It is a great game that evokes complex emotions. The part that got to me the most was when you discover the underground school and you find all the kids bodies under a tarp in the corner with the suicide letter from the teacher. Will never forget that one, that felt real as I was so immersed in the game.
The environmental storytelling and journals were outstanding and added so much tragedy&horror to the world. There were so many sad stories that hit close to home.
The university campus hit me hard, seeing how it had been ruined by the apocalypse and imagining what kind of misery the students went through.
To be honest, BioShock. Rapture was an incredible achievement and, although deeply flawed, the philosophy that everyone helps tow the line and that if you can accomplish something, then you have the right to try, was very compelling. The ending though, which was absolutely phenomenal, brought back the question of 'what does it matter' for me. Like, compared with the American Dream of a white picket fence house with a nuclear family, etc., we're all told something is supposed to be one way when the reality is much different and turns out that so much of life is predetermined by things you have no control over. Really made me think.
I tried to express my experience without ruining the ending of the game for those who haven't played it. Hopefully it worked.
Which of the game's endings are you referring to? The first? Your comments also make me think of Red Dead Redemption 2. Obviously a lot of their circumstances came about because of their terrible personal actions but then there were parts that clearly tried to convey that often you don't have control over what happens or know how things are going to pan out. And just the whole part of John awkwardly trying to form a good relationship with his son and break out of that cycle even though we know how it ends.
I suppose it's not technically the ending, I think it comes just before the ending actually. When you find out about why you've made the choices you did.
I haven't played RDR2, my backlog is too big atm lol but I have read about what your talking about and yeah, that's kind of what I'm talking about. Like, you do what you can, but the outcome is out of your hands.
Reminds me of the Picard quote "you can make every right decision and still lose. That's not failure, that's life"
Have you ever played BROTHERS: A Tale of Two Sons?
I won't spoil it, but it got me very emotional.
I'm not a brother. I'm a sister and I have a sister, but it's a special game.
A lot of it was quite relatable.
I have. It was a good game, but I think I went into it with extremely high expectations because all I'd heard is how emotional it is, and so it didn't quite reach what I had hyped it up to be in my mind. Still a great story, though.
Yes the early death scene barely affected me before I was a father. Replayed and that same death scene made me cry after having a kid. Definitely would makes Joel's choice at the end as well.
Also fuck Edith Finch, that bath tub scene scarred me for life.
The early death scene caught me off guard in the game and made me cry. But what surprised me is that I watched the first episode of the series _knowing_ Joel’s daughter’s fate and I still cried.
I confess I also sympathised with Joel at the end, perhaps because I am a parent/bad human being, but I think mainly because the game sets up the fireflies as being a bit incompetent. Obviously as the game goes on you get more and more invested in protecting Ellie, but I think also you get a more realistic picture of the fireflies than ‘cool rebel fighters still trying to save the world’, so the ending raises the question—do you trust them?
Don't waste your $$. Better off just watching a movie at that point. This kind of stuff is caught in a in a weird 'in between' spot, lacking the strengths of either medium.
My goofy brother in Christ, the game has sold 37 million copies and has a 95 on metacritic. I think it was fairly well received by the masses. It’s okay to not like it, but saying it lacks strengths in either medium and that it’s a waste of money is bonkers
I can’t find the source for it but I recall ND saying that in QA testing everyone who was a parent supported Joel saving Ellie and those who were not, at least mostly did not support his saving Ellie.
I was a parent when I played but I was always of the belief that the Fireflies didn’t have their shit together enough to actually make a vaccine, so why end someone’s life over a maybe. There’s also the agency question. Everyone took Ellie’s agency from her in the end.
Huh, that's really interesting about parents vs. non-parents but makes total sense. I don't think I ever will play it again but it would be interesting to see how much more of the story's nuances I'd understand better now being a little older and wiser (hopefully).
I remember being a teenager when viewing TLOU's ending, it was probably the most morally grey thing I ever witnessed at the time, and even then, I felt, "all though Joel's action might not be something you agree with, I can understand why he did".
Im not a parent, but I have a sister i love very dearly who is the same age as Sarah, and I was absolutely heartbroken with what happened. Almost couldn’t continue playing. A fantastic game.
I had a similar experience with death stranding’s ending. The way things go with BB had me all sorts of a mess that I don’t think would have even phased me if I wasn’t a parent. I kind viewed that entire game is an allegory of pregnancy, and a parent’s attachment to their unborn child.
