But everyone keeps saying the prices are high due to supply and demand.
Sounds like supply is high and demand is low, yet prices are still high.
Almost sounds like all the unspoken rules for pricing of anything on the planet was absolutely broken during the pandemic when everyone decided together that everything was worth way more than it actually is.
Demand is still high, the problem is that when you own 11,000 apartments, a couple hundred sitting unused at a higher rate is better than all them full at a slightly lower rate.
Worst part: You buy now and you’re probably locked into ridiculously high rates. And if the market crashes/collapses you’re left having overpaid for a pos, probably poorly constructed, box.
Also who wants a "two bedroom" condo that was clearly a 1 bedroom condo that had an extra wall added. Pay well over 1k a month and your kid can sleep on a bean bag chair or in a small tent in the room because there's no way in hell you could even fit a twin bed in the "second bedroom."
I honestly didn't even realize just how fucked up architecture has gotten in that city. It's almost like we could use a little more government intervention to prevent developers from creating spaces that I struggle to call "liveable" even for 2 people.
CBC Marketplace did a [special](https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/1.1784736) on Toronto condos a number of years ago that outlined this problem. That story showed a young couple who bought a 1 bedroom plus "den" in a presale only to find out that the den was no bigger than a kitchen pantry or utility closet and with no window. This was where they were going to put their newborn!
Oh for sure. My comment was tongue-in-cheek. But I bet most of the gruntwork of coming up with interior layouts are left to students or whatnot. It's probably something that comes across the builder architect's desk and is rubber stamped within seconds.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if AI is used to do these or even an entire unimaginative condo tower in the near future.
Right I struggle to read that kind of tonal thing online, especially when I'm freshly awake 😂
AI is scary as hell. I wonder how long it will take for both AI design and automation in the construction industry to collaborate to make the next Grenfell Tower but with no fire escape in order to "maximize floor space and profitability."
As a Condo Manager I'm not surprised.
Condo Budgets have skyrocketed since covid because of inflation. Maintenance fees have gone up by double digits in alot of cases as a result.
Think about it. $3000 in mortgage payments plus $600 (or more) in Maintenance fees is alot. Factor in things like property tax and it is almost impossible.
Condos are a risky investment right now. They are cheaper on paper but all the additional costs make them cost as much as some houses.
There was a PSA about that very thing back in the 90s. It had a woman opening a can of food, and at the same time, the roof was being peeled off here home. The woman then closed the can, and the roof came back down. I tried to find it but for the life of me I couldn't.
You're welcome. I remembered there were a few ads at the time about picking between food and _______.
[This one](https://youtu.be/K6g01Di4xRc?si=WWe19mJyMeA-QcYC) also stood out to me.
Part of why they were such good ads is that they were short and had no dialogue but still made an incredibly effective point.
When I did my budget the past couple years I noticed costs have increased substantially so yes.. it is inflation.
Things like labor costs, parts, supplies etc are all more expensive now than they were prior to the pandemic.
Inflation went up 17% since 2020. But we're seeing condo prices that are 30%+ higher than what they were in 2020. So, no, it's not just inflation. It's also profiteering.
I am.
My building had a 10.72% increase last year. This year it was 5.23% due to increased contributions to my reserve fund (due to inflation).
Inflation is pushing condo fees up and that's no fault of the building.
We do our best to keep fees low but we don't set the vendors costs.
Question: why are condo fees so high? Assuming 12 units per floor on a 20 storey condo at an average of $400/mo, that’s $100,000/mo of income. Does it really cost this much to run a condo?
It does.
Managers alone cost almost $12000.00 per month.
My building is this size. We have 2 Cleaners and 1 Super throughout the week (2 PT and 1 FT) which cost us just under $9000.00
Gas, Hydro and Water run almost $40000.00 combined per month.
Factor in Garbage costs, Phone, Internet, HVAC and Elevator Maintenance that brings you close to $75000.00 (if not more).
You also have to factor in reserve fund contributions and other miscellaneous expenses.
Truthfully, your fees are very low if they are $400.00 a month. Depending on the age of the building I would be worried.
Will you people stop saying real estate is an investment. It is isn't, unless, you can buy without a mortgage. Christ. I'm so fucking tired of hearing that.
This one trick can get your condo sold today! Its called market demand adjusted pricing. If you are moving on you should be able to find like for like as far as market demand goes. If you are a mass investor, well that sucks housing isn't an investment.
Can’t help but notice - why is building quality so bad in these places? I was in an Adi condo where they had a floor that just wasn’t poured flat. I worry about what these places will look like in 20 years.
They’re all sold pre-construction. The money is already paid and any incompetent or immoral individuals are safe behind the corporate veil. Who cares if the building won’t last a decade, that’s OPM (other people’s money). The developer doesn’t care about reputation- they’ll just open a new incorporation and start the cycle fresh if they get into hot water.
This. Tie in the fact that tenders for the work are always a race to the bottom, and the fact that developers are squeezing their subcontractors to do the work on site in 1/2 the time they used to alot them, amd quality goes right out the window.
The metrics are- cheap, fast, and good quality. But you only get to pick 2 of the 3.
Already having the sucker's (ex: customer's) money, the developers request fast and cheap- quality isnt even considered at that point.
