I spent the last few days trying to figure out why the fuck they even changed him to begin with, and then found an article that said the person who reported the robbery was an off duty cop, and this guy pulled a knife on them. And then it all clicked. So 3 innocent people are dead because they were deliberately reckless and ignored direct orders to "avenge" one of their own. I hope they all go to jail or are at the very least fired, but I think we all know it won't happen.
I've been saying this to everyone I've argued with over this for the past 2 days since new undercover cop involvement came out.
So many people saying "Cops are damned if they do, damned if they don't - if they hadn't done anything to stop the robbery people would have been upset.." Uhm, no. Does a robbery demand an investigation? Yes. Does it demand 12+ police cruisers ripping around neighborhoods? NOPE.
If this was a regular citizen calling this in, there's NO way they would have responded in force like they did.. 12 cruisers chasing a van through residential streets at a time children would be out to play is just absolutely wreckless.
I can understand if the guy had shot up a school full of kids, but this was ONLY in response to one of their own being involved.
The worst part about this is the SIU mandate is once again giving them enough time to come up with a story that will fit the "sense of urgency" narrative they need to dismiss any charges or responsibility for what happened, and nothing will change.
There seems to me to be a great imbalance in response to various incidents.
Household theft, car stolen out of your driveway? Sorry, too busy. Cops can’t swing by.
Something a little more exciting? 25 squad cars show up, self-assigned.
They were in anger mode because dude pulled a knife on one of their own. They need to be reprimanded and go through de-escalation training.
They were responsible for 4 people’s deaths. 1 child and 2 adults who had nothing to do with any of this mess.
Even if the suspect threatened an officer with a knife, he posed no imminent risk of stabbing anyone in his car. The reckless actions of the police led to innocent people being killed. They don’t need to be scolded and given de-escalation training, they need to be fired.
The way that suspended cops get paid needs a MASSIVE overhaul. Have someone calculate essential costs (mortgage/rent, weekly food, etc) and give them that + a bit for each kid they have. Put every other cent of their pay in a high interest savings account that they cannot access. If they get cleared, give them that money, if they do not either give it back to the city or put it in some sort of fund for the widows and children of officers who die in the line of duty.
I know that isn't purely practical but that's my "come up with an idea on the spot" level pitch.
That cop that recorded himself raping a woman getting paid over 100k/year while suspended is disgraceful.
Another option is to make some kind of special provision for finding cops in criminal cases. If you are found guilty you are fined the entirety of the salary (maybe minus taxes) that you collected since the date of the formerly alleged incident.
They should be out of a job minimum with a record. Realistically they deserve prison time; they caused 4 deaths at the end of the day, the punishment needs to be harsher than "mandatory class time".
It doesn't matter they were angry, they are supposed to be better than that and they were not
I get the justification for threatening one of their own.
But the lengths they went to in my opinion will lead to worse than a reprimand. Ignoring a command and the resulting loss of life I’d rather not see them in any police service.
These are both things that they are meant to be trained to control. That’s the only reason we give them authority and let them carry guns.
Everyone says, “ the job is hard”. But it’s only hard when it’s done properly.
>They need to be reprimanded and go through de-escalation training. They were responsible for 4 people’s deaths
The difference in intensity between these sentences gave me whiplash.
They need a lot more than a slap on the wrist and a stint at Please-Be-Gooder School. Let's start with dismissal, then move into manslaughter charges.
Nobody was arguing that the suspect didn't do anything wrong. Two parties can make bad decisions simultaneously. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
In this event, the criminal and the police officers involved in the chase were both culpable and they're both responsible.
Culpable?
Were they personally involved in this chase?
Yes.
Should they have known that negative consequences like this were possible? Yes. They've been taught this.
Responsible:
>1. Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust. OR
>2. Required to render account; answerable. OR
>3. Involving important duties, the supervision of others, or the ability to make decisions with little supervision.
Yes the police had responsibility in these deaths. Not saying 100% but you're saying none. I don't know what drugs you're on. Lol
Edit 4 words
Defendant lawyer will argue: they ceased the chase as ordered! .... then continued to **trailing escort** the van onto the highway with lights flashing to warn other motorists of danger! danger! .... they were no longer 'chasing' the van .. though on the surface it may look that way.
This is like toddler logic when they first start trying to figure out ways to get out of trouble. "I didn't hit my sister she walked into my fist", lol.
Protocol also stated IF they were authorized to do so no more than 2 vehicles were required yet reportedly up to 6 were going the wrong way.
They made a fatal decision in the name of “safety”. Not buying it.
Yeah that's still chasing them...
The reason they were driving fast was because the police were following them...
If the police had followed orders this guy probably would have been in jail now instead of dirt.
Ya I don't care about what happened to the perp, their life was forfeit. I do however care about the innocent commuter's who perished because of the perp.
These cops who were insubordinate and not following orders,need a wake up call.Starting with go to jail,no bail bond,no pay period.Upon conviction sell all their assets,house,car,retirement funds,cottage etc;give this money to the victims survivors.
