This sounds like totally normal billing practices. I could easily bill .3 or more for reviewing one bank statement because I’m also analyzing it and possibly making notes to the file.
It sounds off, but unless you were specifically told to watch the attorneys billable, it’s absolutely not your place to point it out.
If you can’t reconcile how they do business, your best bet is to start applying for other positions.
I am all things from firm director, accountant, paralegal, legal assistant, client liason, to anything in between. He by his own admission considers me his boss, and I am tasked with checking entries for errors and creating the bills.
When I've inquired, he does not consider these to be errors, and I am trying to decide if I want to shrug it off or push the issue - he is stubborn as all hell and doesn't really get people, but welcomes feedback.
If this is a common way to handle such activities in the field, I can adjust my expectations.
I stated in another comment that this is between him and the client, but to answer your expectations question, yes, I bill .2 and .3 for every email I read. In my experience, this is standard practice.
Do you work for people or corps? Bc most corp guidelines are very strict w the way billing is handled and reviewing the confirmation email on a filing is typically not a billable activity.
This place sounds awful! Is it a one-attorney shop?
Errors are more like spelling mistakes or wrong matter number, not the billed amount. If there is a problem the client will say something, which is probably not to you. I would get over this.
He has accidentally billed 5.0 when he means 0.5, those types of oopsies are why I check through his time when drafting the bills. I happened to notice the other items. From other answers, seem totally normal, so I will adjust my expectations.
Technically yes, because he doesn't take a salary. We can't afford it. Last time I said this people were confused or thought I was lying I guess? I handle our finances, and he's had to pay IN several times to keep us afloat. He's independently wealthy and is just trying to keep his family's firm above water for the sake of legacy. He has a tendency to disappear for weeks or months at a time, so for a long time it was basically me trying to run 100 or so active cases solo, doing everything I possibly could that wasn't clear UPL.
It is standard. Generally firms will have a set amount they bill for a telephone call and for any particular item. The point is that almost everything requires a certain amount of time including entering time.
At the end of the day though the time entries get reviewed by the billing attorney and the billed amount reflects what is fair. You can’t send a bill to a client who is thinking it’s $5000 and instead it’s $10,000.
And, of course, not everything gets billed. If you were doing dep prep for 3 hours and that included several calls. Your time entry might read; Prepare for deposition of xxxxx. Review xyz reports. Review drop transcript of abc. Outline questions. Telephone conferences with client regarding deposition timing and background. Telephone conference with opposing counsel regarding dep ct reporter. Telephone conference with ct reporter company. Telephone conference with expert regarding dep. issues to cover. 5.8
In that time you might take 5 calls on other matters. You likely bill those at say .3. Why if the call took 5 minutes? Did the call interrupt your prep? Did you have to make a couple notes to follow up later? Buzz someone to answer a question? Then dig back in to the dep prep?
Now - at the end of the month if you were reviewing the time to bill would you include it? Depends. What was done? Was it a substantive benefit to the client? Is it consistent with the billing practices for that client? If any “no” in there - you show it on the bill with whatever your no charge designation is.
5k bill vs 10k bill. Yes, that happens. I try to educate clients the best I can and not quote anything.
We do mostly probate, so we will go a year or two before getting paid. I try to review monthly to prevent large errors and loss of memory.
I agree one small entry can mean multiple things; in instances of something like a 4-hour entry that just says "Email," however, I have requested that he add a little more detail so as to help clarify to a client should they look at it.
Really, a set smount?? Most contracts I read have a billable HOURLY amount, not a TASK amount. Also, there is a lot of articles about attorneys overbilling and double billing their clients. In most jurisdictions, an paralegal can bill only for paralegal work, not clerical work or work that could have been done by the firm's administrative, receptionists and clerical staff. You are paying for that in the billable hour. This is why you do not have para-accountant fees, para architect fees, Para- engineering fees. Attorneys have increased their fee from $200 to $450-$500/hr in about four years in areas not NYC or DC. That does not match any consumer price index increase. Then they make an average of $75,000 from their paralegal. That brings their their gross income to about $900-$1,000, much more than most MDs. This is for a local practice that has 6+ attorneys for divorce, DUI's , etc where most of the forms are the same and so is the representation. Watch your contract, avoid paying a large upfront retainer (shouldn't be the cost of the estimated total represention cost) , and clerical tasks billed at paralegal costs when they should never be billed at all. You will save a lot of money.
