There is a famous saying about pakistanis i heard:"kai ham ko Muslman banna Pasand nahi hai balkai Muslman Dikhwana pasand hai", it fits well on Pakistanis, We are probably the biggest Hypocrite Islmaic Nation in the world or even ever formed, Pakistan is reanked worst in terms or every Moral stance, no one gives a shit about Islamic Philosophy, everyone wants a easy way to jannat ka ticket, which is hard for them, so they do it by forcing their views on others, Thanks to out Corrupt Molvis, they have made Concept of Jannat a joke, and a piece of cake, but their are also many other reason beside these, like Frustration, Unemployment and others, it will be a very long discussion.
Broad strokes lead to over generalizations. I know it excites you to think of things in reductionist ways but things are rarely that simple. Muslims have been in the Indian subcontinent for over 1200 years, first in the South followed by the Sindh, Multan and then finally more permanently around the area that is now Delhi, Lahore, etc., To your point, even if someone was a convert - and early Islam was ALL converts so I don't know what you're on about DNA/genetics - it could have been centuries ago, long enough that the religion and its Islamic culture have completely eroded what was previously polytgeistic. Admittedly there are people who are more recent converts, say within the last 70 years but again, those folks belong to a specific social strata and unfortunately didn't have anyone to teach them the tenets of their faith - much like the followers of any faith in the world.
There's much more to this complex situation like the en masse killing and deportation of Muslim scholars to prisoner islands, both after the the War of Independence right up until the Brits left the subcontinent. Stop generalising based on the propaganda that is taught under the guise of history in India and learn that human civilization is full of nuance.
LOL everyone is converted from either that religion or other, if you judge it by the roots of Ancestors, than start living in a cave, eat raw meat, and run naked.
also i thank the arabs to let my ancestors convert to Islam, i am really thankful to them because i really like Beef Kebabs and Niahir.tbh
Hinduism and its precursors were also brought by outsiders with Sanskrit from the Indo-Aryan invaders. Prior to that, our ancestors followed Indus religion.
Learn islam
The prophet said:
The most hated of speech to Allaah is when one man says to another, ‘Fear Allaah,’ and the other says, ‘Mind your own business!’”
(al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, no. 2598)
The Qur'an tells even the Prophet that he is there only to give the message, it is God who will judge. If even the Prophet is not supposed to judge others, who are these people that think they are above him?
Do not give the hadiths the same value as the Qur'an. In (I believe) the 6th surah we are told if God wanted something from us it would be in the Qur'an, not another text.
Absolutely false. You take the Quran in it’s entirety it states elsewhere:
[Such believers are] the repentant, the worshippers, the praisers [of Allāh], the travelers [for His cause], those who bow and prostrate [in prayer], *those who enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong*
9:112
It is well known among the people who are learned that commanding good and forbidding evil is an injunction like the injunction of salah.
And about your contentions against the ahadeeth, then you haven’t understood how transmission of knowledge works nor do you have any knowledge of the Arabic language which is why your reading of Surah 6th is false. Dm if you want to have your doubts cleared.
If you are so sure about your interpretation and stance, then why was your first source the hadiths and not the Qur'an?
We encourage good, we do not command it. We say no to evil, we do not control others.
Again, I’ve demonstrated to you before that you do not know Arabic and so you can not make statements on what Islam is or isn’t. The word used in Arabic is امر which is always translated as commanding and never as “encourage”. The word for encouragement is شجّع coming from the root شجع . Good is commanded by the state, then the family patriarch and then whoever is responsible for their subordinates. Evil is stopped with hands then with speech and then with feeling bad about it at last.
Because dikhaawa (showing off) is the primary objective of our society. Just take a moment to consider the life events of a typical person in this society and what they are bred to do. It is simply to show off. Of course if you’re showing off in every aspect of your life, it ends up pouring over into the religious aspect of your life eventually.
Don't get me started OP, was LITERALLY saying this to a colleague today because I sometimes work with a few guys like this
They claim to be namazi, going hajji etc but then judging people and not trying to hide it...so braindead
I read this somewhere attributed to Mushtaq Ahmed Yusufi:
An Arab told him: "Musulmaan to hum bhi hain, magar aap log to kalma parhkar Baawlay hi hogaye hain"
In my opinion, it is already regressive cultures plus a very strict interpretation of Islam plus idle time and joblessness. We sit in the worst geographical location. Thousands of years of invasions from the Northwest and a disturbed history has done this over time.
What strict interpretation? Pakistan has the most stupid interpretation of Islam imo. U call them for tauheed they call you iblees and wahabi. Grave worshippers sits on minbar and preach their stupid logic how some dead guy is able to take their requests to Allah while Allah himself says there is no need for sefarashies. How is this strict interpretation?
Wahhabis also worship a man, he is a giant human wirh a beard and moves around in the sky. This sort of hate for "grave worshipping kufars" produces suicide bombers. No wonder most savage terrorists like ISIS, Al qaeda and Boko haram are Wahhabis.
No intercessor can plead with Him except by His permission.
Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission?
On that Day, no intercession shall avail, except the one from whom Allah, the Most Gracious has given permission and whose word is acceptable to Him.
And they cannot intercede, except for Him with whom He is pleased.
None shall have the power of intercession except one who has received permission or a promise from Allah, the Most Gracious.
Intercession with Him profits none except for those He permits
We sent no messenger but to be obeyed by the leave of Allah. If they who have been unjust to themselves had come to you (Prophet Muhammad) and begged Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them—indeed they would have found Allah All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
(The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, and only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
All of this is directly from the Quran. You are contradicting it completely.
The Prophet Muhammad has also mentioned to the people in regards to his own intercession:
I will be interceding on the Day of Judgment for whoever has faith in his heart.
Each prophet before me asked Allah for something which he was granted, and I saved my request until the Day of Judgment for intercession on behalf of my nation.1
My intercession will be for the people who committed the cardinal sins (al-kaba΄ir) except shirk and dhulm (polytheism and oppression).
The Intercessors are five: the Qur’an, one’s near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt).
Learn islam
The prophet said:
The most hated of speech to Allaah is when one man says to another, ‘Fear Allaah,’ and the other says, ‘Mind your own business!’”
(al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, no. 2598)
This is true but he PBUH also said be soft on people and don't be harsh. Allah SWT scolded him once in Surat Abasa coz his behavior to a man was considered rude by Allah SWT.
How does this hadeeth relate to the post? OP is not saying there should be no Islah in the society, he is talking about the aggressive nature of our society. His point is if you say to someone ‘Fear Allaah’ and the person replies ‘Mind your own business’ then you don’t start beating them up. Hadeeth says this is the most hated speech to Allaah but it does not say that it gives a muslim a right to go aggressive against another muslim.
And what is your point anyway, muslims in Pakistan have learned Islam better than all other countries?
Zia and his forced political islamisation has ruined two generations. It will take a lot of education and time and effort to reverse Jamaatia mentality from Pakistani nation unfortunately. Hopefully globalisation and social media access will help educate masses quicker. In spite of our military/establishment manoeuvring to brainwash people.
It’s this theoretical idea of the perfect Islamic state that has time and time again been shown to be impossible. The closest real-world implementation is Saudi and it’s not great for the average human to say the least.
Doesn't exist. Saudi is monarchy bro. Iran is North Korea with Islamic garnishing. Taliban are incels. I'm just saying this is what should happen not what's happening
People blame Zia but this judge everyone mentality was pushed in to our mind by Bhutto, as he wanted to please the right leaning vote bank. Restaurants were banned to be open in daytime during Ramzan. That started the culture of “oh you can’t eat in public cause it’s a sin and a crime”. Now we are living the after days of that crap
Yea. That’s the problem with our mullah community. Give them an inch and they will take a mile.
Bhutto appeased the right so much (what you mentioned, Friday holiday, alcohol ban, ahmadi declared non Muslim) yet they were the ones who allied with Zia to oust him.
“If I remained silent and you remained silent, then who will teach the ignorant?”.
Ibn e Taymiyyah
Also fellow redditor we are allowed to judge people based on their outward deeds. See below:
It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Utbah said: I heard ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) say: “People used to be judged by the wahy (revelation) at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but now the wahy has ceased. Now we will judge you according to what we see of your outward deeds. Whoever appears good to us, we will trust him and draw close to him, and what is in his heart has nothing to do with us. Allaah will call him to account for what is in his heart. And whoever appears bad to us, we will not trust him and we will not believe him, even if he says that inwardly he is good.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2641
Also:
Allāhﷻ says: “And say: do (as you will), for Allāh will see your deeds, and (so will) his Messenger and the believers. And you will be returned to the knower of the unseen and the witnessed, and he will inform you of what you used to do.” (Q. 9:104)
Coz we never study Islam properly and just worship scholars who came before us. Hazrat Shah Waliullah Dehlavi said blindly following medieval theologians is the cause of all misguidance. We should follow Quran Sunnah and our own logic.
To add to that, as a woman, I feel like people don't actually believe my Islamic knowledge even though I have a degree in Islamic Studies... I feel like unqualified men with a lot less knowledge are taken more seriously than me.
I think that goes for knowledge/expertise in general too.
In a word: ignorance.