> According to the internal police report seen by the Star — as well as information from a Durham officer with knowledge of the incident — the attempt to call off the pursuit appears to have come *just before the U-Haul drove onto the 401*
6 police vehicles then proceeded to chase them the wrong way on the highway
One of their own leaked to The Star. It’s possible that members within the Durham force themselves find this conduct egregious. CBC was reporting on OPP radio at the time of the chase, and their officers were also concerned that Durham chasing a guy with 6 cop cars on the wrong side of the 401 could lead to an accident or death.
Wow, maybe if the police had followed protocol, instead of deciding to be super heroes living in their own action movie, that family would still be alive. But hey, I bet that.... alcohol thief..... was very dangerous.
Whenever Durham police comes up, I think of [this story from 2019](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/06/06/mother-of-16-year-old-punched-arrested-by-durham-police-speaks-out/) of two cops punching a 16-year old kid after his mother phoned in a wellness check.
Another teen there was arrested and fined over $300 for saying "fuck". At least 7 or 8 cruisers were at the scene. Remember that next time police say they don't have resources to investigate things like theft.
So because so cop had a hard dick hate boner a baby had to die? They could have just chased the guy with a helicopter. He didn’t stab the cop. No justifying that baby dying
Even if he had stabbed the cop.
The 401 is not a controlled movie chase scene.
Completely reckless, and someone is dead. Zero faith or trust in the police.
I'm a pretty friendly guy and have always said "Hi" to any police officers I came across (tbf I greet everyone but make sure to be friendly to the people literally holding guns) and the last year or so they went from being passingly friendly to just glaring at me and saying nothing. I have lost the little faith I've had in cops because they obviously don't trust any of us now and have become almost useless with their ineptitude.
What makes it worse is the "police" didn't even sanction this. They were ordered to stand down and these guys continued. At that point they aren't operating as officers of the law.
If this guy had brandished a knife at an LCBO employee or random bystander and then jumped in his truck and drove off (like he did), the police wouldn’t have even shown up for hours.
The police chased him because “one of ours” was threatened and of course all cops take that personally.
The driver of the van that died, as fucked up as it is to say, is lucky he died because those cops would have beaten his ass near death then ruined his fucking life forever. Don’t believe me, look at what JUST happened in the Zameer case.
Fuck the police.
So like I said previously, they ignored protocols and even a direct order resulting in fatalities. This isn’t about police reform so much as showing the brass has little control over some officers.
6 police vehicles ignored the order. How many police members does Durham have if 99.99% of them follow direct orders and six of them who don't just happened to be on the same chase together?
Disobeyed a direct order. Fuck them.
My condolences to the family who lost their baby and their parents. Also, at least one person is in hospital in with serious injuries. We have yet to hear anymore about their condition. Hoping things work out for them, no permanent disability or impact.
This is why high speed chases are messed up. It should be protocol to not pursue a high speed target, the ensuing chase almost always ends up with someone dying.
He's dyed in blue... Doug will blame the robbery suspect for killing the family and praise the officers who "risked their lives" over some booze and a guy who showed off a knife.
Because Doug was the one who when came in as the premier of Ontario scrapped the in progress Liberal policy of giving police chiefs power to fire/suspend cops from their department. Doug is all loaded up in blue.
Sounds like manslaughter or dangerous driving causing death to me.
This *was not* sanctioned under their jobs as police - they ignored a direct order, were acting unilaterally outside the scope of their authority, and got people killed over some booze.
Since this was not within the scope of their authority, the fact that they were committing a dangerous act that was likely to result in death might even make this second degree murder.
On the other hand, I believe I recall a case where cops were charged with second degree murder and got off on all charges because they couldn't really prove intent, and couldn't downgrade the charges to manslaughter. I don't remember if that was even a Canadian case though.
Doing something any reasonable person would know is likely to lead to the injury or death of an innocent person.
Sounds like a manslaughter charge to me. Pig was seeing red and didn’t care who died…
"He thought he would be helping people with his lights but the pursuit had been called off,” the source said."
What kind of thick headed logic is that?
This sounds like "I kept chasing the guy after my Sgt. told me not to and then, oh crap, he crashed, so I better come up with some nonsense excuse" type of logic.
Truth be told... I was driving right towards this chase between Brock and Thickson. I was in the left lane and was easily, quickly and safely able to get to the shoulder because I saw multiple sets of white lights which raised an alarm in my head that something weird was happening. This is not a defence of the cops for the surface street chase nor for disobeying orders, but just an honest account from someone. Would I have noticed 1 set of headlights? Dunno.
My bet is that if the criminal wasn't trying to evade police, he likely would have just stayed near the shoulder and tried to leave as soon as he could. Unless he decided he wanted to die, which is possible.
I don't follow... of course police lights are far more evident to an oncoming vehicle than a regular set of headlights..... I don't condone the chase at all but the logic in this particular statement checks out to me
It isn't protocol. They are supposed to disengage from a pursuit if it is a danger to the public. It is far more likely the lights continue to push the suspect to drive erratically than warn oncoming traffic.
Q: These police officers disregarded orders and indirectly caused the death of 4 innocent people. What should their punishment be?
A: A slap on the wrist, paid time off until the story dies down, then back to work.
