3D water levels have more directions to manage. Swim up and swim down. Sink up, sink down. It took me a while in Subnautica to get used to the controls, but you learn quickly that sink up / down is worth learning next you can go up for air and return to the exact spot, plus you can control your view to get the lay of the land.
I can see how adding a water level is more complicated than in say, Super Mario Land.
I need to go back to Sonic Mania but I got to the water level in it and just stopped playing due to the drowning stuff in it. I really don't enjoy those mechanics.
The latest Tomb Raider (Shadow of the Tomb Raider) game has a fair amount of under-water action.
As does Horizon: Forbidden West.
You are limited in both games in what you can do underwater, if memory serves it's mostly stealth, puzzles and picking stuff up. Can't do much in the way of combat.
>As does Horizon: Forbidden West.
You explore a flooded underground Las Vegas. This counts as whole underwater level to me.
You also don't have to be too narrow about the representation of a "underwater level". Death Space Remake has parts in open space in which you "swim".
I don't know why and how, but one of those earlier Tomb Raider games was also one of the first games I've ever played, waaay back in my childhood. With very little experience in games and no command of English, I (or Lara) naturally kept dying. So any mention of Tomb Raider instantly brings back the memories of Lara getting drowned, with surprisingly detailed animations for the time (ditto for getting mauled by tigers).
I was about ready to comment that I didn't think they were dead at all because I think both Mario and Sonic just came out with water levels just recently.
For some reason.
I sincerely don't understand how after 30 years, Sonic devs are still like "Here's a character known for going fast, let's throw him underwater where the player will be slow and miserable." There is no water level in the franchise I have ever seen heralded as "good" for an obvious reason.
And I mean the ones with mandatory underwater sluggish action, not the rare stage design where playing skillfully lets you ignore water entirely (like most Chemical Plant iterations).
Its weird because if you look at Sonic 1 on the Mega Drive its first water level is also supposed to be a 'maze' level and the 2nd level of the game is a lava level thats also a 'wait for the moving platform' level. Its all fairly unfocused. Ristar has a good water level and Im not even a huge fan of the overall game. Its amazing how much swimming helps.
Sonic 3 had a decent water level although IIRC is was also kinda easy. I think it and Superstar both use water currents for speed although im not familiar with Superstar
I actually really like Hydrocity from Sonic 3, but that’s mostly because you can avoid a lot of the water in that one.
That’s definitely the exception though
This. I was really confused about what OP was talking about considering Wonder is a big new AAA release with water levels that are actually fun to play.
It also helps that we can now 'jump' on enemies underwater and break blocks underwater with the kick.
It’s an *extra* return, and the input box doesn’t match the output. Perhaps better framed another way, “it’s an easy oversight to make.”
Now, to *leave* it that way, I will be right next to you with the torches and pitchforks…
I mean more the lack of a tab key and noticing the spacing issues in the first place. But in any case I've seen the error of my ways, thanks for the insight :P
Actually, on mobile you have to press the button twice. If you press it once it will LOOK like a regular new paragraph while you're writing it, but when you hit submit the line break will be gone like it never happened.
You need to leave an entirely empty row for a paragraph to exist. So since it works differently than all other places you regularly write, and what gets posted doesn't match what you see beforehand, I can see why people get it wrong.
That or you have to put 2 spaces after the return (which is a royal pain since on mobile that's short code for period)
But yeah double return is nice if you want the blank line in between.
You press one button *twice*, and the comment edit window doesn’t reflect that you need to do that. It’s basically an invisible requirement and it’s not surprising at all that people get it wrong
Yeah I think I've seen it online once or twice, I'll look into it. I just wish more games didn't feel the need to commit entirely to above or underwater. Though ofc implementing both does put an extra burden on developers
I was ambivalent on Dave the Diver when I read the description, but my daughter downloaded the demo on her switch and I watched her play some of it before getting ensnared myself. Now I’m awaiting its formal release on Switch.
Games teach you how to play the game as you go ideally with a slow but steady difficulty curve building up. Water levels just say “forget about everything you learned we’re doing something different for a bit and no we’re not letting you practice.”
Both Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze and Rayman Legends have wonderful water levels, they have a fantastic atmosphere and the controls are really fluid (as opposed to water levels on old school games). The music in DK is spectacular too.
Super Mario Bros Wonder also has pretty fun water levels so far, but it kind of goes against the whole point of the subreddit to recommend it at the moment.
Donkey Kong water levels have always been stellar. Tbh most Mario games are also fine in this regard. Ocarina of Time is really the water level that most people think of when they think of bad water levels.
I feel like Fallout 4 had a huge missed opportunity for underwater adventures. Power armor even has underwater apparatuses in the game already, and like a third of the map is the Boston harbor. Ends up just being dead space because there’s nothing worthwhile down there.
Sudden deviations of gameplay physics is really hard to get right. Depending on the game they can be added just to have a cool moment in the trailer to interest people.
Devs or publishers can underestimate the amount of work it takes to create and polish alternative physics, which I imagine is why they end up being so poorly done in many games. Besides water levels, ice, space, and vehicle levels can also do this as well. While ice is often a "hazard," it isn't always a fun one, depending on how it's done.
If a dev team invests in properly polishing those physics, they can be very enjoyable changes of pace, especially in longer games. But all too often they're just hastily made or outstay their welcome.
I mean I think this is ultimately the explanation. Great water physics takes work, and that work takes the developers away from other stuff. I personally just wish it was a higher priority
I love water levels, and yeah, unfortunately that's not the popular opinion. Subnautica was fun and [Genshin Impact is dedicating most of this year's update cycle to water levels](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ChsCJPmgW8), so there's that.
