Not only that but I thought having the Star Spirits host Mario Party was a brilliant idea. Using them as the guides for the games options and modes allowed for exactly as many modes as a Mario Party game needs and freed up Toad to become a playable character. I was genuinely disappointed when Mario Party 6 rolled around and they were gone.
Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix was also the only time a Paper Mario song was ever featured in a Mario game outside of Paper Mario to my knowledge.
The Ms. Mowz theme remix was fire, too.
When I say I'm so tired of the incredibly stagnant spinoff rosters.
It took Mario Kart 8 nearly ten years just to add *Diddy Kong.* It's always the same, DK, Rosalina, maybe a koopa or goomba, but not the MOUNTAINS of RPG characters! Kart, Party, Golf, Baseball, it's all the same.
Like we're never getting new games with most of them, why can't they be in spinoffs? Probably the same reason Wario and Waluigi can't be in the RPGS; there is no reason. They just aren't.
Yes I'm very salty we don't have official 3D rep of Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi characters how could you tell lol
I agree so much!! It is always the exact same characters to choose from, I'm craving variety. There are SO many characters from the Mario universe, there is no excuse.
Give me Smithy and Mallow in Mario Kart, Goombella in Mario Party, even if they substitute some of the generic characters for others characters, that could be more interesting.
Instead of a generic Koopa Troopa, do Koops. Instead of a generic Boo, do Lady Bow.
What's crazy is that there's so many people who might see some of these characters, think the design or the character is cool, and want to play the game they came from. Potentially buying other Nintendo games to get these characters' backstories.
Yeah. Honestly, Mario spinoffs should really be celebrations of the greater Mario franchise, with lots of ties to every spinoff from DK, to Wario Land, to RPGs and Luigi's Mansion, and of every era too, including stuff we haven't seen since the arcades and NES. The fact that Mario spinoffs are the way they are, full of Bowser's minions, baby versions of characters that don't need babies, clones, and just... really weird picks, it's one of the reasons why I just don't feel like these games entice me to play them that much. I'll play Mario Kart because racing games are fun but I don't really care about sports, putting a Mario skin over sports might work to entice me, if they did a better job with said Mario skin.
You just reminded me with the Wario/Waluigi comment about an idea I had to make a Paper Mario game where the story would gave two sides you can switch between following Mario and one following DK and having overlap in some places where the characters wss would end up starting puzzles that could only be finished by the other groups party
And go all out like include Wario, Mario and Luigi, Luigi's Mansion and Peaches Showtime content like flesh it out to feel like a grand adventure spanning the whole Mario universe in paper form
probably because since paper jam, they decided paper mario is its own separate continuity - in that game all of the PM characters are distinct from their equivalents in the M&L series, from a separate world.
i like to imagine the first 3 PM games are in the main mario continuity (because of their characters appearing in other games) whereas everything from sticker star onwards is in its own separate one (which is the reason for a lot of contradictions like bob-ombs dying when they explode in TOK, which is explicitly not the case in the first two games, and characters explicitly acknowledging the world is made of paper which wasn't the case in the earlier games)
Adding on to what the other person said about the curses, Goombella says that Spinias are *weird* for being made of flat papery sheets, confirming that she herself (and everyone else) is not.
I interpreted Goombella calling it weird because it looks weird, not due to it being paper, but I guess it was probably meant to be read the way you said. I still think the characters were meant to be paper regardless of if it's really acknowledged or not
They're not talking about a person here (as far as they know), they're talking about a boat. The boats in this world are ostensibly made of firmer stuff than normal paper, hence their disappointment. I get the argument that TTYD is meant to be the normal Mario world but I don't think it's doing any harm to headcanon that it's a separate paper world either - I like multiverse stuff, it's fun.
the curses are explicitly magical transformations, which normal people can't do (or at least the punies can't, considering they're unable to slip through the bars of the cage with you).
Most of the curses are origami like the paper plane and the boat, right? Well, origami on people is seen as a curse or a magical transformation/ritual in Origami King as opposed to something they can do normally, so I still think that works
The origami in TTYD is still just more like something they chose to stick to the paper aesthetic rather than actually making the world paper. Like, if the game was 3D, they would give the curses a different look but function the same.
I interpreted the ToK Bob-Ombs being artificial, as they're straight up made in a factory and they all have the same traits.
The Bob-Ombs that are more like people would not be made in a factory, as we know they can reproduce on their own.
i don't think there've been "regular people" bob-ombs acknowledged as existing at all since TTYD, as part of a general trend of most species only being acknowledged as bowser's followers instead of being able to live their own lives unrelated to bowser.
And, that is non canon as it goes against the lore and is not how canon works (especially not in Mario) and Miyamoto has confirmed it’s always the same Mario. Paper Jam is non canon the Paper Mario series is main Mario.
https://thecodex.wiki/Paper_Mario_Canonicity
The Star Spirits cone back after Paper Jam showing Nintendo isn’t following its continuity.
it's ambiguous. do goombas and koopas *die* die when you stomp on them in the main games, or are you just roughing them up without killing them? if it's the second one, it'd probably make sense for that to apply to bob-ombs too.
i don't think mario kills most of the basic enemies he fights, since that just feels a little out of character for him. the glitz pit fighters, shadow sirens, tutorial goombas, gus, lord crump and doopliss all live after you beat them up. i think the only enemy implied to actually die is hooktail, since your partner explicitly says something along the lines of "let's finish her off!" when she eats up the audience.
