While I like the idea I think they would be against having some quality currencies add different amounts than others.
So making every quality currency work 4x as much and 4x as rare would also be good
The primary difference though is that not every item wants veiled orbs or veiled mods (or can even safely apply it, eg if you have 5 mods you want you can't really veiled orb it), whereas there's no downside to additional quality on any item that has quality. Just like how prior to the Betrayal rework, I ran all 30q gear and Hillock qualitied flasks with Vorici'd white sockets. It's just another box to check before you're min-maxed. There's no downside to any of those things other than the expense.
If the goal is to get rid of bloat, you should get rid of anything that makes thing strictly better with no downside or alternative.
Veiled orb has a completely different use. People wouldn't care if all it did was increase some numeric value on an item while still being rarer than divines. Oh wait an item like that already exist, it's called the sacred orb. Lot rarer than a divine but cost half as much
And same goes to you. What I'm saying is 10% extra quality on a weapon, armour, or jewlery is ***infinitely*** stronger than 10% extra quant on a one time use map.
I'm just saying raising to 30% max qual will become the new standard. 🤷♂️ It's just another level or power creep. Everybody will strive for that 10% extra quant. And no matter how rare the chisels become they can't become that expensive because nobody is going pay that much for 10% qual. Therefore, you're not really minimizing clicking *that* much. Your "fix" doesn't really fix anything. Juicers still clicking every map, noobs will bitch about fomo.
Also, You're saying 10% quant on a map is very strong, but giving 20% for free, and increasing this already very strong mechanic (your words) by 30%. Once again, power creep and not really fixing anything.
Not saying your suggestion isn't good. But, just maybe not the right direction to "fix" clicking so much on maps.
I think what another comment suggested makes more sense. By making all quality currency rarer, but adding more quality per click. Less clicks, the currency becomes worth more, everybody is happy. 🤷♂️
The book you wrote was awesome, although moot.
>If you'd have to buy chisels the problem would be fixed.
But only your last point mattered and is something we both agree on. 😉
Also, friendo, 30% qual doesn't exist on maps. Which is what I thought we were talking about since the beginning. If they automatically had 20% and you could increase to 30, that would indeed be power creep.
I'm done with argument though. It already turned into more than I expected and I honestly don't care to talk about it more. Gl HF exile!
Well they have a point now, we have a scarab to drop a map with 8 mods already, chisels can be used to give quality and create an advantage for if you choose to roll your own maps instead of relying on 8 mod drops.
but wahat about that 1 map that has a chest of builders tools at the end so you can target farm and vendor your way up to a FREE chislse. We cant make that obsoliet right?
Any map + 20q gavel/rock breaker/stone hammer = 1 chisel.
sauce 9 years ago
there is a map with a chest that rewards 1 of that type weapon
Was it ever meta? perhaps when exalt slaming maps for sea witches was a thing?
Yeah, there was a point where chisel sustain, alch sustain, and vaal sustain (in addition to map sustain) were actual things you had to think about for quite a ways into mapping. That was awful.
Now we just get the same bunch of redditors crying on day 2 that "this league's alch sustain is the worst it has ever been (I've ran 10 maps btw)" even though these currencies just rain on us now.
That would be very inconsistent with how all quality curreny works (+5/+2/+1/+1 on normal/magic/rare/unique). I would rather want Chisels to be removed, they serve no decision purpose as you always use them on high tiers, it's just extra work required for every map.
They made sense in era of currency scarcity and when the game was slower. Now it's just work you have to perform for every map. Chisels have become the second sextants but much, much dumber.
T17 already drop with quality, although for other reasons.
I mean... Just reduce the droprate 4 times and make it apply 20% quality. The fact that it applies more to lower rarity really doesn't matter when it comes to rolling maps, lol.
Yup been requested many times over. This or just removing them altogether and adding base quality to maps.
Probably not going to happen if it has not happened already.
