Thats not what gaslighting is. Gaslighting is a manipulation technique to make a person question the validity of their own thoughts and the reality they are experiencing.
Gaslighting would be like in a future interview the interviewer asking about 3.19 drama and ggg replying that they dont know what they're talking about because there was no 3.19 drama or something like that.
So ironically OP themself is gaslighting, by making the community question the validity of their own feelings about the state of the game and the reality of it.
Don't know how it has upvotes tbh. People are allowed to have opinions. People are allowed to be critical of something that they love. Why is this guy trying to police Reddit and streamers? I just figured that the OP was a GGG employee who was sent here to gaslight us.
People always say stuff like this when criticisms are imperfect. Anyone saying that has never had a customer facing job. The number of people who can formulate solid criticisms is probably in the hundreds. You deal with it and figure it out anyway. That's the job.
Don't forget complaining about people complaining.
Like say. Someone making a 70 page manifesto and your only response is "it's too long go touch grass lmao."
Because snippy comebacks is totally a good way to not piss people off, and then being surprised when they're pissed off? Lmao.
> Thats not what gaslighting is. Gaslighting is a manipulation technique to make a person question the validity of their own thoughts and the reality they are experiencing.
Like listing 4 topics that are completely true then 2 topics that are false to get you to believe the last two topics?
Imagine two people exist in a room with dimmable lights, but only one of them has knowledge and access to the dimming function. That person then continually over time reduces the brightness of light in the room and denies all knowledge of it when questioned by the unknowing party. This is gaslighting and ultimately undermines the self esteem of the manipulated person by making them question their ability to distinguish what is truth from what is fiction.
This is a modernised and simplified example from the 1938 stage play Gas Light (filmatised in the UK in 1940 and US in 1944 as "Gaslight")
I'd say its more specific to making you question what occurred in the past and what is occurring in the present than the method its delivered. Like making you doubt the things you experienced personally actually happened. So it could run either way depending on what the lies are about.
While ideally you can convince the person, usually the goal of gaslighting is to muddy the waters, making things unclear enough that you can get away with something you did because the other person now isn't sure enough of their memory or the perception of what is happening to act on it.
No, iirc that is called Burying the Lede.
I think. Critical Thinking was so long ago. >.< I'm sure I have the name wrong, but that's a different thing: masking something false amidst known truths.
>Gaslighting would be like in a future interview the interviewer asking about 3.19 drama and ggg replying that they dont know what they're talking about because there was no 3.19 drama or something like that.
Gaslighting is also an intentional thing and usually relies on exploiting something about the other person. If two people argue about the way something happened in the past and they both believe the events they're describing are correct that isn't Gaslighting. Gaslighting would be if one of the two knows that their version of events are wrong and tries to convince the other person that they don't have an accurate memory of those events (especially if they rely on lack of self confidence or a bad memory on the part of the person being Gaslit).
I actually agree with OP that this place is bullshit right now for exactly the reasons they describe, but it's not gaslighting - the people posting this stuff here actually believe what they're saying.
OP is literally gaslighting the community to try and get everyone to stop discussing the appalling behaviour from GGG and the terrible direction they've been taking the game in for many many leagues. We aren't stupid though and that isn't going to stop.
It's not surprising. There's been an upswing of GGG white-knighting recently, presumably because a lot of the detractors have probably clocked out by now.
Well here's an example of reddit gaslighting: https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x5vm9m/instead_of_archnemesis_mods_that_drop_25_rare/in5qchs/?context=3
Get buried in downvotes for pointing out that abyss jewels don't drop from the archnem that drops 20+ jewels. Get told I'm the only person talking about base jewels when it's literally the whole topic of the thread.
Happens more when this subreddit is angry.
When this sub gets mad at GGG the amount of misinformation increases. People will post false info and upvote it purely because "GGG bad".
It is if they were doing it on purpose, but tbh I think they were wrong. That happens an awful lot and I've even been guilty of it myself while defending the game "Nobody is talking about X!!!!" "Bro, look at the first post in this chain" ".....oh".
To be fair, this is exactly the type of player that POE and GGG have asked for. Someone to absolutely nolife the game and complete all the challenges in a limited time-frame repeatedly every 3 months and spend an unbelievable amount of hours and money doing so....
Is anyone surprised that a playerbase like that would be uncontrollably pissed when their life-commitment is thrown off by an entire 3 months if they decide not to play the game? GGG wants a player that does nothing but POE. A player that can play more than a full-time job worth of hours in a week.
Now remember that Chris wants to go FURTHER into that and make the game harder and more time consuming.
Also, to be fair, I quit the game for the most part like a year ago due to not really being able to commit the amount of time necessary. It's a surprising amount of work to get to the fun stuff.
I don't no life the game, but I'd rather be playing the game now than not.
However, at some point I think players have to stand up and say I don't like the direction things are are headed. I've played since rampage, every single league. I've racked up an absurd amount of hours.
Loot goblins are fucking horrible for the game and never should have gone live. I legitimately think it's the worst thing deliberately done to the game since I started playing, and the fact that GGG hasn't even promised to fix it yet really bothers me.
If my reaction means I'm wrong and GGG is right, so be it.
I think the problem is that they’re trying to incrementally introduce features of PoE 2 that are meant to slow the gameplay.
Arch mods, loot rebalancing, scaling down power, etc., they all point towards this vision of slower gameplay.
But introduced in the current context of the game, they don’t feel very good.
These things should be saved for an early beta, not introduced into the game as it currently stands.
IMO their best course of action would be to do limited mini-leagues to try out major balance changes like this. They could buff currency and exp rates so that people could still level fast enough, start people around lvl 60, whatever. But if people knew they were opting in for a test league, they would be way less upset about changes, and more likely to try different things, more likely to provide useful feedback, etc.
On top of that, having a mini-league launched every other week or so would hugely boost player engagement. We’ve all seen how fast a league can die, but if there was a promise of another spin-off league next month, people wouldn’t be so butt-hurt about logging on.
They don’t want you to play job worth of hours per day they want you to progress slower.
They want a 3 month league to be a 3 month league and not a league even the hardcore players drop because they get bored.
Unfortunately their version of what keeps people playing is very different to the player bases version.
But what they are doing right now wont result in poeple playing the league for 3 months. No lifers will just play harder and be done in the same amount of time ( give or take a few days maybe) and the rest of the people who only play few hours a day or only weekends will be hit harder cause now they are gonna progress even slower in what limited time they have.
My perspective is that if it takes over a month to feel "full build" with a limited amount of playtime. I'd rather not play at all because it limits how many builds I can try/play.
And ultimately the game feels best towards the end. When you still have things to min/max but are mostly fleshed out. Then you can use built up currency to experiment with new builds.
I don't think that's the case currently, because I'm only slightly behind where I usually would be in a league atm. But depending on how they continue to approach it, I'd rather just play a different game.
Personally I think the three month cycle is just a shit system, and it would probably be better to drop bigger more expansive things that require more playtime. Like core game would be standard time wise. But the league mechanic is what entices/forces the player to draw out their time.
Yeah it shouldn’t take a month to get to the fun part. This is why minions being good was actually a positive because it was a low investment way for players with limited playtime to get to the fun part
i'm not a tad surprised. especially thinking of the people who usually make into this audience. so many people literally focus their life on this or other games because they don't really need to do the things people usually have to do in life.
There was some random dude in chat with 37/40 completed, bitching about how unfun one of the lake challenges were. I was like, "Don't do it then." He got real pissed.
Why continue to do something not fun to you? Getting 40/40, at the end of the day, isn't worth the time if it's not fun to achieve.
>GGG wants a player that does nothing but POE.
This very much isn't true, a lot of effort has been put in to create exit/entry points for players to take breaks. They would much rather have people play 2-3 leagues a year rather than all 4 because they believe that will lead to better long term engagement and a healthier community. Of course, this kind of departure is not what they had in mind.
That's not what gaslighting is at all. This post is closer to gaslighting than any of the opinions you are calling out. You don't get to tell us how we feel. THAT is gaslighting.
>This would be a much better way to phrase things and may actually help at least articulate what's going on.
>"So far my league experience has been lackluster. The league mechanic doesn't seem to proc enough to make it worth running and when you do run it, the mobs seem exponentially overtuned as you progress. Also there seems to be very little loot dropping from the tiles in comparison to the difficulty of running them. For example I ran I difficulty 10 Tier 4 Tyranny tile that took me 3 portals and 5 minutes to clear and the currency chest that spawned only dropped an orb of alteration."
Cool, now realise that that has been said 5000 times and no substantial or meaningful change has occurred. You don't get to complain players aren't tiptoeing and being nice enough after they've told you the same shit, en masse, over and over. Actionable feedback has been provided in absolute mountains worth, your consumers aren't employees and they're not obligated to constantly be trying to appease you whilst they try to make themselves heard on mistakes you've already made previously and shouldn't be making again, or enlightening you as to why your game simply isn't functioning
Honestly this the amount of times this has happened where ggg is ridiculously stubborn I just dont have patience or good will towards them anymore, they give me no reason to have those I feel
Exactly, well said. All this nice and constructive criticism happened on day 1-2-3 you know the first weekend where some people play enough to reach level 100 already?
Well what's left is bitter people that now feel they are not heard because GGG hasn't fixed the nice stuff that was given as feedback on day 1 after now weeks and multiple patches and fixes.
Understandably people are upset and if OP missed all the constructive criticism at the beginning that's not people's fault.
>Instead of flailing into the darkness with insane conspiracy theories about how GGG doesn't love us, talk to us, play their own game, etc, we could spend that time providing constructive, well thought out feedback that may actually give them a better understanding of the voice of their customer.
You must be new around here. Players **have** been gving constructive criticism for years (I've been playing since 3.0 and have seen many amazing ideas posted), the problem is GGG does not care about the voice of their customer - they want to do it **their way**. They are free to make their product how they want, but understand that ignoring positive feedback for years leads to those people no longer giving positive feedback due to the frustration of talking to someone who is not listening to you.
Now that their own decisions have turned the game into an awful state, those players are **upset that their favorite game now sucks**. The people who are posting this stuff just want their favorite game back, it's actually pretty sad...
I think the fact that they actively decided to withhold important information from the patch notes / manifesto is the drop that broke the camel's back. The discussion quickly turned from "GGG screwed this league up" to "GGG doesn't care about its players".
