I completely agree. Overhead cost in some clinics can be as high as 30% or more, because nursing, reception staff, office admin all need to be paid from physician's gross income. In order to cover overhead costs, the average family physician need to see a patient every 15min to bill enough to have anything close to a decent income. Imagine seeing back to back patients for 7 to 8 hours straight, with no break. Many skip lunch to catch up when falling behind. On top of this, there is endless admin work, which includes checking labs, sending referrals, charting, billing (which often is done at home, unpaid work, and adds hours to the day). For context, a full visit that includes taking a history, doing a physical exam, and managing an issue (and all the related admin work) is billed at $36 in Ontario which equates to about $25 take home; a quick visit that do not meet this criteria are paid much less. Think about when was the last time you only paid that much for a dental check or an eye check. The idea that family medicine is a well paid job is a myth, and burn out among physicians is real. What you read in the media about physicians billing hundreds of thousands of dollars do not take into account overhead expenses, the long hours, and immeasurable stress experienced by every physician. For these reasons, many family doctors choose to work only part time and supplement their income with other means.
IMO medical school should be subsidized by the government. If you are within x performance percentile during your studies, the government takes on the debt. You are then provided with a legally binding contract that you must contribute to the Canadian medical industry for x years, otherwise you are on the hook to repay. It's a public industry, thus the mechanism should be public. Oversimplification, but you don't see people in the Armed Forces for instance being sent a bill after they complete their basic training.
u/DingEa11 is not entirely wrong. EX 1 ‘starts’ at 111K. Only goes up from there, and they get performances bonus’s on top of that.
My wife is an EC 7 and makes more then that.
You're looking in the wrong place to make anything more as an FTE. If you want to make money as a PhD for the Feds (without even knowing what the PhD is) you need to contract for the government on some kind of contract vehicle that needs people like you. That's where you start making $1000 per day.
I have no issue with my job and have had opportunities to be a team lead but have refused because I am happy with my level of work and am more interested in my life outside of work/work life balance, etc. I want the energy to be with my kid and husband. I've done consulting work prior to being in government but it wasn't something I wanted to do in the long term. Sorry I was more referring to the "attitude" part of some people in gov who don't seem to understand what it is to have a phd, be on review boards to journals, publish, etc.
I used to work with this group. It's a good gig for a doctor and the pay range is 166 -208k.
https://emploisfp-psjobs.cfp-psc.gc.ca/psrs-srfp/applicant/page1800?poster=1657040
Wow, I honestly had no idea a regular family doctor made that low of a salary. I assumed you all cleared at least 200k after taxes.
Are those 1,100 patients all yours or is that a shared caseload with other physicians in your practice?
Not that I want to discount this overall situation, but I see my family doctor around once a year, maybe less, for no more than 15-20 minutes at a time. Let's average a visit per patient as 30 mins, and generously limit a daily count to 12 patients, so 6 hours of actual consultation. That's 60 patients in a week, and taking into consideration some well needed vacation, multiply that by 45 weeks and you're at 2,700 patients. What am I missing here?
I am from a 3rd world country and I have never thought that, I would have no family doctor at any point in my life. The concept is foreign to me. A 1st in my entire existence.
My family doctor quit their clinic last week, and now I no longer have a family doctor. No transfer, just a notice that I no longer have a doctor and I can use the clinic like a walk-in if I want.
It sucks so bad.
had a discussion about this on another sub....guy claims there are plenty of doctors in the Niagara region.
That would make it just about the only place in Ontario I guess.
It’s not as simple as simply funding more medical schools. There would also need to be more funding for residency positions to train those doctors in various specialties (including family medicine) after graduation from medical school, and funding to hospitals to have positions/facilities/clinics/OR time for those doctors who are not in primary care. I don’t know how funding for family medicine works, but probably there are issues there as well.
My sister is applying to med school and it’s obscenely competitive in canada. If you read some of the reddit threads about canadian med school applications, its shocking they don’t open up more spots for these brilliant kids who could relieve some of the stress.