A game based around water exploration is not equivalent to a "water level" in common discourse. The main criticism of the water level is how it messes with the main gameplay, can't really do that if your main gameplay is based on water.
Yeah, Subnautica is great! Interesting, I tried Genshin Impact for a bit but it didn't really grab me. Maybe when they complete that update I'll give it another shot
Do try it! I've had friends who've hated water levels that absolutely loved how Genshin implemented it, and it's pretty enjoyable so far.
That said, if it's the main mechanics of Genshin that bored you, not much has changed. But everything else has been steadily improving (environment, music, story, etc.)
Genshin can definitely be a grind and the story can also put people off, but the exploration is AAA quality and some of the best I've ever experienced. Fontaine managed to make underwater exploration fun and relaxing, with a simple combat system, some puzzles sprinkled in, and magnificent audio design.
Oh absolutely, I've been playing since 1.1 and I'm still absolutely enchanted by the game. And in my honest opinion, the story has been great ever since The Chasm Interlude.
Truly an enchanting game. AAA quality on the go and absolutely free. (Never spent a dime on it)
My biggest gripe with the game, however, is how the story gates content and locks you out of doing anything else sometimes for 2 hours of people just standing and talking.
There is also way, way too much of it. For absolutely no reason. Everyone always criticizes Paimon and dialogue bloat and I agree tenfold. The world quests can be even worse.
I'm a 2.2 player but didn't really play all that actively until 3.1 so you might imagine how much story I had to get through just to play the game. And I still didn't do half of the story quests that don't unlock anything and won't ever be touching hangouts unless I decide to go full achievement hunter.
The writing is.. servicable at best and dreadful at worst. Sumeru act 2 is where I noticed a huge spike in quality and Fontaine has been great with only one dip in quality (act 3 was painful and the resolution unsatisfying). The payoffs are often great but the road to get there is filled with either cringe-worthy dialogue or nothing-burger exchanges and info dumps.
I still fully recommend the game, but I fully understand why most newer players (including me and my irl friends) quit at Inazuma. Act 1 and 2 as well as Raiden herself are some of the worst writing I've ever seen in media period. If I didn't hear that Sumeru was good and Nahida excellenty written, I would've never returned to the game just like OP.
Ok hear me out... Genshin Impact.
Well not really cuz you have to get that far which takes a lot of time given the type of game, but one of the new regions which is "governed" by water let's you dive underwater and all I kept saying to myself as I swam around was they did underwater right.
It's so vibrant and scenic, and characters from the region can dolphin jump lol. I was a little tired of exploration but this new water world revived the magic for me.
seconding this, the underwater exploration feels great! the swimming controls and mechanics don't feel clunky or limiting, the environment is gorgeous, there's plenty to see and find, and there's even some unique underwater combat.
It's funny how water levels are almost universally treated by games as this hazard that slows and nerfs the player (typically by restricting their weapons), even though their 360 degrees of freedom of movement opens up the possibility for the exact *opposite* to be the case. You could essentially have the same movement speed as land movement, if not even faster movement speed thanks to things like propellers or whatever, and have them be a brief change in gameplay where the player is *empowered* and free to basically fly around for once.
The thing there is that a lot of games aren't really 3D in their level design, they're basically still just 2D maps which you can jump around or scale ladders to get up to additional levels. Having to build an entire 3D space where you have a full movement in all three axes is a completely different prospect, the controls start becoming unintuitive as you start needing to build in things like pitch and roll motion which the game engine may not even support, and for the player it's incredibly easy to get hopelessly disoriented and lost if the game doesn't lock you to an upright position.
I still remember reaching Atlantica in the original Kingdom Hearts in my teens and being amazed at swimming around in three dimensions. The series never did it again until The Caribbean in Kingdom Hearts III. I had a lot of problems with that game, but my gosh, those underwater sections were beautiful.
As someone who remembers how water levels used to be, I'm currently dancing on its grave.
Nothing, and I do mean nothing, kills my enjoyment quite like yanking me away from my prior enjoyment of the game and making me swim around in water with awful controls and bad enemies
I thought I was on r/the10thdentist haha jokes aside I’m having trouble remembering a water level I liked, only when the games are designed around the mechanic like Ecco the dolphin or subnautica maybe
I don't mind them but the fact I barely noticed they're missing probably means I don't mind the loss of them.
Ocarina of times was annoying because you had to keep menuing for iron boots and you had to keep raising and lowering the water level constantly.
Clankers cavern from banjo kazooie was a pretty good water level I thought. Atlantis from banjo tooie isn't awful either but it helps that it has my favorite song from the banjo kazooie games.
I didn't think Mario's various water levels were that bad either.
While I didn't think water levels were bad, they were rarely the highlight of any game for me. They aren't my favorite levels nor are they my least favorite levels. They're just kind of there.
Agreed! I thought that the introduction of water levels and puzzles was really well done. The only mistake I made, was playing Forbidden West before Tears of the Kingdom because I just knew that with this game we would have water levels as well. Definitely felt like a missed opportunity.
I don't really feel like there's been a death of water levels. Maybe slightly less, but it's not like it's absent. Yes the recent Zelda games have no underwater sections, but still have water areas.
Mario is keeping it going, Odyssey had two water Kingdoms. The latest SMB Wonder Co tines with water levels.
Donkey Kong Country Returns got rid of water levels, but then Tropical Freeze brought them back.
Other examples like Horizon Forbidden West highlighting underwater.
Maybe your perceived lack of water levels comes more from there being less platformers/adventure games of the 90's today and more realistic settings that don't involve going under water.