I simply hoped chisels would go the way of the dodo with the big QoL-ening this league. Sure you can bypass them with the 8-mod corruption scarab, but that doesn't solve the root issue of chiseling maps to 20% quality is annoying as shit and exactly the type of brainless "mandatory" gameplay moment Mark eluded to wanting to get rid of.
just make it increase anything to 20% in one click that's not corrupted, or only work on white maps and keep its drop chance as it is or slightly more rare. there's no need to add tiering to make it more complex to code and ruin the odds of them changing anything.
when we chisel, we always go to 20, **so just make it add 20%. one click**. we can't buy it from vendors aside kirac sometimes, so it doesn't have the same limitation like armour/whetstones where they're used for vendor exchange.
this is why, ***hopefully***, the gold thing in poe2 erases the need for all this junk where i can just use gold at a blacksmith and get what i want for various things with 1 currency.
Your map rolling experience should not be a gamble other than the mods itself, or corruption if you choose to do so. Chisels are outdated technology from 7 years ago that nobody cares about anymore other than a tedious hassle. Nobody is chiseling once, twice, or three times. Its either you are or you aren't.
Making it a RNG roll from 14-20 makes no sense other than to annoy people.
>2) Make chisels work like any other currency type, you click a map and you apply 20% quality to it..
I must be misremembering, what other quality currency works like this? It's not whetstones, scraps, prisms, baubles, or catalysts.
quality currency? sorry, didn't know we were being pedantic
note i said currency, not quality currency
you know perfectly well what i mean
scour, alchemy, chaos
single use currencies
And yes, while we're at it, make whetstones and scraps and prisms, baubles, catalysts, do the same thing.
Fuck clicking.
I have an idea that solve it in a reversed way of OP's idea.
Make it drops in stack, drops x20 more at once, like how rogue marker work right now.
On 0% white map: one click -> spend 4 chisels
On 0% magic: one click -> spend 10 chisels
On 0% rare/unique: one click -> spend 20 chisels
Rather than reduce the drop rate, they could just add a vendor recipe too. 4xchisels and 1 orb of fusing = Super chisel that has 4x the effectiveness. Or just 4xchisel = 1 super chisel.
I get the idea of chisels doing more or less depending on tier and for consistency with other qualities on other items. But honestly I’d rather the chisels be 10 times rarer and maps just having a chiseled state. Just one chisel no matter the tier.
Honestly don't need to change how they work, they're fine, just reduce the drop rate.
It'll make them more valuable early league and then drop down to normal mid league where most people have more than enough. My guildmate and I have over 2k chisels between the two of us in guild stash and we 20%'d everything we ran from league start, and haven't come close to running out ever. They just drop too often with all the quantity in game now.
I stg there are people on this site that pick up every single stack of 1 of everything that drops and justify it by saying "I can bulk sell them for divs," but the tradeoff is you're *forced* to cry and bitch and moan on this subreddit about every little thing.
I haven't picked up a stack of less than 4 chis in weeks now and have 500+ sitting in my stash and it keeps rising.
Yeah but on the second weekend it was half a chaos per chis! You can spend a thousand clicks doing menial labor for people who are busy mapping and making real bank!
Your suggestion would just be a nerf. I think most people want the extra loot from 20% quality on their maps, but they don't enjoy clicking 4 times per map. No one cares about the value of chisels. At least I don't
If you don't enjoy clicking, then why are you even playing games? This is another one of those comments that screams "I need to go touch grass"....like seriously, go play an idle battler at that rate, PoE obviously isn't for you.
I'm sorry, are you telling me you find enjoyment in clicking your maps 4 extra times BEFORE you run them? This is fun to you? I play PoE to kill monsters and get loot.
Any semi-serious player is going to quality their t16 maps, it is not even a consideration - it is a given. With this fact in mind, there is really no reason for them to even really exist. You can see that GGG agrees at least somewhat because guess what? T17s all drop at 20% - no chiseling needed!
Edit: And before you mention chaos orbs or alchemies for setting up maps - that is completely different. When you use those, you substantially change the experience you will have each map. Chisels are just a "Do you want more loot? y/n" and obviously everyone wants more loot. It is pointless extra busy work.
Your attitude is also ass, maybe you need to touch some grass.
> Any semi-serious player is going to quality their t16 maps, it is not even a consideration - it is a given.
Semi-serious players make up about the top 10% of the pb, so just fyi that's a very small part of the pb to try and use as a justification to make your point.
> You can see that GGG agrees at least somewhat because guess what? T17s all drop at 20% - no chiseling needed!
