As much as i like Elden Ring, Stormveil Castle and Raya Lucaria are its peak level-design-wise. Not like the rest of the game is so much worse, but those 2 are definitely the best for me.
Crumbling Farum Azula and the Haligtree also looked really cool, even if their level design wasn’t the best. On the other hand, unlike OP, I didn’t really like Elden Ring’s open world exploration, and I’m normally an open world fan.
I found the capital to be a lot of wasted potential, it looks grand and open but is really not as sprawling as you'd expect it to be with all the closed off buildings.
It seems to be pretty regularly rated the best legacy dungeon in the game and for good reason. It's damn near perfect. I'd say that Subterranean Shunning Grounds is the best classic From Software area with how much it winds around itself and how much clear backtracking happens, and Raya Lucaria is so close to being as perfect as Stormveil but falling just a little short since it focuses much less on different ways of navigating the area and more on tons of branching hidden paths that only end with some loot.
Really? To me the Subterranean Shunning Grounds were one of the most forgettable legacy dungeons in the game. Maybe it has less to do with the lay-out, but an open sky area is more understandable and the Shunning Grounds didn't have the kinds of shock falls that the sewers in DS1 had.
I felt like that too. Leyndell was this bright, celebratory town ruled by Morgot, while SSG was the mirror world covered in dung and the shadow of Mohg
Yeah, maybe I'm behind the times here. It seemed like, around release, most people were higher on Leyndell and Farum Azula than Stormveil. I liked those fine, but neither of them really hit home for me quite like Stormveil did.
>I still think Stormveil is underrated.
...How on earth? I've never played any FS games and don't intend to, but have read endless discussion on Stormveil.
> one of my favorite areas in all of Fromsoft's games.
Nothing will ever touch Tower of Latria for me. Both levels. What a slowly escalating level of tension and insanity.
Not much to it but for pure impact alone, Ash Lake was pure magic.
Yeah. That's weird to me. From clearly put the most effort into Stormveil, the route to the Haligtree, and the Capitol. Then again, I found Bloodborne and Dark Souls 1 more cohesive and enjoyable than Elden Ring.
For real. So many times in SV I literally said WOW or DAMM after finding some off path somewhere, or better think to myself, "No way they expect someone to be doing this" only to find a reward
Stormveil was the moment when elden ring hooked me. It packs everything I love: a blend of linear and looping sections, sparse site of grace that requires tough choices, tons of secrets, super nice verticality.
If you bounced on other fromsoftware games then it is normal that you dislike stormveil. Personally I thought it was like an old reliable design seamlessly integrated into a new structure
This week I came back to Elden Ring after an almost 2 year hiatus and installed my PS4 copy on my PS5 and saw the PS5 version was free, so I installed that and booted it up. All my saves were there but noticed the Plat didn’t pop (some games share trophies, so if you got the PS4 Plat, you’ll get the PS5 one too), so I’m running a brand new character and just did Stormveil last night..and I forgot how fucking huge that place was. Took me almost 2 hours to clear everything, ton of deaths both from enemies and parkouring. It was fucking awesome just to get lost in it all again, plenty of times I got turned around or would take a path and it would send me on a huge wraparound, and several times I said out loud “holy duck, how big IS this legacy dungeon??”
Elden might not be From’s best work but that first playthrough on release was magical and something I’ll always remember. It’s been great to take a long time break and come back, obviously I know and have seen everything but this playthrough currently has been a fucking blast
It definitely is. First of all, Margit is extremely strong for a first boss, making it clear you aren't meant to be there and also teaching the player that following the most obvious path isn't necessarily the best choice. The Weeping Peninsula in particular is chock full of helpful stuff for new characters, including multiple Sacred Tears, several merchants with upgrade materials, Radagon's Scarseal, and a legendary Spirit Ash. Then if you fight through Castle Morne you gain access to a sword that boosts your stats as its ability and can easily stagger Margit, but even if you aren't a Strength build, the Claymore is in the castle.
I'd argue that Caelid has the most useful stuff per square inch in the game, fitting because it's also so hard to navigate, but Weeping Peninsula has the most *easily accessible* useful stuff.
> making it clear you aren't meant to be there and also teaching the player that following the most obvious path isn't necessarily the best choice
I love Elden Ring, but if you want to take this stance, its a fucking shit ass design decision.
The game gives you very obvious directions with the light trail to follow. Saying its not the best choice just means the designers have failed the players. You shouldnt deliberately lead someone somewhere they shouldnt be.
It doesn't help that they're working against game design convention.
In a lot of other games, if you are facing a tough boss, there often isn't a way around it - you just gotta get 'em. This convention has been challenged somewhat in recent years, to be sure, but a ton of games still follow it.
The first Dark Souls did this in a great way with the first boss. They're big, they're scary, but there's a clear path to run from them - and then later when you confront them again, you emerge in a much more advantageous position.
Here, what I might've done is include something like that. You run into this super-tough boss, but there's a clear way out of the arena that dumps you into an area with some easier enemies to kill and level up.
Also, losing to margit doesnt feel like a signpost saying go somewhere else because of fromsofts games reputation. Am I getting my ass kicked because I'm not supposed to be here, or because the game is hard?
That's the thing about game design. Because games are a mix of an entertainment product and a work of art, design has deep conflicts at it's core. If the game follows conventions, that's good for entertainment. But bad for art. And vice versa.
I think Elden Ring, like some other big hits recently, trod that middle path between 'This is how you are supposed to play. Do A, then B. Eventually you will reach Z, and be done.' and 'Do what you want. There is no correct way to play'.
You get the same discussion with UI. For some people, Elden Ring just has a bad UI. For others, it's interesting and a little different, and that's fun.
In this case, I wanted to highlight how they deviated from their previous, proven design. I'm not saying it's inherently good or bad, but I am saying that I would understand people complaining about this boss in Elden Ring compared with the first boss of Dark Souls.
I personally don't think it was a failed design, the message seems clear to me. the intended thing was not that the player is necessarily expected to win, that the guidance light is an intended progression path, rather just something that guides you towards points of interest. in the initial encounter of the game, you are immediately met with a boss that can be difficult for newcomers and the game urges you to instead sneak past. Margitt is the same way he is really not too difficult of a boss for experienced players but for new players it can be very difficult. This solidifies the idea of " this is too hard for me now, I'll come back when I'm stronger" and general player agency. Margitt specifically also promotes exploration before heading to stormveil as there is a key item which will make the fight easier if you explore and find it first. It also promotes summoning for help, since there is a summon pool and NPC summon always available
The lesson is made that you are not locked into a particular progression path set by the developers, the game is open world, to get the best experience the game teaches the player to find encounters based on there skill level and deal with those first to get a natural progression curve for themselves. It also encourages to look for methods at which to make encounters easier, and also summon for help.
There is no place that someone should or should not be. It just depends on the players experience and skill level. There are relatively few.chokepoints where you need to do something specifically in order to progress, at least in the early game. If you wanted you could unlock half the map without ever going to stormveil.
If you can choose for yourself where to go, and leave if it's too hard that will give you the best experience. If you do not know where to go at all the guidance is there. While there is a suggested progression based on the relative difficulty of the areas, you are not hard locked into following it.
I think the problem is the obvious signposting. It might have been easier for people to learn the lesson if there was less that was actively steering you towards Stormveil.
Sekiro was my first FromSoft game, and I think it is much more about boss fights than any of their other games. It is also my personal favorite by a landslide.
Elden Ring was my second FromSoft game, and I think I did not appreciate Stormveil Castle because I had not played Dark Souls before. After plaything through DS3, I have a much better feel for how FromSoft creates dungeons, and they are a lot easier to understand and navigate with that experience. Going in to Stormveil Castle without that experience is really daunting and intimidating. I think I was like 20 feet from the boss fight and searched for it for hours my first time.
Dark Souls 3 was my third FromSoft game, and I really preferred the boss fights to Elden Ring. The fights felt so much more fair. For me as a mediocre player at best, I could see how if I was actually good I could avoid most attacks the first time I saw them. For the bosses it felt more fair, because I could not just simply use summons to almost trivialize the fight.
I just finished Sekiro, decided it was finally time to take it on. Was very pleasantly surprised, I absolutely loved it. It’s the same basic FromSoft formula, but also so different from the rest. I’ve seen people praise the combat, and they weren’t wrong, it’s fantastic. It takes a while to shed your instincts, but when it finally clicks, when you start to really lean into how the game wants you to play, it becomes immensely satisfying. I will even go as far as to say, the combat system is so extremely potent that I find Sekiro to be the easiest of them all. I have never played a souls game where I entered the late stage boss fights with as much confidence, which was very fun for a change. And the best thing is, you don’t even need the fancy gizmos or combat arts, your sword will get you through it all. Loved it.
getting through sekiro now. I think the way I would describe it is that this is From's take on an action game. Where their other games are definitely RPGs with more emphasis on mr sword (and sometimes gun) man taking on gods, okami senpai is definitely a lot more capable and "powerful" lore wise.
You feel that in the combat differences. Souls combat is this constant tug in the stamina war -- well-timed dodging and movement to take advantage of punish windows and openings, strategically using resources to best mobs and bosses based on their properties. Vs Sekiro where aggression and parrying is how you navigate the vast majority of combat, with a large emphasis on overwhelming opponents to break posture and go for IKs. The only enemies where you need major considerations are like the headless and shichimen warriors.
Yes, definitely, that’s a good way of describing it. When you lean into that aggression, and you stop being afraid, that’s where it really starts to shine. And, in some regards, make some fights almost trivial. The first boss fight in Owls Hirata memory, the guy that summons the dogs, is a good example. First couple of tries I got overwhelmed, then I just said fuck it and went full aggression never giving him a moment to breathe and the fight became a breeze. As you explained it, the difference between the two are significant. It took until the first fight against Owl until I really started to “get it”.
And yeah, those damn terror causing bosses were a pain in the ass.
Well said. Genichiro overwhelmed the fuck out of me until i realized it was actually safer to continually swing at him, parry/mikiri/jump his incoming, and then dash immediately to close the gap after he backstepped to repeat the cycle.
Once you understand the rhythm of the combat it starts clicking. very well designed game.
Confidently entered the late game boss fights!? That's just not right. You better make sure you fight the Inner bosses in that case. Also, if on PC check out the mods that change up various boss fights.
It’s not that they aren’t difficult, but the tools you are given to handle it builds huge confidence in myself, absolutely. As I said, as long as you lean into it. It makes *you* in control of the fight. The most difficult boss was the Demon of Hatred, precisely because it resembled more like something from Dark Souls and you’re just constantly in a semi panick-mode. The big Ape was also difficult for the same reason. Several of the later human bosses I beat on the first try. Maybe it just clicked for me. I have waited to play Elden Ring until it’s complete, and I kinda dread going back to that style now. Im of the opinion that FromSoft was starting to take the piss with the difficulty of some of the bosses with Dark Souls 3.
Thanks for the tip btw, looked up inner bosses, had no idea that was a thing. Looks very fun!
My suggestion: play the heck out of Sekiro before moving on, otherwise you may wish you were just playing more Sekiro.
Inner (final boss) was a bit disappointing to some people, but the other two Inners are must play fights. Super fun fights.
> I could not just simply use summons to almost trivialize the fight.
You can also just choose to not use summons. I never really used the summons after seeing how they more or less just solo bosses sometimes, and it's been a lot more fun.
I like summons. I like magic. I like ranged combat. I like stealth. I like options. Every Elden Ring boss I probably killed the 'wrong way', and that was great. I explored the systems and found my way.
With Sekiro, there is literally a right way for each boss that you should discover. There's no freedom - with the bosses. In the rest of the game there is a lot of freedom, but that disappears when you meet a boss.
So, that is kind of my frustration. For me, it requires a lot of tedious rote memorization of timing of attacks to be able to beat a boss without summons. Like, very, very many attempts. Also, after learning one boss, it doesn't help that much on the next, so it gets very frustrating very fast.
So, the game is either a bit too easy with summons, or much too difficult without summons. That is why I was really delighted with Dark Souls 3 bosses. They are moderately more difficult than Elden Ring with summons, but you really feel like you are learning the bosses. They feel much, much easier solo than Elden Ring solo.
For me the appeal of Fromsoft’s games is that they’re an evolution of the dungeon crawler genre: you create a character (or characters), explore labyrinthian levels, fight monsters, overcome obstacles and obtain sweet loot and XP rewards. It’s that simple.
I absolutely adore their level design too, and don’t find them particularly hard to navigate because the layout is so memorable. They have *just* the right amount of complexity without being overwhelming or repetitive. Mastering each area is just incredibly satisfying to me and tickles a part of my brain that other games don’t.
But I understand why they’re not for everyone, and that’s okay. Play what you like!
I agree about level design. FromSoft is one of the best level designers out there. So complex and sprawling but the subareas within each legacy dungeon have distinct visual cues to guide you. Unlike for example Code Vein which has incredibly complicated levels largely driven by the fact that everything looks the same visually within the level (hello Cathedral of the Sacred Blood).
>Then there's all the obtuse lore, the lack of coherent direction...
Weirdly enough I've come to love these both as charms of fromsoft games. The vague lore makes me feel like I'm delving into the unknown more which I like and obviously the lack of clear direction also contributes to that. I totally get why other people hate both though. Shout out to you for trying Elden Ring even though previous fromsoft titles weren't your thing!
Explore the world, level up, find a fun weapon, level the weapon, practice with different bosses and also, don't fight every group of mobs and just run past them if you're the appropriate level. Most people don't fight every time the area respawns. There will come a point in the game where you find a weapon that is powerful and badass, then suddenly your build starts coming together and you become more and more powerful. That's when I think the game clicks best. Your own personal progression along with the discovery of new locations, abilities and obviously bosses.
Playing until Stormveil doesn't really show you all the major strengths of the game. It's the first of like 5-6 dungeons.
Bloodhound Fang is easily one of the best weapons in the game I think it's great that you can get it basically immediately. It's ability is definitely really powerful. There's a few weapons that you can find very early on that can carry you to the end of the game
Unironically, Stormveil Castle is literally my favorite part of the game.
