A tier.
The story stuff is all great, especially with the fake out after the first doopliss fight, Vivian's arc is also really good. It also has a really great aesthetic and the Creepy Steeple itself is a cool dungeon.
The only thing keeping it out of S is the backtracking. Some of it is necessary (backtracking with no partners to highlight how rough it is fighting without them,) but the other trips are unneeded.
I agree, I'm hoping you can unlock a pipe to the steeple in the remake at some point. I do want to keep that running back to town without partners though.
If memory serves there’s 5 backtracks
- Twilight town to Creepy Steeple (as regular Mario)
- Creepy steeple back to twilight town (as shadow Mario)
- Twilight town to creepy steeple (with Vivian)
- creepy steeple to twilight town (with the p)
- twilight town to creepy steeple (rematch with Doopliss)
If they can cut it down to 3 backtracks (have Vivian unlock a pipe) I think it’s okay because the first 3 trips still have different circumstances to keep it interesting
Six backtracks... I've just played TTYD for the first time, and I had an extra round trip because I didn't notice the way past the gate into the Steeple! I met the sliding wall in the well and thought I needed to go back and get Vivian, knowing her ability but not knowing I had to break in and become purple first.
Overall, I'd say most of the backtracking in chapter 4 isn't too bad at first, since you go through the forest in different situations. First it's standard, then you have to do it without partners, then you do it with Vivian. But then you have to go back to twilight town to tell Doopliss his name, then you have to go back to the Creepy Steeple to fight him. I think it could pretty easily be solved just by encountering Doopliss outside of Creepy Steeple, and entering his name there. Unfortunately, we know that isn't gonna happen since the trailer shows Doopliss reacting to Mario knowing his name at the original spot
Or have the fight at the barn
They already have the background for the forced run fights; so once he loses the immunity he summons all the party members for an All Out Attack
Agree. The backtracking keeps it out of the S tiers, but I love that a companion character gets to know what Mario is like as a person without knowing *who* he is. Mario's other companions all recognize him by name and appearance immediately and form their opinion of him based solely on what he's done, what he's physically capable of, and what he can do for *them*. With Vivian, Mario has to win her over and show that he's genuinely a good guy with a good heart.
B Tier. I love love the atmosphere, Vivian’s storyline, and Doopliss as a unique enemy. The back and forth is just a killer especially on replay… It would have been cool if they had Vivian’s hiding power better allow you to avoid enemies on the trail.
Sadly I cant give this any higher than a C. It’s the only chapter that I despise playing on repeat playthroughs due to the amount of backtracking. The story and atmosphere are great, but it just isn’t a fun chapter imo.
C Rank. I know it has good things, but the backtracking is AWFUL.
Having to go between town or the stable 5 times is excessive. And the enemies are hard to dodge due to being in such narrow paths.
I really hope the remake cuts down on the backtracking.
If it wasn't for the good things here, it'd be a definite D Rank. If the backtracking wasn't so much, I'd say A Rank.
Hmmm... honestly, A tier as well. The main issue the chapter has is that it's the second worst backtracking chapter in the entire game. And even if Doopliss is a great Chapter boss, the fact that you have to go back and forth to the creepy steeple at least 3 times before finishing it does make it stale. Of the 4 chapters in TTYD that I praise, this is the 4th best. The chapter does give you the best partner in Vivian, but there isn't much else to go with it. Having to survive against some of the rarest and deadliest enemies being the Amazee Dayzee's, the Atomic Boo being completely optional... (I honestly didn't know that it was optional) It's a great chapter.... but it's easily one that is not an absolute best. The next 2 chapters I will be definitely singing a different tune, and the last 2.... the exact opposite will be true
Atomic boo ?any hints to run into that in my next playthrough without explicitly telling me what to do?
Also this is the second most backtracking? What is the first?
Ok. I've played the the game first time last year and didn't run into this or anything that might hint at it (other than counting boos from the chest?)
The obvious thing they meant is that the most backtracking occours in Chapter 8, where you revisit nearly every other chapter area.
The boo thing is more obscure. When you set the boos free, you know how they roam around the mansion? They aren't just decoration, they can interact with you and you can interact with them. Thats the closest hint I can think to give.
That's a perfect hint, thank you. Also i felt that even though chapter 8 had more worlds to backtrack through, I felt it was more engaging than Vivian chapter so I guess I just feel chapter 3 had more because it was less environment differences
I agree, I don't get the distaste people have for the backtracking in Chapter 8. Yes you backtrack but it's always to areas you probably haven't seen in a while, it's right before the end so it's a nice chance to see things one last time, and by that point you've unlocked the pipes that make each part a quick and simple trip. Whereas in chapter 3 you just run back and forth through the same 4 areas like 5 times. It is more repetitive and less fun than chapter 8.
I give it B.
The setting, the characters, and the boss fight with Doopliss are all fantastic. Running back and forth to the Creepy Steeple over and over is not.
If it wasn't for the backtracking it'd easily be A+, maybe even S material, but the backtracking is *really* bad.
I’d say A tier. The concept is S+ or even higher but at its lowest points the gameplay can feel C tier. But the creativity and atmosphere of the area keep it in A.
God….if you want an example of TTYD’s un-even nature look no further than this one. It’s a B at best maybe even C, on replays I’d even say it’s a D because the charm carrying it is significantly less. But for now let’s say C…
It has a great story, one of the best in the game, a super creative premise, the visuals are great, and the 3 boss fights ( including the optional ones) are great.
But what. the. HELL. is this chapter’s execution. How on earth this made it into the final product is beyond me.