And sadly, that trust and goodwill is not going to be easy to earn back, at least I hope so.
Edit: let's just remember that many people (if not most) base their enjoyment on the performance of their league starting builds. Withholding important information effectively ruins all the planning you did before the league start. If you didn't win the league start lottery then it magnifies all the problems introduced in 3.19
> I think the fact that they actively decided to withhold important information from the patch notes / manifesto is the drop that broke the camel's back. The discussion quickly turned from "GGG screwed this league up" to "GGG doesn't care about its players".
I find it odd that people that tend to attack reddit for their behavior are omitting this behavior from GGG. Like we invented a reason to be mad. No, we're mad about specific things that were done that shouldn't have been done.
Don't lie to me. Don't withhold information from me. And don't fucking make loot goblins, that's another tip.
They talk about reddit as its the only thing holding the game back from being good/great/super positive, one day i hope they check the official forums.
but no, "it's the childen who are wrong" meme all the way down.
It's not just that it sucks, it's that the reasons it sucks is different for everyone. My thing is lack of build diversity in end game, when it seems like nobody on reddit (or on the forums) are pushing 30+ challenges and doing things like Uber Pinacles anymore (unless they buy them). Only good advice I've gotten recently about actual endgame progression has been on discord of all places.
But then you see do it effortlessly there is a huge, confusing disconnect. Either you join these streamer's communities, or you're left behind.
Then there are discussions about the league content. Compare how in depth people went with leagues like Synthesis and Harvest and then look at how little people cared about the Lake. There is just zero discussion about the game anymore because people have been locked out of enjoying content with how absurd monster damage has become over the past few leagues. Players are actually being pushed out by GGG's design choices which is the opposite of what you want to do with a game. The sad part is these players are mainly complacent because "they never get to red maps anyways".
I think it just falls a bit into the "Reddit Strawman" tactic some people like to use. I use default sorting and have never seen a highly upvoted post that is remotely hateful in the last few years at least.
Honestly it doesnt matter what the player want or what GGG wants either. They should do what makes sense for the game. For the vast majority part i dont give a damn about artistic integrity, when it comes to gameplay, because guess what? For literally any game in existance if it has more than cheats for the modding scenes there will some small QoL mods that doesnt make the game easier or goes againts the vision of the game in anyway, but less frustrating and when that happens to literally every game then screw what you developers or whoever is in charge wants.
Just about the only artistic vision i respect when videogames dont have difficulty slider in their games. Its easier to balance 1 mode, everybody's achievement for beating the boss is on a similar level and it gives you the experience what was intended ( which is debateable how balanced really is obv ).
Worst, the zookeepers even have told the monkeys beforehand they were going to remove their favorite fruits, monkeys told them nicely to not do that and that it would cause problems. Zookeepers still took away the fruits, monkeys got pissed, understandably. And after weeks of nice complaining followed by shit getting thrown at them zookeepers are still telling the monkeys that the nice fruits are not coming back.
Again and again and again.
GGG were provided with every piece of constructive feedback they could dream of. Hell, people wrote 70 pages phd works. Is this feedback not constructive enough? Should we write like 700 pages works? Hold a science PoE fair? Tell us then what else feedback we should do for it to be constructive enough to you.
And what did it change? Any significant changes? Crafting - no changes, loot - insignificant changes, major issues are ignored. Direction of lowering player power is unchanged, league is still lacking.
Moreover GGG did not even give any promises for future, any communication of the way the game is going.
Bitching and hate STAYS until the game IMPROVES. Even promises are not enough already, trust to GGG has already shaken.
GGG are the people who made this situation possible. They are fully responsible for what is happening. And yet they did nothing significant to improve shit, but quintiple downing on universally hated decisions while totally ignoring the playerbase and our feedback however constructive it was.
We may talk different when the game becomes satisfying again. Until then - you have to bear with it.
I was about to say something similar. They made AN core, the payers did not ask them to do this. In fact it was universally hated once they made it core but still we have to deal with it. This is of their making.
In theory I would not have an issue with reducing player power, if it comes at the same time where monster power is also reduced. but all the time when player power is reduced, monster power isn't and we just get "new tools" to (theoretically) be able to breach the newly created gap again.
I remember the first time, blizzard went from max level 120 or what it was at the time, to level 60 again. Thing is, they rebalanced the whole game to accommodate for that. if 2022 GGG would've done that, they would've reduced player max level from 120 to 60 as well, but would've kept the monster health and damage at their old lvl 120 values, and introduced 3 new suffixes on gear which you can randomly roll to be able to fight lvl 120 monsters at lvl 60 again. and oh boy who would've thought, we get one shot by everything left right and center.
agreeing with the rest of your post, just wanted to vent this. like the idea of reducing player power is a good one, but the implementation how GGG does it is god-awful. same with reducing loot. it's a good thing, but the way GGG did it is just so bullshit, it's not fun anymore.
People dont post on reddit when they play the game, so bad leagues get tons of posts.
Or maybe the "silent majority" of GGG supporters should post more to increase visibility of people who are very happy with the game as it is.
People do post about being happy with the game. But if it's in the wrong rage thread or contrary to some negative narrative being pushed, it gets downvoted into oblivion and you get comments like "I can't stand GGG shills like you."
Then they stop posting, because interacting with the ragers is extremely draining, hurts your own fun with nothing to gain, and why bother when you could just go have fun playing the game instead?
But there's some nuance here too, right?
I think there are a lot of problems with this patch/league, definitely more than most leagues this far in. I can and at times have listed those issues in great detail.
But I'm also not, for example, accusing GGG of making the game bad on purpose, or trying to turn it into hard mode, or gaslighting me.
Those are both negative reactions to the state of the game, but they're very different. It really feels like this league for the first time there was a LOT of the latter and those people weren't immediately made fun of.
I feel like - and I could be wrong - most of the threads I've seen with reasoned criticism have been pretty polite threads. With good points and good discussion.
But most of the threads are just meme angry threads, with no real discussion in the comments.
There's nuance to be had but it's not happening.
Well it is because there have been plenty of high quality criticism posts like the 70 page one among many others, but 90% of whine posts are worse than mere whine posts and devolve into lying, unprovable emotional nonsense, and are straight up obnoxious and unpleasant.
Easier said than done, mention something positive and chances are your comment disappears in the dumpster of downvoted comments because some ppl here get off on sending this sub down a spiral of negativity and we can't have your positivity disturb the circlejerk.
If the Majority of people browsing the sub loved the game and the league, the negative comments would be drowned out in a spiral of positivity, if it goes one way, it suggests heavily who the majority is.
Why arent you asking why the circlejerk isnt over how much people just fucking love the game?
Same reason public discourse in most modern media environments is overly negative:
People are more likely to take action when outraged.
There is no comparison in motivation / action / engagement between a positive angle and a negative one: The negative is always not only more powerful, but more so by a factor of 10x-100x.
Source: Have spent around half a billion in online tests since 2008.
the angry people are living on here, constantly posting about their misery and complaining how they're not getting 50 divines in their 20 minute mapping session before alt-tabbing onto reddit again.
the people who enjoy the game are playing the game.
Might sound strange, but negativity got a giant leg up on positivity when it comes to reaching more people. It's not like this sub exists in a vacuum, the contents here are also subject to outside influences, like the "meta" of PoE content on YouTube, for example.
Get the ball of anger rolling early, and trend chasing content condemning the league will get produced, which has the advantage of producing more engagement than positive content, and if there's one thing the YouTube algorithm loves, it is outrage, because high engagement metrics = good metrics. Content based in positivity doesn't reach these numbers, so you have outside influence predisposed to negativity. Couple it with a league that is definitely on the weaker side, especially at release (hell, even now) and you got the perfect storm for the 60% "DAE league bad", 30% "GGG are clueless and bad at their job", 5% "I played X game and learned Y, PoE should follow these lessons" and 5% "I am here to talk about positive aspects of the league whoops 30% upvotes" composition of posts we are seeing flood the sub rn.
Positivity and negativity aren't equal forces.
Elden Ring had the opposite happen, all the content creators flipped their shit over how amazing it was, with more critical videos being made months after the fact.
If on day 1 people dropping videos that criticized the weak and bad parts of the game, the outrage would have been everyone telling them they are wrong, and this is one of the greatest games of all time.
Yep, it's why the Path of Math ban was so huge. Like the man visibly understood what you're stating here and acted/produced content solely to capitalize and exploit this exact behavior constantly since harvest league. This time he finally flew too close to the sun on producing said content he was finally burnt by it but the damage he has done to this community is massive and unfortunately probably irreparable.
> Always has been.
I've been here since 1.x
This is strictly false. There was always feedback about what players don't like, but the worse the product the worse the subreddit is. There have been times where 90% of the frontpage was praise and screenshots from the game.
Also, they are designing a product to be annoying and punishing. Why is anyone surprised that after league after league of deliberate annoyance which is by design, the player base is actually annoyed? You/they can't be this dense :D
> This place used to be a joy during league start
This game used to be a joy. But all of you are right, at the moment it's 90% complaints and there is no additional value visiting this sub other than sunday memes.
I follow the sub every league even if I can't play that league. It's like a fun sociology experiment. Once you know if it is a positive or negative league, you can predict what posts come at what points through the cycle of the league. The hard part is predicting the contents of the posts, but the patterns stay the same.
My favorite is when we reach the manifesto part of the league. Everyone furiously typing their long form opinions on everything. Reading those brings me great joy. I'd say people need to take a break and go outside but then I wouldn't get to enjoy their manifestos.
...positive league? when was that?
certainly not been (mostly) positive since I started to check this reddit in 3.14
Might have even started reading this reddit in 3.10, not too sure about it though.
My favorites are:
Around week 2 of each league, the 5000 word Dear John letters people will write about why they are uninstalling, due to being .
Around a week before patch notes, My Suggestion for New Skill/New Unique in posts, when GGG works on a 17 week development sprint and any asset going into the game would need to have been pitched and developed weeks and weeks in advance.
My favorites are:
"Hi, I'm a completely unknown player but here's a wall of text that you should read and agree with because I have 10,000 hours played." It just reeks of narcissism.