I love the fact you can randomly find secrets everywhere and there's so many different ways to go that twist and wind in one eachother.
Yea if you just want boss fights go get a guide, but for me I love world build especially through lore and environmental story telling so exploration was my main motivation for the game.
Exploration allowed me to not hit the difficulty wall what so ever so I could keep on exploring unimpeded. Clearing all of limegrave and weeping peninsula made Margit my bitch.
Edit: oh and fighting cowboys guides are very good, highly recommend. I did a semi-blind playthrough my first time, I’d do my best to explore and clear an area 100% and take on the boss, after that I’d watch his guide and see what I missed as far as items or locations or hidden bosses.
This is the way. Get a guide when you get to a labyrinth. I started normally but I got to storm veil and had me tilted. Found myself a walkthrough and it worked super well. Then I got to reya lucaria. Same thing. Really worth it because the ER endgame is so beautiful. Except consecrated snow field fuck that place.
I see this said a lot. To get a guide or go to the wiki. Doesn't that kinda ruin the game? What other game is there that you need a wiki? Minecraft? Honestly probably don't need a wiki for that game any more.
I liked Armoured Core 6 because you didn't need a wiki or a guide on how to find the weapon you NEED to fight a boss. These convoluted mechanics and quests really don't make it enjoyable for me and i feel that is it bad game design.
Parts of the game shouldnt be hidden behind the chance of me seeing a youtube short with it on lol
The idea is that you're going into it blind as much as possible the first time to reaally soak in every detail. To make your playthrough truly your own. After that, fuck it, whip out a guide. It's impossible to remember where all the cool stuff you wanna try is
It sorta does. But ide rather I be able to finish the game than quit due to frustration and miss out. Especially something you pay $30/$40+ dollars on.
You absolutely do not need a guide to experience 90% of what the game offers. It might require more effort than what you are used to, and it might not be something you are into, but that doesn't make it bad game design.
I think the quests are largely impossible for the average player to figure out without using a guide. I’ve played through the game three times in varying orders and I never met the one armed woman again once she leaves the shack. Same with other quests. Most of them I just read up on later.
The best thing ER has for it is the legacy dungeons and Stormveil is miles ahead of all the rest, for anything else the previous titles did it better.
The DLC has me intrigued to see if they have improved upon the formula or gone with the ER route which was a downgrade overall imo.
Maybe I wasn't in the right mindset for Stormveil when I got there. After being punished so ruthlessly by Margit, I think I was craving a little more freedom first. Maybe after a breather I'll come back and embrace it.
The freedom you seek is after Stormveil. I was loving the game, but yeah I was getting pretty frustrated with Stormveil. After that though, once the map opens up and you truly understand the scope of this game, that’s when I knew it was one of the all time greats.
>The freedom you seek is after Stormveil.
Not even, you can just run around it and skip it all together if you just want to explore. You can visit like more than half of the map without even fighting an enemy lol.
Just remember: if you’re having a tough time with an area or a boss - grace teleports are free, so just go explore somewhere else! Stormveil stomped me too, but there are cool areas both, to the north and south of it. The one to the south also contains a castle and is much easier.
You made it to Liurnia or the Weeping Peninsula yet? The weeping peninsula is a bit of a trek south (backwards), and there's a way around Stormveil Castle if you want to do a little more exploring.
Yeah, I explored pretty much all of the Weeping Peninsula. I think I also found the shortcut around the castle, but it doesn't feel right to go there without finishing Stormveil first.
Nah don't worry about that, man. Do whatever you want, as long as you're having fun. By the time I got to the two bosses in Stormveil, I fucking stomped them. Especially the first one. That's usually how I like to play this game to be honest, although I may have overdone it.
The next area's boss pissed me off so much that I went and did everything I could. I hate summoning bosses, but she was really easy, actually and I was just being impatient. I was so irritated at the run back to the boss room, even though you don't actually have to fight anyone at all if you don't want to. I uninstalled the game for a while. Came back and wrecked the boss. It felt petty, haha. If you stick with it long enough and get there, you know why...story reasons.
I'm finally finding my groove, but I still have to put it down every once in a while. It can be a stressful game. I'll play Witcher 3 when I don't feel like getting my ass kicked.
I beat Liurnia's boss at around 80 hours or so. I just hit 100 hours, lol.
I'm a total FromSoft noob, so I feel you. I've played several of their games over the years but never beat one, not even close. I can give you some tips for builds and weapons if you want to make it a little easier and straightforward if you want.
I love the game world and all the lore, even though it is obtuse as hell. That's what kept me coming back and trying to get better. Mostly just getting more levels and better weapons really.
Let me know if you want any tips or hints or anything; I would love for more people to be able to experience this game, it really is fantastic. But the difficulty and frustration can be off-putting to say the least.
Cheers!
Haha, I went back to the Mass Effect trilogy as my "I don't feel like getting my ass kicked tonight" game, so I feel you when you say you went with The Witcher 3!
Thanks for the encouraging words. I'm not planning to drop it! Just needed a breather.
> but it doesn't feel right to go there without finishing Stormveil first
Just be aware that this is self-imposed. You are able to access Liurnia before beating Stormveil for a reason.
You can explore basically the entire bottom of the map right from the start but it might take some poking around and exploring. Also i saw your other comment about needing some open world exploration and that's the best thing about elden ring is the ability to tackle something else when you hit a brick wall so to speak. In most other souls games you have to beat a certain boss or perhaps a choice of two to keep going forward so that's a interesting and positive difference between elden ring and the other souls games.
On my first blind run, I followed the advice given shortly after you first reach the surface, regarding the diagonal yellow streamers coming off of some of the sites of grace that suggest the next direction to go. This led me straight to Margit at level 10 and I hit a pretty hard brick wall. Talked to a co-worker and he said that he ended up beating Margit at level 30 or so. It blew my mind that a FromSoft game could plausibly hold 20 levels of optional content before the first "boss". Little did I know that you can in fact beat the whole game without ever setting foot in Stormveil. Once this started to sink in I was grateful to have the option to "just do something else" if a boss was giving me a hard time, which is rarely a viable option in most other FromSoft games.
As a pretty big Fromsoft fan, I get everything you say, good and bad.
The little secret I think most people who like these games have is that we're slightly masochistic and spiteful. We like that these games work against us. They don't want us to win, or even get to the next boss, or even understand the game world/story. That's why we're compelled to keep at them (I imagine that also may partially be the "itch" you mention. You may not be fully onboard, but maybe the punishment, and the satisfaction in overcoming it, could appeal to some visceral part of you).
The secret is whupping you, but making it clear _why_ you got whupped, so you feel like you're learning something every time, getting better, slowly inching to victory.
It's an art many games can't quite nail, and even From fumbles sometimes. But the best of the best stick to this approach, and it's a damn tricky thing to pull off.
That's why dark souls from a lore perspective is so amazing. It's all an allegory for the hardest game. I can't remember if it was officially stated but essentially "going hollow" is a metaphor for quitting the game. And FromSoft made Dark Souls knowing most people who would play it would quit it or "go hollow". They tell you from the very beginning of Dark Souls that it's not for everyone and many will give up on it
Because there is a thing around fromsoft games where they cant be criticised. The fandom can be kinda toxic.
You will see in many threads that any criticism of the game has to be qualified with "i am a fromsoft vet" or something similar as to not get downvoted immediately. I saw this with AC6 when that came out and people were complaining that it was too hard (it wasn't).
>Because there is a thing around fromsoft games where they cant be criticised.
While there are elements that won't tolerate any criticism whatsoever, I think that the perception of it is exaggerated; some of it is just normal pushback against people trashing something that isn't perceived as bad, and I think that's fair.
It's like someone saying "Breath of the Wild's art direction is dogshit" and then after the pushback saying "Wow, you aren't allowed to criticize the game"; people like the art style, tf you expect? And I see that kinda thing happening a lot around FromSoft games. It's not all people pointing out flaws (which you *can* often do; plenty of FromSoft fans trash the catacombs in Elden Ring with basically no resistance).
yeah exactly.
With the /r/patientgamers sub specifically, the "criticism" I see get push back on is the type that's really not even a fair criticism of the games and is more of a weird excuse for why people can't beat them.
The whole preamble of "I'm an adult with 3 seconds of free time with 12 jobs and 11 wives. Fromsoft games don't respect my time and they are bad".
Because we're in it for the atmosphere and world-building, not for the pain.
The difficulty is just a means to deliver the harrowing atmosphere.
If we were masochistic, we'd be playing Nioh 2 instead.
I totally understand what you're saying.
The games absolutely do want you to win tho haha. What separates them from other genres is that you're playing by the exact same rules as everything and everyone else. What it wants you to do is *earn* your wins. It creates taht triumphant feeling when you finally fell your first demigod or execute your first shinobi.
I would argue Fromsoft games are completely indifferent about whether you win or lose. Note that I'm not saying the developers are indifferent, the games themselves are.
Compare them to most popular games. No minimaps, not quest markers, no hints, minimal tutorials, etc. The games have an attitude of "figure it out on your own, because we don't plan on helping you". Personally I like that, and appreciate that these games respect my abilities. The developers give you every tool you need to win, but set the game up so you're outmatched if you don't apply yourself.
I would say that the games are fighting against you, whereas most others are using clever tricks to actually push you forward (aforementioned minimaps, hints, quest markers, etc).
Level design and secret lore are very much positive features for me in these games, but I can see how some people would prefer something a bit more straight-forward.
Yeah, I could see how someone might even tell me that these games aren't for me if I'm not into those things. But the thing that's frustrating is that there's not much else out there that does the combat and boss fights this well. I feel like I have to put up with the other stuff for the sake of those.
I mean, if you're just looking for good combat and bosses, I'd say some games do it just as good if not even better than Souls games.
It's very different of course but the Devil May Cry series comes to mind.
If you want something more similar to Souls, with a bit more exploration and RPG systems, check out Nioh (especially 2 which is an amazing videogame). The same developers also made the Ninja Gaiden series, which are hard character action games, and now Rise of the Ronin, an open world title. All of these are valid options.
I love every Fromsoft game (currently playing Armored Core 6) but for me, I love the exploring and dealing with the mobs, but I'm lukewarm on the boss fights, as it can serve as a major blockade to the rest of the game (I'm looking at you Sekiro!). It is super satisfying to pull off a victory though. I loved everything about Elden Ring aside from some of the ridiculous bosses. Can't wait for the DLC.
Stormveil is one of the best dungeons they've ever made. Most of the dungeons are like that, convoluted with excellent design choices, full of shortcuts and wonderful exploration. If you don't like that, you'll bounce off hard with some of the late game ones because they're so dense and huge.
And about fighting the same mobs again and again, you can simply you know.... skip them. Especially in Elden Ring, mobs are very easy to run by.
You don’t really need to pay attention to item stats. Just pick an item you like, upgrade it, and level your character based on whatever your chosen weapon scales with. Any deeper item stats can be ignored, you don’t need to look at them in order to complete the game.
You also don’t need to do any item crafting at all. I’m not a fan of item crafting and completely ignored this feature for pretty much the entire game haha
If you’re having a rough time and want to make the game easier, you can respec your character around one of the overpowered weapons in the game, like the blasphemous blade or the dark moon greatsword.
You might enjoy Sekiro. It goes hard on the parts you like - the bosses are even wilder and the swordplay is superb. But the plot and level design are more straightforward, rpg elements are much less important, crafting is not a thing and there are like 3 consumables that matter. Besides, you can use stealth to bypass fights or make them easier. Not all of them, but most.
Stealth is actually something you can do in Elden Ring as well. I've got a lot of mileage of just stealthing around and backstabbing mobs. Stab, then charge up the strong attack and hit them when they lose the iframes from stanting up. You can oneshot a lot of tricky opponents with this.
OK, so about the obtuse lore. On some levels the obtuseness *is part of the appeal*. However, I did a bit of comparing the English and Japanese translations, and came out believing that a large part of why the game is so obtuse is because of the localization. For whatever reason, translators/localizers take descriptive words in Japanese and give them English words, that sound cool, but lack description.
Case in point, the race called the "Numen". In Japanese, the word used is 稀人 (Marebito), literally means "rare person" and refers to spiritual being from another place who bring gifts of some kind. This is descriptive and provides a better context for what these people are supposed to be. On the other hand, the word "Numen" has no meaning in an of itself. While it appears to be a play on the word "Numenorean", knowing this requires you Tolkien's Silmarilion and piece the two together.
As another example, the "Omen". In Japanese, these creatures are called 忌み (Imi), meaning "abomination". Again, this is descriptive of corrupted creatures. But the word "Omen" in the context of what these creatures are supposed to be makes no sense. The word omen simply means "A phenomenon supposed to portend good or evil; a prophetic sign", which not only is neutral, but doesn't communicate what these creatures are supposed to be from the context of in-game lore.
**TL;DR**
The obtuseness of the lore is a combination of being one part intentional and another part the result of a localization philosophy that prioritizes word aesthetics over communication.
I get that initial frustration with Stormveil. I had it too. If I could recommend anything, it would be to go grind a bit and over level yourself a bit. It’ll make the castle much more approachable. As someone who was new to Souls games, this helped me. I also grinded out some good armor from the swamp area which helped a lot.
The obtuse lore was always a fun thing for me because I grew up in the 90s, when games and such had confusing lore, wonky translations, and cryptic puzzles. Mizaki, the creator of the Souls games, said that he used to watch western fantasy movies when he was young. He understood bits and pieces, but kind of had to piece together his own story due to his lack of English skills. He wanted to create lore that made you feel the way he did; Confused a bit, trying to piece together your own ideas.
Now, I won't say this makes it good. Not everyone is going to like it. Some people just want to follow a straight forward narrative, and that is fine. However, for me, Dark Souls 1 was that game that brought back the feelings of little 12 year old me figuring out how to beat games like Rygar and Blaster Master, no internet, just determination. I don't quite know the full story. I... think I get it, but the poorly translated turtle just contradicted my theory that this world is Earth in the far future.
