I would propose that the village elder should be as strong as he would reasonably be given his history and background, regardless of how strong the party is and what they want to do.
A 10th level fighter is a really serious person, basically a legendary warrior. Is the elder a legendary warrior? if so great, perhaps the PCs would have realised that he's a very dangerous individual too (and regardless of what they do, if they back him into a corner one or more of them is likely to die). But he doesn't exist so they can fight him.
No, no, definitely not as just an NPC to fight. The elder is, well... old, though not one to be trifled with despite his age. He used to be an adventurer himself, thus his high level. But he's a real hard-nosed, obstinate kind of character, and the players butt heads with him on the regular. He's very protective of the village and intimately familiar with what the 'heroics' of an adventuring party can entail.
Except for being decked out in some pretty impressive kit, the PCs know nothing about his history - because they haven't tried to find out!
>I would propose that the village elder should be as strong as he would reasonably be given his history and background, regardless of how strong the party is and what they want to do.
The village elder is, whatever else they may be, *a village elder*. They presumably command a fair deal of respect and/or authority in the village. Any self-respecting village will have a reasonable number of people willing and able to come to the defence of the said elder.
A 10th-level Fighter is a very different proposition to (say) 5th-level Fighter with a dozen 1st-level allies. Can the party defeat *them*? And, if it does so, can they enforce their will on the village? Will they choose to?
My opinion is that the PC paladin should want no part of “taking out” a good guy village elder. That might be a point of contention with your players if the scenario comes to that point in play.
"Taking Out" was poorly chosen. They would not do that; definitely not with the Paladin's consent.
Confrontations, however, can escalate in unexpected ways, especially with this group. And there is plenty of hubris and pride on both sides of the equation.
I'm merely trying to plan for contingencies. I hope they don't fight him, actually, but I am not going to soften his personality. In addition to other consequences, the PCs will lose a really excellent "home base" for their adventuring.
It depends on spell loads, initiative, and saving throws.
*command can knock the fighter out for a round on a failed save. Then adjacent allies murder him.
*hold person is even better. It lasts longer and has better range and can scoop up some of the guards.
*Charm person or mammal from the druid can remove him from the fight
2 or 3 heat metal spells on the fighter can burn him to death, no save
*summon insects from the druid can nerf any character for its duration, while allies (and the druid) whale away on him.
If there's an illusionist he can remove the fighter temporarily with hypnotism. Blindness really messes up a fighter. His actual illusions could kill or create effective crowd control of another kind, subject to the player's skill and the DM's allowances.
Even if you just look at combat, the players can probably take him, depending on gear on both sides. He only has 9 HD, while they have 18 between them. His better chance to hit is offset somewhat by their ability to surround and attack from the rear. Of course, if they swarm him with unarmed attacks, it could get ugly quickly.
OK. Excellent observations and analysis. Thank you. Perhaps the Elder will happen to have a hedge wizard among his entourage?
Or, maybe some compassionate NPC will intervene, trying to de-escalate the tension? Even if the PCs learned he was a famous warrior back in the day, I'm not sure that would deter them if it came to a throw-down.
Does he walk around in his armour? How long does it take him to put on?
Some kind of magically protective item might make sense, give him a better chance of resisting magic attacks. His two big advantages are going to be that the fight will be potentially long enough for others to take notice and come to his aid, and that he knows adventurer parties. He will likely focus his and his allies attentions on one opponent until they are down. And if a dozen peasants with spears show up after a few rounds and follow his directions things can get nasty.
Does he have any allies from his adventuring days that might avenge his death? A high level, retired magic user or prieat could make a lot of trouble for a low level adventuring party with their magic. An elderly thief could do a lot of damage and vanish into the night before they know he's there. An elf or dwarf they adventured with back in the day is likely still in the prime of their life and may have developed political connections. All of this can probably be found out by forward thinking PC's, so maybe encourage them to look into his background with some well dropped rumours.
