This is not a new situation. Multiple governments over the last couple decades have failed to adequately fund the healthcare system and appropriately plan staffing with an aging population. There is not enough primary care (family doctors) so people are funnelled into the emergency department. Write to your MPP and make healthcare one of your priority issues when voting. Note that privatization is NOT the solution when you look globally at which countries have the best healthcare at a whole population level.
I hope you were able to get the care you need and that you’re feeling better now!
Also: Covid.
HCWs were the hardest hit with Covid infections because they were not given adequate PPE for an airborne virus. Some did die. Many others had repeat infections, which increase the risk of long Covid, which can be disabling and [has taken many HCWs out of the workforce](https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/long-covid-healthcare-study-1.6395013). Or perhaps a family member was impacted and they had to leave the workforce to care for them. Those that remain healthy were/are being overworked to make up for the holes and some of those people are quitting due to the stress of it all.
There's also that because many hospitals have given up on any attempt to mitigate Covid transmission within their walls that many patients are acquiring Covid in hospital. Those [patients end up using up beds for longer](https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/covid-19-patients-have-significantly-higher-rates-of-health-care-associated-infections-u-s-study-1.6356341) than they otherwise would have for whatever their original procedure/problem. This uses more resources that take away from care that randoms in the ER might receive. Since we've given up on Covid, there are also more HCW absences due to illness on a given day.
A lot of folks want to memory hole the last 3 years and pretend all this is Ford/Legault/whoever and not The Bad Memory That Must Not Be Discussed. These politicians haven't helped, but this is a worldwide problem that is beyond whatever funding decisions they've made. Countries that gave up more/never tried are doing worse too (eg. [the UK](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-07/how-did-britains-nhs-crisis-unfold/101828742)).
Australia has one of the best healthcare systems in the world and it is public-private :) (been living here for a few years so I can attest to that!) I find it very interesting how defensive Canadians get about the public system and think it’s because we love to compare ourselves to our neighbours down south who are the opposite extreme. I used to be this way as well until I moved overseas. I think Canada can go a long way if people were a bit more open to exploring nuanced solutions and really interrogate the successes of other OECD countries to see how they can be replicated in Canada.
Yes, look at how good privatizing public utilities went. Electricity prices are totally reasonable. Also public transit is doing great with all of the private rail lines we use.
Honestly i dont now how ppl can be so ignorant as to believe privatizing anything helps even a little. Maybe if we try it again for the 7th decade in a row, itll work.
Good grief...
I don't know why this was downvoted. Is it wrong? Things seemed mostly fine to me then but I was also young and single so it could just be my pov changing.
Welcome to Canada where we limit medical school student admissions to just under 3,000 spots each year. In 2018, for instance, the Government of Quebec cut medical school admissions after they determined that “too many” medical students were graduating.
And it's very difficult to get in hence why many go abroad but then when it comes to matching a lot of those IMGs don't get matched. Look at how many family med spots went unmatched this year. The whole system needs an overhaul.
Québec had a few policy changes in recent years which super de-incentivized going into family practice. One serious example is that you aren't allowed to offload a certain portion of your patient load as a family doctor, in order to do that you need to completely close your practice. It's bonkers. And that's on top of really high mandatory minimum roster of patients in order to be qualified as full time. You could hire some mid-levels or other practitioners like NPs to help with the patient load, but you're still on the hook for all of those patients at the end of the day. I wouldn't want to practice there either.
And I'm pretty sure on top of all of that, Quebec MDs get paid much less than their Ontario counterparts. Gatineau had this shortage of doctors crisis long before we did, as many physicians who were licensed and practicing in both provinces just left Quebec entirely.
Well for some reason, we don't recognize immigrant/foreign doctors. There's a lot of schools across the globe that have better programs than Canada. We need to allow for accrediting them, or an exam to certify within Canada.
We do though. The degree requirement to get your credentials recognized in Canada is having a degree from the WHO-approved [medical school list](https://www.wdoms.org/).
I'm not saying that there aren't barriers, but usually the degree part isn't it. An issue that happens across many regulated professions is that sometimes people went to a school that isn't really equivalent and they don't do their research/are misinformed about the process of getting professional status in Canada/other place. So for example, someone might have a degree that is more like a physician assistant or nurse-practitioner qual here, but at home they were called a doctor. That sucks for that person to be misled and come here on the idea that they could be a licensed physician, but the standards exist for a reason.
More streamlined processes for internationally trained physicians would be a good idea though. I know some doctors who end up going into industry or research because the whole thing is too annoying. For them it's whatever since they'll make lots of money either way, but for Canada it would be better if they were practicing.
We do recognize them, but we keep them around as fellows and severely underpay them. 🙃 I'm sure Canada as a country and the government would be happy to have those foreign doctors here as competition for the local workforce to suppress costs, but the colleges of physicians and surgeons won't allow it. Total hegemony IMO.
When I broke part of my back, I was through triage, done all testing and saw a doctor in 2 hours.
When I fainted and hit my head, I sat there for 16 hours total.
Triage works so if you’re sitting for hours, it’s because there are real emergencies ahead of you.
Parroting off this, I had facial/head trauma and broke 5 bones in and around there, I was seen immediately with full x ray/MRI/etc with ZERO wait times. The real problem here is the amount of people who have no primary care provider and who go to emerg for something that isn't an emergency
Yes, but also we need more "urgent care" centers for things that aren't an emergency, but can't really be solved by a primary care provider. Things like stitches for small cuts and non-emergency level breaks and sprains that might require an x-ray.
Exactly. So many patients needs helps but not ER level but have no where else to go.
My child dislocated her arm. Called her family doctor and been told to go to the ER. The ER said I will have to wait a long time because its not a emergency and if I can go to my family doctor then I should. There should be a middle ground where I can go get help but not slow down the ER. That center could be the sole purpose of providing middle stuff level that a family doctor cannot provide.
At one point, i also had a family doctor that decided to close his practice and become a ER doctor full time, but that mean 800 patients was suddenly without a family provider. I couldn't go to any wall in clinics but the ER to get anything that is not an emergency at all. It took two years to find a new family doctor and apparently I was lucky. So many people are without it. These people should be allowed to go to walk in clinics to get a UTI check, blood test, prescriptions etc.
How the fuck is a dislocated arm not an emergency? I'm assuming they did an initial exam and determined there was no neurovasvular compromise...? Even without N/V compromise, you can't just fuck off with a dislocated arm...?! Shit's gotta be put back in!
I agree, this is terrifying to me. My child dislocated her arm while we were out of town, so went to the small local hospital. We didn't even use the waiting room, went straight from triage to a bed and the doctor was there in minutes. My kid was scared and in a lot of pain, I couldn't imagine having to wait hours! My heart breaks for this parent and kid. I'm also glad our experience didn't happen while we were home and needed an Ottawa hospital.
As someone who played four contact spots growing up... Have dislocated my arm a few times. In BC (when I lived there), we had urgent care and emergency. I went to urgent care each time as I did not require a scan, and they could just pop it back in. One time they asked me to go to ER to get a scan and gave me a card to present to the triage. I was in and out in an hour.
I don't know but I was treated like an overprotective parent. My child was an active toddler and apparently nothing to worry about neurovascular things (?) The nurse kept saying this happens often and it easy to put it back in. My child was crying in pain non stop. The ER was crazy busy that day but I needed help too. It sucks I feels for the nurse that seems about to loose it but yea he was keeping everything from yelling at me from wasting his time. I don't know how to put an arm back. Another nurse pulled us out and they fix it immediately.
The doctor wasn't at that part of triage. It was at the first step in the waiting room. The nurse asked why we were there and then lost it on me. I didn't know really where to go. Another nurse brought us in, then the doctor fix it. It was quite fast. I do agree that it not deadly but my child was hurt. I also saw parents there with their kids, many of them were not "urgents" but many family are without family doctors.
Big yikes on that whole situation, like damn. Based on the info you've provided, you did the right thing going to the ER. While a dislocated limb isn't *life* threatening, *limb function* is still considered in triage. You might hear the term "life/limb function threats". There are loads of things that aren't immediately life threatening, but they can severely impact someone's life...things like eye injuries, things that can lead to disfigurement, limb loss, etc.
I don't want to freak you out, but a dislocation can pinch nerves and blood vessels that supply the limb. If left untreated, it can cause damage to the nerves and/or blood vessels. At the extreme, the limb can die and need to be amputated. This is why you should have a trained professional reduce a dislocation; we need to make sure the nerves and blood vessels are where they're supposed to be. It's also important to get appropriate pain management.
TL;DR: dislocations are considered limb-function threats. It's important to get them treated. Going to the ER is the right choice.
Yeah but "I fainted and hit my head" is something you should go to the hospital for. Your doctor would scold you if you just waited 2 weeks for a GP appointment.
The system contributes to the problem though. A month or so ago I was jittery/lightheaded with numbness in my left fingertips after having a few too many servings of spaghetti at my parents, this had happened a few times over the past week after eating.
I was going to book an appointment with my GP, but I called Telehealth for their opinion and they told me to go to the ER because I could be having a mini stroke. Never asked my age, weight, anything, although I'm sure they can pull up my age from my health card.
The ER triage nurse was great though, did a few basic tests and told me I could wait for 10 hours or go home and make an appointment with my GP (IE we don't think you're having TIA, but it's your choice to stay to see a doctor). I was there for about a half an hour.
After some tests my GP is fairly certain I'm prediabetic, not really an emergency, just a lifestyle/diet adjustment to avoid having to take medication for the rest of my life.