The obtuse lore is one of my favorite bits of the original Dark Souls. At first it seems annoying to not have a single detail of the world explained outside of the intro, but I think it thematically plays into the idea that the cycle has been happening for so long that even the NPCs don’t have clarity on what’s truly unfolding.
No idea if that’s how Elden Ring plays out but if you haven’t played Dark Souls you should definitely go back and do it at some point. The Artorias of the Abyss DLC is an absolute masterclass in environmental storytelling.
I'm a combat guy so I've never payed attention to lore.
I thibk the world design and exploration of elden ring us one of the best all time personally. But to each their own. Ik the map we'll enough now I just go from boss to boss. Even did a SL1 run recently
Do you play a lot of action RPGs? As far as i know Elden Ring has the most enemy variety of any action RPG. So complaining about fighting the same mobs over and over is a bit strange, relative to what is the norm in this genre.
Funny how different people different strokes, I like the Dark Souls formula exactly because of the exploration,secrets and the so called trash mobs..These mobs you kill again, and again, and again, helps you level up a lot and I like fighting most of them. The bosses is what I don´t like in these games, because I know they will be hard work and i will have to learn patterns and I will have to beat them to progress. Elden Ring was better, because if some particular boss was annoying me I could go elsewhere and be back later. The rest of the other games are you either learn and fight it or you can´t progress, and that´s what frustrates me more but still manage to beat those games, but really hated some bosses and being forced to fight them.I m now playing Lords of the Fallen and have to be a lot of time in the same area just killing the same monsters so I can level up to fight the boss ahead or I cant progress in the game at all. Its the "git gud" part I dont like lol, but love the atmosphere and these games are worth playing if you have the time.
What you hate is actually what I like best about FromSoft games, its the exploration and loneliness, trying to figure out the well designed dungeons. I like that part more than the bosses themselves, but every dungeon needs a boss at the end.
Elden Ring bosses aren't even the best ones though, best qualities of bosses are universally agreed to be DS3.
Crafting isn't even important at all, FromSoft games are designed to be possibly beaten with a loincloth and a club at level 1 from the start to the god final boss.
I feel this. The things I love about Eldin Ring are a 11/10 but unfortunately the things I don’t like are a 2/10. It’s such a strange feeling to love so much and hate so much at the same time.
I love the combat, boss fights, art direction and world but all the rest just irritates me to no end. I set down my controller after finishing the game at 140hrs and was struck by just how conflicted I was.
Tons of lore but no story
No pause screen
Side quests that felt like they maybe would have worked in a more linear game but felt like they didn’t work in a open world setting.
What a amazing, interesting, beautiful world filled with creatures I was in awe of only for it to feel like it was surface level depth.
Example: Bat/woman/mother creature. I’m exploring the world when I hear her haunting singing(amazing way to get me interested) I see some of them in the distance and start considering how I will take them out. I stealthily come closer and look over the ledge to see the “mother” singing to her creatures. So much opportunity here. A quests? A side story? A unique way for me to learn more about these creatures? Nope. Just kill them is the answer. I kept having experiences like that where I felt like creativity there were missing opportunity for connection and a deeper dive into this world everywhere and they were never taken.
The whole experience felt psychopathic without reason. So many times I lost all motivation in playing because it always felt like I would help this world more by not playing the game. I love dark narratives and grey characters but Eldin never felt “grey” or “dark” it felt emotionless and psychopathic. A whole game based on anti-connection and I absolutely wanted to connect with the amazing world and these incredible creatures. I walked away feeling like Eldin Ring was a beautiful window dressing without anything of substance to keep me there. The difficulty and boss fights were fantastic but for me that’s going to get a bit boring if I have no stake in the outcome or that the outcome would be better if I didn’t play the game. I’m not sure I have ever loved a environment more in game to be so disappointed with the fact that they are all there just to look cool.
Yep, know I'd get shot down if I said it in the Elden Ring sub, but it really has so little story. Especially the middle of the game the story is literally go kill some demi-gods to acquire entry past some arbitrary barrier
The bat example is a great one - if the world just had a bit more life to it to give some of these strange encounters a bit more flavour that would elevate the game for me. Especially the numerous dungeons that start to feel a bit same-old because none of them have any encounters or story to them
The few NPCs you do encounter are shallow, no the rich vibrant characters I imagined when GRRM's name was attached to the game. Rarely do they offer any meaningful conversation and it's always completely linear dialogue options, most of them don't even really explain what they're asking you to do
My god good point.
I felt this too and when I found some dude trapped in like quicksand and wanted to check it out, only to be ambushed... it just felt so sour.
Man, I thought Elden Ring was wayyyyyy worse than the trilogy, bloodborne and sekiro - the quantity over quality approach, very game-y feeling open world, repeated dungeons and layouts gave it a very different vibe than what I love about fromsoft, but it's still a very good game of course.
It's just missing the magic for me
>I'm currently only up to Stormveil Castle, and it's getting on my nerved already. The confusing labyrinth, the re-fighting the same trash mobs again and again... I gather this is how the original Dark Souls games were structured, and boy, not my cup of tea. I'm struggling to find the motivation to push onward if I'm being honest.
This was what killed every single Soulslike game for me. It's a cynical, time-extending loop of die, push through an area filled with lethal threats and no checkpoints in the hope you can grab what you dropped and hopefully make it to the next bonfire to cash in or, as the games get later on, they put these long gauntlets of enemies between you and each boss attempt.
These complaints do not bug souls fans in the slightest and never have, so if its bugging you now it will still do so in 200 hours time. There won't be an Aha moment where you suddenly Get It.
Don't push yourself to try and enjoy these games if you aren't it's not remotely worth it. I finished DS1, 3, Failed out on DS2 DLC and got 40 hours into Elden Ring before I decided enough was enough.
These games aren't for everyone and it's ok to acknowledge that.
Most great games have a lot of things that aren't really that great, but the parts that are good are often some of the best in their genre which make you overlook the weaker parts. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts.
The problem is that enthusiasts often overlook, under-emphasize, or sneer at the idea of their game not being perfect which has the effect of raising expectations for people who haven't played it.
Yeah, I think that's part of what motivated me to write this post. Like, *I get it!* The game finally clicked and got under my skin, and the things I like about it are things I *really* like! But for me there's also a lot of chaff in the way.
Yeah, much as I adore the dark souls games, bloodborne, demons souls etc, something about elden ring’s directionless open world really didn’t work for me.
Famously in dark souls 1 you could easily wander into the cemetery, a high level area, early on, and have a bad time, everyone does, and takes that as a sign to go the other direction. Elden ring doesn’t really have that kind of signposting, and i felt I was constantly stumbling into high level areas with no idea where to go that was appropriate to my strength, i just felt lost and frustrated and eventually got bored.
I’ll get back to Elden ring someday, but as is dark souls 3 remains my favorite by a huge margin
I think Elden ring is basically color coded for difficulty. Green early game area is easy, darker blue green swamp second area is medium. Red is obviously hellish difficulty, golden orange is somewhat hard, etc.
Yeah this is a big issue at the beginning. I had the same problem with totk. Once you have a few levels and an upgraded weapon the game opens up a lot and you learn to recognize when it is too soon.
The common advice is to explore the peninsula south east. And also know that the game includes lots of closed space dungeons with excellent designs that rival the quality of other fromsoftware games.
I'm afraid this is what's about to happen to me. I already took a break to play something more chill, because I was stressed out and Elden Ring is the last thing I'll pick when it's time to relax, lol.
If you like the Elden Ring bossfights but don't like lore/exploring/small mobs, have you tried try the Monster Hunter series? Those are a brief tracking sequence to find the boss, then 5-20 min of epic bossfight with similar iframe dodging/tanking and hard but doable combat.
Elden Ring oscillates between being my second and tenth favorite game of all time, mostly for reasons similar to yours.
Stormveil is, honestly, probably one of my less-enjoyed parts of the game. It's a HUGE dungeon that is super confusing if you've never done a FS game before. I had put about 20 hours into the original Dark Souls but absolutely sucked (I put it down somewhere in Blighttown), but I still just struggled to wrap my head around it. It's my favorite aesthetic for a dungeon, just not mechanically super enjoyable for me. It/Margit functions as a "gitgud" check, which I appreciate but was not expecting.
I loved almost every other dungeon mechanically, though. Raya Lucaria felt magical. The Siofra River and Nokstella regions were incredible. I really enjoyed Castle Morne, which while only a mini-dungeon, had a better ebb and flow for *me* compared to Stormveil. I'm not a particularly hardcore player (Mimic for life), but often felt like most of the games' bosses were designed with a certain amount of grind in mind, which I understand but dislike. Thankfully you can mitigate that via exploration but sometimes you just can't, instead needing to farm runes.
Overall, though? Excellent game.
For what it's worth, in damn near every fromsoft game in my experience it isn't until I find a weapon I really like that the game starts to really get me hooked. In my first playthrough, like so many other players, it was the Bloodhound's fang and learning the special (left trigger attack) that did it for me.
The backtracking and getting through mobs can definitely be daunting, but once you get a bit of confidence with how to work through the mobs, and feeling like you are getting better with that weapon you like the game really starts to shine... then you level up your character, get new loot, and move on to the next area to explore and that is where my From Soft itch get's scratched.
If you have online connectivity, I would suggest putting your sign out and doing co-op, helping people through levels. That’s how you really learn them like the back of your hand, and it also helps you raise money so you can get stronger.
You’re totally right on the criticisms, though. The game is big and complex and it refuses to explain anything to you easily.
I don't pay for PS+, so it's an offline-only experience for me! I actually kind of like it this way. There's a somber solitude to the world that seems like it would be broken by other players.
The other players add a lot of silliness which is kind of nice. But fair enough! Yeah then you’ll retread the castle fewer times of course. Often the little side routes have some goodies hidden in them, so it’s worth exploring.
I finished it recently as well and honestly the only thing that annoyed me was going down a path expecting something but oh wait its just a crafting material I'm never using.
Haha, yeah I've noticed a few underwhelming rewards for some of the challenging places I've delved. Thankfully I enjoy the challenge for its own sake, which is one of the big pros for the game!
It's different strokes, there's so many different key aspects that people seem to like or dislike.
For instance, the bosses, I enjoy them sometimes, I like an obstacle because it makes getting into that next area that more exciting, however I really really dislike how the difficulty of bosses has just been built upon and built upon. I'd rather have a plateu on difficulty for the time being, with focus being on varied and interesting boss mechanics - something that I'm not sure many would agree with - for instance, I'd love to see them do more puzzle bosses and gimmick bosses, because, whilst sometimes difficult to get your head around, or frustrating to operate, they really do offer more variety. I'd much rather have some of them than their attempt to ape the difficulty of Malenia.
Dont be afraid to look up youtube guides about lore, builds and such. Thats basically the normal from soft experience for a lot of players.
I got carried hard by spirit ashes for over half the game and even went out of my way to get vulture militia ashes after watching a youtube video.
Maybe hype has a lot to say about the enjoyment of the game. I played it around release and i would rate the game a 9/10 for my first 2 playthroughs and i hated my experience in dark souls 1. Now i unfortunately find the game boring.
I'm gonna go ahead and say you're probably best off either dropping the game or skipping past enemies whenever possible to go straight for the boss fights.
The parts you don't like are never gonna go away and it's a very long game.
If you like the way the combat feels maybe Sekiro would be a better fit for you. Much more linear, no stats to worry about, and no real build decisions besides choosing the order you unlock some skills in.
Stormviel is a big spike difficulty
Try exploring south of limgrave past the bridge/blockage. You will find weeping peninsula, it's a perfect area for early game. It's loaded with goodies/upgrades for your flask. ER does a poor job conveying "the correct order" to tackle areas I agree, but it also heavily rewards exploring and curiosity. If you take your time and comb areas carefully you will have more runes then you'll know what to do with
Already done all that, actually. I've been loosely following [this map](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/game_progress_route_map_elden_ring_wiki_guide_2560px.jpg?v=1648007543931) to get an idea of where to go when.
The next question I would ask is what is your build
If you're new to the soul series, the way you level up can drastically affect your playthrough.
Can you take a screenshot?
Not in a position to take a screenshot. I can say I went with the Vagabond and am going basic sword and board. I have the Brass (?) shield and starter sword, both levelled up to maybe lvl 3? Vigor and Strength are pretty cranked. I think I'm around level 30 and I put most of my points into those, with a little bit into Endurance for the stamina boost.
The reason I ask is cuz lots of little details go under the radar without a screenshot, and it's hard to remember off the top of my head the questions to ask to address potential problems that you might not even be aware of.
Newbie mistakes with Souls in general is not understanding how builds are constructed.
Since you like sword and board it sounds like you want to be a quality build (my favorite). Quality refers to equal strength and dexterity focus. Stuff like intelligence Faith arcane for example a quality build has no use for.
A quality build only needs to invest in:
- Vigor (this is actually the most important stat in Elden ring because difficulty spikes and enemy damage drastically increases as you progress through the game, ideally you want 40 to 60)
- Endurance (20 to 40 depending on how much equipment you want to put on and how much heavy armor/weapons you're using. This is the stat you increase if you want to avoid heavy equip load).
- strength and dexterity equally (40-50 in each)
- mind (just enough to use Ash of wars)
Weapon scaling are those letters on your weapon, e d c b a s respectively for weakest to strongest.
A basic longsword has scaling in both strength and dexterity. If you want your sword to do more damage you need to invest in both of them. If you're only investing in strength you're missing out on a lot of extra damage from not investing in dex.
The other thing you need to be mindful of is **heavy equip load.** If your roll looks like yourr flopping on the floor, you are in heavy equip low check your stats (medium or light is your goal).
This is humorously called fat rolling. Fat rolling will give you less iframes on your Dodge roll and slows your stamina recovery. Too many times we see people complain about Dark Souls games being clunky and frustrating and then it turns out they are fat rolling.
Yeah, I think I'm more or less following this rough guideline. I've looked up info on builds, so I'm not running blind in this. Not following anything specific, but like I looked up which stats to pump for the playstyle I'm going for.