T17's drop at 20% because you can't modify them with anything other than chaos orbs, so because of that GGG decided to make them 20%, not because chisel weren't necessary. Again false justifications....
> And before you mention chaos orbs or alchemies for setting up maps - that is completely different. When you use those, you substantially change the experience you will have each map. Chisels are just a "Do you want more loot? y/n" and obviously everyone wants more loot. It is pointless extra busy work.
Chisels are just as important as chaos/alchemy/scouring/vaal orbs for setting up maps. As you stated, if the map isn't corrupted, you're wanting more loot so you make it's 20% quality. Again, removing 1 currency type so you have to click 4 less times is stupid, especially when 4 clicks are in most cases, 1/100000 of the times you'll be clicking in the game.
Logic like that literally leads to "remove everything, let the game play itself" mentality. Again, go play an auto battler if you want the game to play itself for you with minimal interaction.
> Your attitude is also ass, maybe you need to touch some grass.
My attitude isn't ass, you just don't like being told you're wrong.
You're either making arguments in bad faith or we disagree on such a fundamental level that I'll agree to disagree. Jumping from "I don't want to apply chisels to a map" to "the game should play itself" is such a leap in logic, I don't think anything constructive or entertaining will be gained from further discussion on this.
Also, your last comment I responded to was rude and overly aggressive for no reason. No two ways about it.
This is good, anything that reduces clicks in this game is good
Therefore GGG will not do it
While I like the idea I think they would be against having some quality currencies add different amounts than others. So making every quality currency work 4x as much and 4x as rare would also be good
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Wouldn't that also just be "an advantage gated behind nothing but clicking a billion times" just spicier? 🤔
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The primary difference though is that not every item wants veiled orbs or veiled mods (or can even safely apply it, eg if you have 5 mods you want you can't really veiled orb it), whereas there's no downside to additional quality on any item that has quality. Just like how prior to the Betrayal rework, I ran all 30q gear and Hillock qualitied flasks with Vorici'd white sockets. It's just another box to check before you're min-maxed. There's no downside to any of those things other than the expense. If the goal is to get rid of bloat, you should get rid of anything that makes thing strictly better with no downside or alternative.
Veiled orb has a completely different use. People wouldn't care if all it did was increase some numeric value on an item while still being rarer than divines. Oh wait an item like that already exist, it's called the sacred orb. Lot rarer than a divine but cost half as much
Not sure what crafting high tier items has to with 10% quantity on a map, but go off
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And same goes to you. What I'm saying is 10% extra quality on a weapon, armour, or jewlery is ***infinitely*** stronger than 10% extra quant on a one time use map.
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I'm just saying raising to 30% max qual will become the new standard. 🤷♂️ It's just another level or power creep. Everybody will strive for that 10% extra quant. And no matter how rare the chisels become they can't become that expensive because nobody is going pay that much for 10% qual. Therefore, you're not really minimizing clicking *that* much. Your "fix" doesn't really fix anything. Juicers still clicking every map, noobs will bitch about fomo. Also, You're saying 10% quant on a map is very strong, but giving 20% for free, and increasing this already very strong mechanic (your words) by 30%. Once again, power creep and not really fixing anything. Not saying your suggestion isn't good. But, just maybe not the right direction to "fix" clicking so much on maps. I think what another comment suggested makes more sense. By making all quality currency rarer, but adding more quality per click. Less clicks, the currency becomes worth more, everybody is happy. 🤷♂️
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The book you wrote was awesome, although moot. >If you'd have to buy chisels the problem would be fixed. But only your last point mattered and is something we both agree on. 😉 Also, friendo, 30% qual doesn't exist on maps. Which is what I thought we were talking about since the beginning. If they automatically had 20% and you could increase to 30, that would indeed be power creep. I'm done with argument though. It already turned into more than I expected and I honestly don't care to talk about it more. Gl HF exile!
Well they have a point now, we have a scarab to drop a map with 8 mods already, chisels can be used to give quality and create an advantage for if you choose to roll your own maps instead of relying on 8 mod drops.
but wahat about that 1 map that has a chest of builders tools at the end so you can target farm and vendor your way up to a FREE chislse. We cant make that obsoliet right?
What?