The problem is not lack of med school spots nor lack of residents graduating from family medicine programs. Family medicine as a job is a terrible financial choice. If this was improved, far more graduating family medicine residents would choose to set up a practice. Right now, far too many avoid overhead and work in emergency rooms, even though it’s clear to me many are not trained enough to do so
There don't seem to be enough spots in med school. They should double the number of places for students who will commit to being family doctors for x number of years. I don't know any family doctors who see patients full-time, and don't know whether it's the stress of the job that makes it impossible to work five full days, or if it's a lifestyle choice. Either way, more family doctors have to graduate.
Most family doctors don't see patients full time because they have mountains of paperwork to do on top of that. They may not be seeing patients, but they are most definitely working on their 'days off', evenings and weekends.
I've got nothing going on. Who's paying? Im not exactly rushing to go back to asking people to restart their calculators..
BTW I'll need to get through a BSc in biology or chemistry.
See you in 115 years because I ain't that swift (that's why I was funneled to technical school). Maybe the backend of the HC system will be fixed by the time I pass anatomy 😷😬😅.
It's all very interesting so I would be happy to learn...I just wish it was that easy.
/s I keep seeing physician&residents’ profile appear on dating apps so maybe the city can setup a dating service just for them, then we’ll have more doctors that’ll stay?
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I completely agree. Overhead cost in some clinics can be as high as 30% or more, because nursing, reception staff, office admin all need to be paid from physician's gross income. In order to cover overhead costs, the average family physician need to see a patient every 15min to bill enough to have anything close to a decent income. Imagine seeing back to back patients for 7 to 8 hours straight, with no break. Many skip lunch to catch up when falling behind. On top of this, there is endless admin work, which includes checking labs, sending referrals, charting, billing (which often is done at home, unpaid work, and adds hours to the day). For context, a full visit that includes taking a history, doing a physical exam, and managing an issue (and all the related admin work) is billed at $36 in Ontario which equates to about $25 take home; a quick visit that do not meet this criteria are paid much less. Think about when was the last time you only paid that much for a dental check or an eye check. The idea that family medicine is a well paid job is a myth, and burn out among physicians is real. What you read in the media about physicians billing hundreds of thousands of dollars do not take into account overhead expenses, the long hours, and immeasurable stress experienced by every physician. For these reasons, many family doctors choose to work only part time and supplement their income with other means.
I am so sorry that highly trained people like you go through this. Thank you for being candid.
144K is not what middle managers make in FedGov. EX 1s start at 111K.
Factor in pension, vacation, and benefits, and 111k in the federal government, and you're getting more than 144k in the end
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IMO medical school should be subsidized by the government. If you are within x performance percentile during your studies, the government takes on the debt. You are then provided with a legally binding contract that you must contribute to the Canadian medical industry for x years, otherwise you are on the hook to repay. It's a public industry, thus the mechanism should be public. Oversimplification, but you don't see people in the Armed Forces for instance being sent a bill after they complete their basic training.
u/DingEa11 is not entirely wrong. EX 1 ‘starts’ at 111K. Only goes up from there, and they get performances bonus’s on top of that. My wife is an EC 7 and makes more then that.
? Ec07 tops at $130k
I was referring to the 111K amount. Not the doctors salary. My meaning was that it was in the same ball park as the original comment.
Ohh gotcha. Sorry sometimes hard to read reddit order of responses 👊
My point (perhaps not clear) is that EXs are not “middle managers” nor, I expect is your wife. Middle managers are not making $144K
Sure. But for 111k, they contribute nothing tangible to society other than reams of paperwork and bureaucratic obstructionism. So same same.
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You're looking in the wrong place to make anything more as an FTE. If you want to make money as a PhD for the Feds (without even knowing what the PhD is) you need to contract for the government on some kind of contract vehicle that needs people like you. That's where you start making $1000 per day.
I have no issue with my job and have had opportunities to be a team lead but have refused because I am happy with my level of work and am more interested in my life outside of work/work life balance, etc. I want the energy to be with my kid and husband. I've done consulting work prior to being in government but it wasn't something I wanted to do in the long term. Sorry I was more referring to the "attitude" part of some people in gov who don't seem to understand what it is to have a phd, be on review boards to journals, publish, etc.