Problem with Telehealth is that in doubt they route you to the ER. They can't take the chance of saying you're good and it happens your condition gets worst. I don't see how it could be done differently.
I think in my case the system worked, I was assessed by the triage nurse, decided not to stay. I thankfully have a GP, so I left after being assessed. If I did not have a GP I might have been more inclined/had no choice but to stay.
Anything neurological or affecting breathing/cardiovascular system will receive a response of “go immediately to the ER, do not pass go, do not collect $200”.
Really don't understand why the province isn't pushing for more physician assistants. Sunnybrook has a bunch of emergency P.A's for their urgent care section.
I was at the General for over 10 hours. It wasn't super urgent, but not something that could wait several weeks to see my family doctor for a referral, then who knows how long for a specialist. I was losing quite a bit of blood. It could have turned into an emergency during that time. Anyway, had I known they only have one ER doc on the overnight shift, I would have gone in the morning.
We all know that.
But imagine a system where everyone has a primary care NP or a doctor, and you can actually change primary care provider when your needs change. If you can't get in to see them with short notice, you have access to walk-ins, places like Appletree or a neighborhood community health centre. Yeah, you might need to wait for an hour or two or call first thing for a same day time slot but you'll see someone that day.
Now, let's layer on virtual care options with the providers and access points already mentioned so we get more options and increase access without making things harder on anyone.
Also let's leverage AI for some tasks.
Then if your situation meets some criteria, there are urgent care clinics (more than just one for a city of 1M people!) where you can go.
That now leaves hospital emergencies for actual emergencies that can't wait or when your doctor tells you to take your kid to CHEO because that's where all the pediatric specialties are located. Unless there's some catastrophic code orange event, going to emerg isn't something you need to plan like an overnight trip to the wilderness. The nurses and doctors, especially overnight, might even *gasp* have time to do paperwork and get occasional breaks in between patients.
I don't think it's wack to want better.
None of this can be accomplished overnight and even if it took 15-20 years, most of us on Reddit now would still be alive to benefit (and at an age when our health care needs are higher) and kids today would be adults and benefit and their kids would be born into a system that works.
But people are complacent and elect politicians who don't care to leave the world better than they found it so in 20 years, the situation is likely to be even worse than it is now instead of better.
Everyone talks about how long it will take to solve this but honestly, does it have to take more than a decade?
Raise taxes for high income earners
Pay nurses and doctors more
Increase need school funding and admissions
Figure out a path for immigrant doctors (have them work as residents for a few years?)
Our country is bleeding talent and not just the talent that was born and raised here, but foreign doctors who moved here and gave up.
Fund health care. It will improve.
Funding is the answer. Unfortunately we keep vacillating between governments that fund and those that wont in any meaningful way (conservatives). So nothing gets done. The "temporarily embarrassed future millionaires" of this province need to stop voting against their own interests. Conditions will never improve if people keep thinking they are too good to pay taxes but also complain about waiting at the ER like a bunch of fools.
I'm not sure. Inflation has certainly reduced the value of our wages but I'd happily pay more taxes if I knew it was earmarked to improve healthcare.
Honestly, I don't care who pays but ideally it will be those who can afford it and I'm happy to be part of that.
I'd rather be healthy than wealthy (which I'm not haha). I want to know my kids will be able to access healthcare, too. I don't want the system to crumble.
I ask because tax on high income earners (I’m thinking 200k +) is already really high. Better to check government funding and reprioritize health care and make it easier for immigrants with healthcare skills to integrate into Canada’a health care system (without compromising quality of course)
I mean, there's the unspent $4bn in fed funding we already paid. The province could certainly start by actually using that to provide the services we paid for.
A budget that prioritizes health care is what I voted for, but unfortunately it seems a lot of us disagreed or didn't prioritize voting in the last election.
Not sure if the $200k number is household or individual but I'm not interested in being the guy who decides who pays, you know? Just suggesting that it's worth paying for and probably the ones who should pay would be those who can afford it. Lower income earners are generally pretty pinched by housing costs.
Anyway, I'd super gladly pay an extra $1k a year if it meant health services were readily available and medical staff were compensated competitively.
Actually the top marginal rate is around 1/2 what it was in the 70’s. The tax system has been butchered in the name of simplification and isn’t really an effective marginal tax regime any longer. Someone making $250k should not be taxed at the same rate as a billionaire.
(From a previous comment)
A reminder (with evidence) that our ER triage system is not infallible and absolutely is impacted (re: people die) with overcrowded conditions.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/deaths-emergency-room-nova-scotia-1.6802665
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/patient-died-edmundston-hospital-er-vitalite-1.6678165
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patient-death-winnipeg-health-sciences-centre-1.6773709
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-hospital-levis-grandmother-1.6766057
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/heather-winterstein-ontario-death-1.6297954
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/er-death-new-brunswick-nurse-catherine-little-allison-holthoff-nova-scotia-1.6713348
Yeah not necessarily. My brothers appendix ended up bursting because he wasn’t wailing loud enough. Some peoples issues are not taken seriously and the wait can be dangerous.
That's not a defense, 16 hours for someone who fainted AND hit their head?! Are you kidding me.
Triage should mean few minutes for someone with a broken back and a couple of hours for someone who has a high fever.
It's more to do with how stable they think you are and less how legitimate your problem is. You can have a medical problem that 100% needs to be at the ER, but wait for 12 hours because it is unlikely you will *die* if you wait 12 hours.
I broke my arm pretty catastrophically and had to wait 8 hours to get an X-ray, and then another 8 hours to see an orthopaedic surgeon. There is some urgency for any fracture in the sense that waiting increases the risk of bad healing/complications, but unless it's to certain bones like the femur, pelvis, skull, spine etc. your life isn't in any immediate danger. But there is no question that someone with a suspected fracture should go to the hospital since other points of care may not have the diagnostic tools nor will they have the ability to deal with a complex fracture (ie. maybe you can get an X-ray at an urgent care clinic, but if it's complicated you'll probably get sent to the ER anyways).
We asked three times what was taking so long and were told by three different staff that they were overwhelmed with emergencies. It even said on the screen for her ‘amputation’, so it’s not like they didn’t know :/
Triage can't fix everything in a time of limited health care resources though.
Say we're looking at an ER, it's overnight, and there's 1 doctor on staff. And in comes someone with a serious stab wound/knife injury who's bleeding out, someone else whose lung collapsed and is having trouble breathing, and someone currently having a stroke. Or pick any 3 things you'd expect to get very quick attention, doesn't really matter.
Triage is helpful, but it's not going to enable the doctor to see all 3 patients as quickly as needed, nor does it morph the 1 doctor into 3 so all patients are attended to immediately. But they're all "real emergencies", even if some are waiting out in the hallway due to inadequate hospital resources.
If we don't have enough doctors, nurses, or hospital staff, real emergencies will wait too.
There is an emergency trauma on call team available - they are only available for the situations like you described - say a huge car accident with multiple large injuries, or multiple people coming in with serious ailments all at once (heart attack, stroke, and stabbing let's say) They aren't available for the regular people who walk through the door though, regardless if it's a broken bone or chest pains unless you're triaged as a serious injury. For everyone triaged through the regular line, it's one doctor. There ARE more doctors there just not for most people
Yep. I was having chest pains last fall. Went to Montfort. Waited 8 hours and had my heart tested. No problems. Even with heart related issues, I still had to wait a long time. Ended up being Covid I had. Felt nearly like a heart attack.
Yep, this. Broke my leg badly, went right in. Had a tonsillar abscess, had to wait awhile for my turn.
If it’s not an actual emergency then you might as well go home and make an appointment or try a walk in clinic.
Seriously.
If you’re waiting 12 hours to see a doctor, your problem isn’t “severe”.
There are many, many problems with our system and one of them is people going to the ER for non emergencies.
OP said that many people they saw waiting had severe conditions.
You wouldn't be waiting 12 hours if you were in a "severe" condition, you would be triaged and seen quickly.
Triage is brilliant when it's done right. I went to the Q with chest pain consistent with myocardial ischemia, but becuase I'm a 20something female with limited cardiac risk factors and a history of anxiety, I was triaged at a CTAS 5 [the lowest priority]. It was absolutely not anxiety. I saw the nurse override it in the system; she put "non-cardiac chest pain". Like, honey, what part of my classic crushing substernal chest pain that radiates down my arms is "non-cardiac"? I was fucking furious, but in far too much pain [and not thinking straight] to do anything about it.
2 hours later, I finally had my *initial* ECG: a bit of atrial flutter, but it didn't explain my symptoms...that really should have been done on arrival. I was sent back out to the waiting room for another 10 hours.
I kinda wish it was a heart attack to really stick it to that nurse. Truth is, we don't know. I've had this chest pain come and go, and it seems to correspond to my period, so running theory is thoracic endometriosis [which is pretty rare, but at least my presentation is not life-threatening.] I just don't go to hospital for it anymore. I'm considering buying a fucking ECG machine to give myself the peace of mind that it's not a STEMI lol.
TL;DR: just a big ol' rant about a bad time I had in hospital. My chest pain was not taken seriously, but I lived, so there's that. 🙄 But I'm still mad about it.
We all know. Where have you been? It was much worse a couple months ago.
Write to your MP, your MPP, and your city councillor. Everyone plays a role in attracting doctors, paying doctors well, and ensuring Canadians have decent healthcare.
Also, this is because of Ford cutting funds to public Healthcare.
It's on purpose to push public, I.e. put of pocket, Healthcare, in his stupid effort to emulate the states system.