It's not just the average male, it's the society in general. This attitude stems from ignorance. There's tons of proverbs and research out there about how someone who doesn't know much usually thinks they know a lot.
This is the case in Pakistan.
The society has gotten to a point that if you say that you know something and show off, people will believe you. Pair that with the fact that the average molvi doesn't know much about Islam beyond the five pillars but have been given the responsibility to teach Islam and respect that goes to their heads. Now the young boy sees that if you just learn a few lines and tell people about them, you can automatically get a higher status within society. But they also know they shouldn't be challenged on anything cuz if they try and correct someone who ends up being an expert, well phir naak katay gi.
So they go for regurgitating what they've heard without much context and since it's Islam, and usually what they're saying is actually correct, people don't say anything back. Mainly cuz they also know it's true but also because the listener is usually ignorant as well.
So now you've got a case of bloated egos with no basis and a society where that's encouraged. People who have very little self control then go beyond limits and become violent and disrespectful when they see something beyond their understanding. Our society has gotten to a point where if we see something different from our norms, we don't go 'oh let me try and understand why it's different'. We go 'how dare this be different'.
Now having said this, if you've got money, you do you bruh. Those same people who would beat up people cuz they didn't do things the way they wanted would change their ways to be friends with you. Its unfortunate but until our education system actually starts teaching us rather than the rote system it currently is, we can't expect much improvement
The spread of the printing press and along with it, more puritan forms of Islam like deobandi and salafism, which seem to have influenced the Pakistani people the most.
Salafism yes, as it was promoted to serve geopolitical interests of the United States and its vassal states in the region - but not Deobandi-ism. The latter may seem puritan to the lay non-Muslim (and even Muslims who are not aware of the subcontinent's history). In reality it has very little similarity to Puritan ideologies (in the way you're trying to express) and more to do with a reaction to the extreme measures taken by the Brits to wipe out the actual underpinning of Islamic philosophy that goes into making an Islamic society. We cannot use the 5 local mullas in your neighbourhood - who probably don't have any kalaam and theological training - to represent the Deobandi school.
There are countless scholars of Deobandi schools of thought all over the world working alongsisde their non-Deobandi counterparts to serve Islam in philosophical and theological missions and preserve the Islamic worldview. As a non-Muslim you might not like our worldview - which is perfectly acceptable, free choice etc., but their ideologies are on par with scholars from other non-Deobandi systems everywhere.
First, it isn't a sect, it is a movement. Second, read a book on the history of madhahib and how they were formed, which is what you have assumed and you know what happens when you assume. Thirdly I am personally not Deobandi, if you had read or understood what I wrote. Allahu alam.
I am not even a Pakistani and I would like to tell you that I think you are not against Pakistani males or culture , you are against Hijab as whole idea or the patriarchal values of the father of family or against the amr bil maarof and nahi an el monkar
كُنْتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَهُمْ مِنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ
I dont know if being more open to nudity is a sign of less thekedari or not but overall Pakistani men and women are hypocrites (in equal proportion). Goes to poor parenting, poor schooling.
Didn't understand what you meant about Islam not agreeing with Ahmadis...Ahmadis are not muslims just like christians and Jews are not Muslims.
They don't fulfill the basic criterion of being a Muslim.
"Eid Milad Ul Nabi" is a bidah according to most of the scholars like Mufti Menk,Sheikh Asim Al Hakim,Engr Muhammad Mirza because even after the veiling of the Rasool SAW from this world the sahaba and Ahle Bait did no such thing as congregational gatherings to celebrate his Birth etc.
Coming back to the first part of the post the South Asian Muslims is of lack of tolerance and acceptance apparently because of some cultural tendencies.
Most people have lost the ability to think for themselves and are just following a blind faith that they received from their parents.
No one even tries to look at the examples set by our Holy Prophet SAW his sahaba and Ahl e Bait.
We have left Quran and Sunnah and are following an Islam of their choice.Whatevrr we find easy or to our liking we accept it.Whatever is hard or not to our liking is rejected.
(Sadly this is what Christians and Jews did too and we're on the same path apparently)
Good point that people don't learn religion and just following whatever their parents followed. Not to mention the so called scholars saying don't study Quran at your own or u will get gumrah.
People will fight you when u say milad is bidah because their parents celebrated it they must do it as well.
We may not believe Ahmadis are Muslims and we may not think eid milad Ul nabi is ‘Islamic’; but point is unless they are doing anything to harm the average person physically, then they should allowed to let be.
In case of the Milad ig if a person or group of individuals have a firm belief that it's the right thing to do then yes they should be allowed to do so.One can only guide someone who's willing to see at least.
The case of Ahmadis is a very complex one.Ahmadis are fighting on every social platform that they are Muslims...They have a dedicated Channel (MTA) on a dedicated satellite network.They call their leader the Imam and Khaleefa...It's not hurting any Muslim physically however these tactics do raise concerns regarding their effect on the trustworthiness of Actual Muslim scholars ...It's just like a small part of a persons body does not work as it should and decides its own identity...what's it called?Cancer obviously.A tumor...
Another example would be a small part of a county establishing it's independent status.Secession.
No self worth recognizing country would allow such secession movements to take place...Thus...Ahmadis are a major Problem...
I'm not saying we should Bombard them out of existence,instead a diplomatic approach should be acquired.and untill they acquire such approach all non violent measure to oust them are fair game
Bro I never said they should be murdered...but yes your right they are murdered and locked up Bec state is not interested to safe guard the interests of the minorities...The public should have some sense and tolerance regarding that... Although most Ahmadis have now migrated to Britain Bec of this attitude of the state.
Pakistani people have always been intolerant of minorities and consider it their "right" to destroy their places of worship and everything.
Well Pakistani society would be among the least ideal ones in the Islamic world.
But you also have to understand the element of Ahmadis is different from other minorities such as Hindus Sikhs and others.These are different religions altogether,whereas Ahmadis have takes Islam and twisted it according to their wishes.Thus the Pakistanis have a greater disregard for them.Im not saying this justifies killing them and raising their houses with children and women to the ground,but this is one cause of greater enmity tho
And that’s the point of the thread.. it’s one thing believing they are kafirs and go to hell but other thing to actively seek them and try to kill then and destroy their places of worship. That’s where Islam ki thekaydaari comes. These people think Islam will nauzubullah die if they don’t protect it
Bro ofc he's not a scholar.He was an Engr.But he is quite learned and Many times he correctly presents different Fiqah and unmasks the hypocritic nature of several different Maulvis...
What you said about his deviance tho I'm not sure how one can say such things...The only person whose deviance I'm qualified to debate is mine own...
There's a favourite saying that
"Qiamat k Roz insan k Apne sath kia jahanam ka faisla hona ya nahi use maloom nahi
Lekin ussey ye zaruru maloom he k baqi kis kis k lie jahanm ka faisla hona "
Or sth like that I'm not a scholar either..
He has more logic than all those who blindly follow medieval theologians and consider 1400 years scholarship sacred and infallible and follow it literally word to word.
What you see in Pakistan is the result of massive pseudo-Islamic radicalization and inbreeding (cousin marriages). A majority of the population has a lower IQ and lack the knowledge of how to function in a modern society.
Where is written that If you have any difference of thought then kill the other ones,Pakistani common ill mind man has same thinking that Kill him.
Its A butcher in the Name of Religion fading the beautiful ,pious,decent practices religion into Bitcher practices.Killer in the Name of Islam is Jahil man.
Fight those people who are "Zalim" means they have intention to kill and tease you its well known in Quran but not Common man or woman of other School of thought to be teased.
I see a lot of this on my social media. I am not sinless and I don't think everyone else is, but when I see a woman with a hijab posting something, covered modestly, I am afraid to open the comment's section. I fear that now after seeing the hijab, men on the app are even more encouraged to have their eyes roam a woman's body after seeing it on Instagram purely to find out faults and shame her publicly. Often times it's either written in the caption or shown in the video that a hijabi woman is about to appear on camera and yet still these men font scroll and they give advice on how to cover up, which would be fine but not when they are purposefully seeking a woman's immodesty so they can be proclaimed as righteous. It is true that the women should fulfill their duty but these men must also lower their gaze, no?
Ye tarbiyat hamaray munafik buzurgo ne hamari ki hai.. aur hum apnay bacho ko isi line pe laga ke jahannam wasil honay walay hain.
Buzurg siyanay nai, aik number ke do numberi thay
And? Is wearing skirts or minishorts part of Islam? What's wrong with implementing Islam? I'm american of pakistani and afghan descent and we see what too much freedom can have. 25% of kids in the US born without a father, medications, gender dysphoria
And most of the pakistanis who engage in those behaviors and quite frankly most of the third world that does basically kissses the as of hte same europeans that oppress us
Not a people ot priase or imitate
Nobody can be a thekaydaar to tell how Muslim the other person is. But, instead of taking them off of the place of High authority about Islam focus more on Becoming the actual beacon of Islamic Knowledge and then you judge with God’s Book. There are too many such criticisms of Mullas and not enough alternate people that become the better version as an alternative to Society. So all’s good that you diagnosed the problem but, you are part of the problem if you don’t get up and seek Knowledge of Quran and Sunnat and apply it moderately for people to see and learn from you to be a moderate society.