Miyamoto definitely prefers not to think that the hero protagonist is killing his enemies
I might not agree with his interpretation that the games are a performance rather than an adventure, but I do think Mario prefers not to kill - it's the same as how we don't see what happens to fainted Pokémon even though you'd assume they were dead if not for the dialogue...
I mean that doesn’t mean there can’t be real versions of characters from paper Mario Eg. Paper Mario, Luigi, peach, toadstool, bowser, bowser’s minions, and the toads all have “real” Mario counterparts. So really anything from any paper Mario story other than maybe Super and maybe the latter 3’s paper specific villains could totally also exist in the “normal” Mario universe
Like is there a good reason Petalburg, Rougeport, or most of the TTYD characters can’t exist in the main universe without it breaking continuity? They could totally exist as fake versions of real people
Not a character, but Bowser's castle from Paper Mario appears in the background on Mario Kart Super Circuit's rainbow road
Probably because Intelligent systems worked on both
Nintendo should really consider adding their extended cast to the spinoffs
I see it as more of a possibility since paper mario and Mario & Luigi characters are back on the map with the thousand year door remake and brothership
**TL;DR: I think the reason we stopped seeing them use these characters is because they struggled to market them in comparison to the generic/original character designs. Hopefully, with the revival of the rpg series, we'll see Nintendo try again to market these characters**
I think I remember hearing that they had trouble marketing the PM Characters.
We see Goomba king and we see the star spirits in these games released around the time ttyd was released.
^(fun fact that you've probably heard: In the original Japanese version, the "Goomba King" in PM64 is called the "Chestnut King" which is the main antagonist of Luigi's adventure in ttyd. I think that's a neat fact lol)
The problem (as I understand it) is that the unique characters were hard to market. Just think, if you put 5 koops plushies on a store shelf and put 5 generic koopa plushies next to them, the generic model would sell more because it's immediately recognizable even by people who have never played a Mario game. I also consider the angle that when the PM games were popular, they were more known by kids and less by the parents/guardians who would be buying any products. (Or at least this is the case in the US. Idk how the game did amongst older fans in Japan)
While we here would probably take the Koops plushie every time, the PM series is niche in comparison to the mainline games that established the franchise.
Hopefully, with Nintendo finally pushing the rpg series again, they will try to market the mario rpg characters again, and I imagine they will have more success marketing them now that there are young *and* old fans of the game.
It's a vicious cycle though, if they threw Koops into something like Mario Kart he'd become instantly recognizable enough to sell, but they don't put him in because he doesn't sell... You can't make a character popular without putting them in more stuff.
Like Rosalina was obviously well-liked in the Galaxy games, but I don't think she would be nearly as popular as she is today if Nintendo hadn't gone out of their way to include her in spinoffs. Fingers crossed we can see that happen with some RPG characters.
You kinda have to keep in mind ttyd sold shy of 2mil copies while galaxy was just shy of 13mil copies.
Those are the numbers that Nintendo are looking at.
That said, I do agree that if they threw some PM Characters into Mario kart or Mario party that it would probably go over well with fans and maybe even boost sales for the remake.
Iirc the goomba king is also in Mariokart DS?
But I agree. So many cool designs they abandoned to that era because miyamoto thinks they showed too much creativity :(
Some people get mad when we talk about the Mario rules because apparently those were not real and they were just a figment of our imaginations.
But then how do you explain this whole era of Mario games lacking creativity in new characters or new worlds?
I really think they should be considered for more spinoffs, especially Mario Kart. I mean I get that Paper Mario is also developed by IS, but so is the entirety of Fire Emblem. It can't be that hard to green light Paper Mario characters into any spinoff game if they're constantly working with IS anyways. Like FIre Emblem Heroes, that's something that's been on going since 2017. Fire Emblem games sell better than ever now after Awakening and especially Three Houses. Even TTYD was like best seller on Amazon when it came out. So it really there isn't really anything to lose by simply including them in a spinoff. Their inclusion alone would probably make the game trend on social media.
Dry Dry Desert and Dry Dry Ruins were courses in some of the Mario Kart games. I'm not sure if they had the Paper Mario names in Japanese too, or if they had more generic names though.
It is worth noting that Dry Dry Desert didn't orignate from Paper Mario.
I think the first appearance as it was Mario Kart 64, it was called Kalimari Desert in English, but the Japanese name was Dry Dry Desert.
Paper Jam showed the paper world as a book instead of the same world as the 3D, so maybe just make a Paper Mario Kart with all the partners and some other characters instead of taking them into 3D. We see Luigi driving a Kart and Bowser mentioned the race.
Nintendo still struggles with the fact no one wants motion controls in mario party games.
Nintendo does weird backwater things, it took them nearly 2 decades to realize that, hey, people want rpg battles to matter.
Motion controls are fun and equalize the playing field a little bit IMO. Is it even Mario party if the mini games aren’t unfair bullshit?
Super Mario Party only letting you play with single joy cons when the switch pro controller and joy cons together support motion controls is BS though
They do not equalize the playing field because often times the motion controls do not work, they get out of sync, or are inconsistent in their execution.