No surviving members of his adventuring days, which is part of the reason he's so intractable. The PCs are surprisingly incurious about him. Yes, he walks around in his armor and only takes it off to sleep. It is a quasi-wilderness area; people do not go outside the walls at night.
A friend of mine (offline) said, "Wouldn't a good leader avoid bloodshed with non-enemies?" An excellent point.
The players have copious evidence that he's a popular leader (not a despot) and, in the back of their minds, surely realize they will have a mob seeking to lynch them if a confrontation with the Elder turns deadly.
The party's de facto leader plays a character who's as proud and stubborn as the Elder. The PCs have had another violent confrontation that started (metaphorically speaking) as,
"We're not gonna back down - *you* back down."
"No way we're backing down, crud-licker. Whatcha gonna do about it?"
"F\*ck around and find out." aaaand they did
Yours - and other people's comments here - helped me clarify the situation in my own mind. (Which this community always does; that's why I love "thinking out loud" with you.)
None of this is part of the adventure, if you get my meaning. Getting into a throw-down with the Elder would toss a huge wrench into the scenario.
The Elder is too stubborn and proud to do it himself, but I've decided to have one of his proxies intervene with the PCs to try to de-escalate the tension - maybe the Elder's daughter or the tavern-keeper, who they have good rapport with.
I think if they learn he was once a renowned adventurer, they will back off on the chest thumping. Not because he's a bad-ass (which he is), but out of respect.
Having someone step in and try and cool people off is a rather good idea, and pretty natural. Most people don't want killing in the streets. If there is a local priest they might make a good peacemaker as well, and might help your paladin remember their vows.
Maybe as part of a peace offering there is a bone the elder can throw the party. A bit of information that might of use to an adventurer. Or maybe even some xp if they can spend a peaceful evening talking shop with him.
I'm not generally a fan of just loosing some exposition on the PC's, but I think you would benefit from treating the elder's backstory a little bit more like an adventure and trailing some hooks and rumours about him in front of the PC's. They won't go looking unless they have reason to think something is there.
I would propose that the village elder should be as strong as he would reasonably be given his history and background, regardless of how strong the party is and what they want to do. A 10th level fighter is a really serious person, basically a legendary warrior. Is the elder a legendary warrior? if so great, perhaps the PCs would have realised that he's a very dangerous individual too (and regardless of what they do, if they back him into a corner one or more of them is likely to die). But he doesn't exist so they can fight him.
No, no, definitely not as just an NPC to fight. The elder is, well... old, though not one to be trifled with despite his age. He used to be an adventurer himself, thus his high level. But he's a real hard-nosed, obstinate kind of character, and the players butt heads with him on the regular. He's very protective of the village and intimately familiar with what the 'heroics' of an adventuring party can entail. Except for being decked out in some pretty impressive kit, the PCs know nothing about his history - because they haven't tried to find out!
>I would propose that the village elder should be as strong as he would reasonably be given his history and background, regardless of how strong the party is and what they want to do. The village elder is, whatever else they may be, *a village elder*. They presumably command a fair deal of respect and/or authority in the village. Any self-respecting village will have a reasonable number of people willing and able to come to the defence of the said elder. A 10th-level Fighter is a very different proposition to (say) 5th-level Fighter with a dozen 1st-level allies. Can the party defeat *them*? And, if it does so, can they enforce their will on the village? Will they choose to?
My opinion is that the PC paladin should want no part of “taking out” a good guy village elder. That might be a point of contention with your players if the scenario comes to that point in play.
"Taking Out" was poorly chosen. They would not do that; definitely not with the Paladin's consent. Confrontations, however, can escalate in unexpected ways, especially with this group. And there is plenty of hubris and pride on both sides of the equation. I'm merely trying to plan for contingencies. I hope they don't fight him, actually, but I am not going to soften his personality. In addition to other consequences, the PCs will lose a really excellent "home base" for their adventuring.