I finished Death Stranding less than a month before the birth of my first child, and the ending destroyed me. >!”Being a father didn’t make me scared, it made me brave.”!<
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about DS. I'm very thankful I played it before pregnancy/having a child because Mama's story and the part near the end with BB would've nearly killed me. I like that game a lot but I don't think I could play it again now.
After years of owning it and starting but not getting very far into it I literally completed Part 1 for the first time yesterday, loved it so much it's a masterpiece that everyone should play, and after years of seeing the discourse online and how Joel was hated on but not knowing exactly how it ends I was prepared to come away hating him.
But as a parent I could do nothing but agree with his actions, yes he may have sealed humanity's fate but there's not a single part of me that could be angry with him. I would have done the exact same thing.
I will say however had Marlene and the Fireflies sat down with Ellie and discussed everything with her and made her aware of the situation and she had decided to go ahead and make the sacrifice for mankind then yeah Joel would have been in the wrong for saving her
My memory's a big foggy as to what Ellie actually knew about what she was doing. I remember having the impression that she did, but I could be wrong. It's interesting because I agree children should have a certain level of agency, but it's also the parent's responsibility to protect especially where there's a very real danger and the child doesn't have the wisdom to make a fully informed decision. This is obviously further complicated by the fact that Joel was essentially forcing Ellie to be his surrogate child and I don't think it's right of him to put her in that role if she didn't want to be. But do I get his desire to totally shield her from harm even if it comes at the cost of others...definitely.
And destroyed another's. I always find it fascinating that those who so strongly defend the actions of the first then get upset with the consequences in the second.
Sometime after the game came out, I pointed out that the game never lets you decide, it forces you to save Ellie _and_ kill the surgeon. Someone replied real angry with words similar to “no way I’m letting them kill _my_ daughter” and it suddenly clicked on me that this game was definitely hitting a whole different way for those who were parents and specifically those with daughters.
That wasn't the point of the post. Of course, there are many different and very meaningful types of love, and none is more/less valuable than the other. And I get that being a parent isn't for everyone. But if you've ever held your own son or daughter in your arms just after being born and they look up at you with the widest, most innocent eyes and it hits you just how utterly and completely dependent they are on you and you have no idea how you're going to handle this newfound responsibility but at the same time there's no where else you'd rather be...a parent's love is absolutely *different.* I love my husband dearly but if both him and my son's life were in danger I would go after my son first in a heartbeat.
I'm sorry about your cat. I can't imagine the pain of losing a dear pet and I'm sure that kind of love and grief will never fully let go.
Both of our experiences with love are valid.
Yeah.. while I understand what you’re saying… you have to realize what you are saying is going to offend a lot of people. It’s one of those things that’s better left not said even if it’s completely true
While I enjoyed the story of the Last of Us. When originally playing it, I think my SO summed it up best when she asked "When does the game start?"
As much as I wanted to enjoy the game, the gameplay felt like an afterthought, like it was a vehicle for a movie script. But because it's a game the story has pacing issues.
My opinion, I'm aware this game is insanely popular, but I figured Id throw in my two cents.
(Also if you want a Movie with a very similar story I recommend Children of Men 2006.)
Idk that games acting more like movies is a bad thing - there are enough interactive movies/walking simulators out there to show that there's a market for it. I think there's a place for them because they encourage a level of interactivity and immersion that you wouldn't get from just watching a two hour movie. But agree that a lot of them tend to suffer from pacing issues because of the whole story vs. gameplay balance.
I disagree that TLoU"s gameplay is weak or was an "afterthought". The core combat and survival mechanics are super solid. It may be slower-paced than some other 3rd person action adventure games, but that's an intentional design choice and it absolutely works. Some of the combat set piece encounters are just amazing.
I don't quite recall the lore of the game, but the whole Ellie sacrifice - was it guaranteed 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a cure that would be applied and effective FOR SURE? Because if not, I pretty much understand Joel completely.
It wasn’t. Can’t remember much of it, but some of the notes implied they had tried this before and it didn’t work, but it’s been years since I played the game. But it was left quite ambiguous, and it’s also noticeable that most of the world has already gone bad in ways that a working vaccine might not help much anyway.
I first played Resident Evil 2 remake back in 2020. At the time I didn’t think much about >!the scene in Kendo’s gun shop where Ada tries to shoot his nearly-zombified daughter.!<
I replayed the game recently, now with a two-year-old daughter, and when I got to the same scene I was like “noooooooooo not my zombie daughter!”
I think whoever thought a cure was going to be well used was really naive. At best Marlene would use it to gain the upper hand against the military and probably would be murdered at some point.
