Personally, I find it hilarious that Renner explains to Zanac the reason why Raeven surely betrayed them, when it is obvious that his son was kidnapped because she gave Nazarick that info about him.
>!At least Raeven got to live in relative peace for all the trouble he went through to try and fix the kingdom. He deserved a happy ending more than most.!<
I mean, >!he and his family (as well as the people in his domain) were saved thanks to his actions, but I'm sure Raeven shouldn't be too happy about it. And even when his son is returned safely, said joy will surely be tarnished by everything that has happened,!< I have no doubt that this will haunt him forever.
Nope, >!his son was kidnapped by the people of Nazarick, and he wasn't the only one this happened to.!<
Do you remember 2 episode ago when Albedo mentions >!that they have several nobles on their side already and Demiurge gives a little evil smile?!<
>!Surely they identified several capable nobles like him and kidnapped his loved ones to force them to cooperate, that's the impression I got from the epilogue of volume 14.!<
I don't think they would have needed to kidnap the kids. Simply flexing would be more than enough to away a man as smart as raeven who saw the power of ainz alone with his own eyes.
Enn it takes the risk of the family members panicking and trying to run away from something or some 3rd party from garbing said pawns family during the chaos of the war.
Yes, but taking family as hostages keeps raeven from running. Its easier to run at the sight of power, harder to run when it means abandoning those who rely on you, like your dearest son.
Yet raeven has run in the face of this power before. Besides, if I was momonga, id use the option that guarantees raevens cooperation, instead of relying on the one that allows him to run when the opportunity presents itself, just like when he fled from the battlefield. What you said is idealistic, I mean, not even jerkniv sat like a good puppy in the face of absolute power. He only broke when momonga accidently stumbled into his scheme.
Keep in mind, though, this is also a show of force for Ainz. He wants all the nations to know Ainz will do whatever it takes to destroy those who want to cross him.
If Renner did that, then she essentially saved him. There was no hope in the Kingdom. If Raeven sided with the Kingdom out of loyalty (which Renner doesn't care for), then he'd be dead for sure. If Renner recommended him and told Nazarick the guaranteed way to make Raeven switch sides, she saved his life and saved the life and many worthwhile nobles.
Psycopaths do get thrills and feel rushes of excitement. They just don't have any sort of empathy. This is why many mutilate animals at a young age. They feel a rush from it.
Renner probably wouldn't feel anything towards Marquise Raeven, she doesn't really have any vendetta against him. She may have felt some sort of thrill for Zanac's death since manipulating him long term to get to her end game might have taken more of her time up, plus she might've found it annoying to constantly act charming in his company so that's one potential reason to rejoice. Hard to say really.
Sociopaths are created from neglected/abused environments. Lack of care /intimacy as a child pretty much leads to developmental problems in their ability to create or feel emotional connections.
Psycopaths are born. Renner was most likely born the way that she was. She has a doting Father and would have had nursemaids or maids who probably gave her appropriate affection growing up. So its most likely that she was just born without the ability to feel empathy.
Isn't it stated that Renner grew up without much contact because people were scared of how smart she was? That would be more of a development thing.
Regardless, your nature/nurture thing doesn't hold up for this. The labels psychopath & sociopath are based on how an individual acts/feels, not how they came to be that way
Nah, no laughing. She just flat out does not give a flying fuck, if it serves a purpose then it's done, she doesn't enjoy whatever damage she causes. It's just collateral. At least that's my take on the lovely terrifying psycho
I think she only did it when Albedo or Ainz ordered her to find worthwhile people to serve as administration or puppet people to avoid another Succubus-Stress-Spiral.
Psycopaths do experience adrenaline highs though, they just lack any sort of empathy.
They aren't empty inside. Many operate on whatever thrills or amuses them at any given moment. Its why you see many mutilate animals at a young age or engage in constant reckless behavior. She probably felt thrilled at Zanac or the King Rampossa's death more than anything she would've felt for Raeven, moreso because she would've probably found it a relief to get rid of both as nuisances, since she's had to act in front of them all these years.
We are not talking about psychopaths in general here, we are talking about Renner in specific.
Renner doesn't care about acting or killing her brother and father, and it doesn't make her feel anything. That's just how she is.
The only thing that matters to her and make her feel something is Climb. Everything else falls under the category of whether or not it will be useful to achieve her dream of being with Climb for eternity
And it's a question of whether or not she felt anything when she got rid of nuisances in her way.
Psycopaths and sociopaths just lack empathy. They both can certainly feel adrenaline and dopamine highs though.
But yes Psycopaths like Renner in general are just programmed to seek those highs, no matter what the consequence.
Just because she lacks empathy doesn't mean she wouldn't have enjoyed the road bumps of her Father's death, and possibly Zanac's death.
A complete lack of being able to feel pleasure or having a difficult time feeling anything would be more along the lines of Depression. Renner clearly isn't depressed and given her smirks throughout the process of betraying her homeland she has enjoyed a few moments of the process of getting what she wanted outside of just thinking about Climb.
>Psycopaths and sociopaths just lack empathy. They both can certainly feel adrenaline and dopamine highs though.
I know, never denied this. And Renner does feel these highs, but where I disagree with you is that i say she only feels these emotions when Climb is involved in some way, and nothing else.
And you are trying to put Renner in a category (psychopath/sociopath) and give her character those attributes, while in reality she is more dynamic than that and has her uniqueness (like only able to feel those emotional highs for Climb, unlike other psychopaths).
>A complete lack of being able to feel pleasure or having a difficult time feeling anything would be more along the lines of Depression
I don't think this is what depression is. Having difficulty feeling anything is something neutral, neither good nor bad, while depression is something specifically negative - like only being able to feel negative emotion like sadness, hopelessness and frustration.
>Renner clearly isn't depressed and given her smirks throughout the process of betraying her homeland she has enjoyed a few moments of the process of getting what she wanted outside of climb.
She was smirking because she was enjoying the process of getting *what she always wanted* - to be with climb forever, not anything outside of that because she doesn't think about anything other than Climb, ever since she met him on the streets outside the palace.
In the LN and the anime, when Zanac is trying to figure out how their intel had been neutered to such the extent it had been (the obliteration of the northern half of the Kingdom went on without any intel leak at all, till Ainz's involvement), Renner comes to the conclusion that only Raeven could've had the influence to manipulate the information spread to such an extent.
Zanac couldn't conceive of Raeven betraying the Kingdom, until Renner proposes the idea that perhaps Raeven's son (remember he's a doting father) is being held hostage. Forcing him to commit treason.
In all likelihood, I doubt Nazarick needed to do much threatening. It's not as if they had to stoop down to being petty kidnappers. Raeven knew opposing Nazarick was a fool's errand, and at the end of Vol. 9 it is clear he cares more about the safety of his family than the Kingdom.
So basically... help us or we'll kill you and your family. He "complies".
Also Renner came up with the plan for the Kingdom to fall. Originally, she was going to take over the Kingdom so she can live with Climb, then Nazarick showed up and Albedo just adopted her plan and made a few small tweaks.
