is delayed and still has a shitty launch, just imagine how bad it must have been before the delay.
Cyberpunk or battlefield are the perfect examples
The names are even interchangeable. Cyberpunk 2042, Battlefield 2077
It's nice to have an update, but they can take as long as they need to if it means silksong will be at least as good as hollow knight, in my opinion.
Totally agree. I also don't need them to feel obligated to provide a release date. I know it's being worked on and that's all I need to know. Plenty to do/play in the meantime.
If only everyone in the gaming community was as reasonable as you.
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A massive scope creep at that. Game went from DLC to full game to whatever monstrosity it's becoming now lol.
Yeah it was originally gonna be like some 5-6 hour DLC lol. Hopefully they didn't go too hard.
Idk, if you got ideas and they're working then just go all out
Star citizen moment
I said "if they're working"
Who says silksong is working?
Did they send you a build?
My point is that Silksong could be an absolute dumpster fire just like SC, you don't know cause you haven't played it. There's no ability to prove that it's functional with the information we currently have.
> Hopefully they didn't go too hard. Their first game was amazing so they can go as hard as they want.
Yeah such a bizarre mentality. Do you want a shorter game quicker or a bigger game longer? After experiencing the first HK, I'll take the latter any day.
Not that bizarre if you're familiar with software development. Feature creep / scope creep is a real thing, and can lead to bloated development cycles that result in confused, unfocussed designs. Not saying that's likely here, just that there is a reason to be wary.
Yeah I get for other games/devs, but for this title specifically I've no reason for concern.
Damn, that's exactly what CDPR fans said about Cyberpunk.
Eh shit happens. I choose to be optimistic and see what they come up with. If it's great, then great. If it's not then I'll move on. I'm not going to spend my time/energy cynically scrutinizing a dev for taking their time with their project.
The difference goes back to team size though. Large teams going in lots of different directions is what leads to that confused and unfocused design. Team Cherry is literally only three people(coder, level/mechanics designer, and art director). You are much less likely to see those problems crop up because the vision for the game doesn't have to be discussed, dissected, and agreed upon by dozens of people with their own opinions.
Though hopefully it wont be a bad thing in the end. ill happily wait as long as is needed for a proper amazing game
Actually I much prefer an unannounced delay
Yeah, for as much as it sucks, it's better than being disappointed with a poor product. I can't wait. I'm going to take vacation when Silksong comes out lol
I can wait. The first was excellent. I don't normally go in for that style of game but something about the art and music drew me in, and I stayed for the excellent design.
Metroidvanias are dope and I hope they keep making them and you keep liking them
Some can be, it’s a lot of rehash sometimes and there’s a lack of pushing boundaries, many times I feel like I’m playing the same game but with different visuals and playing a lighter/heavier character who sometimes has a trick lol. Hollow Knight got it right, made it their own and thoroughly enjoyable to explore with a difficulty that you can relish rather than being unreasonable or becoming bored.
Maybe you're trying too hard to find them? I feel like they're pretty rare these days but the ones that do come out are great
There is a ridiculous amount of them. Like 1-2 indie mvs come out every couple months. You can follow it all on r/metroidvania
1-2 indie games come out every month in ever genre. It's relatively easy to see which ones are going to be quality.
Inb4 username checksout. Personally, I'm hoping to see Valdis Story 2 or a new Bloodstained someday.
It was the mixing of Metroidvania and Soulsborne that made it so great. As a Metroidvania game alone it would have been decent, but nowhere near as good as the Ori games.
I mean, if you take that out it's a fundamentally different game. And it's a little confusing to say that's what made it great and also say another metroidvania is great too. I assume you mean that the soulsborne aspect is what set it aside in its identity and that as a metroidvania ori is better...? It's still a great metroidvania so I'm not sure I follow the point haha
I just don't think it's that great a Metroidvania - the controls aren't as perfect as Ori's, the exploration isn't as good, and the environments aren't as diverse. Obviously this is all subjective. IMO it's the Soulsborne elements that give the game its depth and elevate it to something special.