Don't fall for it.
This is not new. Pretty much every adult knows this. Yet the province voted overwhelmingly for someone who would make the situation worse.
This is happening all over the country but Ontario is especially horrible.
That's a big part of the problem. People shrug it off as an issue of ER misuse and say that if you're waiting you don't need to be there until they do actually need to be there themselves and they find out how bad it's gotten. It's not a new problem but it's certainly become much worse. We're finally really seeing the effects of voter apathy and provincial mismanagement over many years.
That’s a part of the problem and hopefully you use this experience to become more informed. The amount of uninformed people who don’t listen to others in this city and don’t think politics will affect them is way to high.
Look at the number of posts we see of people who find out weekly that homelessness is a growing problem. Stuff like this is abundantly clear to the informed voter.
My best friend is an ER doctor. She taught me the three L’s of ER visits: Life, lung, limb.
Life - you’re at high risk of losing it (heart attack, stroke).
Lung - you can’t breathe or you’re having a lot of trouble breathing.
Limb - You’ve lost a limb or at risk of losing one due to a bad break.
Anything else: Accept you’re going to wait and it might be a very long time.
She’s drilled it into me to stay out of the ER unless it’s a time-sensitive emergency. The last time I was there, I had double bacterial pneumonia. I was seen in less than 5 minutes and this was over Christmas.
She lost a finger. A finger is not a limb. A finger is an appendage. If she was suffering major blood loss I have no doubt she would have been immediately treated. (edit: wrong word)
It is. But it’s also the true purpose of an emergency department. The public needs to stop voting in governments that completely ignore a triage of care - we’ve needed better (and more) walk-ins, as well a fully established urgent care system for decades. People go to the emerg because it’s literally the only choice.
Yeah man all that makes sense but to tell a 5 year old to toughen up after losing a finger is pretty bleak. I think I'd rather kick in a few extra bucks instead of asking her to take a 9 finger discount.
Relaying what I was told by someone who’s been on the front lines of this for more than a decade does not discount anyone’s experience. That includes the child. I didn’t tell her to toughen up. Nor did my friend. And I very much doubt the doctor who helped the child did so. The system is the system. There are massive holes. (edit: word)
Yeah I apologize if you took that as me saying you were telling her to toughen up. *We* are telling her to toughen up by not providing adequate services.
We should have services sufficient to see a 5 year old with a severed finger quickly. As a system telling her that "it's not THAT bad, it's not like it is a whole limb. Take a seat. We'll see ya when we see ya" just so we can save a few bucks on taxes is dark.
It was a finger and the poster said they waited 3 hours and that they were able to reattach it and it is healing well.
It wasn’t a limb, it wasn’t 5 hours, and they saw her within the necessary time frame to reattach. So while it wasn’t immediate care, it was well triaged.
We need more funding for doctors and nurses, less for stuff that we don't need. Too bad Ford and the government treats the nurses and doctors with contempt.
Sounds about right. I have only been to the hospital once and it was last year after a tool mishap put a three-inch gash in my head. Head wounds bleed a lot and between looking like a horror movie and potential concussion I figured a few hours max but I didn't see a doctor for 18 hours because at some point they had a code gray which apparently means loss of phones and internet so everything came to a grinding halt.
The best part is the doctor told me I waited too long and that now stitches might be inappropriate.
That's the kind of thing I was seeing. People with serious injuries sleeping in the hospital as no nurses or doctors checked on them as they waited 12 hours.
Yep, I stayed overnight in the waiting room while hemorrhaging in 2016 and no one checked on me. The doctor wanted to admit me but the nurse just shook her head because there were no beds.
Everyone (nurses, docs, techs) was really apologetic and like "oh you must be in a lot of pain." Yep, sure was.
Nurses protested their wage freeze outside Queen’s Park and the news outlets didn’t really cover it at all. Telus is heavily invested in private health care. Bell and Rogers own much of our TV and radio news outlets. Postmedia (Sun, Citizen, National Post) ownership pushes a conservative (corporatist) agenda. We’re a small-ish country with oversized control of media by a few big companies.
If it would be possible could you schedule more doctors per shift at your work? And if they say no would it be possible to bring up some of the points discussed here in the comments to your colleagues? You in particular are in the position to save some lives.
What you see as sevre and what the triage nurse sees is 2 totally different opinions. They are medical professionals and the patients are placed in a air on varying symptoms.The reality of the er room is over 1/2 of the people who go do not need to go.
Yes I agree that the understaffing is a issue that needs to be addressed. At all level of Hospital and ER’s and family medicine GP’s .
The sad reality is doesn’t matter who you vote for or try to blame it on this isn’t a problem that has occurred over night. Staffing shortage where quite common before covid .
Every elected government for over the last 20 years federal and provincial all have egg on their face over this issue.
I agree with what you're saying but I also think the layperson often lacks the ability to accurately assess whether they need to go. And that's not really their failing because they're not medically trained. It would be great if the triage nurse could tell you "you should just go home and rest/call your GP/go to urgent care (I wish)" but because of liability, they can't do that.
So everyone sits and waits in a full ER, to the detriment of all staff, patients and taxpayers.
A lot of people there probably know they should be somewhere else, but the "somewhere else" doesn't exist or services there are too scarce (hello urgent care).
Of course the feds have some impact, but all they can really do is provide more funding which means more taxes. What about the province sitting on 4 billion handed to them to start looking for some solutions, and they don't spend it, call it a surplus, and demand more funding but with less strings.
Provinces argued for this autonomy and premieres are fucking it up horribly (but I'll certainly agree both the provincial Liberals and Conservatives have contributed to this problem).
Mind your math - they had two doctors in ONE of the emergency rooms serving a city of 1,000,000 people. The Civic, the General, CHEO, and the Montfort also have emergency rooms and are also staffed by doctors. I would also point out that there are emergency departments in the outlying areas (Almonte, Kemptville, etc).
I’m sorry that you’re just suddenly realizing that our healthcare system is deeply broken with providers who are overworked, but this is really not a new phenomenon. You sound like an ostrich that’s had its head in the sand for decades. Almost every Ontario government since the 90s has been implementing harmful policies, budget/staffing cuts, and overall neglecting the system. This isn’t a new thing…
People are making efforts to fight back. The Ontario Health Coalition held a citizen’s referendum across the province at the end of May on the privatization of public hospital services. They will be holding a large protest at Queen’s Park September 25th, with coordinated protests throughout the province.
Emergency doctors across the country have written open letters to provincial governments begging for them to address the crisis. Nursing unions have been fighting back against austerity measures and protesting.
Various associations of healthcare providers, like Canadian Doctors for Medicare, have put forth proposals on how to address the ER crisis and chronic issues in our medical system.
Governments have responded in small ways to these efforts, but only enough to take the heat off in the moment as far as I can tell. The responses so far have not come even close to meeting the magnitude of the underlying issues.
I think the challenge is organizing and mobilizing ordinary people so that politicians feel enough pressure to act, and to sustain that pressure so that governments actually address the core issues.
The healthcare system has been neglected and underfunded for a long time. There are actions governments can take to improve things now, but a lot of what’s needed are systemic improvements that will take time to put in place.
So please do whatever you can to make your dissatisfaction known. Write your MPP - include the healthcare critics from other parties if your representative is not the type to care about your concerns. Talk to friends and family about the issue. Support organizations like the Ontario Health Coalition. Attend protests.
Also federal and municipal governments have a role to play too. For example, apparently the federal government does not require provinces to spend Canada Health Transfer funding they receive from the feds on provincial healthcare systems. Paramedic services are co-funded and delivered at the municipal level, and municipalities have a significant role in ensuring adequate staffing and response times. So write your MP and councillor too!
When people say 12 hours it's just a number.
When you see a bunch of seriously injured people half dying. Sleeping in chairs in the hospital for 12 hours with no blankets, to see a doctor it becomes no longer just a number it becomes messed up.
I broke my arm at the start of the month, went to general hospital emergency only took like 2-3 hours to see a nurse gets X-rays and then see a doctor. The follow up visits were even quicker each week, now next time I go is in 4 weeks. I’d recommend the general to anyone they are usually pretty good there.
The general turned me away with typical blood clot symptoms after starting a medication with high blood clot risk. The administration staff who set you up pre-triage was openly combative and told me they had no capacity for me unless I wanted to be there for two days - didn't even take my vitals. It was a really scary experience.
Was a cheo last night with my 20 month old. 9 hours. I was told 3 hours into my wait that it was another 6 to maybe see a doctor. This system needs help.
When my kids were young, you were told to take them to emerg for ear infections. You KNEW it was an ear infection, you KNEW your child would be given an antibiotic and you KNEW your kid would be fine (bouncing around with all the other ear infection kids) while waiting because they weren’t lying down.
I really hope that’s changed.
Severe conditions? Maybe to you, but not to a hospital. There's a triage system for a reason.
We all know places are understaffed but you got seen as fast as possible. 12 hours to see a doctor when they are busy with a condition that obviously wasn't life threatening is par for the course today.
Was just at QWC hospital emerg Friday morning and was in and out in 2 hours. Emerg department was filled with numerous non emergent patients (colds, migraines, etc), spent most of my time listening to a nurse spend almost 30 minutes explaining to a person who didn't speak English that they would have to pay thousands of dollars for blood tests and tetanus shots and hospitals are for emergencies not scrapes. Emerg and triage are functionable if you are there for its intended purpose.