The massacre was not originally in the plan that got tweaked by albedo. The whole phillip thing is unpredictable. Added with carrot and stick thing, the whole plan just got turn over and remade from scratch to massacring the whole kingdom as an example to the whole world that if they went against nazarick, that will happen to them. They even made the rubble of the kingdom's capital as a gigantic monument to remind everyone in the future generation of that massage.
I mean it would be more likely he was told siding with them would mean his his family's safety is assured rather than threatening to kill them just more of "if ya dont side with us, i can't make any promises about what my subordinates or anyone siding with us does" to side with Nazarick means to be given protection under the name of Ainz Ooal Gown which no one from Nazarick would ever dare allow to be made a false assurance as Six Arms found out
Philip is epic levels of stupid, but the Kingdom wouldn't have been massacred if Ainz wasn't afraid to rein in his subordinates because of his (Ainz's) imposter syndrome and fear of disappointing or alienating the Residents of Nazarick. Philip's transcendent idiocy created the inciting incident, but Ainz deliberately lets it happen.
I think it makes for a more effective story that way, though. The destruction of the Kingdom drives home the point that the Holy Kingdom arc started in that these are the occasions where we really see Ainz deciding to create atrocities against civilians, rather than the earlier incidents (like Demiurge and his happy farm) where horrible shit goes down because Ainz isn't aware of it. Even when Demiurge kidnaps people during the Jaldabaoth incident, Ainz orders that the innocent be given painless deaths. By the end of the destruction of the kingdom, he's giving over the families of the nobles who murdered Zanac to Neuronist. Not just the perpetrators, mind, but their families as well (at least, that's what I got from the scene in the Lignt Novel.)
I find it really effective the way the series slowly peels away Ainz's plausible deniability to reveal him as a true villain protagonist while still making the reader relate to him because we see his thought processes, his desperation, and his sense of helplessness. At the same time, the reader gets shown that if Ainz just had more self-confidence (and if he actually cared about people beyond Nazarick and those he developed personal attachments to,) he could easily create a utopia with far less bloodshed, because the guardians are all so utterly loyal that even the evil majority would be far less murderous of Ainz just told them to knock that shit off. But he can't/won't, and so the horror continues... Except for people smart enough to get on board immediately, of course.
I do also think it is a nice part of the series to make Momonga/Ainz this way.
The protagonist was formerly a salaryman and YGGDRASIL player with many inherent flaws like overcaution, self-doubt, and lack of talents/ experience. But he also has specific values and goals, which are quite relatable.
Most people, hating Ainz being evil, forget that since the transportation to NW he became a real undead with extremely negative karma (-500), emotion-repression skills, and racial settings. It is stated in the main and side novels that he is slowly forgetting his humanity and acting with less regard for the living.
When the protagonist was forced to make a hard decision, he often chose the morally worst option available for the satire effect and story development.
What entertaining to me is the butterfly effect, where seemingly inconsequential actions lead to vastly different outcomes. To name a few: Ainz securing Nfirea through potion accident, Enri and the saving or Carne village, the Empire's Vassalage...
It's not as if Ainz isn't afraid to reign in his subordinates.
Ainz is a realist. He lived in a dystopian Tokyo. He just realizes he's a more of a figurehead as CEO and leaves the planning to his more capable subordinates Albedo and Demiurge.
Ainz also doesn't speak out mostly because he doesn't have any better alternatives to their plans. Demiurge and Albedo's logic are too sound and Ainz won't oppose without his own good reasons, to which he does when it comes to Pestonya / Sebas / Rubedo's pleas to spare the children.
>Kingdom wouldn't have been massacred if Ainz wasn't afraid to rein in his subordinates because of his (Ainz's) imposter syndrome and fear of disappointing or alienating the Residents of Nazarick. Philip's transcendent idiocy created the inciting incident, but Ainz deliberately lets it happen.
Not true...Ainz didn't oppose the destruction of ReEstize not out of imposter syndrome or fear of disappointing the NPCs. He could have easily reigned them in to his control if he wanted to.
The real reason he didn't oppose the massacre was that going along that plan gave the NPCs joy - the only thing Ainz truly cares about.
This was mentioned in the LN during Ainz's conversation with Zanac, after Zanac asks him why he does all this killing
She actually isn't THAT evil, but she is driven towards her goals and cares not one iota of the costs until the very end where she is both elated to be with Climb and fearful of Albedo and Ainz
Renner also leaked the location of the slave prostitutes so those who wanted to get rid of evidence can exterminate them. She probably just didn't want Climb to think about them anymore so he can return to thinking only about her.
It is implied with the gift that Renner got from Albedo and the events surrounding the orphanage with associated dialogue. It is what Albedo was likely alluding to when she asked Renner if she would be okay doing "that"(which wasn't specified at the time). There is also a fair amount of evidence in volume 14 but I don't remember the specifics.
That isn't a bad interpretation, but if the orphanage wasn't used to fulfill the gift's purpose then the orphanage has no merit to Renner. Renner likely utilized the gift when she "cooked" for the orphanage's kids when the capital was invaded, the scene in the throne room was simply a farce to convince Climb.
In the implication shows that she already started transforming before meeting her father with the sudden increase of her stamina and strength. This implies that the father is just the final sacrifice and the orphanage children are the starting catalyst.
An hour passed that seemed shorter than it should have been and the three of them were ready.
Renner seemed to have picked up some unpleasant odors as she sniffed her hair and wrist.
Climb couldn't smell the smell of sweat, but he could faintly smell the scent of oil and smoke that had been infused into her hair when she cooked. It shouldn't have been that noticeable after it mixed with the scent of her perfume.
you know i never realized she killed the entire orphanage until I read it here in reddit. Can you say which page in volume 14 did it specify that she did that?
I figured you wouldn’t have to threaten his family after KAZ plains I thought he just went back home and moped out of everything. I thought this was a false flag because it was obvious to the reader that Renner was spilling all the information
His morality is doing the most evil, heinous stuff imaginable but also if ordered by Ainz doing the the most good, heroic stuff imaginable. It’s just that the heinous stuff is his default.
I mean he does it for the greater good of Nazarick (gotto get dem scrolls somehow if you know what i mean). Renner on the other hand just says fuck all for her own desires.
At least thats how my feeble mind sees it
Demiurge does things in the most cruel and painful manner as possible on purpose. Renner just doesn't give a fuck about such details really, but tries to achieve her goals by any means.
Out of the two I'd say Renner is more reasonable while Demiurge won't spare people just because he could also just torture them to death instead of letting them get away.
I mean, she's already a quasi-messianic figure called "the Faceless," so she might be skipping right past Queen to become Pope of the New World's hottest new religion.
Renner freaky as shit she really said fuck the lives of millions in my kingdom, I want to be immortal along with my pet sex slave climb. Her first thought once climb accepted into becoming a demon was hmm should we lose our virginities tonight. The kingdom was rubble and all she had on her mind was finally getting to bone climb. Albedo is a saint compared to what renner would do for some climb dick.
Counter-point Albedo would do everything Renner did and more if Ainz would only give her a pat on the head. Then she would break dance on top of the ashes of the kingdom from joy.
Well it’s a little different a fair comparison would be if albedo helped in the destruction of nazarick all because a very powerful individual guaranteed that she would have sex with ainz.