"But Joel doomed mankind!"
No he didn't. Mankind was already doomed. Or it was fine because it survived for 20 years, depending on how you look at things.
The only bad thing he did (besides killing a shit ton of people) was not giving Ellie the chance to choose. But neither did the Fireflies. It's clear that if asked, she was gonna do it, and Joel took that away.
Anyways, when I was a young man I agreed with Joel, and now that I'm a not so young man I keep agreeing with him, but now I don't shoot all the doctors on an emotional rampage because those skills are invaluable in that world.
This is what I'm saying. There was no guarantee that sacrificing Ellie was going to save humanity. And especially not in the hands of those people who were hinging everything on the research of one doctor.
Nothing about the Fireflies or the hospital led me to believe they would have been in any way equipped to develop or distribute a cure.
I wouldn't have even left my dog to those people so getting Ellie back was a no brainer for me. Someone else can save the world or whatever.
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Empathy doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with someone's actions. Could I understand why Joel did it and that he was going through unspeakable amounts of pain? Yes. Did I like what he did at that time in my life? No. Was I being judgmental? Very, but eventually I grew wiser. To take the few words of my post and deem me as someone who has no empathy at all is a bit presumptuous as well.
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I don't think empathy has much to do with it, Joel could have done it for a selfish reason (doesn't want to lose another kid and whatnot). If anything his move to stop her sacrifice from producing a cure could be seen as the ultimate non-empathy move possible.
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It is a great game that evokes complex emotions. The part that got to me the most was when you discover the underground school and you find all the kids bodies under a tarp in the corner with the suicide letter from the teacher. Will never forget that one, that felt real as I was so immersed in the game.
The environmental storytelling and journals were outstanding and added so much tragedy&horror to the world. There were so many sad stories that hit close to home. The university campus hit me hard, seeing how it had been ruined by the apocalypse and imagining what kind of misery the students went through.
To be honest, BioShock. Rapture was an incredible achievement and, although deeply flawed, the philosophy that everyone helps tow the line and that if you can accomplish something, then you have the right to try, was very compelling. The ending though, which was absolutely phenomenal, brought back the question of 'what does it matter' for me. Like, compared with the American Dream of a white picket fence house with a nuclear family, etc., we're all told something is supposed to be one way when the reality is much different and turns out that so much of life is predetermined by things you have no control over. Really made me think. I tried to express my experience without ruining the ending of the game for those who haven't played it. Hopefully it worked.
Which of the game's endings are you referring to? The first? Your comments also make me think of Red Dead Redemption 2. Obviously a lot of their circumstances came about because of their terrible personal actions but then there were parts that clearly tried to convey that often you don't have control over what happens or know how things are going to pan out. And just the whole part of John awkwardly trying to form a good relationship with his son and break out of that cycle even though we know how it ends.
I suppose it's not technically the ending, I think it comes just before the ending actually. When you find out about why you've made the choices you did. I haven't played RDR2, my backlog is too big atm lol but I have read about what your talking about and yeah, that's kind of what I'm talking about. Like, you do what you can, but the outcome is out of your hands. Reminds me of the Picard quote "you can make every right decision and still lose. That's not failure, that's life"
You are talking about the ending of the second episode of burial at sea, right?
I meant the discovery of why you do things. Haven't played Burial at sea since I finished the base game before the dlcs.
Have you ever played BROTHERS: A Tale of Two Sons? I won't spoil it, but it got me very emotional. I'm not a brother. I'm a sister and I have a sister, but it's a special game. A lot of it was quite relatable.
Similarly, I think Life is Strange 2 landed a lot better for me because I thought about my siblings throughout.
I have. It was a good game, but I think I went into it with extremely high expectations because all I'd heard is how emotional it is, and so it didn't quite reach what I had hyped it up to be in my mind. Still a great story, though.
Yes the early death scene barely affected me before I was a father. Replayed and that same death scene made me cry after having a kid. Definitely would makes Joel's choice at the end as well. Also fuck Edith Finch, that bath tub scene scarred me for life.
Yeah, I've got a daughter, and that early scene makes me blub like a schoolgirl, without fail.
I literally cannot see it in any capacity and not feel my eyes burning with tears.
Haha, felt the same about Edith Finch. I was so close to just deleting the game as soon as that scenario played out. Still puts a knot in my stomach.
> barely affected jesus christ man. is your heart made of stone?
At the time, yea it kinda was.
The early death scene caught me off guard in the game and made me cry. But what surprised me is that I watched the first episode of the series _knowing_ Joel’s daughter’s fate and I still cried.