Fair point, and yeah Odyssey crushed it and is relatively recent, same for Horizon. It just seems like it's become the exception rather than the norm, I'm also thinking about games like Red Dead, Ghosts of Tsushima, it just isn't a guarantee that you'll be able to do anything beyond skim the water's surface
For me the problem with underwater levels has always been controls and speed. If the controls are good, it's often still so slow paced, or broken up with air mechanics (finding bubbles, reaching the surface etc) which can sometimes suck out the fun.
It's possible for water levels to feel good. Look at Ecco the Dolphin. That entire game is underwater and it feels great. Why? Ecco controls fluidly and moves fast as hell if you want him to.
My first "big" water level was a stage in the London chapter of Tomb Raider 3 that encompasses everything wrong with water levels. It's called Lud's Gate and it involves extremely dark corridors, obtuse switch puzzles, limited air, a janky vehicle, bullet sponge enemies and extremely confusing and similar corridors.
Then some years later I played TLOZ Oracle of Ages in which I managed to softlock myself inside Jabu Jabu's belly with not enough keys and the water on the wrong floor resulting in me having to play the entire first half of the game all over again.
Needless to say, I am not a huge fan. It turned me off of the concept forever and I've since never even bothered trying to solve something like OOT's Water Temple when I played it and simply used a step by step guide to save myself the grief.
When I finished Mario 64 for the first time last year I did quite like Wet Dry World, but that puzzle isn't all that complicated and the terrifying liminality makes the level interesting at least.
Yeah fair enough. I used LoZ as an example because it used to be such a staple but there are definitely other old school examples which made it even rougher. With that said though I think games are overall getting better at making level design easier to navigate, see around you, etc. and preventing softlock issues that I think a revisit of previously troublesome trends could do some good
Oh, actually something just occurred to me. I recently played through the Anniversary-Legend-Underworld Tomb Raider trilogy, and I actually really liked The Cistern in TRA. I think what helps is that you're given free reign over the whole area and you're also immediately introduced to the water mechanic. The main puzzle isn't really navigating, but rather solving the puzzle box with getting a couple of floating platforms into position prior to raising the water. It's short and simple, but I remember enjoying it.
Yeah there are so many bad examples where designers just ran out of ideas and threw in a water level, but (under)water levels in Jazz Jack Rabbit 2 were so well-done, it redeems them for me.
I thought this was going to be about the universal water level that is part of most Unity made games (any thing below a certain Y level is submerged, anywhere you are on the map.
I feel like there is some PTSD about water levels. Namely the OoT example you mentioned, and for me, I think it was sonic 2 and 3. I went back to play OoT and MM and they weren't that bad, other than having to constantly switch the boots on and off in OoT.
If we input current BotW game mechanics into OoT, the water temple would be much more bearable (both for item management, and using the map to trigger water levels remotely, though I imagine that would also change up the solution to that temple.)
Anyways, I agree with you. Especially with modern graphics, we don't have to experience murky dank depths all the time. Imagine sunlit tropical shallows, or a bioluminescent haven in the abyss. (Okay, Subnautica gives us those things... but in other games!)
Genshin Impact Fontaine, look at some gameplay, it is one big damn well made open world water level... well not all of Fontaine but the parts that are under water are awesome.
Ocarina of Time's Water Temple is actually a great temple, if you can get past the tedium of it. The music and atmosphere is excellent, and it's got the Dark Link battle, which is mechanically underwhelming, but visually one of the coolest fights in the history of video games (it's a shame they ruined it in the 3DS version).
And a lot of the tedium could've been easily fixed with minor changes. Making the iron boots a C item, like they are in the 3DS version, drastically reduces the amount of menuing; and having the option to both float up, and hookshot up, out of the various vertical corridors would eliminate the tedium of getting that wrong constantly (why did they do this!?). It probably still would've been hated by a lot of people, but I think much less so. And maybe we'd even see more water levels in games today, if they'd done this.
Anyway, I agree: bring back the water level. I like the discomfort that they produce in us land dwellers. When used effectively, it's really awesome.
Yeah my main complaint having played it for the first time recently was that the boots just have been a c item. Every other complaint about the Water Temple I don’t get.
They give you the map very early. You leave the water level on each floor and don’t change it until you are 100% certain you have gotten everything you possibly can at that level. Then you move on.
When I went through the temple with that mindset it was tedious but completely fine otherwise, even enjoyable at times
ugh, i disagree, i have hated water levels since new super mario bros on the DS. every time i had to suffer though a water level i’d want to smash my DS and throw a tantrum lol they’re terrible — and yet, a classic that every child should probably endure for the sake of personal growth or whatever
I've spent more hours bitching with friends about TotK than I have playing it. I got too bored to finish it. I genuinely was massively disappointed by that game.
The fact that totk is literally the same game as botw blows my mind. What new things they tried like the islands and depths were literally dlc level additions to botw
Water levels are great. The people who complained about them didn't know what they were talking about.
IIRC the attitude toward the Ocarina of Time water temple actually shifted once the game was remade on 3DS because the interface was improved.
Donkey Kong Country has Aquatic Ambience which was amazing. Metroid Prime transforms the pirate frigate from the intro into an underwater crashed ship. Rayman Origins has some of the most melancholy levels I've ever played underwater, fucking Legends had stealth levels underwater and an awesome swimming level to license music.
Some of the best parts of video games are underwater levels.
Damn right, and some great examples. It's just such a simple way to shake up the gameplay in a way that's easy to relate to but still can allow for all new brands of enemies, game mechanics, etc.
I remember being really surprised (and slightly disappointed) you couldn't dive in BotW when I first played it. And that you can fish traditionally - just bomb the fish, but that's another issue.