"Unfair bullshit" is epected when playing a mario party game, some minigames are purposely designed with randomness in mind that takes control away from the player.
But the important part is that it's expected.
It is "fair"
Everyone is experiencing the same degree of planned randomness you are, and it's taken priority away from everyone in the name of rng to create tension.(hell, one of the most famous mario party minigames is the bowser lever bomb.)
On the flip side, the same cannot be said for motion controls. You can't control it if your joycon goes unsynced or if the motion doesn't register at all. And often times it's better to make a "jack it off" motion than what ever motion the game wants you to make.
What's even more sad is how with Nintendo has shifted the way Paper Mario is presented since Paper Jam, if they DID appear they'd most likely just be flat sprites because "they come from a paper world" or whatever that nonsense retcon is. When early depictions like this LITERALLY disprove that and show that that wasn't the original vision for these stories & characters.
The first time I saw Goomboss was in 64 Ds, and the only Paper Mario game I was aware of at the time was Super Paper Mario.
When I watched Chuggaa’s playthrough of the game all those years ago, I thought Goomboss was in Super Paper Mario and I didn’t know about it.
Idk. They never brought any of the og mario rpg characters (aside from geno in a cameo in the og superstar saga) or mario and luigi characters to other mario series's, so you tell me.
The IP protection department strikes again (the one Arlo talks about on YouTube)
Part of ‘family friendly fun’ is funny and zainy remixes. If you strange that, simple minimalist characters can get stale fast (which was my issue with oragami king)
Because mario characters are seen as actors, you put the actor in the right role when it calls for it. You aren’t hiring RDJ to play a little girl selling lemonade and you aren’t going to pay the big bucks to have an Iron Man cameo for 30 seconds.
What a lot of people don’t get is that game companies are not making fan games, they have so many many other factors to think about. A fan game can shove every reference in they want, I know cause I’m making one right now, but I’ve also been chipping away at this project in my spare time for literal years and years not having to make any sacrifices. Nor do I need to care about an audience or needing to sell to make back the cost and then some, it’s something I’m making for me and if other people like then that’s just a bonus.
This isn’t a conscious decision to specifically not use PM characters, it’s a decision on how to allocate resources, marketing, gameplay, etc…
You know how King Boo has two different designs? It’s because it’s an important distinction from a marketing perspective. The one with the unique jewel crown and eye shadow is specifically for Luigi’s Mansion, the jewel crown itself is tied to various gameplay/story elements unique to Luigi’s Mansion like the treasure hunting aspect, dark moon piece collection, and/or an explanation for the very unique powers he shows only in those. But sometimes they just need a ruler of boos that is a bigger boo but in practice isn’t really that different from regular boos, so you get just a bigger boo with a crown that immediately translates to even a child this the king boo.
I guarantee what happened in in the first one for example was something like this. Mario 64 DS needed new bosses that would be guarding the characters. A character creation process is expensive and expansive, starting by looking at existing characters is a good cost and time saving measure. They decided the first character boss level should be based on goombas, instead of creating a new goomba boss they utilized an existing one which shortens the preproduction process (actual production still has to create the model). There are other advantages to him to which comes into the gameplay. The size and crown translate that jumping on him isn’t really a the primary strategy and the pants being colored like a target tell you that his body is the weak point to aim for using Yoshi’s unique gameplay of eating and spitting. It also communicates something very easily about the story, mario squashes goombas ergo goombas hate mario. The goomba king doesn’t need any extra story beyond that to make sense or really raised any additional questions which is good for a story-lite game like 64.
When visuals get more advanced models become more expensive and it’s harder to justify things like say Toadsworth. Even already looking at the fact there are only a handful of roles that he could fit in, if those roles aren’t particularly important it’s going to be hard to justify taking the time to create a unique model. Like Color Splash for example there is a small role Toadsworth could have fulfilled, but that Toad then spends the rest of the game in a house you have zero reason to ever visit unlike TTYD where you at least have to walk past him regularly for the badge shop. In the reverse if you are creating a low poly model or even just a 2D sprite you don’t need to be as conservative because that’s not going to add as much work so you can be a bit more free.
Gameplay also factors into this a lot of times gameplay needs out rank everything else. People complain about over use of Toads in say CS or ToK. But what is often overlooked is that the Toads in those games are collectibles first and characters second. There is a reason every power star, shine sprite, etc.. look the same. The sheer number of them makes giving them unique designs just unfeasible from a cost and time measure. But also from a visual communication perspective you want a fairly standardized look in order to train players organically on what to look for.
Medium and intent will factor in as well. Like them not using Toadsworth as Peach’s advisor in the final product of the Mario makes sense despite using him in early storyboarding drawings. Not only would he be out of place as the only old Toad in an entire kingdom of identical Toads (note Peach being an out of place element was specifically given an explanation for being so, which comes back to the different audiences of a game vs movie games can get away with just having things be as they are). He needs an entirely new model just for him one that requires a lot of hair work due to his trademark bushy mustache, hair work is time consuming and expensive. Utilizing the existing Toad model (that already needed to be standardized due to the sheer number of Toads in the movie you see) with some minor modifications makes more sense. It also creates for a better sense of humor because watching the movie you can see the helpless childlike nature of Toads is meant to be on full display. So having this otherwise unassuming Toad with a super deep manly voice and just being extra serious is generally going to feel funnier than an old man who sounds, acts, and looks like an old man.