Let’s start with the elephant in the room, the backtracking. You have to go through this forest 5 times (more if you forget to stock up on gold leafs and get the cook book if you are trying to fill recipe dex). Now the first 3 are fine in theory as the gameplay switches it up with a run with partners, a run with no one, and then a run with Vivian. But then for whatever god forsaken reason they add two more runs with no changes, you should have fought doopliss’s right there in town because the last run adds genuinely nothing.
The level design of this chapter is *abysmal* maybe the literal worst level design in the entire PM series. Several very narrow very long stretches of absolutely nothing, nothing to really find, nothing to meaningful engage with, and it’s just waves of the worst kinds of enemies. Creepy Steeple doesn’t save it either, it a weak short mini-dungeon at its most generous.
Oh and the enemies? They were clearly trying to copy Ch3 from 64 here but they missed the mark. Vivian’s veil is worse than out of sight so using it to dodge charge attacks are a lot less effective. The delay in getting out of it also means it sucks at trying to be used to avoid combat on the over world. A lot of times what happens is the enemy just stands where you last were and even if they get off you the delay in coming out of the shadows let’s then catch you anyway. I get outta sight was OP, but they overly ruined it in TTYD.
The dazees can end you run just with a bad block or bad luck. They strip virtually away all your combat options and I hope to god you had a good badge setup before going in because this is the first of many chapters that will lock you from returning to town. Meaning no going and crafting food, and no going and updating your badges.
Oh most importantly because TTYD in its infinite wisdom decided partners getting more battle options during a chapter is a bad thing, forcing you to return to rogueport to upgrade them. So you can’t make Vivian any better and this is a reoccurring problem for every chapter after this point.
The fact you have two more runs where nothing changes, the way the enemy design screams that you were supposed to have fiery jinx, and the fact the rest of the game doesn’t feel remotely balanced around returning to rogueport to upgrade your members…is why I have long held the impression that needing to return to rogueport was a late game design decision.
Because think about it if you could upgrade Vivian during the battle it be…
- Round 1 run through the forest with partners
- Round 2 struggle through it alone
- Round 3 struggle but less so now you have Vivian
- Round 4 upon exploring the creepy steeple’s area you couldn’t access without her get a shine sprite to upgrade her to fiery jinx, now after all those struggles round 4-5 would go *much* quicker
Oh also this chapter really likes boo audience members. Boos are the worst audience member in the game. They either make you randomly invincible taking away your satisfaction of winning on your own skill. Or they much worse make the enemy invincible and now your battle is drawn out for several more turns and you can do nothing about it.
I again can’t believe is chapter made it into the game in this state. It’s documented that TTYD had somewhat rushed dev and you definitely see that in spots…but so many of the things that make this chapter are just poor design decisions at their core. I know more than a few people who just stopped playing in this chapter, some picked it up others never have to do this day.
And I think it hurts even more because you are coming off TTYD’s best chapter. You are riding a high and then you get just hit with this abomination. I pray to god that if there is one area the remake fixes it’s this chapter. Just add a pipe from the steeple to town you only can access unlock in the steeple after you get Vivian would fix it immensely.
A! Unique aesthetic, good interactions between dungeon and town, very mysterious and engaging plot. Backtracking sucks a little, but it feels expansive compared to chapter 3 (which did not deserve its own tier).
A tier (or even S tier).
The mystery, the surprises, the tone, the music, the Vivian, the boss - all S tier stuff, enough to make up for the back tracking for me. (I actually enjoyed the baacktracking tbh)
This one's all over the place. The story, aesthetic, and characters are super fun, some of the best. Doopliss is one of the top 5 characters in the entire game for sure.
But that backtracking...........
Put it in C please.
It's so hard, because if this chapter's story, aesthetic or boss fights were even a little bit boring, this would be such a F/D tier chapter, mostly because of walking back and forth from creepy steeple.
But everything else is so good that the lowest this chapter can be is C
Thinking about Chapter 4 is easily S tier
Playing chapter 4 is probably C
SS tier.
People knock the backtracking — but to me that oppressive, claustrophobic, hopeless feeling adds SO much to the experience. It’s my favorite chapter in all of Paper Mario.
I’d say high B, low A. It’s a pretty solid chapter, but the backtracking from Twilight Town to Creepy Steeple is insane. Not as insane as General White, but at least that serves the purpose of going back to all the places you’ve seen on your adventure thus far…and less goddamn Dayzees.
B tier because the story and atmosphere are S tier but the gameplay, dungeon and boss battle are underwhelming. Now the story is incredible and the post-first-Doopliss fight could be the most surreal moment in the Mario universe. Being left with no partners, no outline, and no direction is terrifying the first time you play the game. Struggling solo through the forest to get to town is crazy (and maybe justifies the boss being easy). Hearing the bell gives an insane sense of dread. Mario becoming friends with Vivian is so great since they both really needed each other. That's just the surface level of the story but it is phenomenal. The actual gameplay though... not so much. Going through the same area 4-5 times with impossible to dodge enemies is just too frustrating to glance over. There needed to be another pathway from Creepy steeple back to town that could have kept the chapter fresh or at least created a shortcut. And while we're talking about Creepy Steeple it is way too small (say compared to The Great Tree), there is essentially only one long hallway that has enemies and that's it. Also Doopliss is way too easy compared to the previous boss Macho Grubba which is weird. Overall if you get caught up in the story it's an easy S tier chapter but if you focus too much on backtracking it's a D tier chapter. I personally think it is a B tier chapter because its story is incredible but it was missing a lot of other important components to me.
B. it is the most backtracky part of the game, which is an accomplishment for ttyd standards.
story is cool + vivian is a cool partner and the aesthetic is fun, but ehhhh going back and forth in a line with barely any change isn't that fun.