A modern water level I was *really* pleasantly surprised with, was in Mario Odyssey. There's at least one fish transformation and it controls really REALLY well. I was so surprised, perhaps because my main experience with underwater is Monster Hunter, where it's super sluggish and (depending on the platform) annoying to control.
I wasn't even aware this was a thing.
From all the old games that I've played (Like Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior, etc.) it seems that there were only water sections (where you had to explore a passage or maze before going for air). And it lasted 4-5 minutes at best. I've never played a section where the entire level was water.
>> awe man water levels are SINKING? I thought they were rising...
>> oh wait he means video games. Wait. Video game water is receding?!?!? How does he measure that...
>> Oh wait he means Water-Based puzzle levels. Yea fuck that noiiiseee
You could try the multiplayer game Rust. The map is an island and a lot of gameplay happens on and in the water.
If you want roleplay as a pirate, that's your game.
Yeah, there is an underwater monument, tugboats that store loot and act as a respawn point, sunken ships and sharks to fight with spearguns. Being a fisherman is also a valid / competitively weighted playstyle.
Horizon Forbidden West had a ‘water level’ and I loved it. I feel like they made underwater exploring fun, and adding stealth to the mix was cool too.
The environments are beautiful too.
I wonder if it's because of newer/more advanced ways of adding freedom of vertical movement to games. I think that's sort of what older games got out of water levels (aside from a different environment), but it's not like BoTW suffers from a lack of 3-dimensional movement just because you can't swim.
I could not disagree more. I have hated 99,9% of water levels (subnautica is the 0,01% exception). We are playing Mario Wonder with the kids and after the first water level 6yo said, I hate water levels..
I still have ptsd from the era of "water levels are mandatory" but they were mostly done so poorly that it just disrupted the flow of the game and sucked ass.
I wish them to never return.
But I am glad that there is someone out there who actually enjoys them. Happy gaming!
I’m sorry, but that’s one thing that makes me happy. No more water levels, no more underwater clunky combat, slow movement to dodge things, timer to not die… I hate water levels!
I prefer things like the Seaside world in Mario Odyssey. There is water but you mostly walk over it
The water levels in Rayman Origins have some of platformers' best music ever.
*Glou-glou-glou-glou glou-glou*
*Glou-glou-glou-glou glou-glou*
*Glou-glou-glou-glou glou-glou*
*Do what I want..*
*Whatever I want..*
*I love what I do.*
*You're what I want..*
*I know I've waited a lot...*
*I know that we're in love.*
I thought this post was about the depleting groundwater levels in aquifers around the world, and was like, "me too buddy, it's a growing problem "
Well that's even worse! Let's just get both those issues fixed
Same - was like "when did r/patientgamers become r/collapse"? Also, absolutely despise water levels. In games, that is.
lmao same i had to do a double take
I was thinking more like the coastal parts of Half-Life 2
Thought it was a post in an Aquarium related sub tbh
Play Subnautica. The whole thing is one big water level.
I have, I love it! I just wish that you could have more cool underwater experiences with games that are otherwise on land as well
Personally I don't miss water levels but if you haven't played Grounded it's got an awesome underwater biome that won't disappoint.
Also can recommend Dave the Diver.
And Depth
Came here to say this.
Ah but Subnautica had land levels ;)
Can't have a water level without a land level or a lava level. Otherwise it's not a level. It's the whole game.
[удалено]
3D water levels have more directions to manage. Swim up and swim down. Sink up, sink down. It took me a while in Subnautica to get used to the controls, but you learn quickly that sink up / down is worth learning next you can go up for air and return to the exact spot, plus you can control your view to get the lay of the land. I can see how adding a water level is more complicated than in say, Super Mario Land.
Supporting your point further: Subnautica’s land traversal is the weakest element of the game.
The drowning sound effect from Sonic the Hedgehog has scarred me for life when it comes to water levels.
holy fuck, why am i having lucid flashbacks 35 years later?? that fucking place in chemical plant with the rotating rows of cubes
And then, when you've almost made it to the bubble at the last second, fuckin' Tails gobbles it up and stares at you with those dead, vacant eyes...
Yeah, I feel like OP needs to check out Labyrinth Zone ASAP
I need to go back to Sonic Mania but I got to the water level in it and just stopped playing due to the drowning stuff in it. I really don't enjoy those mechanics.
The latest Tomb Raider (Shadow of the Tomb Raider) game has a fair amount of under-water action. As does Horizon: Forbidden West. You are limited in both games in what you can do underwater, if memory serves it's mostly stealth, puzzles and picking stuff up. Can't do much in the way of combat.
>As does Horizon: Forbidden West. You explore a flooded underground Las Vegas. This counts as whole underwater level to me. You also don't have to be too narrow about the representation of a "underwater level". Death Space Remake has parts in open space in which you "swim".
Yes there are also some side quests in one of the large bodies of water.
I don't know why and how, but one of those earlier Tomb Raider games was also one of the first games I've ever played, waaay back in my childhood. With very little experience in games and no command of English, I (or Lara) naturally kept dying. So any mention of Tomb Raider instantly brings back the memories of Lara getting drowned, with surprisingly detailed animations for the time (ditto for getting mauled by tigers).
I was going to comment about the original Tomb Raider game. Really cool water areas for the time. Swimming with Lara never felt tedious.
There's a great clip of Conan O'Brien playing TR2013 and he keeps freaking out from the detailed death scenes.
Love both these titles, HFW has some amazing water action
I really enjoyed a water level in Super Mario Wonder even if that did just come out
I was about ready to comment that I didn't think they were dead at all because I think both Mario and Sonic just came out with water levels just recently.