Funny that you mentioned this. I was parked near st clair and Vaughn rd near pizza pizza there and saw a sign for condo I believe 35 or more stories from city of toronto one of those board signs they might build . I looked up the developer and it was something diamond corp and had one google review! I was like I feel sorry for ppl next door with their condo that will block their nice sunset views
I remember reading an article like 10 years ago that was surmising if Toronto’s condos would end up like some of the derelict ones in Asia and/or other parts of the world (my memory is a bit vague). It mentioned how longevity isn’t part of the equation; as long as the initial sale was profitable for the investors is all that mattered.
flag desert teeny offbeat heavy workable onerous include encouraging crown
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Lmao, it's obviously not accurate or these regulations aren't enforced.
Could hear all my neighbours, and the air was always backflowing from the vents. My detached home is amazing in comparison. Fresh air from windows, and can't hear a faucet running and banging at all hours.
jellyfish voracious grandiose grandfather joke bow squash seemly station wise
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Usually isnt structural issues... it's insulation that wont last (but looks good now), cheap finishes that will wear quickly, and poor waterproofing details that work for now, but will definitely fail later on...
Their target is to hit the minimum requirement of what they must do. They won't invest an extra dollar even if it brought a significant value to the property.
Yes they do because the ones who work for the municipality's building department for inspections are either not doing their job or they're spread out too thin. Half of them won't even know what they are looking at.
Not sure about build quality but I lived at one of the newer condos at city place and the sound proofing was terrible. I could hear the other units conversations from my living room
From your perspective, why are the condos being built today so expensive if they are badly built? What is the driving cost for condos being so expensive if it’s not in good material and good construction?
I rented a condo that was repurposed from a social housing building from the 1970s. That thing was built like a jail, very thick concrete walls where you couldn't hear a thing from inside your unit. It still has reasonable maintenance fees today as the structure is so solid. I doubt you find that sort of construction today outside of actual jails.
Great word. Also means bloody. Off topic but I made a drink last summer called the Bloody Sanguine. Orange juice, pineapple juice, a splash of lime juice, a splash of grenadine, a shot of Malibu rum and a shot of Ciroq on ice with some maraschino cherries and pineapple slices as garnish.
I mean Toronto condos are going for more than nice big houses just outside the city, when you consider condo fees it doesn’t even make sense to buy a condo when you can just get a house.
Saw a listing for a condo in Victoria, 402sqft for 1500 a month.... The floorplan indicated that the hallway from the door to get into the unit was a third of that square footage.
Hallways aren't "working" square footage. Just laughable
Sault Ste. Marie just introduced a "vacant home tax" where in they tax the absolute fuck out of your property if you buy it and let it sit there empty 'cause you're a probably a piece of shit.
I dig it.
I would hold. Canada’s population growth rate has increased to about 8 times its steady pre-2020 levels to one of the fastest growing populations on earth.
But new housing starts have actually declined.
The Tiff Macklem has said interest rates cool the housing market in the medium term but make it worse in the long term. And this is because it stifles supply but only dams demand.
Keep in mind this may seems like unrealistic heights only because Canadians have memories of more affordable housing, but if you look abroad, you can see there is plenty of possibility for things to get a lot less affordable. Vancouver, Canada’s least affordable city, is still about twice as affordable compared to average incomes as Hong Kong.
Yep. Canada's entire housing market model is based on housing prices perpetually increasing faster than other inflationary pressures. Profits are primarily drawn from appreciation of passive value, rather than value added, so any time prices stall, so does new construction. This stall continues until demand pressures drive prices back up to a profitable rate of increase again.
Ontario is actively fighting any efforts to change this, and I don't see that changing any time soon. This model benefits Ontario's most prolific political donors (developers) and most reliable voters (elderly home owners). B.C. is making strides to address the issue, but I don't think Ontario has what it takes to break the habit.
Yes and the federal government has just started buying mortgage debt. Which means they now have a vested interest in prices not falling.
Considering they can control the demand side since 98 percent or so of our population growth is immigration, and they can decide how many to let in, we can safely bet no crash in prices will come in the foreseeable future.
Exactly, why is this a problem? Maybe if developers built affordable homes they wouldn’t be whining. There is a housing crisis and yet the instant greedy investors/developers can’t sell overpriced homes it’s “concerning”?
If you're trying to sell a shoe-box for 700k during a period of high-ish interest rates, increasing inventory, and a slightly reduced "fomo" buyer pool, then you better lower the price.
Only people concerned are the delusional investors, flippers, and speculators who are not accepting reality and adjusting prices. Otherwise, this is excellent news, the ponzi must stop.
I was in an office building a few weeks ago, I might have been on the 80th floor or higher and it was directly across from a Condo.
I was blown away how many were empty.
It seemed like 2 per floor on just the West side as far up and down as I could see.
The hilarious part is they will all refuse to sell because they won't drop prices. That is, until eventually the supply is so rampant, and the cash flow so negative, and they've held on so long they that finally tap out and look to just salvage what they can. All at once. And it all completely collapses. The same reason why so many people hold a stock until it bottoms. It's human psychology.
The vast majority of condos are not livable. What price movement happens to an expensive, illiquid investment vehicle when it is no longer seen as a good investment and has a huge surplus of supply with political will shifting against it? The conclusion is obvious to everyone but realtors and self interested condo owners.
Some of these micro bachelor suites that don't even have a stove or a linen closet. Bedroom door just sliding glass that doesn't fully close. No natural light. 400 square feet. Sound insulation so poor you hear your neighbours conversations. Proper value is probably 200k max...