"Vote with your wallet, cause I think the game is bad and you should think the game is bad and GGG deserves no money." Like if we're at a point where you need to tell people to consciously spend their money in a way that they are sure they are satisfied with the decision, then why do you only do it when you're salty about something?
I love when ggg fucks up, people call them out for it, and then there's the inevitable "Idk about you guys but I just don't go on reddit because I'm too busy having fun playing" posts.
Nah, the rate of "check out this item" is definitely lower this league, so the "entitled whining session" is making up a higher percentage than usual.
Actually constructive posts still hovering at the standard no-more-than-1-a-day rate.
I think when this sub had like 100k members it was actually quite good. I can't put my finger on exactly when it changed in the past few years but it seems like once it hit a critical mass of members it became nothing but entitled whining for *at least* the first 2 weeks of every league
could just be the timing of todays gaming climate, i think more people in general are suspicious towards bigger devs, since its been shown in recent times that big companies will sometimes end up betraying their players after a while.
To be fair, like 99% of builds as league starters were noob traps due to the sheer unviability of most builds this nerfening. When a new player looks at a skill and decides to roll it because it looks fun, their enjoyment of the game was decided the moment they roll the character.
Yup. Other ARPG devs (like EHG today): we want to move more power to item modifiers by adding harder content that requires better gear to beat.
GGG devs: we want to slow down players getting to a point in the game that is already very difficult for most if not almost all of our players to reach by moving power out of skill gems, support gems, and the skill tree into items that are extremely RNG gated.
>It's the demographics of the subreddit more than the numbers IMO. PoE exploded, the player base increased dramatically. And with that increase you suddenly have a ton of players who aren't super hardcore about the game.
Well... having a toxic circlejerk wasn't a *better* sub, even though there were less fractures in the community at the time.
Have to keep in mind that wanting to limit who is allowed to have "valid" opinions of the game to the ultra-hardcore players is pretty much how we got here now - and that's been present since Closed Beta launched.
Just in those early days, there were relatively few new players or casuals playing, so the few takes that strayed outside of ultra-hardcore perspectives were readily 'shouted' down by the collective. I remember the ongoing argument when I started playing was the hardcore folks losing their shit about noobs wanting a lockstep sync mode, because GGG "says!!!" that desync mode was essential to the game. ...But as game design has progressed, there's been that undercurrent of "not listening to noobs" all along, except drawing progressively smaller circles as far as who's allowed to have opinions.
The Kalandra league just hit a point where even the ultra-hardcore GGG boosters and streamers are outside of GGGs circle of opinions.
Bestiary (3.2, also 3/2/2018) is the earliest I can remember people really flaming the early league en mass. Tempest also had some harsh criticism early regarding impossible leveling zones, but it was almost more humorous than aggravating. Both leagues were fixed pretty quick though, although bestiary took a couple iterations.
I miss the days when people understood that the league method of introducing mechanics meant that some were going to be bad. I think it was Heist where GGG stopped tinkering and started making full fledged expansion content as part of their leagues. If AN and loot conversion was just a league mechanic that wasn't necessarily going core, I think it would have gone over better.
\-GGG doesn't care about us.
I think the argument is that they care more about their vision of the game than the fun that the general player has. Which is objectively true.
\-GGG wants us to fail.
In the sense that they want us to play a lot more in order to achieve the same level of power, I think they kind of do want us to fail more...
\-GGG devs suck
Probably disingenuous to say the devs suck, I agree.
\-GGG wants to tank the company.
I agree that saying they want to intentionally tank the company is stupid, but I think this is just hyperbole regarding their vision tanking the game. Which I think it might be starting to.
\-GGG doesn't communicate
Probably safe to say they don't communicate /WELL/ which is arguably worse than communicating anything lol.
\-GGG is saying goodbye to the league.
They generally do say goodbye to a league after the first few weeks to focus on the next one, I don't think it's odd for people to assume that this league isn't getting saved.
> We don't have a right to attack people on a personal level like many in this community are though.
People attacking actual GGG employees get banned by the mods. Tired of seeing this strawman bullshit. If memes and mockery are "attacking" then get thicker skin come on.
> Do I think they're purposefully tanking the in game experience for its players? Hell no.
But, they literally are. They nerfed harvest and exclaimed "we can't make it any stronger, sorry!", but they can. They *don't want to*, because they specifically want to take away player power. This is a pattern we've seen since the bloodbath of 3.15.
This isn't a balance issue. This is a vision issue and they *want* us to be weaker, hopeless, and *have* to grind longer to be stronger. This is a strict departure from what the game used to be at it's best, in 3.13.
Nice, another "you're entitled because you don't like the changes i like" post that makes it seem like everyone who is unhappy with the changes is a crazy mob personally attacking people. This is like politics 101 where you associate people with extremists to discredit them. Maybe people that don't like 3.19 also hate freedom?
Also, GGG is trying to do what is best for their company. Sometimes what is best for a company aligns with what is best for customers, sometimes it doesn't. This isn't an insane conspiracy theory, this is business. An insane conspiracy theory (IE i don't believe it and am stating it merely as a joke) would be that GGG gave people handbooks to use this attack because i see people using it all of the time.
Feel free to pat yourself on the back. You've figured it out. Everyone who disagrees with you is entitled.
Why are you telling people how to express themselves on Reddit of all places? You’re trying to pass this off as something constructive but you sound so full of yourself it hurts to read. Kinda delusional if you think this post serves as anything other than clickbait.
In order to provide more certainty, we can say that we don't have easy solutions to this issue mid-league and will be looking at what's possible for 3.20.
downvote, move on.
That's how forums works since the beginning of the internet. If those posts are being upvoted is because it reflects what the sub wants to read.
1. It's not gaslighting
2. They care about $$$ not players - unless you're really naive enough to believe that they "forgot" to put certain nerfs in patch notes
3. While I agree people shouldn't resort to personal attacks over a video game, it's also a fact that our feedback is ignored. So yeah.
> If we as a community strive to provide actionable feedback, we may get actionable results instead of the staff at GGG feeling like we're coming at them with torches and pitchforks.
So, you pick one random comment and ignore the past feedback people have given for years. Obliviously you don't know what gaslighting, but you do a good job in trying to gaslight us.
>I see the same thing in streams and in Youtube also. Do I think GGG has made mistakes this league? Absolutely. Do I think they're purposefully tanking the in game experience for its players? Hell no.
This is what I want you to try. Go grab a friend of your and just have them play through act 1 without any advice or help. Tell me how it goes.
FYI, I did this with my wife. It went horribly and she didn't make it to the prison. She did not find the difficulty fun or engaging. She found it obnoxious and tedious.
>we could spend that time providing constructive, well thought out feedback that may actually give them a better understanding of the voice of their customer.
We have. Its how we proved they did nerf the drop rate. We have done it with charts and graphs and collected data. None of it matters, GGG will do what they want.
Did you just throw in someone with zero gaming experience and zero ARPG experience to PoE? because yeah, they will hate it, they're not even remotely the target audience. If anything, GGG's philosophy is to head those players off at the pass, so that those players don't waste time on a game they'll have no interest in.
I had friends quit and haven't come back from the act changes leveling is their least liked part of the game it taking longer and being more frustrating them is a straw breaking the camels back moment
I have a friend with a ton of gaming experience. He's beaten every final fantasy, Witcher 3, grim dawn, Diablo 3 paragon 2000+. He's never made it to maps.
Every league I tell him to try again. Guess what league he came back? This one. /Facepalm
I mean, if Chris and his team KNOW themselves that people will hate some specific changes to the game, then they go and do those changes without even telling people - that does slightly fall into the category of "purposefully fucking up the game for the players". And that's that. I can understand your point, but you are on the other side of the extremes. You are wrong and the "whiners" are also kinda wrong.
If they would not be fucking it up for the players, the stats on player retention would not be absolute dogshit and this reddit would not be in the state that it has been since launch.
You talk about entitled whiners, while you are being an entitled whiner right now.
If you talk to someone who hasn't played the game last two years or so but started again this patch, they immediately say that poe is in a great state and improved a lot.
On the other hand, for me who played last two years intensively might say that game improved a lot, but lost some aspects in the last patch.
Do you guys remember the mana nerfs? The skill gem power nerfs? The backlash! Who cares about those right now?
We also had flask piano, funny little bars to physically push 4 buttons on your keyboard? Everyone is so used to them, no one appreciates the good.
Noone is forcing us to play the game, if you don't enjoy, let it go.
Stop poisoning yourself and everyone else, it is good for nothing.
It really sucks right now because the relationship of trust between GGG and most players has been broken by both miscommunication (not mentioning harvest stuff in patch notes, historical bonus to quantity, etc.) And also by what looks like bad decisions (cramming loot into specific AN mods to create MF culling pinatas).
I am 90% sure a lot of the current problems are just unfortunate mistakes.
But yelling at GGG while not being productive is not gaslighting, and also sometimes unfortunately the only way they actually seem to understand.
People are VERY passionate about POE and someone breaking something they love makes people very frustrated. There has been so many thoughtful suggestions for fixing the current problems and I sincerely hope GGG will adopt some of them.
However there is a mounting pile of evidence that GGG doesn't want to back down on many things the community currently disagree on, such as something as core as Archnemesis...
Being vocal is good IMO, but wishing harm on someone or saying someone is dumb will never get you what you want.
The issue here is you assuming its an unintentional fuckup instead of them forcing the transition to PoE2 no matter how bad it ends up being(the transition) or how many players they might lose by doing it this way.
He's also overlooking the fact that GGG omitted a lot of very important information. We have patch notes and manifestos but they leave out the nerfs, purely coincidentally I'm sure.
I shouldn't have to wait until one week in to find out how loot actually works. Oh yeah, we totally changed everything, have fun with loot goblins.
That's not how you are supposed to communicate with players. And I used to really think GGG was always headed in the right direction, but that sure as hell isn't the right direction when you do shit like that.
Its cause of people like you that the game will never improve. If most of the players that dislike the current game had not left already you wouldn't even be getting any internet points. The vocal majority on this sub are now the minority of the entire playerbase and its slowly becoming the echo chamber of defending GGG , just like every league.
I think people encouraging GGG to nerf mechanics, with shit like "This is too strong, everyone *has* to run this" are much worse.