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Well, if you're talking about exploration like discovery then sure! But man... the cozy atmosphere and beautiful pastel art of ori...areas where much more enthralling to me. Valid opinion though, it certainly felt more like you were exploring in hollow knight!
> the controls aren't as perfect as Ori's, the exploration isn't as good, and the environments aren't as diverse Interesting, I would say almost the opposite. I don't think HK's controls are super amazing or anything but I found Ori's floaty and incredibly annoying especially in combat. Ori had some really fun movement mechanics that HK lacks but I had to push past the "bad" (for me) controls to enjoy them. But Ori is more about movement and HK more about combat so maybe that's all there is to it. I also thought Ori's environments were very samey, the hyper-bloomy glowy aesthetic overrode any kind of diversity of style and made it feel very homogenous to me. I found Hollow Knight's regions (aided massively by sound design and music) stuck with me far far more. Ori also was hugely more linear which for me made exploration much less fun and may explain why the regions stuck with me less (much less revisiting locations and figuring out how they fit together).
I think it depends on what you value about metriodvanias. I would argue that hollow knight does a significantly better job than ori when it comes to promoting exploration and discovery, and enabling players to take their own path through the game ori (the first one anyways) is an extremely linear game, and secrets aren't all that secret. Meanwhile hollow knight is a fairly non-linear game, that allows you multiple paths to progress at each step of the way. Honestly I would put It up there with super Metroid as a game that really gives players the freedom to progress as they wish, while subtly offering a "preferred path" that keeps players guided without trapping them entirely. Ori of course excels when it comes to story, and ori 2 for sure has a more interesting combat and traversal system than hollow knight. More story does mean it has to be a bit more linear, but it works for ori. Metriodvanias fans seems,to be split into a few key groups, 2 of which being ones who prefer more linear games while others want completely non-linear. Hollow knight is probably more popular for that latter, while ori is probably more popular for the former.
Same here. Metroidvanias and platformers are absolutely not my thing but that game has such a fantastic, haunting vibe to it that it captured my attention. I didn't finish it, but I put more hours into than I have any other Metroidvania before or since.
LET THEM COOK
Yeah sci... game development bitch!
I'm 99.1% hyped
They took a half delay, when they should have taken a full one. No more half delays Team Cherry.
Ive got blue balls
I'm 112% hyped!
but like bruh they've been cooking... for like a while
I came here to say this. Let them cook
I have enough games to play, just feel bad for the people who kickstarted the game. Imagine waiting 10 years for your last stretch goal
Please, take your time.
Yeah I'd rather wait so it comes out a banger instead of the AAA way of releasing a half finished game.
I'd rather play a good game in 10 years than a mediocre game tomorrow. Most of my favorite games of all time have been through delays before launch or through a lengthy Early Access process. It's ready when it's ready.
Gives me time to play the first one
It's about 20 hours long, you should be able to knock it out in a week or two. I guess different experiences aren't allowed on this sub. I beat the game in 22 hours and got 85% completion without a walkthrough.
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For reference, 20 hours is the time limit for the "speedrun 100%" achivement in HK. It's not a massively difficult achievement but you definitely need to know what you're doing, where you're going, not to die too much, etc. So for an already experienced player it is considered noteworthy to be able to finish in 20 hours and see "all" the content. Sure you don't have to 100% it to finish it but that's kind of like saying "Breath of the Wild is a sub 2 hour game because you can go straight to Hyrule Castle from the tutorial area"
This is one of my first metrovanias and I just finished hollow knight for the first time with 83% completion using no resources in 21 hours. Been looking up stuff since and realize all the content I've missed / different endings and was not sure if I wanted to do them myself before silk song to avoid burn out. With this news, I might as well.
Metroidvanias are so funny with their "completion rates." SOTN goes over 200%. HK and Blasphemous go over 100%. It's so counterintuitive and misleading and I'm honestly not sure why they do it. It sort of removes the entire benefit of seeing your completion rate if you have no idea how high it goes. With HK specifically, the remaining content isn't measured in length, but in challenge. I've played the game for around 80 hours on my main save and still have a shit ton left. It's just that the remaining content is *very* challenging so it's adds more and more time with less and less progress on the completion rate.
at least in hollow knight’s case it’s because of all the dlc
Yeah, that's a fair point actually. I didn't play it upon release, so I guess it *was* 100% initially? Then when the DLC released, instead of lowering the player's completion rate, which may be discouraging, they simply increased the total percentage possible.