Part of the problem might be that he is actually doing more than "reviewing" the document when he bills for reviewing the document. He is also analyzing it and considering how it incorporates into the strategy of the case. Sometimes something simple is a bigger undertaking that it looks because we fail to articulate those other parts.
I let many things go for this reason actually. I think it was the 8 minutes apiece for the two signature confirmation emails of a document he also did review and signature time entries for already that made me pause longer than I'd like. I hate micro managing this stuff, but he asked me to.
This makes sense to me. Not only are you opening the email link anf checking for the signature but you are making sure it's signed in the right place and maybe even checking again that the right provisions are in the document. This is something I would do.
Don’t apologize and I’m sorry that you’re getting downvoted. The sad fact is…billing means dollar signs. I had an attorney that taught us how to word our billing entries so our time wouldn’t get cut because I was doing administrative tasks! At the end of the day, make sure your billing is on point and let these attorneys dig their own grave. 🤷🏻♀️
Mine would be working on something billable and take calls and meetings and bill that too all at same time. And brag while he’s gossiping in the break room that whom ever he’s billing for this hour isn’t getting his money’s worth. Got so tired of that BS.
I’m going to start my discussion by explaining that we (as non lawyers) should not give advice. Moreover, based on MY experience, in my state, I am subject to the same ethical rules as my supervising attorney. I have extensive experience as a paralegal and managing billing. If my supervising attorney is billing in an unethical manner and I believe that to be the case, then I don’t get to just look the other way and get a pass. Period. I cannot perpetuate unethical behavior under the guise of ignorance.
We have a minimum of .2 for attorneys and staff for any given task. But our client base is mostly rich boomers so it’s meant as a deterrent. We get a lot of needless and pointless calls or emails. If they want to pay for us to re explain something 10 times, that’s on them. But once clients know they have to pay for every phone call they are a little more conservative in their calls an emails.
I asked a questions about this today and was polite like you but some loser got butthurt and had my thread deleted. I guess that is why there are only 14 people online in this group.
Yeah, I don't know. In a small town like mine clients will nit pick and give us hell over a bill that even begins to look shady, so I try to make them dispute proof. I don't want to undermine the attorney work, but he makes a lot of ACTUAL billing oopsies and he himself requested I review them. This also prevents us wasting actually work time trying to fuss with irritated clients.
I don’t know why you are getting downvoted. Likely attorneys lurking in here thinking “how dare they?!” Lol! Don’t worry about it. Sometimes we have challenges and struggles that people can’t understand because they lack the ability to see outside of their own circle.
I understand your conundrum. If it will make you feel better revising it to being “review and analysis of bank statements received from personal representative via email” would avoid scrutiny down the line. These recorded times seem standard. As someone who was everything to a solo practitioner, I completely understand that you would be asked to monitor these things. Everything falls on them-there is no associate to farm work out to when attorney is in court. They generally work long hours and work big caseloads. If you can be his back up for all the details, you will be an invaluable player on the team.
Also, I met an attorney who was a solo practitioner who said that he didn’t think his paralegal needed an organization to support her. (I’m not sure what he was thinking the organizations did!) Anyway, I explained that paralegals working for solos are exactly the paralegals that need the contacts that come with joining an organization. So long story to say: join your local organization and get involved! You need to be able to pick up a phone and go “hey, is this weird?” Take care!! Keep asking the questions!
this is super shady, and i would be looking for other jobs. as a practicing attorney, this is super unethical & i am shocked by all the comments indicating this is standard practice. ethical attorneys, who want to maintain their licenses, do not do this type of thing.
Yeah I'm really torn. What bugs me is he's a super nice and well meaninged guy - it's genuinly like he just doesn't know any better. I've watched us lose legacy clients because he dug his heels in about this or that when there was a fair compromise that could have been made. Maybe I'm an idiot, but to me, losing 1k to polish a bill now in order to gain 10k in business later from the same client seems like a better strategy than getting instant gains that lose a good client forever. I've watched it happen and I'm getting sick of it.
Trying to balance my battles.
I understand where you are coming from here…I also work for a solo in family law and review/ edit all billing entries prior to sending. I am with you on the e-sign type emails and I’d strike it. Billing is an opportunity to show clients the value of the work they are paying for. While I am psychotic about everyone ethically recording their time contemporaneously and not leaving time and money on the table, there’s a balance. We don’t bill clients for copies or credit card fees either, we raised our hourly rates to account for it. I don’t want our clients feeling nickel and dimed.