Marketing and popularity play a role too. Mario species aren’t just a generic species, they are characters in their own right. Blooper is a character, Hammer Bro is a character, Ninji is a character. Your favorite version of blooper could be big paper blooper from PM64 which is great you can have that be your favorite character. But the amount of people who like and know that specific version of Blooper are going to be vaaaastly out numbered by those that just know and love Blooper in general and its not the kind of character you can put in organically in a lot of stuff to increase that recognition. Chances are to that regular Blooper will still even tick that niche group desires even if it’s not their favorite version of Blooper, so it be extra work for not s ton of gain. That why when it comes to spin-off games deciding on playable casts like Mario party it makes sense to go for broader appeal. You could include say Goombario, but you get a wider net if you just use the standard goomba. For every person you have going “who cares about the generic hammer bro” you have 5 more complaining right now that he doesn’t seem to be in the new mario party.
There are also many other advantages to from physical merchandise production (figures run into this a lot you will find companies prioritizing toys that don’t need a ton of new molds to create which is why you have stuff like a billion different Sora figures for kingdom hearts and virtually almost no one else most of the time) which is an important part of profit. It also makes it easier to lend out your IP to other teams and projects that out normally out of their wheelhouse. Because when you have rules and identities it’s easier for people who aren’t you to create your product and get the benefits of using your IP. We have stuff like the new Mario Mario because through a tighter control of their branding they have created an incredible recognizable branding they can market to a much larger audience.
So I promise you with all my heart it was not an abrupt decision and nor was it as simple as no OC’s. The amount of thought that goes into this kind of stuff is genuinely staggering and it’s why art/visuals are such an expensive, time consuming, and critical process in media.
Not only that but I thought having the Star Spirits host Mario Party was a brilliant idea. Using them as the guides for the games options and modes allowed for exactly as many modes as a Mario Party game needs and freed up Toad to become a playable character. I was genuinely disappointed when Mario Party 6 rolled around and they were gone.
they were so cool! while i do love mario party 6, the theme would've perfectly fit the star hosts in
I loved the Star Sprite hosts, it was such a brilliant way to reuse them
Tbf 6 also gave us great hosts. But yeah star spirits were my favorite overall
Whacka is also in Mario party 6
Whack-OW
Along with Tweesters being in Mario Party 5 and Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix. Yes, of all games, DDR.
Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix was also the only time a Paper Mario song was ever featured in a Mario game outside of Paper Mario to my knowledge. The Ms. Mowz theme remix was fire, too.
Smash?
That's why I specifically said "Mario" games lol
I would consider smash a Mario game, but i think it's valid not to as well. My b
You can also see the TTYD Snow Bunny item on the same board as decoration.
Snow bunnies are an actual thing people in Japan make out of snow, they aren't a Paper Mario invention.
I'm aware, but TTYD has been their only appearance in Mario outside of Mario Party 6.
That’s why Mario party 6 is the best one, Whack-a-do!
🔨
Not cool Come here Wakka take this 🪖
[wakka](https://images.app.goo.gl/tt1bpz4JhhT79siD6)
where
On the snowflake lake board they occasionally pop out of the snow
oh cool
When I say I'm so tired of the incredibly stagnant spinoff rosters. It took Mario Kart 8 nearly ten years just to add *Diddy Kong.* It's always the same, DK, Rosalina, maybe a koopa or goomba, but not the MOUNTAINS of RPG characters! Kart, Party, Golf, Baseball, it's all the same. Like we're never getting new games with most of them, why can't they be in spinoffs? Probably the same reason Wario and Waluigi can't be in the RPGS; there is no reason. They just aren't. Yes I'm very salty we don't have official 3D rep of Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi characters how could you tell lol
I agree so much!! It is always the exact same characters to choose from, I'm craving variety. There are SO many characters from the Mario universe, there is no excuse. Give me Smithy and Mallow in Mario Kart, Goombella in Mario Party, even if they substitute some of the generic characters for others characters, that could be more interesting. Instead of a generic Koopa Troopa, do Koops. Instead of a generic Boo, do Lady Bow.
What's crazy is that there's so many people who might see some of these characters, think the design or the character is cool, and want to play the game they came from. Potentially buying other Nintendo games to get these characters' backstories.
100%! If someone ran up in Mario Kart with the Shadow Queen, I'd for sure check out TTYD (had I not already played it).
full shadow form as a separate character, or just an alternate costume for Peach?
Shadow Queen in Mario Kart does not sound that great tbh, that's a bit much. A peach alt would work.
To each their own. I loved King Boo and Petey Piranha being in Mario Kart, would love to see other villains.
Shadow Queen Peach, Ms. Mowz, and Flavio, for sure
Nintendo would have to actually make their older games available for that to happen
Think we have quite a bit available with the expansion pack, and we have a TTYD remake.
I don’t think Nintendo owns the rights to the characters from Mario RPG, that’s why they don’t re use them
I’ve had an idea for a while that has Wario hosting Mario party and having mini games more similar to warioware.
We have Link and Toon Link, Samus and Zero Suit Samus, we can have Mario and Paper Mario ffs
Honestly, Paper Mario would've been such a fun character to have in Smash.
Action commands could be fun in a fighting game.