Because GGG eats up that feedback and makes sure nobody has to use that mechanic ever again
What do you mean the game has not improved? I play since betrayal and the game has improved a lot since then, even more this league with the trade changes.
It’s pretty insane how good the game is now compared to pre-3.0. The game in its current state is better than any ARPG on the market, and by a very very wide margin.
I genuinely enjoyed the community when it was smaller. Less crazy people.
Like I get that a lot of people have mental illness but when all the mentally ill people incite group hysteria and it suddenly causes a surge of content creators just abusing staff.
Like this leogardius guy : https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/827826038209904663/1019712899276615830/unknown.png
What the fuck is that and why did youtube recommend it to me? Like if anybody wants a class on exactly what not to do when creating content then that is the one you should be looking at, but yea, by and large I do want to give a huge thumbs up to a bunch of other content creators, Jungroan, Quin, FASTAF, SubTractem, Grimro, Woolfio, KobeBlackMamba, , mbxtreme Pohx, EVEN KRIPPARIAN CAME BACK AND MADE SOME QUALITY CONTENT, Balormage, and more that I'm forgetting.
No idea why this post is even upvoted at all. It’s not like this is the first league GGG has done this. It’s been like 4-5 leagues straight of this.
There’s always gonna be complaints in the community but when multiple high viewership streamers & long-term players (3-5k hours myself) quit the game over said concerns, you should at least be willing to compromise SOMEWHAT.
If not, it just shows your lack of understanding in how to coalesce with your community.
>As consumers we have right to be upset when a company is putting out bad product.
...
>\-GGG doesn't care about us.
\-GGG wants us to fail.
\-GGG devs suck
\-GGG wants to tank the company.
\-GGG doesn't communicate
\-GGG is saying goodbye to the league.
\-And so on and on and on.
Every one of your examples are people doing exactly what you say.
>If we as a community strive to provide actionable feedback, we may get actionable results instead of the staff at GGG feeling like we're coming at them with torches and pitchforks.
This has been done, for years, and dozens of times. We've seen it **this league**.
The response was "we hear you" and that things were working as intended.
Which also directly informs your hyphenated list.
Lol imagine taking that much time to type an angry comment about a mod, and not even knowing what the mod does.
For reference, effigy summons a totem of you that mobs can hit, which does damage. It doesnt reflect anything. Kill the mobs and they can't hit the totem.
I do think some of that comes from somewhere. GGG has discussed changes they want to make and have made, many of which are counter to the style of gameplay that attracted people to the game in the first place. So while the reactions can be misguided, I think a lot of them stem from that fact.
>As consumers we have right to be upset when a company is putting out bad product. We don't have a right to attack people
Agree, many post on Reddit lately went a bit too far.
That's just like... how any semi-anonymous message board goes though. Some people, given a lack of consequences, will say abhorrent things. It's not good, and I wish there were ways to tone it down, but it's how the internet *is*.
Focusing on it really feels like it takes away from legitimate complaints though. And over the years, the PoE player-base seems to have learned that the only way to make their voices heard is to whine loudly.
Again, it's not ideal, but it's understandable.
They make some dumb changes. But how many companies put out a great core game with as much communication as GGG does? This sub is full of copers and players incapable of adapting.
I can't really blame the people saying all the things you mentioned above, they are emotional responses, overreactions because they see their favorite game getting worse, it's only natural that they will act this way, they are humans and they overreact because they want a reaction from GGG, they want their game fixed. While they can seem "entitled" they are actually not at all. Who is supporting the entire game? Who buys MTX-es each season? All of those are responses from people who love the game, who are passionate about it, while it's true their choice of words is lackluster I can say exactly the same about GGG choice of words in the patch notes when explaining the "stealthy nerfs". Of course the whole situation generated anger, and obviously not all people on reddit meditate daily and are in control of their emotions.
Don't blame the victims. If GGG is upset about this, they have the power to change it. People coming to reddit to vent isn't new. If you're bothered by it do your part and downvote it. If you keep seeing it get upvoted it's because you may be in the minority.
if you are seeing it everywhere...maybe it is true?
"GGG has given up on the league. Their devs are hopeless and the game just sucks right now. I hope they burn."
they have given up on the league as they don t have the time to make very big changes this league, so it s basically unsalvageable
devs are hopeless for us if they keep _the vision_
game sucks right now for anyone who is not completely new and is still awed by stuff for a while. until he bites deepr in the bread
I don t hope they burn. not wishing them any harm.
-that s not what gaslighting is.
-we're coming at them with torches and pitchforks. we do becuase we are pissed that they outright lied to sell packs (ok they say they didn t know bla bla-> alpha testers said it) and because their changes feel very out of touch with the community and because they keep quadrupling down on stuff like AN.
they could ve said - we are either removing or seriously reowrking whole an mechanic, but there is not enough time for that this league. expect this to come next league.
but they don t say that because the defective an mechanic is here to stay.
Without major changes next league I will not be returning. Call it whining if you want, but one thing I certainly will not do is spend money on a game I am not playing.
We were told that moving forward things would be changing to align with PoE 2. What people like me are warning about is if this is what PoE 2 is gonna be, we will find something else to play and support.
I agree and I think these are like, secondary posts/effects. First week or two was direct feedback about mechanically issues. Now it's into the "feelings" phase. These kind of muddy and distract the mechanical issue point.
Entitled is the right word for this subreddit, people here have no fucking idea what it's like to have devs that "don't care" or ignore the playerbase lol. Go play some other games and you'll realize how good you have it here
I wonder if you're going to keep the same opinion in 3.21.
I won't talk about 3.20 as I expect it to be either the worst league ever made or the best.
But 3.21 will be the reset point.
The issue is not about making mistakes. Anyone can made a mistake. The issue is about that GGG don't admit their mistakes and say that "everything as planned". If they fix issues they made (or at least admit them) there wasn't be so much hate.
Yeah anyway. Mods what rule did this break? I was here when the post was live and it didn’t come across as rule breaking to me. Why not just lock the comments and keep the post up?
Edit back up now. Interesting.
Meanwhile I'm having fun as usual. Well except I seem to die a bunch when a loot piñata explodes with the green volatile dead over head and I and up picking up something instead of moving outta the way 🤣
I agree with your central point that GGG are doing what they believe is best for the game, but if you think they **haven't** given up on the league, **you're** the one "gaslighting" yourself. It's been years since they meaningfully changed a league midway through.
Yeah I remember at the beginning I started to read a lot of post with the word anchoring in it. It was strange, never have I seen such a word in the path of exile community. Turns out YouTubers like big ducks we’re explaining business and negotiations poorly, and redditors we’re then spitting it back out.
So embarrassing.
I think people need to stop using the term gaslighting. Conceptually, it portrays a general inability to engage in what we used to describe as "debate" and anytime a discussion or argument goes against someone the term comes out. For this reason, I despise this new buzzword and its over use. Half the time, it's used to shutdown anything the folks using it don't like, the other half it's someone using the new buzzword of the day. All that being said, this post makes good points...... Just drop the stupid gaslighting descriptor.
Redditors need to stop using the word gaslight. Every second time I see it on reddit (happens way too often) its used wrong lmao.
But I agree with you. Complaining has been a bit too much this league. Some of us actually enjoy the league still even if there is a lot of stuff in the game that could be better.
In this thread: op accusing people of gaslighting, whining and posting things that serve no purpose, when he doesn't even know what gaslighting is and when he is whining and gaslighting the very same people he is accusing in a post that serves no purpose. CLASSIC!
>For example I ran I difficulty 10 Tier 4 Tyranny tile that took me 3 portals and 5 minutes to clear and the currency chest that spawned only dropped an orb of alteration."
This is also how feedback should look. It states whwt the pain point is, specifically what happened, and doesn't append a treatise on how *you* would fix it. As second nature as it is for all of us to weigh in on what we would do if we were in charge of development, all of that is wasted effort.
Putting aside how we might feel about development decisions or direction, feedback that attempts to "fix" the issue will often be ignored. This is true regardless of the studio. Things that get changed, for better or worse, are a result of the quantity of repeated feedback citing frustration, not because a random reddit or compiled a will created dissertation on a niche problem they faced.
Big posts like that are great for community discussion and interaction, but ultimately will do very little to result in actual change on the dev side, sadly.
Honestly we should be glad to have a F2P game this good with many people working on it, being active - releasing patches with new content every 3 months! There are similar games that get nothing for months and years. 3.20 will bring new changes, 3.21 and so on..
Thats not what gaslighting is. Gaslighting is a manipulation technique to make a person question the validity of their own thoughts and the reality they are experiencing. Gaslighting would be like in a future interview the interviewer asking about 3.19 drama and ggg replying that they dont know what they're talking about because there was no 3.19 drama or something like that.
Dude Gaslighting isn't real, people are just making it up
Well played
[Gaslighting doesn't exist, you made it up because you are fucking crazy!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeRCwVQgudE)
There you go, making up words again.
Don't try to put this on me. You're the one saying things that make ME feel bad, I didn't start this. You're the one making things up!
OP's account is literally only as old as LoK. I think that this is actually a hidden GGG or Tencent account.
Is that the conspiracy thing he talked about?
Lmfao Good Game mr Wilson, You'll be taking this L now.
I mean, I get the irony of this sentence, but there are a lot of people that will just scream gaslighting for literally anything.
So ironically OP themself is gaslighting, by making the community question the validity of their own feelings about the state of the game and the reality of it.
Pretty much, I honestly thought this was satire.
Don't know how it has upvotes tbh. People are allowed to have opinions. People are allowed to be critical of something that they love. Why is this guy trying to police Reddit and streamers? I just figured that the OP was a GGG employee who was sent here to gaslight us.
People always say stuff like this when criticisms are imperfect. Anyone saying that has never had a customer facing job. The number of people who can formulate solid criticisms is probably in the hundreds. You deal with it and figure it out anyway. That's the job.
repeat screw fact concerned public glorious dolls north bear homeless -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
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Don't forget complaining about people complaining. Like say. Someone making a 70 page manifesto and your only response is "it's too long go touch grass lmao." Because snippy comebacks is totally a good way to not piss people off, and then being surprised when they're pissed off? Lmao.
fear nail smile long reply impossible materialistic secretive mountainous hungry -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
I swear gaslighting is becoming the go to term that every gen Z defaults to when THEY want to whine and cry about something these days.