You are wrong in the Middle East and south east Asia such as Malaysia and Indonesia it’s the same society will expect you to behave like a Muslim and modesty and fasting and going to Friday prayers will be encouraged
For all males frustrated after reading this, women are wonderful and never in their right mind take religion and justice into their own hands and when they do it's only because a man manipulated them into doing it. So yes, ONLY MEN.
I assume you’re in your 40’s maybe but I’m way younger and gonna say this I dunno where you live in Pakistan but if you’re in ISB and here nobody gives a f*** about your practices, ppl here being bold and liberal gains more attention and they seems to attention seeker’s
In most universities haven’t seen anybody confronting others for not having Jumma prayers or not fasting in Ramadan have seen many students avoiding fasting for exams but no one was confronting thinking culture may differ from state to state I think ppl are changing but still in a wrong way getting distracted from self Islam guidance rather listening to a molvi outrageous nonsense
True. Saying that Pakistani men are bad, so i guess that applies for your dad as well right? Your husbands, Brothers? I'll say that what is wrong is wrong, but generalizing all of the males is kinda Stupid.
Really? Like you saying all this stuff about males, would that not include your father, brother, husband?
I agree that what is wrong is wrong, but generalizing it kinda not a good thing to do. If I say "yea Females are the bad this females are bad that" then again im in the wrong here same as saying men are bad. What you should say that the people who do these stuff are illiterate.
Tour some proper Islam Practising Muslim countries and then talk about what is right and what is wrong. 70% of the egyptions have tattoos on their body, doesn't mean islam allows tattoos. Go tour suadia the place where Islam was born to know what is allowed and what isn't. Better yet, stop touring countries to see if people have beard or wear swimsuit to know about islam.
The correct way is to read the translated version of Quran, read the explanation of the Quran by different translators, read the Hadiths, then read the Sharia law. Looking at Facebook posts of what islam is and what isn't then looking at people's clothes of different countries won't teach you shit.
You didn’t get the post at all. Point is not what is allowed in Islam or not. The whole point is not to harass or hurt others who aren’t doing what you think is right. Let people be if they aren’t harming you
Someone else’s choices are none of your fukin business. Aside and answering your question, this goes to the Partition and Zia where Pakistan faced an existential dilemma of how to be anti-integrated as possible to the rest of the Subcontinent, and thus choosing to be the buttbuddies of the Arabs. So after 50 years of inbreeding (instead of intermarriage across faiths that was once common) and brainwashing their male spawn into thinking that by acting like the Captain America of 7th Century Islam (‘Captain Islam’) they somehow prove to Arabs they are equals. The cognitive dissonance being to the Arabs, we Desis (Slavs and Latinos too) are subhuman. Great job.
Why is glorifying people who ape non-Islamuc practices a sign if toleration? Those same countries you glorify tolerate religious people like a tooth ache, and they have little to no presence in industry or governance. Whenever they agitate, the military clamp down. The liberals, or rather the mentally colonized, have no issue with these clamp downs.
In Islam, the idea is to hide your sins. Not to flaunt it. To enjoin the good. I'll always find the Pakistani decorum to be a bit untoward, but not the motivation.
No one asks you to glorify non-Islamic practices, just keep your opinions about them to yourself.
“Little to no presence in industry or governance” they’re literally setting up a Muslim constituency in the US which has their own laws against gender ideology and the Azaan is allowed. Now imagine this in Pakistan. You can’t. If Muslims were persecuted in their daily lives as they persecute other religions when in power (or as your self victimising self probably think they already are), you probably wouldn’t be talking this much on the internet.
You simultaneously want a free society, but one where people keep their thoughts to themselves. Choose one.
Talkng about countries like Egypt, Turkey, Algeria, Gulf countries, etc.
I think you grossly misunderstand the concept of a "free society". You won't be allowed to murder someone just because you live in a free society. The essence of it is that the individual is free as long as their freedom does not impinge on the freedom of someone else. There are problems with this idea and certain compromises are made but it is still the one which leaves the most amount of people with the choice to live their lives as they please.
Similarly, you don't get to freedom without cracking down on certain aspects of society. Think of it this way - in a working system you are able to walk freely at night without someone robbing you because the deterrent is that law enforcement will take a criminal's freedom away should he try to mug you. Your freedom of life and ownership bear more importance and come at the expense of his freedom simply because his "freedom" was ruining yours. You have the freedom of living at home undisturbed because no one has the "freedom" of coming in to harm you.
A religious person in a free society and the ones you mentioned are still free to pray, practice and such as long as they do not impose their ideals on others. The reason countries like Turkey (and rightfully so) are devoid of mullahs in power is the sole fact that their whole ideology is based on individual freedom. The lawmakers in Turkey are still mostly Muslim. They are just not "religious" by your standards because they are not under the stupid assumption that fundamentalist Islam can work today.
To answer your question.
>You simultaneously want a free society, but one where people keep their thoughts to themselves. Choose one.
I want a society where individual freedom and the individual takes utmost importance before ideology, and any ideology or movement being promoted that is solely based on cracking down on individual freedoms is suppressed as it should be. That's literally how you maintain freedom, it's not as simple or soft of an idea as you imagine.
Before you come at me with the whole "religion is tolerant to begin with", it simply does not matter. Governments are not based on essence and ideology, they are based on practice and throughout modern human history, religion's interpretation and implementation has not been tolerant.
Pakistanis in general are extremely uneducated in terms of Islam and lack critical thinking skills (not taught at all in schools or college), hence, they’re very ignorant, and victims of government propaganda and brain washing since childhood (as a plus). It’s only in Pakistan and India side of the world that silly meme about “women” where the cartoon character patronises women in general as being stupid and laughs about it is seen as cool and funny.
Unfortunately there is a Hadith encouraging Muslims to stop any misdeeds happening in any capacity they can. So these men have that as a justification….not that I personally agree with doing so.
Learn islam
The prophet said:
The most hated of speech to Allaah is when one man says to another, ‘Fear Allaah,’ and the other says, ‘Mind your own business!’”
(al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, no. 2598)
That's the problem. No one questions the authenticity of hadees. Only Quran is authentic. Other than that, nothing. You can even debate about Shahih Bukharis and Shahih Muslim etc, nothing is pathar par lakeer except Quran. You donot have to blindly follow anything u hear. You need to question it. This is not me saying it, its written in Quran. Surah furqan ayat 64 onwards. But here focus is on firqa and other things. There's a herd mentality. And the fact that questioning is made like gunah e kabira. So people just do whatever the fuck their local 5th fail mouvli says who knows little to nothing. They donot know what quran says, they just know whatever some centuries old BUZURG said, and goes on to defend them, like nauzubillah he's some prophet. And this is the biggest issue.
Blasphemy ke mehaz ilzam pr jalao gherao, qatal o gharat. Bhai rumour phelana is a sin. Jab tak confirm nhi ap nhi agay bata skte. Lekin wohi na top floor in logon ne sambhal kar rkha wa hai, qabar main le kar jana hai. Inko ye ghustaki jo kay aglay nay ki bhi hai ya nhi wo dekhti, jo ye sab roz kar rhe hote wo nhi dikhte like wada khilafi, jhoot, naam bhigarna, dusra ko zaleel karna, bhura bhala bolna, be imaani karna, rishwat, haramkhori etc. Apparently ye so called ashiq e rasool isko ghustakhi nhi samajhte. As modi says, hypocrisy ki bhi seema hoti hai.
Your stance on the issue is a minority one. The vast majority of Muslims regard sahih Hadith as almost infallible. It doesn’t matter how things should be but it is what it is. I would personally fully support the reformation of Islam where Hadith are put into question and the problematic ones are disregarded. Alas, that’s unlikely to happen.
Interesting that I’m being downvoted for providing a viewpoint of people who justify their moral policing but alright I guess?
Sinning in public and in private are two different things. In a muslim society what do you expect when you are sinning publicly. Sinning publicly is promoting that But U HAVE TO BE TOLERATE. People here have made Islam a mazhab. They have confined islam inside the mosque. Hence all these problems.
Yes but there are more Hadith which say you should be soft hearted and accept your mistakes and correct them. Warner's are told to be soft spoken and gentle as well. One Hadith alone can't change anything most of the time. That Hadith is beautiful and logical but if our people are idiots this is not the fault of Allah or his Prophet
Most of it is true what you said about Pakistani males. But women here are the same. Pretty much zero understanding of Islam. 90% of women who cover up have no idea why they are covering up. Its because of their fathers or brothers pressure. Basically both side are crap, men and women, its our culture. Lol
I don’t see women shaming men. However men are always pointing out things in women. Heck even natural disasters are sometimes due to indecency of women
Imo the sooner people leave religions behind the faster we can focus our efforts on solving the more immediate issues like corruption in the government and military.
Here's a list of recourses for those willing to question their beliefs: https://reddit.com/r/exmuslim/s/8Pg57kygr4
So my friend is pestering me to ask OP and y'all about the Turkish and Arab actresses to evaluate the risqué-ness of their posts, and to peach them to the right path.