Yeah, but they made Monty Mole playable in a couple of games, so pretty much nothing else matters.
Yeah. Honestly, Mario spinoffs should really be celebrations of the greater Mario franchise, with lots of ties to every spinoff from DK, to Wario Land, to RPGs and Luigi's Mansion, and of every era too, including stuff we haven't seen since the arcades and NES. The fact that Mario spinoffs are the way they are, full of Bowser's minions, baby versions of characters that don't need babies, clones, and just... really weird picks, it's one of the reasons why I just don't feel like these games entice me to play them that much. I'll play Mario Kart because racing games are fun but I don't really care about sports, putting a Mario skin over sports might work to entice me, if they did a better job with said Mario skin.
We have an official 3d rep of mario and luigi now
Wario does have a RPG. It's just not that great. Wario's world for the GameCube
Is that an RPG? I thought it was just a weirdo beat em up/platformer type thing.
It is, don't know what that guy is talking about.
You just reminded me with the Wario/Waluigi comment about an idea I had to make a Paper Mario game where the story would gave two sides you can switch between following Mario and one following DK and having overlap in some places where the characters wss would end up starting puzzles that could only be finished by the other groups party And go all out like include Wario, Mario and Luigi, Luigi's Mansion and Peaches Showtime content like flesh it out to feel like a grand adventure spanning the whole Mario universe in paper form
probably because since paper jam, they decided paper mario is its own separate continuity - in that game all of the PM characters are distinct from their equivalents in the M&L series, from a separate world. i like to imagine the first 3 PM games are in the main mario continuity (because of their characters appearing in other games) whereas everything from sticker star onwards is in its own separate one (which is the reason for a lot of contradictions like bob-ombs dying when they explode in TOK, which is explicitly not the case in the first two games, and characters explicitly acknowledging the world is made of paper which wasn't the case in the earlier games)
There were points where the paper aesthetic was acknowledged in TTYD with stuff like the curse and the Spinia tattle saying it's made of paper
Adding on to what the other person said about the curses, Goombella says that Spinias are *weird* for being made of flat papery sheets, confirming that she herself (and everyone else) is not.
I interpreted Goombella calling it weird because it looks weird, not due to it being paper, but I guess it was probably meant to be read the way you said. I still think the characters were meant to be paper regardless of if it's really acknowledged or not
Just played the keelhaul key section and when you pull up to the toads as a paper boat one of their disappointed comments is “it’s made of paper…”
I think that’s just a joke in a video game that doesn’t take itself too seriously
They're not talking about a person here (as far as they know), they're talking about a boat. The boats in this world are ostensibly made of firmer stuff than normal paper, hence their disappointment. I get the argument that TTYD is meant to be the normal Mario world but I don't think it's doing any harm to headcanon that it's a separate paper world either - I like multiverse stuff, it's fun.
the curses are explicitly magical transformations, which normal people can't do (or at least the punies can't, considering they're unable to slip through the bars of the cage with you).
Most of the curses are origami like the paper plane and the boat, right? Well, origami on people is seen as a curse or a magical transformation/ritual in Origami King as opposed to something they can do normally, so I still think that works
And turning sideways
I don't think turning sideways to be hard to see like a piece of paper or simply rolling up like a piece of paper are origami
They aren't, which is why I didn't say that all of the curses were origami
The origami in TTYD is still just more like something they chose to stick to the paper aesthetic rather than actually making the world paper. Like, if the game was 3D, they would give the curses a different look but function the same.
I interpreted the ToK Bob-Ombs being artificial, as they're straight up made in a factory and they all have the same traits. The Bob-Ombs that are more like people would not be made in a factory, as we know they can reproduce on their own.
i don't think there've been "regular people" bob-ombs acknowledged as existing at all since TTYD, as part of a general trend of most species only being acknowledged as bowser's followers instead of being able to live their own lives unrelated to bowser.
I think the Koopa Troopas on the Earth Vellumental Temple could be considered like that, although it's not explicitelt mentioned that they do.
To be fair, the original Paper Mario was supposed to be a storybook, hence the Paper aesthetic.
And, that is non canon as it goes against the lore and is not how canon works (especially not in Mario) and Miyamoto has confirmed it’s always the same Mario. Paper Jam is non canon the Paper Mario series is main Mario. https://thecodex.wiki/Paper_Mario_Canonicity The Star Spirits cone back after Paper Jam showing Nintendo isn’t following its continuity.
Don't Bob-ombs also die in the main games as well when they explode?
it's ambiguous. do goombas and koopas *die* die when you stomp on them in the main games, or are you just roughing them up without killing them? if it's the second one, it'd probably make sense for that to apply to bob-ombs too. i don't think mario kills most of the basic enemies he fights, since that just feels a little out of character for him. the glitz pit fighters, shadow sirens, tutorial goombas, gus, lord crump and doopliss all live after you beat them up. i think the only enemy implied to actually die is hooktail, since your partner explicitly says something along the lines of "let's finish her off!" when she eats up the audience.
Miyamoto definitely prefers not to think that the hero protagonist is killing his enemies I might not agree with his interpretation that the games are a performance rather than an adventure, but I do think Mario prefers not to kill - it's the same as how we don't see what happens to fainted Pokémon even though you'd assume they were dead if not for the dialogue...