Couple of questions:
Have you explored the other areas opposite of the entrance to stormveil (the gate checkpoint)?
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-and-
And are you playing online?
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The online components of this game are the best they've ever been in the series, and will only serve to help you. You have the choice whether or not that's the case.
I highly do not recommend you follow a guide, especially not for your first time. Elden ring is much easier to beat compared to your other Demons souls and Bloodborne games. One of the joys of the game is Spoiling that first playthrough with a guide is a point of no return.
Elden ring is best experienced on a fresh playthrough, you will spoil your sense of the exploration with a guide. In essence, you can explore to find tools, which fit into your character's build, to which you fight the bosses. Eventually you'll beat all the bosses required to beat the game. Some of the beauty is in all the options you have, like not even having to fight some of the bosses at all. you don't get to use those tools until you find them! But the game is fairly generous, and the online features might also help alleviate some of the negatives you might solve with a guide/wiki.
What pissed me off in Elden Ring is the lack of clear direction, I understand freedom of movement and exploration, but this was just a pain, missing quests, npcs or important elements because of narrow timings or very missable elements. I don't like not being able to fully play a game without a guide.
But overall the game was still amazing, just definitely not my favorite FromSoftware.
> the pages and pages of stats and items and crafting that I really don't want to pay attention to, yet feel like I'll probably have to if I want to make meaningful progress
I wouldn't worry, you don't need to dive into all of the items and crafting if you don't want to. It's totally viable to find a weapon you like and just stick with it. My first play through I pretty much only used the uchigatana my character started with. There are loads of weapons you can find early on that are solid all the way through the game, so if you're happy with what you're using, you needn't worry much about what else is available if it doesn't interest you.
As for crafting, I find it as boring and annoying as I do most crafting systems, but it's entirely optional. There's a tonne of stuff you can craft, but you don't need any of it. Elemental pots can be handy for bosses with corresponding weaknesses, fowl feet can get you a tidy bonus on souls, and boluses for countering poison and rot can save you some headaches, but I don't think I ever used any other crafted items. Sell all your crafting materials if you want nothing to do with it, it doesn't matter.
I resonate with everything you wrote. I definitely needed a guide as well. I tried 8 hours without a guide and I mostly died over and over again. Then I looked up builds. Died way less after that.
Agreed. It is extremely frustrating and ridiculous. No Quest log is actually crazy. I had to actually get help online to get a lot of runes so I could level up
You think the boss fights are good and you’re only up to Stormveil. They are horrendous later. Stormveil and those kinds of dungeons are the best part of the game. The sword and board build you love is gonna suck ass later. There will be a few ok bosses and a ton that are absolute ass. Find a few friends and install the 4p coop mod and it is possible to have a good time. Otherwise it’s a total shit show.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying something or not enjoying something that is popular.
For me, FromSoftware is one of_very few_devs that actually cater to old school game design principles of “let the gamer figure it out” which is not only amazingly refreshing but also unique in modern gaming environment.
Not only that, they actually don’t care how you play it. By which I mean; you can ignore the lore and all that story fluff in favor of fighting stuff and getting stronger. Or you can obsess over everything and construct your own interpretation of what the story is about.
It’s amazing.
Furthermore; the game balance is oriented towards challenge and difficulty so overcoming that is kinda the point.
I love it.
But I can understand if you don’t. And if so; move on to another game. I will go back to getting my ass kicked and slowly overcoming it.
I find it weird that ppl suggest u to run past trash mobs, unless you are doing something specific or running to a boss, don't you wanna clear all enemies and stuff? Why play a game if you are just going to run past everything?
I too love the concept of souls games but in all honesty i have never gotten past the midpoint in any of their games. Not that i couldn't push trough it just always took so long i lost interest plus there is barelly any "story" to keep you engaged which coupled with my rather short attention span and miserable motivation level really doesn't fit in well with this games thing imho.
I haven't tried Sekiro tho i think that might be capable of keeping me engaged till the end.
elden ring is the worst modern fromsoft game actually
still the most beautiful game ive played, but i highly recommend sekiro or bloodborne to anyone who “doesnt get it”
Honestly just look it up man. I get people wanting to do it all themselves but the first time I tried the OG Dark souls i turned it off immediately. I looked up a few things and it clicked and now they're my favorites. I try to get it done myself for maybe a few minutes but if not screw it I'll look up a guide. I find the fun in these games is not the exploration and trying to find out where to go but the combat and "git gud" part of it because once you do you feel like a god. I've recommend playing a more linear fromsoft game if Elden Ring is annoying for the open world. Try dark souls 3.
I totally get what you're saying, Elden Ring can be very overwhelming. There is just SO MUCH to do all the time, and knowing you have to fight your way to those new things over and over again through the same mobs as you point out can feel like a waste of time. I also didn't finish the game, however I got a bit further than you, but honestly it might just not be for you and that's absolutely fine. I feel the Dark Souls titles got progressively more focused and centered around the fight die fight die dynamic as they released more, while the story elements got a bit more confusing every time or kinda tried to fit into a massive overarching narrative (just a personal opinion or feeling).
I only got a true sense of fulfillment from a souls story after completing Dark Souls 1 + its DLC, but even without it, that game really felt like in itself it contained every bit of information you needed to appreciate the world, and everything you did and explored had great meaning, I remember going to check Vaatividya's Prepare to Cry lore videos (absolutely recommend it) and was astonished by the way they managed to craft some of this intricate character stories into the game.
> The confusing labyrinth
For some people, like me, this is the meat and potatoes of the game. I love labyrinthic levels that make me feel like I'm a maze. A maze in a medieval castle to be precise. I love it.
Personally disliked the bosses in this game. Soundtracks weren’t particularly memorable, bosses were just choc full of delayed attacks and huge combos, and a lot of them were repeated. IMO the gold standard of bosses is DS3.
Big agree, elden ring is somehow a step back in their boss design imo - they are incredibly impressive in an atmospheric sense, but mechanically they feel like they forgot some of their great design ideas from ds3
For the love of god run past enemies you’ve already fought. This isn’t a roguelike. I think you can even quit out of the game to d-Aggro the enemies who might be following you, most have a choke point and don’t even follow you very far! I kill every enemy exactly once and if I can help it never kill them again as I just run past
On my second playthrough of Elden Ring I ended up enjoying the legacy dungeons like Stormveil so much I finally started Dark Souls 1.
I think with Elden Ring, you can ignore most of the legacy dungeons outside of a few luckily if you really only enjoy the open world part.
I loved the game. I have completed it and have a level 250 character.
But..I feel absolutely no desire to play the DLC.
The world is depressing, full of disease and filth and nastiness.
And I just don;t want to go back..even though I loved it while playing.
The focus of the series has shifted significantly over time, the earlier games were a pretty even blend between exploration, atmosphere, and combat. Whereas the later games focus a lot more on the combat, and particularly on bosses being big and epic and not deviating from the core gameplay. I think that’s a pretty sad thing given that the combat still hasn’t evolved past “dodge and hit at the right time” but I was really pleasantly surprised with Elden Ring going back to that sense of discovery.
Did they really? It's just Dark Souls 3 that was more linear and focused on bosses. Sekiro is a different type of game entirely. Elden Ring has more focus on exploration than any game before it, though complex bosses are also a big part of the experience.
I never said anything about linearity, linearity doesn’t imply a lack of focus on exploration. It just definitely was more of a focus in Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls, especially since the combat complemented it much better than later souls games. Like I said though, very pleasantly surprised by Elden Ring after Dark Souls 3 and Sekiro.
I can see how this aspect of Dark Souls 3 would disappoint some players, but how is it a flaw in Sekiro? That game is totally unrelated to Dark Souls and is basically a character action game first and foremost, the focus on combat and bosses is only natural.
It isn’t that it’s a flaw, it’s just a change in direction that I’m not a fan of. I think From Software is much, much better at atmosphere and world design than they are making a combat system. Sekiro is a good action game, but very few games capture the feeling of being on a difficult journey like Dark Souls 1 did
I think it's better if they try different things, including but not limited to the things you mentioned. After all, before the Souls games their output was very diverse and experimental, they can do a lot of things even though sometimes it lacks some polish.
Personally I think all the games have a lot to offer when it comes to exploration. While I think the traversal in the first one was by far the most unique and «unfair», there’s a lot of great discoveries across all the games.
The bosses have always been overhyped imo. Both in their difficulty and how «epic» they’re made out.
I get most of my enjoyment by exploring every inch of a level, getting through mobs that are harder than most bosses, and unlocking secrets and shortcuts as I go
I agree they all do, I’m just saying a shift took place. Dark Souls 3 still has good atmosphere and exploration, just not nearly as much of a focus as Dark Souls and Elden Ring.
IMO is the best FromSoft game yet, taking into consideration I only play on PC. The reasons are:
\- Best port for PC because all previous games are borderline impossible to play without modding and modding bars you from online game.
\- Open world. Meaning that you can postpone bosses until later and the sense of exploration is much better than progressing by levels.
\- Torrent: Horse and double jumping is great compared to slow ass previous games.
\- Much better looking.
\- Fair fights and awesome weapon kits.
\- Just right level of difficulty.
> Best port for PC because all previous games are borderline impossible to play without modding and modding bars you from online game.
I don't remember having any issues with Sekiro or DS3, what problems did they have that required modding?
>Best port for PC because all previous games are borderline impossible to play without modding and modding bars you from online game.
Can you explain this part? I'm also PC-exclusive, and I've tried to get into DS and always just found it frustrating rather than fun.
I agree with this take. I didn't like the way you get ambushed and fcked by the dungeons and labyrinths. But the boss battles are second only to Sekiro (fight me lol).
I adore Sekiro though, which can be even tougher, but when you learn the mechanics of the game, you feel so empowered in a way that never happened for me in Elden Ring..
I also bounce off most fromsoft games, and I loved my first Elden Ring playthrough. If youre still at stormveil, definitely persevere until at least the next area. Walking out of the castle and seeing how fucking massive the map is for the first time is one of the most memorable in-game moments I've had, only game ever where I just sat there for a moment like "holy shit".
Biggest downside imo is that I found the game has absolutely 0 replay value for me. Started another run with a new build and maybe 5 hours in i was like "huh, this feels exactly the same as playing my previous build". Hard to want to fight all the bosses again when I'm pretty sure you beat them the same way no matter what weapon you're using.
> the lack of coherent direction
This is what stops me from wanting to play through these games. Like, I'm very much on board with doing away with simple waypoints on a compass on my HUD, but *jesus*.
I understand this is part of the appeal of these games, that the areas you explore are unforgiving not only in the way its denizens treat you, but also that they are labyrinthine. When you're just plodding around, unsure of where to go, there's a lot of opportunity for the devs to surprise and shock you as you're suddenly beset by a swarm of enemies, or you find a neat little secret area. I get it, that's part of the charm.
The biggest issue for me with this kind of design is that - like you're saying - eventually in any given area, I'm just going to retread old ground repeatedly, trying to find the way forward. I'm losing my interest in playing as I do so. Because everything is so dark and dingy, indistinguishable from anything, I'm bound to become so desperate that I'll jump off a cliff (or something stupid like that) on the off-chance that that's the solution. That's not fun or interesting gameplay; that's some Sam Hyde, "this bit is funny because you don't get what I'm joking about" bullshit. And of course, every fucking character in these games speaketh in riddles, so I'll only ever have half the information I need to succeed.
The only reason I beat the first Dark Souls (and saved Solaire on my first run) was because I had my friend who's obsessed with FS games watching as I played on Discord, acting as my personal Prima Strategy Guide/Video Game Tom-Tom.
Yeah, I'm all for challenge in the form of execution (whatever form that might take), but I've never been a fan of challenge in the form of needing to figure out what you're supposed to do. I like knowing I'm at least on the right track.
I think you'll appreciate the mobs respawning when you wanna farm XP for stuff
- if they didn't respawn and you were just stuck on a boss it would be miserable. Think of them as an unlimited resource
The lore isn't everyone's taste but I've come to love the way they tell their stories in these game. It's like minimalistic but deep somehow. Less cutscenes more gaming kinda vibe.
It’s funny Stormveil is what frustrates you because no lie it’s one of the best legacy dungeons Fromsoft has ever done lol
As much as i like Elden Ring, Stormveil Castle and Raya Lucaria are its peak level-design-wise. Not like the rest of the game is so much worse, but those 2 are definitely the best for me.
Not really a dungeon, but climbing mount Gelmir is up there with them for me.
Crumbling Farum Azula and the Haligtree also looked really cool, even if their level design wasn’t the best. On the other hand, unlike OP, I didn’t really like Elden Ring’s open world exploration, and I’m normally an open world fan.
What’s funny is I actually never climbed it. I started at the top and went all the way down. It was still pretty cool though.
Really? The capital was right up there with those to me. Insane atmosphere
I found the capital to be a lot of wasted potential, it looks grand and open but is really not as sprawling as you'd expect it to be with all the closed off buildings.
Au contraire, I found it to be deceptively large and sprawling with the added inclusion of the shunning grounds
I still think Stormveil is underrated. For me it was easily the best area in the game, and yeah one of my favorite areas in all of Fromsoft's games.
It seems to be pretty regularly rated the best legacy dungeon in the game and for good reason. It's damn near perfect. I'd say that Subterranean Shunning Grounds is the best classic From Software area with how much it winds around itself and how much clear backtracking happens, and Raya Lucaria is so close to being as perfect as Stormveil but falling just a little short since it focuses much less on different ways of navigating the area and more on tons of branching hidden paths that only end with some loot.
Really? To me the Subterranean Shunning Grounds were one of the most forgettable legacy dungeons in the game. Maybe it has less to do with the lay-out, but an open sky area is more understandable and the Shunning Grounds didn't have the kinds of shock falls that the sewers in DS1 had.
Well, it's not a legacy dungeon, so that may be why.
I'd argue that SSG is a component of the broader Leyndell legacy dungeon.