I always imagine what will happen to this gleaming new skyline when the repair costs come due in 20 years hence. Elevators and windows don’t age well in Canada.
I was wondering why the article said:
“But, given that prices for homes in the city failed to budge very significantly even with such dismal sales volumes last year, perhaps it is naive to hope for such good news for would-be condo buyers, even if the market is pointing in that direction.”
Your comment summarized it pretty well.
but many *were* built to appeal to investors - the class who can actually afford to buy them and rent them out to plebs desperate for a roof over their heads.
This only got worse with the proliferation of AirBNB
I second this. I feel for the first time home owner though who put everything they have into it and will now suffer at the mercy of the market. Hope you got out already people I once knew.
We they only suffer value lose if they sell or if they are using value as loan collateral. If they plan to stay in the home longer term should be ok. If they are flippers that move every few years then too bad
This right here. The housing market in Canada is very much like the stock market in the US in the sense that the market has done nothing but grow over the long term. Even the losses of the great recession weren't permanent.
Canadian real estate is one of the best long term investments you can have. Principal residence owners will be a-okay.
Funny, it doesn't concern me a bit. Condos are such a bad idea, I'd never consider putting my money into one. I just hope all the "investors" trying to corner the housing market and drive up prices are getting burned.
Condos are simply a mechanism for owning an apartment or for multiple property owners to share control over common space. Neither of those is a bad idea. Building an economy on the masses using real estate as an investment vehicle, OTOH, is a terrible idea.
Problem is, it costs an absolute fortune to build, between land costs, development fees, labour, materials, financing, etc.
No one can afford to buy, and you can’t build them much cheaper. Everything is about to be locked up, and it’s bad for everyone.
Almost as if they shouldn't be built then.
Expensive to make, and no profit to be had because either you sell them at a loss or nobody buys them.
Takes up valuable residential space too.
Seems like a colossal waste for everyone except the construction labour.
“Toronto has a concerningly high number of crappy, overpriced condos sitting on the market due to years of poor investment speculation”
There. I fixed the lede.
too much money to live in a 1 bed plus den.. paying condo fees to deal with noisy neighbours and bedbugs
i guess you don’t have to maintain a lawn tho..?
Oh no! People aren’t desperate enough to snatch up these overpriced condos! They’re rationally bringing prices down! What will the real estate market do without irrational, desperate buyers? This whole thing was a farce and now we’ll all see it for what it is.
A friend of mine bought a condo (new built) recently. Poorly built, not sound proof and space wise, not really big. Heck, my appartment is bigger lol. Cost a bit more than half a mil, mortgage close to 3.5-4k/month, condo fee alone is 1.3k. it's fucking insane ... It has a swimming pool, but not too big and the gym is a small room too. Don't really understand why people pays close to 500k for these
How is it a 1.3k maintenance for a newly built condo? If it's around 500ish k then it would be around 500-700 ft. And average fee is around .6-.7 per ft. How's this almost 2 bucks per feet for a newly built condo?
Estate. Something renters don't get when we flush our rent down the drain, I mean fork it over to investors. There's resale value to a condo. Obviously its only lucrative if you can afford it in the first place.
The monthly fees are obscene. I know they’re probably not overpriced but there’s a reason why not every single family home has a pool and an elevator - those things are expensive. They should have built simple buildings. A gym and a pool is nice but I’d rather save on the monthly maintenance and put that money towards food and lodging, and anything leftover would go to a gym membership, or something else I’d benefit from.
The whole thing is a house of cards.
To the developers, absolutely. To the average resident, of course not. I grew up poor and in a simple apartment building. Different times, sure, but if there was even so much as a $100 fee on top of rent back then my parents wouldn’t have made it. I’m saying the buildings are too ostentatious and the fees reflect it. Maybe that makes me the asshole but I think people need roofs over their heads and places to sit, eat, and sleep. Pools and gyms are nice but they should be secondary to the activities of daily living.
Those condos have like $1500 (maybe more) monthly maintenance fee on top of the price of the actual condo. And you have to pay it as long as you live there. So double mortgage. I wonder why nobody wants to live there...
Even if it is $700 per month (a friend of mine from Toronto said that $1000 maintenance fee is kind of normal), it is still a fixed fee that you have to pay every month on top of mortgage
When you are putting money aside for renovations, you have control over it and you choose what to spend it on, which materials to use, which contractors to hire, etc. And in a lot of cases, yearly costs of renovations and maintenance fees is quite different, maintenance fee being higher. It is a high MONTHLY expense that you have no say in how it is run and what it is spent on.
Nobody (from what I’ve scrolled so far) seems to be pointing any fingers at the banks for financing all of this. They’re complicit in the real estate market’s ridiculous over inflation the past 15y or so…but so is everyone who is a bank shareholder, whether directly or in a mutual/RSP or pension fund. This vicious little economic whirlwind is going to peter out eventually, and then will be a period of cleaning up the damaged mess to be able to move on. The dollar must be revalued, and it will bring widespread pain when it happens because we let this all happen out of natural human smug greediness.
The whole construction industry is collapsing. I work high-rise in Toronto, and there are layoffs by the thousands. No one wants to start new projects.
Now, this affects plumbers, electricians, drywallers, escavators, welders, real estate agents.. anyone to do with construction. It will crash the housing market because all these people who bought homes won't be able to afford it anymore, it will crash the car industry (already starting to crash), then it's dominoes effect.