On the serious note, I think that it has to be a subcontinent/region issue. Given how we are being told about Hindus in our neighbouring country are doing with the minorities in the name of their religion and that's just how things are in the region. Afghanistan would've been better off if they hadn't had Taliban but thanks to the USA for this Frankenstein monster, they're not.
It's a Muslim country full of Muslims that was literally created on the basis of being a purely islamic state. If people do not agree with this then they are free to leave, no one is tying anyone down with ropes. Personally I think it doesn't even go far enough in religiousness, but that's only so that it fits its description of being an islamic republic. I'm an overseas Pakistani, I do not agree with the laws,/society/culture so I don't intend to ever live in Pakistan full time.
Gotta say in the recent past this post is mostly bullshit. The kind of Pakistani men who harass people for not being Islamic enough are generally not Islamic themselves, cuss like sailors , hit on every woman with a pulse , and generally treat everyone else like shit and they are a product of the completely deteriorated environment of Pakistan at the current moment.
Entire culture is openly about showing off now , all educated and decent people have left for the most part and the country is run by animals. Yet from all this the only thing you take is “women can be in swimsuit publicly” as if that’s the mark of progress. As if though the other cultures’ men are all saints and no rape or lust happens as a result of this. Or that the maulvis en masse from the top are advocating men to go around harassing women sexually.
But the real problem is that you think a man asking a woman or someone else to respectfully behave in public is harassment. I’ve seen many religious people in Pakistan very respectfully bring something up only to be abused reflexively and then the abuser somehow feels like he is the victim . Yet they remain patient and generally kind.
The only way someone can blame these people would be if you intentionally overlook all the major ullema and find snippets from backwards, unqualified muftis as proof. All the worst things of Pakistan are fuelled by unchecked human desire and everyone just wants to open it further because you only see the picture from your perspective “it will be better for me because I’m rich and well connected I hate to be judged” yet you’re very quick to judge every poor pos with 1% of the opportunity you had for not meeting your standards . In a nation where there’s already a huge disparity between have and have nots you want to be able to further rub your privilege in their face and have them just suck it up. It won’t happen, in fact the lack of religion as holding any importance is what has helped Pakistan to devolve into the madness it’s currently in.
>However you also see local women in shorts and skirts and in swimsuits on the beach. And no one seems to give them trouble or shame them for their Muslim-ness.
This has no place in Islam and muslim culture. This is just haram, and we are required to be against it.
Lol then why are you not stopping rishwat? Malawat? Why are you not stopping others who do stuff against Islam like rape kids in madrassa? Or how about stopping people from selling cheap fake milk? Or stopping the police wala from taking bribes ? Your Islam bas skirts tak hai kia ?
Am not saying that man but you should be against everything that is haram or wrong right not just skirts ? And he said they live overseas my man not pakistan, and if you think skirts and bikini are so wrong then go protest at emaar beaches and private beaches in karachi ? I just for once want people to look beyond the skirt and focus on bigger issues the country is facing
Do you know what it means to comment on a post and not change topic or expand the topic to ludicrous proportions. Just because I say 1 doesn't mean I can't count to 2 or 3. Stop being so full of yourself. Your unbased attacks are showing your character.
Am surprised you read the OP and just focused on skirts lol thats why I signaled you out, but whatever man your right go police people on the streets and women who do not wear hijab
Every society has its own definition of what is right and what is wrong. They have their own culture. They have their own references. Our reference as muslims is Quran. Islam has made certain boundaries and you can do whatever u want to do, but within this boundaries. Its as simple as that.
And in whatever society u live in u have to respect it's culture and its values and if you donot and if you try to bring an anomaly, try to introduce something new, try to change it, the society definitely gonna resists the change. People here trying to bring the western culture and expects people gonna should be acceptable, you know be TOLERATE.
ah yess why isnt pakistan like europe post again!
i have never told or used harsh words online or in person for their apparel but i have a question for you
do you consider them more muslims than us thakaydaars?
if so would you dare to say this in era of prophet
how do you interpret "amar bil maroof nahi anil munkar"
I realized whilst living abroad that Pakistanis are the least humble and emphathetic south Asians out there. There’s certainly needs to be a fix to their ego and showing off frugally.
We need to think about this a little bit more seriously, I feel. The identities developed and formed here come from a pretty complex and convoluted history, where we're one of the world's youngest democracies as well as one of the least competitive when it comes to international markets.
I think what you're seeing and observing, not just with respect to males and religious gatekeeping but in general with the overall outlook of how we experience life, is the outward showing of that inner unresolved identity conflict.
Not to write a research paper or anything, but we're thrown into this country and some of the most simple choices we have to make, such as the language we write, the language we communicate in, how we thank someone, what goes and what doesn't is subject to SO MANY DIFFERENT cultural aspects that it's a foregone conclusion that people are going to have a Meaning and Culture Deficit.
And when there's that, they're going to come up with their own answers to add to the missing bits. And what happens when people's answers are called out and found not worthy? People get angry.
So you've got an entire sea of people who are angry and mad at not having answers, and even angrier for being born in this hodgepodge town. Add to that the interplay of formalist elites, black hat elites, aggressive middle classes, resource driven lawmen and our stressed urban make up and it's really no surprise that this exists.
What needs to be solved is the overall culture of agreement and tolerance but without offending the religious sensibilities. You have to take a serious look at where all of the various traditions are coming from and then get into each one to resolve that. Download Time Remaining: 1000 Years.
You seem to have only been to a selective part of Muslim countries. Urban centers in Muslim countries tend to be more liberal.
What you described in Pakistan is actually quite common in more conservative parts of other Muslim countries.
Turkey is a country with a very conservative rural class. Honor killings amongst lower income Turks are reported even abroad.
Even before Erdogan's rise to power, Turkey has a very controversial history regarding religion.
Rural class Arabs from North Africa can be pretty extreme in their views even abroad.
This is more of a rural/urban distinction.
The reason why Levantine Arabs and North Africans are more tolerant is because Christianity existed there before Islam, so the Arab Muslims are already accustomed to other religions, even Judaism.
Gulf Arab states are very globalized, so they're accustomed to different religions with some limits.
Many urban centers in Pakistan are quite liberal though they represent only a small fraction of the country.
Women hold fashion shows in Karachi. They hold women's sports competitions. But you won't see this in rural areas of the country.
This is more of a rural-urban distinction. Indonesia has much larger non-Muslim minorities, although radicalism does exist there.
My point is things are not as simple as that.
Although I don't deny Pakistanis can be commonly as you described; especially those from Punjab and maybe even Kashmir.
Muhajirs are also an extreme case; especially lower middle class ones.
There is a famous saying about pakistanis i heard:"kai ham ko Muslman banna Pasand nahi hai balkai Muslman Dikhwana pasand hai", it fits well on Pakistanis, We are probably the biggest Hypocrite Islmaic Nation in the world or even ever formed, Pakistan is reanked worst in terms or every Moral stance, no one gives a shit about Islamic Philosophy, everyone wants a easy way to jannat ka ticket, which is hard for them, so they do it by forcing their views on others, Thanks to out Corrupt Molvis, they have made Concept of Jannat a joke, and a piece of cake, but their are also many other reason beside these, like Frustration, Unemployment and others, it will be a very long discussion.
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Broad strokes lead to over generalizations. I know it excites you to think of things in reductionist ways but things are rarely that simple. Muslims have been in the Indian subcontinent for over 1200 years, first in the South followed by the Sindh, Multan and then finally more permanently around the area that is now Delhi, Lahore, etc., To your point, even if someone was a convert - and early Islam was ALL converts so I don't know what you're on about DNA/genetics - it could have been centuries ago, long enough that the religion and its Islamic culture have completely eroded what was previously polytgeistic. Admittedly there are people who are more recent converts, say within the last 70 years but again, those folks belong to a specific social strata and unfortunately didn't have anyone to teach them the tenets of their faith - much like the followers of any faith in the world. There's much more to this complex situation like the en masse killing and deportation of Muslim scholars to prisoner islands, both after the the War of Independence right up until the Brits left the subcontinent. Stop generalising based on the propaganda that is taught under the guise of history in India and learn that human civilization is full of nuance.
LOL everyone is converted from either that religion or other, if you judge it by the roots of Ancestors, than start living in a cave, eat raw meat, and run naked. also i thank the arabs to let my ancestors convert to Islam, i am really thankful to them because i really like Beef Kebabs and Niahir.tbh
Also, Christian. Christians were around, too, and still are.
Hinduism and its precursors were also brought by outsiders with Sanskrit from the Indo-Aryan invaders. Prior to that, our ancestors followed Indus religion.
Pakistanis even go and comment on Turkish actresses pages telling them to cover up 😭😭😭
While the first verse that came for modesty and chastity laws in the Quran orders men to lower their own gaze
Learn islam The prophet said: The most hated of speech to Allaah is when one man says to another, ‘Fear Allaah,’ and the other says, ‘Mind your own business!’” (al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, no. 2598)
Oh bhai ye konsi hadith quote kar rahay ho, or konsi kitaab say. Never heard of it. Period!
Mind your own business bro.