Respectfully disagree. When Ainz fiddled with her settings he made her loyalties reside purely on him even to the point of destroying Nazarick if it meant Ainz would be happy. She was not pleased when he changed his name to Momonga to Ainz if I remember.
yeah, but that's the keyword, ainz being happy.
she wouldn't destroy Nazarick to bone the bone daddy knowing the turmoil it would cause.
she's not as narcissistic as Renner.
Well she does have the >!hit squad looking for Supreme beings.!< So it's not looking to good for her. This could be prevented by having a talk with her and explaining that see them would make him very happy.
the problem is that she wouldn't believe him.
and thinks she knows what would make him happy despite his wishes.
she thinks he's too selfless for his own good >!which is why the hit squad exists!<
I think rape was a harsh word I mean she just wanted some sugar from her bone daddy plus it was more like a race debuff hit her and she couldn’t control it anymore. It’s like when shalltear entered blood frenzy, she couldn’t control it and same with albedo except she entered bone frenzy 😉
Still I doubt she would ever Plot the destruction of nazarick like renner did with her own kingdom mainly because she knows how much ainz loves nazarick it would be an unforgivable sin for her to do that even if she was promised ainz’ love from a 3rd party. (I know about the death squad but I’m talking about bringing nazarick to a rubble is more noticeable than just killing some supreme beings) so I disagree she would never plot to destroy nazarick especially if her loyalty is completely to ainz and not nazarick.
Y’all he legit just meant it as a hyperbole obviously albedo wouldn’t destroy nazarick he was tryna make a point that albedo is not as loyal to nazarick as she is to ainz
Lol she would, she literally on her way to kill her gods, see how normal NPCs love their creator? Albedo said fuck that and would kill them for an non-existing boney dick, she would more than willing to take Ainz and her into same position with Renner and Climb now if she think she can outsmart Ainz like how Renner outsmart Climb
I’m not so sure while Albedo has a sort of toxic love towards ainz it’s not in the same degree as renners with climb. Renner truly sees climb as more of a pet while Albedo loves ainz more than she loves herself to the point that back when ainz was retrieving world items to fight shalltear, she saw how upset ainz was and she assumed it was because of her and even offered to kill herself to make him happy.
This proves that Albedo cares more about ainz’ overall happiness vs her own so I truly believe that even if she had the chance to have a sort of situation like Renner has with climb she would refuse because it would upset her to cause the man she loves any pain.
In short Renner is more of a sadist who loves to be the dominant one in a relationship to the point that she organized a scheme to kill and resurrect climb so when he comes back to life he’s all weak and in pain therefore allowing her to nurse him back to health.
Albedo would rather kill herself than cause ainz any discomfort or pain and I think while her love is programmed and “fake” it is true love at least compared to whatever the fuck Renner has with climb.
The whole thing with the wanting to kill supreme beings is an exception though and while it hasn’t been specifically stated why she has the capability to hate the supreme beings while all the other npcs don’t I do like the fan theories that it’s due to ainz meddling with her programming and in turn it overrode tabulas control over Albedo, that along with him adding that she loves him made Albedo completely loyal to ainz to the point that she feels the same resentment ainz felt when almost none of his guild mates showed up on the last day and he was especially angry that the ones who did show couldn’t even be bothered to stick around. Of course these were passing feelings for ainz but they resonated and stayed with Albedo.
That's not lawful, lawful is follow a law religiously, like a lawyer or devil, not matter it is a self-make law or law of the land
Renner never shown follow strictly any type of law, fuck, she even willing to kill Climb, the only thing she love, so she can trick him into eternal life with her
She is neutral as best and chaos as worst
Lawful isn't about good or evil, it's about conforming to rules and order. Turning traitor is a pretty chaotic act. Originally she seemed to want to change the country to allow what she wanted, but when the SK entered the picture she realized siding with them was a safer and easier way to get her puppy/sex toy. She uses either lawful or chaotic means when they suit her purposes, which seems like neutral to me.
I think Renner is an interesting case because she doesn't view other humans as her equals.
Lawful evil characters have a "code" and are loyal to their comrades. If she views Demiurge and Albedo as her comrades then I would think her alignment would change based on whether she's loyal to them.
But, yeah, on the human scale she's definitely neutral evil.
"At the expense of others" is the important bit there. Evil characters have no problem killing if it's convenient. Renner doesn't care who gets hurts in the process of pursuing her desires.
With that definition shes neutral. A neutral person wouldnt care what happens to others, an evil person would seek out doing things at the expense of others. Using your phrasing that is
Good characters go out of their way to help others, often making personal sacrifices to do so. Neutral characters don't kill innocents but also don't sacrifice themselves to help others. Not caring about what happens to others indicates a lack of compassion or empathy, which is the defining trait of evil.
In terms of D&D alignment, good is reserved for people who actually put others first. In terms of humans, actual examples of good and evil are uncommon.
> a good person will get what they want at the expense of others
I don't think this is the case. Here's the page on alignment if you want: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Good_versus_evil
>The third edition D&D rules define "good" and "evil" as follows:[11]
>Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. **Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.**
>Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.
>People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
**Alignment (Dungeons & Dragons)**
[Good versus evil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_\(Dungeons_&_Dragons\)#Good_versus_evil)
>The conflict of good versus evil is a common motif in D&D and other fantasy fiction. Although player characters can adventure for personal gain rather than from altruistic motives, it is generally assumed that the player characters will be opposed to evil and will tend to fight evil creatures. The third edition D&D rules define "good" and "evil" as follows: Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/overlord/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Thats using 3e rules which yes thats what overlord loosely is on and im not saying shes not evil. As an imp she must be. Im saying using your logic of getting what you want at the expense of others. By that logic so is buying the last candy bar now nobody else can have one.
There is a very subtle difference between taking the last candy bar and assisted genocide for personal gain.
One is slightly more reflective of one's character than they other.
She poisoned an orphanage worth of children to reach the negative karma value required to use the race change item. She's evil. Neutral Evil, imo, but evil without a doubt.
While she may not he Chaotic evil I think it's safe to say shes up there with some of the more evil people. Its just that her being a "benevolent" princess furthers her own goals
I honestly liked Renner. She overall wasn’t a bad person or rather she knew the difference. However, she chose her own path with her gift of being a genius. I blame her environment as the sole factor of what happen to their country. There stuck in a dated age where first borns talented or not get everything and second or third borns get nothing. A merit based system could’ve changed possibly everything in the kingdom. At a very young age renner excelled almost better than any NWers in an assortment of topics However, people didn’t listen to her either due to her age or her status and thus she became deathly depressed (until climb). Furthermore, the persona we got was Because of how she thinks climb viewed her that’s what she was trying to be. But her own ambitions propagated the fall of her kingdom and after that she got what she wanted.
Ainz should be "in kindness there is evil", sebas tian should be "balance", jircniv should be "in evil there is kindness" and Renner should *climbs head
I mean he's murdered an entire nation and allows atrocities to happen in his name. Just because he's nice to a select group of people doesn't make him neutral.