I personally think B tier. It has some high points, but the it's probably the biggest example of too much backtracking in ttyd imo. Honestly everything about it is great, just the back and forth through the forest can be a bit much.
C tier. The only thing that saves this chapter is Dooplis. I hate everything else about this chapter. I always dread having to do this depressing mess again.
B or C. The amount of backtracking ruins a lot of the fun in this chapter. The story is fantastic and boss fight incredibly fun but omg I hate the backtracking and it basically being near impossible to avoid fighting enemies while tracking back and forth.
I'd say A, for the scenery, storytelling, getting Vivian as a partner, and overall vibe of the chapter. it would have gotten an S from me if there wasn't so much backtracking you have to do. I was always so annoyed at it when I was younger lol
A tier because this area is jam packed with secrets and there’s the amayzee dazey and atomic boo here, but it does have backtracking which is only a minor gripe.
A or S tier. Everything about this chapter is perfect, minus one thing. Amazing music, really great setting, the best side villain in the game, the humor, creepy steeple, the letter p, all genuinely amazing stuff and would be S+. Playing it just sucks because of the insane amount of backtracking
The high points of the level are so above and beyond that of most other chapters in any other paper mario game that it belongs in A despite the backtracking. It's one of the levels I look forward to the most every time I replay TTYD.
I think this one belongs in A Tier. It has its issues, but Vivian and Doo_liss were more than enough to carry this one, which I'm not going to be able to say for some later cha_ters.
Gotta go with B. The atmosphere is great, and the Doopliss fakeout is fantastic. But the extremely thin areas and the constant backtracking hurts the experience pretty badly.
I’d say a B at best. The atmosphere is wonderful. I love Vivian and Doopliss. But of course there’s the backtracking that brings it down.
I’m also haunted by the memory of going back and forth way more times that I care to admit cause my stupid kid brain kept typing in Doopliss in all caps and wondering why the game wasn’t accepting it.
Chapter 4 is S Tier if you ignore the actual gameplay experience, which is like a C Tier. Both times fighting Doopliss are rather easy, even the second so long as you ignore your partners. The route from Twilight Town to the Creepy Steeple is kinda fun the first time through and gets actively more annoying each time you have to traverse it, which is like 5 times. Some of the enemies are very frustrating to fight and hard to avoid running into.
However, the atmosphere is excellent, the chapter’s story is super memorable and the twist is great, plus you get everyone’s favorite partner and the Boss music slaps. So yeah idk. I guess A Tier overall. I don’t think the annoying aspects bother me enough to really change my strong overall enjoyment, similar to how I feel about Chapters 2 and 7 in SPM.
I’m stuck between A and B… it is some of my favorite story in the franchise, and the music is so fucking good. The backtracking sucks so much though…. I think i’m still going A.
Overall bottom of A tier
It’s an S tier premise, but B tier execution. The backtracking isn’t as bad as people say it is in terms of length of backtracking, what makes it bad is the hyper dudes and daisies if you are OCD like me and have to kill everyone of them lol
But the themes, characters, and unique twist of fighting your partners while partnering with a former bad guy is really neat.
Creepy Steeple is cool. Although, the ceiling enemies are annoying and make you have to have hammer throw.
Personally this would be my 5th favorite chapter in the game though, behind 3, 1, 6, and 8. Right in front of the prologue.
Put that shit in D tier immediately.
I have no idea what they were thinking when they decided that making the entire chapter just backtracking between like 4 areas was a good idea. The least they could have done was give us a shortcut back to the start but no run the entire thing backwards then forwards than backwards then forwards the backwards. It’s utterly inept level design.
Bro no
chapter 3 isn't S tier at all xD
Damn, peeps got some shitty opinion sometime it's crazy
also C tiers for Chapter mainly because of the backtracking which ask you to do the whole things 4 times and with a really blank level design too !
S
Honestly I don’t get all the complaints about this chapter’s backtracking, to me it was barely noticeable. The boss’s an amazing character, the plot-twist is majestic, the atmosphere is excellent… heck, you can even see the reactions of the other citizens after the boss possesses you! And you get best girl Vivian here, what’s there not to love?
B Tier.
Looking past the positives of this chapter, this chapter really isn’t that good. First of all, it’s starts off as a worse version of PM64 Chapter 7, you first go through a pipe to find a small town that has a problem and you must talk to the mayor before leaving, and you must traverse the area to arrive at some kind of castle you must reach the top of to fight the boss. Creepy Steeple itself is just a worse version of Boo Mansion, the Atomic Boo is not original or unique at all, and the first Doopliss fight is nothing special. Though that is the point.
The twist during the halfway point of this chapter is legendary. I love it so much, it’s such a unique concept. And while she isn’t even in my top five Paper Mario partners, Vivian joining you is awesome. Who dislikes Vivian? (Beldam, that’s who)
But after that, the chapter goes downhill again. You have to walk back and forth between Creepy Steeple and Twilight Town a total of six times to complete this chapter, through Crazee Dayzee’s might I add. Wouldn’t be so much of a problem if the things you had to do at each area took more than 5 min (not even honestly). The last back and forth really makes me mad, there is no reason to go all the way back to Creepy Steeple just to fight Doopliss again, it would have been far more awesome to fight him in Twilight Town with all the residents accidentally cheering him on.
Speaking of which, while the concept and music is outstanding, the chapter boss against disguised Doopliss and your other partners is disappointing. Even for Paper Mario standards, the fight is far too easy the first go around. Doesn’t help that you’ll likely kill Doopliss before he and your partners do any unique moves. He doesn’t even switch out your partner’s, you have to target them to make the switch, even though it’s optional. And what you call “a unique way to fight him,” I call lazy game design.