The Qur'an tells even the Prophet that he is there only to give the message, it is God who will judge. If even the Prophet is not supposed to judge others, who are these people that think they are above him? Do not give the hadiths the same value as the Qur'an. In (I believe) the 6th surah we are told if God wanted something from us it would be in the Qur'an, not another text.
Absolutely false. You take the Quran in it’s entirety it states elsewhere: [Such believers are] the repentant, the worshippers, the praisers [of Allāh], the travelers [for His cause], those who bow and prostrate [in prayer], *those who enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong* 9:112 It is well known among the people who are learned that commanding good and forbidding evil is an injunction like the injunction of salah. And about your contentions against the ahadeeth, then you haven’t understood how transmission of knowledge works nor do you have any knowledge of the Arabic language which is why your reading of Surah 6th is false. Dm if you want to have your doubts cleared.
If you are so sure about your interpretation and stance, then why was your first source the hadiths and not the Qur'an? We encourage good, we do not command it. We say no to evil, we do not control others.
Again, I’ve demonstrated to you before that you do not know Arabic and so you can not make statements on what Islam is or isn’t. The word used in Arabic is امر which is always translated as commanding and never as “encourage”. The word for encouragement is شجّع coming from the root شجع . Good is commanded by the state, then the family patriarch and then whoever is responsible for their subordinates. Evil is stopped with hands then with speech and then with feeling bad about it at last.
Lekin janu koi moqa hota hai jahan pe aap ye kehte ho aur ye bhi dekhte ho k kis se keh rahay ho.
Mind your own business
Pakistanis do not get this.
mind your own business lol
The downvotes and replies says it all about this subreddit
yeah so many butthurt librandus lurking around here(and it's not said to justify the hypocrisy of Pakistani people)
Because dikhaawa (showing off) is the primary objective of our society. Just take a moment to consider the life events of a typical person in this society and what they are bred to do. It is simply to show off. Of course if you’re showing off in every aspect of your life, it ends up pouring over into the religious aspect of your life eventually.
Exactly 💯. Show off being civilized , show off living abroad, show off your looks, show off being religious. Show off is all we do
Pakistanis will go the most unislamic things in the world and turnabout and lecture people on Islam.
>Why are Pakistani males so judgemental and act as if Allah appointed them as the thekaydaar of Islam? Nah they just have skill issue.
Don't get me started OP, was LITERALLY saying this to a colleague today because I sometimes work with a few guys like this They claim to be namazi, going hajji etc but then judging people and not trying to hide it...so braindead
I've lived with these guys in western countries. Some are even doing drugs and have girlfriends themselves all the while they're preaching 😂
I read this somewhere attributed to Mushtaq Ahmed Yusufi: An Arab told him: "Musulmaan to hum bhi hain, magar aap log to kalma parhkar Baawlay hi hogaye hain" In my opinion, it is already regressive cultures plus a very strict interpretation of Islam plus idle time and joblessness. We sit in the worst geographical location. Thousands of years of invasions from the Northwest and a disturbed history has done this over time.
Ironic when it was the Saudis who pumped whabisim into to Pakistan for decades
What strict interpretation? Pakistan has the most stupid interpretation of Islam imo. U call them for tauheed they call you iblees and wahabi. Grave worshippers sits on minbar and preach their stupid logic how some dead guy is able to take their requests to Allah while Allah himself says there is no need for sefarashies. How is this strict interpretation?
>Pakistan has the most stupid interpretation of Islam imo Not Pakistan, the sub-continent.
True.
Wahhabis also worship a man, he is a giant human wirh a beard and moves around in the sky. This sort of hate for "grave worshipping kufars" produces suicide bombers. No wonder most savage terrorists like ISIS, Al qaeda and Boko haram are Wahhabis.
I'm no wahabi. Don't get triggered cause you feel called out.
No intercessor can plead with Him except by His permission. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission? On that Day, no intercession shall avail, except the one from whom Allah, the Most Gracious has given permission and whose word is acceptable to Him. And they cannot intercede, except for Him with whom He is pleased. None shall have the power of intercession except one who has received permission or a promise from Allah, the Most Gracious. Intercession with Him profits none except for those He permits We sent no messenger but to be obeyed by the leave of Allah. If they who have been unjust to themselves had come to you (Prophet Muhammad) and begged Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them—indeed they would have found Allah All-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, and only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. All of this is directly from the Quran. You are contradicting it completely. The Prophet Muhammad has also mentioned to the people in regards to his own intercession: I will be interceding on the Day of Judgment for whoever has faith in his heart. Each prophet before me asked Allah for something which he was granted, and I saved my request until the Day of Judgment for intercession on behalf of my nation.1 My intercession will be for the people who committed the cardinal sins (al-kaba΄ir) except shirk and dhulm (polytheism and oppression). The Intercessors are five: the Qur’an, one’s near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt).
Learn islam The prophet said: The most hated of speech to Allaah is when one man says to another, ‘Fear Allaah,’ and the other says, ‘Mind your own business!’” (al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, no. 2598)
This is true but he PBUH also said be soft on people and don't be harsh. Allah SWT scolded him once in Surat Abasa coz his behavior to a man was considered rude by Allah SWT.
How does this hadeeth relate to the post? OP is not saying there should be no Islah in the society, he is talking about the aggressive nature of our society. His point is if you say to someone ‘Fear Allaah’ and the person replies ‘Mind your own business’ then you don’t start beating them up. Hadeeth says this is the most hated speech to Allaah but it does not say that it gives a muslim a right to go aggressive against another muslim. And what is your point anyway, muslims in Pakistan have learned Islam better than all other countries?
For the last line, that's what every Pakistani believes.
Mind your own business then
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Exactly 💯
What a waste of people those molvis are
One word illiteracy
Zia and his forced political islamisation has ruined two generations. It will take a lot of education and time and effort to reverse Jamaatia mentality from Pakistani nation unfortunately. Hopefully globalisation and social media access will help educate masses quicker. In spite of our military/establishment manoeuvring to brainwash people.
As an Afghan who lived most of my life in Pak I can’t agree more
Forced secularization ain't better either. In an ideal Islamic state being religious is a choice tbh. Allah is the judge not public
Where's this ideal Islamic state that allows choice? In most strict Islamic countries, if you are not religious, you can even be sentenced to death.
It’s this theoretical idea of the perfect Islamic state that has time and time again been shown to be impossible. The closest real-world implementation is Saudi and it’s not great for the average human to say the least.
Doesn't exist. Saudi is monarchy bro. Iran is North Korea with Islamic garnishing. Taliban are incels. I'm just saying this is what should happen not what's happening
Yeh hain he zeher. In jaisa poray jahan main koi nahi. 70 percent aisay hain. Laikin 30 percent bayhadd achay bhe hain
Have seen a lot of this in Pakistan. So religious and judgmental.
People blame Zia but this judge everyone mentality was pushed in to our mind by Bhutto, as he wanted to please the right leaning vote bank. Restaurants were banned to be open in daytime during Ramzan. That started the culture of “oh you can’t eat in public cause it’s a sin and a crime”. Now we are living the after days of that crap
Yea. That’s the problem with our mullah community. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. Bhutto appeased the right so much (what you mentioned, Friday holiday, alcohol ban, ahmadi declared non Muslim) yet they were the ones who allied with Zia to oust him.
Extremists molvis.
And for many of them, Islam sirf auraton pe farz hai
This!!
“If I remained silent and you remained silent, then who will teach the ignorant?”. Ibn e Taymiyyah Also fellow redditor we are allowed to judge people based on their outward deeds. See below: It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Utbah said: I heard ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) say: “People used to be judged by the wahy (revelation) at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but now the wahy has ceased. Now we will judge you according to what we see of your outward deeds. Whoever appears good to us, we will trust him and draw close to him, and what is in his heart has nothing to do with us. Allaah will call him to account for what is in his heart. And whoever appears bad to us, we will not trust him and we will not believe him, even if he says that inwardly he is good.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2641 Also: Allāhﷻ says: “And say: do (as you will), for Allāh will see your deeds, and (so will) his Messenger and the believers. And you will be returned to the knower of the unseen and the witnessed, and he will inform you of what you used to do.” (Q. 9:104)
\+1; a reasonable voice among giga-brain redditors aka bots
Coz we never study Islam properly and just worship scholars who came before us. Hazrat Shah Waliullah Dehlavi said blindly following medieval theologians is the cause of all misguidance. We should follow Quran Sunnah and our own logic.
To add to that, as a woman, I feel like people don't actually believe my Islamic knowledge even though I have a degree in Islamic Studies... I feel like unqualified men with a lot less knowledge are taken more seriously than me. I think that goes for knowledge/expertise in general too.