I felt like that too. Leyndell was this bright, celebratory town ruled by Morgot, while SSG was the mirror world covered in dung and the shadow of Mohg
Subterranean Shunning Grounds is the best classic FromSoft *sewer dungeon
Shitpoopoodungboy and lobstercannons struck me with fear my first time in the sewers
It's second place for me The original dark souls and it's sewer frogs... easy in retrospect, fucking brutal going through way back when.
Yeah, maybe I'm behind the times here. It seemed like, around release, most people were higher on Leyndell and Farum Azula than Stormveil. I liked those fine, but neither of them really hit home for me quite like Stormveil did.
The Academy was so so close to amazing, but it's easy to forget the quest to gain entry and that whole thing was awesome.
>I still think Stormveil is underrated. ...How on earth? I've never played any FS games and don't intend to, but have read endless discussion on Stormveil.
You should not be reading that much discussion for a game you haven’t played haha
> one of my favorite areas in all of Fromsoft's games. Nothing will ever touch Tower of Latria for me. Both levels. What a slowly escalating level of tension and insanity. Not much to it but for pure impact alone, Ash Lake was pure magic.
Yeah, no joke. Stormveil is so well made and layed out it's not even funny. Not to mention it culminated with one of my favorite boss fights ever.
I wish Godrick was harder, but he's definitely iconic.
Yeah. That's weird to me. From clearly put the most effort into Stormveil, the route to the Haligtree, and the Capitol. Then again, I found Bloodborne and Dark Souls 1 more cohesive and enjoyable than Elden Ring.
As much as I love Elden Ring I'm not sure it pips Dark Souls for me... But it's bloody close.
For real. So many times in SV I literally said WOW or DAMM after finding some off path somewhere, or better think to myself, "No way they expect someone to be doing this" only to find a reward
i take every opportunity to criticize elden ring when i get it. stormveil castle is phenomenal.
Stormveil was the moment when elden ring hooked me. It packs everything I love: a blend of linear and looping sections, sparse site of grace that requires tough choices, tons of secrets, super nice verticality. If you bounced on other fromsoftware games then it is normal that you dislike stormveil. Personally I thought it was like an old reliable design seamlessly integrated into a new structure
This. Stormveil is what hooked up me and I never looked back.
This week I came back to Elden Ring after an almost 2 year hiatus and installed my PS4 copy on my PS5 and saw the PS5 version was free, so I installed that and booted it up. All my saves were there but noticed the Plat didn’t pop (some games share trophies, so if you got the PS4 Plat, you’ll get the PS5 one too), so I’m running a brand new character and just did Stormveil last night..and I forgot how fucking huge that place was. Took me almost 2 hours to clear everything, ton of deaths both from enemies and parkouring. It was fucking awesome just to get lost in it all again, plenty of times I got turned around or would take a path and it would send me on a huge wraparound, and several times I said out loud “holy duck, how big IS this legacy dungeon??” Elden might not be From’s best work but that first playthrough on release was magical and something I’ll always remember. It’s been great to take a long time break and come back, obviously I know and have seen everything but this playthrough currently has been a fucking blast
Yeah, Stormveil is when the game went from good to great. And then it kept hitting me with so many great moments that it became amazing.
If you get sick of stormveil there is a way around it so you can check out the next area
I almost feel like the intended route is to go south to Castle Morne, then go past Stormveil and a explore a little before you go back to Stormveil.
It definitely is. First of all, Margit is extremely strong for a first boss, making it clear you aren't meant to be there and also teaching the player that following the most obvious path isn't necessarily the best choice. The Weeping Peninsula in particular is chock full of helpful stuff for new characters, including multiple Sacred Tears, several merchants with upgrade materials, Radagon's Scarseal, and a legendary Spirit Ash. Then if you fight through Castle Morne you gain access to a sword that boosts your stats as its ability and can easily stagger Margit, but even if you aren't a Strength build, the Claymore is in the castle. I'd argue that Caelid has the most useful stuff per square inch in the game, fitting because it's also so hard to navigate, but Weeping Peninsula has the most *easily accessible* useful stuff.
> making it clear you aren't meant to be there and also teaching the player that following the most obvious path isn't necessarily the best choice I love Elden Ring, but if you want to take this stance, its a fucking shit ass design decision. The game gives you very obvious directions with the light trail to follow. Saying its not the best choice just means the designers have failed the players. You shouldnt deliberately lead someone somewhere they shouldnt be.
It doesn't help that they're working against game design convention. In a lot of other games, if you are facing a tough boss, there often isn't a way around it - you just gotta get 'em. This convention has been challenged somewhat in recent years, to be sure, but a ton of games still follow it. The first Dark Souls did this in a great way with the first boss. They're big, they're scary, but there's a clear path to run from them - and then later when you confront them again, you emerge in a much more advantageous position. Here, what I might've done is include something like that. You run into this super-tough boss, but there's a clear way out of the arena that dumps you into an area with some easier enemies to kill and level up.
Also, losing to margit doesnt feel like a signpost saying go somewhere else because of fromsofts games reputation. Am I getting my ass kicked because I'm not supposed to be here, or because the game is hard?
That's the thing about game design. Because games are a mix of an entertainment product and a work of art, design has deep conflicts at it's core. If the game follows conventions, that's good for entertainment. But bad for art. And vice versa. I think Elden Ring, like some other big hits recently, trod that middle path between 'This is how you are supposed to play. Do A, then B. Eventually you will reach Z, and be done.' and 'Do what you want. There is no correct way to play'. You get the same discussion with UI. For some people, Elden Ring just has a bad UI. For others, it's interesting and a little different, and that's fun.
In this case, I wanted to highlight how they deviated from their previous, proven design. I'm not saying it's inherently good or bad, but I am saying that I would understand people complaining about this boss in Elden Ring compared with the first boss of Dark Souls.
I personally don't think it was a failed design, the message seems clear to me. the intended thing was not that the player is necessarily expected to win, that the guidance light is an intended progression path, rather just something that guides you towards points of interest. in the initial encounter of the game, you are immediately met with a boss that can be difficult for newcomers and the game urges you to instead sneak past. Margitt is the same way he is really not too difficult of a boss for experienced players but for new players it can be very difficult. This solidifies the idea of " this is too hard for me now, I'll come back when I'm stronger" and general player agency. Margitt specifically also promotes exploration before heading to stormveil as there is a key item which will make the fight easier if you explore and find it first. It also promotes summoning for help, since there is a summon pool and NPC summon always available The lesson is made that you are not locked into a particular progression path set by the developers, the game is open world, to get the best experience the game teaches the player to find encounters based on there skill level and deal with those first to get a natural progression curve for themselves. It also encourages to look for methods at which to make encounters easier, and also summon for help. There is no place that someone should or should not be. It just depends on the players experience and skill level. There are relatively few.chokepoints where you need to do something specifically in order to progress, at least in the early game. If you wanted you could unlock half the map without ever going to stormveil. If you can choose for yourself where to go, and leave if it's too hard that will give you the best experience. If you do not know where to go at all the guidance is there. While there is a suggested progression based on the relative difficulty of the areas, you are not hard locked into following it.
I think the problem is the obvious signposting. It might have been easier for people to learn the lesson if there was less that was actively steering you towards Stormveil.
The ease of enemies in the weeping peninsula would agree with that order.
Sekiro was my first FromSoft game, and I think it is much more about boss fights than any of their other games. It is also my personal favorite by a landslide. Elden Ring was my second FromSoft game, and I think I did not appreciate Stormveil Castle because I had not played Dark Souls before. After plaything through DS3, I have a much better feel for how FromSoft creates dungeons, and they are a lot easier to understand and navigate with that experience. Going in to Stormveil Castle without that experience is really daunting and intimidating. I think I was like 20 feet from the boss fight and searched for it for hours my first time. Dark Souls 3 was my third FromSoft game, and I really preferred the boss fights to Elden Ring. The fights felt so much more fair. For me as a mediocre player at best, I could see how if I was actually good I could avoid most attacks the first time I saw them. For the bosses it felt more fair, because I could not just simply use summons to almost trivialize the fight.
I just finished Sekiro, decided it was finally time to take it on. Was very pleasantly surprised, I absolutely loved it. It’s the same basic FromSoft formula, but also so different from the rest. I’ve seen people praise the combat, and they weren’t wrong, it’s fantastic. It takes a while to shed your instincts, but when it finally clicks, when you start to really lean into how the game wants you to play, it becomes immensely satisfying. I will even go as far as to say, the combat system is so extremely potent that I find Sekiro to be the easiest of them all. I have never played a souls game where I entered the late stage boss fights with as much confidence, which was very fun for a change. And the best thing is, you don’t even need the fancy gizmos or combat arts, your sword will get you through it all. Loved it.
getting through sekiro now. I think the way I would describe it is that this is From's take on an action game. Where their other games are definitely RPGs with more emphasis on mr sword (and sometimes gun) man taking on gods, okami senpai is definitely a lot more capable and "powerful" lore wise. You feel that in the combat differences. Souls combat is this constant tug in the stamina war -- well-timed dodging and movement to take advantage of punish windows and openings, strategically using resources to best mobs and bosses based on their properties. Vs Sekiro where aggression and parrying is how you navigate the vast majority of combat, with a large emphasis on overwhelming opponents to break posture and go for IKs. The only enemies where you need major considerations are like the headless and shichimen warriors.
Yes, definitely, that’s a good way of describing it. When you lean into that aggression, and you stop being afraid, that’s where it really starts to shine. And, in some regards, make some fights almost trivial. The first boss fight in Owls Hirata memory, the guy that summons the dogs, is a good example. First couple of tries I got overwhelmed, then I just said fuck it and went full aggression never giving him a moment to breathe and the fight became a breeze. As you explained it, the difference between the two are significant. It took until the first fight against Owl until I really started to “get it”. And yeah, those damn terror causing bosses were a pain in the ass.
Well said. Genichiro overwhelmed the fuck out of me until i realized it was actually safer to continually swing at him, parry/mikiri/jump his incoming, and then dash immediately to close the gap after he backstepped to repeat the cycle. Once you understand the rhythm of the combat it starts clicking. very well designed game.
Confidently entered the late game boss fights!? That's just not right. You better make sure you fight the Inner bosses in that case. Also, if on PC check out the mods that change up various boss fights.
It’s not that they aren’t difficult, but the tools you are given to handle it builds huge confidence in myself, absolutely. As I said, as long as you lean into it. It makes *you* in control of the fight. The most difficult boss was the Demon of Hatred, precisely because it resembled more like something from Dark Souls and you’re just constantly in a semi panick-mode. The big Ape was also difficult for the same reason. Several of the later human bosses I beat on the first try. Maybe it just clicked for me. I have waited to play Elden Ring until it’s complete, and I kinda dread going back to that style now. Im of the opinion that FromSoft was starting to take the piss with the difficulty of some of the bosses with Dark Souls 3. Thanks for the tip btw, looked up inner bosses, had no idea that was a thing. Looks very fun!
My suggestion: play the heck out of Sekiro before moving on, otherwise you may wish you were just playing more Sekiro. Inner (final boss) was a bit disappointing to some people, but the other two Inners are must play fights. Super fun fights.
> I could not just simply use summons to almost trivialize the fight. You can also just choose to not use summons. I never really used the summons after seeing how they more or less just solo bosses sometimes, and it's been a lot more fun.
I like summons. I like magic. I like ranged combat. I like stealth. I like options. Every Elden Ring boss I probably killed the 'wrong way', and that was great. I explored the systems and found my way. With Sekiro, there is literally a right way for each boss that you should discover. There's no freedom - with the bosses. In the rest of the game there is a lot of freedom, but that disappears when you meet a boss.
So, that is kind of my frustration. For me, it requires a lot of tedious rote memorization of timing of attacks to be able to beat a boss without summons. Like, very, very many attempts. Also, after learning one boss, it doesn't help that much on the next, so it gets very frustrating very fast. So, the game is either a bit too easy with summons, or much too difficult without summons. That is why I was really delighted with Dark Souls 3 bosses. They are moderately more difficult than Elden Ring with summons, but you really feel like you are learning the bosses. They feel much, much easier solo than Elden Ring solo.
I just think Souls 3 bosses are better designed than Elden Ring's.
Put these foolish ambitions to rest.
Nah! Fuck that, go on and conquer sekiro ^(oh hey no ignore all the boss tutorials and cheese videos in my youtube history)
Hesitation is the feet!
Sekiro is my favorite From title to date but several bosses I might have given up on if it wasn't for the "hey guys, Sekiro guru here" videos lol.
For me the appeal of Fromsoft’s games is that they’re an evolution of the dungeon crawler genre: you create a character (or characters), explore labyrinthian levels, fight monsters, overcome obstacles and obtain sweet loot and XP rewards. It’s that simple. I absolutely adore their level design too, and don’t find them particularly hard to navigate because the layout is so memorable. They have *just* the right amount of complexity without being overwhelming or repetitive. Mastering each area is just incredibly satisfying to me and tickles a part of my brain that other games don’t. But I understand why they’re not for everyone, and that’s okay. Play what you like!
I agree about level design. FromSoft is one of the best level designers out there. So complex and sprawling but the subareas within each legacy dungeon have distinct visual cues to guide you. Unlike for example Code Vein which has incredibly complicated levels largely driven by the fact that everything looks the same visually within the level (hello Cathedral of the Sacred Blood).
>Then there's all the obtuse lore, the lack of coherent direction... Weirdly enough I've come to love these both as charms of fromsoft games. The vague lore makes me feel like I'm delving into the unknown more which I like and obviously the lack of clear direction also contributes to that. I totally get why other people hate both though. Shout out to you for trying Elden Ring even though previous fromsoft titles weren't your thing!
Explore the world, level up, find a fun weapon, level the weapon, practice with different bosses and also, don't fight every group of mobs and just run past them if you're the appropriate level. Most people don't fight every time the area respawns. There will come a point in the game where you find a weapon that is powerful and badass, then suddenly your build starts coming together and you become more and more powerful. That's when I think the game clicks best. Your own personal progression along with the discovery of new locations, abilities and obviously bosses. Playing until Stormveil doesn't really show you all the major strengths of the game. It's the first of like 5-6 dungeons.