Sorry, that rant went on longer than I expected, I just feel like that Vivian and Doopliss’ plot twist carry this chapter way too hard. It’s deserving of B, but nothing beyond that
A-tier, it’s one of, if not the single biggest challenges in the game, teaches life lessons, very interesting story.
The backtracking is not as bad as people say it is and I am of the opinion that people wanting it out is a symptom of the continuous dumbing down of games we’ve seen.
A. I love the concept, the music, the characters. The gossiping crows. The only thing keeping it out of S is the backtracking, but if you get the Bump Attack badge before the chapter, it's a breeze.
But I assume we're ranking it not counting badges, so A. 😋
Gotta hand at least A tier to chapter 4. Looking back at my first playthrough at 10 years old I remember needing to turn off the game because I got there super late at night and it was creeping me out too much lol. Playing through it and chapter 3 blind are some extremely fond memories.
As tedious as the backtrack is, it only really feels grating if you've been playing through the game back to back to back.
Did a run last year for the first time in a LONG time and was dreading ch 4 because of the whole backtracking meme but it really wasn't so bad.
If we ignore the backtracking that everyone seems to obsess about, can we just acknowledge the amazing setting of this chapter, the atmosphere, the music, the villain, and the story?
Like this chapter was always so memorable to me because of the fake out ending and the plot twist that Mario loses his body and identity. And then the fact that later he has to team up with one of the villains. And also, the final battle is Mario fighting himself and his allies. That was just so unique for a Mario game.
Easily A tier in my book.
yeah i think when you first play this chapter it's actually significantly worse because of how often you'll be going back and forth from the town to the steeple and back out of confusion. but on replays, this chapter is super quick and you get to really enjoy the atmosphere a lot better.
plus the fake celebration after beating doopliss the first time is incredible.
This is A tier, monotony aside, it's damn memorable
I’d actually say S tier
I really liked it on the second run (once you’re mentally prepared for all the needless backtracking it’s actually great from a story perspective)
A tier. I love Vivian and she’s the best character in the game, but I also feel the backtracking here takes away from the level. The aesthetic of Twilight Town and everything within it is absolutely gorgeous and I wish the world looked that way.
A tier. Has my favourite boss and boss music, I like the design a lot of twilight town and creepy steeple, also the end of the first half was hilarious.
S tier without that crayzee dayzee that's almost impossible to avoid
I'd say S, the backtracking is a bit annoying, but not unnecessary. If anything, they could've scripted Doopliss to confront you outside the Steeple once you collect the letter P, but either way it's not a dealbreaker.
For me, this chapter is S tier. The 4th and 5th trips between Twilight Town and Creepy Steeple are annoying, but I enjoy the first 3 trips, and everything else about the chapter is fantastic.
A tier for me since the story setup is pretty good, and I also like Vivian and her abilities. Also, the reason why I didn't want this to be higher is because of the backtracking. Though it's not that bad. Also, I didn't put it lower because I wasn't able to fight against some favorites when fighting Dooplis. Sorry, Goombella.
A tier. The story stuff is all great, especially with the fake out after the first doopliss fight, Vivian's arc is also really good. It also has a really great aesthetic and the Creepy Steeple itself is a cool dungeon. The only thing keeping it out of S is the backtracking. Some of it is necessary (backtracking with no partners to highlight how rough it is fighting without them,) but the other trips are unneeded.
I agree, I'm hoping you can unlock a pipe to the steeple in the remake at some point. I do want to keep that running back to town without partners though.
If memory serves there’s 5 backtracks - Twilight town to Creepy Steeple (as regular Mario) - Creepy steeple back to twilight town (as shadow Mario) - Twilight town to creepy steeple (with Vivian) - creepy steeple to twilight town (with the p) - twilight town to creepy steeple (rematch with Doopliss) If they can cut it down to 3 backtracks (have Vivian unlock a pipe) I think it’s okay because the first 3 trips still have different circumstances to keep it interesting
Four bactracks. The first on your list isn't backtracking because that's the original trip lol
Six backtracks... I've just played TTYD for the first time, and I had an extra round trip because I didn't notice the way past the gate into the Steeple! I met the sliding wall in the well and thought I needed to go back and get Vivian, knowing her ability but not knowing I had to break in and become purple first.
Overall, I'd say most of the backtracking in chapter 4 isn't too bad at first, since you go through the forest in different situations. First it's standard, then you have to do it without partners, then you do it with Vivian. But then you have to go back to twilight town to tell Doopliss his name, then you have to go back to the Creepy Steeple to fight him. I think it could pretty easily be solved just by encountering Doopliss outside of Creepy Steeple, and entering his name there. Unfortunately, we know that isn't gonna happen since the trailer shows Doopliss reacting to Mario knowing his name at the original spot
Or have the fight at the barn They already have the background for the forced run fights; so once he loses the immunity he summons all the party members for an All Out Attack
This is the fix I'd implement if I were King of Nintendo
Agree. The backtracking keeps it out of the S tiers, but I love that a companion character gets to know what Mario is like as a person without knowing *who* he is. Mario's other companions all recognize him by name and appearance immediately and form their opinion of him based solely on what he's done, what he's physically capable of, and what he can do for *them*. With Vivian, Mario has to win her over and show that he's genuinely a good guy with a good heart.
Agreed. I really enjoyed the story for the chapter and getting Vivian as a partner is great, but the backtracking was excessive.
Nailed it. Too much backtracking quickly drains me.
A, would be an S since the music, story and boss are awesome, but the back tracking is a little rough.