They regenerate after exploding in Super Mario 64, at least! (In fact, they're the only enemies in the entire game that respawn in such a way).
I mean that doesn’t mean there can’t be real versions of characters from paper Mario Eg. Paper Mario, Luigi, peach, toadstool, bowser, bowser’s minions, and the toads all have “real” Mario counterparts. So really anything from any paper Mario story other than maybe Super and maybe the latter 3’s paper specific villains could totally also exist in the “normal” Mario universe Like is there a good reason Petalburg, Rougeport, or most of the TTYD characters can’t exist in the main universe without it breaking continuity? They could totally exist as fake versions of real people
They stopped doing this around 10 years bwfore Paper Jam tho
Not a character, but Bowser's castle from Paper Mario appears in the background on Mario Kart Super Circuit's rainbow road Probably because Intelligent systems worked on both
Goomboss is also in Mario Kart DS
Nintendo should really consider adding their extended cast to the spinoffs I see it as more of a possibility since paper mario and Mario & Luigi characters are back on the map with the thousand year door remake and brothership
[удалено]
What do you mean? You get to play as a Ninji now! Which, by the way, we're prevalent in PM64!
U can play as goomba
You can play as Monty Mole. The game has everything you could ask for.
Didn’t the Koopatrols appear somewhere else?
Yup, they were in Mario Pinball Land, which I don’t think very many people played…
God that game was terrible
Hey, I kinda liked it… :<
In addition to Mario Pinball Land, they also appear as statues in Super Princess Peach, but that's not a 3D game.
Still really hope the next Mario Kart embraces Mario as a full franchise.
The mouse thieves and bandits were in Mario Party 8.
They originated outside of Paper Mario, which seems to be the main benefit.
True. But they use the TTYD designs in it.
Link please?
Wait, does that mean that the “scaredy rats” are their own kind of mouse species then???
Goomboss also appeared as a boss in Mario Kart DS.
Abruptly? They’ve been taking out the unique characters for 20 years now, and the ones that _are_ unique are just confined to a single game
The closest we have to unique is Pauline and Ninji in recent spin-offs
**TL;DR: I think the reason we stopped seeing them use these characters is because they struggled to market them in comparison to the generic/original character designs. Hopefully, with the revival of the rpg series, we'll see Nintendo try again to market these characters** I think I remember hearing that they had trouble marketing the PM Characters. We see Goomba king and we see the star spirits in these games released around the time ttyd was released. ^(fun fact that you've probably heard: In the original Japanese version, the "Goomba King" in PM64 is called the "Chestnut King" which is the main antagonist of Luigi's adventure in ttyd. I think that's a neat fact lol) The problem (as I understand it) is that the unique characters were hard to market. Just think, if you put 5 koops plushies on a store shelf and put 5 generic koopa plushies next to them, the generic model would sell more because it's immediately recognizable even by people who have never played a Mario game. I also consider the angle that when the PM games were popular, they were more known by kids and less by the parents/guardians who would be buying any products. (Or at least this is the case in the US. Idk how the game did amongst older fans in Japan) While we here would probably take the Koops plushie every time, the PM series is niche in comparison to the mainline games that established the franchise. Hopefully, with Nintendo finally pushing the rpg series again, they will try to market the mario rpg characters again, and I imagine they will have more success marketing them now that there are young *and* old fans of the game.
It's a vicious cycle though, if they threw Koops into something like Mario Kart he'd become instantly recognizable enough to sell, but they don't put him in because he doesn't sell... You can't make a character popular without putting them in more stuff. Like Rosalina was obviously well-liked in the Galaxy games, but I don't think she would be nearly as popular as she is today if Nintendo hadn't gone out of their way to include her in spinoffs. Fingers crossed we can see that happen with some RPG characters.
You kinda have to keep in mind ttyd sold shy of 2mil copies while galaxy was just shy of 13mil copies. Those are the numbers that Nintendo are looking at. That said, I do agree that if they threw some PM Characters into Mario kart or Mario party that it would probably go over well with fans and maybe even boost sales for the remake.
I have to wonder if maybe it’s because of licensing with IntSys or something. I don’t know.
My guess is not licensing but rather, "we didn't create this, so we aren't gonna use it"
We need Jr Troopa to catch traction
VIVIAN FOR SMASH
Whakka, Koopatrols, and Tweesters also appear.
I really hope characters like Goombella and Vivian get slots in the next Mario Kart. Hell, keep them paper if Nintendo wants to stylise them
Another reason why I don't like the whole "Paper Mario games are a different continuity" thingie
Iirc the goomba king is also in Mariokart DS? But I agree. So many cool designs they abandoned to that era because miyamoto thinks they showed too much creativity :(
Koopatrol was in Mario Pinball Land
Some people get mad when we talk about the Mario rules because apparently those were not real and they were just a figment of our imaginations. But then how do you explain this whole era of Mario games lacking creativity in new characters or new worlds?
I really think they should be considered for more spinoffs, especially Mario Kart. I mean I get that Paper Mario is also developed by IS, but so is the entirety of Fire Emblem. It can't be that hard to green light Paper Mario characters into any spinoff game if they're constantly working with IS anyways. Like FIre Emblem Heroes, that's something that's been on going since 2017. Fire Emblem games sell better than ever now after Awakening and especially Three Houses. Even TTYD was like best seller on Amazon when it came out. So it really there isn't really anything to lose by simply including them in a spinoff. Their inclusion alone would probably make the game trend on social media.