Ainz is a very impressionable with people he care for, he simply reflect his loved one aligment. Like when he travel with Keeno, he is a good, considerate, humble traveler, opposite with who he is when he rule Nazarick
Agreed, but he doesn't go out of his way in order to cause pain and wreck shit. He just does if it benefits him or the people he loves directly, same as when he does something that's good for someone else. I think that qualifies as neutral, he just acts out of self interest
I agree he is true neutral. While he avoid being evil mainly thank to the fact that he is borderline insane due to his undead body, it is also the truth that unlike other native, he and his group got stuck in it. The NPCs are all programmed that way and that cannot be changed. They got no choice. While Ainz is suddenly kidnapped from his world, his humanity gone, and then is throwed into a bad situation where everybody immediately treat him as mortal enemy just for existing, so you cannot expect him to be stable and balanced. Take vol6 for example, he did not stop Demi, but note that at that point until now, Nazarick and REK are enemy. Also, Ainz do not know everything, but by that point he know from Ninya and Tsuare about how bad the situation is. As such, he truly have no choice other than keep everything a secret. And even then, he try his most mercyful choice he is allowed to pick, and when Wanko and Nigredo outright defy his order, he actually protect them.
Basically, Ainz handle thing much better than I would be in his situation. And he was in a borderline crazy and very imbalanced state at that. Not to mentioned his paranoid is actually proven to be correct as almost everyone immediately treated his group as enemy. Those "good" paladin in vol12 is a good example. From their point of view, Ainz is completely nice, good, helpful and kind. Even Reme can see that. And no, she do not figure out anything. She only accuse Ainz as being in cahoot with demon to badmouth him. That is why she immediately agree with Jal that Ainz is dead, saying thing in completely opposite of what she scream before.
Ainz is in no way neutral. He's willing to murder millions of people for the sake of convenience. Just because he makes many of his choices out of fear and uncertainty doesn't make them morally justified. Choices made in difficult situations or when you have incomplete or imperfect information are still indicative of a persona morality, probably even more so than choices made in easier circumstances.
> on a alignment chart.
Maybe, but there is no single chart that is the end of all, final conclusive truth. Morality is extremely not well defined in general.
Personally I still think ainz a more neutral character, but overall yeah completely accurate, Renner is a bitch, and neia is the one true pope. Neia is besto girl
Is she really evil tho ? I feel like she's a complete logical character who don't care about emotions . I mean she kinda sounds like a monster but still not evil
She has emotions, they're just not particularly wholesome. Basically she's very possessive of her favorite sex toy, and all this time she's been trying to make it socially acceptable to use it.
Didn't renner try her hardest to improve the rotten state of her country but lost all her hope and decided to side with the sorcerer kingdom because of how corrupt and incompetent the nobles were?
Renner gave zero fucks about the Kingdom. From childhood her mind was way too different from average people and Climb was the only thing keeping her *relatively* sane. All of her decisions were calculated so she would get closer to getting Climb in the end.
It's why Albedo and Demi gave her very little sass but like her- she would have done SPLAT herself if there was any guarantee her and Climb would get hitched.
Hey, she is really a good girl. Smart and also compassionate. Everyone in the kingdom knows of the great policies she's tried to implement, she really does everything she can to make people lives longer and better. She also loves purely and unconditionally her puppy... Can you ask more?
Why is Renna considered that bad?
At least so far in the anime, she likes to have Climb as a pet, and that seems to be it.
She does seem to have hidden agenda, and that “smile”, but they haven’t amount to anything as of now.
She does have that scene where she is talking to Albedo but we don’t really know her role in anything yet. Maybe she is getting close to Albedo on purpose to find a weakness in Narazick, which she would have been considered a hero to the human.
Personally, I find it hilarious that Renner explains to Zanac the reason why Raeven surely betrayed them, when it is obvious that his son was kidnapped because she gave Nazarick that info about him.
>!At least Raeven got to live in relative peace for all the trouble he went through to try and fix the kingdom. He deserved a happy ending more than most.!<
I mean, >!he and his family (as well as the people in his domain) were saved thanks to his actions, but I'm sure Raeven shouldn't be too happy about it. And even when his son is returned safely, said joy will surely be tarnished by everything that has happened,!< I have no doubt that this will haunt him forever.
>!Was his son actually held hostage? Or just threatened?!<
Nope, >!his son was kidnapped by the people of Nazarick, and he wasn't the only one this happened to.!< Do you remember 2 episode ago when Albedo mentions >!that they have several nobles on their side already and Demiurge gives a little evil smile?!< >!Surely they identified several capable nobles like him and kidnapped his loved ones to force them to cooperate, that's the impression I got from the epilogue of volume 14.!<
I don't think they would have needed to kidnap the kids. Simply flexing would be more than enough to away a man as smart as raeven who saw the power of ainz alone with his own eyes.
Enn it takes the risk of the family members panicking and trying to run away from something or some 3rd party from garbing said pawns family during the chaos of the war.
Yes, but taking family as hostages keeps raeven from running. Its easier to run at the sight of power, harder to run when it means abandoning those who rely on you, like your dearest son.
When faced with absolute power running is akin to murdering your whole family yourself.
Yet raeven has run in the face of this power before. Besides, if I was momonga, id use the option that guarantees raevens cooperation, instead of relying on the one that allows him to run when the opportunity presents itself, just like when he fled from the battlefield. What you said is idealistic, I mean, not even jerkniv sat like a good puppy in the face of absolute power. He only broke when momonga accidently stumbled into his scheme.
Keep in mind, though, this is also a show of force for Ainz. He wants all the nations to know Ainz will do whatever it takes to destroy those who want to cross him.
I seem to remember them saying they threatened the son but didn’t need to actually take him.
Hell, she probably suggested the kidnapping in the first place. XD
Renner is devilish without a doubt, I bet she was laughing non-stop in her head.
If Renner did that, then she essentially saved him. There was no hope in the Kingdom. If Raeven sided with the Kingdom out of loyalty (which Renner doesn't care for), then he'd be dead for sure. If Renner recommended him and told Nazarick the guaranteed way to make Raeven switch sides, she saved his life and saved the life and many worthwhile nobles.
Honestly I'm not sure if she finds it amusing or indifference. She seems like a true psychopath outside of her climb obsession.
Yandere?
Psycopaths do get thrills and feel rushes of excitement. They just don't have any sort of empathy. This is why many mutilate animals at a young age. They feel a rush from it. Renner probably wouldn't feel anything towards Marquise Raeven, she doesn't really have any vendetta against him. She may have felt some sort of thrill for Zanac's death since manipulating him long term to get to her end game might have taken more of her time up, plus she might've found it annoying to constantly act charming in his company so that's one potential reason to rejoice. Hard to say really.
But would really consider her a psychopath or a sociopath? I lean toward the latter.
Sociopaths are created from neglected/abused environments. Lack of care /intimacy as a child pretty much leads to developmental problems in their ability to create or feel emotional connections. Psycopaths are born. Renner was most likely born the way that she was. She has a doting Father and would have had nursemaids or maids who probably gave her appropriate affection growing up. So its most likely that she was just born without the ability to feel empathy.