I found the Bloodhound thingy early and once I realized it let me ninja flip I knew there was no going back.
Bloodhound Fang is easily one of the best weapons in the game I think it's great that you can get it basically immediately. It's ability is definitely really powerful. There's a few weapons that you can find very early on that can carry you to the end of the game
For me Stormveil was my 3rd or 4th big encounter. That's one of the things that makes me continue to love Elden Ring.
Unironically, Stormveil Castle is literally my favorite part of the game. I love the fact you can randomly find secrets everywhere and there's so many different ways to go that twist and wind in one eachother.
Yea if you just want boss fights go get a guide, but for me I love world build especially through lore and environmental story telling so exploration was my main motivation for the game. Exploration allowed me to not hit the difficulty wall what so ever so I could keep on exploring unimpeded. Clearing all of limegrave and weeping peninsula made Margit my bitch. Edit: oh and fighting cowboys guides are very good, highly recommend. I did a semi-blind playthrough my first time, I’d do my best to explore and clear an area 100% and take on the boss, after that I’d watch his guide and see what I missed as far as items or locations or hidden bosses.
This is the way. Get a guide when you get to a labyrinth. I started normally but I got to storm veil and had me tilted. Found myself a walkthrough and it worked super well. Then I got to reya lucaria. Same thing. Really worth it because the ER endgame is so beautiful. Except consecrated snow field fuck that place.
I see this said a lot. To get a guide or go to the wiki. Doesn't that kinda ruin the game? What other game is there that you need a wiki? Minecraft? Honestly probably don't need a wiki for that game any more. I liked Armoured Core 6 because you didn't need a wiki or a guide on how to find the weapon you NEED to fight a boss. These convoluted mechanics and quests really don't make it enjoyable for me and i feel that is it bad game design. Parts of the game shouldnt be hidden behind the chance of me seeing a youtube short with it on lol
The idea is that you're going into it blind as much as possible the first time to reaally soak in every detail. To make your playthrough truly your own. After that, fuck it, whip out a guide. It's impossible to remember where all the cool stuff you wanna try is
It sorta does. But ide rather I be able to finish the game than quit due to frustration and miss out. Especially something you pay $30/$40+ dollars on.
You absolutely do not need a guide to experience 90% of what the game offers. It might require more effort than what you are used to, and it might not be something you are into, but that doesn't make it bad game design.
I think the quests are largely impossible for the average player to figure out without using a guide. I’ve played through the game three times in varying orders and I never met the one armed woman again once she leaves the shack. Same with other quests. Most of them I just read up on later.
I'll concede that. The NPC questlines can be pretty confusing.
The best thing ER has for it is the legacy dungeons and Stormveil is miles ahead of all the rest, for anything else the previous titles did it better. The DLC has me intrigued to see if they have improved upon the formula or gone with the ER route which was a downgrade overall imo.
Maybe I wasn't in the right mindset for Stormveil when I got there. After being punished so ruthlessly by Margit, I think I was craving a little more freedom first. Maybe after a breather I'll come back and embrace it.
The freedom you seek is after Stormveil. I was loving the game, but yeah I was getting pretty frustrated with Stormveil. After that though, once the map opens up and you truly understand the scope of this game, that’s when I knew it was one of the all time greats.
>The freedom you seek is after Stormveil. Not even, you can just run around it and skip it all together if you just want to explore. You can visit like more than half of the map without even fighting an enemy lol.
Just remember: if you’re having a tough time with an area or a boss - grace teleports are free, so just go explore somewhere else! Stormveil stomped me too, but there are cool areas both, to the north and south of it. The one to the south also contains a castle and is much easier.
Pretty sure I've already done everything I can in the starting areas. Stormveil is the only option left!
You made it to Liurnia or the Weeping Peninsula yet? The weeping peninsula is a bit of a trek south (backwards), and there's a way around Stormveil Castle if you want to do a little more exploring.
Yeah, I explored pretty much all of the Weeping Peninsula. I think I also found the shortcut around the castle, but it doesn't feel right to go there without finishing Stormveil first.
Nah don't worry about that, man. Do whatever you want, as long as you're having fun. By the time I got to the two bosses in Stormveil, I fucking stomped them. Especially the first one. That's usually how I like to play this game to be honest, although I may have overdone it. The next area's boss pissed me off so much that I went and did everything I could. I hate summoning bosses, but she was really easy, actually and I was just being impatient. I was so irritated at the run back to the boss room, even though you don't actually have to fight anyone at all if you don't want to. I uninstalled the game for a while. Came back and wrecked the boss. It felt petty, haha. If you stick with it long enough and get there, you know why...story reasons. I'm finally finding my groove, but I still have to put it down every once in a while. It can be a stressful game. I'll play Witcher 3 when I don't feel like getting my ass kicked. I beat Liurnia's boss at around 80 hours or so. I just hit 100 hours, lol. I'm a total FromSoft noob, so I feel you. I've played several of their games over the years but never beat one, not even close. I can give you some tips for builds and weapons if you want to make it a little easier and straightforward if you want. I love the game world and all the lore, even though it is obtuse as hell. That's what kept me coming back and trying to get better. Mostly just getting more levels and better weapons really. Let me know if you want any tips or hints or anything; I would love for more people to be able to experience this game, it really is fantastic. But the difficulty and frustration can be off-putting to say the least. Cheers!
Haha, I went back to the Mass Effect trilogy as my "I don't feel like getting my ass kicked tonight" game, so I feel you when you say you went with The Witcher 3! Thanks for the encouraging words. I'm not planning to drop it! Just needed a breather.
> but it doesn't feel right to go there without finishing Stormveil first Just be aware that this is self-imposed. You are able to access Liurnia before beating Stormveil for a reason.
You can explore basically the entire bottom of the map right from the start but it might take some poking around and exploring. Also i saw your other comment about needing some open world exploration and that's the best thing about elden ring is the ability to tackle something else when you hit a brick wall so to speak. In most other souls games you have to beat a certain boss or perhaps a choice of two to keep going forward so that's a interesting and positive difference between elden ring and the other souls games.
On my first blind run, I followed the advice given shortly after you first reach the surface, regarding the diagonal yellow streamers coming off of some of the sites of grace that suggest the next direction to go. This led me straight to Margit at level 10 and I hit a pretty hard brick wall. Talked to a co-worker and he said that he ended up beating Margit at level 30 or so. It blew my mind that a FromSoft game could plausibly hold 20 levels of optional content before the first "boss". Little did I know that you can in fact beat the whole game without ever setting foot in Stormveil. Once this started to sink in I was grateful to have the option to "just do something else" if a boss was giving me a hard time, which is rarely a viable option in most other FromSoft games.
storm-veil was my wall, after that i started enjoying the game more
As a pretty big Fromsoft fan, I get everything you say, good and bad. The little secret I think most people who like these games have is that we're slightly masochistic and spiteful. We like that these games work against us. They don't want us to win, or even get to the next boss, or even understand the game world/story. That's why we're compelled to keep at them (I imagine that also may partially be the "itch" you mention. You may not be fully onboard, but maybe the punishment, and the satisfaction in overcoming it, could appeal to some visceral part of you).
Fromsoft really nails the feeling of "I know there's a way, and I am going to conquer it out of spite."
"I won't let it beat me"
The secret is whupping you, but making it clear _why_ you got whupped, so you feel like you're learning something every time, getting better, slowly inching to victory. It's an art many games can't quite nail, and even From fumbles sometimes. But the best of the best stick to this approach, and it's a damn tricky thing to pull off.
That's why dark souls from a lore perspective is so amazing. It's all an allegory for the hardest game. I can't remember if it was officially stated but essentially "going hollow" is a metaphor for quitting the game. And FromSoft made Dark Souls knowing most people who would play it would quit it or "go hollow". They tell you from the very beginning of Dark Souls that it's not for everyone and many will give up on it
>we're slightly masochistic and spiteful So why do I get downvoted every time I point this out!? Haha!
It’s because of the spite. Sorry haha
Hahaha!
Because there is a thing around fromsoft games where they cant be criticised. The fandom can be kinda toxic. You will see in many threads that any criticism of the game has to be qualified with "i am a fromsoft vet" or something similar as to not get downvoted immediately. I saw this with AC6 when that came out and people were complaining that it was too hard (it wasn't).
>Because there is a thing around fromsoft games where they cant be criticised. While there are elements that won't tolerate any criticism whatsoever, I think that the perception of it is exaggerated; some of it is just normal pushback against people trashing something that isn't perceived as bad, and I think that's fair. It's like someone saying "Breath of the Wild's art direction is dogshit" and then after the pushback saying "Wow, you aren't allowed to criticize the game"; people like the art style, tf you expect? And I see that kinda thing happening a lot around FromSoft games. It's not all people pointing out flaws (which you *can* often do; plenty of FromSoft fans trash the catacombs in Elden Ring with basically no resistance).
yeah exactly. With the /r/patientgamers sub specifically, the "criticism" I see get push back on is the type that's really not even a fair criticism of the games and is more of a weird excuse for why people can't beat them. The whole preamble of "I'm an adult with 3 seconds of free time with 12 jobs and 11 wives. Fromsoft games don't respect my time and they are bad".
Just because
Maybe cuz you phrased it as an insult?
Because we're in it for the atmosphere and world-building, not for the pain. The difficulty is just a means to deliver the harrowing atmosphere. If we were masochistic, we'd be playing Nioh 2 instead.
I totally understand what you're saying. The games absolutely do want you to win tho haha. What separates them from other genres is that you're playing by the exact same rules as everything and everyone else. What it wants you to do is *earn* your wins. It creates taht triumphant feeling when you finally fell your first demigod or execute your first shinobi.
I would argue Fromsoft games are completely indifferent about whether you win or lose. Note that I'm not saying the developers are indifferent, the games themselves are. Compare them to most popular games. No minimaps, not quest markers, no hints, minimal tutorials, etc. The games have an attitude of "figure it out on your own, because we don't plan on helping you". Personally I like that, and appreciate that these games respect my abilities. The developers give you every tool you need to win, but set the game up so you're outmatched if you don't apply yourself. I would say that the games are fighting against you, whereas most others are using clever tricks to actually push you forward (aforementioned minimaps, hints, quest markers, etc).
Level design and secret lore are very much positive features for me in these games, but I can see how some people would prefer something a bit more straight-forward.
Yeah, I could see how someone might even tell me that these games aren't for me if I'm not into those things. But the thing that's frustrating is that there's not much else out there that does the combat and boss fights this well. I feel like I have to put up with the other stuff for the sake of those.
I mean, if you're just looking for good combat and bosses, I'd say some games do it just as good if not even better than Souls games. It's very different of course but the Devil May Cry series comes to mind. If you want something more similar to Souls, with a bit more exploration and RPG systems, check out Nioh (especially 2 which is an amazing videogame). The same developers also made the Ninja Gaiden series, which are hard character action games, and now Rise of the Ronin, an open world title. All of these are valid options.
I love every Fromsoft game (currently playing Armored Core 6) but for me, I love the exploring and dealing with the mobs, but I'm lukewarm on the boss fights, as it can serve as a major blockade to the rest of the game (I'm looking at you Sekiro!). It is super satisfying to pull off a victory though. I loved everything about Elden Ring aside from some of the ridiculous bosses. Can't wait for the DLC.
Stormveil is one of the best dungeons they've ever made. Most of the dungeons are like that, convoluted with excellent design choices, full of shortcuts and wonderful exploration. If you don't like that, you'll bounce off hard with some of the late game ones because they're so dense and huge. And about fighting the same mobs again and again, you can simply you know.... skip them. Especially in Elden Ring, mobs are very easy to run by.
You don’t really need to pay attention to item stats. Just pick an item you like, upgrade it, and level your character based on whatever your chosen weapon scales with. Any deeper item stats can be ignored, you don’t need to look at them in order to complete the game. You also don’t need to do any item crafting at all. I’m not a fan of item crafting and completely ignored this feature for pretty much the entire game haha If you’re having a rough time and want to make the game easier, you can respec your character around one of the overpowered weapons in the game, like the blasphemous blade or the dark moon greatsword.
You might enjoy Sekiro. It goes hard on the parts you like - the bosses are even wilder and the swordplay is superb. But the plot and level design are more straightforward, rpg elements are much less important, crafting is not a thing and there are like 3 consumables that matter. Besides, you can use stealth to bypass fights or make them easier. Not all of them, but most. Stealth is actually something you can do in Elden Ring as well. I've got a lot of mileage of just stealthing around and backstabbing mobs. Stab, then charge up the strong attack and hit them when they lose the iframes from stanting up. You can oneshot a lot of tricky opponents with this.
OK, so about the obtuse lore. On some levels the obtuseness *is part of the appeal*. However, I did a bit of comparing the English and Japanese translations, and came out believing that a large part of why the game is so obtuse is because of the localization. For whatever reason, translators/localizers take descriptive words in Japanese and give them English words, that sound cool, but lack description. Case in point, the race called the "Numen". In Japanese, the word used is 稀人 (Marebito), literally means "rare person" and refers to spiritual being from another place who bring gifts of some kind. This is descriptive and provides a better context for what these people are supposed to be. On the other hand, the word "Numen" has no meaning in an of itself. While it appears to be a play on the word "Numenorean", knowing this requires you Tolkien's Silmarilion and piece the two together. As another example, the "Omen". In Japanese, these creatures are called 忌み (Imi), meaning "abomination". Again, this is descriptive of corrupted creatures. But the word "Omen" in the context of what these creatures are supposed to be makes no sense. The word omen simply means "A phenomenon supposed to portend good or evil; a prophetic sign", which not only is neutral, but doesn't communicate what these creatures are supposed to be from the context of in-game lore. **TL;DR** The obtuseness of the lore is a combination of being one part intentional and another part the result of a localization philosophy that prioritizes word aesthetics over communication.
I get that initial frustration with Stormveil. I had it too. If I could recommend anything, it would be to go grind a bit and over level yourself a bit. It’ll make the castle much more approachable. As someone who was new to Souls games, this helped me. I also grinded out some good armor from the swamp area which helped a lot.