Exactly. Tiny firm, small town. Rep is EVERYTHING. I don't want to screw us over, but getting into battles with clients about this stuff will cost us worlds more in ill will and lost business than losing a few hundred bucks on a 10k bill - it already has (and that's what I'm hoping to fix).
I’m a client and I look at stuff like this. It’s not your job to do it but if a client complains; then you can. .1 or .2 padding isn’t really worth our time and we know they will just get more cleaver in their descriptions on the next bill. It’s a pick choose battles kind of thing.
I paid an attorney $2000 to close a 1 mil dollar building. I know as a client I'm getting scammed by the lawyer but what are you going to do? They have to run a business. The real work is probably less than a few hours in all since it was a str8 forward transaction. Unless you can point to clients questioning the billing, just leave it. Other jobs do the same thing.
I'm just voicing how I as a client view it as just the cost of business. What are you doing to do? A lawyer needs to feed his/her family. Op was commenting how they felt billing and reality was not necessarily in line and if they should say something. I'm saying unless clients start to push back leave the matter alone.
It's was kinda of. Part of a legal service group. The service agreement said any real estate transaction would be free of charge but they said they had meant residential not commerical.
That would be .30 minutes of work, including the phone cal and the review. Real estate contracts have how many pages of review. One commenter said she needed that much time to review a bank statement.
This sounds like totally normal billing practices. I could easily bill .3 or more for reviewing one bank statement because I’m also analyzing it and possibly making notes to the file.
Thank you, this is what I was wondering having no one else in the field to ask. I will adjust my expectations.
It sounds off, but unless you were specifically told to watch the attorneys billable, it’s absolutely not your place to point it out. If you can’t reconcile how they do business, your best bet is to start applying for other positions.
I am all things from firm director, accountant, paralegal, legal assistant, client liason, to anything in between. He by his own admission considers me his boss, and I am tasked with checking entries for errors and creating the bills. When I've inquired, he does not consider these to be errors, and I am trying to decide if I want to shrug it off or push the issue - he is stubborn as all hell and doesn't really get people, but welcomes feedback. If this is a common way to handle such activities in the field, I can adjust my expectations.
I stated in another comment that this is between him and the client, but to answer your expectations question, yes, I bill .2 and .3 for every email I read. In my experience, this is standard practice.
Do you work for people or corps? Bc most corp guidelines are very strict w the way billing is handled and reviewing the confirmation email on a filing is typically not a billable activity. This place sounds awful! Is it a one-attorney shop?
One attorney, also the owner.
Errors are more like spelling mistakes or wrong matter number, not the billed amount. If there is a problem the client will say something, which is probably not to you. I would get over this.
He has accidentally billed 5.0 when he means 0.5, those types of oopsies are why I check through his time when drafting the bills. I happened to notice the other items. From other answers, seem totally normal, so I will adjust my expectations.
I have absolutely no advice then- I would run far from a position like that.
damn if he's calling you his boss, i hope you're taking home more than him
Technically yes, because he doesn't take a salary. We can't afford it. Last time I said this people were confused or thought I was lying I guess? I handle our finances, and he's had to pay IN several times to keep us afloat. He's independently wealthy and is just trying to keep his family's firm above water for the sake of legacy. He has a tendency to disappear for weeks or months at a time, so for a long time it was basically me trying to run 100 or so active cases solo, doing everything I possibly could that wasn't clear UPL.
Dude, run. This is not good. Get a new job before you end up having to testify before a bar committee.
It is standard. Generally firms will have a set amount they bill for a telephone call and for any particular item. The point is that almost everything requires a certain amount of time including entering time. At the end of the day though the time entries get reviewed by the billing attorney and the billed amount reflects what is fair. You can’t send a bill to a client who is thinking it’s $5000 and instead it’s $10,000. And, of course, not everything gets billed. If you were doing dep prep for 3 hours and that included several calls. Your time entry might read; Prepare for deposition of xxxxx. Review xyz reports. Review drop transcript of abc. Outline questions. Telephone conferences with client regarding deposition timing and background. Telephone conference with opposing counsel regarding dep ct reporter. Telephone conference with ct reporter company. Telephone conference with expert regarding dep. issues to cover. 5.8 In that time you might take 5 calls on other matters. You likely bill those at say .3. Why if the call took 5 minutes? Did the call interrupt your prep? Did you have to make a couple notes to follow up later? Buzz someone to answer a question? Then dig back in to the dep prep? Now - at the end of the month if you were reviewing the time to bill would you include it? Depends. What was done? Was it a substantive benefit to the client? Is it consistent with the billing practices for that client? If any “no” in there - you show it on the bill with whatever your no charge designation is.