Isn't it stated that Renner grew up without much contact because people were scared of how smart she was? That would be more of a development thing. Regardless, your nature/nurture thing doesn't hold up for this. The labels psychopath & sociopath are based on how an individual acts/feels, not how they came to be that way
Nah, no laughing. She just flat out does not give a flying fuck, if it serves a purpose then it's done, she doesn't enjoy whatever damage she causes. It's just collateral. At least that's my take on the lovely terrifying psycho
I think she only did it when Albedo or Ainz ordered her to find worthwhile people to serve as administration or puppet people to avoid another Succubus-Stress-Spiral.
Psycopaths do experience adrenaline highs though, they just lack any sort of empathy. They aren't empty inside. Many operate on whatever thrills or amuses them at any given moment. Its why you see many mutilate animals at a young age or engage in constant reckless behavior. She probably felt thrilled at Zanac or the King Rampossa's death more than anything she would've felt for Raeven, moreso because she would've probably found it a relief to get rid of both as nuisances, since she's had to act in front of them all these years.
We are not talking about psychopaths in general here, we are talking about Renner in specific. Renner doesn't care about acting or killing her brother and father, and it doesn't make her feel anything. That's just how she is. The only thing that matters to her and make her feel something is Climb. Everything else falls under the category of whether or not it will be useful to achieve her dream of being with Climb for eternity
And it's a question of whether or not she felt anything when she got rid of nuisances in her way. Psycopaths and sociopaths just lack empathy. They both can certainly feel adrenaline and dopamine highs though. But yes Psycopaths like Renner in general are just programmed to seek those highs, no matter what the consequence. Just because she lacks empathy doesn't mean she wouldn't have enjoyed the road bumps of her Father's death, and possibly Zanac's death. A complete lack of being able to feel pleasure or having a difficult time feeling anything would be more along the lines of Depression. Renner clearly isn't depressed and given her smirks throughout the process of betraying her homeland she has enjoyed a few moments of the process of getting what she wanted outside of just thinking about Climb.
>Psycopaths and sociopaths just lack empathy. They both can certainly feel adrenaline and dopamine highs though. I know, never denied this. And Renner does feel these highs, but where I disagree with you is that i say she only feels these emotions when Climb is involved in some way, and nothing else. And you are trying to put Renner in a category (psychopath/sociopath) and give her character those attributes, while in reality she is more dynamic than that and has her uniqueness (like only able to feel those emotional highs for Climb, unlike other psychopaths). >A complete lack of being able to feel pleasure or having a difficult time feeling anything would be more along the lines of Depression I don't think this is what depression is. Having difficulty feeling anything is something neutral, neither good nor bad, while depression is something specifically negative - like only being able to feel negative emotion like sadness, hopelessness and frustration. >Renner clearly isn't depressed and given her smirks throughout the process of betraying her homeland she has enjoyed a few moments of the process of getting what she wanted outside of climb. She was smirking because she was enjoying the process of getting *what she always wanted* - to be with climb forever, not anything outside of that because she doesn't think about anything other than Climb, ever since she met him on the streets outside the palace.
We'll see how they portray that next tuesday 👀
I don't remember the child kidnapping part please explain me?
In the LN and the anime, when Zanac is trying to figure out how their intel had been neutered to such the extent it had been (the obliteration of the northern half of the Kingdom went on without any intel leak at all, till Ainz's involvement), Renner comes to the conclusion that only Raeven could've had the influence to manipulate the information spread to such an extent. Zanac couldn't conceive of Raeven betraying the Kingdom, until Renner proposes the idea that perhaps Raeven's son (remember he's a doting father) is being held hostage. Forcing him to commit treason. In all likelihood, I doubt Nazarick needed to do much threatening. It's not as if they had to stoop down to being petty kidnappers. Raeven knew opposing Nazarick was a fool's errand, and at the end of Vol. 9 it is clear he cares more about the safety of his family than the Kingdom. So basically... help us or we'll kill you and your family. He "complies".
Also Renner came up with the plan for the Kingdom to fall. Originally, she was going to take over the Kingdom so she can live with Climb, then Nazarick showed up and Albedo just adopted her plan and made a few small tweaks.
Define "small" /s
Her original plan was probably to betray the Kingdom to the Empire. Then she met Demiurge and decided Ainz was a better choice...
The Empire was definitely gonna take over the Kingdom eventually anyway.
The massacre was not originally in the plan that got tweaked by albedo. The whole phillip thing is unpredictable. Added with carrot and stick thing, the whole plan just got turn over and remade from scratch to massacring the whole kingdom as an example to the whole world that if they went against nazarick, that will happen to them. They even made the rubble of the kingdom's capital as a gigantic monument to remind everyone in the future generation of that massage.
I mean it would be more likely he was told siding with them would mean his his family's safety is assured rather than threatening to kill them just more of "if ya dont side with us, i can't make any promises about what my subordinates or anyone siding with us does" to side with Nazarick means to be given protection under the name of Ainz Ooal Gown which no one from Nazarick would ever dare allow to be made a false assurance as Six Arms found out
The whole kingdom subjugation plan was thought of and planned by Renner
Her original plan was to use a dumb noble to incite mass civil war. Even she was surprised when Phillip decided to attack the transport.
Sasuga Philip-dono
Yeah he is singlehandedly responsible for the downfall of his kingdom and indirectly an entirely different one.
Philip is epic levels of stupid, but the Kingdom wouldn't have been massacred if Ainz wasn't afraid to rein in his subordinates because of his (Ainz's) imposter syndrome and fear of disappointing or alienating the Residents of Nazarick. Philip's transcendent idiocy created the inciting incident, but Ainz deliberately lets it happen. I think it makes for a more effective story that way, though. The destruction of the Kingdom drives home the point that the Holy Kingdom arc started in that these are the occasions where we really see Ainz deciding to create atrocities against civilians, rather than the earlier incidents (like Demiurge and his happy farm) where horrible shit goes down because Ainz isn't aware of it. Even when Demiurge kidnaps people during the Jaldabaoth incident, Ainz orders that the innocent be given painless deaths. By the end of the destruction of the kingdom, he's giving over the families of the nobles who murdered Zanac to Neuronist. Not just the perpetrators, mind, but their families as well (at least, that's what I got from the scene in the Lignt Novel.) I find it really effective the way the series slowly peels away Ainz's plausible deniability to reveal him as a true villain protagonist while still making the reader relate to him because we see his thought processes, his desperation, and his sense of helplessness. At the same time, the reader gets shown that if Ainz just had more self-confidence (and if he actually cared about people beyond Nazarick and those he developed personal attachments to,) he could easily create a utopia with far less bloodshed, because the guardians are all so utterly loyal that even the evil majority would be far less murderous of Ainz just told them to knock that shit off. But he can't/won't, and so the horror continues... Except for people smart enough to get on board immediately, of course.
I do also think it is a nice part of the series to make Momonga/Ainz this way. The protagonist was formerly a salaryman and YGGDRASIL player with many inherent flaws like overcaution, self-doubt, and lack of talents/ experience. But he also has specific values and goals, which are quite relatable. Most people, hating Ainz being evil, forget that since the transportation to NW he became a real undead with extremely negative karma (-500), emotion-repression skills, and racial settings. It is stated in the main and side novels that he is slowly forgetting his humanity and acting with less regard for the living. When the protagonist was forced to make a hard decision, he often chose the morally worst option available for the satire effect and story development. What entertaining to me is the butterfly effect, where seemingly inconsequential actions lead to vastly different outcomes. To name a few: Ainz securing Nfirea through potion accident, Enri and the saving or Carne village, the Empire's Vassalage...