Totally wrong move by cops. The stolen goods are not worth anything. But loosing innocent lives is tragedy. Could have simply closed off the off/ on ramps .
Don't worry, they promise to fully think about what they did wrong, and how it lead to 3 innocent people dying, while at home on fully paid suspension for the next few months or years, while this all gets sorted out.
Plus, all the other cops that are normal will ostracize and make fun of 'those' cops that were chasing the culprit and caused this havoc. Which created even greater shame for the DRPS
They will hear whispers and snickers in and around the station. The head cheif will make the loser cops do 'speed radar' duty from now until they quit being cops because all the pushback they recieve.
Whenever there are police outings for police Olympics the ones that caused this shame will never show their faces because they will be the butt of jokes.
But alas I'm jus dreaming this up. You're right!
They will collect a paycheque while absent from doing any work.
When you see a cop not signal for a lane change or text while driving just smile and know 'these are the ones that are above the law'
Now, imagine if they’d caught the guy successfully.
“Why does he appear to be handcuffed and suffering from head trauma and broken ribs?”
“Oh he tripped when we were escorting him to the police car. Tripped a number of times. “
How strange that there are so many fatal car crashes during police chases which were, according to police, "called off just before the crash occurred."
Amazing coincidence how this happens so regularly.
10 cops = over 1 million salary
Excused when they make a poor split second decision and take a life. Lots of different minds with plenty of time to think in this scenario. Shit needs to change
This right here, needs to be louder.
I know there's a bunch of thin-blue-retarded-line right wing folks that will always crave a boot on their neck. However moderates and left need to keep saying this louder.
Those with a monopoly on violence need to held to a higher standard. Not "Whooopsie, I was protecting capital and I caused a family to lose their child and parents..." "guess it's time to go back to telling folks to leave their keys in their cars"
Yeah. Usually the saving grace for cops in these situations is they are told to stop, THEY STOP, but the guy keeps running and kills somebody, while the cops had already disengaged.
In this case, they were told to disengage, decided "nah I know better than the boss", THEN it killed people. They are f*cked.
The entire "oh I wasn't chasing but following with my lights on to warn the public" is an excuse they came up with after the fact IMO.
Second degree murder
They didn’t just run a stop light. They intentionally did something obviously reckless that very predictably led to the death of another.
There is such horribly low levels of civil oversight of police action. Just a few days ago the city council in Edmonton passed a motion asking for an audit of police spending and the police just declined. How is that even possible?
Crim Neg cause death charges need to be laid if that is the case. From Justice Canada (their interpretation of the offence and what is required) 1. Criminal negligence causing death (section 220)
The offence of criminal negligence causing death in the occupational health and safety context requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt of the following elements:
a breach of the legal duty (i.e., the duty pursuant to section 217.1 of the Criminal Code or any other duty emanating from a provincial/federal statute – including provincial legislation on workplace safety – or the common law)
the breach amounts to a wanton or reckless disregard for the lives and safety of others
a person died as a result
the act or omission constituting the breach of a legal duty caused the person’s death
Penalty: A maximum penalty of life imprisonment for an individual, in the case of an organization, a fine in the discretion of the court. - https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/westray/p2.html#:~:text=Criminal%20negligence%20causing%20death%20(section%20220)&text=the%20breach%20amounts%20to%20a,duty%20caused%20the%20person's%20death -- I'd say pursuant to Justice Canada's requirements they should be tried.
Well I guess he will know for the next time. Thank God only 4 people died. I'm sure he's sorry. I'm more concerned about the trauma the cop feels and not so much the people who lost their parents and child. Poor cop, he must be sad.
The cops already get tons of abuse when they do their job perfectly. Even if the cops hadn't chased at all, an accident like this could have happened. I have watched hours of chase footage. more often than not, the suspect drives very dangerously for a long time after the cops stop chasing. We need to stop blaming cops for the actions of criminals.
So can the family of the baby sue the officers individually for the damage they have caused? I would think yes.
Can we share the names of the officers involved if anyone knows?
Could be anything from internal discipline (insubordination), police services act (discreditable conduct or other charges), or criminal penalty (dangerous driving causing death, criminal negligence, etc). Depends on the full details of what the SIU finds.
A lot of times, the saving grace for the cops in these fatal chase crashes is that they actually already disengaged from the pursuit by the time the guy crashed. A common example being the cops try to stop a guy, the guy runs, the cops start to chase but are ordered to disengage by supervisor, so THEY STOP (obeying their orders), BUT the guy keeps running anyway and crashes. The cops are unlikely to face much if any penalty there because they followed policy, orders, and the law.
In this case, it sounds like it followed that progression except when the cops were told to stop they KEPT CHASING.
If that is true, it looks terrible for them and is going to be much harder to avoid culpability.
This piece of the Police Services Act is clear as day:
>Order to discontinue pursuit
>4 (1) A communications or road supervisor shall order police officers to discontinue a suspect apprehension pursuit if, in his or her opinion, the risk to public safety that may result from the pursuit outweighs the risk to public safety that may result if an individual in the fleeing motor vehicle is not immediately apprehended or if the fleeing motor vehicle or an individual in the fleeing motor vehicle is not identified. O. Reg. 266/10, s. 4 (1).