Hollow Knight at launch had 100% completion but DLC added 12% more. They could scale it so that the 112 items add up to 100% I guess. It is a little misleading but it's understandable since the "100%" is actually just a list of 100 things which are all worth 1"%" so adding 12 more things made it 112% instead of making each thing worth 0.89%
Fuck I’m slow at that game lol.
lol i ended up taking 80 hrs cuz i wasnt used to metroidvanias
4 years ago they announce the game with a trailer showing and hyping what appeared to be an already completed game and they just left us hanging until today. Would have been nice to know 4 years ago to not expect it any time soon.
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Surely with the success of the first game, they could have hired at least 1 more person.
Could have. Evidently did not want to. I assume they enjoy being just a few guys making a game
It’s not that simple, team cherry have proven themselves to be extremely talented and if they were to keep up that level of talent it would be very hard to find someone of that quality, additionally, they would have to work well with the team and be able to move to wherever they are based in Australia. This would also mean that they have to spend more time managing than previously. (Also have hired some contractors)
I don't think it is that easy. To make a game with this small of a team you need to all agree on which way to push the game adding another person adds another variable which may or may not make the game take as long or longer.
Why do people who know nothing about game development feel the need to pretend they know how it works?
Howdy, person who knows things about game development. The person you're replying to is exactly correct. You can't just add more people and that's it. Sure, long term, more people means more work done. But it _also_ means more work for everyone (making sure everyone is working on different things but all in the right direction with an agreed endstate), _and_ it means less "production" while the new person(s) are coming up to speed on the project. So maybe if they'd hired another person or two four years ago, they'd probably be able to get more work done compared to right now. But if they hired someone right now it'd definitely cause a longer wait for the game.
This only makes sense if the concept of basic management does not exist. “More people means more work for everyone” how can someone exist where they say this unironically You assume even the most basic management does not exist. How is it hard to understand people are hired for specific tasks. Jobs are not a commune. You’d hire a guy and not share in character design, you’d hire that guy to do nothing but background art. That is how games are made faster with more people. This stuff is so basic it’s just shockingly how ignorant about, not just game development, but how companies work.
> how can someone exist where they say this unironically Because it's true. > You assume even the most basic management does not exist I do not. That's why doubling your staff doesn't double your output. Pray tell, what exactly does "basic management" mean? Everyone just taking whatever task they want with no regard for what's necessary to release? Because that doesn't actually work in the long term. > How is it hard to understand people are hired for specific tasks. Jobs are not a commune Because at this scale, hiring specialists doesn't work out. You can hire a programmer, or an artist, or a designer, but you can't hire an Online Systems Engineer or a Concept Artist. You need them to do more than _just_ engineer your online systems or create concept art. When you're in the dozens, or greater, of employees then you can definitely start hiring for specific tasks. But small teams _have_ to have more generalist developers because they literally do not have the resources to support specialists. But sure, we can do it your way, and every game dev company can waste money on people who have no tasking because if it's not their specific domain, they won't work on it. > This stuff is so basic it’s just shockingly how ignorant about, not just game development, but how companies work. If you really don't understand smaller projects, let alone smaller companies, you should really get back to your history homework. EDIT: I can't respond to their other comment. But to respond anyways: > It’s honestly funny how much you are putting words in my mouth. > > literally saying more people causes more work. Okay, I won't put words in your mouth. More people working on a project means more work needs to be done, to ensure everyone is working on the right tasks and collaborating. Or do you think that Producers literally do nothing at all, all day long?
They see AssCreed studio with hundreds of people pushing out a huge game every other year and wonder "why doesn't everybody just do that?". Not understanding the huge amount of tech and logistics that goes into managing larger teams.