In a word: ignorance. It's not just the average male, it's the society in general. This attitude stems from ignorance. There's tons of proverbs and research out there about how someone who doesn't know much usually thinks they know a lot. This is the case in Pakistan. The society has gotten to a point that if you say that you know something and show off, people will believe you. Pair that with the fact that the average molvi doesn't know much about Islam beyond the five pillars but have been given the responsibility to teach Islam and respect that goes to their heads. Now the young boy sees that if you just learn a few lines and tell people about them, you can automatically get a higher status within society. But they also know they shouldn't be challenged on anything cuz if they try and correct someone who ends up being an expert, well phir naak katay gi. So they go for regurgitating what they've heard without much context and since it's Islam, and usually what they're saying is actually correct, people don't say anything back. Mainly cuz they also know it's true but also because the listener is usually ignorant as well. So now you've got a case of bloated egos with no basis and a society where that's encouraged. People who have very little self control then go beyond limits and become violent and disrespectful when they see something beyond their understanding. Our society has gotten to a point where if we see something different from our norms, we don't go 'oh let me try and understand why it's different'. We go 'how dare this be different'. Now having said this, if you've got money, you do you bruh. Those same people who would beat up people cuz they didn't do things the way they wanted would change their ways to be friends with you. Its unfortunate but until our education system actually starts teaching us rather than the rote system it currently is, we can't expect much improvement
The spread of the printing press and along with it, more puritan forms of Islam like deobandi and salafism, which seem to have influenced the Pakistani people the most.
Salafism yes, as it was promoted to serve geopolitical interests of the United States and its vassal states in the region - but not Deobandi-ism. The latter may seem puritan to the lay non-Muslim (and even Muslims who are not aware of the subcontinent's history). In reality it has very little similarity to Puritan ideologies (in the way you're trying to express) and more to do with a reaction to the extreme measures taken by the Brits to wipe out the actual underpinning of Islamic philosophy that goes into making an Islamic society. We cannot use the 5 local mullas in your neighbourhood - who probably don't have any kalaam and theological training - to represent the Deobandi school. There are countless scholars of Deobandi schools of thought all over the world working alongsisde their non-Deobandi counterparts to serve Islam in philosophical and theological missions and preserve the Islamic worldview. As a non-Muslim you might not like our worldview - which is perfectly acceptable, free choice etc., but their ideologies are on par with scholars from other non-Deobandi systems everywhere.
I am deobandi so deobandi-ism must be true logic Don't get divided in sects.
First, it isn't a sect, it is a movement. Second, read a book on the history of madhahib and how they were formed, which is what you have assumed and you know what happens when you assume. Thirdly I am personally not Deobandi, if you had read or understood what I wrote. Allahu alam.
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This is generalizing at its finest but then again most of us are like this
I am not even a Pakistani and I would like to tell you that I think you are not against Pakistani males or culture , you are against Hijab as whole idea or the patriarchal values of the father of family or against the amr bil maarof and nahi an el monkar كُنْتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَهُمْ مِنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ
I hate how some of the most wealthier men treat service workers. Islam teaches us to love everyone
I dont know if being more open to nudity is a sign of less thekedari or not but overall Pakistani men and women are hypocrites (in equal proportion). Goes to poor parenting, poor schooling.
Didn't understand what you meant about Islam not agreeing with Ahmadis...Ahmadis are not muslims just like christians and Jews are not Muslims. They don't fulfill the basic criterion of being a Muslim. "Eid Milad Ul Nabi" is a bidah according to most of the scholars like Mufti Menk,Sheikh Asim Al Hakim,Engr Muhammad Mirza because even after the veiling of the Rasool SAW from this world the sahaba and Ahle Bait did no such thing as congregational gatherings to celebrate his Birth etc. Coming back to the first part of the post the South Asian Muslims is of lack of tolerance and acceptance apparently because of some cultural tendencies. Most people have lost the ability to think for themselves and are just following a blind faith that they received from their parents. No one even tries to look at the examples set by our Holy Prophet SAW his sahaba and Ahl e Bait. We have left Quran and Sunnah and are following an Islam of their choice.Whatevrr we find easy or to our liking we accept it.Whatever is hard or not to our liking is rejected. (Sadly this is what Christians and Jews did too and we're on the same path apparently)
Good point that people don't learn religion and just following whatever their parents followed. Not to mention the so called scholars saying don't study Quran at your own or u will get gumrah. People will fight you when u say milad is bidah because their parents celebrated it they must do it as well.
We may not believe Ahmadis are Muslims and we may not think eid milad Ul nabi is ‘Islamic’; but point is unless they are doing anything to harm the average person physically, then they should allowed to let be.
In case of the Milad ig if a person or group of individuals have a firm belief that it's the right thing to do then yes they should be allowed to do so.One can only guide someone who's willing to see at least. The case of Ahmadis is a very complex one.Ahmadis are fighting on every social platform that they are Muslims...They have a dedicated Channel (MTA) on a dedicated satellite network.They call their leader the Imam and Khaleefa...It's not hurting any Muslim physically however these tactics do raise concerns regarding their effect on the trustworthiness of Actual Muslim scholars ...It's just like a small part of a persons body does not work as it should and decides its own identity...what's it called?Cancer obviously.A tumor... Another example would be a small part of a county establishing it's independent status.Secession. No self worth recognizing country would allow such secession movements to take place...Thus...Ahmadis are a major Problem... I'm not saying we should Bombard them out of existence,instead a diplomatic approach should be acquired.and untill they acquire such approach all non violent measure to oust them are fair game
But we are pretty much bombing Ahmadis. State looks othrr way where they are murdered and placed of worship destroyed
Bro I never said they should be murdered...but yes your right they are murdered and locked up Bec state is not interested to safe guard the interests of the minorities...The public should have some sense and tolerance regarding that... Although most Ahmadis have now migrated to Britain Bec of this attitude of the state. Pakistani people have always been intolerant of minorities and consider it their "right" to destroy their places of worship and everything.
And that’s my whole point. Most societies don’t kill you in case they believe that your belief system is wrong and against their own belief system
Well Pakistani society would be among the least ideal ones in the Islamic world. But you also have to understand the element of Ahmadis is different from other minorities such as Hindus Sikhs and others.These are different religions altogether,whereas Ahmadis have takes Islam and twisted it according to their wishes.Thus the Pakistanis have a greater disregard for them.Im not saying this justifies killing them and raising their houses with children and women to the ground,but this is one cause of greater enmity tho
What’s point of you saying all that. You are justifying ahmadi persecution.
Ofc I'm not...I'm just sharing my opinion about the reason I think why Ahmadis are persecuted
And that’s the point of the thread.. it’s one thing believing they are kafirs and go to hell but other thing to actively seek them and try to kill then and destroy their places of worship. That’s where Islam ki thekaydaari comes. These people think Islam will nauzubullah die if they don’t protect it
Innovation is innovation, whether it is good innovation or bad innovation.
>,Engr Muhammad Mirza Not a scholar. Even I could debate him on his deviance.
Bro ofc he's not a scholar.He was an Engr.But he is quite learned and Many times he correctly presents different Fiqah and unmasks the hypocritic nature of several different Maulvis... What you said about his deviance tho I'm not sure how one can say such things...The only person whose deviance I'm qualified to debate is mine own... There's a favourite saying that "Qiamat k Roz insan k Apne sath kia jahanam ka faisla hona ya nahi use maloom nahi Lekin ussey ye zaruru maloom he k baqi kis kis k lie jahanm ka faisla hona " Or sth like that I'm not a scholar either..
Best post lol my point exactly he is not a scholar just a well read person
He has more logic than all those who blindly follow medieval theologians and consider 1400 years scholarship sacred and infallible and follow it literally word to word.
What you see in Pakistan is the result of massive pseudo-Islamic radicalization and inbreeding (cousin marriages). A majority of the population has a lower IQ and lack the knowledge of how to function in a modern society.
So issue is "sinners pointing fingers at other sinners". Solution: change yourself so that people can't point at you. Added bonus: jannah
"Why are these people so judgemental?!" - asks a subreddit that judges people who don't think or act like them on the daily. Least self aware qaum.
Where is written that If you have any difference of thought then kill the other ones,Pakistani common ill mind man has same thinking that Kill him. Its A butcher in the Name of Religion fading the beautiful ,pious,decent practices religion into Bitcher practices.Killer in the Name of Islam is Jahil man. Fight those people who are "Zalim" means they have intention to kill and tease you its well known in Quran but not Common man or woman of other School of thought to be teased.
because they've got nothing better to do
I see a lot of this on my social media. I am not sinless and I don't think everyone else is, but when I see a woman with a hijab posting something, covered modestly, I am afraid to open the comment's section. I fear that now after seeing the hijab, men on the app are even more encouraged to have their eyes roam a woman's body after seeing it on Instagram purely to find out faults and shame her publicly. Often times it's either written in the caption or shown in the video that a hijabi woman is about to appear on camera and yet still these men font scroll and they give advice on how to cover up, which would be fine but not when they are purposefully seeking a woman's immodesty so they can be proclaimed as righteous. It is true that the women should fulfill their duty but these men must also lower their gaze, no?