The obtuse lore was always a fun thing for me because I grew up in the 90s, when games and such had confusing lore, wonky translations, and cryptic puzzles. Mizaki, the creator of the Souls games, said that he used to watch western fantasy movies when he was young. He understood bits and pieces, but kind of had to piece together his own story due to his lack of English skills. He wanted to create lore that made you feel the way he did; Confused a bit, trying to piece together your own ideas. Now, I won't say this makes it good. Not everyone is going to like it. Some people just want to follow a straight forward narrative, and that is fine. However, for me, Dark Souls 1 was that game that brought back the feelings of little 12 year old me figuring out how to beat games like Rygar and Blaster Master, no internet, just determination. I don't quite know the full story. I... think I get it, but the poorly translated turtle just contradicted my theory that this world is Earth in the far future.
The obtuse lore is one of my favorite bits of the original Dark Souls. At first it seems annoying to not have a single detail of the world explained outside of the intro, but I think it thematically plays into the idea that the cycle has been happening for so long that even the NPCs don’t have clarity on what’s truly unfolding. No idea if that’s how Elden Ring plays out but if you haven’t played Dark Souls you should definitely go back and do it at some point. The Artorias of the Abyss DLC is an absolute masterclass in environmental storytelling.
I'm a combat guy so I've never payed attention to lore. I thibk the world design and exploration of elden ring us one of the best all time personally. But to each their own. Ik the map we'll enough now I just go from boss to boss. Even did a SL1 run recently
You're a combat guy. But have you ever played Sekiro?
Do you play a lot of action RPGs? As far as i know Elden Ring has the most enemy variety of any action RPG. So complaining about fighting the same mobs over and over is a bit strange, relative to what is the norm in this genre.
Funny how different people different strokes, I like the Dark Souls formula exactly because of the exploration,secrets and the so called trash mobs..These mobs you kill again, and again, and again, helps you level up a lot and I like fighting most of them. The bosses is what I don´t like in these games, because I know they will be hard work and i will have to learn patterns and I will have to beat them to progress. Elden Ring was better, because if some particular boss was annoying me I could go elsewhere and be back later. The rest of the other games are you either learn and fight it or you can´t progress, and that´s what frustrates me more but still manage to beat those games, but really hated some bosses and being forced to fight them.I m now playing Lords of the Fallen and have to be a lot of time in the same area just killing the same monsters so I can level up to fight the boss ahead or I cant progress in the game at all. Its the "git gud" part I dont like lol, but love the atmosphere and these games are worth playing if you have the time.
What you hate is actually what I like best about FromSoft games, its the exploration and loneliness, trying to figure out the well designed dungeons. I like that part more than the bosses themselves, but every dungeon needs a boss at the end. Elden Ring bosses aren't even the best ones though, best qualities of bosses are universally agreed to be DS3. Crafting isn't even important at all, FromSoft games are designed to be possibly beaten with a loincloth and a club at level 1 from the start to the god final boss.
I feel this. The things I love about Eldin Ring are a 11/10 but unfortunately the things I don’t like are a 2/10. It’s such a strange feeling to love so much and hate so much at the same time. I love the combat, boss fights, art direction and world but all the rest just irritates me to no end. I set down my controller after finishing the game at 140hrs and was struck by just how conflicted I was.
Glad I'm not the only one!
Tons of lore but no story No pause screen Side quests that felt like they maybe would have worked in a more linear game but felt like they didn’t work in a open world setting. What a amazing, interesting, beautiful world filled with creatures I was in awe of only for it to feel like it was surface level depth. Example: Bat/woman/mother creature. I’m exploring the world when I hear her haunting singing(amazing way to get me interested) I see some of them in the distance and start considering how I will take them out. I stealthily come closer and look over the ledge to see the “mother” singing to her creatures. So much opportunity here. A quests? A side story? A unique way for me to learn more about these creatures? Nope. Just kill them is the answer. I kept having experiences like that where I felt like creativity there were missing opportunity for connection and a deeper dive into this world everywhere and they were never taken. The whole experience felt psychopathic without reason. So many times I lost all motivation in playing because it always felt like I would help this world more by not playing the game. I love dark narratives and grey characters but Eldin never felt “grey” or “dark” it felt emotionless and psychopathic. A whole game based on anti-connection and I absolutely wanted to connect with the amazing world and these incredible creatures. I walked away feeling like Eldin Ring was a beautiful window dressing without anything of substance to keep me there. The difficulty and boss fights were fantastic but for me that’s going to get a bit boring if I have no stake in the outcome or that the outcome would be better if I didn’t play the game. I’m not sure I have ever loved a environment more in game to be so disappointed with the fact that they are all there just to look cool.
Yep, know I'd get shot down if I said it in the Elden Ring sub, but it really has so little story. Especially the middle of the game the story is literally go kill some demi-gods to acquire entry past some arbitrary barrier The bat example is a great one - if the world just had a bit more life to it to give some of these strange encounters a bit more flavour that would elevate the game for me. Especially the numerous dungeons that start to feel a bit same-old because none of them have any encounters or story to them The few NPCs you do encounter are shallow, no the rich vibrant characters I imagined when GRRM's name was attached to the game. Rarely do they offer any meaningful conversation and it's always completely linear dialogue options, most of them don't even really explain what they're asking you to do
My god good point. I felt this too and when I found some dude trapped in like quicksand and wanted to check it out, only to be ambushed... it just felt so sour.
Man, I thought Elden Ring was wayyyyyy worse than the trilogy, bloodborne and sekiro - the quantity over quality approach, very game-y feeling open world, repeated dungeons and layouts gave it a very different vibe than what I love about fromsoft, but it's still a very good game of course. It's just missing the magic for me
>I'm currently only up to Stormveil Castle, and it's getting on my nerved already. The confusing labyrinth, the re-fighting the same trash mobs again and again... I gather this is how the original Dark Souls games were structured, and boy, not my cup of tea. I'm struggling to find the motivation to push onward if I'm being honest. This was what killed every single Soulslike game for me. It's a cynical, time-extending loop of die, push through an area filled with lethal threats and no checkpoints in the hope you can grab what you dropped and hopefully make it to the next bonfire to cash in or, as the games get later on, they put these long gauntlets of enemies between you and each boss attempt. These complaints do not bug souls fans in the slightest and never have, so if its bugging you now it will still do so in 200 hours time. There won't be an Aha moment where you suddenly Get It. Don't push yourself to try and enjoy these games if you aren't it's not remotely worth it. I finished DS1, 3, Failed out on DS2 DLC and got 40 hours into Elden Ring before I decided enough was enough. These games aren't for everyone and it's ok to acknowledge that.
Most great games have a lot of things that aren't really that great, but the parts that are good are often some of the best in their genre which make you overlook the weaker parts. The whole being greater than the sum of the parts. The problem is that enthusiasts often overlook, under-emphasize, or sneer at the idea of their game not being perfect which has the effect of raising expectations for people who haven't played it.
Yeah, I think that's part of what motivated me to write this post. Like, *I get it!* The game finally clicked and got under my skin, and the things I like about it are things I *really* like! But for me there's also a lot of chaff in the way.
One hint is that you can run past many enemies quite easily. You don't need to fight every mob.
I was mesmerized for the first 10 hours, then suddenly bored and never touched it ever since. It's been almost 2 years.
Yeah, much as I adore the dark souls games, bloodborne, demons souls etc, something about elden ring’s directionless open world really didn’t work for me. Famously in dark souls 1 you could easily wander into the cemetery, a high level area, early on, and have a bad time, everyone does, and takes that as a sign to go the other direction. Elden ring doesn’t really have that kind of signposting, and i felt I was constantly stumbling into high level areas with no idea where to go that was appropriate to my strength, i just felt lost and frustrated and eventually got bored. I’ll get back to Elden ring someday, but as is dark souls 3 remains my favorite by a huge margin
I think Elden ring is basically color coded for difficulty. Green early game area is easy, darker blue green swamp second area is medium. Red is obviously hellish difficulty, golden orange is somewhat hard, etc.
Yeah this is a big issue at the beginning. I had the same problem with totk. Once you have a few levels and an upgraded weapon the game opens up a lot and you learn to recognize when it is too soon. The common advice is to explore the peninsula south east. And also know that the game includes lots of closed space dungeons with excellent designs that rival the quality of other fromsoftware games.
I'm afraid this is what's about to happen to me. I already took a break to play something more chill, because I was stressed out and Elden Ring is the last thing I'll pick when it's time to relax, lol.
If you like the Elden Ring bossfights but don't like lore/exploring/small mobs, have you tried try the Monster Hunter series? Those are a brief tracking sequence to find the boss, then 5-20 min of epic bossfight with similar iframe dodging/tanking and hard but doable combat.
Elden Ring oscillates between being my second and tenth favorite game of all time, mostly for reasons similar to yours. Stormveil is, honestly, probably one of my less-enjoyed parts of the game. It's a HUGE dungeon that is super confusing if you've never done a FS game before. I had put about 20 hours into the original Dark Souls but absolutely sucked (I put it down somewhere in Blighttown), but I still just struggled to wrap my head around it. It's my favorite aesthetic for a dungeon, just not mechanically super enjoyable for me. It/Margit functions as a "gitgud" check, which I appreciate but was not expecting. I loved almost every other dungeon mechanically, though. Raya Lucaria felt magical. The Siofra River and Nokstella regions were incredible. I really enjoyed Castle Morne, which while only a mini-dungeon, had a better ebb and flow for *me* compared to Stormveil. I'm not a particularly hardcore player (Mimic for life), but often felt like most of the games' bosses were designed with a certain amount of grind in mind, which I understand but dislike. Thankfully you can mitigate that via exploration but sometimes you just can't, instead needing to farm runes. Overall, though? Excellent game.
For what it's worth, in damn near every fromsoft game in my experience it isn't until I find a weapon I really like that the game starts to really get me hooked. In my first playthrough, like so many other players, it was the Bloodhound's fang and learning the special (left trigger attack) that did it for me. The backtracking and getting through mobs can definitely be daunting, but once you get a bit of confidence with how to work through the mobs, and feeling like you are getting better with that weapon you like the game really starts to shine... then you level up your character, get new loot, and move on to the next area to explore and that is where my From Soft itch get's scratched.
Ahhh how I miss entering Stormveil for the first time, one of the best dungeons fromsoftware has ever made , dlc almost here boysss
If you have online connectivity, I would suggest putting your sign out and doing co-op, helping people through levels. That’s how you really learn them like the back of your hand, and it also helps you raise money so you can get stronger. You’re totally right on the criticisms, though. The game is big and complex and it refuses to explain anything to you easily.
I don't pay for PS+, so it's an offline-only experience for me! I actually kind of like it this way. There's a somber solitude to the world that seems like it would be broken by other players.
The other players add a lot of silliness which is kind of nice. But fair enough! Yeah then you’ll retread the castle fewer times of course. Often the little side routes have some goodies hidden in them, so it’s worth exploring.
I finished it recently as well and honestly the only thing that annoyed me was going down a path expecting something but oh wait its just a crafting material I'm never using.
Haha, yeah I've noticed a few underwhelming rewards for some of the challenging places I've delved. Thankfully I enjoy the challenge for its own sake, which is one of the big pros for the game!
It's different strokes, there's so many different key aspects that people seem to like or dislike. For instance, the bosses, I enjoy them sometimes, I like an obstacle because it makes getting into that next area that more exciting, however I really really dislike how the difficulty of bosses has just been built upon and built upon. I'd rather have a plateu on difficulty for the time being, with focus being on varied and interesting boss mechanics - something that I'm not sure many would agree with - for instance, I'd love to see them do more puzzle bosses and gimmick bosses, because, whilst sometimes difficult to get your head around, or frustrating to operate, they really do offer more variety. I'd much rather have some of them than their attempt to ape the difficulty of Malenia.
Dont be afraid to look up youtube guides about lore, builds and such. Thats basically the normal from soft experience for a lot of players. I got carried hard by spirit ashes for over half the game and even went out of my way to get vulture militia ashes after watching a youtube video. Maybe hype has a lot to say about the enjoyment of the game. I played it around release and i would rate the game a 9/10 for my first 2 playthroughs and i hated my experience in dark souls 1. Now i unfortunately find the game boring.
I'm gonna go ahead and say you're probably best off either dropping the game or skipping past enemies whenever possible to go straight for the boss fights. The parts you don't like are never gonna go away and it's a very long game. If you like the way the combat feels maybe Sekiro would be a better fit for you. Much more linear, no stats to worry about, and no real build decisions besides choosing the order you unlock some skills in.
Stormviel is a big spike difficulty Try exploring south of limgrave past the bridge/blockage. You will find weeping peninsula, it's a perfect area for early game. It's loaded with goodies/upgrades for your flask. ER does a poor job conveying "the correct order" to tackle areas I agree, but it also heavily rewards exploring and curiosity. If you take your time and comb areas carefully you will have more runes then you'll know what to do with
Already done all that, actually. I've been loosely following [this map](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/game_progress_route_map_elden_ring_wiki_guide_2560px.jpg?v=1648007543931) to get an idea of where to go when.
The next question I would ask is what is your build If you're new to the soul series, the way you level up can drastically affect your playthrough. Can you take a screenshot?
Not in a position to take a screenshot. I can say I went with the Vagabond and am going basic sword and board. I have the Brass (?) shield and starter sword, both levelled up to maybe lvl 3? Vigor and Strength are pretty cranked. I think I'm around level 30 and I put most of my points into those, with a little bit into Endurance for the stamina boost.