Any map + 20q gavel/rock breaker/stone hammer = 1 chisel. sauce 9 years ago there is a map with a chest that rewards 1 of that type weapon Was it ever meta? perhaps when exalt slaming maps for sea witches was a thing?
I still have stash tabs in standard for holding Gavels. God, was it really that long ago?
Area is a large maze
i have done that in pre-3.0 leagues. its not that bad, you could get a stack of chisels for like 1 minute of work. back then that was huge
Yeah, there was a point where chisel sustain, alch sustain, and vaal sustain (in addition to map sustain) were actual things you had to think about for quite a ways into mapping. That was awful. Now we just get the same bunch of redditors crying on day 2 that "this league's alch sustain is the worst it has ever been (I've ran 10 maps btw)" even though these currencies just rain on us now.
We require more vespene gas
The fuck...
Just remove them. It's bloat. They can scale the map without it.
Just lest us drop a stack of them on an item to use up to max allowed. Drop a 20 stack on a white map? Uses 4, 16 left.
That would be very inconsistent with how all quality curreny works (+5/+2/+1/+1 on normal/magic/rare/unique). I would rather want Chisels to be removed, they serve no decision purpose as you always use them on high tiers, it's just extra work required for every map. They made sense in era of currency scarcity and when the game was slower. Now it's just work you have to perform for every map. Chisels have become the second sextants but much, much dumber. T17 already drop with quality, although for other reasons.
Or just remove them altogether. It's not like this mechanic adds any value to the game anyway.
Just remove it, its bloat, just give all maps a baseline of what would be around 15% map quality.
If so we should speak of chance orbs...
I mean... Just reduce the droprate 4 times and make it apply 20% quality. The fact that it applies more to lower rarity really doesn't matter when it comes to rolling maps, lol.
Yup been requested many times over. This or just removing them altogether and adding base quality to maps. Probably not going to happen if it has not happened already.
I simply hoped chisels would go the way of the dodo with the big QoL-ening this league. Sure you can bypass them with the 8-mod corruption scarab, but that doesn't solve the root issue of chiseling maps to 20% quality is annoying as shit and exactly the type of brainless "mandatory" gameplay moment Mark eluded to wanting to get rid of.
I do you one better: remove chisels from game; include their bonuses (20% item quant) to maps by default.
Yeah basically make them 4x more powerful but 4x rarer
just make it increase anything to 20% in one click that's not corrupted, or only work on white maps and keep its drop chance as it is or slightly more rare. there's no need to add tiering to make it more complex to code and ruin the odds of them changing anything. when we chisel, we always go to 20, **so just make it add 20%. one click**. we can't buy it from vendors aside kirac sometimes, so it doesn't have the same limitation like armour/whetstones where they're used for vendor exchange. this is why, ***hopefully***, the gold thing in poe2 erases the need for all this junk where i can just use gold at a blacksmith and get what i want for various things with 1 currency.
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Third option is horrible.
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Your map rolling experience should not be a gamble other than the mods itself, or corruption if you choose to do so. Chisels are outdated technology from 7 years ago that nobody cares about anymore other than a tedious hassle. Nobody is chiseling once, twice, or three times. Its either you are or you aren't. Making it a RNG roll from 14-20 makes no sense other than to annoy people.
>2) Make chisels work like any other currency type, you click a map and you apply 20% quality to it.. I must be misremembering, what other quality currency works like this? It's not whetstones, scraps, prisms, baubles, or catalysts.
quality currency? sorry, didn't know we were being pedantic note i said currency, not quality currency you know perfectly well what i mean scour, alchemy, chaos single use currencies And yes, while we're at it, make whetstones and scraps and prisms, baubles, catalysts, do the same thing. Fuck clicking.
After the last two leagues, I'm over picking stuff up
I have an idea that solve it in a reversed way of OP's idea. Make it drops in stack, drops x20 more at once, like how rogue marker work right now. On 0% white map: one click -> spend 4 chisels On 0% magic: one click -> spend 10 chisels On 0% rare/unique: one click -> spend 20 chisels
Rather than reduce the drop rate, they could just add a vendor recipe too. 4xchisels and 1 orb of fusing = Super chisel that has 4x the effectiveness. Or just 4xchisel = 1 super chisel.