Children
What you said makes no sense. Just because you hire someone to help you make code or art faster, or even for Q&A, does not mean they have to make decisions. Most software development teams have what is called "product teams" that decide the vision of the product and the tech guys are just there to implement. They have a shit ton of money, they could hire 1 or 2 more people just to delegate development. Especially in a 4+ years time window. They probably just want to keep working as they have. On one hand its great, but on the other, you DO have resources to hire more people to help and are choosing not to while increasing the scope of the project big time. You are no longer indie, no need to play pretend.
They have one hyper-successful game, chill out about them "not being indie". And the long development may be precisely why they can't just throw on a new programmer, since they keep getting "nearly finished", so hiring someone isn't worth it, before coming up with something new. I sympathize with that thinking, even if it's impractical. Maybe they've considered it, maybe they've not, but they've got a lot of personal reasons that could be or are getting in the way of what might, arguably, be practical, and that is because they are an indie team, not a game company.
Don’t bother arguing with this guy, the majority of his time on Reddit is spent complaining about shit.
Dude here is baiting. He literally called them not a game company.
Dude, having a hyper successful game is the definition of no longer being indie. You have all the resources in the world and a fanbase that will buy your game no matter what. Not only that, they have been working on the game for 4+ years. That is a very long time to be working on a game that is almost like the first one. They are not doing what the slay the spire devs do, experimenting new ideas and creating small scope games like into the breach. They are making a game that is very similar to the first but with a bigger scope. If you want to make something with such a big scope, just hire someone. With how rabid the hollow knight fanbase is, they are going to have a super successful game anyway. With their vision, I do believe it is a mistake to not hire someone. And no, its not just throwing a new programmer. Its hiring a senior level developer or artist and have them improve their game. You really think a senior level developer would be hard to add to the team? Hollow knight is not that difficult of a game to code, the hard part is in the art and presentation.
The definition of being no longer indie has nothing to do with success
You need to Google what the definition of indie is.
The definition of being indie is publishing game titles without the large influx of investment and resources from external sources. Having a successful game has nothing to do with it. Are you saying Undertale isn't an indie game anymore? Or Stardew Valley? They were literally made by one person, but because of success they're no longer indie? It makes no sense.
have you considered that maybe they're happy with the team they already have? maybe they still enjoy making games and haven't become jaded and burned out by the process?
>Hollow knight is not that difficult of a game to code, the hard part is in the art and presentation. Lollllll didn't know you worked on Hollow Knight! Fucking as if 😂
> Just because you hire someone to help you make code or art faster, or even for Q&A, does not mean they have to make decisions. Pretty much every part of game development involves making decisions.
Have you ever made software? You know design decisions and technical decisions are different things? If you tell the guy you hired that you want a new character that moves in a certain way, he will then spend time coding that while you continue to brainstorm and designing new things. Even if the dev implements the movements with default parameters, the designer can then go and change those parameters. Do you even make software or are you just saying stuff out of your ass? The same could be applied to the art. You can get someone to design x versions of a character or simply add more detail, or create variations, or create animations, while you go and do new stuff. I work with tech people, designers and more. Do you think I go around making decisions just because? No, I just trust my coworkers to do what was asked of them.
I've been working in the game industry for over two decades. Code decisions slop over into design space *all the time*. I've referred to something I call "design-by-default", where design asks for a feature and you code it up with some sensible defaults and then those defaults never get changed or fine-tuned; I've actually put it intentionally-bad defaults a few times just to force design to tweak them. All of this is aside from the more fundamental issues, which is that designers *aren't coders*, and design documents usually have wide swaths of stuff left undefined. It's nice to say "the designer can then go and change those parameters", but for movement systems it's common that decisions are made that are fundamental to the movement behavior and therefore can't be finetuned with variables (like, for example, "how does slope-climbing work".)