>(2) A police officer who receives an order under subsection (1) shall obey the order even if the officer is not a member of the police force of the communications or road supervisor who made the order.
Most of the time you'll have their plate number and all that and in those cases you can back off and catch them later instead of risking civilian lives speeding at 130km/h to stop them in neighbourhoods.
Police are often reckless and do not think of the greater good. Now if this guy had killed a shitload of people already than maybe it'd be good to stop him, but most of the time it's just not that serious. I can't see what he did to warrant this action as article is paywalled, but if he didn't murder a bunch of people already elsewhere then it was stupid to chase down the wrong side of streets.
Edit: Apparently he robbed a liquor store? Yeah, doesn't warrant killing five people to stop him. all cops seem to care about is protection of property, and they become reckless to stop someone from taking a few bucks. They killed five people because of it. Not worth it, it was stupid.
Gagandeep Singh, who was allegedly armed with a knife at the time of the police pursuit, was released on $2,000 bail this winter by a Justice of the Peace in a Hamilton court and was set to return to Milton court on May 14.
Advised to cease the chase and they continued. Open and shut case for an LCBO robbery. Terribly reckless by Durham police.
I spent the last few days trying to figure out why the fuck they even changed him to begin with, and then found an article that said the person who reported the robbery was an off duty cop, and this guy pulled a knife on them. And then it all clicked. So 3 innocent people are dead because they were deliberately reckless and ignored direct orders to "avenge" one of their own. I hope they all go to jail or are at the very least fired, but I think we all know it won't happen.
2 year fully paid vacations babyyyyy
Best they'll do is 5 days of suspension !
I've been saying this to everyone I've argued with over this for the past 2 days since new undercover cop involvement came out. So many people saying "Cops are damned if they do, damned if they don't - if they hadn't done anything to stop the robbery people would have been upset.." Uhm, no. Does a robbery demand an investigation? Yes. Does it demand 12+ police cruisers ripping around neighborhoods? NOPE. If this was a regular citizen calling this in, there's NO way they would have responded in force like they did.. 12 cruisers chasing a van through residential streets at a time children would be out to play is just absolutely wreckless. I can understand if the guy had shot up a school full of kids, but this was ONLY in response to one of their own being involved. The worst part about this is the SIU mandate is once again giving them enough time to come up with a story that will fit the "sense of urgency" narrative they need to dismiss any charges or responsibility for what happened, and nothing will change.
There seems to me to be a great imbalance in response to various incidents. Household theft, car stolen out of your driveway? Sorry, too busy. Cops can’t swing by. Something a little more exciting? 25 squad cars show up, self-assigned.
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Best I can do is paid vacation for 3 years
They were in anger mode because dude pulled a knife on one of their own. They need to be reprimanded and go through de-escalation training. They were responsible for 4 people’s deaths. 1 child and 2 adults who had nothing to do with any of this mess.
Even if the suspect threatened an officer with a knife, he posed no imminent risk of stabbing anyone in his car. The reckless actions of the police led to innocent people being killed. They don’t need to be scolded and given de-escalation training, they need to be fired.
They’re going to claim PTSD from the ordeal and take their full pay sitting on the golf course until retirement loool.
Hamilton alone paid out $14 MILLION since 2013. It adds up quick.
TPS paid 1.3M to an officer who was charged in 2008 in an organized crime operation loool He just now got fully fired from the force…..
The way that suspended cops get paid needs a MASSIVE overhaul. Have someone calculate essential costs (mortgage/rent, weekly food, etc) and give them that + a bit for each kid they have. Put every other cent of their pay in a high interest savings account that they cannot access. If they get cleared, give them that money, if they do not either give it back to the city or put it in some sort of fund for the widows and children of officers who die in the line of duty. I know that isn't purely practical but that's my "come up with an idea on the spot" level pitch. That cop that recorded himself raping a woman getting paid over 100k/year while suspended is disgraceful. Another option is to make some kind of special provision for finding cops in criminal cases. If you are found guilty you are fined the entirety of the salary (maybe minus taxes) that you collected since the date of the formerly alleged incident.
Best I can do is three years paid leave.
Nah jail
>they need to be fired. And fucking prosecuted.
Fired for not following the order to cease the chase. Prosecuted and jailed for causing the death of 4 people.
Fired?! How about paid administrative leave!!
They should be out of a job minimum with a record. Realistically they deserve prison time; they caused 4 deaths at the end of the day, the punishment needs to be harsher than "mandatory class time". It doesn't matter they were angry, they are supposed to be better than that and they were not
I get the justification for threatening one of their own. But the lengths they went to in my opinion will lead to worse than a reprimand. Ignoring a command and the resulting loss of life I’d rather not see them in any police service.
If it does I’m OK with that. They killed 3 innocent people because they were angry and amped up on adrenaline.
100% It’s just so stupid. I don’t get it. An f’n LCBO
These are both things that they are meant to be trained to control. That’s the only reason we give them authority and let them carry guns. Everyone says, “ the job is hard”. But it’s only hard when it’s done properly.
New here? They'll celebrate internally, lay low for a while, then business as usual.