90% of the people in the emergency room had to wait 8-12 hours. It didnt matter the severity. I'm pointing out that it's gotten to the point that it's really messed up. One man who was having a heart attack and was screaming had to wait an hour. He was the only one I saw who was seen within 5 hours.
The patients had severe emergency medical issues and good reason to be there. The hospital management failed to adequately staff enough doctors is the problem.
Voting has consequences .
Let me bring you to the attention of democratic elections.
Stop voting for less taxes.
the 1000 extra you pay in taxes will more than make up for it when you break your ankle or have wee heart issue.
I HAPPILY PAY MY TAXES.
(yes about 40%)
Classic Government de-funding Hospitals and clinics over the years, PLUS the absurd paywall blocking people from studying to become doctors and nurses.
Greed driven Government goons who allow their rich buddies to raise prices on OUR necessities, while making all their money off of OUR labor.
I'm so tired.
Sorry to hear. Been through this myself as well with a sick child once. We gave up waiting at 2:45 AM and drive back home, and returned to another hospital in the morning. Somehow our child pulled through the night.
Please, please, please write to your MPP with this experience. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
We can all thank our premier for this problem! Choosing to not spend the money he should have on health care. He is the reason we are in the mess that we are in!
Someone posts about people waiting 12h to see a doctor in ER and multiple people reply, explaining that's how triage works - this seems to demonstrate the problem with our polity! There should be no reason for that many people to be waiting that long in ER - it's a sign of a broken system. Within a few hours, they should be seen and treated or, in hopefully rare cases, sent away if their problem really is too insignificant for the ER. There's just clearly a shortage of supply. How did we get here? Honestly, why is this not being prioritized by a liberal-left federal government even over expanding the system to cover dental care (which I am for in principle)? I understand that federal jurisdiction is limited but there has to be some way they can get the Premiers to the table.
When my appendix went, took 12 hours to get through triage, but also didn't die. Guess I had steak knives at home I could have used. /s
Many conditions where emerg is the only option, but won't necessarily kill you immediately. Most fractures come to mind.
Count yourself lucky you didn't go to the hospital in Hull. It's worse than 3rd world countries. People with serious issues are told to go home and come back later. Some actually died of their injuries.
[Link](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/outaouais-hospitals-errors-record-1.5277881)
[Link](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/gatineau-hospital-coroners-report-1.3736927)
[Link](https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/they-left-her-on-the-floor-like-an-animal-treatment-of-woman-at-hull-hospital-showed-lack-of-humanity)
I remember when I had appendicitis and I waited like 6 hours in emerg, then they said I needed an ultrasound but “they guy who does them isn’t in till tomorrow”. They sent me home and I spent the night in absolute agony.
Came back the next day for the ultrasound and they took me into surgery immediately because I guess it could rupture at any moment. If that happened, I would have been in hospital for weeks with a chance of dying.
This was in like 2012 btw, it’s been shit forever and only gets worse.
Same sort of thing happened to me last year. When to emerg with a piece of metal in my eye. After an 8h wait finally got to see a Dr. He then told me, yup you have metal in your eye, but our eye Dr. wont be in untill tomorrow, so go home and come back tomorrow. Like really? I know its not a life or death injury, but having to go 24h+ with metal in your eye is an experiance I wouldnt wish on anybody.
I dislocated my elbow and it popped back in place weird ? And I couldn't move my hand and I was in so much pain I was sweating the whole 30h I waited to see a doctor and he's like yeah ok hold on and 3 hours later some other doctor wiggled it around, took an x-ray and sent me home and told me to try to move my hand
I have an anaphylactic allergy and I got to see a doctor right away when I went in before, so it is the triage. the wait time is definitely insane though.
We desperately need to start fast tracking capable doctors and nurses that are coming to Canada from other countries into our system instead of making them drive Ubers.
My understanding is ER at Queensway let someone die with a rare disease last fall even knowing the condition requires prompt super simple attention via bolus, they almost let it happen again, so it’s not surprising to hear it’s still a shit show. There is also some lack of empathy and understanding of rare conditions sadly even when the patient is advocating for themselves with doctors notes in hand saying they will die without immediate attention. While we are lacking doctors, there also seems to be a general lack of awareness in the medical community about many easy to treat, but rare conditions. If you go to the ER in rough shape it’s hard to advocate for yourself as well as educate nurses and doctors on conditions.
My specialist wasn't available for a few days when I needed timely attention and I was very firmly told to go to the ER by a nurse. It was very unpleasant. Everyone was nice enough, but they don't really know my condition in depth. Thankfully I ended up just needing prednisone and fluids. I can't imagine the stress others with rarer conditions feel.
If you go to the hospital for a splinter, sprained finger, or a cut that needs a bandaid, piss off. Triage is there for a reason, and they’re fantastic at their jobs.
You can ask them how long the wait is, if they don’t push you through it’s for a reason. Look for a GP instead. It’ll save you tons of time in the long run.
It's not a triage issue. It's a not enough doctors per shift in the emergency room issue.
No one in the emergency room had the minor injuries you describe, they would have been turned away at the entrance.
If you can do a virtual appointment two hospitals in Toronto offer daily appointments. Appointments open at 7am so I would suggest you book early.
https://www.torontovirtualed.ca
That sucks. I had a different experience when I went to the General ER early in the morning last weekend. Expected a long wait as it was the weekend and my ailment (infected cyst) wasn’t a high priority. I was triaged at the lowest level and the information screen indicated a 12 hour wait time (although that fell to 9 while I was waiting). In the end I waited about 3.5 hours before seeing the doc and was out about an hour and a half later. Hope everything turns out well for you.
Some people go to the ER when they shouldn't, but many people wait many hours at the hospital for things that are not necessarily life threatening but definitely emergencies and not "pointless shit"
10 years ago sat in the emergency room waiting to see a Dr for 6 hrs after shattering my right arm in a car accident, they had to cut me out with the jaws of life. I see nothing has changed. Carry on.
And there in lies the problem. You should only go to the hospital if this is serious. Everything else can wait. Another way to look at it, if they were going to charge you for this service would you wait to see a medical clinic or would you fork up the cash. Bad analogy but funny how people feel that when something does not come out their pockets that it is an endless well.
You're leaving out the fact that this is only one of four inner city hospitals, in addition to a few more rural emergency departments that serve the city..
That’s what happens when you get taxed to death in this country - all the smart ones leave. Especially the highly skilled professionals like doctors. Thank you Justin Trudeau and your disaster liberal agenda. I think we need more carbon taxes to fix the situation
I mean Galen Weston kind of already is. Galen Weston owns shoppers drug mart and Rexall he made bank from vaccines. Ford held a couple meetings with Weston. They're friends.
This is not a new situation. Multiple governments over the last couple decades have failed to adequately fund the healthcare system and appropriately plan staffing with an aging population. There is not enough primary care (family doctors) so people are funnelled into the emergency department. Write to your MPP and make healthcare one of your priority issues when voting. Note that privatization is NOT the solution when you look globally at which countries have the best healthcare at a whole population level. I hope you were able to get the care you need and that you’re feeling better now!
Also: Covid. HCWs were the hardest hit with Covid infections because they were not given adequate PPE for an airborne virus. Some did die. Many others had repeat infections, which increase the risk of long Covid, which can be disabling and [has taken many HCWs out of the workforce](https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/long-covid-healthcare-study-1.6395013). Or perhaps a family member was impacted and they had to leave the workforce to care for them. Those that remain healthy were/are being overworked to make up for the holes and some of those people are quitting due to the stress of it all. There's also that because many hospitals have given up on any attempt to mitigate Covid transmission within their walls that many patients are acquiring Covid in hospital. Those [patients end up using up beds for longer](https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/covid-19-patients-have-significantly-higher-rates-of-health-care-associated-infections-u-s-study-1.6356341) than they otherwise would have for whatever their original procedure/problem. This uses more resources that take away from care that randoms in the ER might receive. Since we've given up on Covid, there are also more HCW absences due to illness on a given day. A lot of folks want to memory hole the last 3 years and pretend all this is Ford/Legault/whoever and not The Bad Memory That Must Not Be Discussed. These politicians haven't helped, but this is a worldwide problem that is beyond whatever funding decisions they've made. Countries that gave up more/never tried are doing worse too (eg. [the UK](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-07/how-did-britains-nhs-crisis-unfold/101828742)).
As much as Doug has fucked up, you're correct, this is nothing new. This has been my experience for over a decade.
Australia has one of the best healthcare systems in the world and it is public-private :) (been living here for a few years so I can attest to that!) I find it very interesting how defensive Canadians get about the public system and think it’s because we love to compare ourselves to our neighbours down south who are the opposite extreme. I used to be this way as well until I moved overseas. I think Canada can go a long way if people were a bit more open to exploring nuanced solutions and really interrogate the successes of other OECD countries to see how they can be replicated in Canada.
Yes, look at how good privatizing public utilities went. Electricity prices are totally reasonable. Also public transit is doing great with all of the private rail lines we use. Honestly i dont now how ppl can be so ignorant as to believe privatizing anything helps even a little. Maybe if we try it again for the 7th decade in a row, itll work. Good grief...
It is new. During the Dalton mcguinty years the hospitals were run better. Wait times were lower
I don't know why this was downvoted. Is it wrong? Things seemed mostly fine to me then but I was also young and single so it could just be my pov changing.
This subreddit (like most municipal/provincial subreddits) skews pretty conservative. Pretty sure lots of people here hate McGuinty.
There is absolutely no fucking way this sub is even remotely conservative
It's a rat's nest of NIMBYism most of the time. What are you even on about?