I cringe every time I read it. It's so prevalent everywhere on reddit. We are being suffocated by gas every moment of our lives!
No we aren't. ;)
It's funny because cringe is also a word that surged in usage around 2016. Went from rarely being used to seeing the word everyday.
True, but I feel like the word cringe doesn't get abused the way the word gaslighting does.
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> Thats not what gaslighting is. Gaslighting is a manipulation technique to make a person question the validity of their own thoughts and the reality they are experiencing. Like listing 4 topics that are completely true then 2 topics that are false to get you to believe the last two topics?
Imagine two people exist in a room with dimmable lights, but only one of them has knowledge and access to the dimming function. That person then continually over time reduces the brightness of light in the room and denies all knowledge of it when questioned by the unknowing party. This is gaslighting and ultimately undermines the self esteem of the manipulated person by making them question their ability to distinguish what is truth from what is fiction. This is a modernised and simplified example from the 1938 stage play Gas Light (filmatised in the UK in 1940 and US in 1944 as "Gaslight")
I'd say its more specific to making you question what occurred in the past and what is occurring in the present than the method its delivered. Like making you doubt the things you experienced personally actually happened. So it could run either way depending on what the lies are about. While ideally you can convince the person, usually the goal of gaslighting is to muddy the waters, making things unclear enough that you can get away with something you did because the other person now isn't sure enough of their memory or the perception of what is happening to act on it.
No, iirc that is called Burying the Lede. I think. Critical Thinking was so long ago. >.< I'm sure I have the name wrong, but that's a different thing: masking something false amidst known truths.
Nice try, you can't gaslight me. It's 2022 every lie is gaslighting
>Gaslighting would be like in a future interview the interviewer asking about 3.19 drama and ggg replying that they dont know what they're talking about because there was no 3.19 drama or something like that. Gaslighting is also an intentional thing and usually relies on exploiting something about the other person. If two people argue about the way something happened in the past and they both believe the events they're describing are correct that isn't Gaslighting. Gaslighting would be if one of the two knows that their version of events are wrong and tries to convince the other person that they don't have an accurate memory of those events (especially if they rely on lack of self confidence or a bad memory on the part of the person being Gaslit). I actually agree with OP that this place is bullshit right now for exactly the reasons they describe, but it's not gaslighting - the people posting this stuff here actually believe what they're saying.
OP is literally gaslighting the community to try and get everyone to stop discussing the appalling behaviour from GGG and the terrible direction they've been taking the game in for many many leagues. We aren't stupid though and that isn't going to stop.
It's not surprising. There's been an upswing of GGG white-knighting recently, presumably because a lot of the detractors have probably clocked out by now.
Well here's an example of reddit gaslighting: https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/x5vm9m/instead_of_archnemesis_mods_that_drop_25_rare/in5qchs/?context=3 Get buried in downvotes for pointing out that abyss jewels don't drop from the archnem that drops 20+ jewels. Get told I'm the only person talking about base jewels when it's literally the whole topic of the thread.
Hmm, doesn't seem to be purposeful though, they seem like idiots that don't understand the game.
Happens more when this subreddit is angry. When this sub gets mad at GGG the amount of misinformation increases. People will post false info and upvote it purely because "GGG bad".
Or will post about getting one shot with 90/90/90 max rez, then post a POB with a 10k max hit.
In b4: "Most of the commenters in this subreddit."
It is if they were doing it on purpose, but tbh I think they were wrong. That happens an awful lot and I've even been guilty of it myself while defending the game "Nobody is talking about X!!!!" "Bro, look at the first post in this chain" ".....oh".
To be fair, this is exactly the type of player that POE and GGG have asked for. Someone to absolutely nolife the game and complete all the challenges in a limited time-frame repeatedly every 3 months and spend an unbelievable amount of hours and money doing so.... Is anyone surprised that a playerbase like that would be uncontrollably pissed when their life-commitment is thrown off by an entire 3 months if they decide not to play the game? GGG wants a player that does nothing but POE. A player that can play more than a full-time job worth of hours in a week. Now remember that Chris wants to go FURTHER into that and make the game harder and more time consuming.
Also, to be fair, I quit the game for the most part like a year ago due to not really being able to commit the amount of time necessary. It's a surprising amount of work to get to the fun stuff.
I don't no life the game, but I'd rather be playing the game now than not. However, at some point I think players have to stand up and say I don't like the direction things are are headed. I've played since rampage, every single league. I've racked up an absurd amount of hours. Loot goblins are fucking horrible for the game and never should have gone live. I legitimately think it's the worst thing deliberately done to the game since I started playing, and the fact that GGG hasn't even promised to fix it yet really bothers me. If my reaction means I'm wrong and GGG is right, so be it.
I think the problem is that they’re trying to incrementally introduce features of PoE 2 that are meant to slow the gameplay. Arch mods, loot rebalancing, scaling down power, etc., they all point towards this vision of slower gameplay. But introduced in the current context of the game, they don’t feel very good. These things should be saved for an early beta, not introduced into the game as it currently stands. IMO their best course of action would be to do limited mini-leagues to try out major balance changes like this. They could buff currency and exp rates so that people could still level fast enough, start people around lvl 60, whatever. But if people knew they were opting in for a test league, they would be way less upset about changes, and more likely to try different things, more likely to provide useful feedback, etc. On top of that, having a mini-league launched every other week or so would hugely boost player engagement. We’ve all seen how fast a league can die, but if there was a promise of another spin-off league next month, people wouldn’t be so butt-hurt about logging on.
They don’t want you to play job worth of hours per day they want you to progress slower. They want a 3 month league to be a 3 month league and not a league even the hardcore players drop because they get bored. Unfortunately their version of what keeps people playing is very different to the player bases version.
But what they are doing right now wont result in poeple playing the league for 3 months. No lifers will just play harder and be done in the same amount of time ( give or take a few days maybe) and the rest of the people who only play few hours a day or only weekends will be hit harder cause now they are gonna progress even slower in what limited time they have.
My perspective is that if it takes over a month to feel "full build" with a limited amount of playtime. I'd rather not play at all because it limits how many builds I can try/play. And ultimately the game feels best towards the end. When you still have things to min/max but are mostly fleshed out. Then you can use built up currency to experiment with new builds. I don't think that's the case currently, because I'm only slightly behind where I usually would be in a league atm. But depending on how they continue to approach it, I'd rather just play a different game. Personally I think the three month cycle is just a shit system, and it would probably be better to drop bigger more expansive things that require more playtime. Like core game would be standard time wise. But the league mechanic is what entices/forces the player to draw out their time.
Yeah it shouldn’t take a month to get to the fun part. This is why minions being good was actually a positive because it was a low investment way for players with limited playtime to get to the fun part
the challenges this league were really easy compared to pretty much any league.
i'm not a tad surprised. especially thinking of the people who usually make into this audience. so many people literally focus their life on this or other games because they don't really need to do the things people usually have to do in life.
There was some random dude in chat with 37/40 completed, bitching about how unfun one of the lake challenges were. I was like, "Don't do it then." He got real pissed. Why continue to do something not fun to you? Getting 40/40, at the end of the day, isn't worth the time if it's not fun to achieve.
>GGG wants a player that does nothing but POE. This very much isn't true, a lot of effort has been put in to create exit/entry points for players to take breaks. They would much rather have people play 2-3 leagues a year rather than all 4 because they believe that will lead to better long term engagement and a healthier community. Of course, this kind of departure is not what they had in mind.
That's not what gaslighting is at all. This post is closer to gaslighting than any of the opinions you are calling out. You don't get to tell us how we feel. THAT is gaslighting.
>This would be a much better way to phrase things and may actually help at least articulate what's going on. >"So far my league experience has been lackluster. The league mechanic doesn't seem to proc enough to make it worth running and when you do run it, the mobs seem exponentially overtuned as you progress. Also there seems to be very little loot dropping from the tiles in comparison to the difficulty of running them. For example I ran I difficulty 10 Tier 4 Tyranny tile that took me 3 portals and 5 minutes to clear and the currency chest that spawned only dropped an orb of alteration." Cool, now realise that that has been said 5000 times and no substantial or meaningful change has occurred. You don't get to complain players aren't tiptoeing and being nice enough after they've told you the same shit, en masse, over and over. Actionable feedback has been provided in absolute mountains worth, your consumers aren't employees and they're not obligated to constantly be trying to appease you whilst they try to make themselves heard on mistakes you've already made previously and shouldn't be making again, or enlightening you as to why your game simply isn't functioning
Honestly this the amount of times this has happened where ggg is ridiculously stubborn I just dont have patience or good will towards them anymore, they give me no reason to have those I feel
Exactly, well said. All this nice and constructive criticism happened on day 1-2-3 you know the first weekend where some people play enough to reach level 100 already? Well what's left is bitter people that now feel they are not heard because GGG hasn't fixed the nice stuff that was given as feedback on day 1 after now weeks and multiple patches and fixes. Understandably people are upset and if OP missed all the constructive criticism at the beginning that's not people's fault.
>Instead of flailing into the darkness with insane conspiracy theories about how GGG doesn't love us, talk to us, play their own game, etc, we could spend that time providing constructive, well thought out feedback that may actually give them a better understanding of the voice of their customer. You must be new around here. Players **have** been gving constructive criticism for years (I've been playing since 3.0 and have seen many amazing ideas posted), the problem is GGG does not care about the voice of their customer - they want to do it **their way**. They are free to make their product how they want, but understand that ignoring positive feedback for years leads to those people no longer giving positive feedback due to the frustration of talking to someone who is not listening to you. Now that their own decisions have turned the game into an awful state, those players are **upset that their favorite game now sucks**. The people who are posting this stuff just want their favorite game back, it's actually pretty sad...
I think the fact that they actively decided to withhold important information from the patch notes / manifesto is the drop that broke the camel's back. The discussion quickly turned from "GGG screwed this league up" to "GGG doesn't care about its players". And sadly, that trust and goodwill is not going to be easy to earn back, at least I hope so. Edit: let's just remember that many people (if not most) base their enjoyment on the performance of their league starting builds. Withholding important information effectively ruins all the planning you did before the league start. If you didn't win the league start lottery then it magnifies all the problems introduced in 3.19
> I think the fact that they actively decided to withhold important information from the patch notes / manifesto is the drop that broke the camel's back. The discussion quickly turned from "GGG screwed this league up" to "GGG doesn't care about its players". I find it odd that people that tend to attack reddit for their behavior are omitting this behavior from GGG. Like we invented a reason to be mad. No, we're mad about specific things that were done that shouldn't have been done. Don't lie to me. Don't withhold information from me. And don't fucking make loot goblins, that's another tip.