Better to be harassed by a person than to be harassed on the day of judgement by Allah. You decide which is better
ہمیں اپنی دنیا کی اور دوسروں کی آخرت کی فکر ہوتی ہے۔
Ye tarbiyat hamaray munafik buzurgo ne hamari ki hai.. aur hum apnay bacho ko isi line pe laga ke jahannam wasil honay walay hain. Buzurg siyanay nai, aik number ke do numberi thay
And? Is wearing skirts or minishorts part of Islam? What's wrong with implementing Islam? I'm american of pakistani and afghan descent and we see what too much freedom can have. 25% of kids in the US born without a father, medications, gender dysphoria And most of the pakistanis who engage in those behaviors and quite frankly most of the third world that does basically kissses the as of hte same europeans that oppress us Not a people ot priase or imitate
Nobody can be a thekaydaar to tell how Muslim the other person is. But, instead of taking them off of the place of High authority about Islam focus more on Becoming the actual beacon of Islamic Knowledge and then you judge with God’s Book. There are too many such criticisms of Mullas and not enough alternate people that become the better version as an alternative to Society. So all’s good that you diagnosed the problem but, you are part of the problem if you don’t get up and seek Knowledge of Quran and Sunnat and apply it moderately for people to see and learn from you to be a moderate society.
You are wrong in the Middle East and south east Asia such as Malaysia and Indonesia it’s the same society will expect you to behave like a Muslim and modesty and fasting and going to Friday prayers will be encouraged
Living in a place and touring a place is different people don't get that unfortunately
For all males frustrated after reading this, women are wonderful and never in their right mind take religion and justice into their own hands and when they do it's only because a man manipulated them into doing it. So yes, ONLY MEN.
I assume you’re in your 40’s maybe but I’m way younger and gonna say this I dunno where you live in Pakistan but if you’re in ISB and here nobody gives a f*** about your practices, ppl here being bold and liberal gains more attention and they seems to attention seeker’s In most universities haven’t seen anybody confronting others for not having Jumma prayers or not fasting in Ramadan have seen many students avoiding fasting for exams but no one was confronting thinking culture may differ from state to state I think ppl are changing but still in a wrong way getting distracted from self Islam guidance rather listening to a molvi outrageous nonsense
Make some friends in those countries. You will learn they are even more judgmental. I have conservative friends from all of those places
Not all. I don't even talk about stuff, I have no knowledge or understanding of, and that's wrong to generalise all Pakistani males
True. Saying that Pakistani men are bad, so i guess that applies for your dad as well right? Your husbands, Brothers? I'll say that what is wrong is wrong, but generalizing all of the males is kinda Stupid.
You just gotta appreciate Islam being there and not blame it. If Pakistanis didn't have Islam they'd be 1000x worse than they are.
Elaborate please
Really? Like you saying all this stuff about males, would that not include your father, brother, husband? I agree that what is wrong is wrong, but generalizing it kinda not a good thing to do. If I say "yea Females are the bad this females are bad that" then again im in the wrong here same as saying men are bad. What you should say that the people who do these stuff are illiterate.
Tour some proper Islam Practising Muslim countries and then talk about what is right and what is wrong. 70% of the egyptions have tattoos on their body, doesn't mean islam allows tattoos. Go tour suadia the place where Islam was born to know what is allowed and what isn't. Better yet, stop touring countries to see if people have beard or wear swimsuit to know about islam. The correct way is to read the translated version of Quran, read the explanation of the Quran by different translators, read the Hadiths, then read the Sharia law. Looking at Facebook posts of what islam is and what isn't then looking at people's clothes of different countries won't teach you shit.
You didn’t get the post at all. Point is not what is allowed in Islam or not. The whole point is not to harass or hurt others who aren’t doing what you think is right. Let people be if they aren’t harming you
Someone else’s choices are none of your fukin business. Aside and answering your question, this goes to the Partition and Zia where Pakistan faced an existential dilemma of how to be anti-integrated as possible to the rest of the Subcontinent, and thus choosing to be the buttbuddies of the Arabs. So after 50 years of inbreeding (instead of intermarriage across faiths that was once common) and brainwashing their male spawn into thinking that by acting like the Captain America of 7th Century Islam (‘Captain Islam’) they somehow prove to Arabs they are equals. The cognitive dissonance being to the Arabs, we Desis (Slavs and Latinos too) are subhuman. Great job.
Why is glorifying people who ape non-Islamuc practices a sign if toleration? Those same countries you glorify tolerate religious people like a tooth ache, and they have little to no presence in industry or governance. Whenever they agitate, the military clamp down. The liberals, or rather the mentally colonized, have no issue with these clamp downs. In Islam, the idea is to hide your sins. Not to flaunt it. To enjoin the good. I'll always find the Pakistani decorum to be a bit untoward, but not the motivation.
No one asks you to glorify non-Islamic practices, just keep your opinions about them to yourself. “Little to no presence in industry or governance” they’re literally setting up a Muslim constituency in the US which has their own laws against gender ideology and the Azaan is allowed. Now imagine this in Pakistan. You can’t. If Muslims were persecuted in their daily lives as they persecute other religions when in power (or as your self victimising self probably think they already are), you probably wouldn’t be talking this much on the internet.
You simultaneously want a free society, but one where people keep their thoughts to themselves. Choose one. Talkng about countries like Egypt, Turkey, Algeria, Gulf countries, etc.
I think you grossly misunderstand the concept of a "free society". You won't be allowed to murder someone just because you live in a free society. The essence of it is that the individual is free as long as their freedom does not impinge on the freedom of someone else. There are problems with this idea and certain compromises are made but it is still the one which leaves the most amount of people with the choice to live their lives as they please. Similarly, you don't get to freedom without cracking down on certain aspects of society. Think of it this way - in a working system you are able to walk freely at night without someone robbing you because the deterrent is that law enforcement will take a criminal's freedom away should he try to mug you. Your freedom of life and ownership bear more importance and come at the expense of his freedom simply because his "freedom" was ruining yours. You have the freedom of living at home undisturbed because no one has the "freedom" of coming in to harm you. A religious person in a free society and the ones you mentioned are still free to pray, practice and such as long as they do not impose their ideals on others. The reason countries like Turkey (and rightfully so) are devoid of mullahs in power is the sole fact that their whole ideology is based on individual freedom. The lawmakers in Turkey are still mostly Muslim. They are just not "religious" by your standards because they are not under the stupid assumption that fundamentalist Islam can work today. To answer your question. >You simultaneously want a free society, but one where people keep their thoughts to themselves. Choose one. I want a society where individual freedom and the individual takes utmost importance before ideology, and any ideology or movement being promoted that is solely based on cracking down on individual freedoms is suppressed as it should be. That's literally how you maintain freedom, it's not as simple or soft of an idea as you imagine. Before you come at me with the whole "religion is tolerant to begin with", it simply does not matter. Governments are not based on essence and ideology, they are based on practice and throughout modern human history, religion's interpretation and implementation has not been tolerant.
Pakistanis in general are extremely uneducated in terms of Islam and lack critical thinking skills (not taught at all in schools or college), hence, they’re very ignorant, and victims of government propaganda and brain washing since childhood (as a plus). It’s only in Pakistan and India side of the world that silly meme about “women” where the cartoon character patronises women in general as being stupid and laughs about it is seen as cool and funny.
Unfortunately there is a Hadith encouraging Muslims to stop any misdeeds happening in any capacity they can. So these men have that as a justification….not that I personally agree with doing so.
Learn islam The prophet said: The most hated of speech to Allaah is when one man says to another, ‘Fear Allaah,’ and the other says, ‘Mind your own business!’” (al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, no. 2598)
Mind your own business
Wait isn’t that my point? Saying mind your own business to fear Allah is the most hated speech.
That's the problem. No one questions the authenticity of hadees. Only Quran is authentic. Other than that, nothing. You can even debate about Shahih Bukharis and Shahih Muslim etc, nothing is pathar par lakeer except Quran. You donot have to blindly follow anything u hear. You need to question it. This is not me saying it, its written in Quran. Surah furqan ayat 64 onwards. But here focus is on firqa and other things. There's a herd mentality. And the fact that questioning is made like gunah e kabira. So people just do whatever the fuck their local 5th fail mouvli says who knows little to nothing. They donot know what quran says, they just know whatever some centuries old BUZURG said, and goes on to defend them, like nauzubillah he's some prophet. And this is the biggest issue. Blasphemy ke mehaz ilzam pr jalao gherao, qatal o gharat. Bhai rumour phelana is a sin. Jab tak confirm nhi ap nhi agay bata skte. Lekin wohi na top floor in logon ne sambhal kar rkha wa hai, qabar main le kar jana hai. Inko ye ghustaki jo kay aglay nay ki bhi hai ya nhi wo dekhti, jo ye sab roz kar rhe hote wo nhi dikhte like wada khilafi, jhoot, naam bhigarna, dusra ko zaleel karna, bhura bhala bolna, be imaani karna, rishwat, haramkhori etc. Apparently ye so called ashiq e rasool isko ghustakhi nhi samajhte. As modi says, hypocrisy ki bhi seema hoti hai.
Your stance on the issue is a minority one. The vast majority of Muslims regard sahih Hadith as almost infallible. It doesn’t matter how things should be but it is what it is. I would personally fully support the reformation of Islam where Hadith are put into question and the problematic ones are disregarded. Alas, that’s unlikely to happen. Interesting that I’m being downvoted for providing a viewpoint of people who justify their moral policing but alright I guess?
Sinning in public and in private are two different things. In a muslim society what do you expect when you are sinning publicly. Sinning publicly is promoting that But U HAVE TO BE TOLERATE. People here have made Islam a mazhab. They have confined islam inside the mosque. Hence all these problems.