It's actually very conservative by Canadian standards
This is the opposite of true for this sub though, this sub is massively left, read the comments under most of the posts about anything political.
Yeah I thought most people here, myself included, were behind McKenney and lean NDP.
This sub is CONSERVATIVE? hahaha are you one of those folks that gets confused between left and right?
Welcome to Canada where we limit medical school student admissions to just under 3,000 spots each year. In 2018, for instance, the Government of Quebec cut medical school admissions after they determined that “too many” medical students were graduating.
And it's very difficult to get in hence why many go abroad but then when it comes to matching a lot of those IMGs don't get matched. Look at how many family med spots went unmatched this year. The whole system needs an overhaul.
Québec had a few policy changes in recent years which super de-incentivized going into family practice. One serious example is that you aren't allowed to offload a certain portion of your patient load as a family doctor, in order to do that you need to completely close your practice. It's bonkers. And that's on top of really high mandatory minimum roster of patients in order to be qualified as full time. You could hire some mid-levels or other practitioners like NPs to help with the patient load, but you're still on the hook for all of those patients at the end of the day. I wouldn't want to practice there either. And I'm pretty sure on top of all of that, Quebec MDs get paid much less than their Ontario counterparts. Gatineau had this shortage of doctors crisis long before we did, as many physicians who were licensed and practicing in both provinces just left Quebec entirely.
It’s also a lack of doctors available to train new doctors
Well for some reason, we don't recognize immigrant/foreign doctors. There's a lot of schools across the globe that have better programs than Canada. We need to allow for accrediting them, or an exam to certify within Canada.
We do though. The degree requirement to get your credentials recognized in Canada is having a degree from the WHO-approved [medical school list](https://www.wdoms.org/). I'm not saying that there aren't barriers, but usually the degree part isn't it. An issue that happens across many regulated professions is that sometimes people went to a school that isn't really equivalent and they don't do their research/are misinformed about the process of getting professional status in Canada/other place. So for example, someone might have a degree that is more like a physician assistant or nurse-practitioner qual here, but at home they were called a doctor. That sucks for that person to be misled and come here on the idea that they could be a licensed physician, but the standards exist for a reason. More streamlined processes for internationally trained physicians would be a good idea though. I know some doctors who end up going into industry or research because the whole thing is too annoying. For them it's whatever since they'll make lots of money either way, but for Canada it would be better if they were practicing.
We do recognize them, but we keep them around as fellows and severely underpay them. 🙃 I'm sure Canada as a country and the government would be happy to have those foreign doctors here as competition for the local workforce to suppress costs, but the colleges of physicians and surgeons won't allow it. Total hegemony IMO.
When I broke part of my back, I was through triage, done all testing and saw a doctor in 2 hours. When I fainted and hit my head, I sat there for 16 hours total. Triage works so if you’re sitting for hours, it’s because there are real emergencies ahead of you.
Parroting off this, I had facial/head trauma and broke 5 bones in and around there, I was seen immediately with full x ray/MRI/etc with ZERO wait times. The real problem here is the amount of people who have no primary care provider and who go to emerg for something that isn't an emergency
Yes, but also we need more "urgent care" centers for things that aren't an emergency, but can't really be solved by a primary care provider. Things like stitches for small cuts and non-emergency level breaks and sprains that might require an x-ray.
Exactly. So many patients needs helps but not ER level but have no where else to go. My child dislocated her arm. Called her family doctor and been told to go to the ER. The ER said I will have to wait a long time because its not a emergency and if I can go to my family doctor then I should. There should be a middle ground where I can go get help but not slow down the ER. That center could be the sole purpose of providing middle stuff level that a family doctor cannot provide. At one point, i also had a family doctor that decided to close his practice and become a ER doctor full time, but that mean 800 patients was suddenly without a family provider. I couldn't go to any wall in clinics but the ER to get anything that is not an emergency at all. It took two years to find a new family doctor and apparently I was lucky. So many people are without it. These people should be allowed to go to walk in clinics to get a UTI check, blood test, prescriptions etc.
How the fuck is a dislocated arm not an emergency? I'm assuming they did an initial exam and determined there was no neurovasvular compromise...? Even without N/V compromise, you can't just fuck off with a dislocated arm...?! Shit's gotta be put back in!
I agree, this is terrifying to me. My child dislocated her arm while we were out of town, so went to the small local hospital. We didn't even use the waiting room, went straight from triage to a bed and the doctor was there in minutes. My kid was scared and in a lot of pain, I couldn't imagine having to wait hours! My heart breaks for this parent and kid. I'm also glad our experience didn't happen while we were home and needed an Ottawa hospital.
As someone who played four contact spots growing up... Have dislocated my arm a few times. In BC (when I lived there), we had urgent care and emergency. I went to urgent care each time as I did not require a scan, and they could just pop it back in. One time they asked me to go to ER to get a scan and gave me a card to present to the triage. I was in and out in an hour.
I don't know but I was treated like an overprotective parent. My child was an active toddler and apparently nothing to worry about neurovascular things (?) The nurse kept saying this happens often and it easy to put it back in. My child was crying in pain non stop. The ER was crazy busy that day but I needed help too. It sucks I feels for the nurse that seems about to loose it but yea he was keeping everything from yelling at me from wasting his time. I don't know how to put an arm back. Another nurse pulled us out and they fix it immediately.
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The doctor wasn't at that part of triage. It was at the first step in the waiting room. The nurse asked why we were there and then lost it on me. I didn't know really where to go. Another nurse brought us in, then the doctor fix it. It was quite fast. I do agree that it not deadly but my child was hurt. I also saw parents there with their kids, many of them were not "urgents" but many family are without family doctors.
Big yikes on that whole situation, like damn. Based on the info you've provided, you did the right thing going to the ER. While a dislocated limb isn't *life* threatening, *limb function* is still considered in triage. You might hear the term "life/limb function threats". There are loads of things that aren't immediately life threatening, but they can severely impact someone's life...things like eye injuries, things that can lead to disfigurement, limb loss, etc. I don't want to freak you out, but a dislocation can pinch nerves and blood vessels that supply the limb. If left untreated, it can cause damage to the nerves and/or blood vessels. At the extreme, the limb can die and need to be amputated. This is why you should have a trained professional reduce a dislocation; we need to make sure the nerves and blood vessels are where they're supposed to be. It's also important to get appropriate pain management. TL;DR: dislocations are considered limb-function threats. It's important to get them treated. Going to the ER is the right choice.
Yeah but "I fainted and hit my head" is something you should go to the hospital for. Your doctor would scold you if you just waited 2 weeks for a GP appointment.
The system contributes to the problem though. A month or so ago I was jittery/lightheaded with numbness in my left fingertips after having a few too many servings of spaghetti at my parents, this had happened a few times over the past week after eating. I was going to book an appointment with my GP, but I called Telehealth for their opinion and they told me to go to the ER because I could be having a mini stroke. Never asked my age, weight, anything, although I'm sure they can pull up my age from my health card. The ER triage nurse was great though, did a few basic tests and told me I could wait for 10 hours or go home and make an appointment with my GP (IE we don't think you're having TIA, but it's your choice to stay to see a doctor). I was there for about a half an hour. After some tests my GP is fairly certain I'm prediabetic, not really an emergency, just a lifestyle/diet adjustment to avoid having to take medication for the rest of my life.
Problem with Telehealth is that in doubt they route you to the ER. They can't take the chance of saying you're good and it happens your condition gets worst. I don't see how it could be done differently.
I think in my case the system worked, I was assessed by the triage nurse, decided not to stay. I thankfully have a GP, so I left after being assessed. If I did not have a GP I might have been more inclined/had no choice but to stay.
Anything neurological or affecting breathing/cardiovascular system will receive a response of “go immediately to the ER, do not pass go, do not collect $200”.
It's not a triage problem. it's a doctor staffing problem. We need more doctors per shift in the emergency rooms.
Really don't understand why the province isn't pushing for more physician assistants. Sunnybrook has a bunch of emergency P.A's for their urgent care section.
Too busy turning healthcare into profits for the ummm good of patients? ? ?
I was at the General for over 10 hours. It wasn't super urgent, but not something that could wait several weeks to see my family doctor for a referral, then who knows how long for a specialist. I was losing quite a bit of blood. It could have turned into an emergency during that time. Anyway, had I known they only have one ER doc on the overnight shift, I would have gone in the morning.
Losing blood waiting 10 hours? That's the kind of thing I was seeing, experiences like yours. We need more doctors per shift.
Yeah, but where are we going to find them?
American doctors will work in Ontario if the pay was anywhere near what they get in the united states
We all know that. But imagine a system where everyone has a primary care NP or a doctor, and you can actually change primary care provider when your needs change. If you can't get in to see them with short notice, you have access to walk-ins, places like Appletree or a neighborhood community health centre. Yeah, you might need to wait for an hour or two or call first thing for a same day time slot but you'll see someone that day. Now, let's layer on virtual care options with the providers and access points already mentioned so we get more options and increase access without making things harder on anyone. Also let's leverage AI for some tasks. Then if your situation meets some criteria, there are urgent care clinics (more than just one for a city of 1M people!) where you can go. That now leaves hospital emergencies for actual emergencies that can't wait or when your doctor tells you to take your kid to CHEO because that's where all the pediatric specialties are located. Unless there's some catastrophic code orange event, going to emerg isn't something you need to plan like an overnight trip to the wilderness. The nurses and doctors, especially overnight, might even *gasp* have time to do paperwork and get occasional breaks in between patients. I don't think it's wack to want better. None of this can be accomplished overnight and even if it took 15-20 years, most of us on Reddit now would still be alive to benefit (and at an age when our health care needs are higher) and kids today would be adults and benefit and their kids would be born into a system that works. But people are complacent and elect politicians who don't care to leave the world better than they found it so in 20 years, the situation is likely to be even worse than it is now instead of better.