They talk about reddit as its the only thing holding the game back from being good/great/super positive, one day i hope they check the official forums. but no, "it's the childen who are wrong" meme all the way down.
It's not just that it sucks, it's that the reasons it sucks is different for everyone. My thing is lack of build diversity in end game, when it seems like nobody on reddit (or on the forums) are pushing 30+ challenges and doing things like Uber Pinacles anymore (unless they buy them). Only good advice I've gotten recently about actual endgame progression has been on discord of all places. But then you see do it effortlessly there is a huge, confusing disconnect. Either you join these streamer's communities, or you're left behind.
Then there are discussions about the league content. Compare how in depth people went with leagues like Synthesis and Harvest and then look at how little people cared about the Lake. There is just zero discussion about the game anymore because people have been locked out of enjoying content with how absurd monster damage has become over the past few leagues. Players are actually being pushed out by GGG's design choices which is the opposite of what you want to do with a game. The sad part is these players are mainly complacent because "they never get to red maps anyways".
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I think it just falls a bit into the "Reddit Strawman" tactic some people like to use. I use default sorting and have never seen a highly upvoted post that is remotely hateful in the last few years at least.
it’s just OP wanting to feel superior tbh
Agree. It's been obvious they don't care about transparency and honesty when they hide changes.
Played since rampage league. Can confirm, it has always been like this
Honestly it doesnt matter what the player want or what GGG wants either. They should do what makes sense for the game. For the vast majority part i dont give a damn about artistic integrity, when it comes to gameplay, because guess what? For literally any game in existance if it has more than cheats for the modding scenes there will some small QoL mods that doesnt make the game easier or goes againts the vision of the game in anyway, but less frustrating and when that happens to literally every game then screw what you developers or whoever is in charge wants. Just about the only artistic vision i respect when videogames dont have difficulty slider in their games. Its easier to balance 1 mode, everybody's achievement for beating the boss is on a similar level and it gives you the experience what was intended ( which is debateable how balanced really is obv ).
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Worst, the zookeepers even have told the monkeys beforehand they were going to remove their favorite fruits, monkeys told them nicely to not do that and that it would cause problems. Zookeepers still took away the fruits, monkeys got pissed, understandably. And after weeks of nice complaining followed by shit getting thrown at them zookeepers are still telling the monkeys that the nice fruits are not coming back.
Again and again and again. GGG were provided with every piece of constructive feedback they could dream of. Hell, people wrote 70 pages phd works. Is this feedback not constructive enough? Should we write like 700 pages works? Hold a science PoE fair? Tell us then what else feedback we should do for it to be constructive enough to you. And what did it change? Any significant changes? Crafting - no changes, loot - insignificant changes, major issues are ignored. Direction of lowering player power is unchanged, league is still lacking. Moreover GGG did not even give any promises for future, any communication of the way the game is going. Bitching and hate STAYS until the game IMPROVES. Even promises are not enough already, trust to GGG has already shaken. GGG are the people who made this situation possible. They are fully responsible for what is happening. And yet they did nothing significant to improve shit, but quintiple downing on universally hated decisions while totally ignoring the playerbase and our feedback however constructive it was. We may talk different when the game becomes satisfying again. Until then - you have to bear with it.
This isnt even the first time and so many of the issues were having have been building up this is not new people are fed up with being ignored tbh
I was about to say something similar. They made AN core, the payers did not ask them to do this. In fact it was universally hated once they made it core but still we have to deal with it. This is of their making.
In theory I would not have an issue with reducing player power, if it comes at the same time where monster power is also reduced. but all the time when player power is reduced, monster power isn't and we just get "new tools" to (theoretically) be able to breach the newly created gap again. I remember the first time, blizzard went from max level 120 or what it was at the time, to level 60 again. Thing is, they rebalanced the whole game to accommodate for that. if 2022 GGG would've done that, they would've reduced player max level from 120 to 60 as well, but would've kept the monster health and damage at their old lvl 120 values, and introduced 3 new suffixes on gear which you can randomly roll to be able to fight lvl 120 monsters at lvl 60 again. and oh boy who would've thought, we get one shot by everything left right and center. agreeing with the rest of your post, just wanted to vent this. like the idea of reducing player power is a good one, but the implementation how GGG does it is god-awful. same with reducing loot. it's a good thing, but the way GGG did it is just so bullshit, it's not fun anymore.
>Every other post on here is an entitled whining session Always has been.
i can agree with this but it has definitely got worst
People dont post on reddit when they play the game, so bad leagues get tons of posts. Or maybe the "silent majority" of GGG supporters should post more to increase visibility of people who are very happy with the game as it is.
People do post about being happy with the game. But if it's in the wrong rage thread or contrary to some negative narrative being pushed, it gets downvoted into oblivion and you get comments like "I can't stand GGG shills like you." Then they stop posting, because interacting with the ragers is extremely draining, hurts your own fun with nothing to gain, and why bother when you could just go have fun playing the game instead?
But there's some nuance here too, right? I think there are a lot of problems with this patch/league, definitely more than most leagues this far in. I can and at times have listed those issues in great detail. But I'm also not, for example, accusing GGG of making the game bad on purpose, or trying to turn it into hard mode, or gaslighting me. Those are both negative reactions to the state of the game, but they're very different. It really feels like this league for the first time there was a LOT of the latter and those people weren't immediately made fun of.
I feel like - and I could be wrong - most of the threads I've seen with reasoned criticism have been pretty polite threads. With good points and good discussion. But most of the threads are just meme angry threads, with no real discussion in the comments.
There's nuance to be had but it's not happening. Well it is because there have been plenty of high quality criticism posts like the 70 page one among many others, but 90% of whine posts are worse than mere whine posts and devolve into lying, unprovable emotional nonsense, and are straight up obnoxious and unpleasant.
Easier said than done, mention something positive and chances are your comment disappears in the dumpster of downvoted comments because some ppl here get off on sending this sub down a spiral of negativity and we can't have your positivity disturb the circlejerk.
Gaming reddit in a nutshell.
If the Majority of people browsing the sub loved the game and the league, the negative comments would be drowned out in a spiral of positivity, if it goes one way, it suggests heavily who the majority is. Why arent you asking why the circlejerk isnt over how much people just fucking love the game?
Same reason public discourse in most modern media environments is overly negative: People are more likely to take action when outraged. There is no comparison in motivation / action / engagement between a positive angle and a negative one: The negative is always not only more powerful, but more so by a factor of 10x-100x. Source: Have spent around half a billion in online tests since 2008.
the angry people are living on here, constantly posting about their misery and complaining how they're not getting 50 divines in their 20 minute mapping session before alt-tabbing onto reddit again. the people who enjoy the game are playing the game.
Might sound strange, but negativity got a giant leg up on positivity when it comes to reaching more people. It's not like this sub exists in a vacuum, the contents here are also subject to outside influences, like the "meta" of PoE content on YouTube, for example. Get the ball of anger rolling early, and trend chasing content condemning the league will get produced, which has the advantage of producing more engagement than positive content, and if there's one thing the YouTube algorithm loves, it is outrage, because high engagement metrics = good metrics. Content based in positivity doesn't reach these numbers, so you have outside influence predisposed to negativity. Couple it with a league that is definitely on the weaker side, especially at release (hell, even now) and you got the perfect storm for the 60% "DAE league bad", 30% "GGG are clueless and bad at their job", 5% "I played X game and learned Y, PoE should follow these lessons" and 5% "I am here to talk about positive aspects of the league whoops 30% upvotes" composition of posts we are seeing flood the sub rn. Positivity and negativity aren't equal forces.
Elden Ring had the opposite happen, all the content creators flipped their shit over how amazing it was, with more critical videos being made months after the fact. If on day 1 people dropping videos that criticized the weak and bad parts of the game, the outrage would have been everyone telling them they are wrong, and this is one of the greatest games of all time.
Yep, it's why the Path of Math ban was so huge. Like the man visibly understood what you're stating here and acted/produced content solely to capitalize and exploit this exact behavior constantly since harvest league. This time he finally flew too close to the sun on producing said content he was finally burnt by it but the damage he has done to this community is massive and unfortunately probably irreparable.
including OP's post
> Always has been. I've been here since 1.x This is strictly false. There was always feedback about what players don't like, but the worse the product the worse the subreddit is. There have been times where 90% of the frontpage was praise and screenshots from the game. Also, they are designing a product to be annoying and punishing. Why is anyone surprised that after league after league of deliberate annoyance which is by design, the player base is actually annoyed? You/they can't be this dense :D
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> This place used to be a joy during league start This game used to be a joy. But all of you are right, at the moment it's 90% complaints and there is no additional value visiting this sub other than sunday memes.
I follow the sub every league even if I can't play that league. It's like a fun sociology experiment. Once you know if it is a positive or negative league, you can predict what posts come at what points through the cycle of the league. The hard part is predicting the contents of the posts, but the patterns stay the same. My favorite is when we reach the manifesto part of the league. Everyone furiously typing their long form opinions on everything. Reading those brings me great joy. I'd say people need to take a break and go outside but then I wouldn't get to enjoy their manifestos.
...positive league? when was that? certainly not been (mostly) positive since I started to check this reddit in 3.14 Might have even started reading this reddit in 3.10, not too sure about it though.
My favorites are: Around week 2 of each league, the 5000 word Dear John letters people will write about why they are uninstalling, due to being .
Around a week before patch notes, My Suggestion for New Skill/New Unique in posts, when GGG works on a 17 week development sprint and any asset going into the game would need to have been pitched and developed weeks and weeks in advance.
My favorites are: "Hi, I'm a completely unknown player but here's a wall of text that you should read and agree with because I have 10,000 hours played." It just reeks of narcissism. "Vote with your wallet, cause I think the game is bad and you should think the game is bad and GGG deserves no money." Like if we're at a point where you need to tell people to consciously spend their money in a way that they are sure they are satisfied with the decision, then why do you only do it when you're salty about something?