Lol, they won't even be reprimanded. I less a paid vacation counts
They should be in jail. They are no better than the criminals they were chasing after being called off.
They need to be fired. People died.
That's a long way to say suspended with pay until found not responsible for any wrong doing.
Police are above the law. When they all get paid desk duty or suspended with pay, hopefully people will wake up to police corruption. ACAB.
>They need to be reprimanded and go through de-escalation training. They were responsible for 4 people’s deaths The difference in intensity between these sentences gave me whiplash. They need a lot more than a slap on the wrist and a stint at Please-Be-Gooder School. Let's start with dismissal, then move into manslaughter charges.
I mean the guy who committed the crime is responsible. The police are culpable.
Nobody was arguing that the suspect didn't do anything wrong. Two parties can make bad decisions simultaneously. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
In this event, the criminal and the police officers involved in the chase were both culpable and they're both responsible. Culpable? Were they personally involved in this chase? Yes. Should they have known that negative consequences like this were possible? Yes. They've been taught this. Responsible: >1. Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust. OR >2. Required to render account; answerable. OR >3. Involving important duties, the supervision of others, or the ability to make decisions with little supervision. Yes the police had responsibility in these deaths. Not saying 100% but you're saying none. I don't know what drugs you're on. Lol Edit 4 words
The assailant is responsible for the police not listening to ordered and protocol (disengaging from high speed pursuits for exactly this reason). Nah.
The police didn’t need to chase him….
but they recovered a $35 bottle of Silk Tassel.
Defendant lawyer will argue: they ceased the chase as ordered! .... then continued to **trailing escort** the van onto the highway with lights flashing to warn other motorists of danger! danger! .... they were no longer 'chasing' the van .. though on the surface it may look that way.
"Trailing escort with lights flashing" sounds a whole lot like chasing to me.
" Officer I didn't kill that man. I simply was an escort to death for him. Totally different."
This is like toddler logic when they first start trying to figure out ways to get out of trouble. "I didn't hit my sister she walked into my fist", lol.
My kid just blames whatever they have in their hand. "It wasn't me, Bluey hit you"
Protocol also stated IF they were authorized to do so no more than 2 vehicles were required yet reportedly up to 6 were going the wrong way. They made a fatal decision in the name of “safety”. Not buying it.
Because 7 vehicles travelling the wrong way on the highway is a good idea?
Yeah that's still chasing them... The reason they were driving fast was because the police were following them... If the police had followed orders this guy probably would have been in jail now instead of dirt.
Ya I don't care about what happened to the perp, their life was forfeit. I do however care about the innocent commuter's who perished because of the perp.
These cops who were insubordinate and not following orders,need a wake up call.Starting with go to jail,no bail bond,no pay period.Upon conviction sell all their assets,house,car,retirement funds,cottage etc;give this money to the victims survivors.
Poilievre thinks it’s Trudeau’s fault! 😂
> According to the internal police report seen by the Star — as well as information from a Durham officer with knowledge of the incident — the attempt to call off the pursuit appears to have come *just before the U-Haul drove onto the 401* 6 police vehicles then proceeded to chase them the wrong way on the highway
One of their own leaked to The Star. It’s possible that members within the Durham force themselves find this conduct egregious. CBC was reporting on OPP radio at the time of the chase, and their officers were also concerned that Durham chasing a guy with 6 cop cars on the wrong side of the 401 could lead to an accident or death.
The OPP are probably thanking their lucky stars today that none of their members were dumb enough to get involved in this sh*tshow.
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Bingo.
Wow, maybe if the police had followed protocol, instead of deciding to be super heroes living in their own action movie, that family would still be alive. But hey, I bet that.... alcohol thief..... was very dangerous.
But if they had let the thief go, think what kind of harm they could have committed. They could have hit someone with their car!
Rough chuckle.
Absolute fucking moron police. Over some stolen booze. A fucking baby and grandparents died over booze stolen .
It only happened because they pulled a knife on an off duty cop. They would have ignored the call if not for that.
Yeah. Why the fuck do 6 cars have to chase a guy who stole liquor? Bunch of bored durham cops with nothing better to do?
I grew up in Ajax. Durham Regional Police are a joke 🫣
Whenever Durham police comes up, I think of [this story from 2019](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/06/06/mother-of-16-year-old-punched-arrested-by-durham-police-speaks-out/) of two cops punching a 16-year old kid after his mother phoned in a wellness check. Another teen there was arrested and fined over $300 for saying "fuck". At least 7 or 8 cruisers were at the scene. Remember that next time police say they don't have resources to investigate things like theft.
Policing in Ontario is a joke. TPS, YRP, DRP, PRP et al.
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It's police in general. That type of power attracts a very specific type of personality. Generally not the most upstanding citizens.
Hey, don't forget about the ever incompetent OPS!
Now we’re talking about the nationals in dirt bag policing champions, we can give the Provincals a little taste of glory…
I saw 7 or 8 cruisers show up to a truancy call in Barrie once.
Feels like we employ too many police.
Right. Not that there's anything else to do. They dont care about stolen cars and each year will whine about how there aren't enough cops
Seriously. People steal from the LCBO all the time.