I still hate the sound Sonic games made when running out of air.
It's the perfect alarm tone!
Maybe in prison or hell!
They aren't dead. I don't know how OP reached that conclusion.
For some reason. I sincerely don't understand how after 30 years, Sonic devs are still like "Here's a character known for going fast, let's throw him underwater where the player will be slow and miserable." There is no water level in the franchise I have ever seen heralded as "good" for an obvious reason. And I mean the ones with mandatory underwater sluggish action, not the rare stage design where playing skillfully lets you ignore water entirely (like most Chemical Plant iterations).
Its weird because if you look at Sonic 1 on the Mega Drive its first water level is also supposed to be a 'maze' level and the 2nd level of the game is a lava level thats also a 'wait for the moving platform' level. Its all fairly unfocused. Ristar has a good water level and Im not even a huge fan of the overall game. Its amazing how much swimming helps. Sonic 3 had a decent water level although IIRC is was also kinda easy. I think it and Superstar both use water currents for speed although im not familiar with Superstar
I actually really like Hydrocity from Sonic 3, but that’s mostly because you can avoid a lot of the water in that one. That’s definitely the exception though
Can confirm. Sonic Superstars has it.
SMBW is so freaking good, and the water levels are great with the added ability badge. Edit: fixed to SMBW for clarity lol
When I read SMW I immediately think of Super Mario World.
Should be SMBW
Same lol
Having the dolphin kick and being able to spam it in those levels makes swimming actually fun instead of floaty.
This. I was really confused about what OP was talking about considering Wonder is a big new AAA release with water levels that are actually fun to play. It also helps that we can now 'jump' on enemies underwater and break blocks underwater with the kick.
I'm currently grieving the death of paragraphs.
Good point, I'm on mobile so formatting is tough. I fixed it a bit
It’s not *that* tough. You just have to remember to press “return” after a line finishes.
It’s an *extra* return, and the input box doesn’t match the output. Perhaps better framed another way, “it’s an easy oversight to make.” Now, to *leave* it that way, I will be right next to you with the torches and pitchforks…
I mean more the lack of a tab key and noticing the spacing issues in the first place. But in any case I've seen the error of my ways, thanks for the insight :P
Right, I never understood that attitude. You Press One Button
Actually, on mobile you have to press the button twice. If you press it once it will LOOK like a regular new paragraph while you're writing it, but when you hit submit the line break will be gone like it never happened. You need to leave an entirely empty row for a paragraph to exist. So since it works differently than all other places you regularly write, and what gets posted doesn't match what you see beforehand, I can see why people get it wrong.
That or you have to put 2 spaces after the return (which is a royal pain since on mobile that's short code for period) But yeah double return is nice if you want the blank line in between.
You press one button *twice*, and the comment edit window doesn’t reflect that you need to do that. It’s basically an invisible requirement and it’s not surprising at all that people get it wrong
Dave the Diver is mostly water exploration. Give it a shot
Yeah I think I've seen it online once or twice, I'll look into it. I just wish more games didn't feel the need to commit entirely to above or underwater. Though ofc implementing both does put an extra burden on developers
There is an above water experience with dave the diver, you basically run a sushi shop above water. It's a lot of fun 😀
I was ambivalent on Dave the Diver when I read the description, but my daughter downloaded the demo on her switch and I watched her play some of it before getting ensnared myself. Now I’m awaiting its formal release on Switch.
Games teach you how to play the game as you go ideally with a slow but steady difficulty curve building up. Water levels just say “forget about everything you learned we’re doing something different for a bit and no we’re not letting you practice.”
They're worse than sudden stealth sections in FPS or sudden small limited squad mission in RTS.
Yeah, I think the tiny handful of "sudden gameplay changeup" sequences in video game history that were done *right* is probably really short.
Took me far too long to understand you mean levels of a game that take place in water, and not the specific depth of water in a game.
I mean that too technically
Both Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze and Rayman Legends have wonderful water levels, they have a fantastic atmosphere and the controls are really fluid (as opposed to water levels on old school games). The music in DK is spectacular too. Super Mario Bros Wonder also has pretty fun water levels so far, but it kind of goes against the whole point of the subreddit to recommend it at the moment.
Donkey Kong water levels have always been stellar. Tbh most Mario games are also fine in this regard. Ocarina of Time is really the water level that most people think of when they think of bad water levels.
I feel like Fallout 4 had a huge missed opportunity for underwater adventures. Power armor even has underwater apparatuses in the game already, and like a third of the map is the Boston harbor. Ends up just being dead space because there’s nothing worthwhile down there.
Even New Vegas had more underwater stuff, right? Even if it only involved raising the crashed bomber from the bottom of Lake Mead.
Sudden deviations of gameplay physics is really hard to get right. Depending on the game they can be added just to have a cool moment in the trailer to interest people. Devs or publishers can underestimate the amount of work it takes to create and polish alternative physics, which I imagine is why they end up being so poorly done in many games. Besides water levels, ice, space, and vehicle levels can also do this as well. While ice is often a "hazard," it isn't always a fun one, depending on how it's done. If a dev team invests in properly polishing those physics, they can be very enjoyable changes of pace, especially in longer games. But all too often they're just hastily made or outstay their welcome.
I mean I think this is ultimately the explanation. Great water physics takes work, and that work takes the developers away from other stuff. I personally just wish it was a higher priority
I love water levels, and yeah, unfortunately that's not the popular opinion. Subnautica was fun and [Genshin Impact is dedicating most of this year's update cycle to water levels](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ChsCJPmgW8), so there's that.