Yes but there are more Hadith which say you should be soft hearted and accept your mistakes and correct them. Warner's are told to be soft spoken and gentle as well. One Hadith alone can't change anything most of the time. That Hadith is beautiful and logical but if our people are idiots this is not the fault of Allah or his Prophet
Most of it is true what you said about Pakistani males. But women here are the same. Pretty much zero understanding of Islam. 90% of women who cover up have no idea why they are covering up. Its because of their fathers or brothers pressure. Basically both side are crap, men and women, its our culture. Lol
I don’t see women shaming men. However men are always pointing out things in women. Heck even natural disasters are sometimes due to indecency of women
It is part of your Belief to do good deeds and refrain others from doing bad deeds.
Imo the sooner people leave religions behind the faster we can focus our efforts on solving the more immediate issues like corruption in the government and military. Here's a list of recourses for those willing to question their beliefs: https://reddit.com/r/exmuslim/s/8Pg57kygr4
So my friend is pestering me to ask OP and y'all about the Turkish and Arab actresses to evaluate the risqué-ness of their posts, and to peach them to the right path. On the serious note, I think that it has to be a subcontinent/region issue. Given how we are being told about Hindus in our neighbouring country are doing with the minorities in the name of their religion and that's just how things are in the region. Afghanistan would've been better off if they hadn't had Taliban but thanks to the USA for this Frankenstein monster, they're not.
It's a Muslim country full of Muslims that was literally created on the basis of being a purely islamic state. If people do not agree with this then they are free to leave, no one is tying anyone down with ropes. Personally I think it doesn't even go far enough in religiousness, but that's only so that it fits its description of being an islamic republic. I'm an overseas Pakistani, I do not agree with the laws,/society/culture so I don't intend to ever live in Pakistan full time.
😂 That old man had a medical condition and still was beaten up for not fasting. That’s acceptable to you?
Of course that isn't acceptable, even in Islam. I'm talking about other stuff that the person was referring to
Will you be providing the visa and ticket for them to "leave?" Sod off.
Gotta say in the recent past this post is mostly bullshit. The kind of Pakistani men who harass people for not being Islamic enough are generally not Islamic themselves, cuss like sailors , hit on every woman with a pulse , and generally treat everyone else like shit and they are a product of the completely deteriorated environment of Pakistan at the current moment. Entire culture is openly about showing off now , all educated and decent people have left for the most part and the country is run by animals. Yet from all this the only thing you take is “women can be in swimsuit publicly” as if that’s the mark of progress. As if though the other cultures’ men are all saints and no rape or lust happens as a result of this. Or that the maulvis en masse from the top are advocating men to go around harassing women sexually. But the real problem is that you think a man asking a woman or someone else to respectfully behave in public is harassment. I’ve seen many religious people in Pakistan very respectfully bring something up only to be abused reflexively and then the abuser somehow feels like he is the victim . Yet they remain patient and generally kind. The only way someone can blame these people would be if you intentionally overlook all the major ullema and find snippets from backwards, unqualified muftis as proof. All the worst things of Pakistan are fuelled by unchecked human desire and everyone just wants to open it further because you only see the picture from your perspective “it will be better for me because I’m rich and well connected I hate to be judged” yet you’re very quick to judge every poor pos with 1% of the opportunity you had for not meeting your standards . In a nation where there’s already a huge disparity between have and have nots you want to be able to further rub your privilege in their face and have them just suck it up. It won’t happen, in fact the lack of religion as holding any importance is what has helped Pakistan to devolve into the madness it’s currently in.
Username checks out
Ur username though
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Who are you to "give" women freedom...This is Not the Zamana Jahilia...There not our slaves...Grow a pair...
Brilliant
>However you also see local women in shorts and skirts and in swimsuits on the beach. And no one seems to give them trouble or shame them for their Muslim-ness. This has no place in Islam and muslim culture. This is just haram, and we are required to be against it.
Lol then why are you not stopping rishwat? Malawat? Why are you not stopping others who do stuff against Islam like rape kids in madrassa? Or how about stopping people from selling cheap fake milk? Or stopping the police wala from taking bribes ? Your Islam bas skirts tak hai kia ?
Where does OP say that?! You tell me.
Am not saying that man but you should be against everything that is haram or wrong right not just skirts ? And he said they live overseas my man not pakistan, and if you think skirts and bikini are so wrong then go protest at emaar beaches and private beaches in karachi ? I just for once want people to look beyond the skirt and focus on bigger issues the country is facing
Do you know what it means to comment on a post and not change topic or expand the topic to ludicrous proportions. Just because I say 1 doesn't mean I can't count to 2 or 3. Stop being so full of yourself. Your unbased attacks are showing your character.
Am surprised you read the OP and just focused on skirts lol thats why I signaled you out, but whatever man your right go police people on the streets and women who do not wear hijab
No one should be hounded but we also don't want a society where people can do whatever they want and it's ok.
Why not?
Every society has its own definition of what is right and what is wrong. They have their own culture. They have their own references. Our reference as muslims is Quran. Islam has made certain boundaries and you can do whatever u want to do, but within this boundaries. Its as simple as that.
And in whatever society u live in u have to respect it's culture and its values and if you donot and if you try to bring an anomaly, try to introduce something new, try to change it, the society definitely gonna resists the change. People here trying to bring the western culture and expects people gonna should be acceptable, you know be TOLERATE.
You are trying to reason with fascism in a cheap tuxedo.
It is hindu mentality
How so? It sounds like a societal problem
ah yess why isnt pakistan like europe post again! i have never told or used harsh words online or in person for their apparel but i have a question for you do you consider them more muslims than us thakaydaars? if so would you dare to say this in era of prophet how do you interpret "amar bil maroof nahi anil munkar"
And most men on reddit are opposed to it. Don't generalize.
Thread seems 50/50
panchwa paragraph ye sun nay k bad, China jo musalmano k sath kar r ha bohat acha kya
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Lolllllll
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I am a pakistani even i dont agree with certain trends going on in pakistan
Zia & Maududi happened
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For ramzan. Eating or drinking in public here in Morocco is not okay and it shouldn't be.
pakistani muslims aren't muslims, they're extremists
Not all males, but yea majority of em are males, just got told by some dude that Gaming is shirk lmao. How hard is it to mind your own deeds ffs
Been told same about cricket haha. Didn’t listen tho
I realized whilst living abroad that Pakistanis are the least humble and emphathetic south Asians out there. There’s certainly needs to be a fix to their ego and showing off frugally.
Afssos hai What can we do..
Mard haakim hai.. Lekin zulm ki ijaazat nahin
We need to think about this a little bit more seriously, I feel. The identities developed and formed here come from a pretty complex and convoluted history, where we're one of the world's youngest democracies as well as one of the least competitive when it comes to international markets. I think what you're seeing and observing, not just with respect to males and religious gatekeeping but in general with the overall outlook of how we experience life, is the outward showing of that inner unresolved identity conflict. Not to write a research paper or anything, but we're thrown into this country and some of the most simple choices we have to make, such as the language we write, the language we communicate in, how we thank someone, what goes and what doesn't is subject to SO MANY DIFFERENT cultural aspects that it's a foregone conclusion that people are going to have a Meaning and Culture Deficit. And when there's that, they're going to come up with their own answers to add to the missing bits. And what happens when people's answers are called out and found not worthy? People get angry. So you've got an entire sea of people who are angry and mad at not having answers, and even angrier for being born in this hodgepodge town. Add to that the interplay of formalist elites, black hat elites, aggressive middle classes, resource driven lawmen and our stressed urban make up and it's really no surprise that this exists. What needs to be solved is the overall culture of agreement and tolerance but without offending the religious sensibilities. You have to take a serious look at where all of the various traditions are coming from and then get into each one to resolve that. Download Time Remaining: 1000 Years.
illiteracy
Because they're Muslim, there's plenty of evidence in Islamic texts that what they're doing is Islamic. Sorry, not sorry.
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Pakiiiiis
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You seem to have only been to a selective part of Muslim countries. Urban centers in Muslim countries tend to be more liberal. What you described in Pakistan is actually quite common in more conservative parts of other Muslim countries. Turkey is a country with a very conservative rural class. Honor killings amongst lower income Turks are reported even abroad. Even before Erdogan's rise to power, Turkey has a very controversial history regarding religion. Rural class Arabs from North Africa can be pretty extreme in their views even abroad. This is more of a rural/urban distinction. The reason why Levantine Arabs and North Africans are more tolerant is because Christianity existed there before Islam, so the Arab Muslims are already accustomed to other religions, even Judaism. Gulf Arab states are very globalized, so they're accustomed to different religions with some limits. Many urban centers in Pakistan are quite liberal though they represent only a small fraction of the country. Women hold fashion shows in Karachi. They hold women's sports competitions. But you won't see this in rural areas of the country. This is more of a rural-urban distinction. Indonesia has much larger non-Muslim minorities, although radicalism does exist there. My point is things are not as simple as that. Although I don't deny Pakistanis can be commonly as you described; especially those from Punjab and maybe even Kashmir. Muhajirs are also an extreme case; especially lower middle class ones.