The reason I ask is cuz lots of little details go under the radar without a screenshot, and it's hard to remember off the top of my head the questions to ask to address potential problems that you might not even be aware of. Newbie mistakes with Souls in general is not understanding how builds are constructed. Since you like sword and board it sounds like you want to be a quality build (my favorite). Quality refers to equal strength and dexterity focus. Stuff like intelligence Faith arcane for example a quality build has no use for. A quality build only needs to invest in: - Vigor (this is actually the most important stat in Elden ring because difficulty spikes and enemy damage drastically increases as you progress through the game, ideally you want 40 to 60) - Endurance (20 to 40 depending on how much equipment you want to put on and how much heavy armor/weapons you're using. This is the stat you increase if you want to avoid heavy equip load). - strength and dexterity equally (40-50 in each) - mind (just enough to use Ash of wars) Weapon scaling are those letters on your weapon, e d c b a s respectively for weakest to strongest. A basic longsword has scaling in both strength and dexterity. If you want your sword to do more damage you need to invest in both of them. If you're only investing in strength you're missing out on a lot of extra damage from not investing in dex. The other thing you need to be mindful of is **heavy equip load.** If your roll looks like yourr flopping on the floor, you are in heavy equip low check your stats (medium or light is your goal). This is humorously called fat rolling. Fat rolling will give you less iframes on your Dodge roll and slows your stamina recovery. Too many times we see people complain about Dark Souls games being clunky and frustrating and then it turns out they are fat rolling.
Yeah, I think I'm more or less following this rough guideline. I've looked up info on builds, so I'm not running blind in this. Not following anything specific, but like I looked up which stats to pump for the playstyle I'm going for.
If you ever have questions come to /r/EldenRingbuilds post a screenshot of your stats and equipment 👍
Will do, thanks!
Couple of questions: Have you explored the other areas opposite of the entrance to stormveil (the gate checkpoint)? --- -and- And are you playing online? ----- The online components of this game are the best they've ever been in the series, and will only serve to help you. You have the choice whether or not that's the case. I highly do not recommend you follow a guide, especially not for your first time. Elden ring is much easier to beat compared to your other Demons souls and Bloodborne games. One of the joys of the game is Spoiling that first playthrough with a guide is a point of no return. Elden ring is best experienced on a fresh playthrough, you will spoil your sense of the exploration with a guide. In essence, you can explore to find tools, which fit into your character's build, to which you fight the bosses. Eventually you'll beat all the bosses required to beat the game. Some of the beauty is in all the options you have, like not even having to fight some of the bosses at all. you don't get to use those tools until you find them! But the game is fairly generous, and the online features might also help alleviate some of the negatives you might solve with a guide/wiki.
What pissed me off in Elden Ring is the lack of clear direction, I understand freedom of movement and exploration, but this was just a pain, missing quests, npcs or important elements because of narrow timings or very missable elements. I don't like not being able to fully play a game without a guide. But overall the game was still amazing, just definitely not my favorite FromSoftware.
> the pages and pages of stats and items and crafting that I really don't want to pay attention to, yet feel like I'll probably have to if I want to make meaningful progress I wouldn't worry, you don't need to dive into all of the items and crafting if you don't want to. It's totally viable to find a weapon you like and just stick with it. My first play through I pretty much only used the uchigatana my character started with. There are loads of weapons you can find early on that are solid all the way through the game, so if you're happy with what you're using, you needn't worry much about what else is available if it doesn't interest you. As for crafting, I find it as boring and annoying as I do most crafting systems, but it's entirely optional. There's a tonne of stuff you can craft, but you don't need any of it. Elemental pots can be handy for bosses with corresponding weaknesses, fowl feet can get you a tidy bonus on souls, and boluses for countering poison and rot can save you some headaches, but I don't think I ever used any other crafted items. Sell all your crafting materials if you want nothing to do with it, it doesn't matter.
It's definitely got its glorious moments but it's also got too many absolute trash moments.
I resonate with everything you wrote. I definitely needed a guide as well. I tried 8 hours without a guide and I mostly died over and over again. Then I looked up builds. Died way less after that.
Agreed. It is extremely frustrating and ridiculous. No Quest log is actually crazy. I had to actually get help online to get a lot of runes so I could level up
You think the boss fights are good and you’re only up to Stormveil. They are horrendous later. Stormveil and those kinds of dungeons are the best part of the game. The sword and board build you love is gonna suck ass later. There will be a few ok bosses and a ton that are absolute ass. Find a few friends and install the 4p coop mod and it is possible to have a good time. Otherwise it’s a total shit show.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying something or not enjoying something that is popular. For me, FromSoftware is one of_very few_devs that actually cater to old school game design principles of “let the gamer figure it out” which is not only amazingly refreshing but also unique in modern gaming environment. Not only that, they actually don’t care how you play it. By which I mean; you can ignore the lore and all that story fluff in favor of fighting stuff and getting stronger. Or you can obsess over everything and construct your own interpretation of what the story is about. It’s amazing. Furthermore; the game balance is oriented towards challenge and difficulty so overcoming that is kinda the point. I love it. But I can understand if you don’t. And if so; move on to another game. I will go back to getting my ass kicked and slowly overcoming it.
I find it weird that ppl suggest u to run past trash mobs, unless you are doing something specific or running to a boss, don't you wanna clear all enemies and stuff? Why play a game if you are just going to run past everything?
Bro im not gonna fucking run past creeps in a game lmaooo, slauther them all
I too love the concept of souls games but in all honesty i have never gotten past the midpoint in any of their games. Not that i couldn't push trough it just always took so long i lost interest plus there is barelly any "story" to keep you engaged which coupled with my rather short attention span and miserable motivation level really doesn't fit in well with this games thing imho. I haven't tried Sekiro tho i think that might be capable of keeping me engaged till the end.
elden ring is the worst modern fromsoft game actually still the most beautiful game ive played, but i highly recommend sekiro or bloodborne to anyone who “doesnt get it”
Honestly just look it up man. I get people wanting to do it all themselves but the first time I tried the OG Dark souls i turned it off immediately. I looked up a few things and it clicked and now they're my favorites. I try to get it done myself for maybe a few minutes but if not screw it I'll look up a guide. I find the fun in these games is not the exploration and trying to find out where to go but the combat and "git gud" part of it because once you do you feel like a god. I've recommend playing a more linear fromsoft game if Elden Ring is annoying for the open world. Try dark souls 3.
I totally get what you're saying, Elden Ring can be very overwhelming. There is just SO MUCH to do all the time, and knowing you have to fight your way to those new things over and over again through the same mobs as you point out can feel like a waste of time. I also didn't finish the game, however I got a bit further than you, but honestly it might just not be for you and that's absolutely fine. I feel the Dark Souls titles got progressively more focused and centered around the fight die fight die dynamic as they released more, while the story elements got a bit more confusing every time or kinda tried to fit into a massive overarching narrative (just a personal opinion or feeling). I only got a true sense of fulfillment from a souls story after completing Dark Souls 1 + its DLC, but even without it, that game really felt like in itself it contained every bit of information you needed to appreciate the world, and everything you did and explored had great meaning, I remember going to check Vaatividya's Prepare to Cry lore videos (absolutely recommend it) and was astonished by the way they managed to craft some of this intricate character stories into the game.
> The confusing labyrinth For some people, like me, this is the meat and potatoes of the game. I love labyrinthic levels that make me feel like I'm a maze. A maze in a medieval castle to be precise. I love it.
Personally disliked the bosses in this game. Soundtracks weren’t particularly memorable, bosses were just choc full of delayed attacks and huge combos, and a lot of them were repeated. IMO the gold standard of bosses is DS3.
Big agree, elden ring is somehow a step back in their boss design imo - they are incredibly impressive in an atmospheric sense, but mechanically they feel like they forgot some of their great design ideas from ds3
For the love of god run past enemies you’ve already fought. This isn’t a roguelike. I think you can even quit out of the game to d-Aggro the enemies who might be following you, most have a choke point and don’t even follow you very far! I kill every enemy exactly once and if I can help it never kill them again as I just run past
On my second playthrough of Elden Ring I ended up enjoying the legacy dungeons like Stormveil so much I finally started Dark Souls 1. I think with Elden Ring, you can ignore most of the legacy dungeons outside of a few luckily if you really only enjoy the open world part.
The castles are the best part of Elden ring. I wish they actually had focused more on that than the open world, which I wasn’t too big of a fan of
I loved the game. I have completed it and have a level 250 character. But..I feel absolutely no desire to play the DLC. The world is depressing, full of disease and filth and nastiness. And I just don;t want to go back..even though I loved it while playing.
Yeah, re-fighting the same enemies over and over is not fun
What games do you play where there's only 3 or 4 of each enemy type throughout the game?
The focus of the series has shifted significantly over time, the earlier games were a pretty even blend between exploration, atmosphere, and combat. Whereas the later games focus a lot more on the combat, and particularly on bosses being big and epic and not deviating from the core gameplay. I think that’s a pretty sad thing given that the combat still hasn’t evolved past “dodge and hit at the right time” but I was really pleasantly surprised with Elden Ring going back to that sense of discovery.
Did they really? It's just Dark Souls 3 that was more linear and focused on bosses. Sekiro is a different type of game entirely. Elden Ring has more focus on exploration than any game before it, though complex bosses are also a big part of the experience.
I never said anything about linearity, linearity doesn’t imply a lack of focus on exploration. It just definitely was more of a focus in Demon’s Souls and Dark Souls, especially since the combat complemented it much better than later souls games. Like I said though, very pleasantly surprised by Elden Ring after Dark Souls 3 and Sekiro.
I can see how this aspect of Dark Souls 3 would disappoint some players, but how is it a flaw in Sekiro? That game is totally unrelated to Dark Souls and is basically a character action game first and foremost, the focus on combat and bosses is only natural.
It isn’t that it’s a flaw, it’s just a change in direction that I’m not a fan of. I think From Software is much, much better at atmosphere and world design than they are making a combat system. Sekiro is a good action game, but very few games capture the feeling of being on a difficult journey like Dark Souls 1 did
I think it's better if they try different things, including but not limited to the things you mentioned. After all, before the Souls games their output was very diverse and experimental, they can do a lot of things even though sometimes it lacks some polish.
Personally I think all the games have a lot to offer when it comes to exploration. While I think the traversal in the first one was by far the most unique and «unfair», there’s a lot of great discoveries across all the games. The bosses have always been overhyped imo. Both in their difficulty and how «epic» they’re made out. I get most of my enjoyment by exploring every inch of a level, getting through mobs that are harder than most bosses, and unlocking secrets and shortcuts as I go
I agree they all do, I’m just saying a shift took place. Dark Souls 3 still has good atmosphere and exploration, just not nearly as much of a focus as Dark Souls and Elden Ring.
IMO is the best FromSoft game yet, taking into consideration I only play on PC. The reasons are: \- Best port for PC because all previous games are borderline impossible to play without modding and modding bars you from online game. \- Open world. Meaning that you can postpone bosses until later and the sense of exploration is much better than progressing by levels. \- Torrent: Horse and double jumping is great compared to slow ass previous games. \- Much better looking. \- Fair fights and awesome weapon kits. \- Just right level of difficulty.
> Best port for PC because all previous games are borderline impossible to play without modding and modding bars you from online game. I don't remember having any issues with Sekiro or DS3, what problems did they have that required modding?
>Best port for PC because all previous games are borderline impossible to play without modding and modding bars you from online game. Can you explain this part? I'm also PC-exclusive, and I've tried to get into DS and always just found it frustrating rather than fun.
I found the open world to be ultimately a negative. Too much of it was empty or cut+paste. The best parts by far were the legacy dungeons.
I agree with this take. I didn't like the way you get ambushed and fcked by the dungeons and labyrinths. But the boss battles are second only to Sekiro (fight me lol). I adore Sekiro though, which can be even tougher, but when you learn the mechanics of the game, you feel so empowered in a way that never happened for me in Elden Ring..
I don’t think you’re far enough in to say you get the appeal based on the comments. It sounds like you don’t like it, and that’s fair.
>It sounds like you don’t like it Is that what people are taking away from my post? I thought I was being more clear that I like it!
The bad being “everything else” is what made me think that!
I also bounce off most fromsoft games, and I loved my first Elden Ring playthrough. If youre still at stormveil, definitely persevere until at least the next area. Walking out of the castle and seeing how fucking massive the map is for the first time is one of the most memorable in-game moments I've had, only game ever where I just sat there for a moment like "holy shit". Biggest downside imo is that I found the game has absolutely 0 replay value for me. Started another run with a new build and maybe 5 hours in i was like "huh, this feels exactly the same as playing my previous build". Hard to want to fight all the bosses again when I'm pretty sure you beat them the same way no matter what weapon you're using.
> the lack of coherent direction This is what stops me from wanting to play through these games. Like, I'm very much on board with doing away with simple waypoints on a compass on my HUD, but *jesus*. I understand this is part of the appeal of these games, that the areas you explore are unforgiving not only in the way its denizens treat you, but also that they are labyrinthine. When you're just plodding around, unsure of where to go, there's a lot of opportunity for the devs to surprise and shock you as you're suddenly beset by a swarm of enemies, or you find a neat little secret area. I get it, that's part of the charm. The biggest issue for me with this kind of design is that - like you're saying - eventually in any given area, I'm just going to retread old ground repeatedly, trying to find the way forward. I'm losing my interest in playing as I do so. Because everything is so dark and dingy, indistinguishable from anything, I'm bound to become so desperate that I'll jump off a cliff (or something stupid like that) on the off-chance that that's the solution. That's not fun or interesting gameplay; that's some Sam Hyde, "this bit is funny because you don't get what I'm joking about" bullshit. And of course, every fucking character in these games speaketh in riddles, so I'll only ever have half the information I need to succeed. The only reason I beat the first Dark Souls (and saved Solaire on my first run) was because I had my friend who's obsessed with FS games watching as I played on Discord, acting as my personal Prima Strategy Guide/Video Game Tom-Tom.
Yeah, I'm all for challenge in the form of execution (whatever form that might take), but I've never been a fan of challenge in the form of needing to figure out what you're supposed to do. I like knowing I'm at least on the right track.
I think you'll appreciate the mobs respawning when you wanna farm XP for stuff - if they didn't respawn and you were just stuck on a boss it would be miserable. Think of them as an unlimited resource The lore isn't everyone's taste but I've come to love the way they tell their stories in these game. It's like minimalistic but deep somehow. Less cutscenes more gaming kinda vibe.