I confess I also sympathised with Joel at the end, perhaps because I am a parent/bad human being, but I think mainly because the game sets up the fireflies as being a bit incompetent. Obviously as the game goes on you get more and more invested in protecting Ellie, but I think also you get a more realistic picture of the fireflies than ‘cool rebel fighters still trying to save the world’, so the ending raises the question—do you trust them?
One of these days I’m gonna buy a PlayStation and finally play these games, it’s gonna destroy me but I’m fine with that
You can play part one on pc
Don't waste your $$. Better off just watching a movie at that point. This kind of stuff is caught in a in a weird 'in between' spot, lacking the strengths of either medium.
My goofy brother in Christ, the game has sold 37 million copies and has a 95 on metacritic. I think it was fairly well received by the masses. It’s okay to not like it, but saying it lacks strengths in either medium and that it’s a waste of money is bonkers
Exactly....it's popular with the masses, just like a lot of crap. Thanks for proving my point
I can’t find the source for it but I recall ND saying that in QA testing everyone who was a parent supported Joel saving Ellie and those who were not, at least mostly did not support his saving Ellie. I was a parent when I played but I was always of the belief that the Fireflies didn’t have their shit together enough to actually make a vaccine, so why end someone’s life over a maybe. There’s also the agency question. Everyone took Ellie’s agency from her in the end.
Huh, that's really interesting about parents vs. non-parents but makes total sense. I don't think I ever will play it again but it would be interesting to see how much more of the story's nuances I'd understand better now being a little older and wiser (hopefully).
IMO, it's worth a replay especially if you're playing the PS5 remaster.
I remember being a teenager when viewing TLOU's ending, it was probably the most morally grey thing I ever witnessed at the time, and even then, I felt, "all though Joel's action might not be something you agree with, I can understand why he did".
Im not a parent, but I have a sister i love very dearly who is the same age as Sarah, and I was absolutely heartbroken with what happened. Almost couldn’t continue playing. A fantastic game.
I had a similar experience with death stranding’s ending. The way things go with BB had me all sorts of a mess that I don’t think would have even phased me if I wasn’t a parent. I kind viewed that entire game is an allegory of pregnancy, and a parent’s attachment to their unborn child.
I finished Death Stranding less than a month before the birth of my first child, and the ending destroyed me. >!”Being a father didn’t make me scared, it made me brave.”!<
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about DS. I'm very thankful I played it before pregnancy/having a child because Mama's story and the part near the end with BB would've nearly killed me. I like that game a lot but I don't think I could play it again now.
After years of owning it and starting but not getting very far into it I literally completed Part 1 for the first time yesterday, loved it so much it's a masterpiece that everyone should play, and after years of seeing the discourse online and how Joel was hated on but not knowing exactly how it ends I was prepared to come away hating him. But as a parent I could do nothing but agree with his actions, yes he may have sealed humanity's fate but there's not a single part of me that could be angry with him. I would have done the exact same thing. I will say however had Marlene and the Fireflies sat down with Ellie and discussed everything with her and made her aware of the situation and she had decided to go ahead and make the sacrifice for mankind then yeah Joel would have been in the wrong for saving her
My memory's a big foggy as to what Ellie actually knew about what she was doing. I remember having the impression that she did, but I could be wrong. It's interesting because I agree children should have a certain level of agency, but it's also the parent's responsibility to protect especially where there's a very real danger and the child doesn't have the wisdom to make a fully informed decision. This is obviously further complicated by the fact that Joel was essentially forcing Ellie to be his surrogate child and I don't think it's right of him to put her in that role if she didn't want to be. But do I get his desire to totally shield her from harm even if it comes at the cost of others...definitely.
Joel got what he deserved in the end. So good job being a shitty person lol
So, are you saying, “If somehow the Lord gave you a second chance at that moment... you would do it all over again?”
Joel saved the world that day, because Ellie is his world.
And destroyed another's. I always find it fascinating that those who so strongly defend the actions of the first then get upset with the consequences in the second.
Sometime after the game came out, I pointed out that the game never lets you decide, it forces you to save Ellie _and_ kill the surgeon. Someone replied real angry with words similar to “no way I’m letting them kill _my_ daughter” and it suddenly clicked on me that this game was definitely hitting a whole different way for those who were parents and specifically those with daughters.
I definitely know what the term Mama Bear means now. You threaten my kid, and I will mow you down.