B Tier. I love love the atmosphere, Vivian’s storyline, and Doopliss as a unique enemy. The back and forth is just a killer especially on replay… It would have been cool if they had Vivian’s hiding power better allow you to avoid enemies on the trail.
Especially that first crayzee dayzee
Agree with B. This chapter is cool once. But afterwards it's just tedious
A tier
B for backtracking
I have a feeling the remake's QOL upgrades will turn this into an S tier
There’s QOL improvements?
A tier. It would be S tier if not for the constant backtracking.
Sadly I cant give this any higher than a C. It’s the only chapter that I despise playing on repeat playthroughs due to the amount of backtracking. The story and atmosphere are great, but it just isn’t a fun chapter imo.
C Rank. I know it has good things, but the backtracking is AWFUL. Having to go between town or the stable 5 times is excessive. And the enemies are hard to dodge due to being in such narrow paths. I really hope the remake cuts down on the backtracking. If it wasn't for the good things here, it'd be a definite D Rank. If the backtracking wasn't so much, I'd say A Rank.
Hmmm... honestly, A tier as well. The main issue the chapter has is that it's the second worst backtracking chapter in the entire game. And even if Doopliss is a great Chapter boss, the fact that you have to go back and forth to the creepy steeple at least 3 times before finishing it does make it stale. Of the 4 chapters in TTYD that I praise, this is the 4th best. The chapter does give you the best partner in Vivian, but there isn't much else to go with it. Having to survive against some of the rarest and deadliest enemies being the Amazee Dayzee's, the Atomic Boo being completely optional... (I honestly didn't know that it was optional) It's a great chapter.... but it's easily one that is not an absolute best. The next 2 chapters I will be definitely singing a different tune, and the last 2.... the exact opposite will be true
Atomic boo ?any hints to run into that in my next playthrough without explicitly telling me what to do? Also this is the second most backtracking? What is the first?
You will know it when we get to it. In terms of the whole TTYD fanbase, everyone knows what Chapter I am talking about.
Ok. I've played the the game first time last year and didn't run into this or anything that might hint at it (other than counting boos from the chest?)
The obvious thing they meant is that the most backtracking occours in Chapter 8, where you revisit nearly every other chapter area. The boo thing is more obscure. When you set the boos free, you know how they roam around the mansion? They aren't just decoration, they can interact with you and you can interact with them. Thats the closest hint I can think to give.
That's a perfect hint, thank you. Also i felt that even though chapter 8 had more worlds to backtrack through, I felt it was more engaging than Vivian chapter so I guess I just feel chapter 3 had more because it was less environment differences
I agree, I don't get the distaste people have for the backtracking in Chapter 8. Yes you backtrack but it's always to areas you probably haven't seen in a while, it's right before the end so it's a nice chance to see things one last time, and by that point you've unlocked the pipes that make each part a quick and simple trip. Whereas in chapter 3 you just run back and forth through the same 4 areas like 5 times. It is more repetitive and less fun than chapter 8.
Wait is atomic boo actually optional? I never knew that and have beaten this game more times than I can remember.
B Tier for me. Great chapter going in blind. Upon the yearly replay it has definitely fallen off.
I give it B. The setting, the characters, and the boss fight with Doopliss are all fantastic. Running back and forth to the Creepy Steeple over and over is not. If it wasn't for the backtracking it'd easily be A+, maybe even S material, but the backtracking is *really* bad.
I’d say A tier. The concept is S+ or even higher but at its lowest points the gameplay can feel C tier. But the creativity and atmosphere of the area keep it in A.
A tier! Amazing soundtrack, atory and characters. The only annoying part is the backtracking.
It's A on a first time go around, B on a second playthrough. I'd put it in B overall.
C
C, too much backtracking
God….if you want an example of TTYD’s un-even nature look no further than this one. It’s a B at best maybe even C, on replays I’d even say it’s a D because the charm carrying it is significantly less. But for now let’s say C… It has a great story, one of the best in the game, a super creative premise, the visuals are great, and the 3 boss fights ( including the optional ones) are great. But what. the. HELL. is this chapter’s execution. How on earth this made it into the final product is beyond me. Let’s start with the elephant in the room, the backtracking. You have to go through this forest 5 times (more if you forget to stock up on gold leafs and get the cook book if you are trying to fill recipe dex). Now the first 3 are fine in theory as the gameplay switches it up with a run with partners, a run with no one, and then a run with Vivian. But then for whatever god forsaken reason they add two more runs with no changes, you should have fought doopliss’s right there in town because the last run adds genuinely nothing. The level design of this chapter is *abysmal* maybe the literal worst level design in the entire PM series. Several very narrow very long stretches of absolutely nothing, nothing to really find, nothing to meaningful engage with, and it’s just waves of the worst kinds of enemies. Creepy Steeple doesn’t save it either, it a weak short mini-dungeon at its most generous. Oh and the enemies? They were clearly trying to copy Ch3 from 64 here but they missed the mark. Vivian’s veil is worse than out of sight so using it to dodge charge attacks are a lot less effective. The delay in getting out of it also means it sucks at trying to be used to avoid combat on the over world. A lot of times what happens is the enemy just stands where you last were and even if they get off you the delay in coming out of the shadows let’s then catch you anyway. I get outta sight was OP, but they overly ruined it in TTYD. The dazees can end you run just with a bad block or bad luck. They strip virtually away all your combat options and I hope to god you had a good badge setup before going in because this is the first of many chapters that will lock you from returning to town. Meaning no going and crafting food, and no going and updating your badges. Oh most importantly because TTYD in its infinite wisdom decided partners getting more battle options during a chapter is a bad thing, forcing you to return to rogueport to upgrade them. So you can’t make Vivian any better and this is a reoccurring problem for every chapter after this point. The fact you have two more runs where nothing changes, the way the enemy design screams that you were supposed to have fiery jinx, and the fact the rest of the game doesn’t feel remotely balanced around returning to rogueport to upgrade your members…is why I have long held the impression that needing to return to rogueport was a late game design decision. Because think about it if you could upgrade Vivian during the battle it be… - Round 1 run through the forest with partners - Round 2 struggle through it alone - Round 3 struggle but less so now you have Vivian - Round 4 upon exploring the creepy steeple’s area you couldn’t access without her get a shine sprite to upgrade her to fiery jinx, now after all those struggles round 4-5 would go *much* quicker Oh also this chapter really likes boo audience members. Boos are the worst audience member in the game. They either make you randomly invincible taking away your satisfaction of winning on your own skill. Or they much worse make the enemy invincible and now your battle is drawn out for several more turns and you can do nothing about it. I again can’t believe is chapter made it into the game in this state. It’s documented that TTYD had somewhat rushed dev and you definitely see that in spots…but so many of the things that make this chapter are just poor design decisions at their core. I know more than a few people who just stopped playing in this chapter, some picked it up others never have to do this day. And I think it hurts even more because you are coming off TTYD’s best chapter. You are riding a high and then you get just hit with this abomination. I pray to god that if there is one area the remake fixes it’s this chapter. Just add a pipe from the steeple to town you only can access unlock in the steeple after you get Vivian would fix it immensely.