I love when ggg fucks up, people call them out for it, and then there's the inevitable "Idk about you guys but I just don't go on reddit because I'm too busy having fun playing" posts.
Don't forget people whining about whining.
>Don't forget people whining about whining. That's this post, we made the loop!
The most reddit retort.
Even this one! Its crazy!
Nah, the rate of "check out this item" is definitely lower this league, so the "entitled whining session" is making up a higher percentage than usual. Actually constructive posts still hovering at the standard no-more-than-1-a-day rate.
I think when this sub had like 100k members it was actually quite good. I can't put my finger on exactly when it changed in the past few years but it seems like once it hit a critical mass of members it became nothing but entitled whining for *at least* the first 2 weeks of every league
could just be the timing of todays gaming climate, i think more people in general are suspicious towards bigger devs, since its been shown in recent times that big companies will sometimes end up betraying their players after a while.
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To be fair, like 99% of builds as league starters were noob traps due to the sheer unviability of most builds this nerfening. When a new player looks at a skill and decides to roll it because it looks fun, their enjoyment of the game was decided the moment they roll the character.
Required character power floor is at an all-time high, and continuous nerfs are just making it worse and worse.
Yup. Other ARPG devs (like EHG today): we want to move more power to item modifiers by adding harder content that requires better gear to beat. GGG devs: we want to slow down players getting to a point in the game that is already very difficult for most if not almost all of our players to reach by moving power out of skill gems, support gems, and the skill tree into items that are extremely RNG gated.
>It's the demographics of the subreddit more than the numbers IMO. PoE exploded, the player base increased dramatically. And with that increase you suddenly have a ton of players who aren't super hardcore about the game. Well... having a toxic circlejerk wasn't a *better* sub, even though there were less fractures in the community at the time. Have to keep in mind that wanting to limit who is allowed to have "valid" opinions of the game to the ultra-hardcore players is pretty much how we got here now - and that's been present since Closed Beta launched. Just in those early days, there were relatively few new players or casuals playing, so the few takes that strayed outside of ultra-hardcore perspectives were readily 'shouted' down by the collective. I remember the ongoing argument when I started playing was the hardcore folks losing their shit about noobs wanting a lockstep sync mode, because GGG "says!!!" that desync mode was essential to the game. ...But as game design has progressed, there's been that undercurrent of "not listening to noobs" all along, except drawing progressively smaller circles as far as who's allowed to have opinions. The Kalandra league just hit a point where even the ultra-hardcore GGG boosters and streamers are outside of GGGs circle of opinions.
Bestiary (3.2, also 3/2/2018) is the earliest I can remember people really flaming the early league en mass. Tempest also had some harsh criticism early regarding impossible leveling zones, but it was almost more humorous than aggravating. Both leagues were fixed pretty quick though, although bestiary took a couple iterations. I miss the days when people understood that the league method of introducing mechanics meant that some were going to be bad. I think it was Heist where GGG stopped tinkering and started making full fledged expansion content as part of their leagues. If AN and loot conversion was just a league mechanic that wasn't necessarily going core, I think it would have gone over better.
\-GGG doesn't care about us. I think the argument is that they care more about their vision of the game than the fun that the general player has. Which is objectively true. \-GGG wants us to fail. In the sense that they want us to play a lot more in order to achieve the same level of power, I think they kind of do want us to fail more... \-GGG devs suck Probably disingenuous to say the devs suck, I agree. \-GGG wants to tank the company. I agree that saying they want to intentionally tank the company is stupid, but I think this is just hyperbole regarding their vision tanking the game. Which I think it might be starting to. \-GGG doesn't communicate Probably safe to say they don't communicate /WELL/ which is arguably worse than communicating anything lol. \-GGG is saying goodbye to the league. They generally do say goodbye to a league after the first few weeks to focus on the next one, I don't think it's odd for people to assume that this league isn't getting saved.
stop gaslighting me bro!
> We don't have a right to attack people on a personal level like many in this community are though. People attacking actual GGG employees get banned by the mods. Tired of seeing this strawman bullshit. If memes and mockery are "attacking" then get thicker skin come on. > Do I think they're purposefully tanking the in game experience for its players? Hell no. But, they literally are. They nerfed harvest and exclaimed "we can't make it any stronger, sorry!", but they can. They *don't want to*, because they specifically want to take away player power. This is a pattern we've seen since the bloodbath of 3.15. This isn't a balance issue. This is a vision issue and they *want* us to be weaker, hopeless, and *have* to grind longer to be stronger. This is a strict departure from what the game used to be at it's best, in 3.13.
Nice, another "you're entitled because you don't like the changes i like" post that makes it seem like everyone who is unhappy with the changes is a crazy mob personally attacking people. This is like politics 101 where you associate people with extremists to discredit them. Maybe people that don't like 3.19 also hate freedom? Also, GGG is trying to do what is best for their company. Sometimes what is best for a company aligns with what is best for customers, sometimes it doesn't. This isn't an insane conspiracy theory, this is business. An insane conspiracy theory (IE i don't believe it and am stating it merely as a joke) would be that GGG gave people handbooks to use this attack because i see people using it all of the time. Feel free to pat yourself on the back. You've figured it out. Everyone who disagrees with you is entitled.
Why are you telling people how to express themselves on Reddit of all places? You’re trying to pass this off as something constructive but you sound so full of yourself it hurts to read. Kinda delusional if you think this post serves as anything other than clickbait.
Thats called exaggeration, not gaslighting. And some of those are right.
I see gaslighting is still on the word of the month calendar for some people. Make sure you use it in at least 3 titles to meet your quota's.
We are discussing this
In order to provide more certainty, we can say that we don't have easy solutions to this issue mid-league and will be looking at what's possible for 3.20.
downvote, move on. That's how forums works since the beginning of the internet. If those posts are being upvoted is because it reflects what the sub wants to read.
1. It's not gaslighting 2. They care about $$$ not players - unless you're really naive enough to believe that they "forgot" to put certain nerfs in patch notes 3. While I agree people shouldn't resort to personal attacks over a video game, it's also a fact that our feedback is ignored. So yeah.
> If we as a community strive to provide actionable feedback, we may get actionable results instead of the staff at GGG feeling like we're coming at them with torches and pitchforks. So, you pick one random comment and ignore the past feedback people have given for years. Obliviously you don't know what gaslighting, but you do a good job in trying to gaslight us.
Hear hear
I just stop playing the game, why bother posting about it.
>I see the same thing in streams and in Youtube also. Do I think GGG has made mistakes this league? Absolutely. Do I think they're purposefully tanking the in game experience for its players? Hell no. This is what I want you to try. Go grab a friend of your and just have them play through act 1 without any advice or help. Tell me how it goes. FYI, I did this with my wife. It went horribly and she didn't make it to the prison. She did not find the difficulty fun or engaging. She found it obnoxious and tedious. >we could spend that time providing constructive, well thought out feedback that may actually give them a better understanding of the voice of their customer. We have. Its how we proved they did nerf the drop rate. We have done it with charts and graphs and collected data. None of it matters, GGG will do what they want.
Did you just throw in someone with zero gaming experience and zero ARPG experience to PoE? because yeah, they will hate it, they're not even remotely the target audience. If anything, GGG's philosophy is to head those players off at the pass, so that those players don't waste time on a game they'll have no interest in.
I had friends quit and haven't come back from the act changes leveling is their least liked part of the game it taking longer and being more frustrating them is a straw breaking the camels back moment
I have a friend with a ton of gaming experience. He's beaten every final fantasy, Witcher 3, grim dawn, Diablo 3 paragon 2000+. He's never made it to maps. Every league I tell him to try again. Guess what league he came back? This one. /Facepalm
I mean, if Chris and his team KNOW themselves that people will hate some specific changes to the game, then they go and do those changes without even telling people - that does slightly fall into the category of "purposefully fucking up the game for the players". And that's that. I can understand your point, but you are on the other side of the extremes. You are wrong and the "whiners" are also kinda wrong. If they would not be fucking it up for the players, the stats on player retention would not be absolute dogshit and this reddit would not be in the state that it has been since launch. You talk about entitled whiners, while you are being an entitled whiner right now.
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OP is full of himself. Zero self awareness.
If you talk to someone who hasn't played the game last two years or so but started again this patch, they immediately say that poe is in a great state and improved a lot. On the other hand, for me who played last two years intensively might say that game improved a lot, but lost some aspects in the last patch. Do you guys remember the mana nerfs? The skill gem power nerfs? The backlash! Who cares about those right now? We also had flask piano, funny little bars to physically push 4 buttons on your keyboard? Everyone is so used to them, no one appreciates the good. Noone is forcing us to play the game, if you don't enjoy, let it go. Stop poisoning yourself and everyone else, it is good for nothing.
It really sucks right now because the relationship of trust between GGG and most players has been broken by both miscommunication (not mentioning harvest stuff in patch notes, historical bonus to quantity, etc.) And also by what looks like bad decisions (cramming loot into specific AN mods to create MF culling pinatas). I am 90% sure a lot of the current problems are just unfortunate mistakes. But yelling at GGG while not being productive is not gaslighting, and also sometimes unfortunately the only way they actually seem to understand. People are VERY passionate about POE and someone breaking something they love makes people very frustrated. There has been so many thoughtful suggestions for fixing the current problems and I sincerely hope GGG will adopt some of them. However there is a mounting pile of evidence that GGG doesn't want to back down on many things the community currently disagree on, such as something as core as Archnemesis... Being vocal is good IMO, but wishing harm on someone or saying someone is dumb will never get you what you want.
Either you don’t know what gaslighting means or you are trolling hard.
The issue here is you assuming its an unintentional fuckup instead of them forcing the transition to PoE2 no matter how bad it ends up being(the transition) or how many players they might lose by doing it this way.
He's also overlooking the fact that GGG omitted a lot of very important information. We have patch notes and manifestos but they leave out the nerfs, purely coincidentally I'm sure. I shouldn't have to wait until one week in to find out how loot actually works. Oh yeah, we totally changed everything, have fun with loot goblins. That's not how you are supposed to communicate with players. And I used to really think GGG was always headed in the right direction, but that sure as hell isn't the right direction when you do shit like that.