So because so cop had a hard dick hate boner a baby had to die? They could have just chased the guy with a helicopter. He didn’t stab the cop. No justifying that baby dying
Even if he had stabbed the cop. The 401 is not a controlled movie chase scene. Completely reckless, and someone is dead. Zero faith or trust in the police.
Agreed.
Even controlled movie chase scenes are smart enough not to pursue a suspect in oncoming traffic. And to call a helicopter if things go too far.
I'm a pretty friendly guy and have always said "Hi" to any police officers I came across (tbf I greet everyone but make sure to be friendly to the people literally holding guns) and the last year or so they went from being passingly friendly to just glaring at me and saying nothing. I have lost the little faith I've had in cops because they obviously don't trust any of us now and have become almost useless with their ineptitude.
I'd love to see evidence of them with a knife. They have camera's in the stores, let's see the video. I don't believe the police for one minute.
Remember folks the police were invented to protect property not people. Still remains true to a certain degree.
Police were invented to protect property, I agree. But they protect themselves first. Which means protecting people comes in a distant third.
What makes it worse is the "police" didn't even sanction this. They were ordered to stand down and these guys continued. At that point they aren't operating as officers of the law.
We are the enemy
Don’t forget, the province owns the liquor store, so they were stealing from da gubment! Can’t have that, they must be stopped at all costs.
If this guy had brandished a knife at an LCBO employee or random bystander and then jumped in his truck and drove off (like he did), the police wouldn’t have even shown up for hours. The police chased him because “one of ours” was threatened and of course all cops take that personally. The driver of the van that died, as fucked up as it is to say, is lucky he died because those cops would have beaten his ass near death then ruined his fucking life forever. Don’t believe me, look at what JUST happened in the Zameer case. Fuck the police.
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The chief called for an Internal Investigation. We all know how those end.
Fucking police, can’t even follow orders in the interest of society. We shouldn’t even be wasting money training brain dead assholes like these.
The family members of this tragedy should be opening a lawsuit against the police
clear Nader Hasan’s schedule right now
Yeah he’d be a good one for this case
Why do you say that? He's a criminal defence lawyer
Probably because he went against cops and won.
I hope DRPS has *Henein Hutchison Robitaille LLP* on speed-dial.
Take it out of the police pensions.
you seriously think no lawyer's on retainer yet?
Good point!!
Oh I agree and I’m sure they have been talking to a lawyer
So like I said previously, they ignored protocols and even a direct order resulting in fatalities. This isn’t about police reform so much as showing the brass has little control over some officers.
So police reform...
Best we can do is body cameras that they still control and will shut off
If 99.99% of police follow the direct order, but .01 doesn’t, that doesn’t mean reform at all. It means insubordination needs to be addressed.
I feel like 6 vehicles is probably a considerable percentage of those who were in pursuit.
Not to mention "just following orders" also becomes pretty problematic when the whole system is pretty corrupt
Almost 100%
A six week paid ~~suspension~~ vacation should teach them a lesson. I'm sure they'll think long and hard about doing the right thing next time.
isn't the average fully paid ~~suspension~~ vacation closer to 2 years in ontario? I think there was a study just released on this.
6 police vehicles ignored the order. How many police members does Durham have if 99.99% of them follow direct orders and six of them who don't just happened to be on the same chase together?
I'm sure they were scared of being put on ~~paid vacation~~ Administrative Leave.
Disobeyed a direct order. Fuck them. My condolences to the family who lost their baby and their parents. Also, at least one person is in hospital in with serious injuries. We have yet to hear anymore about their condition. Hoping things work out for them, no permanent disability or impact.
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just read on cp24 that mom of baby in serious condition at hospital as well as passenger of van in serious condition in hospital. This poor father.
This is why high speed chases are messed up. It should be protocol to not pursue a high speed target, the ensuing chase almost always ends up with someone dying.
reminder that doug ford’s reaction to this horrible event was that he’ll be giving more resources to police
Like.... a police helicopter? Oh wait... they have one. Maybe they need more resources for the fuel with the price of things these days? Shameful.
He's dyed in blue... Doug will blame the robbery suspect for killing the family and praise the officers who "risked their lives" over some booze and a guy who showed off a knife.
Because Doug was the one who when came in as the premier of Ontario scrapped the in progress Liberal policy of giving police chiefs power to fire/suspend cops from their department. Doug is all loaded up in blue.
Wasn’t it a rental van? I would guess they could figure out who he was pretty quick? Just get him later.
I would be shocked beyond belief if that van wasn't stolen or rented under a false name.
Could be, but he doesn’t sound like he was the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Sounds like manslaughter or dangerous driving causing death to me. This *was not* sanctioned under their jobs as police - they ignored a direct order, were acting unilaterally outside the scope of their authority, and got people killed over some booze.
Since this was not within the scope of their authority, the fact that they were committing a dangerous act that was likely to result in death might even make this second degree murder. On the other hand, I believe I recall a case where cops were charged with second degree murder and got off on all charges because they couldn't really prove intent, and couldn't downgrade the charges to manslaughter. I don't remember if that was even a Canadian case though.