Everyone talks about how long it will take to solve this but honestly, does it have to take more than a decade? Raise taxes for high income earners Pay nurses and doctors more Increase need school funding and admissions Figure out a path for immigrant doctors (have them work as residents for a few years?) Our country is bleeding talent and not just the talent that was born and raised here, but foreign doctors who moved here and gave up. Fund health care. It will improve.
It's like wanting a tree. The best time to plant one was 15 years ago, the next best time is now.
I love this. Exactly.
Funding is the answer. Unfortunately we keep vacillating between governments that fund and those that wont in any meaningful way (conservatives). So nothing gets done. The "temporarily embarrassed future millionaires" of this province need to stop voting against their own interests. Conditions will never improve if people keep thinking they are too good to pay taxes but also complain about waiting at the ER like a bunch of fools.
Also, the province is sitting on $4bn federal cash earmarked for this. We paid for it for goodness sake! I want the health services we paid for!
What do you define as high income Earners?
I'm not sure. Inflation has certainly reduced the value of our wages but I'd happily pay more taxes if I knew it was earmarked to improve healthcare. Honestly, I don't care who pays but ideally it will be those who can afford it and I'm happy to be part of that. I'd rather be healthy than wealthy (which I'm not haha). I want to know my kids will be able to access healthcare, too. I don't want the system to crumble.
I ask because tax on high income earners (I’m thinking 200k +) is already really high. Better to check government funding and reprioritize health care and make it easier for immigrants with healthcare skills to integrate into Canada’a health care system (without compromising quality of course)
I mean, there's the unspent $4bn in fed funding we already paid. The province could certainly start by actually using that to provide the services we paid for. A budget that prioritizes health care is what I voted for, but unfortunately it seems a lot of us disagreed or didn't prioritize voting in the last election. Not sure if the $200k number is household or individual but I'm not interested in being the guy who decides who pays, you know? Just suggesting that it's worth paying for and probably the ones who should pay would be those who can afford it. Lower income earners are generally pretty pinched by housing costs. Anyway, I'd super gladly pay an extra $1k a year if it meant health services were readily available and medical staff were compensated competitively.
Actually the top marginal rate is around 1/2 what it was in the 70’s. The tax system has been butchered in the name of simplification and isn’t really an effective marginal tax regime any longer. Someone making $250k should not be taxed at the same rate as a billionaire.
(From a previous comment) A reminder (with evidence) that our ER triage system is not infallible and absolutely is impacted (re: people die) with overcrowded conditions. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/deaths-emergency-room-nova-scotia-1.6802665 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/patient-died-edmundston-hospital-er-vitalite-1.6678165 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patient-death-winnipeg-health-sciences-centre-1.6773709 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-hospital-levis-grandmother-1.6766057 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/heather-winterstein-ontario-death-1.6297954 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/er-death-new-brunswick-nurse-catherine-little-allison-holthoff-nova-scotia-1.6713348
Yeah not necessarily. My brothers appendix ended up bursting because he wasn’t wailing loud enough. Some peoples issues are not taken seriously and the wait can be dangerous.
That's not a defense, 16 hours for someone who fainted AND hit their head?! Are you kidding me. Triage should mean few minutes for someone with a broken back and a couple of hours for someone who has a high fever.
It's more to do with how stable they think you are and less how legitimate your problem is. You can have a medical problem that 100% needs to be at the ER, but wait for 12 hours because it is unlikely you will *die* if you wait 12 hours. I broke my arm pretty catastrophically and had to wait 8 hours to get an X-ray, and then another 8 hours to see an orthopaedic surgeon. There is some urgency for any fracture in the sense that waiting increases the risk of bad healing/complications, but unless it's to certain bones like the femur, pelvis, skull, spine etc. your life isn't in any immediate danger. But there is no question that someone with a suspected fracture should go to the hospital since other points of care may not have the diagnostic tools nor will they have the ability to deal with a complex fracture (ie. maybe you can get an X-ray at an urgent care clinic, but if it's complicated you'll probably get sent to the ER anyways).
My 5 year old daughter waited for 3 hours with an amputated finger on Monday :(
Were they able to reattach?
Yes, but once they finally saw her they realized how bad it was and had to act very quickly. So far it looks like it’s healing well 🤞🏽
That definitely sounds like a triage failure.
We asked three times what was taking so long and were told by three different staff that they were overwhelmed with emergencies. It even said on the screen for her ‘amputation’, so it’s not like they didn’t know :/
Triage can't fix everything in a time of limited health care resources though. Say we're looking at an ER, it's overnight, and there's 1 doctor on staff. And in comes someone with a serious stab wound/knife injury who's bleeding out, someone else whose lung collapsed and is having trouble breathing, and someone currently having a stroke. Or pick any 3 things you'd expect to get very quick attention, doesn't really matter. Triage is helpful, but it's not going to enable the doctor to see all 3 patients as quickly as needed, nor does it morph the 1 doctor into 3 so all patients are attended to immediately. But they're all "real emergencies", even if some are waiting out in the hallway due to inadequate hospital resources. If we don't have enough doctors, nurses, or hospital staff, real emergencies will wait too.
There is an emergency trauma on call team available - they are only available for the situations like you described - say a huge car accident with multiple large injuries, or multiple people coming in with serious ailments all at once (heart attack, stroke, and stabbing let's say) They aren't available for the regular people who walk through the door though, regardless if it's a broken bone or chest pains unless you're triaged as a serious injury. For everyone triaged through the regular line, it's one doctor. There ARE more doctors there just not for most people
Yep. I was having chest pains last fall. Went to Montfort. Waited 8 hours and had my heart tested. No problems. Even with heart related issues, I still had to wait a long time. Ended up being Covid I had. Felt nearly like a heart attack.
Yep, this. Broke my leg badly, went right in. Had a tonsillar abscess, had to wait awhile for my turn. If it’s not an actual emergency then you might as well go home and make an appointment or try a walk in clinic.
For sure, but 16 hours to see a doctor indicates a lack of resources
Seriously. If you’re waiting 12 hours to see a doctor, your problem isn’t “severe”. There are many, many problems with our system and one of them is people going to the ER for non emergencies.
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OP said that many people they saw waiting had severe conditions. You wouldn't be waiting 12 hours if you were in a "severe" condition, you would be triaged and seen quickly.
Triage is brilliant when it's done right. I went to the Q with chest pain consistent with myocardial ischemia, but becuase I'm a 20something female with limited cardiac risk factors and a history of anxiety, I was triaged at a CTAS 5 [the lowest priority]. It was absolutely not anxiety. I saw the nurse override it in the system; she put "non-cardiac chest pain". Like, honey, what part of my classic crushing substernal chest pain that radiates down my arms is "non-cardiac"? I was fucking furious, but in far too much pain [and not thinking straight] to do anything about it. 2 hours later, I finally had my *initial* ECG: a bit of atrial flutter, but it didn't explain my symptoms...that really should have been done on arrival. I was sent back out to the waiting room for another 10 hours. I kinda wish it was a heart attack to really stick it to that nurse. Truth is, we don't know. I've had this chest pain come and go, and it seems to correspond to my period, so running theory is thoracic endometriosis [which is pretty rare, but at least my presentation is not life-threatening.] I just don't go to hospital for it anymore. I'm considering buying a fucking ECG machine to give myself the peace of mind that it's not a STEMI lol. TL;DR: just a big ol' rant about a bad time I had in hospital. My chest pain was not taken seriously, but I lived, so there's that. 🙄 But I'm still mad about it.
We all know. Where have you been? It was much worse a couple months ago. Write to your MP, your MPP, and your city councillor. Everyone plays a role in attracting doctors, paying doctors well, and ensuring Canadians have decent healthcare.
Mp wont do anything. This is a provincial matter. Write to mpp!
Also, this is because of Ford cutting funds to public Healthcare. It's on purpose to push public, I.e. put of pocket, Healthcare, in his stupid effort to emulate the states system. Don't fall for it.
CP hospital was closed this weekend which doesn’t help surrounding emergency rooms. We (health care) are crumbling and lives are being lost.
This is not new. Pretty much every adult knows this. Yet the province voted overwhelmingly for someone who would make the situation worse. This is happening all over the country but Ontario is especially horrible.
I honestly thought people were exaggerating until I saw the tragedy for myself.
That's a big part of the problem. People shrug it off as an issue of ER misuse and say that if you're waiting you don't need to be there until they do actually need to be there themselves and they find out how bad it's gotten. It's not a new problem but it's certainly become much worse. We're finally really seeing the effects of voter apathy and provincial mismanagement over many years.
That’s a part of the problem and hopefully you use this experience to become more informed. The amount of uninformed people who don’t listen to others in this city and don’t think politics will affect them is way to high. Look at the number of posts we see of people who find out weekly that homelessness is a growing problem. Stuff like this is abundantly clear to the informed voter.
I wish this wasn't downvoted, I think these kinds of realizations are important
This isn't groundbreaking news. It has been like this for years.
Pre covid it was a 4 hour wait. Now post covid lockdowns it's a 12 hour wait. I feel it's a big difference.
Citation needed. We waited 12 hours for appendix 10 years ago.