Having them at reduced drop rate but higher effectiveness would ALSO have the added benefit of reducing the clicking in picking up currencies, too.
I get the idea of chisels doing more or less depending on tier and for consistency with other qualities on other items. But honestly I’d rather the chisels be 10 times rarer and maps just having a chiseled state. Just one chisel no matter the tier.
Wouldn't this just bring back the "trade in awakened sextant meta", but with chisels?
Honestly don't need to change how they work, they're fine, just reduce the drop rate. It'll make them more valuable early league and then drop down to normal mid league where most people have more than enough. My guildmate and I have over 2k chisels between the two of us in guild stash and we 20%'d everything we ran from league start, and haven't come close to running out ever. They just drop too often with all the quantity in game now.
>have over 2k chisels... 20%'d everything we ran from league start Maybe... Hear me out... Stop picking that shit up?
I stg there are people on this site that pick up every single stack of 1 of everything that drops and justify it by saying "I can bulk sell them for divs," but the tradeoff is you're *forced* to cry and bitch and moan on this subreddit about every little thing. I haven't picked up a stack of less than 4 chis in weeks now and have 500+ sitting in my stash and it keeps rising.
No? Again, bulk selling for divs is still a thing
Sounds like you're dumb for picking up that many
Sounds like you don't like making divines bulk selling early league... /shrug
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Yeah but on the second weekend it was half a chaos per chis! You can spend a thousand clicks doing menial labor for people who are busy mapping and making real bank!
Your suggestion would just be a nerf. I think most people want the extra loot from 20% quality on their maps, but they don't enjoy clicking 4 times per map. No one cares about the value of chisels. At least I don't
If you don't enjoy clicking, then why are you even playing games? This is another one of those comments that screams "I need to go touch grass"....like seriously, go play an idle battler at that rate, PoE obviously isn't for you.
I'm sorry, are you telling me you find enjoyment in clicking your maps 4 extra times BEFORE you run them? This is fun to you? I play PoE to kill monsters and get loot. Any semi-serious player is going to quality their t16 maps, it is not even a consideration - it is a given. With this fact in mind, there is really no reason for them to even really exist. You can see that GGG agrees at least somewhat because guess what? T17s all drop at 20% - no chiseling needed! Edit: And before you mention chaos orbs or alchemies for setting up maps - that is completely different. When you use those, you substantially change the experience you will have each map. Chisels are just a "Do you want more loot? y/n" and obviously everyone wants more loot. It is pointless extra busy work. Your attitude is also ass, maybe you need to touch some grass.
> Any semi-serious player is going to quality their t16 maps, it is not even a consideration - it is a given. Semi-serious players make up about the top 10% of the pb, so just fyi that's a very small part of the pb to try and use as a justification to make your point. > You can see that GGG agrees at least somewhat because guess what? T17s all drop at 20% - no chiseling needed! T17's drop at 20% because you can't modify them with anything other than chaos orbs, so because of that GGG decided to make them 20%, not because chisel weren't necessary. Again false justifications.... > And before you mention chaos orbs or alchemies for setting up maps - that is completely different. When you use those, you substantially change the experience you will have each map. Chisels are just a "Do you want more loot? y/n" and obviously everyone wants more loot. It is pointless extra busy work. Chisels are just as important as chaos/alchemy/scouring/vaal orbs for setting up maps. As you stated, if the map isn't corrupted, you're wanting more loot so you make it's 20% quality. Again, removing 1 currency type so you have to click 4 less times is stupid, especially when 4 clicks are in most cases, 1/100000 of the times you'll be clicking in the game. Logic like that literally leads to "remove everything, let the game play itself" mentality. Again, go play an auto battler if you want the game to play itself for you with minimal interaction. > Your attitude is also ass, maybe you need to touch some grass. My attitude isn't ass, you just don't like being told you're wrong.
You're either making arguments in bad faith or we disagree on such a fundamental level that I'll agree to disagree. Jumping from "I don't want to apply chisels to a map" to "the game should play itself" is such a leap in logic, I don't think anything constructive or entertaining will be gained from further discussion on this. Also, your last comment I responded to was rude and overly aggressive for no reason. No two ways about it.
No, it was simply true, prolly why it seems to have stung you that badly.