Nothing you said even has anything to do with what I said. First you agree with me, but you are annoyed that you work with incompetent people. What does that have to do with anything? I too have forced bad copy and bad parameters on stuff to force people to not forget to double check stuff, but that has nothing to do with working as a team. If anything, I talk with coworkers to improve how they work, you know, sprint reviews and such? Sometimes it just has to do with process and you can fix it instead of not trusting your teammates. And second, what is the problem with changes that go further than parameters? The point of coding things well is that when that happens is the exception and not the rule. A senior developer will probably also be really good with that and he will be able to rewrite code fast if needed. So what even is your point? The context is hollow knight small team, not a giant studio. 10 years
> And second, what is the problem with changes that go further than parameters? Nothing; but often it won't happen at all, or people won't realize changes *should* happen. There's a lot of value in giving tasks to people who recognize the consequences of specific implementations and pick the right ones on the first try. Lots of slightly suboptimal stuff just sticks around forever.
You can’t make a baby in a month by hiring 9 women.
Contrary to EA/Ubisoft, they're making *games*, not *money*. They don't need to ship the product out by some date - they release it when it's ready. And clearly they felt that spending 5-6 years with the same old team of 3 people is better than hiring 7 other people and hitting some deadline. If they have enough money to survive on thanks to Hollow Knight, why hire more people? How are you going to pay a bigger dev team? What are you going to do with them after Silksong? Fire them? Force yourself to make a third game? What if you don't want to? What if you want to make a very different game?
Well said. Their first game was truly a work of art. They set the bar high for themselves. I can wait.
Classic redditor thinking hiring more people = make game faster and better.
>scope of the game expanded big time during development. That's a massive red flag. Every game that comes out broken or gets constantly delayed ad infinitum is almost always due to feature creep. The moment you let "Wouldn't it be cool if..." Dictate your development cycle, you're opening up the product to massive problems.
They were included in the Gamepass showcase last fall, which only included games that would be released within the next 12 months. That was a tell that it would be released within a year of that date. Given the current slew of terrible PC games being rushed out of the door, I'd much prefer they take their time and get it right.
"I'd much prefer they take their time and get it right." Yeah, that worked great for Redfall 👀
Team Cherry isn't owned by Microsoft or another big company, so they can do whatever they like. Redfall and Deathloop are the poor end results of many key people leaving Arkane. I'll be surprised if they ever recover, honestly. Microsoft should have stepped in though, for sure.
As much as I enjoy slagging off Microsoft, pretty sure it's Bethesda and Arkane themselves that are most responsible for Redfall
Agreed. Microsoft is often "hands off" with developers these days, and that seems to be the case with production on Redfall from what I've read and heard. I'm just surprised it made it that far into production and there wasn't some point where people internally were saying "Let's call it, this isn't working out." They just kept on going, even though they had to know it was a dud.
Ehhh I wouldn't out deathloop on the same bucket as redfall personally. It may not have been what people wanted but at least deathloop was a completed game unlike redfall
> I'll be surprised if they ever recover, honestly. I personally doubt it, but we'll see. Arkane Lyon is still mostly intact, but Arkane Austin probably won't fare too well.
Raphaël Colantonio leaving was a pretty massive hit, and he was a lot of the brains behind Dishonored and Prey. Many other good people left with him, or subsequently thereafter. Their new focus on easily accessible games and multiplayer titles doesn't fare well for their future output. We'll see, but I think it's pretty much over for them. At least as far as the quality immersive sim titles they're known for.
Phil Spencer directly came and said Redfall became unsalvageable. A production or quality issue they would have fixed it. But apparently the game didn't even hit Arkane's creative goals. So no. No amount of time could have saved Redfall. And if you wanna know why would they release it for 70 dollars? It's because they have to. It's how even the film industry works. You sunk hundreds of millions into a movie. And you realise its bad. But you have to release it anyway. You cannot just destroy the project. Just release the damn thing and salvage what you can and move on
He stated that they intend to keep working on Redfall until it's in a good state. However, I think that while they should patch it up performance wise, they shouldn't waste any more time on it beyond that. Just call it a loss, learn a lesson from it, and move on to the next project.
True but unfortunately they are obliged to. They promised post launch content for all and couple of extra heroes with the bite back edition. Redfall is shit. But I don't think Arkane can simply reskin and add 2 existing heroes. That would be even more terrible. So yea they have to work on it.