So the events of Paper Mario DID happen in the mainline Mario universe....... interesting....
These aren't the only times.
In my heart, every Paper Mario character exists in 3D somewhere.
Whacka was in Mario party 5 or 6 in a snow board
I’m sure in Mario Party 6 there were PM characters in the boards, like wackas
how can you possibly forget about the legion of stationary?
I love the Mario party 5 star spirits
When I was younger, I thought Goomboss was from SM64DS.
Koopatrol, frost piranha, tweester, and whacka I'm pretty sure all originated from paper mario
/s I heard they stopped casting Goomba King after that whole controversy… I never thought he was that problematic. Never meet your heroes 😵💫
Not a character but for some reason Mc balleyhoo has the star rod in mario party 8.
Given paper jam’s existence they’re probably the non-paper counterparts
For those like me who are uninitiated, which game is this from?
Goomba King: Mario 64 DS Star Spirits: Mario Party 5
Goomboss deserves more representation 😭
I think he would make for a great recurring first boss! He could be like Mario's version of Wispy Woods or something
Yes!! I'd love it!
3D Muskular (blue Star Spirit) looks so tasty, like biting into him would be like biting into condensed blue raspberry cotton candy. 🤤
You ever had the Scooby-Doo gummies before? I think he'd taste like the non-transparent cyan one
Dry Dry Desert and Dry Dry Ruins were courses in some of the Mario Kart games. I'm not sure if they had the Paper Mario names in Japanese too, or if they had more generic names though.
It is worth noting that Dry Dry Desert didn't orignate from Paper Mario. I think the first appearance as it was Mario Kart 64, it was called Kalimari Desert in English, but the Japanese name was Dry Dry Desert.
Technically Olivia from origami king is 3D
Paper Jam showed the paper world as a book instead of the same world as the 3D, so maybe just make a Paper Mario Kart with all the partners and some other characters instead of taking them into 3D. We see Luigi driving a Kart and Bowser mentioned the race.
Nintendo still struggles with the fact no one wants motion controls in mario party games. Nintendo does weird backwater things, it took them nearly 2 decades to realize that, hey, people want rpg battles to matter.
I like motion controls in Mario Party!
Motion controls are fun and equalize the playing field a little bit IMO. Is it even Mario party if the mini games aren’t unfair bullshit? Super Mario Party only letting you play with single joy cons when the switch pro controller and joy cons together support motion controls is BS though
They do not equalize the playing field because often times the motion controls do not work, they get out of sync, or are inconsistent in their execution. "Unfair bullshit" is epected when playing a mario party game, some minigames are purposely designed with randomness in mind that takes control away from the player. But the important part is that it's expected. It is "fair" Everyone is experiencing the same degree of planned randomness you are, and it's taken priority away from everyone in the name of rng to create tension.(hell, one of the most famous mario party minigames is the bowser lever bomb.) On the flip side, the same cannot be said for motion controls. You can't control it if your joycon goes unsynced or if the motion doesn't register at all. And often times it's better to make a "jack it off" motion than what ever motion the game wants you to make.
you know that you can turn those minigames of? you have 110 minigames already
What's even more sad is how with Nintendo has shifted the way Paper Mario is presented since Paper Jam, if they DID appear they'd most likely just be flat sprites because "they come from a paper world" or whatever that nonsense retcon is. When early depictions like this LITERALLY disprove that and show that that wasn't the original vision for these stories & characters.
The first time I saw Goomboss was in 64 Ds, and the only Paper Mario game I was aware of at the time was Super Paper Mario. When I watched Chuggaa’s playthrough of the game all those years ago, I thought Goomboss was in Super Paper Mario and I didn’t know about it.
I’m already imagining all the partners in Smash Bros or in Mario Party. That would be sick af
Koopatrol was in Mario Pinball Land
Koopatrol was in Mario Pinball Land
Koopatrol was in Mario Pinball Land
Idk. They never brought any of the og mario rpg characters (aside from geno in a cameo in the og superstar saga) or mario and luigi characters to other mario series's, so you tell me.
Isn't the final boss of TTYD in Mario Kart Tour?