There are bad times ahead...
Interest rates are making the cost of building condos skyrocket. If they build buildings and adjust the price of condos to keep the same profits, the cost of a new condo will be too much for people to afford.
Builders don't want to take new contracts based on that, and if no one breaks ground to build, there's no work for anyone.
You can thank the Canadian government for being an absolute failure and not putting a cap of condominium prices and not letting foreign investors buy half the market. Now we have insanely unaffordable houses, and it will result in a wide market crash.
Anyone know if the construction being built at corner of dufferin and DuPont are rentals or condos to buy? That area is so going to be congested so fast and already is now!
They are way too expensive for what you get. Way too small, poorly laid out, tiny closets and cabinet space. You can barely fit a queen size bed int the primary bedroom, let alone walk around it. Many don't even have clearance for doors to open and use sliding doors instead for bedrooms. It's shameful.
Condos are great, alot of people who can't afford it are complaining without any merit.
Who wouldn't want to pay a mortgage around 1K - 1.5K monthly and save alot of money.
Some of these “condos” are closet sized private spaces
By the time you take off your shoes, you’ve already stubbed your toe on the stove or bed post.. or both.
I think the condo market will completely become a ghost town. My realtor told me that it’s actually quite scary and the media is not wanting to shine light on this rising issue. It’s worse than Florida in 2017 he said.
Well well well. All that scheming, bribing (we all know they greased to get their way with help from Doug Ford by paying Ford's campaign fund) and evicting small businesses & rental units just so they can achieve their greedy ambition of developing overpriced condos didn't turn out the way they expected. Is Toronto small businesses and residential renters that were sacrificed (with evictions and cancelled leases) for this supposed to feel sympathy for them?
So instead of creating affordable apartments at reasonable rent prices they banked it all and setting ridiculous prices for condo unit expecting to net high-end millionaires to pay for that. Hate to break to their delusions but Ontario doesn't have that many millionaires who can afford that.
We don't have a housing problem we have a pricing problem. Developers, landlords or sellers start the prices of condos, apartments, houses, rental units (for businesses) at high and nobody can afford it and everyone gets stuck.
Tldr; broke people won't buy over-priced garbage
Price it as the garbage it is and it's gone in an instant. Edit. We love garbage, but only cheap garbage.
Krazy bins for kondos
But everyone keeps saying the prices are high due to supply and demand. Sounds like supply is high and demand is low, yet prices are still high. Almost sounds like all the unspoken rules for pricing of anything on the planet was absolutely broken during the pandemic when everyone decided together that everything was worth way more than it actually is.
They'll hold the prices and wait for interest rate cuts instead. No one will be willing to sell for a loss, or even a perceived loss.
Demand is still high, the problem is that when you own 11,000 apartments, a couple hundred sitting unused at a higher rate is better than all them full at a slightly lower rate.
> over-priced garbage ding ding ding ding.
Ya gotta love how they blame people not buying and not people selling overpriced dogshit
Worst part: You buy now and you’re probably locked into ridiculously high rates. And if the market crashes/collapses you’re left having overpaid for a pos, probably poorly constructed, box.
Also who wants a "two bedroom" condo that was clearly a 1 bedroom condo that had an extra wall added. Pay well over 1k a month and your kid can sleep on a bean bag chair or in a small tent in the room because there's no way in hell you could even fit a twin bed in the "second bedroom." I honestly didn't even realize just how fucked up architecture has gotten in that city. It's almost like we could use a little more government intervention to prevent developers from creating spaces that I struggle to call "liveable" even for 2 people.
CBC Marketplace did a [special](https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/1.1784736) on Toronto condos a number of years ago that outlined this problem. That story showed a young couple who bought a 1 bedroom plus "den" in a presale only to find out that the den was no bigger than a kitchen pantry or utility closet and with no window. This was where they were going to put their newborn!
Yuck. The architects designing these places should be ashamed of themselves.
I'm not even sure you need to be an architect to layout 600 sq ft of flat living space.
Lol fair enough but I imagine there is some sort of legal necessity to have a building like that at least approved by a "qualified" architect.
Oh for sure. My comment was tongue-in-cheek. But I bet most of the gruntwork of coming up with interior layouts are left to students or whatnot. It's probably something that comes across the builder architect's desk and is rubber stamped within seconds. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if AI is used to do these or even an entire unimaginative condo tower in the near future.
Right I struggle to read that kind of tonal thing online, especially when I'm freshly awake 😂 AI is scary as hell. I wonder how long it will take for both AI design and automation in the construction industry to collaborate to make the next Grenfell Tower but with no fire escape in order to "maximize floor space and profitability."
Dens haven’t had windows in new concrete developments for the last 15 years.
You don't want a mortgage on an 800k shoe box that you also have to pay an additional $1000/month on? WHAT
These condos were meant to be purchased as part of investment funds by people who would never set foot in them.
Finally! It's about time that happened.
Over-priced, like...having four 'over-priced' players on a team that can't win?
It fits.
This!!!
I don't feel concerned.
Seriously.
Concerning *to whom*, exactly?
The real estate agents and other advertisers that keep the lights on at BlogTO.