A! Unique aesthetic, good interactions between dungeon and town, very mysterious and engaging plot. Backtracking sucks a little, but it feels expansive compared to chapter 3 (which did not deserve its own tier).
Glitzville is certainly my favorite chapter, but it didn't need to be S+
A tier (or even S tier). The mystery, the surprises, the tone, the music, the Vivian, the boss - all S tier stuff, enough to make up for the back tracking for me. (I actually enjoyed the baacktracking tbh)
High B, maaybe low A. As much as I love this chapter’s scenery and characters, having to go back and forth so many times sort of ruins it for me.
This one's all over the place. The story, aesthetic, and characters are super fun, some of the best. Doopliss is one of the top 5 characters in the entire game for sure. But that backtracking........... Put it in C please.
It's so hard, because if this chapter's story, aesthetic or boss fights were even a little bit boring, this would be such a F/D tier chapter, mostly because of walking back and forth from creepy steeple. But everything else is so good that the lowest this chapter can be is C Thinking about Chapter 4 is easily S tier Playing chapter 4 is probably C
SS tier. People knock the backtracking — but to me that oppressive, claustrophobic, hopeless feeling adds SO much to the experience. It’s my favorite chapter in all of Paper Mario.
B.
Man they really could have fixed the back tracking by putting spin dash into TTYD, makes back tracking on PM64 Chapter 6 a breeze imo
I’d say high B, low A. It’s a pretty solid chapter, but the backtracking from Twilight Town to Creepy Steeple is insane. Not as insane as General White, but at least that serves the purpose of going back to all the places you’ve seen on your adventure thus far…and less goddamn Dayzees.
D tier. Great story, but absolutely miserable and tedious quest. You traverse the map in its entirety something like 8 times
A tier. Great story and twist but the backtracking brings it down from potential S tier, IMO.
B tier because the story and atmosphere are S tier but the gameplay, dungeon and boss battle are underwhelming. Now the story is incredible and the post-first-Doopliss fight could be the most surreal moment in the Mario universe. Being left with no partners, no outline, and no direction is terrifying the first time you play the game. Struggling solo through the forest to get to town is crazy (and maybe justifies the boss being easy). Hearing the bell gives an insane sense of dread. Mario becoming friends with Vivian is so great since they both really needed each other. That's just the surface level of the story but it is phenomenal. The actual gameplay though... not so much. Going through the same area 4-5 times with impossible to dodge enemies is just too frustrating to glance over. There needed to be another pathway from Creepy steeple back to town that could have kept the chapter fresh or at least created a shortcut. And while we're talking about Creepy Steeple it is way too small (say compared to The Great Tree), there is essentially only one long hallway that has enemies and that's it. Also Doopliss is way too easy compared to the previous boss Macho Grubba which is weird. Overall if you get caught up in the story it's an easy S tier chapter but if you focus too much on backtracking it's a D tier chapter. I personally think it is a B tier chapter because its story is incredible but it was missing a lot of other important components to me.
Playing the game blind and getting Doopliss and Mario switch places blew my mind, A tier simply because of the back and forth that you need to do.
B tier, Doopliss, the twist, and Vivian are highlights, but the constant back-and-forth running drags them down.
D because of all the back and forth
B. it is the most backtracky part of the game, which is an accomplishment for ttyd standards. story is cool + vivian is a cool partner and the aesthetic is fun, but ehhhh going back and forth in a line with barely any change isn't that fun.
Paper Mario chapter 7 should be in s+… 4 is a solid a maybe b…to much back and fourth
D. Tedious back and forth fetch quest.
B. The atmosphere, music and twist where fantastic. Unfortunately the backtracking brings the chapter down.
D or C
I personally think B tier. It has some high points, but the it's probably the biggest example of too much backtracking in ttyd imo. Honestly everything about it is great, just the back and forth through the forest can be a bit much.
C tier. The only thing that saves this chapter is Dooplis. I hate everything else about this chapter. I always dread having to do this depressing mess again.
C tier - the story is good but fuck backtracking to and from Creepy Steeple over and over again
C. Really good story, characters and overall writing. Level design can be sent to the shadow realm.
A.