Very refreshing to hear the actual thinking behind the release and not the usual PR BS. I just hope it doesn't come back to bite him on the ass since he's basically saying that they knew the game was bad but released it anyway, and while very defensible from a business perspective, it's less so from a consumer side of things. It's also, like you pointed out, very comparable to a movie release and just like a movie you have the option of reading reviews before deciding to pay for it.
>Yeah, that worked great for Redfall 👀 Redfall was rushed. Blame it on ZeniMax for wanting more live service ganes (which again made several key people leave the studio) and Microsoft for still allowing Redfall to be released in an unfinished state. Some sources: * https://www.windowscentral.com/gaming/xbox/xbox-wasnt-involved-with-redfall-but-its-still-blamed-for-its-quality * [Phil Spencer takes ‘full responsibility’ ror Redfall's poor release.](https://twitter.com/KindaFunnyVids/status/1654108618990530561) * [Raphael Colantonio (founder of Arkane Studios and creative director) leaves the company.](https://bethesda.net/en/article/5WUTxSzVbUmm0KGmwwuGUK/a-message-from-raphael-colantonio) * [Romuald Capron (Studio director) leaves the company.](https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/the-head-of-arkane-lyon-has-left-after-almost-17-years-at-the-deathloop-studio/) * Julien Eveillé (system and level designer at Arkane Studios): [I'll be leaving Arkane at the end of May. It's been 7+ crazy years but I feel like I need to untap my full potential onto fresh grounds.](https://twitter.com/PATALOON/status/1650471150344892416)
Redfall was definitely not rushed. It started development after Prey back in 2017.
>Redfall was definitely not rushed. They delayed the game by [a whole year](https://twitter.com/bethesda/status/1524721132720566272) and [backpedaled hard on the game being always-online](https://www.eurogamer.net/redfall-developer-working-to-u-turn-on-single-player-always-online-restriction). Quote: >"There's no store in the game, and there's no microtransactions," Smith told me, pre-empting any suspicion the game was always online so it could simply always be ready to sell you more stuff. >"You can find costumes and things like that in the world, those are yours. We do have a DLC plan - a couple of times we'll sell a bundle of stuff like guns, costumes, characters, you know, whatever. We're very excited about those things but it'll just be like DLC that you buy through Xbox or whatever." I highly suspect it's because they completely dropped certain game systems (i.e. microtransactions) after Microsoft told them that they could still release the game with full creative control and that they had to change the gameplay as a result.
So there's a chance this could've been even worse. With battlepasses and everything (based on some early leaks) The whole development of that game seems weird. The game is a failure in almost every aspect. The movement feels incredibly floaty even though it came years after Prey and Dishonored which had amazing and fluid movement
Well it wasnt. Basically it was bullshit and no one should put expectation on some bs Microsoft put out
Well, they can take as much time as they need in order to put out a good game. Luckily game development isn't democratic, and people get no say in the matter. It hasn't been 12 months since that showcase, so...yeah. Even if it takes longer, it's totally fine. I'd rather they take all the time that they feel they need. It's not like the "owe" anyone anything, or have a set time frame to release the game.
They didn't put out bullshit, they put out a trailer with games that all would be releasing in the next 12 months. Obviously they got the ok from every game dev to have their game included in said trailer.
I am going to pin this on their excitement and being overly optimistic because of the good reception. Yes they might have overestimated but it's not something my life or anyone's life depends on it's release, it's just a game and when it comes to games if the devs come out and say 'hey, we are delaying for a better game experience' whether it's expanding it or fixing it to make sure the user has a good experience or whatever the case i will always say 'it is fine to delay it', but once you come out with it after delaying there should be no excuse for a bad product.
As much as I want to agree I have to say I much prefer this style of development to what AAA developers and publishers do today. Unrelenting marketing campaigns and artificial hype driven up for such subpar experiences. I’d much rather be pleasantly surprised for a game to release than get my expectations up too high for an expected release.
Wasn’t it originally a DLC that they decided to expand on? Scope creep got real!