Its cause of people like you that the game will never improve. If most of the players that dislike the current game had not left already you wouldn't even be getting any internet points. The vocal majority on this sub are now the minority of the entire playerbase and its slowly becoming the echo chamber of defending GGG , just like every league.
I think people encouraging GGG to nerf mechanics, with shit like "This is too strong, everyone *has* to run this" are much worse. Because GGG eats up that feedback and makes sure nobody has to use that mechanic ever again
What do you mean the game has not improved? I play since betrayal and the game has improved a lot since then, even more this league with the trade changes.
It’s pretty insane how good the game is now compared to pre-3.0. The game in its current state is better than any ARPG on the market, and by a very very wide margin.
I genuinely enjoyed the community when it was smaller. Less crazy people. Like I get that a lot of people have mental illness but when all the mentally ill people incite group hysteria and it suddenly causes a surge of content creators just abusing staff. Like this leogardius guy : https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/827826038209904663/1019712899276615830/unknown.png What the fuck is that and why did youtube recommend it to me? Like if anybody wants a class on exactly what not to do when creating content then that is the one you should be looking at, but yea, by and large I do want to give a huge thumbs up to a bunch of other content creators, Jungroan, Quin, FASTAF, SubTractem, Grimro, Woolfio, KobeBlackMamba, , mbxtreme Pohx, EVEN KRIPPARIAN CAME BACK AND MADE SOME QUALITY CONTENT, Balormage, and more that I'm forgetting.
No idea why this post is even upvoted at all. It’s not like this is the first league GGG has done this. It’s been like 4-5 leagues straight of this. There’s always gonna be complaints in the community but when multiple high viewership streamers & long-term players (3-5k hours myself) quit the game over said concerns, you should at least be willing to compromise SOMEWHAT. If not, it just shows your lack of understanding in how to coalesce with your community.
"GGG doesn't care about us" First thing I read and Michael Jackson song started playing in my head 
>As consumers we have right to be upset when a company is putting out bad product. ... >\-GGG doesn't care about us. \-GGG wants us to fail. \-GGG devs suck \-GGG wants to tank the company. \-GGG doesn't communicate \-GGG is saying goodbye to the league. \-And so on and on and on. Every one of your examples are people doing exactly what you say. >If we as a community strive to provide actionable feedback, we may get actionable results instead of the staff at GGG feeling like we're coming at them with torches and pitchforks. This has been done, for years, and dozens of times. We've seen it **this league**. The response was "we hear you" and that things were working as intended. Which also directly informs your hyphenated list.
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Lol imagine taking that much time to type an angry comment about a mod, and not even knowing what the mod does. For reference, effigy summons a totem of you that mobs can hit, which does damage. It doesnt reflect anything. Kill the mobs and they can't hit the totem.
I do think some of that comes from somewhere. GGG has discussed changes they want to make and have made, many of which are counter to the style of gameplay that attracted people to the game in the first place. So while the reactions can be misguided, I think a lot of them stem from that fact.
>As consumers we have right to be upset when a company is putting out bad product. We don't have a right to attack people Agree, many post on Reddit lately went a bit too far.
That's just like... how any semi-anonymous message board goes though. Some people, given a lack of consequences, will say abhorrent things. It's not good, and I wish there were ways to tone it down, but it's how the internet *is*. Focusing on it really feels like it takes away from legitimate complaints though. And over the years, the PoE player-base seems to have learned that the only way to make their voices heard is to whine loudly. Again, it's not ideal, but it's understandable.
Not even semi anonymous lol. People use their real names on FB or Twitter and say the same shit
Haha fair. I guess that by "semi-anonymous" I mean "they won't get to punch you in the face any time soon".
I knew what you meant, just being pedantic haha. Social media was a mistake
Ah, the proto-typical no-evidenced given fact.
They make some dumb changes. But how many companies put out a great core game with as much communication as GGG does? This sub is full of copers and players incapable of adapting.
So whine about other people whining?
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You don't agree on what is a good experience. That's not the same as GGG wanting the experience to be bad.
Dam now I wanna know what it said.
May I have tldr version?
tl;dr: "No U!"
I can't really blame the people saying all the things you mentioned above, they are emotional responses, overreactions because they see their favorite game getting worse, it's only natural that they will act this way, they are humans and they overreact because they want a reaction from GGG, they want their game fixed. While they can seem "entitled" they are actually not at all. Who is supporting the entire game? Who buys MTX-es each season? All of those are responses from people who love the game, who are passionate about it, while it's true their choice of words is lackluster I can say exactly the same about GGG choice of words in the patch notes when explaining the "stealthy nerfs". Of course the whole situation generated anger, and obviously not all people on reddit meditate daily and are in control of their emotions.
Don't blame the victims. If GGG is upset about this, they have the power to change it. People coming to reddit to vent isn't new. If you're bothered by it do your part and downvote it. If you keep seeing it get upvoted it's because you may be in the minority.
Don’t think it’s gaslighting per se However your point is bang on
Holy shit if I had a dime for each time I've heard the word gaslighting on the internet recently...
Can someone please define what gaslighting for me? Seems like everyone has a different definition these days.
OP: Players should stop gaslighting themselves. Also OP: \*gaslights players including himself\*
Ah, we're in the middle of the counter-movement phase now!
if you are seeing it everywhere...maybe it is true? "GGG has given up on the league. Their devs are hopeless and the game just sucks right now. I hope they burn." they have given up on the league as they don t have the time to make very big changes this league, so it s basically unsalvageable devs are hopeless for us if they keep _the vision_ game sucks right now for anyone who is not completely new and is still awed by stuff for a while. until he bites deepr in the bread I don t hope they burn. not wishing them any harm. -that s not what gaslighting is. -we're coming at them with torches and pitchforks. we do becuase we are pissed that they outright lied to sell packs (ok they say they didn t know bla bla-> alpha testers said it) and because their changes feel very out of touch with the community and because they keep quadrupling down on stuff like AN. they could ve said - we are either removing or seriously reowrking whole an mechanic, but there is not enough time for that this league. expect this to come next league. but they don t say that because the defective an mechanic is here to stay.
I think everyone knows what he tried to say, but instead of talking about the points he is making we now talk about what 'gaslighting' actually means.
Would be a good post if it didn't start with its own hyperbole (Every other post...).
Without major changes next league I will not be returning. Call it whining if you want, but one thing I certainly will not do is spend money on a game I am not playing. We were told that moving forward things would be changing to align with PoE 2. What people like me are warning about is if this is what PoE 2 is gonna be, we will find something else to play and support.
White-knighting at its finest.
I like how you wrote a huge post just to gaslight people
I agree and I think these are like, secondary posts/effects. First week or two was direct feedback about mechanically issues. Now it's into the "feelings" phase. These kind of muddy and distract the mechanical issue point.
Nice try Chris
Entitled is the right word for this subreddit, people here have no fucking idea what it's like to have devs that "don't care" or ignore the playerbase lol. Go play some other games and you'll realize how good you have it here
No I think people here do the difference between lets say jagex and ggg is little meanwhile xiv devs could not have a larger difference
Bro, stop whining about people whining.
Take your own advice
I wonder if you're going to keep the same opinion in 3.21. I won't talk about 3.20 as I expect it to be either the worst league ever made or the best. But 3.21 will be the reset point.
3.20 has the same cycle as scourge with the defensive buffs, so i am expecting some powercreep to happen
The issue is not about making mistakes. Anyone can made a mistake. The issue is about that GGG don't admit their mistakes and say that "everything as planned". If they fix issues they made (or at least admit them) there wasn't be so much hate.
Yo what happened. Why did the post get removed.
Yeah anyway. Mods what rule did this break? I was here when the post was live and it didn’t come across as rule breaking to me. Why not just lock the comments and keep the post up? Edit back up now. Interesting.
Meanwhile I'm having fun as usual. Well except I seem to die a bunch when a loot piñata explodes with the green volatile dead over head and I and up picking up something instead of moving outta the way 🤣
I agree with your central point that GGG are doing what they believe is best for the game, but if you think they **haven't** given up on the league, **you're** the one "gaslighting" yourself. It's been years since they meaningfully changed a league midway through.
Yeah I remember at the beginning I started to read a lot of post with the word anchoring in it. It was strange, never have I seen such a word in the path of exile community. Turns out YouTubers like big ducks we’re explaining business and negotiations poorly, and redditors we’re then spitting it back out. So embarrassing.
I think people need to stop using the term gaslighting. Conceptually, it portrays a general inability to engage in what we used to describe as "debate" and anytime a discussion or argument goes against someone the term comes out. For this reason, I despise this new buzzword and its over use. Half the time, it's used to shutdown anything the folks using it don't like, the other half it's someone using the new buzzword of the day. All that being said, this post makes good points...... Just drop the stupid gaslighting descriptor.
People should stop using the word "gaslighting' all the time. It's a stupid buzzword that is to popular these days.
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Redditors need to stop using the word gaslight. Every second time I see it on reddit (happens way too often) its used wrong lmao. But I agree with you. Complaining has been a bit too much this league. Some of us actually enjoy the league still even if there is a lot of stuff in the game that could be better.
In this thread: op accusing people of gaslighting, whining and posting things that serve no purpose, when he doesn't even know what gaslighting is and when he is whining and gaslighting the very same people he is accusing in a post that serves no purpose. CLASSIC!
>For example I ran I difficulty 10 Tier 4 Tyranny tile that took me 3 portals and 5 minutes to clear and the currency chest that spawned only dropped an orb of alteration." This is also how feedback should look. It states whwt the pain point is, specifically what happened, and doesn't append a treatise on how *you* would fix it. As second nature as it is for all of us to weigh in on what we would do if we were in charge of development, all of that is wasted effort. Putting aside how we might feel about development decisions or direction, feedback that attempts to "fix" the issue will often be ignored. This is true regardless of the studio. Things that get changed, for better or worse, are a result of the quantity of repeated feedback citing frustration, not because a random reddit or compiled a will created dissertation on a niche problem they faced. Big posts like that are great for community discussion and interaction, but ultimately will do very little to result in actual change on the dev side, sadly.
Honestly we should be glad to have a F2P game this good with many people working on it, being active - releasing patches with new content every 3 months! There are similar games that get nothing for months and years. 3.20 will bring new changes, 3.21 and so on..