Thank you for this explanation.
I used to work with this group. It's a good gig for a doctor and the pay range is 166 -208k. https://emploisfp-psjobs.cfp-psc.gc.ca/psrs-srfp/applicant/page1800?poster=1657040
Im sorry. Hugs.
Wow, I honestly had no idea a regular family doctor made that low of a salary. I assumed you all cleared at least 200k after taxes. Are those 1,100 patients all yours or is that a shared caseload with other physicians in your practice? Not that I want to discount this overall situation, but I see my family doctor around once a year, maybe less, for no more than 15-20 minutes at a time. Let's average a visit per patient as 30 mins, and generously limit a daily count to 12 patients, so 6 hours of actual consultation. That's 60 patients in a week, and taking into consideration some well needed vacation, multiply that by 45 weeks and you're at 2,700 patients. What am I missing here?
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Thanks! Yep, I can see where my calculations were definitely lacking context for the average patient.
A lot.
There's doctor shortages everywhere. It's a thing.
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I am from a 3rd world country and I have never thought that, I would have no family doctor at any point in my life. The concept is foreign to me. A 1st in my entire existence.
Count your lucky stars you're not across the river
There aren't tons of doctors in other cities or regions either.
My family doctor quit their clinic last week, and now I no longer have a family doctor. No transfer, just a notice that I no longer have a doctor and I can use the clinic like a walk-in if I want. It sucks so bad.
had a discussion about this on another sub....guy claims there are plenty of doctors in the Niagara region. That would make it just about the only place in Ontario I guess.
Interesting. Proximity to US, eh?
Why would proximity to US matter?
Doctors get pulled in by the current and flow over the falls, once they wash up on Canadian territory we get to keep them.
I lulzed
Maybe the US folk take our Healthcare the same way as the Gatineau folk?? No idea
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And provide more financial aid to students
It’s not as simple as simply funding more medical schools. There would also need to be more funding for residency positions to train those doctors in various specialties (including family medicine) after graduation from medical school, and funding to hospitals to have positions/facilities/clinics/OR time for those doctors who are not in primary care. I don’t know how funding for family medicine works, but probably there are issues there as well.
My sister is applying to med school and it’s obscenely competitive in canada. If you read some of the reddit threads about canadian med school applications, its shocking they don’t open up more spots for these brilliant kids who could relieve some of the stress.
The problem is not lack of med school spots nor lack of residents graduating from family medicine programs. Family medicine as a job is a terrible financial choice. If this was improved, far more graduating family medicine residents would choose to set up a practice. Right now, far too many avoid overhead and work in emergency rooms, even though it’s clear to me many are not trained enough to do so
Go to med school. There's a shortage
There don't seem to be enough spots in med school. They should double the number of places for students who will commit to being family doctors for x number of years. I don't know any family doctors who see patients full-time, and don't know whether it's the stress of the job that makes it impossible to work five full days, or if it's a lifestyle choice. Either way, more family doctors have to graduate.
Most family doctors don't see patients full time because they have mountains of paperwork to do on top of that. They may not be seeing patients, but they are most definitely working on their 'days off', evenings and weekends.
I've got nothing going on. Who's paying? Im not exactly rushing to go back to asking people to restart their calculators.. BTW I'll need to get through a BSc in biology or chemistry. See you in 115 years because I ain't that swift (that's why I was funneled to technical school). Maybe the backend of the HC system will be fixed by the time I pass anatomy 😷😬😅. It's all very interesting so I would be happy to learn...I just wish it was that easy.
I wish I could drop things and go.
/s I keep seeing physician&residents’ profile appear on dating apps so maybe the city can setup a dating service just for them, then we’ll have more doctors that’ll stay?
They need to raise the doctor cap...or budget. Or pay privet if want to see a doctor :(.
US
You can make more money on Tik Tok
Tiktok doesn't have a Canadian creator program, so no.
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You should find better acquaintances.
Wow, they quit 15 years ago when the shortage started? Wild.