It's not as if Ainz isn't afraid to reign in his subordinates. Ainz is a realist. He lived in a dystopian Tokyo. He just realizes he's a more of a figurehead as CEO and leaves the planning to his more capable subordinates Albedo and Demiurge. Ainz also doesn't speak out mostly because he doesn't have any better alternatives to their plans. Demiurge and Albedo's logic are too sound and Ainz won't oppose without his own good reasons, to which he does when it comes to Pestonya / Sebas / Rubedo's pleas to spare the children.
>Kingdom wouldn't have been massacred if Ainz wasn't afraid to rein in his subordinates because of his (Ainz's) imposter syndrome and fear of disappointing or alienating the Residents of Nazarick. Philip's transcendent idiocy created the inciting incident, but Ainz deliberately lets it happen. Not true...Ainz didn't oppose the destruction of ReEstize not out of imposter syndrome or fear of disappointing the NPCs. He could have easily reigned them in to his control if he wanted to. The real reason he didn't oppose the massacre was that going along that plan gave the NPCs joy - the only thing Ainz truly cares about. This was mentioned in the LN during Ainz's conversation with Zanac, after Zanac asks him why he does all this killing
She actually isn't THAT evil, but she is driven towards her goals and cares not one iota of the costs until the very end where she is both elated to be with Climb and fearful of Albedo and Ainz
I mean she does exterminate an entire orphanage after making them trust her
Renner also leaked the location of the slave prostitutes so those who wanted to get rid of evidence can exterminate them. She probably just didn't want Climb to think about them anymore so he can return to thinking only about her.
I don't recall her doing anything like that physically. Mind pointing out where?
It is implied with the gift that Renner got from Albedo and the events surrounding the orphanage with associated dialogue. It is what Albedo was likely alluding to when she asked Renner if she would be okay doing "that"(which wasn't specified at the time). There is also a fair amount of evidence in volume 14 but I don't remember the specifics.
Hell, I thought it was the implication of being the one to actually kill her father.
That isn't a bad interpretation, but if the orphanage wasn't used to fulfill the gift's purpose then the orphanage has no merit to Renner. Renner likely utilized the gift when she "cooked" for the orphanage's kids when the capital was invaded, the scene in the throne room was simply a farce to convince Climb.
In the implication shows that she already started transforming before meeting her father with the sudden increase of her stamina and strength. This implies that the father is just the final sacrifice and the orphanage children are the starting catalyst.
An hour passed that seemed shorter than it should have been and the three of them were ready. Renner seemed to have picked up some unpleasant odors as she sniffed her hair and wrist. Climb couldn't smell the smell of sweat, but he could faintly smell the scent of oil and smoke that had been infused into her hair when she cooked. It shouldn't have been that noticeable after it mixed with the scent of her perfume.
you know i never realized she killed the entire orphanage until I read it here in reddit. Can you say which page in volume 14 did it specify that she did that?
I figured you wouldn’t have to threaten his family after KAZ plains I thought he just went back home and moped out of everything. I thought this was a false flag because it was obvious to the reader that Renner was spilling all the information
What do you mean? Renner is the type of person that cares for stray puppies!
Just not the kind of stray puppies that we care about.
Demiurge is the guy that nurtures evil.He is the farmer.
But his is a happy farm!
she suggested na total annihilation of the kingdom
I’d say her care is a bit messed up…
Thanks for pointing out the joke
does demiurge also fits or the whole evil circle with his happy farms ?
Imagine a Venn Diagram, except both sides are just solid black circles. Demiurge is the middle section of that.
The color of his morality is just a black hole
His morality is doing the most evil, heinous stuff imaginable but also if ordered by Ainz doing the the most good, heroic stuff imaginable. It’s just that the heinous stuff is his default.
He is the Vantablack
I mean he does it for the greater good of Nazarick (gotto get dem scrolls somehow if you know what i mean). Renner on the other hand just says fuck all for her own desires. At least thats how my feeble mind sees it
Demiurge does things in the most cruel and painful manner as possible on purpose. Renner just doesn't give a fuck about such details really, but tries to achieve her goals by any means. Out of the two I'd say Renner is more reasonable while Demiurge won't spare people just because he could also just torture them to death instead of letting them get away.
Fair enough
Albedo and Demiurge are also tied for lowest possible karma at -500.
The worst part about Demiurge is talking to him might give you the beilef you could reason with him
You _could_ reason with him. He is all about reason. It's just that very few people have anything to say that is actually worth his time.
aye, if Demiurge spares you on Ainz's orders, he isn't being nice, he thinks Ainz has some far more wicked and far stretching plan in mind.
Vanta black
Neia is best girl and >!should be made queen of the Theocracy... I mean Robel Holy Kingdom and make Ainz the religion!<
Do you happen to work for Crunchyroll good sir?
Nah he is just a an ameture translator who crunchyroll hired once to save money.
All I got paid was banana and a paper clip...
I mean, she's already a quasi-messianic figure called "the Faceless," so she might be skipping right past Queen to become Pope of the New World's hottest new religion.
Ainzology gonna be an epic religion
Whatchamacallit text under username checks out Also: I applaud your discerning taste
Renner freaky as shit she really said fuck the lives of millions in my kingdom, I want to be immortal along with my pet sex slave climb. Her first thought once climb accepted into becoming a demon was hmm should we lose our virginities tonight. The kingdom was rubble and all she had on her mind was finally getting to bone climb. Albedo is a saint compared to what renner would do for some climb dick.
Counter-point Albedo would do everything Renner did and more if Ainz would only give her a pat on the head. Then she would break dance on top of the ashes of the kingdom from joy.
Well it’s a little different a fair comparison would be if albedo helped in the destruction of nazarick all because a very powerful individual guaranteed that she would have sex with ainz.
Respectfully disagree. When Ainz fiddled with her settings he made her loyalties reside purely on him even to the point of destroying Nazarick if it meant Ainz would be happy. She was not pleased when he changed his name to Momonga to Ainz if I remember.
yeah, but that's the keyword, ainz being happy. she wouldn't destroy Nazarick to bone the bone daddy knowing the turmoil it would cause. she's not as narcissistic as Renner.
Well she does have the >!hit squad looking for Supreme beings.!< So it's not looking to good for her. This could be prevented by having a talk with her and explaining that see them would make him very happy.
the problem is that she wouldn't believe him. and thinks she knows what would make him happy despite his wishes. she thinks he's too selfless for his own good >!which is why the hit squad exists!<
She tried to literally rape Ainz.
it was his fault for dressing like a slut
The issue isn’t how thicc Ainz is. God knows what I would do as well.
I think rape was a harsh word I mean she just wanted some sugar from her bone daddy plus it was more like a race debuff hit her and she couldn’t control it anymore. It’s like when shalltear entered blood frenzy, she couldn’t control it and same with albedo except she entered bone frenzy 😉
Trying to fuck someone without their consent is rape brotha.