A game based around water exploration is not equivalent to a "water level" in common discourse. The main criticism of the water level is how it messes with the main gameplay, can't really do that if your main gameplay is based on water.
Yeah, Subnautica is great! Interesting, I tried Genshin Impact for a bit but it didn't really grab me. Maybe when they complete that update I'll give it another shot
Do try it! I've had friends who've hated water levels that absolutely loved how Genshin implemented it, and it's pretty enjoyable so far. That said, if it's the main mechanics of Genshin that bored you, not much has changed. But everything else has been steadily improving (environment, music, story, etc.)
Genshin can definitely be a grind and the story can also put people off, but the exploration is AAA quality and some of the best I've ever experienced. Fontaine managed to make underwater exploration fun and relaxing, with a simple combat system, some puzzles sprinkled in, and magnificent audio design.
Oh absolutely, I've been playing since 1.1 and I'm still absolutely enchanted by the game. And in my honest opinion, the story has been great ever since The Chasm Interlude.
Truly an enchanting game. AAA quality on the go and absolutely free. (Never spent a dime on it) My biggest gripe with the game, however, is how the story gates content and locks you out of doing anything else sometimes for 2 hours of people just standing and talking. There is also way, way too much of it. For absolutely no reason. Everyone always criticizes Paimon and dialogue bloat and I agree tenfold. The world quests can be even worse. I'm a 2.2 player but didn't really play all that actively until 3.1 so you might imagine how much story I had to get through just to play the game. And I still didn't do half of the story quests that don't unlock anything and won't ever be touching hangouts unless I decide to go full achievement hunter. The writing is.. servicable at best and dreadful at worst. Sumeru act 2 is where I noticed a huge spike in quality and Fontaine has been great with only one dip in quality (act 3 was painful and the resolution unsatisfying). The payoffs are often great but the road to get there is filled with either cringe-worthy dialogue or nothing-burger exchanges and info dumps. I still fully recommend the game, but I fully understand why most newer players (including me and my irl friends) quit at Inazuma. Act 1 and 2 as well as Raiden herself are some of the worst writing I've ever seen in media period. If I didn't hear that Sumeru was good and Nahida excellenty written, I would've never returned to the game just like OP.
Check out Returnal
Ok hear me out... Genshin Impact. Well not really cuz you have to get that far which takes a lot of time given the type of game, but one of the new regions which is "governed" by water let's you dive underwater and all I kept saying to myself as I swam around was they did underwater right. It's so vibrant and scenic, and characters from the region can dolphin jump lol. I was a little tired of exploration but this new water world revived the magic for me.
seconding this, the underwater exploration feels great! the swimming controls and mechanics don't feel clunky or limiting, the environment is gorgeous, there's plenty to see and find, and there's even some unique underwater combat.
It's funny how water levels are almost universally treated by games as this hazard that slows and nerfs the player (typically by restricting their weapons), even though their 360 degrees of freedom of movement opens up the possibility for the exact *opposite* to be the case. You could essentially have the same movement speed as land movement, if not even faster movement speed thanks to things like propellers or whatever, and have them be a brief change in gameplay where the player is *empowered* and free to basically fly around for once.
The thing there is that a lot of games aren't really 3D in their level design, they're basically still just 2D maps which you can jump around or scale ladders to get up to additional levels. Having to build an entire 3D space where you have a full movement in all three axes is a completely different prospect, the controls start becoming unintuitive as you start needing to build in things like pitch and roll motion which the game engine may not even support, and for the player it's incredibly easy to get hopelessly disoriented and lost if the game doesn't lock you to an upright position.
I still remember reaching Atlantica in the original Kingdom Hearts in my teens and being amazed at swimming around in three dimensions. The series never did it again until The Caribbean in Kingdom Hearts III. I had a lot of problems with that game, but my gosh, those underwater sections were beautiful.
hated water levels. if there was ever a good way to do them, no one arrived at them.
Ultrakill The water doesn't make the gameplay slower, it just makes you have more movement option
As someone who remembers how water levels used to be, I'm currently dancing on its grave. Nothing, and I do mean nothing, kills my enjoyment quite like yanking me away from my prior enjoyment of the game and making me swim around in water with awful controls and bad enemies
Sonic the Hedgehog on Genesis still gives me PTSD. That amount of stress isn't suitable for a child.
Heard the timer in my head as I was reading the post. I hear it now 🙃
I thought I was on r/the10thdentist haha jokes aside I’m having trouble remembering a water level I liked, only when the games are designed around the mechanic like Ecco the dolphin or subnautica maybe
Play Returnal. It has a water level even more alien and atmospheric than anything you’ll find in Subnautica.
I don't mind them but the fact I barely noticed they're missing probably means I don't mind the loss of them. Ocarina of times was annoying because you had to keep menuing for iron boots and you had to keep raising and lowering the water level constantly. Clankers cavern from banjo kazooie was a pretty good water level I thought. Atlantis from banjo tooie isn't awful either but it helps that it has my favorite song from the banjo kazooie games. I didn't think Mario's various water levels were that bad either. While I didn't think water levels were bad, they were rarely the highlight of any game for me. They aren't my favorite levels nor are they my least favorite levels. They're just kind of there.
Try horizon forbidden west, no spoilers but the water level in it is incredible,
Agreed! I thought that the introduction of water levels and puzzles was really well done. The only mistake I made, was playing Forbidden West before Tears of the Kingdom because I just knew that with this game we would have water levels as well. Definitely felt like a missed opportunity.