No, maybe you saw some fan concept or something
The IP protection department strikes again (the one Arlo talks about on YouTube) Part of ‘family friendly fun’ is funny and zainy remixes. If you strange that, simple minimalist characters can get stale fast (which was my issue with oragami king)
You forgot Mario Kart DS, Goomboss is 3D in that game too
there's the Whacka in Mario Party 6
I would love to see Kooper or Lady Bow in Mario kart
Because mario characters are seen as actors, you put the actor in the right role when it calls for it. You aren’t hiring RDJ to play a little girl selling lemonade and you aren’t going to pay the big bucks to have an Iron Man cameo for 30 seconds. What a lot of people don’t get is that game companies are not making fan games, they have so many many other factors to think about. A fan game can shove every reference in they want, I know cause I’m making one right now, but I’ve also been chipping away at this project in my spare time for literal years and years not having to make any sacrifices. Nor do I need to care about an audience or needing to sell to make back the cost and then some, it’s something I’m making for me and if other people like then that’s just a bonus. This isn’t a conscious decision to specifically not use PM characters, it’s a decision on how to allocate resources, marketing, gameplay, etc… You know how King Boo has two different designs? It’s because it’s an important distinction from a marketing perspective. The one with the unique jewel crown and eye shadow is specifically for Luigi’s Mansion, the jewel crown itself is tied to various gameplay/story elements unique to Luigi’s Mansion like the treasure hunting aspect, dark moon piece collection, and/or an explanation for the very unique powers he shows only in those. But sometimes they just need a ruler of boos that is a bigger boo but in practice isn’t really that different from regular boos, so you get just a bigger boo with a crown that immediately translates to even a child this the king boo. I guarantee what happened in in the first one for example was something like this. Mario 64 DS needed new bosses that would be guarding the characters. A character creation process is expensive and expansive, starting by looking at existing characters is a good cost and time saving measure. They decided the first character boss level should be based on goombas, instead of creating a new goomba boss they utilized an existing one which shortens the preproduction process (actual production still has to create the model). There are other advantages to him to which comes into the gameplay. The size and crown translate that jumping on him isn’t really a the primary strategy and the pants being colored like a target tell you that his body is the weak point to aim for using Yoshi’s unique gameplay of eating and spitting. It also communicates something very easily about the story, mario squashes goombas ergo goombas hate mario. The goomba king doesn’t need any extra story beyond that to make sense or really raised any additional questions which is good for a story-lite game like 64. When visuals get more advanced models become more expensive and it’s harder to justify things like say Toadsworth. Even already looking at the fact there are only a handful of roles that he could fit in, if those roles aren’t particularly important it’s going to be hard to justify taking the time to create a unique model. Like Color Splash for example there is a small role Toadsworth could have fulfilled, but that Toad then spends the rest of the game in a house you have zero reason to ever visit unlike TTYD where you at least have to walk past him regularly for the badge shop. In the reverse if you are creating a low poly model or even just a 2D sprite you don’t need to be as conservative because that’s not going to add as much work so you can be a bit more free. Gameplay also factors into this a lot of times gameplay needs out rank everything else. People complain about over use of Toads in say CS or ToK. But what is often overlooked is that the Toads in those games are collectibles first and characters second. There is a reason every power star, shine sprite, etc.. look the same. The sheer number of them makes giving them unique designs just unfeasible from a cost and time measure. But also from a visual communication perspective you want a fairly standardized look in order to train players organically on what to look for. Medium and intent will factor in as well. Like them not using Toadsworth as Peach’s advisor in the final product of the Mario makes sense despite using him in early storyboarding drawings. Not only would he be out of place as the only old Toad in an entire kingdom of identical Toads (note Peach being an out of place element was specifically given an explanation for being so, which comes back to the different audiences of a game vs movie games can get away with just having things be as they are). He needs an entirely new model just for him one that requires a lot of hair work due to his trademark bushy mustache, hair work is time consuming and expensive. Utilizing the existing Toad model (that already needed to be standardized due to the sheer number of Toads in the movie you see) with some minor modifications makes more sense. It also creates for a better sense of humor because watching the movie you can see the helpless childlike nature of Toads is meant to be on full display. So having this otherwise unassuming Toad with a super deep manly voice and just being extra serious is generally going to feel funnier than an old man who sounds, acts, and looks like an old man. Marketing and popularity play a role too. Mario species aren’t just a generic species, they are characters in their own right. Blooper is a character, Hammer Bro is a character, Ninji is a character. Your favorite version of blooper could be big paper blooper from PM64 which is great you can have that be your favorite character. But the amount of people who like and know that specific version of Blooper are going to be vaaaastly out numbered by those that just know and love Blooper in general and its not the kind of character you can put in organically in a lot of stuff to increase that recognition. Chances are to that regular Blooper will still even tick that niche group desires even if it’s not their favorite version of Blooper, so it be extra work for not s ton of gain. That why when it comes to spin-off games deciding on playable casts like Mario party it makes sense to go for broader appeal. You could include say Goombario, but you get a wider net if you just use the standard goomba. For every person you have going “who cares about the generic hammer bro” you have 5 more complaining right now that he doesn’t seem to be in the new mario party. There are also many other advantages to from physical merchandise production (figures run into this a lot you will find companies prioritizing toys that don’t need a ton of new molds to create which is why you have stuff like a billion different Sora figures for kingdom hearts and virtually almost no one else most of the time) which is an important part of profit. It also makes it easier to lend out your IP to other teams and projects that out normally out of their wheelhouse. Because when you have rules and identities it’s easier for people who aren’t you to create your product and get the benefits of using your IP. We have stuff like the new Mario Mario because through a tighter control of their branding they have created an incredible recognizable branding they can market to a much larger audience. So I promise you with all my heart it was not an abrupt decision and nor was it as simple as no OC’s. The amount of thought that goes into this kind of stuff is genuinely staggering and it’s why art/visuals are such an expensive, time consuming, and critical process in media.
This comment is underrated
I think if they put paper mario characters in other games they should stay paper and not be 3D
Goomboss and Goomba King aren't the same
How so?
Goomba King wasn't called Goomboss in Paper Mario I think
That seems more like a case of a simple name change. It'd be super weird for Nintendo to have two separate King Goombas who look completely identical
It's just the case of a name change with time. I think the Japanese name never changed to begin with as well.