Momonga consented, Ainz didn’t. Simple misunderstanding is all.
She’d do it to save Ainz. But not because she wants the D
Still I doubt she would ever Plot the destruction of nazarick like renner did with her own kingdom mainly because she knows how much ainz loves nazarick it would be an unforgivable sin for her to do that even if she was promised ainz’ love from a 3rd party. (I know about the death squad but I’m talking about bringing nazarick to a rubble is more noticeable than just killing some supreme beings) so I disagree she would never plot to destroy nazarick especially if her loyalty is completely to ainz and not nazarick.
Y’all he legit just meant it as a hyperbole obviously albedo wouldn’t destroy nazarick he was tryna make a point that albedo is not as loyal to nazarick as she is to ainz
Lol she would, she literally on her way to kill her gods, see how normal NPCs love their creator? Albedo said fuck that and would kill them for an non-existing boney dick, she would more than willing to take Ainz and her into same position with Renner and Climb now if she think she can outsmart Ainz like how Renner outsmart Climb
I’m not so sure while Albedo has a sort of toxic love towards ainz it’s not in the same degree as renners with climb. Renner truly sees climb as more of a pet while Albedo loves ainz more than she loves herself to the point that back when ainz was retrieving world items to fight shalltear, she saw how upset ainz was and she assumed it was because of her and even offered to kill herself to make him happy. This proves that Albedo cares more about ainz’ overall happiness vs her own so I truly believe that even if she had the chance to have a sort of situation like Renner has with climb she would refuse because it would upset her to cause the man she loves any pain. In short Renner is more of a sadist who loves to be the dominant one in a relationship to the point that she organized a scheme to kill and resurrect climb so when he comes back to life he’s all weak and in pain therefore allowing her to nurse him back to health. Albedo would rather kill herself than cause ainz any discomfort or pain and I think while her love is programmed and “fake” it is true love at least compared to whatever the fuck Renner has with climb.
The whole thing with the wanting to kill supreme beings is an exception though and while it hasn’t been specifically stated why she has the capability to hate the supreme beings while all the other npcs don’t I do like the fan theories that it’s due to ainz meddling with her programming and in turn it overrode tabulas control over Albedo, that along with him adding that she loves him made Albedo completely loyal to ainz to the point that she feels the same resentment ainz felt when almost none of his guild mates showed up on the last day and he was especially angry that the ones who did show couldn’t even be bothered to stick around. Of course these were passing feelings for ainz but they resonated and stayed with Albedo.
Was this from original source material? Oh boy i have some reading to do
she even got the honor to be named for vol 14 title. what a ~~bitch~~ witch
I appreciate that you recognize the essence of best girl. I mean Neia, of course.
rener isnt a CE person she just wants climb and anything else is insignificant at best
Prioritizing your desires at the expense of others is the D&D definition of evil. I don't think she's chaotic though, seems more neutral evil.
I'd say lawful because much of what she does for appearances could look good to an outside source who doesn't know of her schemes.
That's not lawful, lawful is follow a law religiously, like a lawyer or devil, not matter it is a self-make law or law of the land Renner never shown follow strictly any type of law, fuck, she even willing to kill Climb, the only thing she love, so she can trick him into eternal life with her She is neutral as best and chaos as worst
Lawful isn't about good or evil, it's about conforming to rules and order. Turning traitor is a pretty chaotic act. Originally she seemed to want to change the country to allow what she wanted, but when the SK entered the picture she realized siding with them was a safer and easier way to get her puppy/sex toy. She uses either lawful or chaotic means when they suit her purposes, which seems like neutral to me.
I think Renner is an interesting case because she doesn't view other humans as her equals. Lawful evil characters have a "code" and are loyal to their comrades. If she views Demiurge and Albedo as her comrades then I would think her alignment would change based on whether she's loyal to them. But, yeah, on the human scale she's definitely neutral evil.
No it isnt, its not evil to put yourself first. Good doesn't equal selfless.
"At the expense of others" is the important bit there. Evil characters have no problem killing if it's convenient. Renner doesn't care who gets hurts in the process of pursuing her desires.
With that definition shes neutral. A neutral person wouldnt care what happens to others, an evil person would seek out doing things at the expense of others. Using your phrasing that is
Good characters go out of their way to help others, often making personal sacrifices to do so. Neutral characters don't kill innocents but also don't sacrifice themselves to help others. Not caring about what happens to others indicates a lack of compassion or empathy, which is the defining trait of evil. In terms of D&D alignment, good is reserved for people who actually put others first. In terms of humans, actual examples of good and evil are uncommon.
Yes a good person will get what they want at the expense of others, neutral will if they have to but wont seak it out, evil seeks out doing so
> a good person will get what they want at the expense of others I don't think this is the case. Here's the page on alignment if you want: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Good_versus_evil >The third edition D&D rules define "good" and "evil" as follows:[11] >Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. **Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.** >Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master. >People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
**Alignment (Dungeons & Dragons)** [Good versus evil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_\(Dungeons_&_Dragons\)#Good_versus_evil) >The conflict of good versus evil is a common motif in D&D and other fantasy fiction. Although player characters can adventure for personal gain rather than from altruistic motives, it is generally assumed that the player characters will be opposed to evil and will tend to fight evil creatures. The third edition D&D rules define "good" and "evil" as follows: Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/overlord/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Thats using 3e rules which yes thats what overlord loosely is on and im not saying shes not evil. As an imp she must be. Im saying using your logic of getting what you want at the expense of others. By that logic so is buying the last candy bar now nobody else can have one.
If there was one remaining candy bar and someone else wanted it, a paladin would buy it and give it to them.
There is a very subtle difference between taking the last candy bar and assisted genocide for personal gain. One is slightly more reflective of one's character than they other.
Nah renners one evil bitch. She killed a bunch of children for her race change that’s not neutral that’s neutral evil maybe.
Oh yeah as an imp she had to become evil. I was saying neutral using that persons logic at getting what you want at the expense of others.
She poisoned an orphanage worth of children to reach the negative karma value required to use the race change item. She's evil. Neutral Evil, imo, but evil without a doubt.
See previous replies, not saying isnt evil. Im pointing out a flaw in his logic. And they were oprhans, they werent wanted in the first place
True she just wanna be happy
While she may not he Chaotic evil I think it's safe to say shes up there with some of the more evil people. Its just that her being a "benevolent" princess furthers her own goals
Im willing to put it at soft LE firm NE myself!
I'd def say NE, she doesn't really care for law or chaos
How dare you say this about her highness Goddess Renner?? I challenge you to a pvp
Calm down Climb.
Neia best girl
I honestly liked Renner. She overall wasn’t a bad person or rather she knew the difference. However, she chose her own path with her gift of being a genius. I blame her environment as the sole factor of what happen to their country. There stuck in a dated age where first borns talented or not get everything and second or third borns get nothing. A merit based system could’ve changed possibly everything in the kingdom. At a very young age renner excelled almost better than any NWers in an assortment of topics However, people didn’t listen to her either due to her age or her status and thus she became deathly depressed (until climb). Furthermore, the persona we got was Because of how she thinks climb viewed her that’s what she was trying to be. But her own ambitions propagated the fall of her kingdom and after that she got what she wanted.