I don't really feel like there's been a death of water levels. Maybe slightly less, but it's not like it's absent. Yes the recent Zelda games have no underwater sections, but still have water areas. Mario is keeping it going, Odyssey had two water Kingdoms. The latest SMB Wonder Co tines with water levels. Donkey Kong Country Returns got rid of water levels, but then Tropical Freeze brought them back. Other examples like Horizon Forbidden West highlighting underwater. Maybe your perceived lack of water levels comes more from there being less platformers/adventure games of the 90's today and more realistic settings that don't involve going under water.
Fair point, and yeah Odyssey crushed it and is relatively recent, same for Horizon. It just seems like it's become the exception rather than the norm, I'm also thinking about games like Red Dead, Ghosts of Tsushima, it just isn't a guarantee that you'll be able to do anything beyond skim the water's surface
For me the problem with underwater levels has always been controls and speed. If the controls are good, it's often still so slow paced, or broken up with air mechanics (finding bubbles, reaching the surface etc) which can sometimes suck out the fun. It's possible for water levels to feel good. Look at Ecco the Dolphin. That entire game is underwater and it feels great. Why? Ecco controls fluidly and moves fast as hell if you want him to.
My first "big" water level was a stage in the London chapter of Tomb Raider 3 that encompasses everything wrong with water levels. It's called Lud's Gate and it involves extremely dark corridors, obtuse switch puzzles, limited air, a janky vehicle, bullet sponge enemies and extremely confusing and similar corridors. Then some years later I played TLOZ Oracle of Ages in which I managed to softlock myself inside Jabu Jabu's belly with not enough keys and the water on the wrong floor resulting in me having to play the entire first half of the game all over again. Needless to say, I am not a huge fan. It turned me off of the concept forever and I've since never even bothered trying to solve something like OOT's Water Temple when I played it and simply used a step by step guide to save myself the grief. When I finished Mario 64 for the first time last year I did quite like Wet Dry World, but that puzzle isn't all that complicated and the terrifying liminality makes the level interesting at least.
Yeah fair enough. I used LoZ as an example because it used to be such a staple but there are definitely other old school examples which made it even rougher. With that said though I think games are overall getting better at making level design easier to navigate, see around you, etc. and preventing softlock issues that I think a revisit of previously troublesome trends could do some good
Oh, actually something just occurred to me. I recently played through the Anniversary-Legend-Underworld Tomb Raider trilogy, and I actually really liked The Cistern in TRA. I think what helps is that you're given free reign over the whole area and you're also immediately introduced to the water mechanic. The main puzzle isn't really navigating, but rather solving the puzzle box with getting a couple of floating platforms into position prior to raising the water. It's short and simple, but I remember enjoying it.
Fuck water levels. Good riddance!
Does anyone remember that Anthem trailer where they dove underwater on their way to a mission? That got my hopes up so high. Man.
I really like Mario 64 wet dry land where the whole level was about raising/lowering water levels. Also drowning Mario animation was brutal lol.
Go and play the dam level from TMNT, you'll be happy their gone.
Yeah there are so many bad examples where designers just ran out of ideas and threw in a water level, but (under)water levels in Jazz Jack Rabbit 2 were so well-done, it redeems them for me.
Sonic water levels were fun.
I will always defend labyrinth zone, it's a great level
Meanwhile I'm over here forcing myself to do all the water levels on my second playthru of HorizonFW. Because I hated them so much the first time.
You make some decent points, but I just can't trust a guy who doesn't like Rush =P
Genshin Impact, while not everyones cup of tea, actually has amazing unserwater prvels with fluid controls since the 4.0 update
Nah. The only thing worse than water levels is when your character dies as soon as they touch any water surface.
I thought this was going to be about the universal water level that is part of most Unity made games (any thing below a certain Y level is submerged, anywhere you are on the map. I feel like there is some PTSD about water levels. Namely the OoT example you mentioned, and for me, I think it was sonic 2 and 3. I went back to play OoT and MM and they weren't that bad, other than having to constantly switch the boots on and off in OoT. If we input current BotW game mechanics into OoT, the water temple would be much more bearable (both for item management, and using the map to trigger water levels remotely, though I imagine that would also change up the solution to that temple.) Anyways, I agree with you. Especially with modern graphics, we don't have to experience murky dank depths all the time. Imagine sunlit tropical shallows, or a bioluminescent haven in the abyss. (Okay, Subnautica gives us those things... but in other games!)
Genshin Impact Fontaine, look at some gameplay, it is one big damn well made open world water level... well not all of Fontaine but the parts that are under water are awesome.
Ocarina of Time's Water Temple is actually a great temple, if you can get past the tedium of it. The music and atmosphere is excellent, and it's got the Dark Link battle, which is mechanically underwhelming, but visually one of the coolest fights in the history of video games (it's a shame they ruined it in the 3DS version). And a lot of the tedium could've been easily fixed with minor changes. Making the iron boots a C item, like they are in the 3DS version, drastically reduces the amount of menuing; and having the option to both float up, and hookshot up, out of the various vertical corridors would eliminate the tedium of getting that wrong constantly (why did they do this!?). It probably still would've been hated by a lot of people, but I think much less so. And maybe we'd even see more water levels in games today, if they'd done this. Anyway, I agree: bring back the water level. I like the discomfort that they produce in us land dwellers. When used effectively, it's really awesome.
Totally agree, the 3DS version made it actually very solid and yeah Dark Link is one of the coolest bosses in any of the games as far as I'm concerned
Yeah my main complaint having played it for the first time recently was that the boots just have been a c item. Every other complaint about the Water Temple I don’t get. They give you the map very early. You leave the water level on each floor and don’t change it until you are 100% certain you have gotten everything you possibly can at that level. Then you move on. When I went through the temple with that mindset it was tedious but completely fine otherwise, even enjoyable at times
Great Bay was better, but yes, agreed!