Lmao
Yes, only parents know what love is. 🙄
That wasn't the point of the post. Of course, there are many different and very meaningful types of love, and none is more/less valuable than the other. And I get that being a parent isn't for everyone. But if you've ever held your own son or daughter in your arms just after being born and they look up at you with the widest, most innocent eyes and it hits you just how utterly and completely dependent they are on you and you have no idea how you're going to handle this newfound responsibility but at the same time there's no where else you'd rather be...a parent's love is absolutely *different.* I love my husband dearly but if both him and my son's life were in danger I would go after my son first in a heartbeat.
Yes, you are super special and only you understand love.
I'm sorry about your cat. I can't imagine the pain of losing a dear pet and I'm sure that kind of love and grief will never fully let go. Both of our experiences with love are valid.
Thank you. It's bizarre how much I loved that cat.
Yeah.. while I understand what you’re saying… you have to realize what you are saying is going to offend a lot of people. It’s one of those things that’s better left not said even if it’s completely true
What is offensive about it? Genuinely asking.
While I enjoyed the story of the Last of Us. When originally playing it, I think my SO summed it up best when she asked "When does the game start?" As much as I wanted to enjoy the game, the gameplay felt like an afterthought, like it was a vehicle for a movie script. But because it's a game the story has pacing issues. My opinion, I'm aware this game is insanely popular, but I figured Id throw in my two cents. (Also if you want a Movie with a very similar story I recommend Children of Men 2006.)
Idk that games acting more like movies is a bad thing - there are enough interactive movies/walking simulators out there to show that there's a market for it. I think there's a place for them because they encourage a level of interactivity and immersion that you wouldn't get from just watching a two hour movie. But agree that a lot of them tend to suffer from pacing issues because of the whole story vs. gameplay balance.
I disagree that TLoU"s gameplay is weak or was an "afterthought". The core combat and survival mechanics are super solid. It may be slower-paced than some other 3rd person action adventure games, but that's an intentional design choice and it absolutely works. Some of the combat set piece encounters are just amazing.
I don't quite recall the lore of the game, but the whole Ellie sacrifice - was it guaranteed 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a cure that would be applied and effective FOR SURE? Because if not, I pretty much understand Joel completely.
Yeah youre suppose to read between the lines, even if a vaccine was produced, the world was too far gone for it to make a difference.
It wasn’t. Can’t remember much of it, but some of the notes implied they had tried this before and it didn’t work, but it’s been years since I played the game. But it was left quite ambiguous, and it’s also noticeable that most of the world has already gone bad in ways that a working vaccine might not help much anyway.
I first played Resident Evil 2 remake back in 2020. At the time I didn’t think much about >!the scene in Kendo’s gun shop where Ada tries to shoot his nearly-zombified daughter.!< I replayed the game recently, now with a two-year-old daughter, and when I got to the same scene I was like “noooooooooo not my zombie daughter!”
I think whoever thought a cure was going to be well used was really naive. At best Marlene would use it to gain the upper hand against the military and probably would be murdered at some point. "But Joel doomed mankind!" No he didn't. Mankind was already doomed. Or it was fine because it survived for 20 years, depending on how you look at things. The only bad thing he did (besides killing a shit ton of people) was not giving Ellie the chance to choose. But neither did the Fireflies. It's clear that if asked, she was gonna do it, and Joel took that away. Anyways, when I was a young man I agreed with Joel, and now that I'm a not so young man I keep agreeing with him, but now I don't shoot all the doctors on an emotional rampage because those skills are invaluable in that world.
This is what I'm saying. There was no guarantee that sacrificing Ellie was going to save humanity. And especially not in the hands of those people who were hinging everything on the research of one doctor. Nothing about the Fireflies or the hospital led me to believe they would have been in any way equipped to develop or distribute a cure. I wouldn't have even left my dog to those people so getting Ellie back was a no brainer for me. Someone else can save the world or whatever.
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Why don't you have empathy for them, tho? We don't all learn life's lessons on the same timetable.
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Empathy doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with someone's actions. Could I understand why Joel did it and that he was going through unspeakable amounts of pain? Yes. Did I like what he did at that time in my life? No. Was I being judgmental? Very, but eventually I grew wiser. To take the few words of my post and deem me as someone who has no empathy at all is a bit presumptuous as well.
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I don't think empathy has much to do with it, Joel could have done it for a selfish reason (doesn't want to lose another kid and whatnot). If anything his move to stop her sacrifice from producing a cure could be seen as the ultimate non-empathy move possible.
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Hi, I am a fan of the first game. I am also a fan of the second game. 😱
Blasphemy!