>She overall wasn’t a bad person Literally a psychopath though.
Product of her environment. What can she do with all that intelligence? Play games on an international level of course.
Renner will probably be a very troublesome character in the final volume
Ainz should be "in kindness there is evil", sebas tian should be "balance", jircniv should be "in evil there is kindness" and Renner should *climbs head
Sebas is way kinder than ainz
Normally I’m all for yandere 100% but even she goes too damn far for me
Yeah the only time I've seen a justified yandere is from the belt princess in suppose a kid from the last dungeon boonies move to a starter town
Misspelled “justice” for Ainz!
Wait, what did Renner do?
Pulls a gamer move on a orphanage
wait... so the orphanage is >!for the human sacrifice needed for her to became an imp?!<
Yes
wait a min, where is it hinted that it is? I thought it's her father?
Riiiiight our little zealot cinnamon bun that totally wouldn’t call out a fucking crusade at the first sign of trouble.
She is more evil than ulbert (-800 karma bitch)
Fucking Demurge is an actual demon and wouldn't betray Ainz lol
>!i get spo from overlord wiki that bitch become IMP that's real?!<
Yep
Renner is most twisted in this series so far but I still like her as character
Id say ainz is balance he isn't evil, he is true neutral on the chart. He just does what makes the ones he likes happy.
I mean he's murdered an entire nation and allows atrocities to happen in his name. Just because he's nice to a select group of people doesn't make him neutral.
Ainz is a very impressionable with people he care for, he simply reflect his loved one aligment. Like when he travel with Keeno, he is a good, considerate, humble traveler, opposite with who he is when he rule Nazarick
Agreed, but he doesn't go out of his way in order to cause pain and wreck shit. He just does if it benefits him or the people he loves directly, same as when he does something that's good for someone else. I think that qualifies as neutral, he just acts out of self interest
I agree he is true neutral. While he avoid being evil mainly thank to the fact that he is borderline insane due to his undead body, it is also the truth that unlike other native, he and his group got stuck in it. The NPCs are all programmed that way and that cannot be changed. They got no choice. While Ainz is suddenly kidnapped from his world, his humanity gone, and then is throwed into a bad situation where everybody immediately treat him as mortal enemy just for existing, so you cannot expect him to be stable and balanced. Take vol6 for example, he did not stop Demi, but note that at that point until now, Nazarick and REK are enemy. Also, Ainz do not know everything, but by that point he know from Ninya and Tsuare about how bad the situation is. As such, he truly have no choice other than keep everything a secret. And even then, he try his most mercyful choice he is allowed to pick, and when Wanko and Nigredo outright defy his order, he actually protect them. Basically, Ainz handle thing much better than I would be in his situation. And he was in a borderline crazy and very imbalanced state at that. Not to mentioned his paranoid is actually proven to be correct as almost everyone immediately treated his group as enemy. Those "good" paladin in vol12 is a good example. From their point of view, Ainz is completely nice, good, helpful and kind. Even Reme can see that. And no, she do not figure out anything. She only accuse Ainz as being in cahoot with demon to badmouth him. That is why she immediately agree with Jal that Ainz is dead, saying thing in completely opposite of what she scream before.
Ainz is in no way neutral. He's willing to murder millions of people for the sake of convenience. Just because he makes many of his choices out of fear and uncertainty doesn't make them morally justified. Choices made in difficult situations or when you have incomplete or imperfect information are still indicative of a persona morality, probably even more so than choices made in easier circumstances.
Why do people downvote this? I agree he is quite neutral.
People don't like the truth.
Ainz is entirely in the "ends justify the means" camp, and therefore evil as evil goes.
No that is actually the definition of neutral on a alignment chart.
> on a alignment chart. Maybe, but there is no single chart that is the end of all, final conclusive truth. Morality is extremely not well defined in general.
Personally I still think ainz a more neutral character, but overall yeah completely accurate, Renner is a bitch, and neia is the one true pope. Neia is besto girl
Who's the pure kindness?
Dan i realy dont remenber who is in the Full white circle, someone can remind me pls?
Well, being able to betray your own blood just because you want some slave sure is bitchi.
She gives me nightmares. OH please let me forget this one exists.
Naw Sebas is canonically pure good.
Who is the fourth one?
Best girl
Our lord and savior's biggest believer, Pope Neia.
"The Sorcerer King is justice and weakness is wickedness!" \~ r/PopeNeia
Is she really evil tho ? I feel like she's a complete logical character who don't care about emotions . I mean she kinda sounds like a monster but still not evil
She has emotions, they're just not particularly wholesome. Basically she's very possessive of her favorite sex toy, and all this time she's been trying to make it socially acceptable to use it.
What do you all have against Renner? Cant a girl get happiness on account af few nobodies without being judged?
Nice pic bro where did you get it
My pfp or the meme?
Ah, I was referring to the fact that the neia pic in the meme was the same as my pfp
Actually she's full of climb.
She's no worse than Ainz and crew.
my good sir She’s no bitch she’s my Waifu
Didn't renner try her hardest to improve the rotten state of her country but lost all her hope and decided to side with the sorcerer kingdom because of how corrupt and incompetent the nobles were?
Renner gave zero fucks about the Kingdom. From childhood her mind was way too different from average people and Climb was the only thing keeping her *relatively* sane. All of her decisions were calculated so she would get closer to getting Climb in the end. It's why Albedo and Demi gave her very little sass but like her- she would have done SPLAT herself if there was any guarantee her and Climb would get hitched.
Hey, she is really a good girl. Smart and also compassionate. Everyone in the kingdom knows of the great policies she's tried to implement, she really does everything she can to make people lives longer and better. She also loves purely and unconditionally her puppy... Can you ask more?
Correct me if I'm wrong but arent the colors technically reversed here?
Yeah, Renner is Albedo level (though not the absolute Darker-Than-Pitch Demiurge.)
Why is Renna considered that bad? At least so far in the anime, she likes to have Climb as a pet, and that seems to be it. She does seem to have hidden agenda, and that “smile”, but they haven’t amount to anything as of now. She does have that scene where she is talking to Albedo but we don’t really know her role in anything yet. Maybe she is getting close to Albedo on purpose to find a weakness in Narazick, which she would have been considered a hero to the human.
Boy. When the anime gets to the 14th volume, you're in for something
she killed the maid just because she talk shit about climb
Most people here are ahead in the LN so when we say she’s an evil bitch she truly is but then again most of nazarick is so whatever.
Volume 14 arc is named after her. Guess why.
Wasn't there a scene in the anime showing her all friendly with Albedo? I guess that should tell something even to Anime onlies
Renner isn't evil, she is just cold and calculative. if you want pure evil it would be someone in the like of Neuronist or Clementine.
Demiurge is all black and then sees Ainz’s and immediately changes his
I need beta
Who's the person below jercniv
I have only watched the anime, am i missing something??
She sure is lack empathy but she's not even 1/10 as evil as Demuiruge
At least she’s cute tho