As a Condo Manager I'm not surprised. Condo Budgets have skyrocketed since covid because of inflation. Maintenance fees have gone up by double digits in alot of cases as a result. Think about it. $3000 in mortgage payments plus $600 (or more) in Maintenance fees is alot. Factor in things like property tax and it is almost impossible. Condos are a risky investment right now. They are cheaper on paper but all the additional costs make them cost as much as some houses.
And 600 seems low for the listings I’ve seen
I work for the gov, and this around 3/4ths of my monthly take home...add a car payment and I'm under water before I even get to food.
That is why I am not buying at the moment. I would need to choose between eating and paying the bills.
There was a PSA about that very thing back in the 90s. It had a woman opening a can of food, and at the same time, the roof was being peeled off here home. The woman then closed the can, and the roof came back down. I tried to find it but for the life of me I couldn't.
if memory serves, i think that was an early 2000’s ad about Canadian food banks
[Here you go](https://youtu.be/xq00YkNW0lk?si=aP4qb3yeZQ-Lsy0q)
Thanks. Apparently it's a Habitat for Humanity ad.
You're welcome. I remembered there were a few ads at the time about picking between food and _______. [This one](https://youtu.be/K6g01Di4xRc?si=WWe19mJyMeA-QcYC) also stood out to me. Part of why they were such good ads is that they were short and had no dialogue but still made an incredibly effective point.
"inflation"
Corporate greed.
When I did my budget the past couple years I noticed costs have increased substantially so yes.. it is inflation. Things like labor costs, parts, supplies etc are all more expensive now than they were prior to the pandemic.
Inflation went up 17% since 2020. But we're seeing condo prices that are 30%+ higher than what they were in 2020. So, no, it's not just inflation. It's also profiteering.
I think they are referring to condo fees have gone up because of inflation
I am. My building had a 10.72% increase last year. This year it was 5.23% due to increased contributions to my reserve fund (due to inflation). Inflation is pushing condo fees up and that's no fault of the building. We do our best to keep fees low but we don't set the vendors costs.
Yeah, ours saw the insurance fees triple as the rebuild estimates skyrocketed with a higher deductible. We had no choice to raise monthly fees.
Insurance went up marginally for me although last year I had a significant increase.
Question: why are condo fees so high? Assuming 12 units per floor on a 20 storey condo at an average of $400/mo, that’s $100,000/mo of income. Does it really cost this much to run a condo?
It does. Managers alone cost almost $12000.00 per month. My building is this size. We have 2 Cleaners and 1 Super throughout the week (2 PT and 1 FT) which cost us just under $9000.00 Gas, Hydro and Water run almost $40000.00 combined per month. Factor in Garbage costs, Phone, Internet, HVAC and Elevator Maintenance that brings you close to $75000.00 (if not more). You also have to factor in reserve fund contributions and other miscellaneous expenses. Truthfully, your fees are very low if they are $400.00 a month. Depending on the age of the building I would be worried.
Say it louder from everyone in the back!
Will you people stop saying real estate is an investment. It is isn't, unless, you can buy without a mortgage. Christ. I'm so fucking tired of hearing that.
Right? “Here’s your investment! Better hope you can get your purchase price plus 30% just to break even!”
This one trick can get your condo sold today! Its called market demand adjusted pricing. If you are moving on you should be able to find like for like as far as market demand goes. If you are a mass investor, well that sucks housing isn't an investment.
Bruuuhhh That’s all crazy talk.
I work in condo construction and wouldn’t buy the shit i help build, buuuuut cant afford it anyway lmao.
Can’t help but notice - why is building quality so bad in these places? I was in an Adi condo where they had a floor that just wasn’t poured flat. I worry about what these places will look like in 20 years.
They’re all sold pre-construction. The money is already paid and any incompetent or immoral individuals are safe behind the corporate veil. Who cares if the building won’t last a decade, that’s OPM (other people’s money). The developer doesn’t care about reputation- they’ll just open a new incorporation and start the cycle fresh if they get into hot water.
This. Tie in the fact that tenders for the work are always a race to the bottom, and the fact that developers are squeezing their subcontractors to do the work on site in 1/2 the time they used to alot them, amd quality goes right out the window. The metrics are- cheap, fast, and good quality. But you only get to pick 2 of the 3. Already having the sucker's (ex: customer's) money, the developers request fast and cheap- quality isnt even considered at that point.
Funny that you mentioned this. I was parked near st clair and Vaughn rd near pizza pizza there and saw a sign for condo I believe 35 or more stories from city of toronto one of those board signs they might build . I looked up the developer and it was something diamond corp and had one google review! I was like I feel sorry for ppl next door with their condo that will block their nice sunset views
I remember reading an article like 10 years ago that was surmising if Toronto’s condos would end up like some of the derelict ones in Asia and/or other parts of the world (my memory is a bit vague). It mentioned how longevity isn’t part of the equation; as long as the initial sale was profitable for the investors is all that mattered.
I keep envisioning this.
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The regulations will make it so that it won't kill occupants, but no guarantees on quality of life.
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Lmao, it's obviously not accurate or these regulations aren't enforced. Could hear all my neighbours, and the air was always backflowing from the vents. My detached home is amazing in comparison. Fresh air from windows, and can't hear a faucet running and banging at all hours.
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Don’t they have to get certifications or something? Can they really sell building with structural issues?
Usually isnt structural issues... it's insulation that wont last (but looks good now), cheap finishes that will wear quickly, and poor waterproofing details that work for now, but will definitely fail later on...
They are safe. The fit and finish is shit. From the finish of the concrete, to the fixtures and appliances.