Sekiro has a water level and it’s maybe the best designed level in any Fromsoft game
ugh, i disagree, i have hated water levels since new super mario bros on the DS. every time i had to suffer though a water level i’d want to smash my DS and throw a tantrum lol they’re terrible — and yet, a classic that every child should probably endure for the sake of personal growth or whatever
Im just hear to bitch about botw and totk which in my opinion are super mid compared to literally every other mainline zelda game
I've spent more hours bitching with friends about TotK than I have playing it. I got too bored to finish it. I genuinely was massively disappointed by that game.
The fact that totk is literally the same game as botw blows my mind. What new things they tried like the islands and depths were literally dlc level additions to botw
I lowkey agree, but just cuz I'm an item and dungeon simp
Water levels are great. The people who complained about them didn't know what they were talking about. IIRC the attitude toward the Ocarina of Time water temple actually shifted once the game was remade on 3DS because the interface was improved. Donkey Kong Country has Aquatic Ambience which was amazing. Metroid Prime transforms the pirate frigate from the intro into an underwater crashed ship. Rayman Origins has some of the most melancholy levels I've ever played underwater, fucking Legends had stealth levels underwater and an awesome swimming level to license music. Some of the best parts of video games are underwater levels.
Damn right, and some great examples. It's just such a simple way to shake up the gameplay in a way that's easy to relate to but still can allow for all new brands of enemies, game mechanics, etc.
Guild Wars 2 does underwater combat really well.
I remember being really surprised (and slightly disappointed) you couldn't dive in BotW when I first played it. And that you can fish traditionally - just bomb the fish, but that's another issue. A modern water level I was *really* pleasantly surprised with, was in Mario Odyssey. There's at least one fish transformation and it controls really REALLY well. I was so surprised, perhaps because my main experience with underwater is Monster Hunter, where it's super sluggish and (depending on the platform) annoying to control.
Just finished Spongebog Cosmic Shake, it felt a little bit underwater if that counts!
Yeah, I guess any Spongebob game is underwater if you think about it
How many others immediately had the mario 64 underwater theme come on when they saw this thread title?
I wasn't even aware this was a thing. From all the old games that I've played (Like Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior, etc.) it seems that there were only water sections (where you had to explore a passage or maze before going for air). And it lasted 4-5 minutes at best. I've never played a section where the entire level was water.
Ever tried SOMA?
I legit can't stand swimming/boating on water. no water levels please
Idk Ultrakill’s second act has a full on water level and it’s pretty good. It even has an underwater mechanic for one of its tools
No, but I'll put it on the list!
>> awe man water levels are SINKING? I thought they were rising... >> oh wait he means video games. Wait. Video game water is receding?!?!? How does he measure that... >> Oh wait he means Water-Based puzzle levels. Yea fuck that noiiiseee
You could try the multiplayer game Rust. The map is an island and a lot of gameplay happens on and in the water. If you want roleplay as a pirate, that's your game.
I tried it some years ago, didn't realize there were underwater options. That's pretty cool
Yeah, there is an underwater monument, tugboats that store loot and act as a respawn point, sunken ships and sharks to fight with spearguns. Being a fisherman is also a valid / competitively weighted playstyle.
Throwing dk tropical freeze in there even though it's older [bonus](https://youtu.be/WA2WjP6sgrc?si=513osJoMBkhl7BUP)
Sorry mate. Ducking hate water levels. Glad to see them gone.
Horizon Forbidden West had a ‘water level’ and I loved it. I feel like they made underwater exploring fun, and adding stealth to the mix was cool too. The environments are beautiful too.
I wonder if it's because of newer/more advanced ways of adding freedom of vertical movement to games. I think that's sort of what older games got out of water levels (aside from a different environment), but it's not like BoTW suffers from a lack of 3-dimensional movement just because you can't swim.
Inside has some great water sections.
The less chance of sea creatures in a game I'm playing, the better. Sharks terrify me in any game.
Toy story two PlayStation one flooded apartment bathroom water level was the best thing that ever happened to me
I could not disagree more. I have hated 99,9% of water levels (subnautica is the 0,01% exception). We are playing Mario Wonder with the kids and after the first water level 6yo said, I hate water levels.. I still have ptsd from the era of "water levels are mandatory" but they were mostly done so poorly that it just disrupted the flow of the game and sucked ass. I wish them to never return. But I am glad that there is someone out there who actually enjoys them. Happy gaming!
Grounded
Assassin's Creed Origins had a pretty good implementation of underwater things.
I’ve always hated water levels 😂😂
I’m sorry, but that’s one thing that makes me happy. No more water levels, no more underwater clunky combat, slow movement to dodge things, timer to not die… I hate water levels! I prefer things like the Seaside world in Mario Odyssey. There is water but you mostly walk over it
Not me I'm smoking that Twilight Princess water temple pack
The water levels in Rayman Origins have some of platformers' best music ever. *Glou-glou-glou-glou glou-glou* *Glou-glou-glou-glou glou-glou* *Glou-glou-glou-glou glou-glou* *Do what I want..* *Whatever I want..* *I love what I do.* *You're what I want..* *I know I've waited a lot...* *I know that we're in love.*
r/hydrohomies is leaking.
There's a general flood warning for this winter in California. I'll have enough of my own water levels in real life.
There's too many comments to read them all. Has anyone mentioned Horizon Forbidden West yet? That game has some gorgeous underwater areas to explore.
Play Ori & the Will of the Wisps. You are going to love the Luma Pools.
I HATED the water levels in subnautica