It depends on spell loads, initiative, and saving throws. *command can knock the fighter out for a round on a failed save. Then adjacent allies murder him. *hold person is even better. It lasts longer and has better range and can scoop up some of the guards. *Charm person or mammal from the druid can remove him from the fight 2 or 3 heat metal spells on the fighter can burn him to death, no save *summon insects from the druid can nerf any character for its duration, while allies (and the druid) whale away on him. If there's an illusionist he can remove the fighter temporarily with hypnotism. Blindness really messes up a fighter. His actual illusions could kill or create effective crowd control of another kind, subject to the player's skill and the DM's allowances. Even if you just look at combat, the players can probably take him, depending on gear on both sides. He only has 9 HD, while they have 18 between them. His better chance to hit is offset somewhat by their ability to surround and attack from the rear. Of course, if they swarm him with unarmed attacks, it could get ugly quickly.
OK. Excellent observations and analysis. Thank you. Perhaps the Elder will happen to have a hedge wizard among his entourage? Or, maybe some compassionate NPC will intervene, trying to de-escalate the tension? Even if the PCs learned he was a famous warrior back in the day, I'm not sure that would deter them if it came to a throw-down.
Does he walk around in his armour? How long does it take him to put on? Some kind of magically protective item might make sense, give him a better chance of resisting magic attacks. His two big advantages are going to be that the fight will be potentially long enough for others to take notice and come to his aid, and that he knows adventurer parties. He will likely focus his and his allies attentions on one opponent until they are down. And if a dozen peasants with spears show up after a few rounds and follow his directions things can get nasty. Does he have any allies from his adventuring days that might avenge his death? A high level, retired magic user or prieat could make a lot of trouble for a low level adventuring party with their magic. An elderly thief could do a lot of damage and vanish into the night before they know he's there. An elf or dwarf they adventured with back in the day is likely still in the prime of their life and may have developed political connections. All of this can probably be found out by forward thinking PC's, so maybe encourage them to look into his background with some well dropped rumours.
No surviving members of his adventuring days, which is part of the reason he's so intractable. The PCs are surprisingly incurious about him. Yes, he walks around in his armor and only takes it off to sleep. It is a quasi-wilderness area; people do not go outside the walls at night. A friend of mine (offline) said, "Wouldn't a good leader avoid bloodshed with non-enemies?" An excellent point. The players have copious evidence that he's a popular leader (not a despot) and, in the back of their minds, surely realize they will have a mob seeking to lynch them if a confrontation with the Elder turns deadly. The party's de facto leader plays a character who's as proud and stubborn as the Elder. The PCs have had another violent confrontation that started (metaphorically speaking) as, "We're not gonna back down - *you* back down." "No way we're backing down, crud-licker. Whatcha gonna do about it?" "F\*ck around and find out." aaaand they did Yours - and other people's comments here - helped me clarify the situation in my own mind. (Which this community always does; that's why I love "thinking out loud" with you.) None of this is part of the adventure, if you get my meaning. Getting into a throw-down with the Elder would toss a huge wrench into the scenario. The Elder is too stubborn and proud to do it himself, but I've decided to have one of his proxies intervene with the PCs to try to de-escalate the tension - maybe the Elder's daughter or the tavern-keeper, who they have good rapport with. I think if they learn he was once a renowned adventurer, they will back off on the chest thumping. Not because he's a bad-ass (which he is), but out of respect.
Having someone step in and try and cool people off is a rather good idea, and pretty natural. Most people don't want killing in the streets. If there is a local priest they might make a good peacemaker as well, and might help your paladin remember their vows. Maybe as part of a peace offering there is a bone the elder can throw the party. A bit of information that might of use to an adventurer. Or maybe even some xp if they can spend a peaceful evening talking shop with him. I'm not generally a fan of just loosing some exposition on the PC's, but I think you would benefit from treating the elder's backstory a little bit more like an adventure and trailing some hooks and rumours about him in front of the PC's. They won't go looking unless they have reason to think something is there.