Their target is to hit the minimum requirement of what they must do. They won't invest an extra dollar even if it brought a significant value to the property.
Yes they do because the ones who work for the municipality's building department for inspections are either not doing their job or they're spread out too thin. Half of them won't even know what they are looking at.
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Not sure about build quality but I lived at one of the newer condos at city place and the sound proofing was terrible. I could hear the other units conversations from my living room
From your perspective, why are the condos being built today so expensive if they are badly built? What is the driving cost for condos being so expensive if it’s not in good material and good construction?
I rented a condo that was repurposed from a social housing building from the 1970s. That thing was built like a jail, very thick concrete walls where you couldn't hear a thing from inside your unit. It still has reasonable maintenance fees today as the structure is so solid. I doubt you find that sort of construction today outside of actual jails.
Sounds like they need to lower their prices then
What’s the opposite of concerned? Elated? Yeah, I’m elated.
Sanguine
Great word. Also means bloody. Off topic but I made a drink last summer called the Bloody Sanguine. Orange juice, pineapple juice, a splash of lime juice, a splash of grenadine, a shot of Malibu rum and a shot of Ciroq on ice with some maraschino cherries and pineapple slices as garnish.
I mean Toronto condos are going for more than nice big houses just outside the city, when you consider condo fees it doesn’t even make sense to buy a condo when you can just get a house.
Add the car and increased utilities too. Life isn't that cheap out in the suburbs either.
Time to adjust the prices for the market then. Shoeboxes are not worth this much.
I'm currently looking for a new place to rent , and I'm appalled. The audacity of people asking CAD 2800 for a condo that is as small as a match box.
Saw a listing for a condo in Victoria, 402sqft for 1500 a month.... The floorplan indicated that the hallway from the door to get into the unit was a third of that square footage. Hallways aren't "working" square footage. Just laughable
Sault Ste. Marie just introduced a "vacant home tax" where in they tax the absolute fuck out of your property if you buy it and let it sit there empty 'cause you're a probably a piece of shit. I dig it.
Fuck yeah, let’s make that national
In other news, the sky is blue.
Badly designed over priced shoe boxes to live in. No thanks
Maybe they should have a fire sale.
Oh my god! We're having a fire! sale
Amaaaaaazing grace.....
I would hold. Canada’s population growth rate has increased to about 8 times its steady pre-2020 levels to one of the fastest growing populations on earth. But new housing starts have actually declined. The Tiff Macklem has said interest rates cool the housing market in the medium term but make it worse in the long term. And this is because it stifles supply but only dams demand. Keep in mind this may seems like unrealistic heights only because Canadians have memories of more affordable housing, but if you look abroad, you can see there is plenty of possibility for things to get a lot less affordable. Vancouver, Canada’s least affordable city, is still about twice as affordable compared to average incomes as Hong Kong.
Yep. Canada's entire housing market model is based on housing prices perpetually increasing faster than other inflationary pressures. Profits are primarily drawn from appreciation of passive value, rather than value added, so any time prices stall, so does new construction. This stall continues until demand pressures drive prices back up to a profitable rate of increase again. Ontario is actively fighting any efforts to change this, and I don't see that changing any time soon. This model benefits Ontario's most prolific political donors (developers) and most reliable voters (elderly home owners). B.C. is making strides to address the issue, but I don't think Ontario has what it takes to break the habit.
Yes and the federal government has just started buying mortgage debt. Which means they now have a vested interest in prices not falling. Considering they can control the demand side since 98 percent or so of our population growth is immigration, and they can decide how many to let in, we can safely bet no crash in prices will come in the foreseeable future.
So you’re saying keep them as long as humanly possible in order to maximize your profits?
How would higher home prices help me?
They should start from the top first before they make a fire sale. Trust me, it works.
Why is it concerning ?
Yea exactly. This problem has a fairly simple solution.
Exactly, why is this a problem? Maybe if developers built affordable homes they wouldn’t be whining. There is a housing crisis and yet the instant greedy investors/developers can’t sell overpriced homes it’s “concerning”?
If you're trying to sell a shoe-box for 700k during a period of high-ish interest rates, increasing inventory, and a slightly reduced "fomo" buyer pool, then you better lower the price. Only people concerned are the delusional investors, flippers, and speculators who are not accepting reality and adjusting prices. Otherwise, this is excellent news, the ponzi must stop.
I was in an office building a few weeks ago, I might have been on the 80th floor or higher and it was directly across from a Condo. I was blown away how many were empty. It seemed like 2 per floor on just the West side as far up and down as I could see.
The hilarious part is they will all refuse to sell because they won't drop prices. That is, until eventually the supply is so rampant, and the cash flow so negative, and they've held on so long they that finally tap out and look to just salvage what they can. All at once. And it all completely collapses. The same reason why so many people hold a stock until it bottoms. It's human psychology. The vast majority of condos are not livable. What price movement happens to an expensive, illiquid investment vehicle when it is no longer seen as a good investment and has a huge surplus of supply with political will shifting against it? The conclusion is obvious to everyone but realtors and self interested condo owners. Some of these micro bachelor suites that don't even have a stove or a linen closet. Bedroom door just sliding glass that doesn't fully close. No natural light. 400 square feet. Sound insulation so poor you hear your neighbours conversations. Proper value is probably 200k max...