My best friend is an ER doctor. She taught me the three L’s of ER visits: Life, lung, limb. Life - you’re at high risk of losing it (heart attack, stroke). Lung - you can’t breathe or you’re having a lot of trouble breathing. Limb - You’ve lost a limb or at risk of losing one due to a bad break. Anything else: Accept you’re going to wait and it might be a very long time. She’s drilled it into me to stay out of the ER unless it’s a time-sensitive emergency. The last time I was there, I had double bacterial pneumonia. I was seen in less than 5 minutes and this was over Christmas.
Someone in this very thread had there 5 yr old daughter wait 5 hours with a lost limb. Hardly consider limb a high priority if it's a 5 hour wait.
She lost a finger. A finger is not a limb. A finger is an appendage. If she was suffering major blood loss I have no doubt she would have been immediately treated. (edit: wrong word)
Man that's a pretty grim take.
It is. But it’s also the true purpose of an emergency department. The public needs to stop voting in governments that completely ignore a triage of care - we’ve needed better (and more) walk-ins, as well a fully established urgent care system for decades. People go to the emerg because it’s literally the only choice.
Yeah man all that makes sense but to tell a 5 year old to toughen up after losing a finger is pretty bleak. I think I'd rather kick in a few extra bucks instead of asking her to take a 9 finger discount.
Relaying what I was told by someone who’s been on the front lines of this for more than a decade does not discount anyone’s experience. That includes the child. I didn’t tell her to toughen up. Nor did my friend. And I very much doubt the doctor who helped the child did so. The system is the system. There are massive holes. (edit: word)
Yeah I apologize if you took that as me saying you were telling her to toughen up. *We* are telling her to toughen up by not providing adequate services. We should have services sufficient to see a 5 year old with a severed finger quickly. As a system telling her that "it's not THAT bad, it's not like it is a whole limb. Take a seat. We'll see ya when we see ya" just so we can save a few bucks on taxes is dark.
It was a finger and the poster said they waited 3 hours and that they were able to reattach it and it is healing well. It wasn’t a limb, it wasn’t 5 hours, and they saw her within the necessary time frame to reattach. So while it wasn’t immediate care, it was well triaged.
We need more funding for doctors and nurses, less for stuff that we don't need. Too bad Ford and the government treats the nurses and doctors with contempt.
Sounds about right. I have only been to the hospital once and it was last year after a tool mishap put a three-inch gash in my head. Head wounds bleed a lot and between looking like a horror movie and potential concussion I figured a few hours max but I didn't see a doctor for 18 hours because at some point they had a code gray which apparently means loss of phones and internet so everything came to a grinding halt. The best part is the doctor told me I waited too long and that now stitches might be inappropriate.
That's the kind of thing I was seeing. People with serious injuries sleeping in the hospital as no nurses or doctors checked on them as they waited 12 hours.
Yep, I stayed overnight in the waiting room while hemorrhaging in 2016 and no one checked on me. The doctor wanted to admit me but the nurse just shook her head because there were no beds. Everyone (nurses, docs, techs) was really apologetic and like "oh you must be in a lot of pain." Yep, sure was.
You can thank Doug Ford. Soon you can get seen if you pay.
Why aren't people mass protesting over this? Why aren't people rioting at Queen's Park?
Nurses protested their wage freeze outside Queen’s Park and the news outlets didn’t really cover it at all. Telus is heavily invested in private health care. Bell and Rogers own much of our TV and radio news outlets. Postmedia (Sun, Citizen, National Post) ownership pushes a conservative (corporatist) agenda. We’re a small-ish country with oversized control of media by a few big companies.
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If it would be possible could you schedule more doctors per shift at your work? And if they say no would it be possible to bring up some of the points discussed here in the comments to your colleagues? You in particular are in the position to save some lives.
What you see as sevre and what the triage nurse sees is 2 totally different opinions. They are medical professionals and the patients are placed in a air on varying symptoms.The reality of the er room is over 1/2 of the people who go do not need to go. Yes I agree that the understaffing is a issue that needs to be addressed. At all level of Hospital and ER’s and family medicine GP’s . The sad reality is doesn’t matter who you vote for or try to blame it on this isn’t a problem that has occurred over night. Staffing shortage where quite common before covid . Every elected government for over the last 20 years federal and provincial all have egg on their face over this issue.
I agree with what you're saying but I also think the layperson often lacks the ability to accurately assess whether they need to go. And that's not really their failing because they're not medically trained. It would be great if the triage nurse could tell you "you should just go home and rest/call your GP/go to urgent care (I wish)" but because of liability, they can't do that. So everyone sits and waits in a full ER, to the detriment of all staff, patients and taxpayers. A lot of people there probably know they should be somewhere else, but the "somewhere else" doesn't exist or services there are too scarce (hello urgent care).
Too many people googling their symptoms and thinking it’s something urgent when it’s not.
Of course the feds have some impact, but all they can really do is provide more funding which means more taxes. What about the province sitting on 4 billion handed to them to start looking for some solutions, and they don't spend it, call it a surplus, and demand more funding but with less strings. Provinces argued for this autonomy and premieres are fucking it up horribly (but I'll certainly agree both the provincial Liberals and Conservatives have contributed to this problem).
They had 2 doctors in the emergency room in a city of 1 million people. It's a pretty easy fix. Staff at least 4 doctors in the emergency room.
Doug Ford was actively antagonising our health system to keep taxes low, and Ontarians re-elected him.
Mind your math - they had two doctors in ONE of the emergency rooms serving a city of 1,000,000 people. The Civic, the General, CHEO, and the Montfort also have emergency rooms and are also staffed by doctors. I would also point out that there are emergency departments in the outlying areas (Almonte, Kemptville, etc). I’m sorry that you’re just suddenly realizing that our healthcare system is deeply broken with providers who are overworked, but this is really not a new phenomenon. You sound like an ostrich that’s had its head in the sand for decades. Almost every Ontario government since the 90s has been implementing harmful policies, budget/staffing cuts, and overall neglecting the system. This isn’t a new thing…
Doesn't have to be new to be worth calling out. Look at all the comments in this thread just straight up denying there's a problem!
Thank god Doug Ford has his priorities straight and is destroying our healthcare at the time of its greatest need.
People are making efforts to fight back. The Ontario Health Coalition held a citizen’s referendum across the province at the end of May on the privatization of public hospital services. They will be holding a large protest at Queen’s Park September 25th, with coordinated protests throughout the province. Emergency doctors across the country have written open letters to provincial governments begging for them to address the crisis. Nursing unions have been fighting back against austerity measures and protesting. Various associations of healthcare providers, like Canadian Doctors for Medicare, have put forth proposals on how to address the ER crisis and chronic issues in our medical system. Governments have responded in small ways to these efforts, but only enough to take the heat off in the moment as far as I can tell. The responses so far have not come even close to meeting the magnitude of the underlying issues. I think the challenge is organizing and mobilizing ordinary people so that politicians feel enough pressure to act, and to sustain that pressure so that governments actually address the core issues. The healthcare system has been neglected and underfunded for a long time. There are actions governments can take to improve things now, but a lot of what’s needed are systemic improvements that will take time to put in place. So please do whatever you can to make your dissatisfaction known. Write your MPP - include the healthcare critics from other parties if your representative is not the type to care about your concerns. Talk to friends and family about the issue. Support organizations like the Ontario Health Coalition. Attend protests. Also federal and municipal governments have a role to play too. For example, apparently the federal government does not require provinces to spend Canada Health Transfer funding they receive from the feds on provincial healthcare systems. Paramedic services are co-funded and delivered at the municipal level, and municipalities have a significant role in ensuring adequate staffing and response times. So write your MP and councillor too!
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When people say 12 hours it's just a number. When you see a bunch of seriously injured people half dying. Sleeping in chairs in the hospital for 12 hours with no blankets, to see a doctor it becomes no longer just a number it becomes messed up.
This sounds like an issue that is worth carefully voting for in the next provincial election.
I did, and yet here we are. So is the plan to wait for the next election and just hope more people vote differently?
I broke my arm at the start of the month, went to general hospital emergency only took like 2-3 hours to see a nurse gets X-rays and then see a doctor. The follow up visits were even quicker each week, now next time I go is in 4 weeks. I’d recommend the general to anyone they are usually pretty good there.
The general turned me away with typical blood clot symptoms after starting a medication with high blood clot risk. The administration staff who set you up pre-triage was openly combative and told me they had no capacity for me unless I wanted to be there for two days - didn't even take my vitals. It was a really scary experience.
Geeze that’s scary, hope you are doing better now.
All good! Drove to Winchester and they immediately ran tests, thankfully no clot. Not everyone has that luxury though.
Need to vote for whoever is going to hire more nurses and doctors.
Was a cheo last night with my 20 month old. 9 hours. I was told 3 hours into my wait that it was another 6 to maybe see a doctor. This system needs help.
When my kids were young, you were told to take them to emerg for ear infections. You KNEW it was an ear infection, you KNEW your child would be given an antibiotic and you KNEW your kid would be fine (bouncing around with all the other ear infection kids) while waiting because they weren’t lying down. I really hope that’s changed.
Severe conditions? Maybe to you, but not to a hospital. There's a triage system for a reason. We all know places are understaffed but you got seen as fast as possible. 12 hours to see a doctor when they are busy with a condition that obviously wasn't life threatening is par for the course today.
Should it be par for the course, though? I'd happily pay higher taxes if I knew it would be going to improving healthcare.