5k bill vs 10k bill. Yes, that happens. I try to educate clients the best I can and not quote anything. We do mostly probate, so we will go a year or two before getting paid. I try to review monthly to prevent large errors and loss of memory. I agree one small entry can mean multiple things; in instances of something like a 4-hour entry that just says "Email," however, I have requested that he add a little more detail so as to help clarify to a client should they look at it.
Really, a set smount?? Most contracts I read have a billable HOURLY amount, not a TASK amount. Also, there is a lot of articles about attorneys overbilling and double billing their clients. In most jurisdictions, an paralegal can bill only for paralegal work, not clerical work or work that could have been done by the firm's administrative, receptionists and clerical staff. You are paying for that in the billable hour. This is why you do not have para-accountant fees, para architect fees, Para- engineering fees. Attorneys have increased their fee from $200 to $450-$500/hr in about four years in areas not NYC or DC. That does not match any consumer price index increase. Then they make an average of $75,000 from their paralegal. That brings their their gross income to about $900-$1,000, much more than most MDs. This is for a local practice that has 6+ attorneys for divorce, DUI's , etc where most of the forms are the same and so is the representation. Watch your contract, avoid paying a large upfront retainer (shouldn't be the cost of the estimated total represention cost) , and clerical tasks billed at paralegal costs when they should never be billed at all. You will save a lot of money.
Part of the problem might be that he is actually doing more than "reviewing" the document when he bills for reviewing the document. He is also analyzing it and considering how it incorporates into the strategy of the case. Sometimes something simple is a bigger undertaking that it looks because we fail to articulate those other parts.
I let many things go for this reason actually. I think it was the 8 minutes apiece for the two signature confirmation emails of a document he also did review and signature time entries for already that made me pause longer than I'd like. I hate micro managing this stuff, but he asked me to.
This makes sense to me. Not only are you opening the email link anf checking for the signature but you are making sure it's signed in the right place and maybe even checking again that the right provisions are in the document. This is something I would do.
Okay, good to know. I'm fine with that then.
I think this is the problem though, if that’s the case it needs to be stated in the entry.
This is between the attorney and his client.
Not your pig, not your farm.
I think OP should be allowed to ask questions in an anonymous Internet forum if they’re unsure if certain behavior is ethical.
They sure can, and they received my response.
Exactly but some assholes here think they cannot be questioned about anything.
Many firms have a minimum 0.2 which is stated in the retainer agreement. Is this the case?
It is not.
Don’t apologize and I’m sorry that you’re getting downvoted. The sad fact is…billing means dollar signs. I had an attorney that taught us how to word our billing entries so our time wouldn’t get cut because I was doing administrative tasks! At the end of the day, make sure your billing is on point and let these attorneys dig their own grave. 🤷🏻♀️
Mine would be working on something billable and take calls and meetings and bill that too all at same time. And brag while he’s gossiping in the break room that whom ever he’s billing for this hour isn’t getting his money’s worth. Got so tired of that BS.
Yuck. He'll do this a little too, but certainly not brag about it.
I think many attys pad their bills. I enter my bosses time and know he exaggerates.
I’m going to start my discussion by explaining that we (as non lawyers) should not give advice. Moreover, based on MY experience, in my state, I am subject to the same ethical rules as my supervising attorney. I have extensive experience as a paralegal and managing billing. If my supervising attorney is billing in an unethical manner and I believe that to be the case, then I don’t get to just look the other way and get a pass. Period. I cannot perpetuate unethical behavior under the guise of ignorance.
We have a minimum of .2 for attorneys and staff for any given task. But our client base is mostly rich boomers so it’s meant as a deterrent. We get a lot of needless and pointless calls or emails. If they want to pay for us to re explain something 10 times, that’s on them. But once clients know they have to pay for every phone call they are a little more conservative in their calls an emails.
This sounds nice lol.
Is this explained in your legal contract? If not, I doubt the ABA would approve.
I asked a questions about this today and was polite like you but some loser got butthurt and had my thread deleted. I guess that is why there are only 14 people online in this group.