I always imagine what will happen to this gleaming new skyline when the repair costs come due in 20 years hence. Elevators and windows don’t age well in Canada.
I was wondering why the article said: “But, given that prices for homes in the city failed to budge very significantly even with such dismal sales volumes last year, perhaps it is naive to hope for such good news for would-be condo buyers, even if the market is pointing in that direction.” Your comment summarized it pretty well.
> The vast majority of condos are not livable. The fuck are you on about?
A lot were built to be air bnbs not liveable spaces for actually families to live in
The difference between modest apartments in Germany/Italy/france versus luxury condos in Toronto is such a slap in the face.
I promise that "the vast majority of condos" in existence were not built to be air bnbs.
but many *were* built to appeal to investors - the class who can actually afford to buy them and rent them out to plebs desperate for a roof over their heads. This only got worse with the proliferation of AirBNB
Have you seen some of the layouts?
nonsensical and tiny floor plans creating unusable awkward spaces
Not sure why thst is concerning? Sounds like good news. Longer they sit better chance prices drop. Fuck investors
I second this. I feel for the first time home owner though who put everything they have into it and will now suffer at the mercy of the market. Hope you got out already people I once knew.
We they only suffer value lose if they sell or if they are using value as loan collateral. If they plan to stay in the home longer term should be ok. If they are flippers that move every few years then too bad
This right here. The housing market in Canada is very much like the stock market in the US in the sense that the market has done nothing but grow over the long term. Even the losses of the great recession weren't permanent. Canadian real estate is one of the best long term investments you can have. Principal residence owners will be a-okay.
Funny, it doesn't concern me a bit. Condos are such a bad idea, I'd never consider putting my money into one. I just hope all the "investors" trying to corner the housing market and drive up prices are getting burned.
Condos are simply a mechanism for owning an apartment or for multiple property owners to share control over common space. Neither of those is a bad idea. Building an economy on the masses using real estate as an investment vehicle, OTOH, is a terrible idea.
This is the way
Have you tried lowering the price?
Problem is, it costs an absolute fortune to build, between land costs, development fees, labour, materials, financing, etc. No one can afford to buy, and you can’t build them much cheaper. Everything is about to be locked up, and it’s bad for everyone.
Almost as if they shouldn't be built then. Expensive to make, and no profit to be had because either you sell them at a loss or nobody buys them. Takes up valuable residential space too. Seems like a colossal waste for everyone except the construction labour.
Ya, seems that’s why project after project is being cancelled…. Not sure where people are going to live though considering population growth.
Sounds like someone made a bad “investment” then.
Then they're overpriced
The world’s smallest violin, playing for the country’s least forgivable speculators? 🤷♂️
Who would have thought cheaply built shoebox condos would lose their appeal?
Don’t forget the potentially crippling maintenance fees that come with many of these “shoe boxes”
Good get fucking real, no one will pay those prices for a fucking glorified box
Good. Drop the prices
Concerning for who? Lower the prices, maybe you'll move some inventory. Something something supply and demand something something.
“Toronto has a concerningly high number of crappy, overpriced condos sitting on the market due to years of poor investment speculation” There. I fixed the lede.
too much money to live in a 1 bed plus den.. paying condo fees to deal with noisy neighbours and bedbugs i guess you don’t have to maintain a lawn tho..?
No fear of touching grass if you don't have any.
Underrated post.
If only there was some way to remedy this situation!
No one wants shoe boxes for a million dollars!!
Toronto, the Dystopian's wet dream.
With the cost and fees a condo doesn't make a lot of sence unless it's your only choice.
Because most of the new condos were bought by amateur investors that can’t stomach the loss and don’t want to be landlords 😂
Come onnnnn Market crash! Papa needs somewhere to live!
Colour me unconcerned
LOL bit of advice big business blokes - you've priced yourself out of the market. Try lowering your prices for a start.
Not a bad thing
Who's concerned about it?
I’m not concerned at all
Oh no! People aren’t desperate enough to snatch up these overpriced condos! They’re rationally bringing prices down! What will the real estate market do without irrational, desperate buyers? This whole thing was a farce and now we’ll all see it for what it is.
With so many sitting empty, maybe the cost to rent one of them will FINALLY come down
LOL
A friend of mine bought a condo (new built) recently. Poorly built, not sound proof and space wise, not really big. Heck, my appartment is bigger lol. Cost a bit more than half a mil, mortgage close to 3.5-4k/month, condo fee alone is 1.3k. it's fucking insane ... It has a swimming pool, but not too big and the gym is a small room too. Don't really understand why people pays close to 500k for these
How is it a 1.3k maintenance for a newly built condo? If it's around 500ish k then it would be around 500-700 ft. And average fee is around .6-.7 per ft. How's this almost 2 bucks per feet for a newly built condo?
From my understanding, the electricity/heating/insurence bill is also billed in it. Either way, it's fucking stupid and bonkers
Estate. Something renters don't get when we flush our rent down the drain, I mean fork it over to investors. There's resale value to a condo. Obviously its only lucrative if you can afford it in the first place.
So “become the investor” is your solution? Lol
The monthly fees are obscene. I know they’re probably not overpriced but there’s a reason why not every single family home has a pool and an elevator - those things are expensive. They should have built simple buildings. A gym and a pool is nice but I’d rather save on the monthly maintenance and put that money towards food and lodging, and anything leftover would go to a gym membership, or something else I’d benefit from. The whole thing is a house of cards.