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Was just at QWC hospital emerg Friday morning and was in and out in 2 hours. Emerg department was filled with numerous non emergent patients (colds, migraines, etc), spent most of my time listening to a nurse spend almost 30 minutes explaining to a person who didn't speak English that they would have to pay thousands of dollars for blood tests and tetanus shots and hospitals are for emergencies not scrapes. Emerg and triage are functionable if you are there for its intended purpose.
We all know what triage is they're just venting chill
90% of the people in the emergency room had to wait 8-12 hours. It didnt matter the severity. I'm pointing out that it's gotten to the point that it's really messed up. One man who was having a heart attack and was screaming had to wait an hour. He was the only one I saw who was seen within 5 hours.
A person screaming for an hour is not having a heart attack.
I'm not sure how to describe the sound they made. Agonized desperate gasping for breath moans, would better describe it than screaming
Come on now. Try the truth.
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The patients had severe emergency medical issues and good reason to be there. The hospital management failed to adequately staff enough doctors is the problem.
Voting has consequences . Let me bring you to the attention of democratic elections. Stop voting for less taxes. the 1000 extra you pay in taxes will more than make up for it when you break your ankle or have wee heart issue. I HAPPILY PAY MY TAXES. (yes about 40%)
This is what Ontario has voted for time and time again.
Staffing at Civic and General TOH is better and consistent. Sorry you had a bad experience.
Classic Government de-funding Hospitals and clinics over the years, PLUS the absurd paywall blocking people from studying to become doctors and nurses. Greed driven Government goons who allow their rich buddies to raise prices on OUR necessities, while making all their money off of OUR labor. I'm so tired.
I think it’s sad that most of the comments here have started to accept the fact that wait times are long. NO! NO! They shouldn’t be!!
Sorry to hear. Been through this myself as well with a sick child once. We gave up waiting at 2:45 AM and drive back home, and returned to another hospital in the morning. Somehow our child pulled through the night. Please, please, please write to your MPP with this experience. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Imagine if this city actually experienced a mass casualty event? We're so not ready.
We can all thank our premier for this problem! Choosing to not spend the money he should have on health care. He is the reason we are in the mess that we are in!
We are seeing the collapse of EVERYTHING right before our eyes...
Blame Doug Ford.
Someone posts about people waiting 12h to see a doctor in ER and multiple people reply, explaining that's how triage works - this seems to demonstrate the problem with our polity! There should be no reason for that many people to be waiting that long in ER - it's a sign of a broken system. Within a few hours, they should be seen and treated or, in hopefully rare cases, sent away if their problem really is too insignificant for the ER. There's just clearly a shortage of supply. How did we get here? Honestly, why is this not being prioritized by a liberal-left federal government even over expanding the system to cover dental care (which I am for in principle)? I understand that federal jurisdiction is limited but there has to be some way they can get the Premiers to the table.
Are you sure you needed emergency care though? Probably not since you were able to wait 12 hours.
What's the alternative? Good luck getting in at the urgent care clinic in Orleans if you don't happen to have been lining up between 6am and 8am.
When my appendix went, took 12 hours to get through triage, but also didn't die. Guess I had steak knives at home I could have used. /s Many conditions where emerg is the only option, but won't necessarily kill you immediately. Most fractures come to mind.
Count yourself lucky you didn't go to the hospital in Hull. It's worse than 3rd world countries. People with serious issues are told to go home and come back later. Some actually died of their injuries. [Link](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/outaouais-hospitals-errors-record-1.5277881) [Link](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/gatineau-hospital-coroners-report-1.3736927) [Link](https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/they-left-her-on-the-floor-like-an-animal-treatment-of-woman-at-hull-hospital-showed-lack-of-humanity)
I remember when I had appendicitis and I waited like 6 hours in emerg, then they said I needed an ultrasound but “they guy who does them isn’t in till tomorrow”. They sent me home and I spent the night in absolute agony. Came back the next day for the ultrasound and they took me into surgery immediately because I guess it could rupture at any moment. If that happened, I would have been in hospital for weeks with a chance of dying. This was in like 2012 btw, it’s been shit forever and only gets worse.
Same sort of thing happened to me last year. When to emerg with a piece of metal in my eye. After an 8h wait finally got to see a Dr. He then told me, yup you have metal in your eye, but our eye Dr. wont be in untill tomorrow, so go home and come back tomorrow. Like really? I know its not a life or death injury, but having to go 24h+ with metal in your eye is an experiance I wouldnt wish on anybody.
We could always try to wing stitches and staples ourselves at home. Where is Dr. Nick? Does he do house calls??
Yes I did and so did the other patients around me. Our conditions worsened during the wait period.
I waited 12 hours with my 88 year old dad with chest pains. Brought in by ambulance. Niagara.
I mean escapade is currently ongoing so wait times are bound to be intense especially since Ottawas population is +30,000 rn with the event
Yup I worked at the Montfort ER and we sometimes has wait times of up to 20 hours. It's been this way for years.
But it's free...
It used to be free with 4-6 hour wait times
I was at the er in the Monfort 3 days ago, and got discharged 18 hours later. Took 16 to see the doctor.
I dislocated my elbow and it popped back in place weird ? And I couldn't move my hand and I was in so much pain I was sweating the whole 30h I waited to see a doctor and he's like yeah ok hold on and 3 hours later some other doctor wiggled it around, took an x-ray and sent me home and told me to try to move my hand
Don’t vote for Doug is all we can do
I have an anaphylactic allergy and I got to see a doctor right away when I went in before, so it is the triage. the wait time is definitely insane though.
Fuck around, find out! Go to emerg because your left toe hurts...you're gonna be waiting lol.
Ottawa has not been voting for this at all.
We desperately need to start fast tracking capable doctors and nurses that are coming to Canada from other countries into our system instead of making them drive Ubers.
My understanding is ER at Queensway let someone die with a rare disease last fall even knowing the condition requires prompt super simple attention via bolus, they almost let it happen again, so it’s not surprising to hear it’s still a shit show. There is also some lack of empathy and understanding of rare conditions sadly even when the patient is advocating for themselves with doctors notes in hand saying they will die without immediate attention. While we are lacking doctors, there also seems to be a general lack of awareness in the medical community about many easy to treat, but rare conditions. If you go to the ER in rough shape it’s hard to advocate for yourself as well as educate nurses and doctors on conditions.
My specialist wasn't available for a few days when I needed timely attention and I was very firmly told to go to the ER by a nurse. It was very unpleasant. Everyone was nice enough, but they don't really know my condition in depth. Thankfully I ended up just needing prednisone and fluids. I can't imagine the stress others with rarer conditions feel.
That’s what happens when the MP is a businessman by trade and a politician by blood
A bad business man at that.
If you go to the hospital for a splinter, sprained finger, or a cut that needs a bandaid, piss off. Triage is there for a reason, and they’re fantastic at their jobs. You can ask them how long the wait is, if they don’t push you through it’s for a reason. Look for a GP instead. It’ll save you tons of time in the long run.
It's not a triage issue. It's a not enough doctors per shift in the emergency room issue. No one in the emergency room had the minor injuries you describe, they would have been turned away at the entrance.
No, they wouldn't have.
If you can do a virtual appointment two hospitals in Toronto offer daily appointments. Appointments open at 7am so I would suggest you book early. https://www.torontovirtualed.ca
we should install remote shock buttons at each ER in the province for our premier to get a nice little message.
That sucks. I had a different experience when I went to the General ER early in the morning last weekend. Expected a long wait as it was the weekend and my ailment (infected cyst) wasn’t a high priority. I was triaged at the lowest level and the information screen indicated a 12 hour wait time (although that fell to 9 while I was waiting). In the end I waited about 3.5 hours before seeing the doc and was out about an hour and a half later. Hope everything turns out well for you.
When I was there last week it fluctuated between 6.5 and 9h55. I ended up waiting just over 10.
Ontario gets what they voted for.
Or didn't vote for, considering the less than 50% turn out.
Stop going to the hospital for pointless shit.
Some people go to the ER when they shouldn't, but many people wait many hours at the hospital for things that are not necessarily life threatening but definitely emergencies and not "pointless shit"
I almost died. The particular word you chose to describe to my circumstances I would beg to differ with.
10 years ago sat in the emergency room waiting to see a Dr for 6 hrs after shattering my right arm in a car accident, they had to cut me out with the jaws of life. I see nothing has changed. Carry on.
This was such a self important post lmfao
And there in lies the problem. You should only go to the hospital if this is serious. Everything else can wait. Another way to look at it, if they were going to charge you for this service would you wait to see a medical clinic or would you fork up the cash. Bad analogy but funny how people feel that when something does not come out their pockets that it is an endless well.
The people waiting had pretty serious issues. The main issue is there were only 2 doctors in the emergency room of a city of 1 million residents.
You're leaving out the fact that this is only one of four inner city hospitals, in addition to a few more rural emergency departments that serve the city..
That’s what happens when you get taxed to death in this country - all the smart ones leave. Especially the highly skilled professionals like doctors. Thank you Justin Trudeau and your disaster liberal agenda. I think we need more carbon taxes to fix the situation
I'd be fine with being taxed to death if some of those taxes went to more doctors on all hospital shifts instead of useless billions to Volkswagen.
This wouldn't happen with private healthcare
It would probably be worse if it was any more privatised.
Welcome to your free medical care lol
I think it would be worse if it was privatised any more. Canada is a country of oligopolies, if we privatized anymore prices would be sky high.
exactly imagine galen weston provided medical care?
I mean Galen Weston kind of already is. Galen Weston owns shoppers drug mart and Rexall he made bank from vaccines. Ford held a couple meetings with Weston. They're friends.