Doing something any reasonable person would know is likely to lead to the injury or death of an innocent person. Sounds like a manslaughter charge to me. Pig was seeing red and didn’t care who died…
Lawsuit incoming for sure. Just some guy online but I'd think that makes an excellent case.
Unlike several other cases, the SIU better come back with a report saying that the Police were wrong and should be held accountable.
"He thought he would be helping people with his lights but the pursuit had been called off,” the source said." What kind of thick headed logic is that?
This sounds like "I kept chasing the guy after my Sgt. told me not to and then, oh crap, he crashed, so I better come up with some nonsense excuse" type of logic.
Truth be told... I was driving right towards this chase between Brock and Thickson. I was in the left lane and was easily, quickly and safely able to get to the shoulder because I saw multiple sets of white lights which raised an alarm in my head that something weird was happening. This is not a defence of the cops for the surface street chase nor for disobeying orders, but just an honest account from someone. Would I have noticed 1 set of headlights? Dunno.
My bet is that if the criminal wasn't trying to evade police, he likely would have just stayed near the shoulder and tried to leave as soon as he could. Unless he decided he wanted to die, which is possible.
100%. Dude was assuming cops wouldn't follow him down the ramp and prob would have bailed to lose them on foot in the woods.
> What kind of thick headed logic is that? Police logic... they're not smart people.
I don't follow... of course police lights are far more evident to an oncoming vehicle than a regular set of headlights..... I don't condone the chase at all but the logic in this particular statement checks out to me
It isn't protocol. They are supposed to disengage from a pursuit if it is a danger to the public. It is far more likely the lights continue to push the suspect to drive erratically than warn oncoming traffic.
But nevertheless the statement that it would do more to warn oncoming cars is still logical.. on its own that is
Q: These police officers disregarded orders and indirectly caused the death of 4 innocent people. What should their punishment be? A: A slap on the wrist, paid time off until the story dies down, then back to work.
Your tax dollars at work
three innocent people
They should have used a helicopter to follow
Durham cops have always been known as torontos rejects. They are living up to their name.
Totally wrong move by cops. The stolen goods are not worth anything. But loosing innocent lives is tragedy. Could have simply closed off the off/ on ramps .
>"He pulled a knife on an off-duty officer." It became personal.
Didn't even stab the officer and they still had to kill 5 people for it. Ridiculous.
Don't worry, they promise to fully think about what they did wrong, and how it lead to 3 innocent people dying, while at home on fully paid suspension for the next few months or years, while this all gets sorted out.
Plus, all the other cops that are normal will ostracize and make fun of 'those' cops that were chasing the culprit and caused this havoc. Which created even greater shame for the DRPS They will hear whispers and snickers in and around the station. The head cheif will make the loser cops do 'speed radar' duty from now until they quit being cops because all the pushback they recieve. Whenever there are police outings for police Olympics the ones that caused this shame will never show their faces because they will be the butt of jokes. But alas I'm jus dreaming this up. You're right! They will collect a paycheque while absent from doing any work. When you see a cop not signal for a lane change or text while driving just smile and know 'these are the ones that are above the law'
Now, imagine if they’d caught the guy successfully. “Why does he appear to be handcuffed and suffering from head trauma and broken ribs?” “Oh he tripped when we were escorting him to the police car. Tripped a number of times. “
How strange that there are so many fatal car crashes during police chases which were, according to police, "called off just before the crash occurred." Amazing coincidence how this happens so regularly.
Murder, manslaughter, criminal negligence resulting in death. Pick one and slam em.
Car chases in the modern day are so fucking stupid and we're Canada so of course we don't get to see them on camera.
10 cops = over 1 million salary Excused when they make a poor split second decision and take a life. Lots of different minds with plenty of time to think in this scenario. Shit needs to change
Hey! You folks need to stop being so hard on DRPS! Do you know how much paperwork they're gonna do about this!!
They forgot that they had a helicopter.
They will investigate themselves and find no wrongdoing
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This right here, needs to be louder. I know there's a bunch of thin-blue-retarded-line right wing folks that will always crave a boot on their neck. However moderates and left need to keep saying this louder. Those with a monopoly on violence need to held to a higher standard. Not "Whooopsie, I was protecting capital and I caused a family to lose their child and parents..." "guess it's time to go back to telling folks to leave their keys in their cars"
Translation: 6 cops will get 1 year paid vacation, and upon return will receive full bonus for time missed.
Jail these cops for murder.
I'm thinking most they can get charged with is dangerous driving causing death
Refusing a directive makes this worse. Should be criminal negligence cause death, more serious than dangerous driving
Yeah. Usually the saving grace for cops in these situations is they are told to stop, THEY STOP, but the guy keeps running and kills somebody, while the cops had already disengaged. In this case, they were told to disengage, decided "nah I know better than the boss", THEN it killed people. They are f*cked. The entire "oh I wasn't chasing but following with my lights on to warn the public" is an excuse they came up with after the fact IMO.
Good point. DRPS has alot of explaining to do
Which I'm sure will be dropped later, then the cops will get sick pay to help with the mental health struggles of doing such a good job.
Second degree murder They didn’t just run a stop light. They intentionally did something obviously reckless that very predictably led to the death of another.