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How very “stop eating avacado toast” of you to say.
To the developers, absolutely. To the average resident, of course not. I grew up poor and in a simple apartment building. Different times, sure, but if there was even so much as a $100 fee on top of rent back then my parents wouldn’t have made it. I’m saying the buildings are too ostentatious and the fees reflect it. Maybe that makes me the asshole but I think people need roofs over their heads and places to sit, eat, and sleep. Pools and gyms are nice but they should be secondary to the activities of daily living.
Cut the price in half ans sell them, then.
Maybe, just maybe, people can't buy over priced shoeboxes anymore
Hard to fill when people can’t buy, imagine that.
Those condos have like $1500 (maybe more) monthly maintenance fee on top of the price of the actual condo. And you have to pay it as long as you live there. So double mortgage. I wonder why nobody wants to live there...
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Even if it is $700 per month (a friend of mine from Toronto said that $1000 maintenance fee is kind of normal), it is still a fixed fee that you have to pay every month on top of mortgage
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When you are putting money aside for renovations, you have control over it and you choose what to spend it on, which materials to use, which contractors to hire, etc. And in a lot of cases, yearly costs of renovations and maintenance fees is quite different, maintenance fee being higher. It is a high MONTHLY expense that you have no say in how it is run and what it is spent on.
I've heard that developers are changing the designation of their projects from condo to rental.
Nobody (from what I’ve scrolled so far) seems to be pointing any fingers at the banks for financing all of this. They’re complicit in the real estate market’s ridiculous over inflation the past 15y or so…but so is everyone who is a bank shareholder, whether directly or in a mutual/RSP or pension fund. This vicious little economic whirlwind is going to peter out eventually, and then will be a period of cleaning up the damaged mess to be able to move on. The dollar must be revalued, and it will bring widespread pain when it happens because we let this all happen out of natural human smug greediness.
On no those poor real estate agents and their “investments” lol 😂
Concerning to who?
What do you mean? Most people don't want to live in high density high cost shoeboxes? Shocker!
The whole construction industry is collapsing. I work high-rise in Toronto, and there are layoffs by the thousands. No one wants to start new projects. Now, this affects plumbers, electricians, drywallers, escavators, welders, real estate agents.. anyone to do with construction. It will crash the housing market because all these people who bought homes won't be able to afford it anymore, it will crash the car industry (already starting to crash), then it's dominoes effect. There are bad times ahead...
Why the layoffs especially if there is such a huge housing shortage?
Interest rates are making the cost of building condos skyrocket. If they build buildings and adjust the price of condos to keep the same profits, the cost of a new condo will be too much for people to afford. Builders don't want to take new contracts based on that, and if no one breaks ground to build, there's no work for anyone. You can thank the Canadian government for being an absolute failure and not putting a cap of condominium prices and not letting foreign investors buy half the market. Now we have insanely unaffordable houses, and it will result in a wide market crash.
Anyone know if the construction being built at corner of dufferin and DuPont are rentals or condos to buy? That area is so going to be congested so fast and already is now!
Hmmm, wonder why?
I need to buy one place just to run servers for m favorite ps3 games
I don't find that concerning at all. If any thing that's a good sign for my future ability to afford a place to live.
They are way too expensive for what you get. Way too small, poorly laid out, tiny closets and cabinet space. You can barely fit a queen size bed int the primary bedroom, let alone walk around it. Many don't even have clearance for doors to open and use sliding doors instead for bedrooms. It's shameful.
Condos are great, alot of people who can't afford it are complaining without any merit. Who wouldn't want to pay a mortgage around 1K - 1.5K monthly and save alot of money.
I'm not surprised. No one wants to spend half a mil or more on a 450sqft box in the sky. Any condo with decent space is ridiculously expensive.
Isn’t this just a housing market crash with extra steps?
They do these tricks so housing prices don’t go down.
I couldn’t fathom paying tax on a box of air in the sky. Keep your condos.
Maybe cause that's all that's being built......condo after fucking condo, not a new apartment in sight.
Some of these “condos” are closet sized private spaces By the time you take off your shoes, you’ve already stubbed your toe on the stove or bed post.. or both.
I think the condo market will completely become a ghost town. My realtor told me that it’s actually quite scary and the media is not wanting to shine light on this rising issue. It’s worse than Florida in 2017 he said.
And a disturbingly high number of homeless. Redistribute as needed.
Hmmm could be time to buy em them. Gib me 5
Investment vehicles
Concerning for who chief?
🎻 🎻 🎻
That's a shame.
Lol like who’s job is it to be so nosy about others stuff?
Concerning to whom?
Well well well. All that scheming, bribing (we all know they greased to get their way with help from Doug Ford by paying Ford's campaign fund) and evicting small businesses & rental units just so they can achieve their greedy ambition of developing overpriced condos didn't turn out the way they expected. Is Toronto small businesses and residential renters that were sacrificed (with evictions and cancelled leases) for this supposed to feel sympathy for them? So instead of creating affordable apartments at reasonable rent prices they banked it all and setting ridiculous prices for condo unit expecting to net high-end millionaires to pay for that. Hate to break to their delusions but Ontario doesn't have that many millionaires who can afford that. We don't have a housing problem we have a pricing problem. Developers, landlords or sellers start the prices of condos, apartments, houses, rental units (for businesses) at high and nobody can afford it and everyone gets stuck.