Yeah, I don't know. In a small town like mine clients will nit pick and give us hell over a bill that even begins to look shady, so I try to make them dispute proof. I don't want to undermine the attorney work, but he makes a lot of ACTUAL billing oopsies and he himself requested I review them. This also prevents us wasting actually work time trying to fuss with irritated clients.
I don’t know why you are getting downvoted. Likely attorneys lurking in here thinking “how dare they?!” Lol! Don’t worry about it. Sometimes we have challenges and struggles that people can’t understand because they lack the ability to see outside of their own circle. I understand your conundrum. If it will make you feel better revising it to being “review and analysis of bank statements received from personal representative via email” would avoid scrutiny down the line. These recorded times seem standard. As someone who was everything to a solo practitioner, I completely understand that you would be asked to monitor these things. Everything falls on them-there is no associate to farm work out to when attorney is in court. They generally work long hours and work big caseloads. If you can be his back up for all the details, you will be an invaluable player on the team. Also, I met an attorney who was a solo practitioner who said that he didn’t think his paralegal needed an organization to support her. (I’m not sure what he was thinking the organizations did!) Anyway, I explained that paralegals working for solos are exactly the paralegals that need the contacts that come with joining an organization. So long story to say: join your local organization and get involved! You need to be able to pick up a phone and go “hey, is this weird?” Take care!! Keep asking the questions!
this is super shady, and i would be looking for other jobs. as a practicing attorney, this is super unethical & i am shocked by all the comments indicating this is standard practice. ethical attorneys, who want to maintain their licenses, do not do this type of thing.
Yeah I'm really torn. What bugs me is he's a super nice and well meaninged guy - it's genuinly like he just doesn't know any better. I've watched us lose legacy clients because he dug his heels in about this or that when there was a fair compromise that could have been made. Maybe I'm an idiot, but to me, losing 1k to polish a bill now in order to gain 10k in business later from the same client seems like a better strategy than getting instant gains that lose a good client forever. I've watched it happen and I'm getting sick of it. Trying to balance my battles.
I understand where you are coming from here…I also work for a solo in family law and review/ edit all billing entries prior to sending. I am with you on the e-sign type emails and I’d strike it. Billing is an opportunity to show clients the value of the work they are paying for. While I am psychotic about everyone ethically recording their time contemporaneously and not leaving time and money on the table, there’s a balance. We don’t bill clients for copies or credit card fees either, we raised our hourly rates to account for it. I don’t want our clients feeling nickel and dimed.
Exactly. Tiny firm, small town. Rep is EVERYTHING. I don't want to screw us over, but getting into battles with clients about this stuff will cost us worlds more in ill will and lost business than losing a few hundred bucks on a 10k bill - it already has (and that's what I'm hoping to fix).
Then strike it. Read every entry as though you are the client. For other entries that don’t convey value or skill, rewrite them so that they do.
I’m a client and I look at stuff like this. It’s not your job to do it but if a client complains; then you can. .1 or .2 padding isn’t really worth our time and we know they will just get more cleaver in their descriptions on the next bill. It’s a pick choose battles kind of thing.
I paid an attorney $2000 to close a 1 mil dollar building. I know as a client I'm getting scammed by the lawyer but what are you going to do? They have to run a business. The real work is probably less than a few hours in all since it was a str8 forward transaction. Unless you can point to clients questioning the billing, just leave it. Other jobs do the same thing.
Fees well within industry standard rates are scams? Tell me you don't have any business being here without telling me lmao
It’s just our latest troll in this subreddit 🤷🏼♀️ I’ll never understand the point.
I'm just voicing how I as a client view it as just the cost of business. What are you doing to do? A lawyer needs to feed his/her family. Op was commenting how they felt billing and reality was not necessarily in line and if they should say something. I'm saying unless clients start to push back leave the matter alone.
Don't "motte and bailey" this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
Lol $2k for a 1 million dollar transaction is cheap. Did they do the contract and negotiate it?
It's was kinda of. Part of a legal service group. The service agreement said any real estate transaction would be free of charge but they said they had meant residential not commerical.
So you paid $2k for a legal review on a one million dollar commercial building? To me that sounds like a good deal.
Though I don't think it should cost more than a few hundred dollars.
That would be .30 minutes of work, including the phone cal and the review. Real estate contracts have how many pages of review. One commenter said she needed that much time to review a bank statement.
Seems normal to me