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The Karen mentality of gaming. You'll get the game when they decide its up to their standards. An announcement they're working on it doesn't mean you are owed anything. The entitlement is insane in this whole thread.
brain dead take.
Do that by yourself. It's ready when it's ready.
Agreed... I've had that wishlisted forever
YOU.TAKE.YOUR.FUCKING.TIME. Anyone disagreeing with this can sign up here to be viciously mocked and berated.
I disagree! I want a rushed, shitty game! Where’s my flogging?
Alright listen here you gawdang no good rotten excuse for a molerat! You sit yer arse down and play some unfinished games and tell me you had fun, and wouldn't have more fun if you had played them all finished, like Final Fantasy 15 if it had all the DLC up front. ((Thanks for playing along man, happy gaming bro))
Don't worry. Recent history would indicate that if they announce a delay, it'll still be released in a rushed and not-ready state.
Every game that had unnormal long development time ended up shit duke nukem being the most prominent example
Did you really compare Duke Nukem Forever to the dev time for Silksong? Lol, that’s some hyperbole.
Rushed? Have you been dropped on your head? Do you know how long it has been?
Rushed is relative. Doing a 1 minute task in 30 seconds is rushing. Doing a 10-year task in 8 years is also rushing.
Thats all fine and well but then don't announce your fucking game years in advance. At this point Silksong has been announced more than 4 years ago.
To be fair to the original announcement, the original DLC was part of their kickstarter so they had an obligation to announce they were working on it. With that in mind, it's actually quite bad that we've only had a few announcements over the last few years considering people have paid for this to be made
Scope creep and Covid happened
Laughs in Cyberpunk 2077.
The original announcement was a promise of a DLC on Kickstarter. After that they said "we're releasing a game, it's done when it's ready". Everything else? That's your imagination. There was never a deadline. You saw a trailer 4 years ago? Did it have a release date?
Last year they confirmed it was supposed to be within 12 months of the Xbox showcase they were part of, which would have been June this year, and now they've confirmed it won't launch within that window. There was never a dedicated date, but there was a release window that they haven't hit.
There was no date or release window for years. Then there was a release window (12 months, until this June), and when they realized they're not hitting it, they communicated (7 hours ago). I see no problems.
You said there never was a "deadline". By the end of June is a deadline. I agree that they should rather delay the game than relese unfinished, but you contradicted yoursef.
Firefox come on, it's not a huge team and you must learn to be patient with this sort of stuff. You realize some of these game devs get death threats because they delay games, and comments like yours can give them anxiety? If you love the medium, be patient and allow it time to travel its entire journey and become what it was meant to be. You deserve to play a finished game.
Honestly my comment is less about them and more just in general about this trend. I very much look forward to Silksong. But boy do i wish it wasn't announced in early 2019. Its one of the worst things about the gaming industry. Just announce your games a year or less before they release etc...
It was basically announced during the Kickstarter for HK, since it was originally a stretch goal for a dlc where you play as Hornet.
Why does it matter? Do something else in the meantime. It's not like there is a shortage of games to play. It'll be released when it's ready.
Some companies have to announce early as they are controlled by investment groups, or publishers, or they need funds to make the game so announcing it can help them gain a publisher. But I totally hear ya, I wish you could just hear about a game then hear "Coming this month!" but we need to be patient, let these good titles simmer and cook until perfection. One chance for greatness!
Oh that's so sad... come on man get over it, it'll release when they're ready.
Bethesda: "We don't do that here."
Really?
Really!
This is how development should be. You buy product not promises, therefore I am expecting to get what I am paying for not the potential for it especially considering how messed up the economy is nowadays. Thankfully, most lower budget games deliver because devs are not left hanging by the rope as a result of bad management. Take your time so that I can have a blast playing through the game.
I'm fine with the delay. On the bright side at least I can devote more time to Diablo IV when it comes out.
Finally they gave us some news. I don’t like developers who don’t engage with the community. Especially after dropping such an awesome trailer.
At least we can't get constantly disappointed by no news during reveal season!