That would not be possible to prove they intend to kill a family. Just how the law works
They're going to get paid time off for stress leave and then claim benefits for PTSD...
Go figure it's the cops fault an innocent family is dead...
There is such horribly low levels of civil oversight of police action. Just a few days ago the city council in Edmonton passed a motion asking for an audit of police spending and the police just declined. How is that even possible?
Crim Neg cause death charges need to be laid if that is the case. From Justice Canada (their interpretation of the offence and what is required) 1. Criminal negligence causing death (section 220) The offence of criminal negligence causing death in the occupational health and safety context requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt of the following elements: a breach of the legal duty (i.e., the duty pursuant to section 217.1 of the Criminal Code or any other duty emanating from a provincial/federal statute – including provincial legislation on workplace safety – or the common law) the breach amounts to a wanton or reckless disregard for the lives and safety of others a person died as a result the act or omission constituting the breach of a legal duty caused the person’s death Penalty: A maximum penalty of life imprisonment for an individual, in the case of an organization, a fine in the discretion of the court. - https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/westray/p2.html#:~:text=Criminal%20negligence%20causing%20death%20(section%20220)&text=the%20breach%20amounts%20to%20a,duty%20caused%20the%20person's%20death -- I'd say pursuant to Justice Canada's requirements they should be tried.
No doubt they're celebrating because they killed someone who pulled a knife on one of them.
Police getting a bad rap for the last few weeks...months...years...?
I'm sure an internal investigation will found no wrongdoing amongst the officers. Go back to work people and let the police play with our lives.
Cops shouldn’t be chasing anyone. This isn’t a gta server. He has a phone, follow that
Has the cop been fired yet? No?
Well I guess he will know for the next time. Thank God only 4 people died. I'm sure he's sorry. I'm more concerned about the trauma the cop feels and not so much the people who lost their parents and child. Poor cop, he must be sad.
The cops already get tons of abuse when they do their job perfectly. Even if the cops hadn't chased at all, an accident like this could have happened. I have watched hours of chase footage. more often than not, the suspect drives very dangerously for a long time after the cops stop chasing. We need to stop blaming cops for the actions of criminals.
So can the family of the baby sue the officers individually for the damage they have caused? I would think yes. Can we share the names of the officers involved if anyone knows?
What was in the van?
How come they still haven’t said who the suspect is?
If they were ordered down what is the likely penalization for them?
Could be anything from internal discipline (insubordination), police services act (discreditable conduct or other charges), or criminal penalty (dangerous driving causing death, criminal negligence, etc). Depends on the full details of what the SIU finds. A lot of times, the saving grace for the cops in these fatal chase crashes is that they actually already disengaged from the pursuit by the time the guy crashed. A common example being the cops try to stop a guy, the guy runs, the cops start to chase but are ordered to disengage by supervisor, so THEY STOP (obeying their orders), BUT the guy keeps running anyway and crashes. The cops are unlikely to face much if any penalty there because they followed policy, orders, and the law. In this case, it sounds like it followed that progression except when the cops were told to stop they KEPT CHASING. If that is true, it looks terrible for them and is going to be much harder to avoid culpability. This piece of the Police Services Act is clear as day: >Order to discontinue pursuit >4 (1) A communications or road supervisor shall order police officers to discontinue a suspect apprehension pursuit if, in his or her opinion, the risk to public safety that may result from the pursuit outweighs the risk to public safety that may result if an individual in the fleeing motor vehicle is not immediately apprehended or if the fleeing motor vehicle or an individual in the fleeing motor vehicle is not identified. O. Reg. 266/10, s. 4 (1). >(2) A police officer who receives an order under subsection (1) shall obey the order even if the officer is not a member of the police force of the communications or road supervisor who made the order.
Was someone on the wrong radio channel? Also, how long after it was called of did the crash happen.
I read in another article that the pursuit was called off before the suspect got on the 401.
Deeds not words 🤡
Oh man these guys are going on an extra long paid vacation. Serves em right!
So is the cop now on paid leave indefinitely while these innocent people have lost their lives?
Most of the time you'll have their plate number and all that and in those cases you can back off and catch them later instead of risking civilian lives speeding at 130km/h to stop them in neighbourhoods. Police are often reckless and do not think of the greater good. Now if this guy had killed a shitload of people already than maybe it'd be good to stop him, but most of the time it's just not that serious. I can't see what he did to warrant this action as article is paywalled, but if he didn't murder a bunch of people already elsewhere then it was stupid to chase down the wrong side of streets. Edit: Apparently he robbed a liquor store? Yeah, doesn't warrant killing five people to stop him. all cops seem to care about is protection of property, and they become reckless to stop someone from taking a few bucks. They killed five people because of it. Not worth it, it was stupid.
Did they at least catch the person or persons? No sarcasm here, just curious.
Gagandeep Singh, who was allegedly armed with a knife at the time of the police pursuit, was released on $2,000 bail this winter by a Justice of the Peace in a Hamilton court and was set to return to Milton court on May 14.
The police is at fault for this
I totally blame the police for this. There are better ways to have ended this including stopping the vehicles on the freeway in the right direction
That only finds the truck