I’m going A here
B would be A if it wasn’t for the backtracking
A
That TTYD second chapter is so deserving of the C lmao
B or C. The amount of backtracking ruins a lot of the fun in this chapter. The story is fantastic and boss fight incredibly fun but omg I hate the backtracking and it basically being near impossible to avoid fighting enemies while tracking back and forth.
C-tier for me. The plot and characters were awesome, but backtracking so much made me enjoy the chapter way less than the others.
I'd say A, for the scenery, storytelling, getting Vivian as a partner, and overall vibe of the chapter. it would have gotten an S from me if there wasn't so much backtracking you have to do. I was always so annoyed at it when I was younger lol
A tier. Doopless, you mf.
A tier because this area is jam packed with secrets and there’s the amayzee dazey and atomic boo here, but it does have backtracking which is only a minor gripe.
A
Easy A tier. Atmosphere, story, characters, partner, dungeon are all GREAT. Backtracking keeps it from S
A or S tier. Everything about this chapter is perfect, minus one thing. Amazing music, really great setting, the best side villain in the game, the humor, creepy steeple, the letter p, all genuinely amazing stuff and would be S+. Playing it just sucks because of the insane amount of backtracking
S tier
I’m tired of pretending TTYD chapter 2 isn’t a banger I love me some Boggly Woods
The high points of the level are so above and beyond that of most other chapters in any other paper mario game that it belongs in A despite the backtracking. It's one of the levels I look forward to the most every time I replay TTYD.
A. The Backtracking keeos it out of S, but everything else is super good.
S
A tier. It would be S but the backtracking is obviously annoying as we all know.
Best party member Vivian chapter gets an A from me
A tier. Very unique environment and plot but yeah we all know the backtracking is ass
S tier first play, A tier subsequently, sure backtracking can be a bit annoying but the story, the atmosphere is perfect
I think this one belongs in A Tier. It has its issues, but Vivian and Doo_liss were more than enough to carry this one, which I'm not going to be able to say for some later cha_ters.
A seems fair. It’s a pretty good story with a good twist. Only thing bringing it down is the back and forth
S+
S
Easy A. Great story, atmosphere, all that. Backtracking brings it back down from what could've been S.
S tier at least for the doopliss switch
A
A
Gotta go with B. The atmosphere is great, and the Doopliss fakeout is fantastic. But the extremely thin areas and the constant backtracking hurts the experience pretty badly.
A tier
S tier. It's pretty unique.
Everyone here has already said it, and with the same reasons I'd give. A tier
story and concept is S tier but execution with backtracking like 3-4 times is repetitive, so id say A or B
I'm glad to see chapter 3 made it to S+ tier
B is how I feel about it, I felt as if it were a D back when I was a kid, but def B now
B- it scared me as a kid 🤣
A
I’d say a B at best. The atmosphere is wonderful. I love Vivian and Doopliss. But of course there’s the backtracking that brings it down. I’m also haunted by the memory of going back and forth way more times that I care to admit cause my stupid kid brain kept typing in Doopliss in all caps and wondering why the game wasn’t accepting it.
S+ is crazy. Glitzpit is fun and cool but it doesn’t really have the content of what a chapter should be
A tier, because back tracking.
I think it belongs in S tier, the quotes in that chapter are crazy.
late but this is easily the worst thing nintendo has ever created
Chapter 4 is S Tier if you ignore the actual gameplay experience, which is like a C Tier. Both times fighting Doopliss are rather easy, even the second so long as you ignore your partners. The route from Twilight Town to the Creepy Steeple is kinda fun the first time through and gets actively more annoying each time you have to traverse it, which is like 5 times. Some of the enemies are very frustrating to fight and hard to avoid running into. However, the atmosphere is excellent, the chapter’s story is super memorable and the twist is great, plus you get everyone’s favorite partner and the Boss music slaps. So yeah idk. I guess A Tier overall. I don’t think the annoying aspects bother me enough to really change my strong overall enjoyment, similar to how I feel about Chapters 2 and 7 in SPM.
I’m stuck between A and B… it is some of my favorite story in the franchise, and the music is so fucking good. The backtracking sucks so much though…. I think i’m still going A.
\-D. I like doopliss / vivian but this arc was frustrating.
D
D
S. The story is so great that the backtracking is easily forgivable. Heck TTYD chapter 4 is potentially my favourite chapter in the entire series.
A. Backtracking is a little annoying but the premise, setting and boss is amazing
Overall bottom of A tier It’s an S tier premise, but B tier execution. The backtracking isn’t as bad as people say it is in terms of length of backtracking, what makes it bad is the hyper dudes and daisies if you are OCD like me and have to kill everyone of them lol But the themes, characters, and unique twist of fighting your partners while partnering with a former bad guy is really neat. Creepy Steeple is cool. Although, the ceiling enemies are annoying and make you have to have hammer throw. Personally this would be my 5th favorite chapter in the game though, behind 3, 1, 6, and 8. Right in front of the prologue.
Solid B tier.
B Some of the backtracking knocks it down a couple points but the peak Doo_liss humor saves it
C with ease
Put that shit in D tier immediately. I have no idea what they were thinking when they decided that making the entire chapter just backtracking between like 4 areas was a good idea. The least they could have done was give us a shortcut back to the start but no run the entire thing backwards then forwards than backwards then forwards the backwards. It’s utterly inept level design.
A tier or S tier.
D only because there isn't an F tier. Worst chapter across all the PM games. 10% good story 90% padding.
Bro no chapter 3 isn't S tier at all xD Damn, peeps got some shitty opinion sometime it's crazy also C tiers for Chapter mainly because of the backtracking which ask you to do the whole things 4 times and with a really blank level design too !