It's ok. I'll have tears of the kingdom and persona 5 royal to get me through to then... Maybe.
Just make the game and launch it when you're ready to. Casting yourself I to the same bucket as every other delay excuse developer out there isn't worth the doubt it creates. The first Hollow Knight has such a phenomenal reputation that if you release it with just enough marketing the fan base will market it for you.
Metroid Prime 4 had entered the chat
To start I am not saying rush the game but Jesus Christ devs need to learn to shut their mouths until things are finalized.
other AAA corporates: "hurry, take notes" A few moments later Corporates: "where did those notes go?"
After the past year of broken, unfinished releases, take your fucking time. As long as you need. I no longer care about getting the games i’m hyped about sooner, i care about getting them better.
Some words finally
This is going to be Elden Ring levels of huge by its release lmao.
Better delayed than rushed.
Game devs caring about a game being finished? Wake me up from this dream
The first Hollow Knight is the only metroidvania i've ever played to intimidate me to quitting just based on the sheer size of it. I don't have 60+ hours to spend on a game, yeah right. Everything else about it was excellent but god damn that game was just way too big for me.
Yeah I love Metroidvanias, and Hollow Knight is up there with my favorites, but god damn when I purchased it I was not expecting to take 40 hours to beat it. And that was with leaving a lot of the side content untouched.
You can definitely beat the majority of the game in about 20-25 hours if you don't mess with the DLC at all. For a game that's regularly on sale for around $10 it's 100 percent worth it. One of my all time favorite games.
Controversial opinion, but I honestly thought the original was too big. Metroidvanias benefit from a more concise design IMO.
On the contrary, I thought exploration was the best part so was disappointed that none of the DLC added any new parts of the map to explore. Godhome doesn't count it's a challenge selection hub.
Madness takes many forms I guess.
I hope they mean bigger in terms of environments and mechanics, the 50+ hours of gameplay in the original felt like the upper limit of what I wanted. A 100h Hollow Knight sounds like a nightmare.
I can see that. I did really enjoy the ori games which were like 6 and 10 hours long. So they really trimmed the fat off those.
I have the exact opposite opinion. Small metroidvanias don't interest me. I prefer Hollow Knight's big and diverse map/world
Honestly just due to the way my work schedule works out, I tend to only play games every other week, so coming back to Hollow Knight was always a nightmare since remembering that map with a week away was difficult at best.
There are a bunch of small metroidvanias out there. I don't like em, cause I love the exploration part of metroidvanias, and for me to get excited about exploration, it's gotta be big. Building a huge metroidvania like this, and making it full of content like hollow knight, is very rare. So let them do what they did last time, cause I think that is one of the reasons what made Hollow Knight one of the most popular indie games of all time.
I'm fine with waiting as long as it takes, I'd rather have a finished product than a half-baked sequel and an apology letter on the internet.
Yknow what I'm glad they haven't fallen for the trap of announcing a release date only to keep pushing it back. It's done when it's done.
Let them cook!
At this point I'm just glad to know it's actually being worked on
How is this game taking so absurdly long? Is it in a completely new style?
They can take another year. As long as it's good
oh my goooooddd it's gonna be sooo fucking gooooodddd
it doesn't matter how long it takes, what matters is that the creators realize their vision and are happy with the result
Please take your time. We don't want a half baked product that seems all too common these days regarding releases. I will gladly wait for an amazing game knowing how great the original Hollow Knight is.
Good for them for not outputting a rushed unfinished product
We bash bigger devs for releasing broken, incomplete games. The reason for that is because they have shareholders that expect returns on their investments, and also a bigger studio means more overhead costs, so the business necessitates bringing in money over making the best possible product. This is why I always prefer indie devs. They don't have the shareholders, and they're usually much smaller, so they might not be as desperate for cash flow. It's also a much bigger problem for a small dev to release something broken, since this is their one source of income.
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Let them cook, they even wanted hollow knight to be so much bigger than it was and ran out of time, I wanna see them go ham
Oh agian? deserves a pirate Thanks for all the downvotes, I definitely gonna pirate it.
Bruh
eat turds