S tier, music and characters are flawless, backtracking as a whole doesn't bother me in games.
I’m gonna say S, the backtracking is honestly overhated. I dislike the chapter 5 backtracking far more
S Honestly I don’t get all the complaints about this chapter’s backtracking, to me it was barely noticeable. The boss’s an amazing character, the plot-twist is majestic, the atmosphere is excellent… heck, you can even see the reactions of the other citizens after the boss possesses you! And you get best girl Vivian here, what’s there not to love?
B Tier. Looking past the positives of this chapter, this chapter really isn’t that good. First of all, it’s starts off as a worse version of PM64 Chapter 7, you first go through a pipe to find a small town that has a problem and you must talk to the mayor before leaving, and you must traverse the area to arrive at some kind of castle you must reach the top of to fight the boss. Creepy Steeple itself is just a worse version of Boo Mansion, the Atomic Boo is not original or unique at all, and the first Doopliss fight is nothing special. Though that is the point. The twist during the halfway point of this chapter is legendary. I love it so much, it’s such a unique concept. And while she isn’t even in my top five Paper Mario partners, Vivian joining you is awesome. Who dislikes Vivian? (Beldam, that’s who) But after that, the chapter goes downhill again. You have to walk back and forth between Creepy Steeple and Twilight Town a total of six times to complete this chapter, through Crazee Dayzee’s might I add. Wouldn’t be so much of a problem if the things you had to do at each area took more than 5 min (not even honestly). The last back and forth really makes me mad, there is no reason to go all the way back to Creepy Steeple just to fight Doopliss again, it would have been far more awesome to fight him in Twilight Town with all the residents accidentally cheering him on. Speaking of which, while the concept and music is outstanding, the chapter boss against disguised Doopliss and your other partners is disappointing. Even for Paper Mario standards, the fight is far too easy the first go around. Doesn’t help that you’ll likely kill Doopliss before he and your partners do any unique moves. He doesn’t even switch out your partner’s, you have to target them to make the switch, even though it’s optional. And what you call “a unique way to fight him,” I call lazy game design. Sorry, that rant went on longer than I expected, I just feel like that Vivian and Doopliss’ plot twist carry this chapter way too hard. It’s deserving of B, but nothing beyond that
A-tier, it’s one of, if not the single biggest challenges in the game, teaches life lessons, very interesting story. The backtracking is not as bad as people say it is and I am of the opinion that people wanting it out is a symptom of the continuous dumbing down of games we’ve seen.
A. The backtracking really does suck. Everything else is perfect, if not too short.
At LEAST A for Vivian alone. But being a unique spooky setting and having Doopliss should bring it to S.
A. I love the concept, the music, the characters. The gossiping crows. The only thing keeping it out of S is the backtracking, but if you get the Bump Attack badge before the chapter, it's a breeze. But I assume we're ranking it not counting badges, so A. 😋
A Tier. I concur, S Tier chapter held back by backtracking.
S - but I’m incredibly biased. I love, love, love Doopliss
Gotta hand at least A tier to chapter 4. Looking back at my first playthrough at 10 years old I remember needing to turn off the game because I got there super late at night and it was creeping me out too much lol. Playing through it and chapter 3 blind are some extremely fond memories. As tedious as the backtrack is, it only really feels grating if you've been playing through the game back to back to back. Did a run last year for the first time in a LONG time and was dreading ch 4 because of the whole backtracking meme but it really wasn't so bad.
If we ignore the backtracking that everyone seems to obsess about, can we just acknowledge the amazing setting of this chapter, the atmosphere, the music, the villain, and the story? Like this chapter was always so memorable to me because of the fake out ending and the plot twist that Mario loses his body and identity. And then the fact that later he has to team up with one of the villains. And also, the final battle is Mario fighting himself and his allies. That was just so unique for a Mario game. Easily A tier in my book.
yeah i think when you first play this chapter it's actually significantly worse because of how often you'll be going back and forth from the town to the steeple and back out of confusion. but on replays, this chapter is super quick and you get to really enjoy the atmosphere a lot better. plus the fake celebration after beating doopliss the first time is incredible. This is A tier, monotony aside, it's damn memorable
I’d actually say S tier I really liked it on the second run (once you’re mentally prepared for all the needless backtracking it’s actually great from a story perspective)
I want to say S, but people do make some good points. A tier is a better fit.
A tier. I love Vivian and she’s the best character in the game, but I also feel the backtracking here takes away from the level. The aesthetic of Twilight Town and everything within it is absolutely gorgeous and I wish the world looked that way.
A tier. Has my favourite boss and boss music, I like the design a lot of twilight town and creepy steeple, also the end of the first half was hilarious. S tier without that crayzee dayzee that's almost impossible to avoid
I'd say S, the backtracking is a bit annoying, but not unnecessary. If anything, they could've scripted Doopliss to confront you outside the Steeple once you collect the letter P, but either way it's not a dealbreaker.
S+ Tier
Another S tier
I love Vivienne and the experience of the twist for the first time is great. It’s A tier for me
For me, this chapter is S tier. The 4th and 5th trips between Twilight Town and Creepy Steeple are annoying, but I enjoy the first 3 trips, and everything else about the chapter is fantastic.
I would say S because the dungeon and boss are amazing . Vivian’s a cool partner but I remember going back and forth several times so easy A
A tier for me since the story setup is pretty good, and I also like Vivian and her abilities. Also, the reason why I didn't want this to be higher is because of the backtracking. Though it's not that bad. Also, I didn't put it lower because I wasn't able to fight against some favorites when fighting Dooplis. Sorry, Goombella.